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Christian Forums

Ryan, go to my userpage and send me an e-mail and include a return e-mail address. CyberAnth 07:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In the meantime, I have preserved the content of the page at User:Inigmatus/CF_Draft. I hope that is alright. CyberAnth 20:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Talk it up wikis

Feel free to post your comments below. Inigmatus July 1, 2005 22:48 (UTC)

NESARA (Surprise!)

Contrary, maybe, to appearances, I'm not advocating for the deletion of all the NESARA-related articles. I've enjoyed the discussion and although I do think that "Dr." Barnard was a crank and his idea is nutty I also think there's a place for that article in Misplaced Pages. I do believe it needs to be cut down by about 80-90%, and I may try to do that but I'll post my proposed revision here or on its talk page first for your thoughts. Sound ok? -EDM 6 July 2005 04:49 (UTC)

I'd love to see what you can do. I think the bill could use a better summary, and the "case for" and "against" could use some truncating. Thanks for your thoughts, I too have enjoyed the conversation; and I look forward to seeing what you can contribue to a sound resolution on the article. Inigmatus July 6, 2005 04:54 (UTC)

• I've put a draft revised article text on the article's Talk page. Thoughts? -EDM 6 July 2005 06:00 (UTC)

• • I like it. Go ahead and edit it with your proposed changes, as consensus has been reached. We should move for speedy keep once done, so the admins can remove the VfD notice. Inigmatus July 6, 2005 14:51 (UTC)

The Kings Tavern/Christian Forums

Nice work on the The Kings Tavern and Christian Forums articles. When I created the Christian Forums article, I had no idea of it's history (other than that it was founded by Erwin) and didn't know it had merged with Kings Tavern. I do remember the Left Behind Message board, and was disappointed when it was shut down, especially since Jerry Jenkins himself posted there. Anyway, keep up the good work! :-)

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Proposal: one-revert rule for each other's edits

Hi Inigmatus, I would like to propose that with regard to each other's edits, we honour the one revert rule in the future. It's not Misplaced Pages policy, but it would essentially mean that - starting from now - articles we both edit and have disagreements about could not change state without both of us agreeing.

One revert. If I change something and you don't like it, you can revert, and it then moves to the talk page. Similarly in the reverse case.

I think this might help us improve NESARA, at least.

RandomP 12:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Revision in the main namespace

Hi Inigmatus, I noticed your rewrite of Messianic Judaism under the title Messianic Judaism revision. As explained on Talk:Messianic Judaism, similar pages should not typically be in the main namespace. The only exception to this rule is when the original page is a copyright violation.

I have moved the page in question to User:Inigmatus/Messianic Judaism revision (a process known as userfication). I will leave a note to this effect on Talk:Messianic Judaism as well. JFW | T@lk 20:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is a copy of a message I left on the Messianic Jewish talk board:

Perspective

The whole perspective of how the article begins is wrong. Messianic Jews for the most part do not identify with Christianity. The article seems to be written from a Christian or Jewish anti-missionary perspective. Only one faction of Messianic Judaism uses Christian terminology and approach such as Jews for Jesus. (Some Messianic Jews even disagree with Jews for Jesus).

The original church was made up of only Jews, Messianic Jews. Christianity is a branch off it by the ministry of the apostle Paul. Today's Messianic Judaism sees itself as a revival of the original Messianic Judaism and its Hebraic roots, and not Christianity.

The article should be written from a Messianic Jewish perspective only to cite that a faction identifies with somewhat of a Christian identity and use of Christian terminology.

Thats my 2c worth... CowboyWisdom 16:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is a good resource link:

• Open Directory Project - Messianic Judaism

Messianic Judaism Revision Review

• I will most certainly review the proposed revision; I have a meeting in 40 minutes so I may not be able to get back to you promptly. I will say that the part I did get to read sounded great.

Should I have any concerns with anything I will certainly let you know. Sincerely, Rivka 15:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I have submitted a dispute case both at : Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-06-13 Messianic Judaism and Requests_for_mediation#Messianic_Judaism

CowboyWisdom 16:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

MJ Protection

Inigmatus, any idea as to why the page is still being protected? I put in a couple of requests for it to be unprotected and they suddenly disappeared after a night. Suffice it to say, nothing was unprotected. Rivka 14:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems that the lock has been removed from the MJ page. I could be wrong, but I went on there and saw no lock to speak of. What should we do now, post another vote on the talk page about using your revision as the article or...? Rivka 21:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

MJ Theology

I've got my first rough thoughts on my talk page. I think you'll find that I'm from a rather different segment of Messianic Judaism than the one you've documented. It's getting late, so please go easy. I expect that quite a bit more will need to be added.

I've deliberately not mentioned this in the MJ:talk page. It's too rough right now for that.

NathanZook 05:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's up now. Please have at it.

NathanZook 04:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Response noted, reply posted. I'm about to head to bed, so I'll probably check again Motze Shabbas. NathanZook 04:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's Motze Shabbas, then there's motze Motze MOTZE Shabbas. I'm needing a lot more energy for other matters than I thought. I gave a really short response on the theology rewrite proposal. I don't know when I might be ready to try to drive something like this again. Sorry. <<sigh>>

NathanZook 03:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

First Fruits of Zion

I just got through reading Restoration , so when I saw the FFOZ article I was interested. Do you plan to expand it more? --In ur base, killing ur dorfs 15:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Elaragirl, I have a big interest of FFOZ, the One Law Movement, and Grafted-In theology. I hope to add to these topics in the future. Jamie Guinn 16:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is this happening?

Well, I become extremely angry and upset when I see that I or someone else is unjustly treated. Inigmatus, these administrators are shameless bullies. They don't care about what's right, they only care about being seen as right! I've been blocked with no explanation from an edit war where PinchasC gave me no sufficient explanation; because he HAS NO REASON for doing it other than that he doesn't like me. It's absurd! Please avoid PinchasC; he acts like a gentleman but everything I ahve seen him do to me has proven that he is corrupt through and through. If you really wanted to help me, you'll revert edits for my sake in the future. Oh, and please report him for violating 3rr without any sort of reasonable discussion. 12.65.162.148 14:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Even when working with "corrupt" admins, the best method for conflict resolution is to always keep a cool head. 3RR was violated, and I will of course inquire about it, but even more importantly I have done the more appropriate thing and offered to open up your changes for discussion in Messianic Judaism talk. inigmatus 16:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You don't understand, they are selfish louts, raping my emotions and destorying my livelihood. I want to cut my eyeballs out. REVERT IT BACK TO MY VERSION, YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO JUDGE WHAT IS BETTER AND WORSE! 12.65.114.23 16:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You might be barking up the wrong tree. The reverts are to a version of the article that I myself drafted. I'd love to discuss them in Talk:Messianic Judaism, and I think you are free to post there. As such, I disagree with some of your changes personally, as I believe it adds unnecessary POV, but that is a debatable issue I'd like to engage you in the Talk page. inigmatus 16:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't engage you in the talk page; they blocked me and didn't explain why. They are an arrogant bunch of reactionary statists. You have no idea how much their administrative privelages here at WP have allowed them to trample innocent people they disagree with. I am tired of being beaten, destroyed, and my intellectual value sealed off. I am very seriously considering leaving this whitewashed facade that is a box of rotting corpses. What am I supposed to do after the 31-hour block expires? They'll just block me again.

P.S. about the 3RR: No, they didn't technically violate 3RR, but that isn't the issue. My problem is that they are inhumane, elitist bullies. They refuse to negotiate anything with me, even as I am incredibly patient with them and wish to negotiate. They don't tell me why they revert edits, why they block me, and why they won't talk to me about not talking to me. I feel that's a real weakness at WP: as long as you stay technically within a system of established arbitrary rules, no matter how much you exploit others, you're likely to get away with it (well, except for assuming good faith, they're horrendous with doing that for me). I am feeling extremely nervous and anxious right now, and it doesn't help me any more knowing how much I'm being trampled on by the people that are supposed to be maintaining justice here. The way they hide behind their brand of legalism is just driving me nuts. 12.64.6.114 19:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, they have finally done it to me. I am now blocked for two months, an impossibly long time to wait. I offer you, one of the few people I can trust and feel has some conscience at Misplaced Pages, a way to assist me. They will never unblock me regardless of how sickenengly unjust the premises are: WP is just not flexible enough and it's thought that the admins are always correct when in reality they often take their privelages to extreme levels of oppresiveness (as has been done to me). How you can assist me now is by me sending edits of a MJ article directly to you, perhaps me email, and you review and post personally. For example, please review my latest change to the MJ article, and revert to that version if you feel it is good. I refuse to illegitimately sockpuppet, so if you do not do this for me, my only choice is to leave Misplaced Pages permenantly and I can nearly guarantee you will never see or hear from me again. Thank you. 12.64.90.78 02:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have reviewed your changes to the article. I support some of them. I will be pursuing some of the changes in due time, as they make sense to me at least. It's the "Baby out with bathwater" principle - you had some stuff reverted that may not have been necessary to have been reverted. I'll see what I can do to salvage some of your edits. If you wish to contribute further though, please do not email me your contributions. I have enough work on my hands to do.

Please work with WP and the established guidelines. If you are banned, and if there is no other recourse for you personally to appeal, I'm sorry. I'm not here to start a revolution in WP admin policies. Not to preach, but I think humility is an outworking of the fruit of the Spirit, and with it, a lot of work on the articles can get done in this mindset. After all, it was with painstaking humility that allowed the article to get radically changed to what it is today from what it was a few months ago before the redraft. I know you have issues with particular editors and admins. I disagree with some of their behaviors as well, but I can not be an advocate for what I also believe is inappropriate behavior in your edit summaries and personal language. I'm sorry if you may disagree, but I just think it proper and right that I should hold fellow Messianics to a higher standard of behavior than that of even the most "kind" antimissionaries. If your banning prevents you from appealing, then I am sorry for that too. I would be upsetting the relative peace the article is enjoying now (as well as spending time on a personal issue when I could be spending time improving MJ articles) if I were to continue being an advocate on your behalf beyond this point, and that is where I stand for now. I empathize with your plight, but it's not my fight yet, especially when the Messianic representation in WP is so few, and your banning practically represents a third of the known regular Messianic editing team.

In closing, I encourage you to take that 2 month break. In fact, I encourage you to not even care about the article for two months, and instead focus on your own character development, before thinking about comming back. Perhaps when you return, God will have seen to the increase of the number of us, and the further improvement of the articles to the point where the antimissionaries themselves give up trying to silence the truth about Messianic Judaism. in the love of Yeshua, sincerely, inigmatus 07:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'd like you to know that I am an antimissionary; it's the fact that I don't believe that Messianic Judaism is a missionary effort in any way shape or form (other than the extreme protestant wing of it, which is dying and will disappear in short time), and that people who think it is a missionary effort are full-out wrong for believing that it is, that does me in. I think it can be agreed that at least 60% of my edits are of definite positive, factual, and nuetral value, while another 30% are of debatability, and perhaps a 10% negative, but that isn't good enough for the people here that constantly revert them. We know they have their own agenda when it comes to these things so we shouldn't try to conceal it to ourselves. I've known and embraced humility for a lifetime, but I am outspoken (Moshe was known to be of great humility, yet prone to great outrage, and Yeshua was in apparent and loud outrage at the underhanded money-changing going on in the Temple of Yerushaleim); it's the likes of PinchasC, Humus Sapiens, and MPerel that need to have their powers (but not their accounts!) stripped for two months just to instill an ounce of humility into them. About your "fruit of the Spirit" idea, I am not much for this tiny "charismatic" branch of MJ. The Ruach HaKodesh is simply such an esoteric and mysterious concept, and so little explanation as to what it IS in the Bible is given, that so much attention should not be due to such an immaterial concept. My edit summaries? I was unnecessarily rude, of course now I concur, but being rude is overtly apparent human error and maybe it is a little unpleasant, but it isn't truly evil and sinister as the Machevellianism the administrators represent. So I really don't even know if after 2 months I can possibly imagine where the project will be, or where I will be for the project; it is just too long for me, I don't know how to cope with it. I had a dream and a vision for the Messianic Judaism article and project, to make it a wonderfully structured, seamless, and accurate depiction of Messianic Judaism. Here is a small list of synagogues that I believe represents the pinnacle of maturity in Messianic Judaism. If the vast majority of Messianic Jewish synagogues followed the model of one of the following congregations, and stop talking about what G-d "just said", and ditched completely the two-house insanity, and the trinitarian invention, and rejected any ties to Jews for Jesus at all, and stopped calling their congregational leaders "pastors", and stopped compromising with the Protestantism whose very roots are utterly anti-semetic, I guarantee you that within that very week Messianic Judaism would never again be considered a missionary effort or not thoroughly a Judaism again by any large self-respecting Jewish organization, and would be from that point considered valid for aliyah, and almost every Rabbinic would say of MJ: "I don't agree with their views on the Messiah, but it's a Judaism", rather than "It's just Christianity painted up like Judaism / a missionary outreach". Examine:

Melech Yisrael: http://www.cmy.on.ca/index.htm

Beit Avanim Chaiot: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/beit_avanim_chaiot/

Beit Yeshua: http://www.beityeshua.org/first.html

Beth El: http://www.bethelnyc.org/index.asp

Simchat Torah: http://joyofthetorah.org/news.php

Shuvah Yisral: http://www.shuvah.com/

Avahat Zion http://www.ahavatzion.org/

Ohr Chadash http://www.ohrchadash.org/

Please reply 12.65.67.240 03:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The tiny Charismatic branch of Messianic Judaism is not foreign to the Master, for he himself would have ascribed to the charismatic branch of the Pharisees - those who cast out demons, performed miracles, raised the dead, etc. I believe he had a very healthy and very mature understanding of the Ruach, and so did his talmidim - and we should ascribe to be no different in this regard.

The two-house insanity, like any major doctrine, has some basis in reality; but the conclusions their theories bring people too are... well, distracting at best. As Messianic Jews our aim shouldn't primarily be our acceptance in the greater Jewish community, for it was the greater Jewish community that kicked out Messianic Judaism to begin with. Granted there is a LOT of work to be done to undo the damage of 2000 years of man-made, Church-invented traditions and theologies; but the primary goal of this work shouldn't be to make Messianic Judaism more palatable to segments of Judaism, but rather more palatable to God and his Truth, the Messiah, Yeshua. I believe if we make Yeshua-likness the central focus and primary aim of the Messianic movement, all else will follow: the Church will be drawn to the person of Yeshua as the living Truth (Torah), and nonbelieving Jews will be drawn to the Truth (Torah) in the person of Yeshua.

I encourage you to stick out the next two months. Good ideas don't die out in two months. inigmatus 05:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm a realist so I'm not betting my lunch money on it. One of the greatest hopes that Messianic Judaism has is to make the seven-point manifesto of http://www.hashivenu.org/ its practical creed, and generally to model all its synagogues after one the synagogual congregations I have listed above, as I believe these represent a pinnacle of theological and communal maturity in Messianic Judaism, elevating themselves above Protestantism, placing ephramite doctrine in the looney bin where it came from and belongs as it is racist and contradictory and thorougly un-Biblical (see http://www.cmy.on.ca/ephraim/ephraimite.htm), and exhibiting tremendously developed understandings of Jewish traditions and life, and the Messiah. Please examine at least a couple of these if you havn't. As for the Charismatic idea, I'm still not much for it. If you notice, in all the Jewish Scriptures, only the Messiah (Yeshua) was able to accomplish these so-called "charismatic" effects with any level of consistency. Not even Moshe or the Prophets were able to cregularly perform the eviction of demons, miracles, and certainly never raising of the dead, and the Prophets were people of incredible understanding of G-d and faith that we simply cannot approach today. Thus, using Hillelian ethics, if the Prophets could not perform these "charismatic" effects on any regular basis, and we cannot compare to the HaShem's Prophets in this age, HOW MUCH MORE SO does this then apply to the Moshiach, who is far above the Prophets and could? Let me just say it, Yeshua was able to do these things because he was the Moshaich, and they were a means to an end more than an end to a means. Yes, I'll probably be able to wait out the 2 mo. now that I think about it. But I'd like to continue to take to you every now and then here until that time, so that my heart will still be in it. When I come back, there can be no compromise. When I return, I will need YOU. I will need RIVKA. I will need that other person who joined the MJ project as well. We will need each other. We must stand by one another firmly and be outspoken. I must support your edits and you must support mine, making suggestions as to possible holes and improvements in the talk page but for the most part standing firmly in support. The administrators unfortunately aren't moved by the truth when it has no teeth, so we've got to show them the power of our voices. 12.64.114.101 01:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Another important source: the world's first and formost Sephardi Messianic Jewish synagogue: http://www.bethisraeltampa.org/. Please tell me what you think.

For your reference and use, I present a listing of simple and effective answers to eleven of the most common and misinformed accusations against Messianic Judaism.

- "Messianic Judaism is a disguised missionary effort": This is perhaps the most laughable and arrogant accusation perpetrated on MJ of all. Apparently someone doesn't like facts. READ some of the major MJ websites with a nuetral mind, even just for an hour, and you'll understand how wrong you are.

- "Messianic Judaism can't possibly be Judaism": Please, in that case, give me a definition of Judaism that is inclusive to all four of the main denominations (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist), and to make it easy you can even exclude Kabbalah, that is able to exclude Messianic Judaism and is not circular or absurdly arbitrary (I.E. "anything but Jesus").

- "There is no Judaism without Jews": Um, YEAH. Most MJs ARE ethnic Jews.

- "Trinitarianism is incompatible with Judaism": That's why MJs generally aren't trinitarians.

- "The Messiah is NOT G-d!": Which is why MJs generally believe that while the Mashiach, Yeshua, is divine, he is not G-d.

- "Even if he's the Messiah, the NT (Read: B'Rit Chadasha) is not a Jewish book": Really? A work, written excusively by observant Jews, about jews, and foremost for Jews, that teach against no portion of the Torah, or prior Jewish traditions, and focuses mainly on the central Jewish concept of Mashiach? You're being arbitrary.

- "But it's still not really commentary on the Torah, and that defines Jewish Scripture!": Crock. Case 1, over 1/3 of the TaNaKh is histical record, rather than any religious commentary. Case 2, MJs see one of the roles of the Mashiach as that of the "walking Torah" in effect (ultimate human exaple of it in practice and principal). Case 3, the Torah, Avraham, Yitzchak, Yaa'kov, Moshe, and the Nevi'im (Prophets) were all referred to positively and commanded to be ovserved hundreds of times in the B'Rit Chadasha (David Stern's wonderful translation, not the anti-semetic KJV or NIV, lets this shine), absolutely never contradicted / instructed against. Case 4, Yeshua HaMashaich only ever opposed Jewish Custom (Minhag) when it countered common sense (such as ritual washing of hands, which isn't related to any part of the Torah, or that it is entirely ok to save someone's life on the Shabbat, which eventually became universal halakha). Finally Case 5, in the mysterious work of Revelation, the work is properly categorized in the genre of Jewish mustical and eschatalogical literature, almost a fusion of Daniel and the Zohar with MJ concepts.

- "For over 1800 years, the vast majority of Jews have rejected this person as a possible Messiah": That's really irrelevant. What people THINK doesn't necessarily define what is true (even if those people are very wise, such as Maimonides, Akiva, etc.). Whether or not Yeshua of Netzereit is the Jewish Mashiach (as suffering servant of Israel) must be the first and last aspect of the debate on how Messianic Judaism should be classified.

- "You can practice some Jewish customs, the Torah, keep kosher and all the holidays, go to a Hebrew-siddur synagogue, and be an ethnic Jew and still be a Christian as these things are technically Biblical": First, do you realize that you practically just defined Judaism? Furthermore, synagogues, rabbis, and most of Jewish historical culture is NOT Biblical (except for its references of being practiced in the B'Rit Chadasha, such as Yeshua and talmidim celebrating Chanukkah, people teaching in the synagogues, or Rav Sha'ul the Pharasaic Rabbi), nor any of the "minor holidays" (such as Tisha B'Av or Chanukkah), or most minhag, is Biblical. Messianic Jews still observantly celebrate all these things because they are Jews that love Judaism!

- "OK, maybe you're right, but how is MJ NOT Christianity? Christianity by definition is believing that Yeshua is Messiah": It's been said that anything millions of people believe cannot ever really be classified in a single-sentence definition. Christianity has always been synonymous with several basic doctrines that are incompatible with any Judaism (including Messianic Judaism). These include a triune G-d, a G-d = human theology, supersessionism, an anti-semitic history, abolishment of the blessed Torah, a totally intermmediary view, seeing faith and tikkun olam (repairing the world through righteous works) as, unScripturally enough, mutually exclusive, and more. The vast majority of MJs don'e hold any of those beliefs, and disagreeing with Rabbinincs about the Messiah doesn't make it non-Judiasm.

- "How can you support these claims? Give me proof!": This is where you cue a list of Messianic Jewish links and examples of synagogues.

Please reply, and tell me if this is decent work. Thank you. 12.64.78.15 20:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Historical evidence for a Suffering Messiah in Judaism:

http://www.bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp

http://bethsar.com/10_Reasons.htm

A pleasure as always 12.64.54.144 00:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you reply to my comments anymore? I've taken enough b/s having every one of my edits to factually horrendous MJ articles reverted to last me for a lifetime at wikipedia. Please at least REPLY to my comments, to give me that comfort. Thanks. 12.65.66.168 20:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• I bookmarked the Sephardic MJ. They also run the only other MJ yeshiva that I know of. Your draft is decent work. Also, please keep my user talk page relevant to wikipedia issues. Thanks! If you want you can email me ryanfreedom at gmail for non wiki stuff. Thanks! inigmatus 06:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar!

		The Barnstar of High Culture
		For your dedicated contributions to WP:Messainic Judaism and related articles! In ur base, killing ur dorfs 14:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

New Boaz Michael article.

Inigmatus, I just created an article on Boaz Michael. Check it out, clean it up, and send your suggestions/comments my way. Jamie Guinn 17:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This might be distressing

I'm beginning to think the whole Messianic Judaism project is about to fall into the gutter. Please see the accuations lifted against you here at http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Jayjg#Messianics_again

Furthermore, the main MJ article is a meandering mess. The whole stupid thing is written from the extreme protestant wing of Messianic Judaism (which happens to be dying out the last I've seen). There are people considering the Boaz Michael and Rabbi Lichtenstein articles for deletion, without cause. People that don't know shit-for-all about Messianic Judaism go in and purposely make POV changes to articles, especially new ones. They add JfJ references everywhere, and have the audacity to plug Moishe Rosen. See the following case, with the new Rabbi Lichtenstein article: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Isaac_Lichtenstein&oldid=90515698 Make sure the rediculous reference to Rabbi lichtenstein being a "Christian" is properly referred to (and cited) as an early Messianic Jew. That's my first request.

My other request is for you to battle for the two above mentioned biography articles to be well-cited and not taken down, as both people are valid and important people in our Judaism, NOT vanity articles. Bring the Messianic Judaism article back to one that represents a center-point in the movement, not the leftover protestant theology of 10 or 20 years ago. And add Rabbis Bruce L. Cohen and Rabbi Dr. John Fischer to the Important Figures page, as both of them have contributed various books and position papers and are celebrities among the Messianic Jewish community. It would probably be best to add Rabbi Dan Cohn-Sherbock as well, not because he's a Messianic Jew (he's reform), but because he's written a couple of very important books about it. As well as Carol Harris-Shapiro, a reconstructionist Rabbi that has done the same thing.

Lastly, I ask why you lifted me from the members list on the project? Just because I'm temporarily blocked doesn't mean I lost interest in the project.

Reply swiftly, and thanks for your time. 12.64.24.20 01:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Zorkfan, I'm working on it. It's not the end of the world. Truth has nothing to be ashamed of, afraid of, or threatened by. If senseless opposition rears its head for any of these reasons, then the opposition is truly senseless as they don't have the truth. I have faith in the wikiprocess. Messianic Judaism will be a good test of that faith. I believe once people know the issues, people are smart enough to research more and decide for themselves. Misplaced Pages has no tolerance for obvious censorship.

I also removed you from the members list for the simple reason that it was Wikipolicy that removed your access, not specific users (although they may have forced the process to begin with). Also you keep using colorful language in your posts. This does not represent Messiah. As project leader, I have a responsibility to Messiah and NPOV - and that responsibility includes removing people from the members list who are not in good standing with the general wikipedia community; and removing those that I think carry the name of Messiah in a blasphemous way. This doesn't mean that your removal is permanent. Your removal from the list is only as long as you are banned from wikipedia. Once you return, we can deal with your use of colorful language then. Thanks for the heads up though on the recent activity in Messianic Judaism articles. I noticed it within an hour or so - I keep diligent, and yes, the articles have already been responded to by myself, and I've already notified the rest of the Messianic editing team to be on the alert. We dont need VfDs to go unchallenged if we think there is room for improvement. Shalom. inigmatus 04:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Please consider the suggestions I have proposed above while I am AWOL. As for the "colorful language"? I've always tried to keep it to a minimum, but how it's seen as "bad" is mostly societal. There's nothing Scriptural (or in the Talmud, for that matter) that says "thou shalt not say naughty words", but of I generally refrain from it anyway, natch. I have very little if any doubt that the cream will eventually rise to the top, friend. An attempt to expediate the process, unfortunately, sent me to the pen. But please make it something of a priority to effectively represent that a Jew-targeting evangelical Baptist ministry (JfJ) is not affiliated with a general Jewish synagogual movement (MJ). And please refrain from using terms such as "believer" in the future when referring to Messianic Jews, as the NPOV of such is questionable. Best Regards! ;) 12.65.114.243 01:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi there!!!

Thanks for the reply. Actually, I was thinking about talking privately but I see your email isn't turned on. MetsFan76 03:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok...I sent you an email. MetsFan76 03:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

3RR

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. ←Humus sapiens 03:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Messianic religious practice

There is no consensus for Halakha either, which is a disingenuous and improper term to use. "religious practice" is much better, and less POV, in light of the many Christian elements. -- Avi 04:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Messianic Jews actively call it halakha, and you're the only one in over a month to protest deeming it as such, and it was agreed upon by concensus as a matter of fact. I don't know what you mean by "many Christian elements", as MJ halakha is generally 90% Talmudic. Just because you don't like Messianic Judaism, gives you no free license to make it appear as falsely Protestant as possible on Misplaced Pages, sorry. No, no, and no. 12.65.162.119 04:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

3RR on Template:Messianic Judaism

Just reminding you that you are very close to a 3RR violation on the template. -- Avi 04:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Your next revert to that template places you in violation. I technically do not have any "reverts", as all of my edits were of different points as you piecemeal reverted my changes. Regardless, as a matter of good faith, I have not continued to edit the template with the knowledge that you cannot change anything. I would hope you would do the same. Placing an unnecessary warning on my talk page does not demonstrate that, I am afraid, but perhaps you did not look at the edit history to see whether they were edits or reverts (as yours were to a point prior to my initial edits). Oh well. -- Avi 05:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No input from Judaism editors.

You nominated/voted {{NotJudaism}} for speedy delete yet, without letting me the creator of it know about it, even as you were chatting with me, and that is not called a normal procedure. The only Judaism editor who picked it up voted to keep it. Your motivation to push the MJ line knows no bounds, why do you want to create false impressions that MJ talks for Judaism when it does not and this template would have obviated difficulties in this regard. The discussion will be opened again. IZAK 06:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I apologize. After years of service on wiki, it was my first VfD nomination. I think I even forgot to add a couple of bracket references according to policy as well. I know I made mistakes. Please forgive me. I'll remember to post on Talk first, before nominating VfD again. I would only expect the same in return. It's time for maariv now. Shalom. inigmatus 07:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You didn't tag the template for speedy deletion... but you TfDed it... others saw it as the T1 it was and speedied it. IZAK is right though in the sense that it is common courtesy to notify the creator. (→Netscott) 07:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whenever I nominate anything for deletion I always look at the history of it and I leave a message on the talk page of it's original creator and sometimes even on the talk page of others who have had more recent input (the various Misplaced Pages guidelines advise it.) By the way, who do you pray to when you go to ma'ariv? IZAK 07:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

We pray to G-d when we go to ma'ariv, and G-d only. We do not pray to any being of this world, whether he be the neighbor next door or the Mashiach (Yeshua), as this is idolitry and thus obviously against the Torah, Scriptures, and Talmud. Perhaps I should let Inigmatus speak for himself in this regard, but of course he shares this statement verbatum. 12.65.102.14 23:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I pray to HaShem. Don't you follow a siddur yourself? Who do you pray to? I use the Artscroll Sephard siddur. inigmatus 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: JFJ

I never said or implied that discussion would not be a good thing. However, it is clear that the tags are inappropriate. Further, I find it hard to believe that you would try to convince me that WP:3 has agreed with you when it obvious from the message that was left on the talk page that they disagreed with you with this statement-

"But since you can't ever prove a negative like "no Jewish organizations or denominations therefore consider it possible to profess Judaism and also believe in the divinity of Jesus", and especially because there are references that seem to make a good prima facie case for the truth of this statement, it's my opinion that those who contest this statement now have the burden of proof to make their case - e.g. by finding a non-minute Jewish organization that does consider it possible to believe this - before changing the statement.".

Anyways, while I would not characterize the addition of the tags as disruptive the first time you added them, I think that referring to your actions that way after the second time was indeed accurate.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well if you were in my shoes, you'd want to have someone actually discuss with you what you are disputing, before they go off and revert your dispute notice - or at least if they revert, that they at least make an effort to respond to the request for discussion. I only ask for the same treatment you'd want in regards to following wikipolicies. I'm all for working together and producing good NPOV articles that give readers information that they can decide for themselves. If you are too, awesome! I assume that you are. I look forward to working with you in the future. Shalom. inigmatus 07:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The Template

No doubt you have noticed that the once well-organized and nicely layn-out Messianic Judaism template has been butchered. If these people don't truly hate us, then we are at least definitely being religiously persecuted, and their changes are very POV. The following links should never have been removed, for very simple reasons, but they have been removed as an obvious and very malicious POV attack:

Sanhedrin: The Sanhedrin happen to be one of the most important parties in the Jerusalem Council, led by Rabbi Gamaliel, master of Rabbi Sha'ul ("Paul"). There is no reason to remove them, as their participation was key in the conclusions reached at the Jerusalem Council, which in turn is key to Messianic Jews.

Jewish Services: Messianic Jewish services, especially in the traditional wing, are borderline verbatum Rabbinic Jewish services in style and flow. Why then would you remove it from the template?

Prayers and Blessings: Jewish prayers and blessings are an intrinsic part of Messianic Jewish services at Messianic synagogues. Why would you remove them? They say the Aaronic benediction, bless the children of the congregation, and blow the shofar just like everyone else.

Mitzvot: Messianic Jews observe Torah. The 613 mitzvot comprise the entire body of the Torah's pracical instruction. Thus removing the link is a logical paradox.

Jewish Customs (Minhag): Messianic Jews generally exalt and praise traditional Jewish customs, and more often than that, they practice those said customs. No reason nor concensus for removal.

Jewish Texts Heading: They removed the Jewish texts link, completely disregarding the fact that religious texts written by Jews are generally the only actual ones that Messianic Jews study and consider religiously valuable. Again, an entirely POV edit.

Talmud: One of the most baseless and POV edits of all. The chutzpah. Other than the Jerusalem Council, the Talmud happens to be almost the only other source of halakha for Messianic Jews, and most Messianic Jews consider it either historically valuable, religiously preferable, or even binding and fully normative. There are very few Karaite Messianic Jews (when's the last time a MJ Rabbi taught against wearing a kipa, tying your tzitzit, affixing mezuzot, and praying in a minyan? That's what I thought.).

If these POV removals weren't bad enough, the template, which once had a very intricate quality in how it was organized (props on that, Inig), is now haphazard. You obviously are more inclined to work firmly within the Wiki-system than I am, Inigmatus, so I trust you will bring these issues to the table and stop the blatantly POV removal of those above links. Shalom. 12.65.102.14 00:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Zorkfan talk page

Hi Inigmatus, Zorkfan has agreed to editing restrictions as per here in which his block is reduced to 3 months and he is only to edit his own talk page at User talk:Zorkfan. He has requested that someone notify you and ask for you to put his talk page on your watchlist and check there so he can continue discussion with you. --MPerel 02:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The following is Zorkfan's message to you: "I am not allowed to make edits, even to your talk page. Please go to User_talk:Zorkfan each and every day to check if I left any messages for you. That will be my only way of communication with you, for the greater part of the next couple of months. Thanks, Inigmatus. ;)"

--MPerel 02:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Jews for Jesus Arbitration

There is a Request for Arbitration for the Jews for Jesus article. Please provide your inputs.ParadoxTom 03:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)