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Nope, I think you're right on. cheers, Jim Butler 08:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's parse this

Can we please parse the sentence below (in bold, presented in the second paragraph of the article) so it accurately reflects any relevant point intended to be made? I think the original intent (from around the time of Jon Awbrey's participation) was to state the obvious for the reader, which was, essentially, that someone calling someone else "a liar or a fool" usually results in a rejection of the label by the person being so called. ... Kenosis 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• The term pseudoscience appears to have been first used in 1843 as a combination of the Greek root pseudo, meaning false, and the Latin scientia, meaning knowledge or a field of knowledge. The term has negative connotations, because subjects so labeled are repudiated by skeptics and scientists as being inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science when in fact the subjects are not. Accordingly, those labeled as practicing or advocating a "pseudoscience" normally reject this classification. ... 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

-

I don't see what was wrong with the way it was written before. That is

"The term has negative connotations, because it indicates that subjects so labeled are inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science. Accordingly, those labeled as practicing or advocating a "pseudoscience" normally reject this classification."

This seems like a perfectly straightforward and important point made perfectly straightforwardly.Davkal 17:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It also avoids the words "skeptics and scientists" which are weaseling in the sense that they are used here. Taking them out would certainly uncomplicate the issue of which skeptics and how many scientists. --Dematt 19:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll be blunt: the sentence is shit. Hence I'm reverting it. It is grammatically wrong on several levels, and to ambiguous with the "skeptics and scientists" bit. •Jim62sch• 22:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You gone done and writed it good. -Jim Butler 01:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's roughly how this developed. About 2000 edits ago, the article looked like this. Then in March of this year, about 1800 edits ago, traffic picked up and a significant change was made here. Successive edits of importance to this part of the article's lead occurred here, here, here, and here. I made an adjustment here, which brought the relevant sentence to where it pretty much remained since. Several combinations of the clause that adherents "normally reject this classification" were tried along the way, such as "commonly dispute the claim", "almost always dispute the claim", "typically dispute this classification", "ordinarily reject the classification", etc., and it ended up being stable for about six months with the language quoted by Davkal above. ... Kenosis 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Scientific literacy: New minds for a changing world: Paul DeHart Hurd

Hurd's article is available on-line. I think the relevant quote from it is "A scientifically literate person is one who.....Distinguishes science from pseudo-science such as astrology, quackery, the occult and superstition." This is an indication of a rather liberal use of the term pseudoscience to include anything the writer thinks is stupid. Was it meant to include, as superstition, Christianity and other beliefs in the soul?Gleng 17:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Any other source for that article? I am unable to get access with the link provided. Sounds like an interesting point. --Dematt 19:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid someone will need to give up their username and password to access that citation (assuming it's not in violation of their user agreement with the website). Alternately, another method of access to this source will be needed. ... Kenosis 02:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as an IT Manager: Never, ever, give up your password (or uid if it is not your nick). Never. Not ever. •Jim62sch• 17:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like good advice; my apology. (I've obviously gotten too spoiled with options such as http://www.bugmenot.com . I also see that as a paid subscription, this would be a stretch of fair-use anyway.) Why not just quote the relevant passages or sections then? ... Kenosis 04:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

If someone wants to read a copy of the article, shoot me an e-mail and I'll send it to you. --ScienceApologist 17:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem in WP:AGF with your interpretation. What does he seem to say? --Dematt 03:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Got a copy! IMO, the article makes an argument for the integration of a "lived science into our school curriculums"(meaning things that students view as useful in their everyday lives - rather than just thereoms and useless facts). He makes the point that science has already changed to be useful by industry, etc., but schools have not kept up. He was assweting the position that schools should adapt there methods to create better scientific literacy. The section that SA and Gleng have referenced is:

"Behaviors associated with the production and utilization of science knowledge in human affairs represent the civic basis of scientific literacy. This perception is a blend of the revolutionary changes in the sciences with dimensions of our democracy, social progress, and the adaptive needs of human beings. The elements of a civic concept of scientific literacy represent a consciousness of behaviors that serve as guidelines for interpreting the functions of science/technology in human affairs and the management of one’s life. These behaviors also serve as guidelines for reinventing science curricula in grades K–12, which has been called for in the education reform movement. The following attributes are among others that enable students to adapt to the changing world of science and technology and its impact on personal, social, and economic affairs. Thus, a scientifically literate person is one who:

• Distinguishes experts from the uninformed.
• Distinguishes theory from dogma, and data from myth and folklore. *Recognizes that almost every fact of one’s life has been influenced in one way or another by science/technology.
• Knows that science in social contexts often has dimensions in political, judicial, ethical, and sometimes moral interpretations.
• Senses the ways in which scientific research is done and how the findings are validated.
• Uses science knowledge where appropriate in making life and social decisions, forming judgments, resolving problems, and taking action.
• Distinguishes science from pseudo-science such as astrology, quackery, the occult, and superstition.
• Recognizes the cumulative nature of science as an “endless frontier.”
• Recognizes scientific researchers as producers of knowledge and citizens as users of science knowledge.
• Recognizes gaps, risks, limits, and probabilities in making decisions involving a knowledge

of science or technology.

• Knows how to analyze and process information to generate knowledge that extends beyond

facts.

• Recognizes that science concepts, laws, and theories are not rigid but essentially have an

organic quality; they grow and develop; what is taught today may not have the same meaning tomorrow.

• Knows that science problems in personal and social contexts may have more than one “right”

answer, especially problems that involve ethical, judicial, and political actions.

• Recognizes when a cause and effect relationship cannot be drawn. Understands the importance

of research for its own sake as a product of a scientist’s curiosity.

• Recognizes that our global economy is largely influenced by advancements in science and technology.
• Recognizes when cultural, ethical, and moral issues are involved in resolving science–social problems.
• Recognizes when one does not have enough data to make a rational decision or form a reliable

judgment.

• Distinguishes evidence from propaganda, fact from fiction, sense from nonsense, and knowledge from opinion.
• Views science–social and personal–civic problems as requiring a synthesis of knowledge from different fields including natural and social sciences.
• Recognizes there is much not known in a science field and that the most significant discovery may be announced tomorrow.
• Recognizes that scientific literacy is a process of acquiring, analyzing, synthesizing, coding, evaluating, and utilizing achievements in science and technology in human and social contexts.
• Recognizes the symbiotic relationships between science and technology and between science, technology, and human affairs.
• Recognizes the everyday reality of ways in which science and technology serve human adaptive capacities, and enriches one’s capital.
• Recognizes that science–social problems are generally resolved by collaborative rather than individual action.
• Recognizes that the immediate solution of a science–social problem may create a related problem later.
• Recognizes that short- and long-term solutions to a problem may not have the same answer.

These science literacy characteristics are not taught directly but are embedded in a lived curriculum where students are engaged in resolving problems, making investigations, or developing projects. Supporting laboratory and field experiences are viewed as exercises in citizenship. As teachers we need to recognize constantly that public understanding of science is conceptually different from the traditional forms embedded in the structure of science disciplines." --Dematt 18:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fine and good, but the edit you put in seriously disrupted the explanation of the context which is why the source is offered. It is clear that Hurd is advocating for scientific literacy in part as a repudiation of pseudoscience. Trying to say what Hurd's main purpose of the paper is incidental to this point. --ScienceApologist 22:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see where I muddied the water? I agree that Hurd was advocating scientific literacy as a repudiation of pseudoscience. All I did was clarify that it was not a research paper and added the occult. The entire paragraph concerned science education, Hurd fit right in. What was the muddy part? --Dematt 22:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It was a summary of ideas based on research, the paper itself was a review. Adding the occult is unnecessary as it is covered by superstition. Your edit just made the sentence nearly impossible to understand within the context of the introduction and the paragraph. --ScienceApologist 23:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Still, "According to science education research" is overreaching. It makes it sound like there is consensus among scientists and science educators about the meaning of the term "pseudoscience". Perhaps this is an improvement. (I have a graduate degree in chemistry and don't recall ever hearing the term used by my teachers. We talked about stuff like evidence and reasoning instead.) thx, Jim Butler 00:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you're on the right track. --Dematt 01:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks and a clarification: I don't mean to give aid and comfort to those whom I think really are attempting to subvert science and reason a la wedge strategy. (That would be sort of analogous to tolerance taken too far, i.e. tolerating intolerance itself.) In general, my primary quibble with SA's otherwise perfectly fine line of thinking is that pedagogically, it appears easier to find consensus on what science is than what pseudoscience is.

Also, as I've argued before, labelling topics in psychology and medicine as pseudoscience is hazardous territory given the complexity of the variables one must measure. Too often the "conclusions" section of a paper overreaches the "evidence" section, as when failure to replicate a phenomenon is taken to "disprove" that phenomenon (e.g., facilitated communication, where the majority/doubting view has used the dreaded PS-term mostly as an epithet). Excellent article relating to these issues from Harvard Prof. Martha Herbert here. Parsing such nuances requires unrelenting intellectual honesty and rigor. (/soapbox) cheers, Jim Butler 08:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Citing accurately

Because the word PS can be used either indiscriminately (as a pejorative) or with attempted precision (as Popper attempted), and in mutually inconsistent ways, it seems important to be precise in citation. Hurd uses the word PS to embrace, specifically, the occult, superstition and quackery, and not to make that clear would be to miscite him, particularly because elsewhere in the present article it is clear that a precise use of the term pseudoscience would exclude all of these -and to include the Occult as pseudoscience would probably entail including all religion. The Occult is a necessary inclusion in any cite, as this makes clear that Hurd is embracing religious beliefs as pseudoscience. This is Hurd's only use of the word, to stretch his meaning beyond what he said would be a speculative inference.

In psychology, as in all fields of science, the word pseudoscientific is part of the armamentorium of internal criticism (though seldom in the peer reviewed scientific literature, which generally prefers terms with operational definitions); the holder of one position may say that an alternative is pseudoscientific, meaning variously that the terms are ill defined, or the position is logically unsound, or that the argument is irremedially obscure. Sometimes this is a "straw man" position to delineate the conflicts, sometimes a serious criticism - but just as Medawar declared with rigor and vigor that every scientific paper is a fraud, there is little sense in treating arguments within a field as though they were somehow criticisms of the field, for intelligible external consumption. However, psychology is relevant for one good reason - it was chosen as one of the three canonical examples of unfalsifiable theories by Popper, who was the first to attempt a rigorous use of PS. The University of Maryland curriculum by the way uses PS in the title but the description makes no further use of it.

How any of these arguments can give comfort to those who choose to believe nonsense is beyond me. If nonsense cannot be countered by cool rigor, careful analysis, and clear thinking, but needs to be branded by emotive labels with no intellectual content, then maybe it's not nonsense after all.Gleng 10:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Gleng, the problem with your edit is that in attempting to mitigate the use of the term "pseudoscience", you introduced a slant that claims that pseudoscience is poorly considered. While you submit that there is no definition of pseudoscience that is adequate, this quibble has no bearing on the sentences you editted. There is plenty of text elsewhere in the article which deals with this, but you failed to take the cites at their word which is that they are discussing the perils of pseudoscience. Trying to argue against these cites in the fashion you did by saying that they are somehow not giving good enough definitions for what they are fighting against is injecting original research. --ScienceApologist 13:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

? How can using the author's own words instead ogf yours be injecting my POV exactly? This is the only use of the term in the article, and at least we should respect the possibility that the author meant exactly what he said. I think it is OR to go beyond that and infer that the author actually meant more than he said. Gleng 16:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I hate to butt in here where I haven't been following the current history of the debate, but using precise quotes is often the best way to avoid accusations of OR and POV editing. When properly sourced, the case stands stronger. FWIW. -- Fyslee 16:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see I wasn't the only one confused by that. --Dematt 17:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Precise quotes are not a good idea for lead. And the selection of precise quotes detracted from the main point of the sentence (which is to say that pseudoscience is to be eschewed in order to gain scientific literacy). Insisting on including the quote because it illustrates the author's definition of pseudoscience is beyond the scope of the article and the reason the quote was included in the first place. Such an analysis would be better placed in an article about the person himself. --ScienceApologist 18:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It may well be that trying to cover science education is a bit too much for the lead. ... Kenosis 19:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Precise quotes are better than misquotes; it's only a few words, but their importance seems as clear to SA as to me. I agree with Kenosis; in the UK, science education here focuses on distinguishing good science from bad science, - the reasons not the labels, but I accept it may be different elsewhere. Hurd's inclusion of the occult is telling; where a word can be used to mean different things it seems important to be clear about how it is being used in any report of its use. In particular, it's important to distinguish between the scientific/philosophical issues and populist usage. It may well be appropriate to adopt a populist (pejorative) usage in an introductory science class; but unless the usage is distinguished the serious issues will get muddled. A "scientific" rather than a "pseudoscientific" use of the term requires an operational definition, or it becomes a mere label of distaste. I have a distaste for pseudoscientific arguments of all kinds, as I imagine everyone on this page does, but labels don't do the work of reason for us.Gleng 19:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree re the quotes, but I also agree with Kenosis. When I go to a restaurant I want a drink first, not a roast suckling pig slapped on the table. •Jim62sch• 23:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, drink... pig.... definitely drink. I say drink. --Dematt 01:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Pig... drink.... perhaps a compromise is possible? Seriously, yeah, agree w/ paring the lead a bit and covering more below. -Jim Butler 06:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. - meant to add, agree w/ Gleng above re operational definitions. - Jim Butler 17:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So, per the Pork Soda method, 1) put pig in a big blender, 2) empty contents into large vessel, 3) put into centrifuge to sort out bones, intestines, etc., 4) boil contents so no one gets sick, 5) add seasoning so no one throws up from the taste, 6) carbonate; makes 100 eight-ounce servings ... maybe this analogy has reached its practical limit of utility? Actually, in my comment above, I was mainly just wondering whether recent discussion of "pseudoscience" in science education might deserve a separate section in the article rather than attempting to deal with controversial pedagogy in the introduction. In the last half of the 20th Century, in general, scientific method is taught in keeping with whatever the discipline is, while pseudoscience is merely acknowledged as one form of the category of non-science without further qualification in the texts. In general, it hasn't been the educator's job to teach students what pseudoscience is, but rather to stick to teaching students appropriate method in their particular discipline--chemists learn one set of methods, biologists another, phsyicists another, experimental psychologists yet another, each of which is currently accepted in their own area of inquiry based on past successes. And it's left to "philosophers of science" to integrate it all, if they think they can. And as we already know, philosophers of science have been unsuccessful in attempts to arrive at a clear solution to the demarcation problem; though the AAAS has made nice progress in developing guidelines in recent years. So to whatever extent the term "pseudoscience" may be used in any of the recent texts on method, it is relatively very new. Maybe a brief section in the article on recent trends in science education involving the use of the word "pseudoscience" might be appropriate? ... Kenosis 17:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Now we're getting to the marrow of the matter (porcine metaphor exhausted?). Yes, Kenosis, agree with your ideas; cult has some good approaches on presenting POV's. best regards, Jim Butler 17:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

That would certainly make sense and set the stage for the rational debate of the issues. --Dematt 19:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Norcross

Let's discuss this before adding it. This is what I found... no clear mention of Pseudoscience.

A new study surveyed psychologists and other mental health professionals about their knowledge and views on whether certain treatments have been discredited, and the results are provocative. The subjects rated 59 treatments and 30 assessment techniques on a continuum from "not at all discredited" to "certainly discredited."

The upper tier of discredited treatments included Angel, Orgone, Rebirthing, and Primal Scream therapies. Some techniques that fell into the mid-range included Freudian dream interpretation, catharsis for anger disorders, Scared Straight programs for criminal offenders, and DARE programs for substance-abuse prevention. The bottom tier, which represents more credible treatments included EMDR, behavioral therapy for sex offenders, and psychosocial treatment of ADHD. The most discredited assessments included Graphology, the Szondi test, and the Luscher Color Test for personality.

The authors made sure to note that all of this should interpreted with caution since it is simply an exploratory analysis and that many subjects were not familiar with details of each treatment. However, this does provide fasinating documentation about the status of varoius therapies and treatment approaches in the field, and ideally consumers can gain access to this sort of information to guide therapeutic decision making.

Norcross, Koocher, & Garofalo (2006). Discredited psychological treatments and tests: A Delphi poll. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 37(5), 515-522.

I just don't think qualifies a s agood source of what is a pseudoscience, especially with the author warning to be cautious when interpreting this study. Any other toughts here? Levine2112 06:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112. The whole article is about pseudoscience. They listed 59 or so theories that have been identified by other peer reviewed sources as pseudoscientific, and then they determined using a rigorous empirically sound poll which ones were definitely discredited. Similar to other peer reviewed literature on similar subjects, they use the terms quackery, and pseudoscience. So Gleng, yourself, or anyone else who keeps badgering for a dismissal of those terms or articles has just bit the dust on that argument yet again. Levine2112, contrary to your statements, you have clearly not read the article. You have also not clearly read NPOV policy. Look under the heading - a simple formulation. This article is a survey - published in a peer reviewed journal, published by eminent profs. It will inevitably be included in this article. KrishnaVindaloo 06:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoa. Take it easy. This isn't a personal attack, so don't turn it on me like that. This is the kind of thing that got you in trouble last time. I am questioning the edit and not the editor, so please don't make this personal.

Now then... no, I haven't read the article. Nor did I claim to. I did find a summary which doesn't mention Pseudoscience. It also mentions a tier system which I think is important.

Can you provide us a link to the article? This way I and others can read it. And/or can you provide us with a direct quote from this source which uses the term pseudoscience so we can see how it is being used... since that is most operative to this article.

And if we decide to reintroduce this, can you please try to be consistent and match the ref footnote method that everyone else has employed here? Thanks again and please don't take this personally. Stay calm and let's discuss this rationally and cooperatively. Levine2112 07:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I found an abstract for this: Note that this study is not about labeling things as pseudoscientific but rather to discredit/credit the value of certain therapies in terms of mental health. I really think it is a stretch to include this here. However, please feel free to defend it being here in an article that is about Pseudoscience. Levine2112 07:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Norcross on page 515 says that several authors have attempted to identify pseudoscientific psychotherapies. They site Lilienfeld, Carroll, Sala, Eisner, and Singer. Norcross then says that this present study is an addition to that effort. Of course pseudoscientific and discredited are the same in Norcross et al's judgment in this respect. In the conclusion of the study - page 522, Norcross et al state that "We have made progress in diferrentiating science from pseudoscience". They also say they have made a cogent step in identifying the quack factor of modern mental health practice. Its crystal clear that the article concludes that those 14 listed are very very pseudoscientific. This PS article could do with some information on the issue of the relationship between what is considered pseudoscientific (has PS aspects), and what is considered most definitely discredited. The Norcross article is perfect for this PS article. KrishnaVindaloo 08:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a reference for us to click so we can read this for ourselves. -- Fyslee 14:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Fyslee. The ref is in the ref section under Norcross. You will not have much luck clicking on it as it is not linked to anything. Its a fresh reference and it corroborates many of the scientific editors on Misplaced Pages when we say that sources such as Lilienfeld, Carroll, Quackwatch, Mind Myths, etc, are all about identifying pseudoscience when they say something is dubious, quackery, or discredited. KrishnaVindaloo 14:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)