Talk:September 11 attacks - Misplaced Pages

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Please remember -- this talk page is for discussing the mechanics of the article (what to include, how to include it) only and not a place to discuss the events of 9/11 Sdedeo (tips) 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

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NPOV CLaims

I created the below and hopefully this can be filled and dicussed by everyone, if noone brings forth sections then I guess its obvious that there are no POV concerns. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 21:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

NuclearUmpf, you're free to join in the discussion, but this ridiclousness about facilitating has got to stop. You can't come in here defending blatant violations of Misplaced Pages rules and then pretend to be a facilitaror in this. Se my reiteration of claims below. If you want to play this role, you can start by adding a POV template to the article. --Cplot 22:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry what did I defend? You make an accusation back it up please. Your claims arent specific and as usual they will be ignored because of that, you want to make a case, then make a good one, not general blanket statements. I was attempting to help you, however you want to continue to make blanket statements that will get ignored cause they are not addressing anything, fine with me, complain to your hearts content. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 22:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Claims of POV

This section is for editors to bring forth their claims of POV parts in the article for examination by the editing community. Please post a quote of what you feel is POV, then explain your reason afterwards.

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Discussion

Since the section will be numbered, please do not post up there any rebuttals and instead post them in this section below. Please stick to the format given. Thank you.

Dispute against 1.

(Reasons)

Dispute against 2.

(Reasons)

Substatntive discussion of the article

There have been many substantive discussion of the article. Here's a few examples from above.

I have brought up specifics before. See:

Typically we get the usual suspects (I call them the US for short), claimming nothing has been said. Then we request an POV tag and the US say why don't you just request a POV tag. This is a silly game. NuclearUmpf, if you really came to provide some reasoned independent analysis, you would have made sure the POV template was added rather than altering your remarks when you realized not even that minimal step has been taken.

Summaries are not quite enough. A task list is an easy thing to write but then you need to address each bullet point. If you pull one item out to focus on it becomes much easier to discuss it with others. --PTR 22:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to start with those. As one can see from reading the debate that's gone on here for quite some time, whenever someon raises changing the article from a Bush administration press release into an encylopedia article they're told things like "it's not going to happen". It's alot of work to compose encylopedic content then to find out that federal authorities won't the topic into the article. If we could come to an agreement over what the feds will accept, then we can better understand where to focus on drafting more detailed material. I think the list of POV problems and the sources needed to correct them are a good starting point for the conversation. --Cplot 22:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I am more convinced than ever that you are right...surely the illuminati/"feds"/Reptilian master race are in control of what goes on in this article...I wish I had noticed this sooner.--MONGO 22:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Cplot: In your reworkings part, you rejected all efforts of discussion of what to do without explanation. In your examples part, all the points you took up has been answered one by one. That discussion is finished. You did not succeed in pointing out either any poart of the article that was POV or discuss any improvement of the article. --Regebro 00:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Identifiable issues

There seems to be a movement away from discussion of NPOV to borderline personal attacks. The focus should be on actual disputes. I think what the dissenters are trying to say is:

. (Sources used) That the 9/11 Commission report is an inherently non-NPOV source, and that reliance on it compromises the article. The counter-argument would be that, while that particular source is open to criticism, only those findings which have been independently corroborated have been used. The article does not rely on any one source, and therefore the suitability of that source cannot compromise the entire article.

* Comment It's not the 9/11 commission report per se, it's that no independent (independent of the Bush Whitehouse) sources have been allowed. --Cplot 22:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Independent sources are both allowed and used. --Regebro 00:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

. (Sources not used) That narratives supporting conspiracy theories should be given equal weight and editors should refrain from making judgments about the suitability of sources, even those that are demonstrably misinformed or misleading. The counter-argument is that the undue weight rule implies giving priority to verifiable opinions of experts, in particular with respect to technical questions not suited to intuition or analysis by amateurs.

* Comment I do not support conspiracy theories. I have called for the removal of the section on conspiracy theories because they are not notable enough to include. What I have called for is the inclusion of analysesindependent of the Bush Whitehouse be included in the article, even if it makes George sad. --Cplot 22:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If you have any independant verifiable factual analysis made by reliable sources, then go ahead. You sure haven't mentioned any so far. --Regebro 00:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this needs to be narrowed down to specific issues that, hopefully, can be discussed rationally. Peter Grey 22:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

See the specific issues just raised. Oh, yeah your just pretending you don't see them. --Cplot 22:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

What specific issues are you talking about? Where shall we reference these issues that are different than the "Whitehouse" version that may make Bush sad? What are these specific pieces of information and where are we to read about them?--MONGO 22:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't imagine a worse NPOV violation than putting everything into George Bush's frame of reference (even ignoring his disconnect from reality). Peter Grey 22:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I couldnt either though I dont see that happening in the article, what non white house sources are not being permitted that pass WP:RS and WP:V? I am not really sure what the complaint is about as it doesnt reference section just blanket ideas without showing where that situation is occuring. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 22:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

These:

This, in other words? Peter Grey 03:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You want us to put in a section about what people "think" happened...ie:polls? Then you want us to add a list of conspiracy theory books to the article?--MONGO 22:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested edit again

Please add the {{POV}} template to the top of the article. The preceding discussion demontrates a clear dispute over NPOV problems. --Cplot 22:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, you havent given a single example and instead just make blanket statements, people are requesting more information, please give it. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 22:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be good to have some specific paragraphs currently in the article you would like to rewrite and how you would like to rewrite them and why. I know you believe it is not NPOV but which is your goal; to have it tagged with the dispute tag or to fix the article? Besides, I need something to think about while I'm playing shuffleboard. --PTR 22:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Fellows, if you won't to ponder upon reasons of dispute go through history, everything is well documented and since any decent proposal or draft is time consuming you should understand that this constant spinning is as boring as tiresome… Fact is, well intended edits are often reverted without valid reasons, discussions are either disrupted or left without conclusion, newcomers are discouraged, article is locked all the time due to vandalism (just a desperate form of dissent in this case) and so on… Whether we talk about references or particular sections, current form of article is useless. One has to wonder how are we to agree about serious issues if all this blistering blabbering about placing and recognizing appropriate tag is addressed in same old hear no evil, see no evil manner… Lovelight 23:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Good then this editor can take a few seconds to copy and paste and we can all discuss, if they do not care enough to take the time, then surely you cannot expect us to care enough to take the time. If this is a serious issue, then present it seriously, dont tell people you have a problem, and they should go fetch the reasons. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 23:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There is not a dispute just because somebody sais there is a dispute. You have to be able to point out at least some things that you are actually disputing. After repeated requests, all you guys come up with are claims that there is a lot of claims. This kind of argument is circular and pointless. A claim does not magically poof into existance because you claim it exists. A NPOV dispute does not magically appear because you claim there is an NPOV dispute.

This discussion has the last few days NOT been about what in the article would be POV, instead it it was a couple of days ago about whether the article is POV as a whole. These last 24 hours your refusal to explain what it wrong with the article, now means that the dispute is whether there is a dispute or not. Soon we are starting to dispute whether you there is a dispute about the dispute.

Please stop this ridicoulous insanity. Either you come up with real actual complaints about how and where the article would be POV, or you just give up. Or, more shortly: Put up or shut up. ;) I see Cplot is trying that. Thanks. You others should join too. --Regebro 00:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's have yet another quick glance at that balance, what did we have recently…? For example, whether MONGO, or Tom, or Peter, or Aude… like such pieces as Press for Truth or not should not be an issue here. Such sources are relevant, well related and should be referenced in the article. How come that u are so eager to present Path to 911 (with all that controversy and petitioning behind it), while refusing other, well researched and acknowledged take of events. Or that nonsense in War on Terrorism section? How irrational it is to read that screenplay in which first and foremost military action is missing. What is that? Fog of War? What kind of construction is that, and what exactly that section implies? Why shouldn’t Iraq be clearly mentioned, would it be too inconvenient? Honestly, I don’t understand such out of the touch with reality approach? Official rhetoric's which linked Iraq to 911 is common knowledge after all… and such slight improvements or accuracies certainly wont hurt the stability of building 7 or any other, more concerning issues… we have a very poor terminology here, so there's no wonder that we have hard time dissolving truth from conspiracy. Let me illustrate, there are (mainstream) reports about living dead (hijackers), are we to consider these as notable reports or conspiracy? There is this well documented foreknowledge of clear and present danger, there are those convenient war games which are nowhere to be noticed, there are related testimonies of Rice, Mineta, Clarke and so on… We already had examples, and we already had our share of disputes. Before engaging in another detailed representation I would like some reassurance that such discussions wont end with puzzling answers as Aude's: "perhaps later"??? Appropriate POV tag would be one such reassurance… Lovelight 00:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What does Iraq have to do with the 9/11 attacks at the time of them happening, the Iraq section should say that it was part of the WOT at most, which sprang from 9/11. As for living dead hijackers, you do realize that is because of stolen passports right? faked identities, and people with the same name as well as the rush to identify, none of the identified hijackers as of today are living, unless you count the silly supermarket tape of Atta. I think the problem is that you think conspiracy theories deserve as much weight as the actual events, which isnt the case here. The principle that would govern this situation calls for conspiracy theories to take up very little as they represent very little of the actual situation. Also sources have to pass WP:RS and WP:V if you feel certain sources are being removed that belong, then please present them on the talk page and let everyone chime in. I am a big representer of WP:RS and WP:V and citations. Instead of long rants like ago, try to coherently organize your points for people to read and reply to. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 01:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"What does Iraq have to do with the 9/11 attacks at the time of them happening, the Iraq section should say that it was part of the WOT at most, which sprang from 9/11."

Actually, there is no section about Iraq… and yes, that's exactly my point.., nothing more, nothing less… it is disturbing to go through purgatory for such small additions that’s all… as for your question, on 911 Rumsfeld said: "Go massive. Sweep it all up. Things related and not. He also said: "Judge whether good enough hit S.H." (Saddam Hussein)… you know, from my perspective that whole "Shock & Awe" shebang is disgusting… and I tend to be disturbed with such crap, especially since that man still (freely) slithers around… Anyway I've presented that case decently, and since its common knowledge pushing it out of the article just shows the need for that POV tag, doesn’t it? Lovelight 13:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"As for living dead hijackers, you do realize that is because of stolen passports right? faked identities, and people with the same name as well as the rush to identify, none of the identified hijackers as of today are living, unless you count the silly supermarket tape of Atta."

That issue is still far from clear. I'd say that it is as interesting as those crash-proof passports... Lovelight 13:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"I think the problem is that you think conspiracy theories deserve as much weight as the actual events, which isnt the case here. The principle that would govern this situation calls for conspiracy theories to take up very little as they represent very little of the actual situation."

I'm afraid that this is not about conspiracy theories at all, IMO such subjects as CD or Pentagon lawn should rest for a while (I've never pushed those issues you know? There is no need to get the dirt on the hand, that final appendix to NIST and Omission reports (about building 7) should come early next year, I'd bet it will be the most amusing and most ridiculous of em all;)… things as government foreknowledge of attacks or basic description of Vigilant Guardian, Vigilant Warrior, Northern Guardian, Northern Vigilance drills would seem like priority, since we speak of factual, verifiable and relevant data there. Expending Commission section with brief summary of criticism would also push article towards NPOV… Mentioning insider trading before 911 is verifiable, and therefore out of that mystic realm of conspiracy… (Missing) 911/Iraq link served as a turning point for invasion, and it seems pretty important to me… How about Bush's whereabouts on that day? Such fine "trivia" for domestic response section… Great leader of great nation reading fairytales to little children at countries most desperate hour, timeless performance isn’t it? …all I'm saying, we should point such things instead of neglecting them, if you are interested in well rounded resources and references about things mentioned (or not), you'll certainly find some fun (WP:RS and WP:V)here or there. Lovelight 13:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"Also sources have to pass WP:RS and WP:V if you feel certain sources are being removed that belong, then please present them on the talk page and let everyone chime in. I am a big representer of WP:RS and WP:V and citations. Instead of long rants like ago, try to coherently organize your points for people to read and reply to."

Unfortunately more elaborate (proper) draft from my part will have to wait for a while, but I'm sure that other editors will be as busy as ever… however, we could certainly resolve that Iraq issue since it does belong in WOT section, as a matter of fact I believe that Peter, Aude and some of the other hardliners did recognize flaw there, for a moment I even thought we'll agree on such obviously missing "missing link"… but it ended as it always ends, they were just a bit too reluctant because their patriotic spirit clouded their judgment and now they prefer to lye or to keep silent consent instead of seeking and stating factual truth. Lovelight 13:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you seem to comment on what I wrote, but I can't see how what you wrote in any major way comments what I wrote. It seems to just be incoherent ramblings to me, sorry. Can you clarify? --Regebro 01:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No need for apologies, since it wasn’t intended for you, it was for those people who "care enough to take the time." Lovelight 01:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You indentation makes it unclear of who you respond to, but accusing people of not caring is Ad hominem and not a serious argument. Most of you POV guys have reverted to attacks or other ad hominem arguments during the last 24 hours. I assume this is because you have run out of real arguments and need to vent your frustration. I can understand this, but that does mean that this dispute is for all intents and purposes over. After repeated requests, you who claim the article is POV, can not point out one single thing that is POV and not come up with one single source that meets Wikipedias requirements that you find missing. Honestly guys, isn't it time you resign this and just accept that NPOV does not mean that the article reflects your POV? --Regebro 08:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've haven’t seen a decent (or discussion related) post from you yet… every disputed page got its own little smoke bomb to cloud the issues and spit ad hoc nonsense… you are as good as any… what doest such reply make me homine? Lupus? This page has "long and proud tradition" of disputes, you cannot just parachute in, history of talk page is well documented, any unbiased editor or administrator will recognize what's wrong here at the first glance… which kind of editor are you? Lovelight 13:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Clowns

Someone has suggested that the article is run by what Misplaced Pages I think calls clowns (if I'm using the right term). It might be better for others to just avoid the discussion here for a while and look to draft a rewrite of the entire article elsewhere. It does no on eany good to engage here where they seek to bait people into 3rr violations or personal attacks. Obviously they're just playing games here. We can return later and fix the article. --Cplot 22:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPA, trying be civil please. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 23:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This has got to be the nth time someone has suggested I'm being uncivil of violating NPA for using the term clowns. Am I using the term wrong? Who am I attacking? --Cplot 23:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should take the advice. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 23:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to take the advice. I do not understand who I'm attacking. Just tell me who this could possibly be attacking personally and I"ll apologize profussely. I thought I was just using a common wiki word. --Cplot 23:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

That part of the wiki lingo. I've heard it used before. It's not a personal attack. I think it might be an acronym, but I'm not sure. --70.8.56.126 00:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Funny that nobody else ever heard about that then, wince Cplot admits he gets accused of attacks when he uses it. ;) Cplot: It's quite clear that when you claim the article is "run" by "clowns" that are "playing games", you are talking about persons and you are not exactly praising them. So it IS ad hominem. I think you understand this too. You can't return later and fix it, because the article ain't broken. --Regebro 01:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's a leap in logic if I ever saw one. Someone who works for the feds to fuck over Misplaced Pages is not likely a person. And personal attacks have to be directed at a person. There has to be a victim. You can't just charge someone with murder if there's no murder victim (though I suppose your superiors are working on that). If there's no personal attacked then it's not a personal attack. --70.8.56.126 02:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Federal authorities should definitely not contribute to this article

Just to make sure we're clear on that. Some of you are trying to argue that it's ok. It's not. --70.8.151.103 21:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, it surely is. Since Federal Authorities were not responcible for the attacks like some believe but never prove, its perfectly fine for someone who works for a federal position to edit the article as long as they do it according to guidelines and policies. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 21:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You are way off base here. The accusations that are being made here about federal authorities working in official capacity to alter wikipedia iw inappropriate on so many levels. And besides that the spreading perception is that they're not even playing fair with the rules besides that.

Again, anyone can contribute as long as they follow the rules. Tom Harrison 22:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. " Winston Smith via Lovelight 01:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Trolling removed

Anon, if some of those here are actually Feds serving in an official capacity this could be construed as a NPA violating. Watch what you say. --Cplot 07:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I would say that calling me a fed would be NPA in itself. But I don't exactly give much weight to what an IP number is saying. Besides he has already been blocked for these comments once, on one IP-adress, if he continues from several IP-adresses he may put his relationship to his IP-provider in jeopardy. --Regebro 08:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No-one, whether paid or unpaid, under the direction of their employer or on their own initiative, should deliberately introduce biased or incorrect material. Certainly, one can question if such edits may have occurred, but an unfounded accusation of vandalism would constitute a personal attack and a failure to assume good faith. Peter Grey 14:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

- Since I'm thinking about that fragile web of lies in main article… it comes to mind (once again) that sooner or later whole tabula will be rewritten… from scratch. I'm not sure what are we all waiting for, but it will happen eventually… couple of days ago on forum which I use to keep in touch with American public, there was this peculiar post about building 7. If I can recall correctly, a lady simply acknowledged demolition, stating that government needed to pull it down, which was apparently OK with her. What a interesting train of thought… So Peter, how are things these days? Should we plug Iraq in that WOT section? Perhaps later?;) Lovelight 14:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- 'a lady' that you may or may not 'recall correctly' is not a reliable source. If you cannot understand this, then maybe you should re-think how you can best contribute Misplaced Pages. A donation of money, perhaps. Iraq is not related to the subject of this article. Peter Grey 15:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You had a good will of reliable resources from me already… and you know it. US administration repeatedly linked 911 to Iraq, link proved to be as false as claims about WMD's. There is no article more appropriate to describe this outrageous lie. Should I start one? That claim was a turning point for that brilliant, I like to call it, "blood for oil" initiative. That is a fact, why would anyone neglect it? Apart from that, I've just pointed above what Rumsfeld said on that very day… why should anyone close an eye on such things? And apart from that, construction of WOT section remains illogical. How can you state second big-operation without addressing the first one? Adding one sentence certainly isn’t: "diatribe about the Iraq War" in this article. I'm interested to hear your reply's, and it would be interesting to see your agreement/disagreement on that RFM too… Lovelight 15:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Lovelight, this has been mentioned to you repeatedly...Iraq came more than a year after 9/11. This article is about the events of that one day, a little of the the rationale for what the motivation was and a little of what the effect was. We are not going to go into a long diatribe about the Iraq War in this article. We have the 2003 invasion of Iraq which is the article you need to discuss that kind of alteration to.--MONGO 15:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What's up? Lovelight 17:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Time to unprotect?

With the 1 week block for one of the instigators of the recent edit war (Cplot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)), does anyone have an objection to a request to remove protection on the article? --StuffOfInterest 12:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Unprotect. My feeling from the comments of yesterday is that we are now in agreement on the issue. We agree that only reliable verifiable sources should be used, and we agree that the article does not deserve a general NPOV-tag. That should minimize the risk for editwars. --Regebro 13:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've put in a request on WP:RFPP. It would be inappropriate for any admin who has edited here to handle the change in protection status, so a general request is the best method. --StuffOfInterest 13:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added Complete 911 Timeline to externals, please leave it there… Lovelight 16:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not gonna remove it, but I do feel a bit skeptical:

Shouldn't you link to http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11 instead if the whole timeline? The article is about the attacks only, not everything before and after. That 9/11 timeline includes the Afghan-Soviet war, and although that is important for understanding the events, especially the Afghan invasion, it's not exactly a 9/11 timeline, is it? :-)
Honestly, it's FULL of speculation. Misplaced Pages isn't a link-list. If there is something you need from that site, it has references to every factual bit it sais. Notably, it lacks references to the speculations, which is all it adds from the references itself. ;)

I understand this is a useful source both for people involved in conspiracy theories and for those debunking it, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do on this page. Don't you agree? --Regebro 17:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

One of the problems with the article is lack of balance. To have: "source both for people involved in conspiracy theories and for those debunking it," is much closer to NPOV then to show one side of issue. We should present facts, it is not our duty to impose opinions. Other editors have pointed to all this already, and all of those claims are valid. As for that other point, we can talk about Vigilant issues which are missing from the article as soon as we conclude that discussion about Iraq/911/al qaeda link… Since day one I stated that article cannot be torn from brother perspective, at least not in such manner as it is… Lovelight 17:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

NO, Lovelight. Lack of balance is NOT a problem with the article, as this discussion has shown above. You have not been able to show one single instance of the article not being balanced. Not one. Thus, the article does NOT Lack balance. Your statement that you include that link to push your own POV agenda. This is unacceptable. You are trying to introuce POV in a NPOV article. That is against wikipedia policies. Please stop. It would be best if you revert your change yourself, or you risk starting a new edit war. Do NOT introduce POV into this article. --Regebro 18:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As I that source is independent not POV. Lovelight 18:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Lovelight, independence does not equal NPOV. You seem to think that only the goverment has a POV and everybody who are independant from the givernment somehow are neutral objective and unbiased. This is not so. POV/NPOV is about being based in facts instead of opinions. That link is FULL of opinions, and hence, it's POV. It happens to be YOUR POV, but that is irrelevant. I have no right to link to a webpage that call conspiracy theorists "Deaf dumb and blind basketcases". That may be my opinion, but it is my POV (and yes, I am as independent as they come), and it has nothing to do in the main article, just as your POV has nothing to do in the main article. Is anything about this unclear? --Regebro 18:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The article links to Main article: September 11, 2001 timeline for the day of the attacks which has a link to the timeline Regebro discusses. --PTR 18:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree with Mongo but I also do not totally agree. If there is a link with the attacks and the war in Iraq then perhaps a misly .5% of the article could be utilized to say something like. "According to ___(dunno... George Bush)___ the war in Iraq(wiki link here) has been linked to september 11, 2006 because point 1, point 2 and maybe point 3"(reference)(next subject) --CyclePat 03:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What's up? Lovelight 17:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Even less reason to include the timeline in the main article, then. There is a perferctly good timeline in Misplaced Pages linked to already. In other words, Lovelight included this link ONLY to make the article POV. Let me quote somebody that at least Lovelight should be able to agree with: "We should present facts, it is not our duty to impose opinions." That link adds nothing to the article, but opinions. It should go, and I think Lovelight should show that he understands and accepts Misplaced Pages policy on this subject by removing it himself. --Regebro 18:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Asking someone to do something in this manner can be view as a form of punishment or hostility and may be perceived as uncivil. Mostly for the fact that it concentrate on the ability of a user. I think such suggestions should be retracted and a small apology may help diffuse the situation so you can concentrate on the issue. --CyclePat 03:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Punishment? Ability? If he put it there he can reasonably be assumed to have the ability to remove it again. Loveligt has shown his ability to edit the page. And how could it be construed to be a punishment that you show you agree but reverting yourself, instead of having a conflict escalation by an editwar? I honestly (and very non-agressively) think you are being patently ridicolous. --Regebro 09:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Go there and read comments… then come back and say what's wrong with such source… Lovelight 18:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What's up? Lovelight 17:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've alredy told you what is wrong with the source. I've also told yo u why it is wrong for you to push your POV on a page that is NPOV. Was I unclear in any way? --Regebro 18:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Regebro, you need to chill out. You're being extremely hostile. While I understand that you disagree with the content of the linked page, and that the discussion on this talk page can get heated, and perhaps frustrating for all participants, you have to be more civil. Debate the merits of the link, citing specific reasons you oppose it; do not accuse LoveLight of trying to intentionally unbalance the article. JDoorj a m Talk 18:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That comment isn't even one little tiny itsy bit hostile. You are reading in something that is not there. I am just being clear and to the point. Lovelight *IS* trying to unbalance the article. It has been explained many times above, so it can be assumed he understands what he is trying to do, and therefore it must be assumed to be intentional. --Regebro 00:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

How's this for notability?

Actor Charlie Sheen believes the conspiracy theories and has strong doubts about the government's POV Here's thelink. And all who have been saying that saying more on conspiracy theories is giving undue weight may have to eat your words--Acebrock 19:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

They are notable enough to bear a mention which we already have in the article. As for the Sheen element, I'm shocked, shocked that a celebrity would have a woo-woo idea in their head! Does this mean in the article on psychaitry. we need to mention scientology's criticism since Tom Cruise supports it? JoshuaZ 19:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

(eye roll)

Criterion 2 for WP:NPOV#Undue Weight:

If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents

He makes the grade. Also He's making a movie based on the actions of one of the heroes of 9/11, who, by the way, sued the Bush administration, blaming them for the attacks, and I don't blame him. Heres the link. Also you're not really discounting my argument--Acebrock 19:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? We have a section on conspiracy theories. It links to the various related articles. I don't see what the issue is. JoshuaZ 19:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

(sigh) Yes but that section acts as if the conspiracy theories meet criterion 3:

If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

I have proven, for the second, or third, time, it meets criterion 2. 1/3 of americans, someone who was a hero of the event, and a notable actor, that's a significant minority, and as such it meets criterion 2, and that's almost impossible to deny. We can go round and round and not get anywhere or we can try to compromise with mediation, If mediation fails, arbitration will begin--Acebrock 19:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, you seem to be missing the point here. We do mention it and they are notable enough for their own articles. They aren't notable enough for more than a small section here which it has. JoshuaZ 19:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I could easily say the same thing to you. The point is giving them a small part of the article is in itself undue weight, when 33% of people believe them, which isn't a tiny minority. It's hould at least go into more detail about their reasoning, like the govornment witholding information. I'm going to add more information. If you revert, explain it here.--Acebrock 20:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

I've added the POV template requested countless times in this discussion. Please ensure it stays there unil these NPOV issues are resolved. --68.30.26.171 19:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If you refuse to point out a section or something specific, then I will continue to revert and take this as vandalism. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 20:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, look at the discussion. This has been going on for quite a while. I think it would be best for everyone if we mediated, though MONGO, et al don't want to for some strange reason. Maybe the think that their way is the only way? Maybe they're afraid that they'll see we're right (though there is no guarantee we are)? Maybe they don't see it ending the conflict? It'd be nice if they'd explain themselves.

People have tried, I have even tried , and all we get are broad claims from this anon user, so broad they cant be worked with and accusations of the government editing the article supress "the truth", you know like Fox Mulder always talked about "the truth" ... See the problem. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 20:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Need to come to consensus about adding the tag before adding the tag.--PTR 20:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrongo! People need to come to consencus to remove said tag, not add it. Please read WP:NPOV--Acebrock 05:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

A dispute does not magically appear because you say there is a dispute. There has to be something that is actually disputed. You have not been able to point out any part of that article whose POV you actually dispute. If you can't provide a dispute, the article should not have a POV-tag. Nowehere in WP:NPOV does it say that the tag needs consensus to be removed, but that anybody has the right to add it without reason. --Regebro 10:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I would not remove the tag if they would at least present something for us to work with here instead of broad claims. I asked them to quote specific sections and was attacked for it. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 20:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've laid out my argument, The Conspiracy theories have a huge following and should recieve more than a paragraph on this page, and it's not like Mongo, et al are proving that page is neutral. Remember thay aren't the only one who have to be convinced of our view, thaey also have to try to convince us of theirs, otherwise we keep going round and round and round, and wind up in arbitration, which is what will happen if we don't try to mediate--Acebrock 20:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

There are entire articles on the conspiracy theories surounding the events of 9/11, I think a paragraph describing the phenomenon is adequate, If anything I think we should just vote and end this, yes I know voting is evil, but it beats wasting our time in constant edit cycles over that tag. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 20:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

But you haven't pointed to paragraphs in the article that are NPOV. You keep saying you want to include more information but don't discuss the proposed changes first to try to have people understand what you want. I made a big change in the article that was reverted by MONGO but after discussion and my explaining why I wanted to change the paragraph to the rewritten version, it was accepted. Help us out here. --PTR 20:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I am happy to vote, and would be delighted to go into arbitration and seek to have this issue settled permanently by seeking a ban on all attempts to expand the section on conspiracy theories. Enough time has been wasted on this.--Cberlet 20:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

How are you sure that ArbCom will decide to go with that decision?--Acebrock 20:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Because the alien lizards who control them told me so.--Cberlet 21:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, so that's what the Goa'uld are up to these days, subjugating the world via Misplaced Pages! Seriously, if the RfM doesn't get off the ground, I'd support taking this up to ArbCom. --StuffOfInterest 21:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for removing that link without any valid explanation… it's my POV as I understand? Collaborate and elaborate joint endeavor based on facts apparently isn’t good enough? Is it what's wrong with cooperative research, or is it what's wrong with Misplaced Pages? You know, it's wrong to say that youtube is poor source, especially if clip represents news report from mainstream media, or testimonies or any other form of factual/historical documentary… it is also wrong to dispute such places as 911 timeline… These locations are gathering and archiving news reports from mainstream media, so if we dispute them, we also dispute AP, Reuters, BBC… and all other media outlets… under some other circumstances I would love to discuss the complicity of mainstream in keeping a status quo, but… Anyway, anyone who disputes that spring should take another visit, click on any section and verify that all articles are properly sourced and cited… Just leave it there… Lovelight 20:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What's up? Lovelight 17:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I say leave the link it is extremely, highly sourced. It surely meets WP:RS and WP:V. We are not in the truth business we are in the verifiability business. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 21:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't see why the timeline link is being removed. It seems to be a valid, valuable resource, and no one seems to have anything specific to say as to why it shouldn't be included. The YouTube link I'm less in support of, not because YouTube isn't a valid source, but because the video itself is a (rather typical) YouTube copyright violation and I'm concerned it might get pulled down, and so we'd have to periodically monitor it. (It also seems more relevant to the article(s) about the war in Iraq than this one.) JDoorj a m Talk 21:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't the timeline link best belong in Timeline of the September 11, 2001 attacks rather than the root article? --StuffOfInterest 21:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Highly relevant for both I would think. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 21:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

My main concern with that much content in the leaf articles is relevant to the root article. If too much is included then the root article becomes oversized, which is the main reason for creating leaf articles in the first place. --StuffOfInterest 21:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Remove some of the less useful links then… would you like me to point some? Lovelight 21:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As explained above, the timeline link is full of spekulation and POV. It's not a very good link. Lovelight has above explained his adding of the link with that he wants more of that POV in the article. So you can hardly claim that the link is NPOV. ;) --Regebro 00:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Regebro, can you give some specific examples of the bias you're referring to? It all looked pretty legit to me. Lovelight, if you're serious about links you don't believe to be worthwhile, you should start a thread about it and we can cull those out of there. JDoorj a m Talk 05:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you blind?

Thanks for removing that link without any valid explanation… it's my POV as I understand? Collaborate and elaborate joint endeavor based on facts apparently isn’t good enough? Is it what's wrong with cooperative research, or is it what's wrong with Misplaced Pages? You know, it's wrong to say that youtube is poor source, especially if clip represents news report from mainstream media, or testimonies or any other form of factual/historical documentary… it is also wrong to dispute such places as 911 timeline… These locations are gathering and archiving news reports from mainstream media, so if we dispute them, we also dispute AP, Reuters, BBC… and all other media outlets… under some other circumstances I would love to discuss the complicity of mainstream in keeping a status quo, but… Anyway, anyone who disputes that spring should take another visit, click on any section and verify that all articles are properly sourced and cited… Just leave it there… Lovelight 20:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC) Lovelight 01:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

As an advocate I am here to express the concern of cplot, I do not believe that the article should be unprotected at the present moment. Furthermore I have raised serveral concerns on the bullying that has occured based on the prejeducial evidence that was used to recently block this user for 1 week. I would like to give my sincere gratitude to all the hard work that appears to be happening here but the issues at stake have not been properly presented because, I believe this user was unfairly blocked, violating WP:Block. Furthermore I put it to you that the POV issue still exist within the article. I sugest that a todo list be started immediatiatelly. Furthermore I suggest cplot be unblocked so he may express his facts in this todo list. (For more reasons you may see user_talk:Mongo page.) Once these facts are brought out we may be able to mediate as I have also suggested on Mongo's talk page. Thank you and may we all be able to properly edit wikipedia in a fair manner. Let us all make sure unfair block never occur when the issue is trully a content dispute. --CyclePat 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Take your issue to Mongo's talk page, its not relevant here. Stop trying to enlist more people to your seperate issues. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 21:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:Civil0 I am very displeased with your response. I find this to be very defensive for absolutely no reason. I am trying to help the article and no you are telling me what to do. Essentially to fuck off! Not only have I brough this subject up to MONGOs talk page but I've even indicated this in the afformentioned message. I take this as a personal violation of WP:CIV and I would appreciate an emediate appology. Thank you. --CyclePat 21:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What I am telling you is that if you have a problem with Mongo and his blocks you should discuss it with Mongo or on AN/I and not attempt to rally the troops here. If you take it as a violation of CIV then you need to read WP:COOL and chill out and possibly take a wikibreak. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 21:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

May I also add that MONGO immediately took the block to WP:ANB/I to get additional input. Several admins supported the block. --StuffOfInterest 21:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for much more civil tone. I would still however appreciate an appology. Secondly, I am simply saying, as an advocate for cplot, I will be helping him present any objections he may have, including his previously alleged POV issues in this article. Again, I am his advocate from a neutral point of view and would appreciate that an appology for your previous abruptness and that we concentrate on the subject mater here. I agree with you, the block should and is being discussed on Mongo's page. Sorry, I guess I did axe my above conversation on the block a little to much. Thank you. --CyclePat 02:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with this article; please keep discussion of blocks on the relevant pages. (MONGO's talk page, while he's amenable to it, Cplot's page, etc.). JDoorj a m Talk 05:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Can we please mediate or come to some sort of agreement? All this stress is going to kill me.--I need a vacation 06:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We have come to an agreement. It is clear from the above discussion that we several times have come to agreement. We agree that:

The article should be NPOV. This means factual with no speculation and no unverifiable statements.
The article should NOT include unproven alternative theories, but because of the popularity of some of these theories, they should link to a separate page that discussed those theories in more detail.
The article should be tagged as POV if and only if, there is a substantial disagreement about the articles POV backed up by substantial claims. (Substanctial in this context meaning "having substance". The claim "there is a dispute" is not a substantial claim. The claim "The sentence so and so has a bias towards foo and is unsourced" is a substantial claim).
The people who are of the opinion that the article is POV should here in the talk page put forward substantial claims of POV point by point, for each claim to be handled separately. No effort to "fix the POV" or "add balance" should be done until it has been shown that it is POV or needs balancing.

These things have all been discussed above, and nobody seems to have disagreed with this. Yet, yesterday, one or several people from the POV-camp broke this agreement, and hence the page quickly got protected again. We have an agreement. I think we should start honoring it. --Regebro 10:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We agreed to nothing and we have resolved… nothing, however, I've certainly learned a few things which I really didn’t wont to know! Your constant refusal to recognize dispute is not helpful at all… your failure to click on history and at least check the headings don't interest me at all. To say that everything is topsy popsy is wishful thinking… your dismissal and removal of WP:RS and WP:V sources is not acceptable. Who is breaking all the house rules? Sing that RFM please… and unblock one of the involved parties too. Lovelight 12:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe the concensus here has agreed, sorry if you are not part of that. However I think many editors here do not want to go in circles with adding a NPOV tag that noone will explain how they can improve the article to remove it, except broad steps that do not even specify problem sections etc. I agree with Regebro on his statement. If sections are presented, paragraphs / setences that are problems, then we can all work on them, however I believe the concensus here, minus Lovelight, is that we will not chase phantom POV issues. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 12:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Good then, I'm assuming a good fate, remove the protection and let me reinstall that link… Lovelight 13:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I had no problem with your link if you mean the timeline, and still don't. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 13:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Lovelight, firstly, these things have been stated before, one by one, and no objections have arised. It was therefore reasonable to conclude that there was a consensus on these four points. If you don't agree with the four points above, can you state why you don't agree with them?
Secondly, I do not in any way refuse to recognize dispute. But you have yet to actually tell me what you are disputing. You just claim there is a dispute. About what? What is it you are disputing? Why are you unwilling to say that? How can we judge if there is something wrong with an article if you refuse to say what is wrong, and just over and over repeat that something is wrong? This current state where we are disputing whether there is a dispute is ludicrous. If you have something to dispute, dispute that. Do NOT once again claim that there is a dispute without saying what that dispute is about. That behaviour is simply only disruptive and can lead nowhere.
Thirdly, if you want to reinstate the link, why do you not do what you repeatedly have been asked: Start a section here in the talk page, and explain why you think the link should be added? Why do you refuse to come with specific claims and specific change requests? --Regebro 13:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear God, not again… here…

Thanks for removing that link without any valid explanation… it's my POV as I understand? Collaborate and elaborate joint endeavor based on facts apparently isn’t good enough? Is it what's wrong with cooperative research, or is it what's wrong with Misplaced Pages? You know, it's wrong to say that youtube is poor source, especially if clip represents news report from mainstream media, or testimonies or any other form of factual/historical documentary… it is also wrong to dispute such places as 911 timeline… These locations are gathering and archiving news reports from mainstream media, so if we dispute them, we also dispute AP, Reuters, BBC… and all other media outlets… under some other circumstances I would love to discuss the complicity of mainstream in keeping a status quo, but… Anyway, anyone who disputes that spring should take another visit, click on any section and verify that all articles are properly sourced and cited… Just leave it there… Lovelight 20:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC) Lovelight 01:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC) Lovelight 13:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have not removed any link. You have countless times been asked you specify point by point, what you want changed and why. Why don't you do that? --Regebro 15:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

WOT

You had a good will of reliable resources from me already… and you know it. US administration repeatedly linked 911 to Iraq, link proved to be as false as claims about WMD's. There is no article more appropriate to describe this outrageous lie. Should I start one? That claim was a turning point for that brilliant, I like to call it, "blood for oil" initiative. That is a fact, why would anyone neglect it? Apart from that, I've just pointed above what Rumsfeld said on that very day… why should anyone close an eye on such things? And apart from that, construction of WOT section remains illogical. How can you state second big-operation without addressing the first one? Adding one sentence certainly isn’t: "diatribe about the Iraq War" in this article. I'm interested to hear your reply's, and it would be interesting to see your agreement/disagreement on that RFM too… Lovelight 15:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said, this is not a diatribe, this is half sentence, one sentence most… It is not an issue that needs explaining, it's common, well referenced knowledge. Here take a look at draft, proposed changes are in bold… as you see its tiny little edit, and it doesn’t have to be referenced nowhere but in WOT section. To be honest, I wouldn’t push it so persistently, but if we cannot agree on obvious, how could we have a decent discussion about more concerning issues? Lovelight 13:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you explain why you reposted this? This is the third time you have posted the text above in this article. This time you included the answers. They exist also above. I will assume good faith and let you explain this behaviour. --Regebro 15:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to have continuous discussion and you are continually disruptive? If you would please step a side so we wouldn't have an incident, thank you. Lovelight 16:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda: because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda," George Bush via Lovelight 16:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What's up?

You didn't answer my question: Why did you repost a part of your discussion, available above in this talk-page, again? You say you want a continous discussion. Then why do you copy it over so it is in two places? That is not continous. It would be nice if one of the administators can shed light on how this type of behaviour is normally seen. To me it is disruptive to see the same statement posted several times, it makes it hard to follow the debate properly. Also, instead of answering CyclePat inder the section where he wrote the answer, you copied it to a new section. Too me that looks like you are trying to hide your answer from him so he won't see it. By as I said, I will Assume Good Faith, and give you a chance to explain this behaviour. --Regebro 17:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and if you want to have a continous discussion, could you please indent more carefully? Indent one more indentation than the comment you answer, please. This is so it's possible to see what you are answering. That is, if the answer starts with say, ::::: your answer should start with ::::::. That is, one colon more than the answer. That makes it clear to who you answer. --Regebro 17:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qaeda and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qaeda to provide material or operational support, United States Senate via Lovelight 17:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"The terrorists have lost a sponsor in Iraq. And no terrorist networks will ever gain weapons of mass destruction from Saddam Hussein's regime." President Bush in his speech to the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia, September, 2003. Lovelight 17:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems obvious that the conspiracy theories and controversies surrounding 911, regardless of rather or not they hold water-tight reasoning, are an important aspect of this topic. There doesn't seem to be any significant opinion that suggests that the theories of evolution, scientology, christianity, or the JFK controversies should be excluded from Misplaced Pages merely because the theories aren't watertight. As such, it seems unreasonable to completely exclude conspiracy theories from the main 9/11 article, merely because they can't be proved with 100% accuracy. The September 11, arguably, form the most controversial issues of recent current affairs, yet from reading through the article this isn't immediately clear until reading the conspiracy section mid-way through this, very long, article. I think a good solution would be to put more detail in the conspiracy section, mention that there was widespread controversy regarding the attacks (including conspiracy theories) at the start of the article, and provide the link to the main 911 conspiracy article. I would hope that people could agree this to be a fair resolution which everyone could, take a pragmatic view and, accept. --Signed by: Chazz - (responses). @ 14:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories are not neglected in this article. They are properly treated in accordance with WP:SUMMARY, as are other subarticles such as September 11, 2001 timeline for the day of the attacks, Collapse of the World Trade Center, Health effects of September 11, 2001 attacks, etc. --Aude (talk) 14:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Aude, this is also about first impressions, amount of traffic, notability, current perspectives, public opinions, decency… and so on. Such issues whether Boeing 757, Pinocchio, Superman or flying Dick Cheney penetrated Pentagon shouldn’t be discussed in article, however, fact that after five years of public demands for more evidence, no such evidence is presented should definitely be presented. I see no reason whatsoever to tie valid questions with term conspiracy. If evidence presented is disputed, we should acknowledge the fact; it is not for us to guess why clear video feed of that particular event is withheld from public. CCTV in London has all those face recognizing features, and I would guess that sweet spot as Pentagon would have something better... if one (majority) find's all that reluctance to release information puzzling, does that constitutes conspiracy? Same goes for all other clear, obvious, factual, verifiable… peculiarities of that day. We have RFM, I would once more kindly ask if all involved parties would sing… Lovelight 16:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems appropriate to allow Lovelight to summarise facts relevant to the conspiracy in the conspiracy section, of course with a summary of any opposing facts. Signed by: Chazz - (responses). @ 17:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You want to know my problems with the article? It reads as if the 9/11 attacks, as the government described them, are the way the events happened, and it treats the conspiracy theorists as a tiny minority that are hardly worth mentioning. I want to expand the conspiracy theory section to reflect the fact that a lot of people believe that the government had some involvement as well as naming prominent adherents, and I want to change the wording around, (murdered and massacred to killed, for example) at the very least, and at the very best, showing that there are many questons raised about the events. I don't think I can make this any more clear, though obviously it's vague because this is the third time I've brought it up. Mediation should be done, regardless of whether we think there is a dispute, remember, if there is disute over whether a dispute exists, then a dispute probably exists. That's in Misplaced Pages Policy.--I need a vacation 18:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is when cplot was asked "what sentence or paragraph do you feel is POV", he would respond with the whole thing is POV. We need a basis to start from. I personally do not mind changing all isntances of massacre to killed, however massacre seems to be explain it when its in the thousands of victims. As for conspiracy theories I do not think they should take up too large a portion of the article as none have really gained any traction or are being actively appropriately tested. This leaves you with 2 options I can think of, start picking paragraphs and let everyone chime in, explain in detail what you think is wrong or POV about it and we can work together, or you can attempt a complete rewrite on your talk page in private or with everyone chiming in suggestions and edits. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 18:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The news media (around the world, not just the U.S. media) has written about and reported about 9/11 endlessly. These tend to be reliable sources that are appropriate for this article, and also comply with WP:V. In addition to countless witnesses and survivors at the WTC, there were many phone calls from the four flights, and numerouse witnesses at the Pentagon who saw an American Airlines passenger jet and saw bits and pieces of the airplane in the Pentagon, on the lawn, and on the road. The government is only one source for the mainstream account in which Al Qaeda hijackers crashed planes into buildings. The number of reliable sources about conspiracy theories pales in comparison to information available that is consistent with the mainstream account. We need to discuss all these various aspects of 9/11 in summary here, leaving details to the subarticles. Conspiracy theories are just one of many aspects, and we do not need to give them any more space than they presently have. --Aude (talk) 18:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Where exactly are you pointing Aude? Are you saying you're ready to discuss and add all facts about "notable inconsistencies" of 911? If so I would tend to agree, however, if you are referring to such "inconsistencies" as to conspiracy talk, that would mean your usual suggestion of forcing a status quo, however, status quo is not acceptable on present day. There were all sorts of "confusing reports" from mainstream media. There are all sort's of important issues which are missing from context. Apart from that, assertion how; "The number of reliable sources about conspiracy theories pales in comparison to information available that is consistent with the mainstream account.", sounds outlandish… Lovelight 19:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you want, you say the article is POV but dont name sections, you say you want "alternate theories" introduced to the article, which others are calling "conspiracy theories", what are exactly are we talking about here? Is it Person X believes Donald Rumsfeld blew up the Twin Towers"? kind stuff, is it outlandish like the "Hologram Theory" which suggested that Cruise missles from US warships blew up the Twin Towers but used sophisticated holographic technology to disguise the missles as jumbo jets? What exactly do you find to be a credible "alternate theory", and how much space do you envision being dedicated to talk about it in the current article? Can you write something up and source it appropriately so others can look at it? Sourcing appropriately meaning of course sources that pass WP:RS and WP:V. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 20:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed my point? Such issues whether Boeing 757, Pinocchio, Superman or flying Dick Cheney penetrated Pentagon shouldn’t be discussed in article, however, fact that after five years of public demands for more evidence, no such evidence is presented should definitely be presented. I see no reason whatsoever to tie valid questions with term conspiracy… As for that other question I'll certainly point some refreshing issues, as soon as we resolve this one… if you wondering which one, read from top of the section, and be certain to take a look at that draft… I would be interested to hear your opinion, earlier you stated: " "What does Iraq have to do with the 9/11 attacks at the time of them happening, the Iraq section should say that it was part of the WOT at most, which sprang from 9/11." Which is exactly my case… Lovelight 20:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he missed your point. We all did. Once again you say what what you don't want to do. We have asked you to say what you WANT to do. Why do you refuse to do that? How do you expect to get through the changes you want when you refuse to say what they are? --Regebro 20:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see an Iraq section ... I am confused. If we add an Iraq section we have to add a section on Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa, Operation Enduring Freedom - Phillipines, Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan, Operation Active Endeavor. All of these predate Iraq, so I dont see why we should add one, or if its there why it shouldnt be removed since it doesnt make sense to have only a section about the latest and not all the predating ones. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 20:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It's about simple, yet relevant change to existing section in the article. Paragraph in question is War on Terrorism, and for your convenience proposed change are pasted here, in bold:

War on terrorism: In the aftermath of the attacks, many U.S. citizens held the view that they had "changed the world forever." The Bush administration declared a war on terrorism, with the stated goals of bringing Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda to justice and preventing the emergence of other terrorist networks. These goals would be accomplished by means including economic and military sanctions against states perceived as harboring terrorists and increasing global surveillance and intelligence sharing. Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq. The second-biggest operation outside of the United States was the overthrow of Afghanistan's Taliban government, by a U.S.-led coalition. The U.S. was not the only nation to increase its military readiness, with other notable examples being the Philippines and Indonesia, countries that have their own internal conflicts with Islamic extremist terrorism…

As you've noticed WP:RS and WP:V sources are everywhere, and if you dislike wording say so, this is draft only… Lovelight 22:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Cheney wont's a word and his say is: "There clearly was a relationship. It's been testified to. The evidence is overwhelming," Lovelight 23:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks you so very very much for being specific! :) It is so much nicer to talk about something concrete, and not just butting your head against a wall of generalities. Anyhoo, here are my questions:

That paragraph is about the US government response to the attack. Are you saying that the Iraq war was a response to the attacks? Because that's what your addition says. I'm not sure thats a generally accepted viewpoint, to say the least. I'm pretty sure most people feel that they used the war on terrorism as an excuse to get popular support for the invasion. I know I do. --Regebro 00:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

There's no dispute that there were allegations of complicity on the part of Iraq. And that is reported in the appropriate articles - there's no cover-up. But no justification has yet been proposed as to why it should be mentioned in the summary article. Bear in mind that the hijackers, whatever other terrible things they may be criminally responsible for, are not responsible for anything connected with Iraq. Peter Grey 02:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hijackers? How is this related to hijackers, its related to the War on Terror, US administrations response and invasion of Iraq... with regards to this event and in appropriate section of the article... Lovelight 13:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You may find the justification in presented fact's, if on 9/11 Rumsfeld pointed nowhere else but to Iraq (which is based on such reasoning as there are no good targets in Afghanistan!?) then why should anyone neglect such fact? You are all well aware of consequences of that warmongering talk, you know the state of ME today, there is origin of that actuality, it is 911 and that is common knowledge. Mainstream media was more then complicit in staging that whole play, little spin here, little spin there…, well, the facts are known today. I'm not sure if there is a need to point this out, but I certainly don't expect from you folks here to act with such patriotism which will bend reality or change factuality of events. What is that? Honestly, I said it before, I know its disturbing from US perspective, I can sympathize with your outrage (if any) because of those lies, however, emotions are not of issue here (Regbro), there is no nationality here, we are Wikieditors and we deal with facts. Peter, when I presented original proposal all of your (repeatedly) stated concerns were taken in account, I've provided you with poll's which clearly show that vast majority of US forces believe they are in Iraq because countries connection with events of 911 (even today). There is a lot's of "peer" articles which will reflect this fact if it is stated in "seed article". Origin of 911/Iraq link is nowhere but here, yet Iraq is conveniently missing from article (it is sort of masterpiece apart from that little irrationality in WOT section). Addition is factual, verified, clear and relevant. It just fits that empty space there, it is properly added variable. Case was made crispy clear, and for you to question its importance from historical perspective we have today, honestly? Lovelight 12:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

And again your point is that the link is indirect, existing only as a political construct unrelated to the actions of the hijackers. Thus by your own arguments it does not belong in the summary article. Perhaps among the other 1,510,850 articles in Misplaced Pages there are some where that particular point needs greater emphasis, but that should be brought up on the talk pages of the corresponding articles. Peter Grey 13:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hijackings are addressed above.., this proposal is very short, factual and relevant summary which fits current summary... if you are ready to dismiss that you shouldn’t dispute that POV tag… Lovelight 14:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with general opinions which are generally clear about this particular issue for years now. Apparently, and for reason unknown these facts need to be proven every once in a while… which is kind of amusing, it must be some sort of collective memory loss or something? A digression as such bygone and fact is Regbro that I'm not saying anything, fact is that I'm presenting facts. Just facts. If you won't to plea against facts go to your own Senate. Or feel free to dispute its findings. You know what is also a fact? Your perception of general opinions is mirrored reflection of articles as false as this one. Case is made clear. WP:RS and WP:V are met. Feel free to suggest/improve the wording but please, leave the meaning intact and clear. Lovelight 00:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, facts is facts. So why don't we change the sentence to say "In 1914 war broke out in Europ". It's a fact. It also, just as your fact, has nothing to do with the paragraph in which you want to include it. --Regebro 08:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Addition is quite clear I believe, imo the section is more then appropriate, if you would prefer a different one say so but I believe it should be brief and to the point. Have my apologies for such inappropriate reply, but your accusations of me reposting and disturbing the flow of thought in the moment in which I tried to summarize it and restore it did throw me of the track there… there is also this issue of repeating, since you keep repeating how I should state the case while case was constantly swimming in this little flow of thought we have here;). We had a few disagreements yesterday… let's leave them there? Lovelight 12:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The addition is super clear. That's not the problem. The problem is that by adding it in that section, you say that the Iraqi invasion was a response to the attacks. This is a highly controversial POV, and is based on Saddam Hussein somehow being an accomplice to the attacks, which we have seen no proof of. It's therefore adding government POV to an article you claim has too much government POV already. That makes no sense... --Regebro 12:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Since, you put it that way, yes apparently in this case I'm for introducing that government POV;). Government POV doesn’t really help the government does it? But those are not my concerns, and I'm not considering it as POV at all. Iraq was a part of direct response with regard to 911 events, or as Dick Cheney would put it: "We will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who've had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11.". It makes sense to me…;) Lovelight 13:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with helping anybody. It has only to do with one thing: POV. And it is POV to accept the controversial statement that Iraq was a part of the war on terror, and it is even more POV to claim that Iraq was accomplices to the 9/11 attacks. --Regebro 14:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What kind of conclusion is that? And who are we suppose to help? How can you conclude such thing? What to hell your post has to do with my proposal? I'll answer you and save you some time, this things you are throwing at me have nothing to do with it. Not a thing. Read it carefully, because it was constructed carefully, it is intended to serve as note in encyclopedia you know?

Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq.

What's up?;)))Lovelight 15:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The quote you included now is directly contradictory to the change you wanted to make before. Iraq can not be both a response to 9/11, and 9/11 cannot be used as a false justification for Iraq at the same time. If it is a response, it is not used as a false justification. If it used as a false justification, it is not a response. --Regebro 15:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This is old proposal; it is same as it ever was… it doesn’t change and its clear for everyone, especially if you carefully go through this section and original draft. You, are not helping at all, and your attempts to spin the facts are, politely said… not a appreciated. Didn't you see my replay on talk page? Would you like me to throw a POV? Lovelight 16:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You know, there are other concerns, such as how to reflect the importance of those "inconsistencies" or how to distinguish reality from conspiracy… it would be lovely if we could finally wrap this one. Aude? Would you share your thoughts? Suggest wording? You had no other dispute I believe? Lovelight 13:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

In response to Acebrocks question: "You want to know my problems with the article?":

Yes, I want to know your problems with the article, thank you for answering and being so clear about it. Perfect! Your suggested changes seem very minor, and are hardly changes that require or deserve a POV tag. Can you make concrete exactly what changes you want? Preferably in a section below? --Regebro 20:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

In order to avoid all the stress involving debates, I'm rewriting the article in my userspace and noting changes in the respective talk page, so as to make points for discussion. Boring, but it goes somewhere. I'd recommend the oters who believe that the artice needs to be changed do the same, so we have some idea about what each of us thinks and can use the best points--I need a vacation 01:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see you revert to the "the whole article is bad but I won't tell you why" stance. It's not constructive. --Regebro 08:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Communcations pointed to Osama?

On the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.

sourced with: ^ "Latest on the attacks on America, 7:00 PM", CBS News, September 11, 2001.

I think it should either be sourced better, or be removed. On the day of attacs there were numerous claims (6 airplanes hijacked etc...) which turned out to be false. (the same goes to Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks article) SalvNaut 18:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone is aware if this fact found it's place in 9/11 commission (ommission) report? SalvNaut 20:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

This was already answered above so asking twice is disruptive...don't be disruptive.--MONGO 20:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

??— Preceding unsigned comment added by SalvNaut (talk • contribs)

Mongo, stay on topic. SalvNaut is clearly trying to fix these serious NPOV problems. You cannot simply say "well the article reflects my POV so I've asnwered you". One suggestion would be to restate this as: "CBS News reported that on the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.' This way it makes it clear and verifiable. A reader can verify that CBS reported this. A reader cannot veify that US intelligence agencies interecepted communications. --70.8.139.192 21:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

First off...get a username...secondly, Osama admitted to being the mastermind. I don't care if the CBS news issue is removed, but we're not going to alter the facts to fit some POV that Osama had nothing to do with the event, when the preponderance of evidence indicates he did. As far as "serious" NPOV problems...what...shall we have the article become full of conspiracy theory nonsense, or stick to what is provable? There is no POV issues, except from those that want to believe the impossible...that was addressed above.--MONGO 21:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Provable? I don't think that that's in wikipedia policy. Verifiable, yes, provable, no policy that I've seen. The conspiracy theories are verifiable, they aren't Original Research, and they can be presented in a Neutral Point of View, so for the most part that argument is moot--Acebrock 21:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

That there are conspiracy theories is a fact....that the theories are based on fact is the issue...they are not based on facts and hence, in accordance with the undue weight clause of the NPOV policy, they get a passing mention and a link to their own article under appropriate titles.--MONGO 21:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Ahoy mate, good to see you up and runnin' ;P Lovelight 00:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I quote WP:NPOV#undue weight NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. It's a prominently held view that 9/11 was caused by the government, as shown by google results. Also I quote Jimbo:

- - - If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
    - If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
    - If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

many of the conspiracy theories meet criterion 2, not 3 as you seem to believe. A full third of people is a significant minority, and as such it is currently unduly underweighted--Acebrock 22:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The conspiracy theories are opinion based...we don't reference opinion based nonsense to accodate your POV. I am well awre of the undue weight clause and it doesn't matter how many people "think" the government was behind the attacks or anything like that...the fact that it is not supported by the verifiable evidence is the reason such nonsense is relegated to the appropriately named daughter articles. It is a violation of the undue weight clause to include them here. They are mentioned and linked...this has been disucussed with POV pushers of nonsense for years now and the conspiracy theorists have brought zero new evidence to the table to refute the known facts.--MONGO 07:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

who says that the government's story isn't based on opinion? The causes of autism article is based on scholarly opinions. And the extreme male brain theory section is based purely on opinion, yet the opinion of a reputable researcher, and apparently a number of people believe it. Also it's the Christian's opinion that they will be raptured away, the only proof is in one edition of the bible. And cite one policy that says that there has to be evidence to have something included in an article. If one third of americans believe that the goverment had something to do with 9/11 than it's notable enough to recieve more than a blurb--Acebrock 18:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Some statistics. Apart from that, do you folks remember the initial reaction of Osama? He said: "I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons,"… it was on Al Jazeera, as well as CNN. Lovelight 00:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Mongo wrote: "First off...get a username...secondly," Mongo do you have no regard at all for what Wikpedia is trying to accomplish. Everywhere throughout Misplaced Pages there are users who take NPOV seriously; who take verifiability serioiusly; who take no original researcy seriously, unlke you. And many of those who make valuable contributions to Wikpedia do so annonymously: another tenant of wikis. Again, if you don't like the idea behiind wikipedia, then don't participate. But please don't come in here and insist Misplaced Pages be like Fox News or the New York Times. Just go participate in those insitutions if that's what you're looking for.

Secondly, Osama bin Laden is a living person and so we must be careful to adhere to Wikpedia's policies on that. There has not been any indictment of Osama bin Laden on this: let alone a conviction. Most of the evidence that I presume exists has never been aired in a court of law. Now I believe Osama bin Laden had something to do with these attacks, but that doesn't let me (or anyone else) run rough shot over over Wikpedia policies and guidelines. We're here to write and encyclopedia: a wiki encyclopedia. Join in that process or just recuse yourself. Looking through these dicussion archives I find a lot of evidence that you're here to disrupt and not contribute.

Now that it's clear that there is not a concesnsus among editors, it's time for us to figure out a way to make this artricle meet Misplaced Pages's standards. There are so many problems in this article it's going to take a log of work. Your attempts to shout down every editor you don't agree with only makes it that much more cumbersome to fix the article. --68.30.46.228 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I wish you luck POV pushing in this article...and don't tell me to go elsewhere...how dare you! All I asked you to do was to get a username...you'll be much more likely to have your efforts here treated with respect if you create a username and use only that when you contribute...that is simply the way it works on an article such as this one, whether you like it or not. Osama has admitted to masterminding the attacks...that is about as clear as it can be.--MONGO 07:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Admitting to "masterminding" is orthogonal to being guilty of masterminding. Don't you remember 80's/90's when afer each terrorist attack numerous terrorist organizations claimed responsibility? Anyway, I'm sure that people connected with Osama had something to do with 9/11 - question is what exactly, where did the money come from? etc.

Getting back to the point again: Changing this sentence to "In the evening of the day of attack CBS reported that....,which hasn't been confirmed later." is a good proposition. I already made some research into this and couldn't find nothing more about it? Has anyone found something? We don't want to spread disinformation, do we? SalvNaut 11:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

What I've found so far is this report about communication intercepted betwen Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September. So... who knows what CBS report was about (foreknowledge?). Maybe it's not a good idea to use CBS report from the day of attack as a source? SalvNaut 21:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

On the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.

Please remove this unverifed statement per arguments above. We are not here to repeat everything what media says. This sentence should be at least clarified with "On the day of attacks CBS reported that...." but even then, I see no reason to include it. There were numerous false statements in the media on that day. Or it could be sourced much much better to explain who, when, who intercepted, etc. I've only found info about Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September. SalvNaut 22:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at September 11 attacks. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

A new source has been presented - very good. The problem is that there is not a word in this source about Osama bin Ladin. Only about "interception of telephone conversations between jubilant terrorist supporters" and from the article it can be read that those were other terrorist cells. Please, stay strict and sharp minded, and if you want to have it here rephrase it appropriately (to whoever made the edit). Replacing "Osama" with "members of Al-Qaeda" or something similiar. Don't you think it's stupid that the article, at its present form, states that Osama called hijackers on the day of attacks, while even FBI admits that they do not have enough proof to pursue Osama for 9/11? SalvNaut 00:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but a source is given, just because its not a website you can google doesnt mean it doesnt exist and as such should be left alone, WP:V doesnt mean "items that you can get to by your web browser." As such the original source given should be the one in the article. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 16:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The source says "From known bin Laden supporters". Maybe we should replace "that pointed to bin Laden" with that wording instead? It makes less conclusions. --Regebro 17:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

THe original source simply stated as, "Latest on the attacks on America, 7:00 PM", CBS News, September 11, 2001.?

I think we should leave the wording alone unless we can get that source and see what it says, else just leave it all alone since its clear SalvNut has not gotten his hands on the source to allege that its not valid. Again WP:RS and WP:V does not mean stuff you can google. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 17:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but shouldn't we keep the orginal source as well, until SalvNut has done that? --Regebro 17:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What I am saying is unless it can be shown that the original source given is faulty, noone should just remove it because they do not have access to it and do not believe what it says. So unless Salvnut has seen the source and can prove its bad, it should stay and this really isnt an issue. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 17:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's what ABC News had to say at 8pm on 9/11/2001:

"Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, who is a member of the Intelligence Committee, told the Associated Press that US intelligence intercepted communications between supporters of Osama bin Laden discussing the attacks on the World Trade Center. And he then goes on to say, I'm just going to get his quote accurately here, 'They have an intercept of some information, including people associated with Osama bin Laden, who acknowledged a couple of targets were hit.'"

The various sources from the day of the attack, and the weeks/months after, indicate many different communications intercepts of Al Qaeda and Bin Laden supporters, as well as communications of Bin Laden himself (to his mother). If I keep sifting through the articles, I'm sure I'll find more such details that could be added to the article. I don't mind if we replace the CBS source with other sources that provide more details about the intercepted communications. Though, I also entirely agree that reliable sources that can't be found on Google are entirely acceptable. --Aude (talk) 17:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice finds, I was mainyl concerned with protecting the existing source, however you have found suitable replacements that perhaps people will have less an issue with. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 18:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Those "new" sources resulted from a very quick search of news article databases. There were hundreds of articles (from only the month of Sept. 2001) about intercepted communications somehow related or connected to Osama bin Laden. I did not have time to sift through all the sources and read them all. There are 1600+ such articles from Sept - December 2001. Some may be false positives, but a spot check shows most are relevant. I just clicked on one that says:

"Suspected terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden told his mother there was "big news" on the way, two days before the September 11 terror strikes, it was reported last night."

"An unnamed foreign intelligence agency reportedly intercepted a call in which bin Laden said: "In two days, you are going to hear big news, and you are not going to hear from me for a while."

"The call was made to Al-Kalifa bin Laden, who is either his mother or adoptive mother, a wife of his father who may have raised him after his birth mother died."

This is from the Belfast News Letter, dated October 3, 2001. It's also reported in the Globe and Mail (Toronto) on October 2, 2001, and over 100 other news articles.

Since the article is protected, I don't want to add these details and sources just yet. --Aude (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The news databases also contain transcripts from CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC and other broadcast sources. The CBS News source is a transcript from the evening of September 11, 2001, when more facts were beginning to come in. Any university as well as many public libraries can provide you with access to such databases. --Aude (talk) 17:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so what we have now, is communication between Osama and his stepmother intercepted on 9th of September and "... an intercept of some information, including people associated with Osama bin Laden, who acknowledged a couple of targets were hit." (on 11th, right?) Can someone make an edit that would reflect just that? SalvNaut 20:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Remove protection to add link?

Is it possible to remove the edit protection to include a link to the September 11 2001 fifth anniversary page?

No, maybe if it weren't a stub with four notices at the top. --Golbez 13:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

terrorist?

isnt calling 9/11 a "terrorist" attact POV? one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Keltik31 16:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The aim of the terrorism does not change its status as terrorism. --Regebro 16:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Then the state of Israel is a terrorist nation and Ariel Sharon is a terroristKeltik31 17:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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