Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tagishsimon (talk | contribs) at 17:10, 5 December 2006 (→Something that annoys me). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives (dates are close, not exact)
(1) Jan 1-Sep 15 '04	(2) Feb 1-Nov 13 '04
(3) Mar 20 -Aug 17 '05	(4) Aug 19-Aug 30 '05
(5) Sep 4-Sep 18 '05	(6) Sep 25-Dec 3 '05
(7) Dec 10-Jan 9 '06	(8) Jan 9-Jan 19 '06
(9) Jan 19-Mar 27 '06	(10) Apr 2-Aug 2 '06
(11) Aug 9-Sep 20 '06	(12) Sep 21-Oct 22 '06
(13) Oct 21-Nov 1 '06	(14) Nov 1-Nov 11 '06
(15) Nov 9-Dec 4 '06	(16) Dec 5-?
Currently inactive and soon to be deleted: "Association of Reference Desk Volunteers"

RefDeskBot (talk · contribs)

Putting aside all the squabbling for a second, has anyone else noticed that RefDeskBot (talk · contribs) has been down since December 2nd and no one even noticed? --172.132.202.103 16:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Emergency!! RD Bot off line — Preceding unsigned comment added by Light current (talk • contribs)

It's not an emergency, I talked to Martin and the Bot will be back up tonight--172.147.216.150 16:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It does seem to be getting a bit long, but that's only two days ago, not time to panic yet (when exactly is the proper time to panic, anyway ?). StuRat 16:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the longest any one desk has ever gotten was about 3500 KB or 3.5 MB, so anything short of that probably isn't going to break wikipedia, at least going on past experiences--172.147.216.150 16:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm tearing my hair out here - my internet's being really unstable :(, but the bot is runnng now, slowly :). Thanks Martinp23 18:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. StuRat 19:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Done :D. If it misses just one day, it would help hugely if you could tell me on my talk page, so I can run a job and start the bot up again, rather than waiting 'til I notice :) Martinp23 20:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Will do. StuRat 20:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel this comment is inappropriate

It's not funny, it's off-topic, it adds nothing to the RD or the project, and as a woman I'm offended by it. Anchoress 02:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree; gender-based generalizations are insulting to everyone, and certainly do not constitute facts. I'll ask the user to remove it, if you haven't already. -- SCZenz 02:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I already removed it. Perhaps this was too bold, but removing it seemed appropriate to me. Obviously irrelevant. Friday (talk) 02:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe it is irrelevant. The subject is the motivation for subjects to pose in certain ways. As such, the motivation of women who pose for pornographic photos is related. (Of course, the motivation is quite obvious if they are paid, but less so otherwise.) StuRat 05:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I was about to amend it. But obviously you couldnt wait.--Light current 03:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

THB comment

Assuming that it should have been removed, I strongly feel that Light current should have been given the chance to remove it himself, that it was not quite offensive enough to remove on sight, maybe because it was not intended to be nasty or trolling. I'm confused about the Ref Desk as far as the practice of editing others' comments as is done in articles. I was under the impression that it functioned more in the manner of a talk page (in the manner of, not as) in that it is considered rude to mess with other people's contributions. -THB 04:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If we're bringing back the talk page analogy, see Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines: "Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." It may be polite to give people a chance to remove inappropriate comments, but it is by no means required. When the remark is more impolite than the removal, well, Friday's decision was quite reasonable. -- SCZenz 04:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

This is also on the Talk page guidelines page:

Don't edit others' comments: Refrain from editing others' comments without their permission (with the exception of prohibited material such as libel and personal details). It is not necessary to bring talk pages to publishing standards, so there is no need to correct typing errors, grammar, etc. It tends to irritate the users whose comments you are correcting. Never edit someone's words to change their meaning.

-THB 04:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been through this at great length with StuRat; it's simply not true that "refrain from editing others' comments" contradicts the part of the guideline I cited. I would never dream of editing someone's comments to change their meaning, but I would in some cases remove off-topic comments, and that's allowed. -- SCZenz 05:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

In many circumstances, I'd agree that asking the author to edit their own comments might be a good thing. However I chose not to do that in this case- I have seen enough similarly inappropriate comments from Light current that I cannot trust his own judgment on what is or is not appropriate. Since he doesn't know how to make his own edits appropriate, I did it for him. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but that's the situation here. Friday (talk) 04:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It was certainly not meant to be offensive to anyone, just an observation on what power photographers have over their subjects. Obviously some took it to be offensive. Offensiveness when not intended is not always obvious to the poster. 8-(--Light current 04:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't completely off-topic, as the topic is various poses favored by photographers (specifically, smiling versus not smiling). As such, the Girls Gone Wild pose of lifting their shirts for the camera seems closely related, to me. StuRat 04:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, StuRat, I was going to give the Girls Gone Wild thing as an example as well, but I don't feel comfortable actually supporting the comment that was removed. I did reflect on it when I first saw it but never thought about removing it or asking for it to be removed, it just wasn't at that level. -THB 04:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me there is a wide gulf between supporting a post and calling for it's removal. There are many, many posts which I don't personally support, but whose removal I would nevertheless oppose. This reminds me of the quote: "I may not agree with what you said, but I will fight to the death your right to say it." This, apparently, is the diff between me and the numerous deletionists we have accumulated here, who often seem to want to delete anything they don't personally agree with. StuRat 05:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I support your right to say whatever you want on your own website. The servers our comments are hosted by belongs to the Wikimedia Foundation. -- SCZenz 05:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

That's rather rude, basically telling me to "get lost"/"shove off"/"clear off". Try to be more civil. Or, perhaps I should reply in kind, and suggest that you go create your own website, where you can be the absolute dictator and delete anything you don't like. StuRat 05:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not rude. It's a basic statement that you don't seem to be grasping- free speech arguments are irrelevant to Misplaced Pages. This is essentially private property - the foundation owns it. They do get to decide how it's used, and the purpose of this website is to be an encyclopedia, not a forum for free speech. Friday (talk) 05:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

They get to decide, not you. StuRat 05:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not at all what I intended; I didn't mean anything personal at all. I was rather using the impersonal "you," just as in the quote you gave. The point is, political free speech rights do not extend to websites owned by others. The Wikimedia Foundation has a fundamental principle of "the 'wiki process' as the final authority on content" and the community has agreed that "Misplaced Pages is not a forum for unregulated free speech". Thus your arguments and quotes from philosophers about political free speech are irrelevant. -- SCZenz 05:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

A certain degree of Free Speech is allowed on talk page, including the Ref Desk. StuRat 05:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

That "degree of Free Speech" should not include off-topic conterfactual sexist generalizations. -- SCZenz 05:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not "off-topic", as the discussion is about the motivation of subjects to pose in "unnatural" ways. It's not "counterfactual sexual generalization", as some women are willing to pose in such ways. Had it claimed that ALL women are willing to do so, then you would be correct. "Disagreements should be resolved through consensual discussion, rather than through tightly sticking to rules and procedures." StuRat 05:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I want to point out (not assuming the comments above regard me), but I didn't call for the deletion of the entry. I was given to understand when we have a problem with an entry, posting concerns here is the best action, so that's what I did. Anchoress 05:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It is, but only after you've discussed the issue in a civil manner with the author (on their talk page), and gotten no results in that manner. StuRat 05:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, well I'm not going to do that with LC, so if I have a problem with his edits I'll be bringing them here. Anchoress 06:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

(Response to Anchoress after ed. conflict)

Yes, achieving consensus is the rule for the website hosted on the servers that belong to Wikimedia Foundation. -THB

05:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

How is that a response to me? Anchoress 05:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I was agreeing with your statement and expanding on it. Deletion is not the process, it's discussion and achieving census. -THB 05:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The same page WP:NOT says this:

Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. Anyone reading Misplaced Pages can edit an article and the changes are displayed instantaneously without any checking to ensure appropriateness, so Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements. While obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site) is usually removed immediately, some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the article about pornography) and provided they do not violate any of our existing policies (especially Neutral point of view), nor the law of the U.S. state of Florida, where Misplaced Pages's servers are hosted.

Also, I do not believe that Light current is "testing the limits of anarchy". -THB 05:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages is still not a forum for unregulated free speech. Pages have purposes. -- SCZenz 05:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If I was an anarchist why would I have spent so much time contributing to articles over the past 16 months before coming here. I would have gone straight to the policy pages and tried to undermine them. Thats how to be an anarchist:destroy all the rules. I am actually pro rules. I just like to know what they are thats all.--Light current 05:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreement on removal

I agree that it should have been removed, but by Light current, and perhaps not at all if even after this discussion he had decided to leave it. It was not completely off-topic, nor blantantly offensive, to the degree that it needed to be censored by deletion on sight. -THB 05:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. StuRat 05:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I finally figured out what bothers me about the removal: it implies that if asked, reasonably and with explanation, the presumption is that Light current would not have removed it himself. -THB

I would certainly have at least amended it to remove the emphasis on females since it apparently cuased offence to one of the RD editors.--Light current 06:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed again. Unnecessary escalation is both rude and nonproductive. The proper procedure should be followed:

1) First, mention the post on the author's talk page, and politely list your objection, and request that they remove it.

2) If they refuse, and if the comment is so outrageous as to warrant further action, then bring it up here, again politely.

3) If a consensus is reached here to remove it, then the author can again be given the opportunity to remove the comment. At this, point, however, once community consensus exists that it should be removed, other members of the community may delete the comment, if the author refuses.

4) If, and only if, the author replaces the comment three times, should an Admin be summoned, via a 3RR violation complaint. StuRat 06:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

There are also grounds for a "speedy deletion" by anyone, such as death threats, etc., but only the most severe cases warrant such actions. And, even in these cases, the author should still be notified of the deletion (on their talk page) and the reason (policy violations) given. StuRat 06:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

HMM seems fair enough.--Light current 06:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should also discuss the reasons to do things according to the above procedure:

a) To be polite. Politeness goes a long way.

b) To avoid "revert wars". (If a comment is removed without consensus having been reached to do so, then the author is entirely justified to disagree with the opinion of the person who removed it and restore the comment.)

c) To avoid a POV bias in the removals. For example, a politically liberal editor might tend to delete any slightly off topic politically conservative comments, and vice-versa, even though they would leave such comments in if they were more in line with their political ideology. This could escalate to having all liberal statements removed by conservatives, and vice-versa, even if entirely on-topic.

d) To avoid personal vendettas in the removals. That is "you removed my post, so I'll remove yours". If a consensus is required for such removals, this type of petty behavior is unlikely.

StuRat 06:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm seems eminently sensible so far. Are you feeling quite well Stu? 8-)--Light current 06:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sounds very well thought out and reasonable. That's the way I thought it worked already, anyway. -THB 06:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah theoretically maybe. But its just what we need to codify so that everyones singing from the same hymn sheet--Light current 06:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree on purpose

I also agree that pages have a purpose and the purpose is not unregulated free speech. I also believe that instead of strict rules, self-restraint and peer discussion are preferable and more in the spirit of Misplaced Pages. -THB 05:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, with the provision that the question asker can request "strict rules" by including the template. Otherwise, they should not apply. StuRat 05:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You never know Stu, some people may actually prefer the strict regime!--Light current 06:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

$0.02

Somebody came over to my talk page and suggested I weigh in. The Reference desk isn't as encyclopedic as the rest of Misplaced Pages. It's a place where people feel free to come and ask questions, including questions they would feel kind of silly about asking in real life. Some of the posts don't qualify as real questions and get deleted or ignored, but something that's on topic - even if it's poorly worded and reads like it endorses a prejudice - is probably better left on the page. Post beneath it to your heart's content: skewer its ignorance and demonstrate how foolish it is. Be so witty that people laugh out loud when they read the page That idea is out there in the world and deletion won't challenge it, but real open discussion of why something isn't worth valuing might change some minds. So somebody wants to discuss Girls Gone Wild (I roll my eyes and groan as I type that), go ahead and ask that. The videos sell to the kind of mentality that gapes and mutters b - o - o - b - i - e - s and probably drools on the floor because they can't get close to a genuine woman. A fair number of women stay away from guys who go for that sort of thing, not because these women are prudes but because they think those guys are idiotic. Okay, 'nuff said. Durova 15:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the point entirely. The discussion here is habitual question-answers, who ought to know better, using the reference desk as a discussion forum. For example, in the case of the allusion to Girls Gone Wild and similar, a user had asked a simple question about smiling in photographs; there was no sexual content to the question whatsoever, but there was sexual content to the reply. I don't think people will feel "free to come and ask questions" if, no matter what they ask, they might be interrupted for a penis joke or a rant on an editor's personal views. Misplaced Pages does not host discussion forums, it is not a forum for unregulated free speech, and it does not allow biting new users (as you seem to suggest in the case of stupid questions). Can you do a more careful reading of the issues here and consider addressing them more directly? -- SCZenz 16:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If someone asks a factual question about Girls Gone Wild, we should of course answer it. -- SCZenz 16:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Disrupting the reference desk to make a point

This edit is meta-comment about recent requests that LC keep his comments a bit more on topic. We need to keep meta-discussion on the ref desk talk page, please—when put on the reference desk itself, it gets in the way. -- SCZenz 03:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Whats good for the goose....So why isnt other peoples off topic posting remarked upon-- only mine?--Light current 03:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect it is because you do it most often, and because you tend to add comments that are both entirely off-topic and entirely without useful content. This is something, it would appear, that various people would like you to work on. By the way, I appreciate your choice to remove the remark I mentioned above. -- SCZenz 03:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I would contend that non of my posts is entirely off topic. Its just that people may need to use a bit more lateral thinking to make the connection. There are many posts on WP that are entirely w/o useful content according to some. But I do not set myself to judge.8-)--Light current 04:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"Disrupting... to make a point" is a serious accusation. I don't believe that that particular post could be classified as a disruption. -THB 04:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the phrase "chit chat" is hardly a serious disruption worthy of complaining about here. StuRat 05:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed it anyway. Its not worth making a big deal out of it. THanks for your concern. My point has been made 8-)--Light current 05:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

And I removed at least part of the comment your comment was commenting on. I took your point to heart. -THB 05:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

THanks I wasnt actually getting at you personally on the desk-- I just saw some chat and well... the rest is in the history 8-)--Light current 05:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I understood, but I am trying to improve my behavior. -THB 05:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Nevertheless my original comment was, in case you guys have really forgotten, that meta-discussion (especially frustrated sarcastic meta-discussion) gets in the way of the main page, and should be placed on this talk page instead. -- SCZenz 05:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you could reasonably ask for much more meta-discussion on this page at this hour than already exists! -THB 05:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Bear in mind that language is inherently point-making.

The only reason to use language, ever, is for its psychological effects (points). Even when speaking to oneself.

Running out the 'disruption to make a point' bugbear means you disapprove of what was said. Theavatar3 16:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm I think that is generally correct.--Light current 16:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Something Awful

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen SomethingAwful.com lately? --Shuttlebug 06:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Off topic!! 8-))--Light current 06:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't find the pages being discussed there here. Is that satire? It's quite effective if so. I can't tell the difference. -THB 06:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Who knows? Im past caring now!--Light current 06:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely brilliant parody. -THB 06:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It is, at bottom, mean-spirited. It hides it ever so well behind reasonableness, but at the end of the day, no one will be improved by going to SomethingAwful. At least the title is honest though. Theavatar3 16:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Something that annoys me

would it be at all possible to switch the order of the questions, such that the newest are at the top, and the oldest at the bottom? that would make my day, thnksIs it Steak?<Xiaden's Homepage> 14:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably not. The convention seems to be to add to the bottom of pages; and it can be quite a pain to edit in the pages of those contrarians who think it neat to seek to impose adding from the top: you always know where the bottom is, but the top is generally below a whole lot of descriptive text, which means you need to find it ... which is beyond some people & a waste of time. --Tagishsimon (talk)