Misplaced Pages

• Object. On the nominator's talk page I left examples from the lead of why the whole article needs serious copy-editing. I think that this nomination is premature. Here's another problem that my eyes landed on first thing scrolling down the article:
  • "On 5 August 1846, the first president Edward Thomson delivered his inaugural address in which he maintained that "the college was a product of the liberality of the people of Delaware and that it was fortunate that Ohio Wesleyan was founded in a community divided in religious and political opinions because the friction of a mixed society prevents dogmatism and develops energy and pointed that the spirit of the college is the spirit of liberty"." Now, is this a direct quote in its entirety? I ask, because it has the markers for an indirect quote ("and that ...", and "pointed that", which I guess should be "pointed out that ...").
  • "Only three of the past presidents are actually graduates"—spot the redundant word.
    • Fixed this one. Lovelac7 06:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • "Accounts on the school's first president Edward Thomson focus on flowing eloquence, interest in literature and philosophy."—on? Surely "of". Do you mean "his" flowing eloquence? And does this refer to his prose/oratory, or what? "And" should appear before "interest", then another "his". What a mess.

No, this needs serious work. Tony 11:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Conditional Support. Once we fix the issued on this page, I'll wholeheartedly support the nomination. In the mean time here's my 2¢:

• The university presidents section still needs some work. In particular, some aspects of the section refer to the role of the president's office, and other parts discuss past presidents' role in campus history. It might help if you separated the "People" section into "Administration" and "Alumni" subsections, moving at least some of the "Presidents" section there.
• Some of the OWU traditions probably aren't all that notable. Doesn't every school have a homecoming, convocation, and commencement, etc.? I'd rather hear about the traditions that are unique to your alma mater.

The community groups listed in the "Campus" section should go into the "student life" section. That's all I can think of for now. If I find anything else, I'll let you know. Lovelac7 06:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Object. I cannot support this article unless something is done about the activisim section, which is POV in its extreme selectivity and uncomprehensive in its focus on the last half decade. There is really nothing there that is not typical of any American university, and my preference would be to drop the section entirely. However, this can also be fixed by summarizing the types of protest activities undertaken by students throughout the existence of the University with references. Indrian 07:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Note that Indrian was aggrissively behind dropping an entire section that deals with one of OWU's most important communities these days: OWU's international students and an event that organized them against the school administration, an unfortunate consequence of how the former president handled a situation of a popular school administrator. Also, the fact that OWU has a large international student body, he argued, is not typical of any American university. I doubt that this is a community that swings strongly one way or another in American politics to infringe on someone's strong sense of ideology. In yet another one of his attempts, I was concerned about the homophobic underpinning of several of Indrian's reverts. More than a year ago, he was carefully taking out references with references to the LGBT community. This happened throughtout the article, not just the Activism section. Might it suggest that his aversion is not just to an entire section (i.e. Activism), but also to the state of affairs at OWU and the strong presence of particular groups? I feel extremely uncomfortable to suggest a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology see NPOV because Indrian went so far as to label my exchanges with him as personal attacks; they are unseemly. Faria 15:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • You have just made a personal attack right here, so labelling your past actions as personal attacks seems to be quite just. Now, please explain how including only five or six protests by just a few groups over the last few years is not POV since it excludes a large number of protests by groups over the hundred and fifty years of the university. Once again you just libel rather than doing anything constructive. I honestly do not know why I have not undertaken an RFC against you yet over this continued personal abuse. Indrian 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment. It saddens me that we are revisiting a topic that I thought was long settled. I wish not to engage in this exchange because when I do, you threaten me with an RFC, which is not constructive. I thought this is an argument about what constitutes Neutral point of view, not a personal exchange. Misplaced Pages guideliness published in the NPOV article prescribe rules on how to deal with competing views on a single subject. It states that To avoid endless edit wars, we can agree to present each of the significant views fairly and not assert any one of them as correct. I thought we did just that several months ago. Just to remind you that several users noticed that two sections were excessively referenced, a byproduct of an argument that you were part of and you pushed for not too long ago. I will be happy to provide references to activism by conservative groups on campus if activism by such groups does exist. The problem is, it is not happening. Perhaps even more importantly, Activism is the topic of debate at the Wesleyan Council of Student Affairs funding meetings, almost weekly The Transcript articles and Connect2OWU articles, all of which speak to the fact that activism is happening and is an important component of campus life. I will be more than happy to provide numerous references to the facts that I mentioned in my last sentence in reference to established Misplaced Pages guidelines on how to establish NPOV standards, Let the facts speak for themselves, Attributing and substantiating biased statements and Fairness of tone. Faria 19:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Just so we are clear here, you are engaging in defamation of character, misrepresentation, and repeated violation of wikipedia policies on personal attacks, civility, and assuming good faith. This is plenty of cause for arbitration or RFC, and I am not making threats. I plan to pursue one of these courses of action over the next couple of weeks. Your constant, baseless attacks on my character and your repeated misrepresentation of my actions will no longer be tolerated by me. I had hoped that putting some distance between past events would help, but you continue in your lies and libel. I have had it. That is all I will say on this subject here.

Now, as to the article. There is nothing wrong with the information that is currently in the activism section per se. However, this is a FA nomination. One of the criteria of a FA is that the article be comprehensive. When the activism section of an institution that has existed since the 1840s has virtually no information on activism before 2000, the section is not comprehensive, period. This can be cured by either making the section comprehensive with proper additions supported by references, or eliminating the section, which is not necessary to understand OWU itself. Virtually every American university has a large number of concerned students that engage in hundreds, if not thousands, of protests a year. Nothing in the Activism section as it exists now illustrates that OWU is somehow above average in this regard. It may be above average, but references are needed to prove that fact. As to POV, you have a very narrow and incorrect definition. This is not at all about Republican vs. Democrat or liberal vs. conservative. The current article is POV because of the potentially dozens of activists campaigns undertaken by OWU students a year, which I am sure are overwhelmingly liberal, there are only four or five protests taken from a five or six year period actually mentioned in the article. No evidence is given that these are represetative protests or issues dear to the majority of active protestors on campus. We are not even given numbers of students involved. For all we know, these protests attracted a dozen students while a different protest on, say, AIDS in Africa or global warming attracted a hundred. As a result, the article only shows what issues are improtant to the person who posted the particular events and are therefore POV. These are valid objections that are actionable, and libellous attacks on my character does not change that fact. Indrian 20:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• • • Faria you may have just cost this nomination its FA status. I personally agree with Indrian on the POV and the lack of older cases. And responding to his legitimate concern by bringing up an old debate in the depth and detail that you did makes me question the reliability/stability/balance of the article. You could have simply pointed out past disputes and refered everybody to the discussion and let us evaluate for ourselves, instead you've added credence to his position and weakened your own credibility.Balloonman 21:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Indrian, since I am the nominator of the article and a person who have put a lot of time in improving the article recently, I would like to step in and ask you, you mentioned As a result, the article only shows what issues are improtant to the person who posted the particular events and are therefore POV, what issues are important and are not represented in the Activism section? WikiprojectOWU 21:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • First, let me say that I applaud the work you have been doing on this article and other articles related to OWU over the past several months. Your hard work has gone a long way towards making this article informative and balanced. As to the issue of activism, I wish I could be of more help. I do not claim to know what issues have been especially important to OWU students over the course of the institution's history, nor do I know the specifics about the level of activism in general. All I can do is tell you what I would like to see. If the activism section is removed, I do not think it does great harm to the article, as this is a common facet of American universities and therefore does not present a unique understanding of OWU. Now, I am not saying that such a section offends me; just that if that section cannot be made comprehensive then it can be removed to satisfy my concerns. If the section is to stay, it needs to become more general. For example (and none of the following is based on actual facts so please do not put it in the article), the section could say that "In the 1960s, OWU students, like many students across the nation, were strongly against the Vietnam War and engaged in numerous protests that mobilized as many as 500 individuals, with the largest gathering taking place on December 18, 1967." This could then be backed up by references in the Transcript or Delware Gazette that illustrate such protests were taking place and how many people they attracted. For the 2000s, one could research the Transcript and Gazette to compile a complete list of protests engaged in by students over those years, determine which issues garnered the most protests and student support, and then use this research to state what issues are particularly important to students today. I realize that this may be beyond what you are able to accomplish during the FA period, or even at anytime, but I feel that any FA article must be backed up by thorough research of the appropriate primary and secondary sources. An activism section which merely states that X students protested Y action on Z day, wash, rinse, repeat, does nothing to illuminate how activism works on the campus in general and therefore prevents the section from being comprehensive or NPOV. Something that may be more realiztic during the period of the FA would be to compile a list of activist groups on campus and give a small overview of the areas they operate in and one or two specific examples to illustrate the point. I hope that helps. Indrian 21:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)