Talk:Ruhollah Khomeini - Misplaced Pages

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Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to fail. the new article remain.Saff V. (talk) 06:47, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

@Rosguill: plz provide reasons to merge?

Comment: Ruhollah Khomeini's article is too long and it is necessary to be shortened. In addition, Ruhollah Khomeini's life in exile is extremely notable and supported by RS used in the article.I believe that none of four reasons is not true for this.Saff V. (talk) 14:24, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

@Saff V.: it seems like a case of overlap to me, and this article already has a fairly detailed discussion of Ruhollah Khomeini's exile–I was under the impression that merging the articles would only add a few paragraphs of length here, and would avoid creating a fork and having two separately maintained accounts of Khomeini's exile. _signed,Rosguill 17:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

There is no overlap or creating fork, in fact, the part of life in exile in Ruhollah Khomeini article is split into a new one, the Ruhollah Khomeini's life in exile. If you think that some material is same, (according to Splitting) you can move them into the new article and make that one shorter.Saff V. (talk) 06:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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New sanctions

Trump has announced new sanctions against him. --Auric talk 18:06, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Nobody:

America: places sanctions on a man who died in 1989

Cinefan Cinefan (talk) 18:14, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Anti-communism category

Albeit I did add Adolf Hitler and Margaret Thatcher to this category, since then I've realized that I don't really think specific people should be added to this category. Yes, they were staunchly anti-communist, but maybe something like could better fit? Cinefan Cinefan (talk) 16:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Staunch anti-communists seem to be most closely connected to the Anti-communism cat. I think the more nuanced Critics of Marxism is less relevant — a bit too scholarly and not mainstream enough. El_C 18:22, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Pov issue

@Stefka Bulgaria: the edit include the pov issue and undue weight problem. while it was mentioned that "Revolutionary Tribunals" had been the part of campaign to cleanse the society in this source, or in another source it was brought that Khomeini retorted that they were accused but were in factguilty, Abrahamian described that the aim of creation of the "Revolutionary Tribunals" was to continue implementing their version of the Shari’a, which is just pov of him and gives undue weight to article, because some sources (as I gathered) are opposite of it. Saff V. (talk) 12:04, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I just included a quote from a reliable source and author (Ervand Abrahamian is an Iranian historian). I think the statement is perfectly valid. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@Stefka Bulgaria: Not only I did not say anything about the reliability of Abrahamian source, but also I am going to point to wp:due which demand that Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints (based on their weight) that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. As I brought material from other sources, there are various viewpoints about "Revolutionary Tribunals" but you just mentioned Abrahamian's idea.Saff V. (talk) 06:51, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

@Saff V., if you've found material from other sources, just add them to the article. As long as they meet WP:RS, then they will be ok for inclusion. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:21, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

what is the relation

@HistoryofIran: Please read carefully the edit summary, I did not say anything about the reliability of the source. I did not see any relation between 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations and Khomeini? I wonder if you could explain it.Saff V. (talk) 13:40, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I very well read your summary, and I never implied that you questioned the reliability of the source. They are clearly related as they have something to do with his reforms. Look, I'm not here to constantly hold your hand and explain things to you - WP:COMPETENCE, I've lost count of how many times I've linked this to you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:43, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: I need your insight here, recently new section titled Homosexuality has been created in the article, but there is some material has nothing to do with the Homosexuality , for instance, these courts executed over 100 drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, rapists, and adulterers on the charge of "sowing corruption on earth or In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations. It is the first issue with that.

Secondly, the source of these two claims Soon after the 1979 revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini established the death penalty for homosexuality. In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations is this book that the author referred the claim to another book. It is more interesting that in the footnote 31 of the later book, p.292 , the author has used email exchanges as a source of information! Can we rely on this and include material with such an unreliable source? Thanks!Saff V. (talk) 07:05, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

There is also a good New York Times source that includes a direct interview with Khomeini that we can include in this section. I will try to include it later today. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:21, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

There is any thing about the death penalty for homosexuality ordered by Khomeini in the interview published by New York Times. Please be more careful! In other hand the interview was recorded on 12 September 1979, how can this so close source to the event support the death penalty for homosexuality? Saff V. (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

The section is not only about the death penalty for homosexuality, but homosexuality as a whole under Khomeini's rule. Please stop asking me to "be more careful" for adding reliable sources to the article. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:52, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff, your POV is showing (again), please consider your words more carefully and stop causing something out of nothing, it's getting rather boring at this rate. This looks a big case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT as well. This is what occured under Khomeiminis leadership, whether you like it or not. Last but not least, you have been told by various users in the Reliable noticeboard that the source is reliable, end off. HistoryofIran (talk)

@Saff V.: History books are always written based on less reliable primary information. The reliability derives not from the original source, but from the author's responsibility to verify it, and from the publisher's repsonsibility to fact-check what they are publishing. As such, I see no reason to discount this source, unless another equally weighty source has challenged that assertion. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: thanks for comment but how about the source of this two claims exactly, it is the email clearly.Saff V. (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, if the author says that in their own voice, it's reliable; if it's contentious it may require in-text attribution at the most. If the author is saying "an email said" that might be different. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:40, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Can You look at this, It is not the author's voice. Isn't it?Saff V. (talk) 14:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

No, that's not in the author's voice. The use of that quote as a source would depend on the reliability of the footnote for it. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:Thanks for the comment, The footnote is "Afary, Janet and Anderson, Kevin: Foucault and the Iranian Revolution: Gender and the Seductions of Islam. Chicago 2005, p. 161". At that book the footnote for these two claims is "Some of this information is based on an e-mail exchange with Goudarz Eghtedari (Iran). For a discussion of this issue, see Sanasarian 2000 and various issues of the journal Homan (1999–2001). For more information on the Iranian GLB movement, see the website for Homan: The Group to Defend the Rights of Iranian Gays and Lesbians, www.homan.cwc.net. For literature on Iranian lesbians, see www.geocities.com/khanaeyedoost. According to Duran, “homosexual assault is frequently used by the police of repressive regimes, such as the SAVAK during the reign of the Shah of Iran or its successor, SAVAMA, the dreaded security organ of the Khomeini government” (1993, 187)."Saff V. (talk) 15:59, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, that second source (Afary et al) looks quite reliable to me. That should be the one that is used. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V. also forgot to mention that he took this to WP:RSN already where he was told repeatedly the source was reliable. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:09, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:sorry to bother you by various pinging, but in Afra authors mentioned in the footnote that "Some of this information is based on an e-mail exchange with Goudarz Eghtedari (Iran)."at least doesn’t it need attribution?Saff V. (talk) 16:12, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The authors don't seem to be reporting it, they seem to be saying it in their own voice. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Khomeini's wife

I've found several sources that say Khomeini's wife was "Batul Saqafi, a ten year old daughter of an ayatollah." This seems to contradict with what's currently in the article. Any insights on this? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

References

@Stefka Bulgaria: Should deffo be added somewhere, also see this btw --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

There is not anything about Batul Saqafi in the provided source. As wp:UNDUE demanded, "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all". A plenty of sources confirmed his only wife was Khadije Sqafi.Saff V. (talk) 15:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff, they have the same last names - they're the same person. Khadijeh Saqafi was known by more than one name. She was indeed his only wife, which means that the 10 year old girl was her, which the other source also confirms. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:35, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

The more I read about Khomeini, the more I'm finding the article is missing a lot of significant information. Will start to add some of it, but feel free to comment if I've gotten something wrong. Thanks Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:37, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I propose the following text based on the available sources:

Some sources claim that Khomeini married Sagafi when she was ten years old, while others claim she was fifteen years old.

Objections? (@Winged Blades of Godric:?) Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:42, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

References

Thomas M. Leonard (2005). Encyclopedia of the Developing World. Routledge. p. 909. ISBN 978-1579583880.
Diane Morgan (2005). Essential Islam: A Comprehensive Guide to Belief and Practice. Praeger. p. 165. ISBN 978-0313360251.
Ervand Abrahamian (2005). Khomeinism: Essays on the Islamic Republic. UNIV OF CALIFORNIA. p. 8. ISBN 978-0520085039.

Decision which they were made at Khomeini’s time

The source belongs to a self-publishing company and not an expert author was used by Stefka who concern using self-publishing source. Anyway, the current text which is Under Khomeini's age of marriage turns to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boys. I am going to say, there is a lot of decisions which were made in Khomeini's time, but Khomeini's article in Misplaced Pages is not true place to mention them. Is it?In other words, it is an article (1, 2, 3 ) proved when Khomeini was the leader and he did not play serious role to make them. @Vanamonde93: can you give your opinion?Saff V. (talk) 19:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V., I provided a number of sources that back up these statements, not just that one. You should have just removed the source you had an issue with, and not the other well-sourced material that you removed from the article. About adding more context to Khoemini's decision-making in the matter, Vanamonde93 already gave you a final warning about removing text just because you think it's missing information: "If the completeness of the material was an issue, the appropriate response is to add the missing information. If the reliability of a source is an issue, the correct response is to replace it, or at the very least, to request a better citation via a tag." Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 19:39, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V., you also removed this " source from the article, which clearly supports the statement you removed in your following edit ("marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.”"). Why? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@Stefka, Can you say what is the source of these material? One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power was to lower the age of marriage from eighteen to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boys. Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.” “Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.” You have to pick up self-published source and material belongs to it. As well as I look at this source and could not find anything to supportadded material by Stefka. It's better to provide the material of the mentioned book to support his edit . Please don't warn me to remove RS from the article while the source of this sentence {tq| One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power was to lower the age of marriage from eighteen to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boys}} which you reverted is self published source.Saff V. (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Okay, dial it back immediately, both of you; mudslinging here isn't the way to resolve this. Stefka, regardless of what Saff V. has done, using an SPS isn't okay; people have been tbanned for it. The burden of ensuring the reliability of a source you use is on you. The other source isn't necessarily unreliable; but I don't have access to the source. Stefka, can you provide a quote? Vanamonde (Talk) 20:11, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:, let me know if you can access these references (which were all included in the article):

"One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power was to lower the age of marriage from eighteen to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boy":

"Under Khomeini, child marriage was allowed once more, with the age of marriage being reduced from 18 to nine for girls (revised, after protests, to 13) and 15 for boys. New laws encourage polygamy and prevented women from leaving abusive husbands. The husband’s right of unilateral divorce was reinstated. New policies encouraged temporary marriage as ‘morally sanctioned substitute for Western dating’, with trial ‘sigheh’ marriages recommended for high-school students, and sex workers being invited to enter short-term marriage contracts with returning war veterans"

I.B.Tauris

"Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.”:

"In many of his works Khomeini himself strongly recommends pre-menstruation marriage as "a divine blessing." "Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house," he write in Tawzih al-Masayel"

Adler & Adler Pub

"Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.":

"Khomeini called marriage to a girl before her first menstrual period "a divine blessing," and he advised the faithful: "Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house."

Encounter Books

Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 20:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

But this source was not used at this revert. As well as the reliability of source belongs to Encounter Books which known for publishing conservative authors should be checked. In addition, the second quote belongs to page 35, not 34!Saff V. (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll just keep to the point in the hopes of avoiding the usual confusing bludgeoning: Saff V. removed the following from the article:

"One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power was to lower the age of marriage from eighteen to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boys."
"Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.”
"“Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.”"

As I showed in my previous edit, all these statements were backed by RSs. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the sources provided here on the talk page are adequate for the content they were used for, although that tidbit about the age of marriage being raised after protest should be included for neutrality. Stefka Bulgaria, these are the sources you should have provided at the outset. The Xulon source isn't acceptable, and further use of such sources may be grounds for sanction. Saff V., can you explain why, in this diff, you claim to be removing content cited to an SPS, even though you are also removing additional information at the same time? Vanamonde (Talk) 02:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Doesn't this and this diff show that I did add these sources at the outset? I also removed the Xulon source once I saw it was self-published. Having said that, I'll be more careful with checking for self-published sources.Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:01, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:, In this diff I just pikced up this material "One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power "/Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.” “Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.” backed by SPS.

Stefka reverted my edit while this statment "One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power" does not support with any of provided sources!Saff V. (talk) 06:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

How about the use of goodreads as source into the article?!Saff V. (talk) 07:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V., that's not good enough. You removed two pieces of content in this diff. One of them had other sources supporting it, and the SPS wasn't even used for that content. Do that again, and you are looking at a page ban, at the very least. Both of you: I am absolutely sick of the whataboutism in this thread. Another editor's mistakes are no excuse for your own; and trying to use them as such is an indication that you shouldn't be editing such a contentious topic. I am very close to giving both of you a page ban just for that behavior, and I will be monitoring this discussion to see that it doesn't get off the rails again. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:25, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:I didn't deliberately remove this source material. I was checking this edit. But I didn't realize another source was added. I am sorry and I know I have to be more careful. In another hand, you say about stefka's edits that The other source isn't necessarily unreliable; but Amir Taheri's work is self-published.Saff V. (talk) 07:22, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Unrelated and Duplicated Material

There is some material has nothing to do with the article:

There is no relation between Homosexuality and these courts executed over 100 drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, rapists, and adulterers on the charge of "sowing corruption on earth" while the section is included Soon after the 1979 revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini established the death penalty for homosexuality OR Ayatollah Khomeini affirmed in 1979 that the execution of homosexuals (as well as prostitutes and adulterers) was justified in a moral society as the amputation of the gangrenous flesh.
Does anyone can explain to me what has nothing to do this sentence In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations with Khomeini?
As well as this sentence According to Robert Spencer, "this practice continues to this day, despite the severe injuries girls often incur from early intercourse and childbirth.", Are we allowed to bring all of the effects of laws that were made at Khomeini's time?Saff V. (talk) 07:22, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I think "Khomeini then created the "Revolutionary Tribunals". According to historian Ervand Abrahamian, Khomeini encouraged the clerical courts to continue implementing their version of the Shari’a. As part of the campaign to "cleanse" the society, these courts executed over 100 drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, rapists, and adulterers on the charge of "sowing corruption on earth."" does not fit into that subsection and would better be moved to another suitable place. --Mhhossein 09:00, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Don't sources specifically say that this pertains to Khomeini's orders once he took power? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:45, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Not only does he not say anything about source's support, but he also says it should move to a more relevant section. Please do not divert the discussion.Saff V. (talk) 09:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

It is just law not order of Khomeini

As to law of the marriage age, I am going to say, there is a lot of decisions which were made in Khomeini's time, but Khomeini's article in Misplaced Pages is not true place to mention them. Is it? In other words, it is an article (1, 2, 3 ) proved when Khomeini was the leader and he did not play a serious role to make them. It is an article of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran which was adopted by referendum on 2 and 3 December 1979.Saff V. (talk) 08:25, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

His actions, which should be mentioned in his article. End off. --HistoryofIran (talk) 08:32, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Please do not end sentences with the infantile "end of" (sic) or for that matter "period" here. A discussion is not over because you stamp your foot and say it is. Britmax (talk) 09:12, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read what's been going on this article and others. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:13, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

It is just his thought, not action!Saff V. (talk) 08:57, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Tahrir al-Wasilah

@Winged Blades of Godric: you called this section as a TRASH.Do you agree with moving the following material of the section to Tahrir al-Wasilah? How about removing?

In his book, Tahrirolvasyleh, Khomeini wrote about his views on sex, "specifically sex with a nine-year-old child and how much to pay or not to pay for damaging the child’s vagina, or whether to marry or not to marry her as a ‘Siqueh’ (a temporary wedding)." Khomeini said in an official statement that “A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by Sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. The girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives…. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.” In a different statement, Khomeini said that “it is not illegal for an adult male to ‘thigh’ or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of waning." Saff V. (talk) 13:20, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Saff V., I have rewritten the section in entirety. ∯WBG 13:30, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

More high quality sources over here, here and here. ∯WBG 13:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Khomeini's contact with the US

Following the section "Khomeini's contact with the US" was created, there is some issues:

At first, The title of the section should be changed to "the allegation of Khomeini's contact with the US", Because just BBC reveals documents and also the guardian wrote that The Guardian did not have access to the newly declassified documents and was not able to independently verify them as well as In contrast to his later tirades against the “Great Satan”.I think that regardless of changing the title, as wp:weight demanded, there is no need to devote a section just for a report of BBC!

Secondly, I think that this sentence According to The Guardian, the US had extensive contact with Khomeini prior to the Iran revolution does not support by the guardian which wrote that The Guardian did not have access to the newly declassified documents and was not able to independently verify them.Vanamonde93, I wonder if you take look and leave your opinion. Thanks!Saff V. (talk) 09:06, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

The BBC report on this is based on "a trove of newly declassified US government documents - diplomatic cables, policy memos, meeting records". In other words, this is not based on allegations but on concrete documentation.

The Guardian's article title is "US had extensive contact with Ayatollah Khomeini before Iran revolution", so it's clearly supported by the source. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:31, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

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