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Discussion

High school drop out

How the hell did he drop out of high school, if he went to college? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.131.124 (talk • contribs)

You have to remember that this is in the pre-SAT days and not finishing high school wouldn't necessarily bar you from admission to college (especially if you had a good reason for not finishing, as Einstein did). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.86.187 (talk • contribs)

Being in pre-SAT days does not really have anything to do with it, since the rules for admission to University in Switzerland haven't changed much since then. While Einstein dropped out of high school in Germany, he went back and finished high school in Switzerland, thus making sure he would be allowed to go to University (see the article). Schutz 06:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah but maybe it was because he was smart that he didn't have to

Geeman's comments on "Jewish"

I've just reread Geeman's comments in the archive about wanting to put the words "Jewish" into the opening paragraph on Einstein. On balance I think this is a good idea for clarity and I support it. A good way of overcoming all the objections against it is to see the phrasing for a similar case in the article on Solomon Lefschetz where it says that Lefschetz was "born in Moscow into a Jewish family (his parents were Turkish citizens) who moved shortly after that to Paris." Isn't that so simple? This phrasing is particularly clever because the phrase "Jewish family" gets out of all the problems of religious and nationalistic labels (which I agree we should avoid in the case of Einstein's "Jewishness"). Therefore I support a similar phrasing in the opening paragraph of Einstein. If there are no objections, I'll go ahead and make this correction in 5 days time so you guys have time to sleep on it. bunix 22:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It already says he was born to a Jewish family in the first sentence after the intro. Personally I don't think his "Jewishness" or "Germanness" are important enough to put in the intro, but we include the nationality for the sake of convention. I would support fewer labels in the intro (removing "German-born", but not adding more. Kaldari 23:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is in the intro...but not in the top lead paragraph....which is what I think Geeman was refering to. Geeman can you comment? I support the inclusion of these labels. Such labels are there for every other biography on the wikipedia...just because Einstein's case is a little more complicated than average doesn't mean we should shirk from the challenge of finding a succinct way of putting it across. We can collaborate to find the optimal wording. bunix 06:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

“Such labels are there for every other biography on the wikipedia.” Really? How about Michelson, Oppenheimer, Feynman, Gell-Mann, Weinberg, and Witten. None of them is labeled as “Jewish” in the lead paragraph. I think the lead paragraph of a biography (and the other paragraphs above the Contents) should summarize what is most notable about the subject. I would, however, support mentioning his Jewishness in the Nationality field of the Infobox. --teb728 06:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC) As for the Lefschetz biography, that article does not yet have multiple sections; so it does not yet have a summary header. --teb728 06:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm happy to comment, bunix. Thanks for the invitation... :) First off, let's establish a few things. There is a convention in the bios of WP to state the person's national origin, background and affiliations in the first sentence. That's useful because it gives us a quick reference to the personality and cultural heritage of the person. In most cases nation of origin is not really pertinent to the person him/herself with certain obvious exceptions like politicians, rulers or soldiers. It's just a nice way for us to get a quick handle on the person's identity. In other cases, though, it is more significant. For many biographies of scientists their cultural/religious background really isn't particularly important to their personalities or their lives, but for others it is very important. For instance, if one didn't mention Oppenheimer was American in the intro to his biography one would be really missing the point of his relevance to 20th century history. Imagine for a moment that Oppenheimer had faced racial discrimation as part of his later troubles and that he wrote a book on Zionism, was considered for posts in Israel, etc. Wouldn't it be worth noting his background in the intro sentence then? The problem with Einstein, of course, is that his Jewish ancestry influenced his life so directly but he was also a complex guy whose personal identity was more paradoxical than most. He was born a German, but through sense and circumstance left Germany (both physically and legally.) He was born a Jew but through intellect and inclination did not practice that faith overtly, though many people (myself included) would argue that he remained culturally very Jewish. Both of those things were a huge influence on his life and appear dramatically throughout his biography. The words "German" or "Jew/Jewish" each appear over a dozen times in the body of the article, not including the text box and category listings. If he were not born a Jew in Germany he'd probably not have left (and how might the world have changed?) Even if he hadn't written a book on Jewish topics, how many people were offered leading positions in Israel? Simply describing him as German and/or Jewish (or worse calling him Swedish or American as others have done) stumbles over the whole purpose of that introductory sentence because it is at best vague and at worst a deliberate misrepresentation of the truth.

Before I hop off my high horse, let me comment that I think the issue here is that we should try to have in the opening sentence a description that is as accurate as possible and that introduces the rest of the biography as elegantly as we can. For Einstein, I think the substance and complexity evident in the rest of the article warrants some more care in the opening sentence, and if that makes for language that qualifies itself then all the better because Einstein himself was very much about such qualification. I understand that a lot of folks would (idealistically, I believe) prefer to ignore the issue of nationality and religion. (Let's not kid ourselves about not having an agenda here, shall we? Nobody participates in an encyclopedia without one....) I'll buy that as far as it goes because I think it has an essentially noble motivation, and in many cases is really truthful in addition to being an expression of tolerance. In this case, though, such a method winds up doing more harm than good because it isn't truthful and degrades the tolerance of Einstein as expressed by the circumstances of his background. Doesn't it seem odd that the current introduction parses his profession into "theoretical physicist" in order to distinguish him from experimental physicists, qualifies his place of birth by saying he was "German-born" yet ignores his Jewish ancestry? IMO we should try for a sentence that most accurately describes the man, and one that does not mention his Jewish ancestry fails to do that.

All that said, I'd like a little more support or substantive refutation of these ideas before making such changes. Perhaps we should just go ahead and make them though and see how long it takes before they are reverted in order to get some idea what people think about it. Geeman 05:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with most of what Geeman says—except perhaps his conclusion. I’m not opposed in principle to mentioning Jewishness in the intro, but I see two problems:

• One is stability. The “German-born” label has remained stable for some time. I fear that if you change it, that would open the door to those who want to label him in addition or instead as “Swiss” and/or “American.” (You can see from the archive that there is sentiment in that favor.)
• The other problem is conciseness. You presumably want to add this to the first sentence, which is already pretty full. Adding more than a word or two would make for unwieldy prose. I don’t care at all for bunix’s suggestion of introducing Jewishness indirectly, for it is inherently wordy. I wonder if a solution might be to add a third paragraph to the intro, summarizing the non-scientific things he is noted for, and mention Jewishness there.

Although his Jewishness is marginally notable, if someone is reading the intro only, they can do without a mention of Jewishness. If they are reading more, its mention at the top of the biography proper, is sufficient. I suggest we leave it at that. --teb728 03:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This argument has been going on for a long time now, with reversion wars etc. along the way. There is a whole (overly long) article for getting into details and influences; the intro should be just enough to orient readers who don't already know anything about the subject (which may be an empty set when it comes to Einstein). The only reason that "German-born" was retained was that it explains why there is a German-language pronunciation link immediately beforehand. Everybody wants to claim Einstein as a member of their particular tribe, which if we try to accommodate that in the intro leads to a ridiculous-looking result. (We also had that with regard to national flags in the infobox.) — DAGwyn 20:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Of the counter-arguments presented above I think the most compelling is the conciseness issue. The remaining arguments strike me as being variations on a theme: that adding information to the existing "German-born" description will lead to a series of edits in which people will, for the sake of their own agendas, try to lay claim to Einstein. My counter-arguments to those counter-arguments:

Regarding Conciseness: Unfortunately, there is no single word that adequately describes a German-born, expatriated, non-dogmatic Jew. Wouldn't it be nice if we could just say "Agnostigebrew" or something? :) In his native tongue, of course, we could probably slap a few words together to create one of those Germanic lingual monstrosities that even included his profession ("Einstein was an Ausdeutcherjudenphysiker who....) but, sadly, English is a rather blunt tool. The problem, though, is that where some folks may see the current intro as concise others I see it as incomplete. In fact, the "German-born" descriptor is really more confused than concise. Isn't the logical next step in the conciseness argument to be even more concise and simply say "German" rather than "German-born" and if someone wanted more information about his later nationalities they should turn to the body of the article? I don't think that's the way to go. "German-born" is more truthful to the man for all that it is less concise. But "German-born" is only half-truthful because it ignores the reason for his emigration: his Jewish ancestry. Since Einstein was such a complex guy we're just not going to be clear, accurate AND concise all at once unless someone somehow manages to come up with the linguistic equivalent of Relatively where E=Einstein, M=Maternity and C=Culture.... We're just going to have to accept that limitation (like the speed of light--since I'm going nuts with the physics metaphors.)

Regarding Stability and Laying Claim to Einstein I appreciate that folks like stability in WP articles, but I would argue that we should be less concerned with stability and those who lay claim to someone's legacy than we are with the accuracy of the article. Yes, I know there are Americans and Swiss who want to lay claim to Einstein in one way or another, and they are certainly welcome to make their arguments. We should give those arguments due consideration when they inevitably crop up. I'm equally certain there are a large number of Jews who claim Einstein as one of their own in ways that Einstein himself would find highly disagreeable. However, the fear of additional edits and opening up the issue to the whole nationalistic muddle should not be used as a counter to the argument about whether Einstein should or should not be defined in the opening sentence of his WP article as being of Jewish ancestry. The question is whether it more accurately describes him than the current text.

I also disagree with the suggestion that "German-born" only remains in the article in order to explain the German pronunciation of Einstein's name. Mentioning the national origin and major affiliation of a person in the opening sentence of the WP biography is so common as to be a template.

A more legitimate way of dealing with the issue is to have a note in the plaintext of the article asking those who would edit it away from "German-born" and "Jewish ancestry" (or whatever terms wind up being used) to please look to the talk page and present their arguments there before making a change. As it is, the Einstein page seems to get vandalized fairly regularly, and there are plenty of folks monitoring it, so we can certainly deal with folks who might be able to actually muster an argument to support their agenda. Geeman 06:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I was the last one (modulo reversions) to edit the nationality portion of the intro, so the reason I gave for retaining the (long-standing) "German-born" is first-hand. "German" can't be used for conciseness, simply because it's a wrong characterization. One nice aspect of "-born" is it hints at a more complicated nationality, which is in fact exhibited later in the article. — DAGwyn 21:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

atomic bomb

I always heard that EInstein had invented the atomic bomb while working in a top secret area of America is this true? If so where? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.125 (talk • contribs)

I don't know where you heard that, but you shouldn't trust them as an information source. The role played by Einstein in the development of the atomic bomb was twofold: (a) the physics of nuclear fission had been materially advanced by Einstein's earlier theoretical work, e.g. the principle of mass-energy equivalence; (b) at the outset of WWII, Einstein was persuaded to sign the Einstein-Szilárd letter to the President of the US urging that the US mount an effort to develop an atomic weapon before the Germans. That was the impetus for the Manhattan Project, which was the actual development effort (in which Einstein played no part). — DAGwyn 00:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It's really only one-fold. Einstein didn't do anything with nuclear physics. E=mc^2 comes into play but not in any way Einstein would have known about at the time he postulated it. His biggest role was the letter, and even if he had not written that the Manhattan Project probably would have begun independently a few years later (and the project that was created by his letter didn't amount to much of anything). --Fastfission 00:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: I didn't say that Einstein worked in the area of nuclear physics; I chose my wording carefully. DAGwyn 20:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Notable prizes

Every time I add the Copley Medal to the notable prizes section of the infobox, SuperGirl removes it. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Kaldari 23:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think SuperGirl usurps too much authority; I recall her saying on past occasions that there was a "consensus" for this or that (always in favor of her personal opinion) when opinion was actually substantially divided. The Copley Medal is a prestigious award, comparable to the Fields Medal in mathematicians, which we would expect to see noted.

It seems like a "notable" enough "prize" to keep in the infobox to me.... Supergirl: Why are you removing it? Is it against some infobox list or template? Geeman 05:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I originally added that prize to the infobox and was later shocked to see it removed. --68.224.247.53 05:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Since there is a consensus, I'll add it. --Kasparov 05:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Summation Convention

No mention of the Einstein Summation convention, not his most important work, but maybe could be included? (this thing is at: Einstein notation) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.111.8.103 (talk • contribs) .

Feel free to add a link in the "appendices" to the article; it isn't significant enough to mention in the main body. — DAGwyn 23:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Einstein Plagiarism Speculation

Maybe their should be a section detailin this:- *Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist *Plagiarist of the Century

• Albert Einstein: Plagiarist of the Century by Richard Moody
• lbert Einstein: Was he a thief, a liar and a plagiarist? **Was Einstein a plagiarist? by Cecil Adams
• The Eclipse of 1919 - Albert Einstein: Prophet or Plagiarist
  • Was Einstein a plagiarist by The Christian Party
  • Albert Einstein: Plagiarist and Fraud by Ian Mosley
  • The other side of Albert Einstein by Physics World, January 2005
  • Physics Notes: E = mc² is not Einstein's Equation by Viktor T. Toth
  • Was Albert Einstein a hoax? by Sam Sloan
  • Albert Einstein: A Jewish Myth] by Dr. Paul Bowers, B.S., M.E., Ch.D.
  • A Theory of Einstein the Irrational Plagiarist] by Christopher Jon Bjerknes – The Canberra Times September 19, 2006
• The Einstein Hoax: The Disastrous Intellectual War on Common Sense by H. E. Retic (Author)

From many peoples understanding Albert Einstein was a plagiarist. However his work on Brownian motion (for which he got the Nobel prize) was apparently original and quite good. Remember, he didn't get the Nobel prize for "his" relativity theory. :DEinstein received the Nobel Prize for his work on the photo-electric effect.

This should be in the article from a non biased POV (regardless of whether links are Communist or Nationalist the references and facts should be taken note of) FK0071a 14:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

your "references" are a collection of anti-semitic and confused Christian cranks. Misplaced Pages doesn't need every piece of nonsense found on the internet. The full article is at Relativity priority dispute and discusses anything you ever wanted to know about the topic. dab (𒁳) 15:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Have you even read or looked at the references you are mentioning above ? In particular, the paper Physics Notes: E = mc² is not Einstein's Equation says exactly the opposite of what you are implying. Schutz 22:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

And who is Viktor Toth, that we must accept his googling bit? Vsmith 23:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at the post script to Toth's article. Well worth a read --LiamE 23:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Bjerknes' site gives a long list of published references for Einstein's having plagiarized Poincaré for Relativity and E=mc2. 67.8.115.243 13:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Theory of Relativity

I read in Barron's Dictionary of Mathematics Terms by Douglas Downing that the mathematics of Einstein's theory of relativity is a non-Euclidean geometry developed by a German mathematician named Riemmann. Since non-Euclidean geometry does not correspond to physical reality, unlike Euclidean geometry, would not this cast doubt upon Einstein's theory, since it is one about physics. 2:41 December 5, 2006 (UTC) FDR If I'm not mistaken, isn't it Einstein's general theory of relativity itself that is the tool that has proven that reality is made of flat Euclidean space (when mass isn't around)? 2:14 December 7, 2006 (EST) Well, according to the book I just mentioned, Barron's Dictionary of Mathematics Terms by Douglas Downing, Einstein used a non-Euclidean geometry developed by a German mathematician named George Friedrich Bernhard Riemman (1826-1866). It discusses this in its article on Riemman. Misplaced Pages also says that Einstein used this non-Euclidean geometry in its article on Riemman. So I do not think that what you say is correct. 15:02:30 December 7, 2006 (UTC) FDR

Education "controversy"

Do we really need the lengthy analysis of Einstein's grade card. Seems the article is plenty long without dragging out the grade details. Also, it is not our job here to presume or deduce anything (removed that part) - just to report the pertinate published and notable information. Vsmith 03:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Copied the following from my talk for all to view:

Einstein Edits

Alright, let me explain to you the logic of this, when it comes to flow of article.

I agree that embellishment and such should have no place in scientific articles in general, however I disagree with your ideas here.

You are being narrow minded. Read the 2 paragraphs pertaining to his education and performance in school. The reason why I included the additional information is to end that section with "Einstein only excelled in the subjects he deemed relevant to his scientific career."

This is THE TRUTH. Alright, i can take out the "presume" and "deduce" bit, if need be, however, I STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT THIS VITAL INFORMATION AS TO THE thinking of Albert Einstein, or his perception of education in general as a reflection of his own experiences through high school, is VERY IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT to this article. It's not just the flow of the entire paragraph, its a concluding sentence, which is important in any academic essay.

I am not sure about your level of understanding of these subtle ideas. But JUST FOR YOU, i will take out the "presume" and "deduce" bit, even though it is blatantly obvious, I was being pragmatic by using those 2 verbs to suggest that there might have been more to Einstein than what's on paper.

Fine, i'll take it out, but I am going to include the concluding sentence, and if you still have a problem with it, let's take it up with higher personell.

Regards, --Emperor 03:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Emperor ?? where'd that come from? OK Peter (as you first signed the above post), but I'd suggest taking the issue to the Einstein talk page rather than some higher personell - whoever you're referring to there. As I obviously cannot argue with THE TRUTH with my limited level of understanding of these subtle ideas.

"Einstein only excelled in the subjects he deemed relevant to his scientific career." -- hmm, or was he more normal and excelled in subjects that he was interested in? Do we have a reference that states his career oriented focus? or just that he was following his interests as many very bright teens have done throughout history. Vsmith 03:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Copying this to talk:Albert Einstein - please respond there wher all of the higher personell guys can watch. Vsmith 03:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Overlord or Emperor has inserted another version of his concluding sentence which appears to be based on his interpretation and thus comes near to or is WP:OR. Also he seems to have re-added similar material a number of times, I have previously left him a WP:3RR warning on his talk page. Vsmith 04:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the latest version of Overlord’s conclusion with the comment, “This conclusion does not necessarily follow.” In doing so I had in mind Vsmith’s comment above, “was he more normal and excelled in subjects that he was interested in? …” On reflection, however, I see that the evidence not only fails to support Overlord’s conclusion; it positively refutes it: Einstein got a 6 in history and 5’s in German and Italian, and in Munich he got high marks in Latin and Greek. How did this excellence advance his scientific career? On the other hand, he got only a 4 in technical drawing; you would think that if he were so career-focused, he would have tried harder there. --teb728 23:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC) I have heard that his low mark in French was the result of trying to cram three years of French into one year. So Robinson’s interpretation is questionable. --teb728 23:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I must say I both agree and disagree with the above arguments. Firstly, the marks he obtained in other courses DO NOT refute the concluding sentence of mine. However, they don't necessarily support it either. That's why I have accepted the current changes until I can find evidence of a quote of Einstein, clearly supporting my conclusion. I am almost certain that I am right, however proving it is difficult. Einstein's priorities lied in the physical and mathematical sciences. Obtaining an excellent grade in also history doesn't suggest I am wrong. His above average marks in other courses do not falsify my claims in any way. If anything, it does suggest that irrespective of his qualms he did take pride in what he attempted. The reason why I am certain of my claims, is because of several aspects in his earlier life. I am not going to mention these, as they do not provide the proof that I am looking for at this point. I believe in the future, once I find something irrefutable, I will include my original concluding sentence. --Emperor 14:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

English and Einstein's matura

Something hopefully less controversial... The article currently says: Einstein also completed English studies, for which he received no grade.. This, I believe, is incorrect. The document is a pre-printed form with the possible courses; if Einstein did no receive a grade, it is proably because he did not take the course. In more recent times (until a few years ago), Swiss students could choose between Italian and English as a third language. I cannot be confident that it was already the case in Einstein's times, but it looks like a good explanation for the absence of a grade. In any case, I'll just remove the sentence. Schutz 23:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I studied in switzerland for several years during primary school, secondary and high school, and it IS possible to complete subjects WITHOUT receiving a grade. However, usually it would be denoted with "bes." for "besucht" and so it seems that you might be right. I must add, however, that it is not unlikely that Einstein also completed English studies, because I have a friend, in his 50s, who studied in the same High school as einstein did, and he did indeed receive grades for german, french, italian and english. However, it might well be the case that Einstein studied the more scientifically focused "typ". In any case, it's better not to presume. --Emperor 14:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

relativity

would it be true to say that he was wrong and that e=mcsquared and that at higher velocities the energy increased and not the mass? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.137.118.130 (talk) 01:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

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