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Tipu Fans

To all Tipu sultan and hyder ali fans in india, pakistun and all muslim countries, it is a known fact that the Mysore maharajs gave them food and shelter and these very cunning traitors paid back their debt by occupiying the throne and acting as defacto rulers which itself proves how saintly they were. Tipu as every muslim ruler and invader was a Muslim fanatic who waited till he rose to powerful position to convert people, ofcourse he might not have done that in mysore but other places that he invaded.

REPLY TO THE ANONYMOUS SENDER

Oh oh oh.No will ever listen to your silly words.The maharajas were lavish spenders who spend the tresury at thier subjects expences and who did not care a shit about thir subjects.Tipu Sultan prosecuted a brilliant military career; his rule contributed a golden chapter to the history of India. Both Hyder and Tipu brought in many technological innovations, modernizing the Mysorean army and expanding Mysore's foreign trade. They also aligned themselves by and large with the French, whose French East India Company was politically very active in southern India at the time.Hyder Ali, however, never officially ascended the throne himself, believing in a religious maxim to not betray his king. After the death of Hyder Ali in 1782, his son, Tipu Sultan, also known as Sher-E-Mysore (The Tiger of Mysore), continued this charade till the death of the nominal King Khasa Chamaraja Wadiyar VIII in 1796.

If the marathas, nizams and raja of travancore had not sided with the british in 1799 then india would have been freed in the same year!

CARE TO PROVIDE YOUR IDENTITY AND USERNAME...Ah u wont! guys like u always stab from behind like traitors!

Mujeerkhan 22:55, 8 september 2006 (UTC)

tipu as a saint

tipu is regarded as a saint (waliallah) as i get information i will add up in the main page...can anyone also help me out or is there any objection.....people of all faith visit his shrine in srirangapatnam...

Tippu Sultan was a pious ruler. He was a "wali" of God, not a saint. Kanchanamala 04:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

So he was fighting for god, not freedom. Hkelkar 04:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Anyway, like Maharana Pratap and Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaja, Tippu Sultan was a pious ruler who fought and died for the freedom of our country.64.163.129.139 04:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that the tiny and erstwhile kingdom of Mysore constituted a country :-). Hkelkar 04:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj was a great man (unlike Tipu, who was nothing compared to him).The Chatrapati WAS a freedom fighter because the political entity that he created (the Maratha Confederacy) was not a despotic unit (at least, until the Peshwas got their grubby little paws on it) but a loose confederacy of principalities run by regional governors. Some of those provinces were oppressed, others were more egalitarian. The Chhatrapati himself was an egalitarianist and en enlightened ruler who treated the subjects under his immediate control fairly and justly.The Chatrapati fought to create a system that was inherently superior to the barbarity and oppression of the Mughals. In contrast, Tipu was a tiny tribal leader of a largely insignificant kingdom, whose deeds have been exaggerated by folklore. Tipu was not fighting for freedom, but to preserve his monarchial rule over his kingdom. He clearly had no conception of egalitarianism, unlike Chhatrapati Shivaji. Hkelkar 04:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You are right. Like the kingdoms of Maharana Pratap of Mewar and Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaja and Maharani Lakshmi Bai of Jhansi, Mysore of Tippu Sultan was also part of our country.Kanchanamala 05:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

He was part of our history, not part of our country as our country did not exist back then. Our country was created in 1947. Hkelkar 05:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to your perspective. You know mine. Kanchanamala 05:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a good constructive discussion going on here. I admit, I admired Tipu Sultan till recently. I knew about him of course, from Sanjay Khan's TV serial and many other history books which I read. However, for all his greatness, he simply cannot be compared with Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj. Infact, not even Maharan Pratap or Akbar can be compared with the great Shivaji. Shivaji created an empire from zero. Tell me anyone else who did. It is well-known that Tipu inherited a kingdom which was usurped by his father Haider Ali, no less brave. But Shivaji's administration, his religious policy, the way he captured the hearts of even his foes, that's what makes him great. Tipu couldn't turn his foes into allies. We often wonder what could've been if the ruling Peshwa would've joined with Tipu, but Mysore had historical hostility towards Marathas and had unnecessarily waged innumerable battles against Marathas for no reasons whatsoever. I always admired rulers like Tipu and Akbar for their religious policies. But, in light of recent developments, I am quite shocked to know that Tipu carried out religious persecutions. I was reminded of the Styx song 'Show Me The Way' which goes as

"And every day I'm more confused as the saints turn into sinners

All the heroes and legends I knew as a child have fallen to idols of clay

And I feel this empty place inside so afraid that I've lost my faith"

--NRS | /_M\ 05:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I have the utmost respect for Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaja. Akbar was a successor of Babur who invaded our country to impose Islam on us.Kanchanamala 00:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Tipu Sultan According to me was a tyrant and most cunning king in the history of India. He converted many Hindus especially Namboodri Brahmins to Islam. He ruthlessly killed many Hindus as well as Christens. It is also true that he donated lands to some temples. But this was in order to appease the Hindus who would help him in the battle with British. There is one book “Tipu Sultan : Villain or Hero?” on this subject by renowned writer Sita Ram Goel. I’d recommend this book to get insight of actual doings of Tipu Sultan. In my child hood I like Tipu Sultan because of famous TV serial “The Sword Of Tipu Sultan”. But now I think the serial is work of Pseudo-History. Anik

Tippu Sultan was an illustrious Indian ruler. He was also a freedom fighter. Only an ignorant person or a fanatic would call him names. Kanchanamala 04:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Whose freedom was he fighting for? Hkelkar 04:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Tippu Sultan fought against the British in Mysore. Kanchanamala 00:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

So what's your point? How does that make him a "Freedom fighter"? He was fighting to save his monarchial rule over Mysore. He had no conception of India as a political and national unit. Did he fight for all Indians? What about the people of Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura? They're Indians too, you know. Did he fight for them? Did he even know that they existed?What about the Bengalis, the Gujaratis, the Marathas (his arch enemies btw),the Coorgi Hindus etc.? He "fought for their freedom" by killing them, right? His subjects were never "free". You can't be "free" in a despotic and absolutist monarchy. In fact, they were probably more free under the British than under Tipu. Ironic, isn't it? Hkelkar 00:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In the context of his times, I have shared the view that Tippu Sultan was a freedom fighter.Kanchanamala 00:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

What context is that, exactly? Where is the context.I think your view is motivated more by tribal historical revisionism and that sad cartoon by Bhagwan S. Gidwani-a-la Sanjay Khan than any historical or scholarly narratives, not to mention the toilet paper that passes for history books in most Indian schools.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a diehard patriotic Indian, same as you I guess. However, I am not above criticizing my beloved Indian brothers for being a group of misinformed delusional windbags in some matters (much like an older brother would have love for his younger brother or sister and still not be beyond scolding him/her). Hkelkar 01:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Obviously I understand you. If we agree that Tippu Sultan was an Indian, like you and me, but was born and raised in a Muslim family, then we are happy campers.Kanchanamala 00:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

religious persecution

I have noted that this heading has been sourced within any proper reference and someone is using blog sites as their reference....bcoz anything can be said in blog sites...i will be removing the heading within a week if no reference is given...as indian history has never admitted to any crimes whatsover on tipu sultan....

Mujeerkhan15:20, 11 June 2006 AEST

There are at least some references i can find online (and remember from other sources) about Tipu donating money to renovate temples, giving other temples land and jewellery etc. The Sharada temple in Sringeri for one - which is also the monastery of the Sringeri Shankaracharya. A series of about 30 letters written in Kannada, correspondence between Tipu Sultan and the Sringeri Shankaracharya exist, documenting this (and Tipu even comes up with a sanskrit quote about evildoers committing crimes with a smile, only weeping when they are brought to justice for their crimes (though this was probably from one of his much more erudite and literate courtiers, perhaps his prime minister, Purnaiya). A quite well researched book by Prof. Irfan Habib documents this - http://www.indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=61&category=8&issue=11 .. and this is further corroborated by an article in Tattvaloka, the magazine published by the Sringeri monastery - http://www.tattvaloka.com/publications.htm for more. What is funny is that the temple was apparently ransacked by Maratha soldiers in 1791-92 - unique twist there, hindu soldiery that consciously used several obvious trappings of hinduism including the saffron bhagwa flag, and that is venerated by a hindu right wing party the Shiv Sena, pillaging probably the most eminent hindu monastery in south india.

srs 17:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Suresh (member srs ) , thank you very much for providing valuable information.

Mujeerkhan17:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a cite before making edits like "Even so there is some evidence that his armies destroyed many Hindu temples in the south part of India.". Which temples did his troops demolish and where?

Comments from VS

At the Madhoor Temple in Kasaragod district of Kerala, there is a sword mark on the roof under which it is clearly mentioned that this was the act of tipu sultan.

Please refer wikipedia article on "Mangalorean Konkani" which has mentioned about forced conversion to muslim by Tipu

I could also find a lot of internet sites including published magazine articles which agrees that Tipu has made generous contributions to some temples. And yet Prisoners of war were given choice of either embracing muslim religion or to rot in his jails and most of them accepted the first option.

End of Comments from VS

Though i am from pakistan I have heard stories about Tipu Sultan since as i was a kid. Tipu saw no difference from from his hindu and muslims subjects, he contributed jewels, cash for temples. Once Mahatma gandhi said " Tipu for the great Waqfs (trusts) he instituted for Hindu temples. His palaces stood close to Venkataraman Srinivasa and Sri Ranganath temples. He specially praises the Mysore ruler for the famous saying that ‘one day of a lion’s life is better than 100 years life of a jackal.’ To top it all, Tipu Sultan was also solicitous of the Brahmin clergy of his state and sought their cooperation - even requested for special prayers invoking the blessings of deities. His letters to Jagatguru Swami of Srinagrimat in 1791 are the proofs of his excellent relationship with the Hindu subjects. Some 30 letters of Tipu are preserved in the archaeological department of India to vouchsafe for this claim.

In pakistan, we respect him very much and have named a navy ship called PNS Tipu sultan [http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Navy%20Pics/PNSTippuSultan_AmazonClassFrigate_001_PakistaniDefence.com.jpg End of comment], monuments, roads in memory of this great freedom fighter of the sub continent. And yet some people say that he was a 'bad man'. And i have heard that indian history is rewriting on tipu sultan ( if i am right). Remember it was British and politics which divided our countries.

Hassan19:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Even though the Government of Pakistan named a naval vessel after Tippu Sultan for wrong reasons, I proudly share your views and sentiments. Kanchanamala 04:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The government of Pakistan named a vessel after Tipu Sultan because they understood and appreciated who he was, a despot and a medieval Islamist, which is the kind of world they want everybody to live in. Only in India will murderers be worshipped by their own victims. Hkelkar 04:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I share the view that Tippu Sultan was a good Muslim Indian, apparently you don't. Kanchanamala 05:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Tipu Sultan was typical Islamic despotic a bit like Saddam Hussein but much worse. A temple smasher and killer of Hindus, this evil snake was killed by the Britsh for their own reasons.

Tipu was barbaric.

Provide some evidence in this regard but pls do not use blog sites or propoganda sites as evidence. Since I spend my schooling in mysore I have come across several hindu temples which got funds from tipu sultan ex nanjangud temple...and the best example to which i can give to is the temple in his Srirangapatnam fort itself! and also remember that a major part of his army were hindus. People like you will defenetly change Indian history.

Mujeerkhan 15:20, 10 June 2006 AEST

Care to provide documentation?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 04:37, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

Needs work.

Was "Tipu" his given name?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 04:38, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

title

I have known that guy from history better under name Tippu Sahib. Should he be under that? 217.140.193.123 8 July 2005 16:54 (UTC)

Can the above write please provide evidence for his claims? Tipu Sultan was very much a tolerant and just ruler of his people. Had he been as you state then his own Hindu Subjects wouldn't have fought and died under his cause our of sheer loyalty. There are many baised books which claim what you claim, BUT TILL DATE they contain no actual reliable sources for this explicitly false statement. I would also request that that part also be removed from the article seeing as even Jawarlal Nehru no less looked up to his staunch loyalty to his people and his strong patriotism. He was a ruler of a type we sadly no longer see in todays 'civilised' world.

Raja

Nonsense phrase

To quote from the article: "A rocket carrying about one pound of powder could travel almost 1,000 yards. In contrast, rockets in Europe not being iron cased, could not take large chamber pressures and as a consequence, were not capable of reaching distances anywhere close to a mile." But a mile is 1760 yards, so what is being asserted here? Too Old 05:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Weight of the rocket is about 2kg. With about 1kg of propellant. 50mm in dia about 250mm length, the range performance is reported 900mts to 1.5 km. Wisesabre 06:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

So the rockets had about 1kg (2.2lb) of powder, not 1 lb. With this charge their range was between 6/10 mile (900 meters) and 9/10 mile (1.5km), probably in excess of 1000 yards (6/10 mile). The contemporary European rockets possibly could match this, since their casings weighed less, so the same amount of powder might have driven them as far. The comparison is indecisive. Does anyone know of an experiment to test the relative ranges of the two rocket types using the same amount of powder? The American National Anthem refers to "the rockets' red glare" during the War of 1812, implying military useage. At any rate the article might be in error. Too Old 02:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The battles against Tipu Sultan inspired Congreve to develop his Congreve rockets for the British Army, and their later use is mentioned in The Star Spangled Banner. The contemporary western versions (contemporary with those used by Tipu Sultan, before Congreve) were not so powerful, as this article says. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Mother’s name

Fatima is an old Arabic name (The Prophet’s daughter’s name was Fatima), so that would the mother’s given name.

Fakher-an-Nissa is Arabic and literally means Pride of Women; this would be a sort of title. You can either use her title by its own or call her: Fakher-an-Nissa Fatima bint FATHER_NAME.

I hope this information is useful, because as the article stands now it seems her exact name is not known! --DelftUser 19:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Religious persecution

Tipu seemed to be a great secularist. There is a Ranganatha swamy Temple standing right in the ruins of Srirangapatnam. Pity such a great soldier had to go like that. --Hydman 06:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The bit on persecution is a straight lift from the link Tipu Hero or villain given below- verbatim, am deleting the same as it has copyvio issues. Not even getting into whether site is accurate or not. ( seems to be focused on reviewing books that support the right wing point of view). Haphar 12:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I come across this link which states that ASI found some manuscripts,which record the destruction of temples my Tipu in different places.I think we need to revise this section to include persecution of hindus,christins in kerala,goa and karnataka.AumprakashReddy

Did you actually read the entire article instead of quoting a single line from it out of context? srs 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Plz explain what is out of context here AumprakashReddy 04:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Help wanted in dealing with a Tipu Sultan spammer

Help wanted in dealing with a Tipu Sultan spammer

Every so often a spammer using an IP address that starts with 64.228.225. spams links to bogus web sites. I have tracked down and reverted all I could find, but I'm getting a little sick of tracking all these articles on my watchlist (it's up to 263 pages by now). Can I ask the regular, frequent editors of this article to keep an eye out for this person? If they hit again, please revert the edit and warn the spammer. If you have the time, check out what other edits they made that day and revert them as well -- or just let me know and I'll do it. The link they like to add to this article is

.

The real point of the link is to build search engine rankings for the commercial links at the bottom of the page; the same spamdexer is linking similarly bogus pages for Hindu mystical figures and U.S. country music stars -- all with the same links at the bottom of the page.

The spammer also recently created an account, User:Borgengruft.

For more info, see:

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive117#Link-spamming from someone in the IP address block 64.228.225.xxx
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive118#Update -- now using Borgengruft?
• User:A. B./To do list#Abusers

Thanks for your help.--A. B. 07:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

To Tippy Fans

To Tippy sultyn Fans again, who are defending that he was not a muslim fanatic, must know that what right did hydra ali and tippy sultan had to cease power, they call people who eat the masters given food and betray them as Namak Haram, they were just that, mYsore was doing extremely well without them and did exceptionally well after them, as usual most of his armys commanders were muslims and when they defeated Travancore maharaja they converted thousands of Nairs to Islam by force, and he had links with turkey, persia and other muslim countries. About his contributions to temples, he was not giving his grandparents money but the money of the Mysore Kingdom, the maharajas money,its not a big deal, i am sure he would have given hundred times more money to the madrasaas and mosques, he built tombs and mosques in mysore using the stolen money of the Maharajas, so his fans what ever u thik he is he was definately a traitor and muslim fanatic. our so called secular leaders have made a hero out of a Villan. vgowda

Dude! care 2 provide da documentation n u can type watever ye want in ur brains but not here...Mysorebhai 20:30, 14 September, 20:30, UTC

vgowda can be more refined but he has a point. religious persecution by tipu is a well known, atleast much debated fact. also his anti kannada stance is recent news and references can be found in any karnataka newspaper of the last couple of weeks or month. and google for tipu's religious persecution am sure you will find lots of hits. Sarvagnya 01:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Tipu was a hero. A great man. The rabble-rousing Hindutavavadis have no other work but to slander non-Hindu people. Bastards, first learn English, then come here. I think this Sarvagnya, Vgowda and other Tipu haters are all sockpuppets of the Hindutvavadi puppet master. Don't make a mess here in Tipu article, you fools.

--Tipu Hero 04:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I learned English already. fool=flower right? phulBakaman _Bakatalk 00:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

To Jehadi Fanatics of Islam

First of all Mysorebhai and Tippy hero, mind ur language dont show off ur culture and upbringing to the whole world and ur jehadism and fanaticsm will not run here, truth hurts sometimes but u cannot supress the truth . Tipu was a muslim fanatic and was Anti Kannada and ur shouting here will not change history, so go and put whatever u want in Ladens or Saddam hussains articles ur current heros, ok. --vgowda

So if we can put some credible references to this it would be great. Then it can be referenced and put in the article and there would be no need to get into discussions over this. Everyone on this page is not in Karnatka and would not have access to the kannada news articles. Haphar 11:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by Fanatics

I have provides the links to tipu being Anti kannada, but somebody is trying to protray hima as secular when he was not, and they keep writing about sringeri which has been mentioned already. --vgowda

Tipu The Greatest

Tipu Sultan was certainly the greatest. He was a great nationalist. He kicked away the Mysore kings and became a GREAT SULTAN !!!!! He brought the great language URDU to foolish Karnatak people speaking old bland Cannad language. The beauty of Urdu language floored many Cannad people and they adopted Urdu and became Muslim. Tipu didnt force anyone to become Muslim. He was a great king. He did the great work of making "Kafiristan Karnatak" into "Dar-Ul-Karnatistan". Thank him for the riches he brought to Caranatak. Otherewise what were these Cannada people doing. Poor people were slaves to the Marathas and Nizam. After Tipu, the Mysore Rajas again became slaves, this time of European British. But still Carnatic government dont make justice. Urdu should be made Carnatik state's official language. Fools, stop badmouthing the gr8 Tipu Sultan.

ALL HAIL THE GREAT TIPU SULTAN !!!! DOWN WITH THE CANNADDA FANATICS !!!!

Tipu Beat Cannad

This is not helping anyone. If you could keep running down other communities it would help. Tipu does not become great by degenerating other communities or language. I think it takes away from his greatness to have someone run others down.Let's be fact based, please give your sources for your claims, and go easy on the aggression. Haphar 15:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

No personal attacks (NPA)

Users vgowda and Tipu Hero pls dont make NPA on other members or i will be forced to make a action against you and if you folks have any issues pls discuss here instead of editing the main article. And other members please put your differences aside and also please sign in.

Mujeerkhan 20:55, 23 september 2006 (UTC)

So ridiculous that it defies reason

The very claim that Tipu Sultan is the "Father of Modern Rocket Science" is laughable.Any reasonable person viewing this article would immediately see this claim for the absurd level of jingoism it touts. As a practising physicist, I find this statement so ludicrous that the only words I can think of to describe it are Wolfgang Pauli' famous "NOT EVEN WRONG". It is pure junk science at it's finest.

First of all, the very claim that Tipu used "rockets" as weapons of war is unsourced and dubious enough to warrant a special mention in my professor's classes on spotting pseudoscience. I've seen the Doordarshan TV show by that Shahbaz Khan guy where they showed this rocket stuff and, even at age 12, I could see it for the nonsense it really was.

Tipu Sultan was no scientist and he did not have the background in basic empiricism that led the ancient Chinese to discover primitive rockets in the first place (and even THEY used it for entertaintment, not as weapons). Even if we buy into this rockets crap, it would not be Tipu Sultan who get's the credit, but the minister or worker or somebody who figured it out under his command. Do we credit Eisenhower with being the "Father of the Atomic Bomb", or do we reserve the credit to Oppenheimer, Einstein, Feynman et al?????

To make this claim is, quite frankly, insulting to the years of experimental research work that led to the first rocket engines developed by Tsiolkovsky (the REAL father of rocket science). Please provide VERIFIABLE and RELIABLE sources per WP:Reliable Sources that attest to the claim that Tipu even had access to "rockets" and then please change the title to reflect a more balanced section (assuming that you people can find any proof of this "rockets" fable).Hkelkar 06:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, User:Nobleeagle pointed me to the ref from where the "Father of Rocket Science" balderdash was plagiarized. I also found some slightly credible refs that state that rockets were used by Marathas and by Tipu (though frankly, calling those glorified firecrackers "rockets" is still pretty ridiculous). While I stand corrected about the use of rockets, the section was plagiarized copyvio from the article. Plus,calling him the "father" of rocketry is pretty laughable so I merged the section with an earlier one where the rocketry thing was better discussed.Hkelkar 07:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Dubious assertion(s)

"He was a noted linguist, patriot and a freedom fighter"

If he was such a noted linguist then what are his linguistic works? Anyone care to cite some? If he spoke multiple languages that does not make him a linguist. Many people in India were (still are) multilingual. Shivaji spoke Portuguese, for instance. Rani Laxmibai spoke Persian as well as Marathi. Did that make her a "linguist"? Hardly.

Where do you find Shivaji spoke Portuguese.This will make an interesting reading.I would love to read about it.Secondly, Persian was the court language in the time of Mughal empire in India, as late as 1980's - Persian phrases were used in independent India's courts.I have a Court manual lying with me which translates these Persian phrases into Hindi.Knowing Persian in India at that time is like learning English at present time in the Indian context.TerryJ-Ho

"Patriot" is a POV claim. Patriot to what? India? India as a nation did not even EXIST back then so of what was he a patriot? Mysore/Srirangapatnam/whatever? That's not patriotism, it'c called "Tribal Loyalty". I mean, is Richard the Lionheart referred to as a "patriot" even though he "loved" England? Is Charlemagne referred to as a "patriot" even though he "loved" France? What about the German Kaisers? Are they called "Patriots"??? What about Shaka Zulu? Is he referred to as a "Patriot"? Then why Tipu Sultan?

"Freedom Fighter"??? Whose freedom was he fighting for? Indians? Indians were hardly "free", living under Kings, Rajas, Badshahs,Sultans, Mansabdaars and Nizams is not "freedom".Plus, the Brits hadn't conquered the country yet so he wasn't fighting for freedom from the Brits but to keep them from taking away his kingdom. Tipu Sultan clearly had no conception of democracy as we understand it today so by what stretch of the imagination was he a "Freedom Fighter"?????Let's keep the jingiosm out of wikipedia shall we?

"We can replace this statement with "He was a notable ruler and a capable and inventive fighter". That's good enough I think. Please discuss.Hkelkar 09:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelekar You should then thank the Mughals and British , specially Aurangzeb for giving India a sense of nationhood by bringing it under a centralised rule failing which you would have been a citizen of a remote state of Bengalistan forget the giant India it is at present but then it is easier forgeting that living in the state of Texas TerryJ-Ho

Thank Aurangzeb the mass murderer? So much so that even Marxist historians admit to his atrocities? What's next? Are you going to ask me to thank Hitler too?Hkelkar 22:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Quoting lies hundred times does not make it truth..Kelkar..This page is replete with Hindu Chauvinist propoganda who see the entire Indian History with a jandiced anti Muslim and anti Islam stance.The historians (apart from a few Hindutva)till now do not mention of any persecution of Hindus at the hands of Aurangzeb except that of implementing the Poll Tax - Jaziya (literally meaning Protection Tax)on Hindus which is the equivalent of the Zakat Tax (2.5%)on Muslims that was also collected by the King.If a few temples or religious places of any faith were ruined by their armies it was more as a consequence of political association of these places with the rulers of these kingdoms - even the great Hindu King Shivaji destroyed the Sringeri Mutt - that Tipu got rebuilt - similarly Aurangzeb - by his firman attached many villages to Hindu temples.If Aurangzeb was Hitler - Delhi would not have an Aurangzeb road on his name in modern India. TerryJ-Ho

• An interesting article

Oh really??So the sources like Achilles Meersman, C.K Kareem and William Lee-Warner are "Hindu Fascists"? I know that Islamist terrormongers were delusional but could not perceive that the obsessive compulsive schizophrenia would extend this far. This is what happens when one reads too many al-Qaeda propaganda pamphlets I suppose.What's next? Anybody who exposes your disgusting anti-Hindu hate and bile is a "Hindu Chauvinist"? Yes, you're right about one thing. Quoting lies a hundred time does not make it truth indeed! I have sources that attest that Tipu Sultan committed genocide and the mediator in the AMA page agrees with me. Don't like it? Tough noogies!Let's take it to arbitration then. It would be a pleasure to observe your reaction after what scholarly admins say about my sources and your flagrant WP:NOR above.Hkelkar 22:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Brainwashing!

User Hkelkar has a long history of meddling with Indian Buddhist Movement, Lalu Prasad Yadav, Votebank, Godhra Train Burning, Bombay Riots, with a majority on critisicing minority communities and can be branded as a rasict, extremists and does not have a place to say in wikipedia and should be banned. Muslims and hindus see tipu sultan as a saint and people of all faiths visit his grave...have you been there, then you will understand who he was. people with a negative attitude towards tipu sultan cant swallow the truth and probably cant digest it. Naziakhanum 20:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can;t swallow the wikipedia principles of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:NPA and WP:Civility then maybe you should take a break from wikipedia mr new account holder.Hkelkar 10:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

User Hkelkar if you want to edit anything on this article then please post your comments here.THNX Naziakhanum 20:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, another personal attack.Hkelkar

Pls dont edit anything in the article, if you have any issues then pls discuss here. And by the the i am notvandalising. I know WP:NPOV and Mr. "If you can;t swallow the wikipedia principles of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:NPA " you cant say that to me and lol that amounts to personal attack and as you said before it is not me who should take a break. thnxNaziakhanum 20:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You made characterizations above that clearly are personal attacks. Until my issues are resolved, I am within my rights per wikipedia policy to make markups in the article accordingly. Plus, for a new user, you sure seem to know a lot about wikipedia. Perhaps an RfC might be in order.Hkelkar 10:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Many comments are unsourced in the article and I am ALLOWED to REMOVE UNSOURCED COMMENTS per WP:V and WP:Reliable Sources. AS A COURTESY, I am marking them up instead. Removing those markups IS vandalism and justification for arbitration if necessary.Hkelkar 10:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi all, i have found many articles that portays tipu as tolerant to all faiths ], ], President of india and Mahatma Gandhion tipu], ], ]. kings were unjust to thier people and sold down their own rivers for thier greed (as stated in "hindu" ) ], tipu on relegion ], hindus in tipu sultan army ], karnataka government against minister remarks ]," Tipu Sultan made lavish gifts to Hindu temples particularly to Shri Rangnatha Temple located inside the Fort of Shrirangapatnam at Mysore. Tipu was an enlightened ruler and was secular in outlook. If he crushed the Hindus of Coorg, the Christians of Mangalore and the Nayars of Malabar that was to due to the fact they wished to undermine his authority by joining the British. He did not spare the Mopillas of Malabar or the Mahadevi Muslims or Nawabs of Sawanur or Nizam whenever he suspected such tendencies among them" ]. WHAT WOULD U DO TO TRAITORS who joined the british or pakistanis agianst a plot agianst india would you not destroy them.

Hindus in tipu sultan army ], Sringeri was not the only holy place, which received the patronage of Tipu but Lakshmikantha temple, Narayanaswamy temple, Narasimha temple and the Gangadhareswara temple recieved donations ], Subbaraya Chetty on tipu ] , srirangapatam temple onlinedarshan.com/sparks_of_wisdom/rituals/tipu_sultan.htm - 11k S Chandrashekar has your answers on weather tipu was the good guy or a bad guy ]..AND THE LIST GOES ON

A few website ], ] cant prove a thing! and remember majority (well known indians) of indians dont agree that tipu was a tryant but rather a tolerant man on all faiths.

Mysorebhai 11:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Your argument is irrelevant, although your sources are not and seem okay. "A few" is not outweighed by "many". Please read wikipedia policies instead of nationalistic biases.If you wish to add a rebuttal to the claim of Tipu Sultan's alleged genocidal mentality then, by all means, cite your sources in the article per WP:Reliable Sources but you CANNOT remove SOURCED edits as that would be vandalism. The opinion of the majority of Indians is also unimportant. Misplaced Pages is about Verifiability, and all of my edits are Verifiable. If your edits are verifiable then good. Pu them in and you will have my eternal thanks. Remove MY verifiable edits and that is vandalism.Hkelkar 12:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and sabrang and Pakistanlink are unnacceptable sources as sabrang is a Fundamentalist Muslim source (extremist, violates WP:Reliable Sources and Pakistanlink is nationalistic. Webites like Pakistanlink also says that Aurangzeb was a great ruler and justifies his slaughter of Hindus).Hkelkar 12:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Milligazette is also a fundamentalist Muslim source. Partisan and unreliable. They have made several racist and anti-Semitic remarks against Israel, making them an extremist site and not falling unser WP:Reliable Sources.Hkelkar 12:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Your "Institute for Objective Studies" is as objective as the Islamic Thinkers Society.Hkelkar 12:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelakar - do not establish your own rules on Misplaced Pages.You seem to state all Muslim sources are unreliable and "fundamentalist"..on what grounds?? You never care to explain..TerryJ-Ho 22:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

All but 2 of your sources are partisan and highly unreliable (the webindia one is okay). Surely you can find non-partisan sources like historians (instead of terrorists) and academics instead of mujahids. This Irfan Habib guy seems okay. Try to find HIS book on Tipu Sultan. That would be very good.Hkelkar 12:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that these sources of yours are okay and you may cite those:

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/itihas/tippu.htm

http://www.tipusultan.org/biog2d.htm

This seems like a particularly good source.Why don;t you use this more???

http://sify.com/itihaas/fullstory.php?id=13375042 http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2002/08/23/stories/2002082300080900.htm

In controversy: http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20060922/458542.html

These sources are good. You may use these. All other sources are practically Osama's pawns and should be immediately removed per WP:Reliable Sources.Hkelkar 12:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask you to refrain from terms like "Osama's pawns".These are denigrating and highly Uncivil TerryJ-Ho 22:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Pot, kettle, black.Hkelkar 23:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Lots of boiling heat for quite a while eh! the sources provided by Mysorebhai are really worth reading and can be used in editing the article. Why a sudden "Controversy regarding religious persecution by Tipu Sultan" and "Contemporary controversy over Tipu Sultan" .And Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, D.H. Shankaramurthy is a former kar sevak which are aginst islam, so the point is simple why listen to such folks who are against a culture.

Voice of dharma is also a fundamentalist hindu source. Partisan and unreliable. They have made several racist and anti-Semitic remarks against islam, making them an extremist site and not falling unser

The points are simple as milligazette is fundamentalist Muslim source so is Voice of dharma is also a fundamentalist hindu source. D.H. Shankaramurthy remarks are against wiki. Further more u cant comment anyone as Islamic Thinkers Society as they are WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:NPA. As per wiki rules users Naziakhanum must apologise to Hkelkar and vise versa and Hkelkar must do the same with Mysorebhai.I feel like a teacher who mediates between kids! I am editing the article as it was before, in the new edit will lead to many conflicts (as mojority are opposed to new addition).And if anyone is editing I will be glad to complain to wiki, which in turn will take appropiate action against users.

Mujeerkhan 00:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Er might want to read up on wikipedia policy.Criticism of Islam is not anti-Semitism as that only applies to Jews, not muslims. Don;t try to muddle the issue plz.

Plus, there are entire countries in the muslim world that massacre non-muslims and spread hate against them (Pakistan against Hindus, Saudi Arabia against Christians, Iran against Jews etc.) but many of their sources are considered legitimate because specific sources may or may not be extremist.It is clear that voi, partisan though it may be, is NOT extremist whereas milligazette clearly is extremist. Look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Partisan.2C_religious_and_extremist_websites

I have to warn you as you are making remarks against a particular relegion Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. . Mysorebhai10:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

So have you.Hkelkar 23:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone acknowledge voi as a terrorist group? Any government body? Any UN organisation? Interpol, UNPKF? Anybody? Now do you want me to list the number of governments and orgs that regard as terrorists al-Qaeda, Osama bin-Laden, Mahmoud Ahmadinezhad, Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hizbul Mujahiddeen and all of the other people and orgs that milligazette/imc/whoever support?Hkelkar 20:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Are RSS and VHP not doing the same in india. Mysorebhai10:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Neither of them are recognized as terrorists. Guess who is.Hkelkar 23:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus, voi does not evoke any hate speech whereas milligazette and others clearly do evoke hate speech, making them extremist websites. and vod not so, per WP:Reliable Sources, voi can be quoted with qualification (which I did) and milligazette can be quoted with LIMITED qualification, which they were NOT.Hkelkar 19:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Partisan, religious and extremist websites of Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources says that "The websites and publications of political parties and religious groups should be treated with caution, although neither political affiliation nor religious belief are in themselves reasons not to use a source".

NPOVReligious bias, including bias in which one religious viewpoint is given preference over OTHERS ,moreover VOD is a vanity press which spread extremists ideas like milligazette. one more thing i have not put milligazette in the article so there is no point in arguing about it.

See,all the other members agree to what i have said.Moreover you have edited the citation which were put forth by user Mujeerkhan

Mysorebhai10:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Brindavan Gardens

Is it verifiable that Tipu was involved in the construction of these gardens? I thought they date from Krishnaraja Wodeyar IV. --BostonMA 12:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of fact and cn tags

Mujeerkhan, in your most recent revert, you removed a number of fact and citation needed tags. That may not have been your intent, you may have simply wanted to make other changes, and the fact and citation needed tags were deleted as a side effect. I truly question some of the assertions made on this page. That does not mean that they are false, however, I would like to see some verifiable sources.

For example, it is claimed that Tipu was responsible for the establishment of a church. That would be an interest fact given that Tipu was a Muslim. If it is indeed the case, then it should be possible to produce a reference from a reliable source. Further, if he did establish a church, it would seem that the name of the church would be something appropriate to include in an encyclopedia article. What was the name of the church?

Similarly, it is claimed that Tipu was involved with the construction of Brinddavan Gardens. Again, I am not claiming that is false. However, I was under the impression that the gardens were constucted upon completion of the KRS dam. It may be the case that there were gardens existing there before the dam was constructed. But it would be nice to see a source substantiating that fact.

Please respond to the issues I have raised. Sincerely, --BostonMA 14:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone has made a mistake in editing and its not the gardens but construction of the dam "This dam is being constructed by the Khudadad Government... Any one brings under cultivation any uncultivated land and grows crops, vegetables or fruits by irrigating it with water from this dam will be given all encouragement and concessions.. the newly cultivated land shall belong to the cultivator and his descendants.. and no one shall dispossess him".-- Inscription on the foundation stone on K.R.S. Dam on the Cauvery River. ]

I have a doubt on the church but will try to figure it out...cheers Mujeerkhan 14:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have found a article on the mysore church which was built hazrath Tipu Sultan's French allies,but it does not say the name of the church but clearly mentions why it was built and where! Mujeerkhan 12:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. I note that the article to which you linked has a date of August 12, 2006, and it does not list its references. I therefore took the liberty to look at Misplaced Pages's own article from August 7 and noted the very strong resemblence between the two. It seems not beyond the realm of possibility that the article you cited took its information from Misplaced Pages. (I have seen that happen a number of times before). I would be very much more convinced if you could show a reference to Tippu establishing a church that gives some sort of "trail of responsibility". That is, a reference that gives its own references, or at leasts names a reputable scholar as the source. Again, I am not saying the information is incorrect, only that I am not convinced that the majority of experts in the field, in this case historians, would give credence to this story. --BostonMA 14:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Jacobin club

The present ref does not say that Tipu founded the Jacobin club, only that he was a member.Hkelkar 02:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In the article it clearly states as hazrath Tipu Sultan as a founding member and not a member! there were 59 early members of which hazrath Tipu Sultan was one of them. Is a there a difference between a founding member ( might be tipu as it was the very beginning of the club in mysore) and a member,could you please explain.

Mujeerkhan 12:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish. Nowhere in either of the references is the word "founder" even mentioned.Hkelkar 05:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

What do mean "rubbish" after the efforts i have made in the improvements of the article. oh "founder" is not given the sources which i have provide but its said in the article of hazrath tipu and we have to check who made the error. I have made so many corrections for the errors in the article and for quite a while you have been telling me whats "wrong" and whats "correct" instead of helping me out. is this the way you treat other wiki members for thier contributions.

Mujeerkhan 17:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I am perfectly within my rights to point out gibberish when it is there. Since it is a comment on content, not on contributor, it is neither incivility nor a personal attack. The fact remains that 90% of the article is balderdash, hooey, jive, bakwaas, drek,and other similar such descriptions from any number of languages that anyone can think of. What's more. the edits are colored by the worst case of religious/nationalist fundamentalism I have ever seen on wikipedia so far. Any reasonably intelligent person viewing this article would keel over and die of laughter at the obvious propaganda being touted here. This does not help the credibility of wikipedia as a legitimate source of objective information.If something is not done about this I am going to have to request for full administrator arbitration here.Hkelkar 08:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Mujeer has done quite a reasonable effort in "correcting the errors" inspite of his efforts he is indirectly being " personnel attacks from Hkelkar. As stated before Hkelkar is himself trying to colour the article with his own religious/nationalist fundamentalism. And every intelligent person viewing the article can see that Hkelkar wants to run the article on his ideologies. we should request the administrator to ban the user.

Naziakhanum13:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"A study of similar Maratha rockets (at the Battle of Panipat (1761), the British saw salvos of up to 2,000 fired simultaneously against them) at the Royal Woolwich Arsenal led to the publication of A Concise Account of the Origin and Progress of the Rocket System in 1804 by William Congreve, son of the arsenal's commandant. Congreve rockets find mention in the Star Spangled Banner." has no basis to be in the article as it is way out of the topic, any intelligent person would agree with that. The source provided says no year as of 1761 and the source has no words of "rockets" but it says fine brass gun!

Naziakhanum14:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

One more thing, what were the British doing in the third battle of panipat when it was fought between marathas and the afghans. the British saw salvos of up to 2,000 fired simultaneously against them, I PRESUME they meant Tipu and not Marathas Naziakhanum14:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Hkelkar, Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Mysorebhai18:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Since I did comment on content and not on contributor, this warning is bogus and, in on itself, a personal attack. I am reporting this immediately.Hkelkar 23:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this not NPOV

1. No one can refer a user with Islamic Thinkers Society which is linked with terrorism activities. 2. cant tell a user efforts as "rubbish" with the hard work he has done to the article, infact which amounts to personal attack! 3. "Plus, there are entire countries in the muslim world that massacre non-muslims and spread hate against them (Pakistan against Hindus, Saudi Arabia against Christians, Iran against Jews etc.)" this also amounts to personal attacks on a relegion which is indirectly said to a user.

Pls explain why each of the obove "comment on content and not on contributor" does not amount to personal attack on a user.

Mysorebhai11:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

None of what I said was not directed at any particular user,bbut to the content so it does not amount to a personal attack.If an editor chooses to personally identify with his content then it is his problem and he should see a psychiatrist as this is a mental disorder. Try and prove that any of my statements were an attack on a religion. The fact remains that every single thing that I said was correct and supportable by evidence. The CONTENT of the article is so hopelessly fundamentalist that it pretty much shoots the credibility of wikipedia straight to the ninth circle of purgatory (that's "Gehennem" in case you're wondering). All I want is for wikipedia articles to be SCHOLARLY ie report the facts and cite all perspectives on the subject as opinions. Calling Tipu Sultan a "patriot" (as opposed to saying that he is "widely regarded as a patriot") is laughable as he did not have anything to be a patriot of. The fact remains that, from the objective historian's point of view, he was a tin-pot monarch of an obscure province who tried to stand up to the British and lost, and there have been questions raised about his religious atrocities. If none of these controversies are mentioned then the article is one-sided. I will file an RfA on this article and get admins to drive out all this jingoist gobbledygook from the article.Hkelkar 01:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Even though I am a new user i can see the references citied in the main page has to be credited...anyone who goes through the refernces (patriot), (freedom fighter), (relegious tolerance). Even the government of karnataka, former Ramakrishna Hegde attented a meeting in remeberance of Tipu, he celebrations have also included visits from Government Ministers and speeches from those whose role as administrators, curators or researchers has also contributed to the growth of interest in Tipu (http://www.nationalgalleries.org/tipu/tipu344.htm) and and (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5168550.stm) adds Tipu as a forefont in resisting the British.

Recently a minister D.H. Shankaramurthy was critised for his remarks by other ministers like former Ministers H. Vishwanath and Sageer Ahmed, The former Union Minister C.K. Jaffer Sharief,KPCC vice-president H. Hanumanthappa, general secretaries Abdul Wahab and Prakash Rathod, Congress Chief Whip in the Legislative Council Saleem Ahmed. History scholar N.V. Narasimhaiah said the "British version of history painted Tipu Sultan negatively while in Mysore's records, there were any number of instances that proved unambiguously that he wanted to end the colonial rule. Tipu Sultan, whose kingdom once panned the entire South, has been described as the ideal king by Mahatma Gandhi in Young India" the Karnataka Pradesh Congress Committee on Wednesday demanded that the Minister should be dropped from the H.D. Kumaraswamy Ministry.(http://www.thehindu.com/2006/09/21/stories/2006092120940500.htm) This article cleary shows how remarks of a minister created a controvesy in the house and majority of minister were against him. Marxist West Bengal government organised a three-day event to commemorate the 201st death anniversary of Tipu Sultan. (http://www.tipusultan.org/even19.htm). Eminent scholars and academics on Tipu (http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/24/stories/2006022407620500.htm),

former Chief minister Chief Minister J H. Patel, who chaired the first meeting last year, was emphatic that the government should observe the bicentenary in a fitting manner. "History repeats itself but Tipu will not be repeated," he is reported to have said. To avoid any criticism and ensure that the commemoration is held in every corner of Karnataka, the government has enlarged the representation of members on the committee. (http://home.btconnect.com/tipusultan/even3.htm)

Naming of airport as "Tipu sultan" (,

The state government is positive on tipu but a few ministers wont make a difference. Sorry members i just joined and dont know how to arrange and discuss.

Shezaad786 8:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the matter is controversial but nonetheless, it must be mentioned. The controversy is significant and has had an impact in Karnataka. If we take a position on the issue (for or against) then the article is biased and that is not allowed regardless of any of our personal opinions etc. If you look at my edits of the controversy, you will see that it is entirely NPOV and does not take any position in favor of Tipu Sultan or against him, but the fundamentalist nutbags reverted it anyway.

The diff is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tipu_Sultan&diff=77486242&oldid=77482894

As it stands right now, the article is absurdly POV and smacks of nationalism and Islamist fundamentalism, and Tipu is portrayed as some sort of latter-Day Robin Hood-cum-Robert-de-Bruce folk hero in the same manner as as Bruce and William Wallace were portrayed in Mel Gibson's atrocious film Braveheart (and even article on Robert Bruce is unbiased). Misplaced Pages is not a nationalist soapbox, whether you are Indian Muslim or a Scottish Catholic. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia.Hkelkar 03:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

what do you mean by " Tipu is portrayed as some sort of latter-Day Robin Hood-cum-Robert-de-Bruce folk hero in the same manner as as Bruce and William Wallace were portrayed in Mel Gibson's atrocious film Braveheart" do u compare him to a villian after so many things he had done to the freedom struggle. UR completely wrong in your approach..he was a saint( he is regarded as a wali allah as mentioned b4) his grave is a dargha and a mazar, what if someone says negative about Sai Baba.

Ur the only one who has negative issues.The issue is not the article but you. as ur trying to implement ur hindutva principles into the article..I am not a muslim nor a hindu but a human being!

True indian

I am not even a Hindu damn it so how can I be "Hindutva"? Care to explain that? I don't give a beaver's damn whether Tipu was a saint or Judas Iscariot reborn! I want an objective and unbiased portrayal. Many people in Scotland regard Robert Bruce as a saint also but that does not mean that the wikipedia article needs to portray him as one. Get it Yoksh?

It is obvious to anyone of scholarly disposition that this article is trying to portay the Islamist POV of the "Enlightened Muslim Khilafat" in India (that too by citing the example of a relatively unknown ruler of a tiny handkerchief of a kingdom: Most Islamists typically deify Aurangzeb as the hero, but here we have a particularly nasty breed of localized Islamist tribalism at work), a patently ridiculous claim.Hkelkar

another personal attack

Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks SAYS "Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious or ethnic epithets directed against another contributor" amounts to NPOV. your remarks" nasty breed of localized Islamist tribalism at work" and "but the fundamentalist nutbags reverted it anyway" to other members,does certainly amounts to personal attack. Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.

Mujeerkhan10:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well you (or your sockpuppet) made attacks calling me "Hindutva" despite the fact that I am not even a Hindu. Plus, I didn't direct my ire at anyone in particular so how do you know I was referring to you?Hkelkar 08:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

well, the person who called the abusive words was not me and i dont have a "sockpuppet"and my earlier comment refered to "other members" which i commented on behalf of all other members. And for your kind information i am half muslim and half hindu( my parents being from different relegions) comment like "hindutva" also hurted me

See in my earlier comments i tired to negiotiate between you and members, but since your words posted earlier hurted me.

Mujeerkhan17:50 September 2006 (UTC)

all users

This discussion has gone ashtray and way beyond the purpose to which it was intended for.So all users can you all please help in developing the article and not quarelling among ourselves as this will leave us in a qaugmire! Mujeerkhan18:00 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry if it "hurted" you. But you must understand my position if you think calmly. Why don't you simply compare this travesty of an article to other articles about similar historical figures like Charlemagne,Robert I of Scotland, William Wallace, and many others and maybe you can see the problem here. None of those articles mention praise words in the first person, and any controversy associated with them is discussed and listed. In particular, look at Richard I of England and his antisemitism Richard I of England#Anti-Semitic violence, in which two views are presented.Hkelkar 11:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem bro. I understand your point,but negative issues on tipu sultan creates a havoc as he is considered a "holy person" in an around cities like Bangalore, Mysore, Mangalore where people of all faiths praise him and regard him as a wali allah, Shahid or a martyr. I know wikipedia does not care a word about this , but as always culture and relegion makes the difference!

Mujeerkhan18:49 September 2006 (UTC)

I respect your contention. However, if we succumb to these type of intimidation tactics by religious fanatics on wikipedia, then this encyclopedia will lose all credibility. Bear in mind that Richard the Lionheart is also considered a "Holy man" of sorts by many English Christians (he fought the crusades which was a holy war in christianity), yet christians would be offended by allegations of antisemitism towards him but that does not prevent scholars from editing the article appropriately. The same rules apply here also.Hkelkar 12:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Hkelkar

I absolutely agree with Hkelkar we cannot let History to be corrupted by some Muslim Fanatics who claim Tipu as a saint and a good Ruler. Tipu was religious fanatic and was hell bent on destroying Kannada culture, the engraving on his grave says that Tipu died for iSLAM WHAT PROOF ELSE THE Jehadi Muslim fanatics need that he never cared for his people his only love was to save his illegal rule of Mysore and spread Islam . .vikramji

tipu was found here , "The interior of this chamber till the reach of the arch is decorated with paintings that resemble the stripes of a tiger. While Hyder Ali and his wife's tombs are covered with velvet cloth. Tipu's tomb is covered with cloth that appears like tiger skin. The corridor houses the tombs of Hyder Ali's family members. It is heartening to note that the paintings inside the chamber have never been subjected to chemical treatment. Footwear is strictly prohibited in and around the tomb" there is no mention of grave carvings as you mentioned Shezaad786 23:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Anti Kannada

Some fanatic who cannot digest truth has deleted the Anti Kannada material , I have put it back and i warn the fanatics from deleating it,.vikramji

Could you please give a verible source. Mujeerkhan 23:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

here is the proof from which it says he was not anti kannada , , , ,

Shezaad786 22:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Those are not "proofs". They are counterarguments. Counterarguments can, of course, be offerred provided you don;t take a biased position on them (as you just did). Might want to look up the dictionary meanings and wikipedia policies regarding several points of contention here.Like I said, nationalist/religious jingoism hard at work.Hkelkar 18:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Vikramji the link does not seem to work, can you get some other source or a better link for this ? Plus can you tone down the comments a bit, they are inflammatory, the same point can be made making it less POV. Haphar 11:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

IU agree with Vikramji's premise but also agree with Haphar that present tone of the edits are too inflammatory and needs to be made more NPOV (look at the history for my last edits and check).Hkelkar 13:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hkelkar,Due to the edits of vikramji I have edited ( from history of the article ) and put back the last edit you had made from the history edits. Because there should no more conflicts untill the issue has been resolved, do you agree.

Mujeerkhan 23:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Go to the page Vgowda user page and it says "I am Vikram Gowda from India". So, when someone with the same first name and a similarly abysmal standard of english, coupled with a fiery need to defend this article against an "anti kannada" bias - vikramji suddenly appears on the scene .. well, I think vikramji is just User:Vgowda operating under an alias. This article is becoming unusable - there are far better ways to resolve these differences than carry out edit wars based on statements based on poor research, or even on unsubstantiated folklore, liberally peppered with abuses in ungrammatical english. srs 10:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?

Some sections of this article as it stands are shockingly POV and will not be taken seriously by any neutral observer. This is a shame as Tipu was an important (although relatively minor) figure in the history of India. I can understand how he has come to be reinvented as a Muslim hero and freedom fighter (every nation needs its myths and legends), but this is a modern interpretation. He was an basically an opportunist like his father. The main reason for his anglophobia and violent opposition to the East India Company was not over religious matters or even nationalistic ones; it was that it was an obstacle to the glory of Mysore and thus his own expansionism. He was certainly pragmatic enough to enlist (infidel) French aid in opposing the British! His rule might be characterised by the phrase 'enlightened self-interest' - he knew who he could use and who he could safely get rid of. This was no different, or less cruel, than any other ruler of the time. He was even prepared to sue for peace with the British when they marched on Mysore, but of course by this time it was either him or them!
The article could, if it ever escapes from the bias of editors with an agenda to push, benefit from some mention of the 'Tipoo Tiger' organ in the V&A and his general obsession with the tiger (as shown in his Dream Book, where it is associated with exterminating infidels).
I hope this posting does not offend anyone, though I'm sure it will. I am neither Indian or Muslim: my interest in the subject comes from an interest in the life of the Duke of Wellington, who fought at Mysore early in his military career. 'Tipoo Sahib' has a special place in the annals of the British Army as a brave, resourceful adversary, and his memory deserves better than to be turned into propaganda to push a political or religious POV. EyeSerene 10:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep. I fully agree (I made similar arguments in posts above). I made edits showcasing controversies surrounding his activities (allegations of massacring Hindus etc.) but the Fundamentalists rverted them and started some rather nasty attacks.I am planning on filing an RfA on this matter soon.Hkelkar

This is clearly an emotive subject, but to include a section in the article on the controversy surrounding Tipu's modern-day image would seem to be a reasonable move. This has been done in other articles, for example that on the Boxer Rebellion (pointing out the difference between the atrocities they comitted and the modern Chinese portrayal of them as patriotic freedom fighters). It is perfectly possible to do this without being judgmental or taking sides - after all, to acknowledge that both Tipu and his father had their fair share of blood on their hands is not a personal attack on them, it is only stating widely accepted facts, and that is the purpose of Misplaced Pages ;-). I hesitate to do it myself though as I have no wish to start a revert war! EyeSerene 18:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I will be filing a full RfA on this article shortly so I will get admin action against several users here.Hkelkar 22:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Fundamentalist Propaganda

I absolutely agree with Hkelkarand EyeSerene, people have the right to know the truth, ONLY TRUTH PREVAILS IN THE END, Tipu was brave no question about that , but that just does not make him a patriot or national hero as his rule of mysore was itself illegal and was against the wishes of the people. He was desperate to retain his rule and nothing else, His atrocities against the Nairs of kerala and Kodavas of coorg is well documented in the respective articles. The few Fundemantilist fanatics want to hide this , and Mr mujbeerkahn, just having same name does not mean Vgowda user page and me are the same , i have been here on wikipedia long before any of u, so stop finding excuses and come out of your inferiority complex and accept the fact. Dont act like the Taliban. vikramji

How many proofs do you guys need! Another nasty remark "fundamentalist" which agian is an NPOV if u cant digest the truth then pls keep in ur own body. user gowda is no other than but Hkelkar himself.And if you are him i am sure you want to make some more idoitic comments

USERS Kathanar,Ben W Bell talk, Bodhidhamma,Hornplease have given several warnings to Mr Hkelkar in just 2 days for vandalising and spreading fundamentalism! all users pls check talk page of Hkelkarremarks against Kancha Ilaiah , Votebank, Godhra Train Burning, Indian Buddhist Movement ,Shudra ,Dalit you will surely find something worse! he is trying to spread fundamentalism himself.

Naziakhanum19:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

All right. Another personal attack to be reported.Hkelkar 21:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus, the same users have been warned by Ben W Bell (an admin) for vandalism and personal attacks. I believe you are twisting the facts to smear me and trying to tout an agenda of hate. This will be filed as a complaint, of course.Hkelkar 21:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You have vandalised the article by edting, the last edit was by you..please have a see on wiki policies on disputes and personal attack.it was you who said fundamentalist perhaps it is time for you to have a proper look on wiki policies.If u want to report me then please carry on.

Naziakhanum 08:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Neutral

If Tipu fought the British only for his kingdom, so did Rani of Jhansi. So if Tipu is not a national figure, please apply same rule to Rani of Jhansi. Let's try and be balanced here, sure we do not have to glorify Tipu, but there is no need to run him down ( based on political stances rather than history) either. Haphar 06:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the Rani of Jhansi article does not refer to her as a "patriot" in the first person nor make laughable claims about being a "linguist". What's next, are the Mujahids going to give Rodney King a PhD???Hkelkar 07:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I did say both sides need to tone it down. And Rodney King would get is more likely to get a Phd from nation of islam rather than the mujahids. Haphar 09:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Sock Puppets

I think Mujeerkhan,Hassan,iFaqeer,Mysorebhai,Tipu Hero and Naziakhanum are all sock puppets of the same person, which i guess is Mujbeerakhan,can somebody verify he computer ID's please. Somebody tried to put in a Caste angle to Religious presecution of Hindus.

• Vikramji

This is your last warning.I am not a sock puppet and please can you be more civil by signing in properly and put date, time etc. and stop using calling me as "Mujbeerakhan" as it has some other meaning and you are purposely calling me by that name.

Mujeerkhan 20:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Distorting Facts

Firstly, Mr Mujebrakhan is hell bent on distorting facts by claiming that Kannada was not suitable for administration, he should go and read History books before coming to such stupid and baseless conclusion, kannada has been the administrative language of many great empires like the Rastrakuta, Vijayanagar, Hoysala and Kadamaba to name a few even before advent of Islam and when the Arabs and probably Tipu's ancestors were living a life of Nomads. Kannada language is one of the most advanced and sopisticated languages in the world, Mujebrakhan probably doesn't know much about Kannada or Karnataka , but still he claims he knows everything about tippu. Secondly, About the claim by Mujebra that Tipu,s army consisted of people from backward casted is absolutely ridiculous and shows his castist attitudes, The mysore marajas themselves were from Yadava/Kuruba clan and does that mean they were backward, He is creating many lies to prove wrong as right. Vikramji29 sep06 There is no point in talking with you and i am going to file a complain against you

Mujeerkhan 20:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Wake Up, Kannad fools, your language is a failed language and it wont take you anywhere !!! Look at your rulers - Mysore Rajas - were puppets all the way !!!! First, Puppets of the Deccan Sultanates, then puppets of Mughal Empire, then puppets of the Marathas, then puppets of Hyder Ali, then Tipu Sultan kicked them away, and then again puppets of the British !!!! Big Shame !!!! How many times will they become puppets ?? It was really good that the greatest ruler of India, Tipu Sultan encouraged Persian and Urdu in Mysore, otherwise our Karnatak Muslim brothers would've been stuck speaking a failed language !!!! Speaking of language does Kannada has the beauty of Urdu, or Muslims.Hkelkar 12:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)the brilliance of Persian ? Naah... And Kannad leaders are caught napping in the Parliament ! Zzzzzz... !!! Still, time hasn't gone... Let the Karanataka government make Urdu an official language and see how Karnataka will prosper. I advise all Cannad people to convert into Urdu and/or Persian. You will really prosper. - Ismael Tarkan 11:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Racist vandal (see contribs+vandalism reverts by other users) reported.Hkelkar 12:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Update:User:Ismael Tarkan has been indefinitely blocked from editing wikipedia.Hkelkar 12:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You have gone too far and this is WP:NPOV and directly assualting a certain community and a language.Dont make uncivil statements like "converts" to urdu...that is immoral.And your statements like "failed language" really amuses me as kannada is spoken by nearly 45-50 million people and to make urdu as "official language" is really ridiculous as it has no sense and do you know what impact will it have..disaster! Dont forget we are muslims and we respect all relegions no matter where we live.and we would even lay our lives to protect our country and our homes...remember we are not oppressors but take steps not to be oppressed..that is what Islam teaches us! Mujeerkhan 20:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Helkar I think we should stop editing and make a decision, survey and something likethat, which is accepted by all contradicting parties and no more nonsence edits. I was just going through the article and the english grammer sounded pathetic.

Mujeerkhan 21:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I have already started the process in mediation. There is a 5 day wait time. The page is here:

Misplaced Pages:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/September_2006/Hkelkar

Hkelkar 12:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

That is great..but let me warn you, never call a muslim a mohammedian as this means 'muslims workship mohammed as god and not Allah this is a direct insult to muslims as we are followers of islam. perhaps you should apologize to muslim users.

Mujeerkhan 21:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Well the term "Mohammedean" is generally used by scholars to refer to Muslims so I used it also. There was no insult implied, nor did I make any claims that Muslims "worshipped" Mohamed. Plus, I'm sure that Jews, Hindus, christians, and Baha'ii would feel the same way about being routinely called "Kaffir" or "Dhimmi" of "Dar-al-Harb" yet the terms are frequently used by Muslims.Hkelkar 12:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You are sick bro! did anyone called you a kafir or what..lol looks like u have been abused by those words...how many times dude and for how many years..ah.ah ah! sounds like ur a hinduvitan who kills other people for money but later on kills his own family...lol

Goingindia no time!

absurd, amounts to personnal attacks. This is out of the discussion on the related topic, so please discuss relevant to the topic.THANK YOU.

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