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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Hkelkar (talk | contribs) at 11:36, 9 December 2006 (→Formation of India Information). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Guidelines for editing the India page
  • Text to be written in Indian English (spellings are modelled on British English)
  • Units in metric should be spelled out with the converted English units abbreviated in parentheses per Manual of Style.
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  • All sections are a summary of more detailed articles. If you find any points missing, please add it in the section's main article rather than on this page to keep this page size within reasonable limits.
  • You may also discuss India related matters at: Misplaced Pages:Notice board for India-related topics.

Two events mentioned in this article are an August 15 selected anniversary and January 26 selected anniversary.

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Main article: Country

A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity. When referring to a specific polity, the term "country" may refer to a sovereign state, states with limited recognition, constituent country, or a dependent territory.

Lead section

Shortcut See also: WP:Lead section
For lead length see, #Size
Opening paragraphs
Further information: MOS:INTRO

The article should start with a good simple introduction, giving name of the country, general location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia). Also, add a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for (for example the mentioning of windmills in the Netherlands article). The primary purpose of a Misplaced Pages lead is not to summarize the topic, but to summarize the content of the article.

First sentence
Further information: MOS:FIRST

The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what the subject is, and where. It should be in plain English.

The etymology of a country's name, if worth noting and naming disputes, may be dealt with in the etymology section. Foreign-languages, pronunciations and acronyms may also belong in the etymology section or in a note to avoid WP:LEADCLUTTER.

Example:

checkY Sweden, formally the Kingdom of Sweden, is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.
☒N Sweden,(Swedish: Sverige ) formally the Kingdom of Sweden,(Swedish: Konungariket Sverige ) is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.

Detail, duplication and tangible information
Shortcut Further information: Misplaced Pages:How to create and manage a good lead section

Overly detailed information or infobox data duplication such as listing random examples, excessive numbered statistics or naming individuals should be reserved for the infobox or body of the article. The lead prose should provide clear, relevant information through links to relevant sub-articles about the country an relevant terms, rather than listing random stats and articles with minimal information about the country.

Example:

checkY A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.
☒N A highly developed country, Canada has the seventeenth-highest nominal per-capita income globally and the sixteenth-highest ranking in the Human Development Index. Its advanced economy is the tenth-largest in the world and the 14th for military expenditure by country, Canada is part of several major international institutions including the United Nations, NATO, the G7, the Group of Ten, the G20, the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and the Organization of American States.

Infobox

There is a table with quick facts about the country called an infobox. A template for the table can be found at the bottom of this page.

Although the table can be moved out to the template namespace (to e.g. ]) and thus easen the look of the edit page, most Wikipedians still disapprove as of now, see the talk page.

The contents are as follows:

  • The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption. If there are several official names (languages), list all (if reasonably feasible). The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s). This is not a parameter to list every recognized language of a country, but rather for listing officially recognize national languages.
  • The conventional short-form name of the country, recognised by the majority of the English-speaking world; ideally, this should also be used for the name of the article.
  • A picture of the national flag. You can find flags at the List of flags. A smaller version should be included in the table itself, a larger-sized version in a page titled Flag of <country>, linked to via the "In Detail" cell. Instead of two different images, use the autothumbnail function that wiki offers.
  • A picture of the national coat of arms. A good source is required for this, but not yet available. It should be no more than 125 pixels in width.
  • Below the flag and coat of arms is room for the national motto, often displayed on the coat of arms (with translation, if necessary).
  • The official language(s) of the country. (rot the place to list every recognized or used language)
  • The political status. Specify if it is a sovereign state or a dependent territory.
  • The capital city, or cities. Explain the differences if there are multiple capital cities using a footnote (see example at the Netherlands).
  • If the data on the population is recent and reliable, add the largest city of the country.
  • Land area: The area of the country in square kilometres (km²) and square miles (sq mi) with the world-ranking of this country. Also add the % of water, which can be calculated from the data in the Geography article (make it negligible if ~0%).
  • Population: The number of inhabitants and the world-ranking; also include a year for this estimate (should be 2000 for now, as that is the date of the ranking). For the population density you can use the numbers now available.
  • GDP: The amount of the gross domestic product on ppp base and the world ranking. also include the amount total and per head.
  • HDI: Information pertaining to the UN Human Development Index – the value, year (of value), rank (with ordinal), and category (colourised as per the HDI country list).
  • Currency; the name of the local currency. Use the pipe if the currency name is also used in other countries: ].
  • Time zone(s); the time zone or zones in which the country is relative to UTC
  • National anthem; the name of the National anthem and a link to the article about it.
  • Internet TLD; the top-level domain code for this country.
  • Calling Code; the international Calling Code used for dialing this country.
Lead map

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC).

Sections

Further information: Misplaced Pages:Summary style and Misplaced Pages:Too much detail Shortcut

A section should be written in summary style, containing just the important facts. Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. Main article fixation is an observed effect that editors are likely to encounter in county articles. If a section it is too large, information should be transferred to the sub-article. Avoid sections focusing on criticisms or controversies. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections.

Comparison table of section sizes in country articles as a percentage of article size. Click image for latest data.

Articles may consist of the following sections:

  • Etymology sections are often placed first (sometimes called name depending on the information in the article). Include only if due information is available.
  • History – An outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs, depending on complexity of history), including some detail on current events. Sub-article: "History of X"
  • Politics – Overview of the current governmental system, possibly previous forms, some short notes on the parliament. Sub-article: "Politics of X"
  • Administrative divisions – Overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (and subsequent levels, if available) (e.g. provinces, states, departments, districts, etc.) and give the English equivalent name, when available. Also include overseas possessions. This section should also include an overview map of the country and subdivisions, if available.
  • Geography – Details of the country's main geographic features and climate. Historical weather boxes should be reserved for sub articles. Sub-article: "Geography of X"
  • Economy – Details on the country's economy, major industries, bit of economic history, major trade partners, a tad comparison etc. Sub-article: "Economy of X"
  • Demographics – Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Uncontextualized data and charts should be avoided. (See WP:NOTSTATS and WP:PROSE) Sub-article: "Demographics of X".
  • Culture – Summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known cultural contributions. Caution should be taken to ensure that the sections are not simply a listing of names or mini biographies of individuals accomplishments. Good example Canada#Sports. Sub-article: "Culture of X".
  • See also – 'See also" sections of country articles normally only contain links to "Index of country" and "Outline of country" articles, alongside the main portal(s).
  • References – Sums up "Notes", "References", and all "Further Reading" or "Bibliography"
  • External links – Links to official websites about the country. See WP:External links
Size
Graphic showing article quality, size, contentiousness, protection, and vital level. Click for live data.
Shortcut Main pages: Misplaced Pages:Article size and Misplaced Pages:Summary style § Article size
Articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews generally consists of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 words as per WP:SIZERULE, with a lead usually 250 to 400 words as per MOS:LEADLENGTH.
  • Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
  • Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
  • Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,834 words) "readable prose size"
  • Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
  • Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
  • East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8,152 words) "readable prose size"
  • Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9,092 words) "readable prose size"
  • New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,761 words) "readable prose size"
  • Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,178 words) "readable prose size"
Hatnote

The link should be shown as below: Avoid link clutter of multiple child articles in a hierarchical setup as hatnotes. Important links/articles should be incorporated into the prose of the section. For example, Canada#Economy is a summary section with a hatnote to Economy of Canada that summarizes the history with a hatnote to Economic history of Canada. See WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE for more recommended hatnote usages.

checkY== Economy ==Main article: Economy of Canada ☒N== Economy ==Main article: Economy of Canada See also: Petroleum industry in Canada and Agriculture in Canada Further information: Economic history of Canada and Early Canadian banking system

Charts

Shortcut

As prose text is preferred, overly detailed statistical charts and diagrams that lack any context or explanation such as; economic trends, weather boxes, historical population charts, and past elections results, etc, should be reserved for main sub articles on the topic as per WP:DETAIL as outlined at WP:NOTSTATS.

Galleries

Shortcut

Galleries or clusters of images are generally discouraged as they may cause undue weight to one particular section of a summary article and may cause accessibility problems, such as sand­wich­ing of text, images that are too small or fragmented image display for some readers as outlined at WP:GALLERY. Articles that have gone through modern FA and GA reviews generally consists of one image for every three or four paragraph summary section, see MOS:ACCESS#FLOAT and MOS:SECTIONLOC for more information.

Footers

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Transclusions

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This section is transcluded from Help:Transclusion. (edit | history) Shortcut Further information: Misplaced Pages:Transclusion costs and benefits

Like many software technologies, transclusion comes with a number of drawbacks. The most obvious one being the cost in terms of increased machine resources needed; to mitigate this to some extent, template limits are imposed by the software to reduce the complexity of pages. Some further drawbacks are listed below.

Lists of countries

To determine which entities should be considered separate "countries" or included on lists, use the entries in ISO 3166-1 plus the list of states with limited recognition, except:

  • Lists based on only a single source should follow that source.
  • Specific lists might need more logical criteria. For example, list of sovereign states omits non-sovereign entities listed by ISO-3166-1. Lists of sports teams list whichever entities that have teams, regardless of sovereignty. Lists of laws might follow jurisdiction boundaries (for example, England and Wales is a single jurisdiction).

For consistency with other Misplaced Pages articles, the names of entities do not need to follow sources or ISO-3166-1. The names used as the titles of English Misplaced Pages articles are a safe choice for those that are disputed.

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Notes

  1. Swedish: Sverige ; Finnish: Ruotsi; Meänkieli: Ruotti; Northern Sami: Ruoŧŧa; Lule Sami: Svierik; Pite Sami: Sverji; Ume Sami: Sverje; Southern Sami: Sveerje or Svöörje; Yiddish: שוועדן, romanized: Shvedn; Scandoromani: Svedikko; Kalo Finnish Romani: Sveittiko.
  2. Swedish: Konungariket Sverige
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Punjabi cinema?

Pardon my ignorance, but will somebody please explain how Punjabi cinema is a 'strong' cinema industry? Or is someone also counting all the 'hindi' movies that come out with liberal doses of punjabi thrown in? And why on earth is the wikilink for Punjabi cinema(??) pointing to some movie? Is that the only movie that's been made in the history of Punjabi cinema? I am surprised that a new ip user is bitten when he/she tries to make some edits and I am given hell when I try to retain them, but many edits over the past few days pass unscrutinised. Somebody please explain. Sarvagnya 05:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not an important industry as yet in India. Rgds--Darrendeng 06:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It should be removed. =Nichalp «Talk»= 10:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

No mention of LAND OF THE ARYANS?

Most Indians, (along with Iranians, Afghans, etc.) are of Aryan heritage. Most of the evidence that Aryans came from India.....is.....in India.....no Euorope....In ancient times the land was known as Bharat, or , land of the Aryans,....and yet this article acts like India's oldest civiliazation was the "Indus Valley" people?.....India's history goes longer & deeper then that....And I think there should be mention of its Aryan heritage 71.119.249.117 03:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, why don't you add it then?--SUIT 04:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
No it is not necessary. See the comments in the header. =Nichalp «Talk»= 10:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Revolutionary changes to the article

I think it is a bad idea to make revolutionary changes to an FA without consulting other editors, in particular when they are unsourced. Doing so tends to decrease the quality of the article, and as an FA is supposed to be of highest quality, the article may be de-FAed as a result. The same applies to adding on sentences, as it may decrease the flow of the article if not done carefully, and over time will result in a loss of an FA. Thanks, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Indian Military section.

Military of India

Main article: Military of India

India maintains the third largest military force in the world. The armed forces of India consists of the Indian Army, Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy. There are auxillary forces like the Indian Paramilitary Forces, the Indian Coast Guard and the Strategic Forces Command. India is a declared nuclear weapons nation. The Indian Army maintains the second largest active troops in the world. The Indian Navy is the fifth largest in terms of manpower and the Indian Air Force is the fourth largest in the world. The President of India is the supreme commander of the Indian armed forces.

Expand it here and later can be added to the main article. Chanakyathegreat 04:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Current draft is too choppy =Nichalp «Talk»= 10:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

will scripts be removed from this article as well seeing as they do not help?

Misplaced Pages:Vernacular_scripts--D-Boy 06:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ayyavazhi Discussion

moved to Talk:India/Ayyavazhi— Preceding unsigned comment added by BostonMA (talk • contribs) 19:02, December 3, 2006 (UTC)

Repetitive Edits in India Lead and InfoBox

I just wanted to point out that there is one kind of edit that keeps reappearing in the lead on the India page. It is the sentence:

India emerged as a modern nation-state in 1947, when the subcontinental populace expelled all non-native traders in an intense movement of social reforms and forged it into a single nation.

This edit is identical to edits made by user:Himalayanashoka and IP user:202.56.248.6 in September and October. The latter users were also tampering with the info box, inserting "Indus Valley Civilization" instead of "UK", etc., which resulted in multiple blocks for them: user talk:Himalayanashoka and user talk:202.56.248.6. Now the identical edit is being made by a new IP: 202.83.106.103. My concern is that this user (or users) refuse to engage in debate, but keep inserting the same text or making the same info box changes, resulting in extra work for other editors. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC) (Corrected Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC))

I have blocked the user who just tampered with the infobox. =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
This line has been put to rephrase the line "Colonised as part of the...." It is pathetic to see that the language used is very Eurocentric and not at all Indocentric whereas the article is Indic. The line "Colonised as part of the...." is highly derogatory and Eurocentric and must be presented in a Indocentric manner wothout changing the meaning and hence the term "expulsion" instead of "colonised". Pls discuss so that it can be changed. User:Himalayanashoka
Why is it derogatory? Please provide concrete proof and not your personal biases. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Formation of India Information

There has been lot of edit redits on the formation of India information. This is finally being put here again in the Talk Page. India as a country did not suddenly appear one fine night in the mid of August 1947. It has always been there existing as a continuous territory. Even China and other European countries have had chequered history but they always trace their existence to recorded yore. A country like France which was occupied by Germany does not celebrate its Independence Day from Nazi Germany. "Colonised" is an Eurocentric term whereas Indians called it "Quit India" or "expelling the non-natives". Indic articles should not present Eurocentrism views but present as viewed from India. Japanese history never admits of WW2 atrocities while it is known and studied worldwide. The lexical presentation of a country article must be such that it presents a positive but factually correct picture. I thus strongly feel that the words such as "Colonised" should be rephrased and "Formation" be restored to the earlier one and not just "Independence". Please discuss. Himalayanashoka 13:01, 06 Dec 2006 (UTC)

Where are your sources? Per Misplaced Pages policy, we need citations, no matter how cogent the argument. Please cite a reliable Indian history book or journal article that uses "expelling the non-natives" and that doesn't use the word "colonised" or "colonial". Misplaced Pages doesn't take any one view; both the colonized and the colonizer are represented. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The word "Colonised" or "Colonizer" itself is Eurocentric and derogatory. So don't put Eurocentric views on an Indic site. Indic sites must be interpreted from an Indic point of view or should be fully impartial without derogatory words. Otherwise please agree for an Independence Day for France from Nazi Germany. Misplaced Pages has always represented an impartial interpretation of history. Textbooks in India (NCERT/State boards) always mention the non-natives/British as occupiers and non-bonafide residents trying to take over the reigns of governance. The word colonizer is not mentioned. The NCERT books also mentions that most Indian kingdoms deliberately gave over the reigns to foster development very much aware of the fact that as in the past any non-natives will be thrown away or absorbed. And this is what happened as always.
To not to divert from the Formation topic, India as a country always existed. Of course the map has not been the same. This is true for China, Europe, NAmerica as well. So there has to be a Formation column starting with the Indus Valley Civilization. The IVC is very much connected to the Indian Vedic culture (pls refer wikipedia article). It was this Vedic culture which gave rise to the Indian writing scripts, languages and culture over a period of 4000 yrs. This did not happen overnight on 15 August 1947. India still follows most national symbology and Hindu laws, derived from the time of Emperor Ashok's reign and not the non-native incursions. So essentially the IVC and Emperor Ashok's empire must be included in the formation part. Himalayanashoka 16:41, 06 Dec 2006 (UTC)
This article is about the "Republic of India". Period. That settles it. Please come back when the Govt of India declares something else as the independence day. Thanks. --Ragib 08:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Comments like this with "Period and that settles it" is NOT acceptable. So... does the history of Germany starts only when it became a proper democratic country after 1945, or France after the Fifth Republic?? You are from Bangladesh, a country which only came into existence in 1971. So you will have a certain mentality shaped by your local textbooks of which date to begin your history. You will not understand this. This article is not about "Republic of India". If its is like this please remove all the formation history in France, and particularly formation information in China. Himalayanashoka 16:50, 06 Dec 2006 (UTC)
I'm definitely NOT saying that India's or Bangladesh's history began when they became independent in recent history. In fact, I have argued about this a lot, and will definitely state again that the history of countries extend to the distant past. However, they did became officially independent on the dates the respective govt recognize as their independence days. You have to respect the Govt of India's decision to observe 15th August as the independence day. Thanks. --Ragib 08:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Now you sound reasonable. Its precisely because of your stated reason, that the formation part essentially needs to be put. Also the concepts of Independence is Eurocentric. France celebrates liberation from Germany in a different way rather than as Independence even though they were nothing short of being governed directly by Germany for quite sometime. What I mean to say is that in both the sites (.IN, .BD) emphasis has to be put on the rich continuing less documented history rather than the immediate visible documented history. I believe the admin should now unprotect the IN site to put in the formation info and rephrase "colonised" with "expelled". Himalayanashoka 17:15, 06 Dec 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages, unfortunately, is only about well-documented history. See No original research. As I said earlier, you can make the most eloquent and heartfelt arguments, but we still need the citations, chapter and verse. Please provide them. Not "NCERT books," but something like the ones below, which, for example, use the word "colonial" on the page numbers given:
  • Kulke, Hermann and Dietmar Rothermund. 2004. A History of India. Routledge. 448 pages. ISBN 0415329205. p 260-266.
  • Wolpert, Stanley. 2003. A New History of India. Oxford University Press. 544 pages. ISBN 0195166787. p 265.
Again: please provide the citations in the format described; unless you do so, you will be wasting your time and ours. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler, please do not give references of only European books here in an Indic article. If you want to contribute and argue then you read some Indian history books (NCERT). Do not contribute to this page or this article if you only have foreign publications and do not know anything about Indic history and perception. Please do not waste your time with the India article and please concentrate on other articles pertaining to your domain of knowledge. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Himalayanashoka (talk • contribs). at 03:51, 7 December 2006
Himalayanashoka, the onus is on you to cite your sources. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Himalayanashoka:

  • Why is colonised a POV?
Colonised is a eurocentric POV because history textbooks in India always emphasizes on expelling non-natives, foreigners, British. So the proper Indic term is "Expulsion" not "Colonised". Do not try to follow whatever European textbooks write. Read some Indian history books and please give their reference, since I see that you are a regular contributor to the India page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Himalayanashoka (talk • contribs). at 03:51, 7 December 2006
Who said I am quoting European text books? And please, there's no need for that condescending attitude. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • India as an independent unified nation-state was never formed before 1947. It existed was a collection of kingdoms before that.
You should say just before the British arrived. Before there was a whole country called Hindustan, a whole Maratha empire, a whole Mauryan empire. Have you read Germany's history that it was known as the Holy Roman empire before becoming Germany? Your above statement is factually wrong.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Himalayanashoka (talk • contribs). at 03:51, 7 December 2006
Agreed, but they were all nations, not a nation-state. Please read the definations of both. In the history section, we have documented the history of India since it was first inhabited by man. I fail to see why you are still agitated. You apparently have not read my comments closely. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • To answer your question, YES the nation-state did appear overnight.
How do you say that India sprang up overnight? Have you read other countries histories how they have come up? Have you ever read the history of India textbooks in your school? Please do not come up with stupid illiterate fingerprint statements. Your statement is factually wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Himalayanashoka (talk • contribs). at 03:51, 7 December 2006
Please remember one of Misplaced Pages non-negotiable policy no personal attacks. You first need to provide sources to support you view. I stand by my statement, the nation-state was formed in 1947. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

=Nichalp «Talk»= 13:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Himalayanashoka: You still haven't given us the citation. Again, the format is: author, year, title, publisher, and page number. I would add that, in general, high-school history text-books, like NCERT books, are not the most reliable sources for a Misplaced Pages Featured Article. College-level or research-level texts or journal articles are preferable. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, then where's the article for pre-Independence India. Also just remember, this article is entitled India, not Republic of India in a similar way to People's Republic of China as opposed to the China article. Nobleeagle 05:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
This is what I meant to say. When we say the India page it means right from zero to present. Should the France page be separated from the Fifth Republic (1960s), another one with Independence from Nazi Germany. All the facts presented in the Formation part of India page is linked in Misplaced Pages without requiring further references, and presented in a factually correct manner. In case we decide to change to the Formation part then we should change the pages of China, France, Germany too... Himalayanashoka 06:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
All I'm trying to say on this is that, please take the issue with the Govt of India. As long as it celebrates August 15 as the Independence day, you can't change that in this article. Thanks. --Ragib 06:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
This date of 15Aug47 was never changed in the Formation Infobox. But just as in the China page, France page, Germany page there is info related to formation, India must have a similar info, particularly with documented history going so far. CN, FR, DE were never geographically the same. Similarly India was also not the same. And it need not be repeated again that the whole culture has spawned from the Indus Valley Civilzn (ref Wkpd artcls).Himalayanashoka 06:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Himalayanashoka: Apparently "European POV" authors are not the only ones who use the word "colonial," here are two Indian authors:

"... part of the costs of transition to industrialism in western Europe were paid for by India, China, and the other colonial countries, whose economy was dominated by the European powers. It is obvious that there has been all along abundant material ..." p 300.
"Another feature of the (Natal Indian) Congress was service of Colonial-born educated Indians. The Colonial-born Indian Education Association was founded under the auspices of the Congress." p 151.

Still waiting for your citations ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler as I have told earlier these references are from a period when Eurocentric thoughts had been imposed on the various parts of the world. This is no longer the truth and is 'not original research'. In any case to satisfy Misplaced Pages criteria and to denigrate Eurocentric POV.
Gandhi: 'Hind Swaraj' and Other Writings (Cambridge Texts in Modern Politics) by Mohandas Gandhi, John Dunn, Geoffrey Hawthorn, and Mahatma Gandhi (Paperback - Jan 28, 1997) Page 26 "... the revolutionaries' view that physical expulsion of the British from India is the necessary and sufficient ..."
Once again I may say that the India page must follow a Indic view or it has to follow a completely neutral view. Eurocentric views imposed at a certain period in history and thus its documented records, are not acceptable now. The sentence in dicussion should read "India emerged as a modern....expelled all non-natives...a single nation". The non-natives include the UK(GB), PT, FR who were thrown out by both non-violence and force.Himalayanashoka 07:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The onus is on you to cite your sources. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is getting silly. Himalayanashoka a few points:

  • We have cited our sources. We are waiting for you to cite yours. Without that, and it seems you are still to do so despite repeated reminders, what you say will be your personal version, which we cannot accept. If you fail to do so, it will be considered to be trolling.
  • Please do not be condescending to other users. Support your statements with credible sources and keep the discussion going without resorting to calling editors disparaging names. Continuing to do so will get you blocked.
  • See the defination of colony: In politics and in history, a colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a geographically-distant state. -- how is this statement a POV?
  • The history section mentions key events that occured in the territory that makes up the modern nation-state.
  • The modern nation-state was formed in 1947. Please see the defination of nation-state vs nation.
  • 'Expelled' makes little sense. They weren't forcibly thrown out.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 08:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is important and not silly.
* Appropriate source has been cited (see reply to user:Fowler&fowler above). Its not about you personally have to accept. Nobody is cared about your personal opinion even if you have contributed to the site.
* It was not condescension. It was a befitting reply to wrong words such as "Period" "YES" etc, despite of whatsoever contributions one has made.
* As I have said earlier, "Colony" is a Eurocentric term and highly derogatory from an Asiatic or Indic view. One fails to see it because it has seeped deep. What you have given above is a dictionary meaning. Dictionary meanings are always neutral. It is how one interprets. In an FA Indic page one must write "Expulsion of non-natives" rather than the filthy sounding and derogatory "Colonised by..." The term "British" should also be properly denigrated in an Indic page without any POV.
* History: I once again say that it is the most recent history that's in one's mind. The less documented rich history must be emphasized. So the Formation part should be agreed upon with mutual consensus.
* You are correct about the term nation-state. I fully agree with you that the modern nation-state was formed in 1947.
* "Expelled" is a term perfect for an Indic page. It is to present an Asiatic/Indic view to others, when they read an Asiatic/Indic article. "Expelled" does not mean that one is thrown out forcibly. A diplomat also gets expelled, but it does not mean that he is beaten all the way to the airport.

Himalayanashoka 09:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Himalayanashoka:
Unfortunately, you didn't quote the complete sentence from the book Gandhi: Hind Swaraj and Other Writings completely. The book uses the word "expulsion" on two pages. Here are the full quotes:
  • p 28. Footnote: "Here Gandhi attacks the revolutionaries' view that physical expulsion of the British is the necessary and sufficient condition of swaraj."
  • p 73. "Editor: ... freeing others. Now you will have seen that it is not necessary for us to have as our goal the expulsion of the English. ..."
Note that in Hind Swaraj, Gandhi is the "Editor" and his interlocutor, the "Reader." Your citation in fact makes exactly the opposite point--that the physical expulsion of the British was not the sine qua non of independence.
Please provide a citation that supports your argument. If you think all writing from Gandhi's time is constrained by the "European POV," then provide your own modern untrammeled sources. But Misplaced Pages needs sources, reliable ones. Until that citation arrives, all your eloquence, as I have stressed before, will come to naught.
Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I very strongly suspect about your POVs. You seem to be bent towards searching and imposing only Eurocentric POVs to an Indic article to give it a negative and Euro-dominant image. It is also for you to search for Indic views, if you weant to polish up the article in a positive way. Gandhi's views at that time is definitely constrained by Eurocentric POV. I again emphasize that the switch of the terms "Expelled" and "Colonised" does not further need any reference and search for the usage of words in books, since an Asiatic/Indic page must represent an Asiatic/Indic view. An Indic article will not be written from Eurocentric view with highly derogatory sentences such as "Colonised by..." This is not about eloquence, but factual truths required in an Indic page. No references is needed to switch the two words mentioned. The sentence should now be changed to "India emerged...expelled all non-natives....a single nation-state". The term "non-natives" is to denigrate the word "British" without any POV. Himalayanashoka 10:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Himalayanashoka: OK, here are four sources. All Indian authors. All modern. All use words like "colonial" (which occurs on dozens of pages). All books are searchable on the websites. The last quote is lengthy because it makes an important point. Please read it carefully.

"The unprecedented expansion of the scope and scale of the colonial state followed the brutal repression of the rebellion of 1857-58 and the formal incorporation of colonial India into the British crown."
"Noting the successful transplantation of cinchona in the Nilgiris and looking forward to 'similar happy results ... other hill districts of Southern India,' Markham suggests, "Thus will the successful cultivation of the quinine-yielding chinchona-plants confer a great and lasting benefit upon the commerce of the whole world." Here the imperial scientist-explorer is the agent of civilization; through him nature's benefits are conferred upon mankind. The scientist speaks and acts on behalf of nature, and is willing to go to great lengths to defend it against the actions of those less scientifically savvy than himself. Thus we are to understand that the local skirmishes over property rights that mark the initial phase of the chinchona project are fought—although they might contravene the laws of less advanced nations—in the name of all humanity, including the natives of colonized nations, who, although not truly able to know and to nurture nature, are still worthy of receiving the fruits of civilization."

The last quote is important, because although it uses the word "colonized," it is clearly resorting to some form of irony. Merely using "colonized" does not mean that one supports or condones any acts committed in the name of the word. Similarly, the sentence beginning "Colonised by the British East India Company..." does not mean that Misplaced Pages thinks it was a good thing or bad thing, but simply that it happened.

Now it is your turn to provide some sources for why we should use words like that use the word "nonnative" generically for the British, and "expelled" for the Indian independence movement. I look forward to your citations.Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Fowler, Ragib, please don't feed the trolls. No point continuing with a pointless discussion. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have unprotected the page. Please remember the 3RR. =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't like terms like "non-native expulsion". First of all, I have never heard it used in any scholarly textbook or anywhere until HimalayanAshoka came up with it. Secondly, the term evokes connotations of xenophobia, which the Indian Independence struggle was most certainly not. It was a peaceful struggle largely involving civil disobedience to negotiate the Independence of India from the Raj."Non-native expulsion" sounds like something from a rally of Neo-Nazi skinheads. I do not like it. I am ambivalent about the "colonized" word issue. Hkelkar 11:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Tibet

Tibet, which is currenty in control by China, is fighting for its freedom and has never agreed to this takeover. It is relevant to say, that the Tibetan governement in exile considers its country to be its country. Such as India considers Kashmir to be apart of the Indian Union. If we want to respect that Kashmir is apart of India, then we have to respect the fact that Tibet deserves the same treatment. It does not matter that China is in control of Tibet; that does not make it right nor justfied by the power of the gun. So, I claim that India shares a border with Tibet as it should and it could even state it is a so called Autonomous region of China but in order for us not to be overwhelmed by the negative Chinese influence, we need to admit this onto the India page. India shares a border with Tibet as it shares a border with Afghanistan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jayjrn (talk • contribs) 05:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

We are differciating between a nation-state and nation when listing the countries tha border India. The ground situation is that the nation-state of PRC, which administers Tibet borders India. For his part, the Dalai Lama, the temporal and political head of Tibet has stated that he does not seek independence for Tibet =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Only Hong Kong and Macau can be separated as separate entities from the PRC. Other regions must follow the national Chinese boundary. Thus, India does not border Tibet, it borders the PRC. Also, Misplaced Pages is not a place for you to promote your personal agenda. And I don't know what world you live in, but the power of the gun and actual occupation is indeed the number one justification of territorial claims. Thus, Tibet's chance of independence from China is several thousand-fold less than Taiwan's. --Mamin27 23:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
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