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Comment

"Dutch language, spoken in Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, and Suriname." Speling12345 (talk) 3:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Help needed with an ancient dutch book

It's some months now I've been working on the XVII century "Euclides Danicus" book, by Gerog Mohr. For some reasons, I build a new PDF file, 40 text pages + 8 drawing pages. The problem is to do the OCR, since ancient Dutch uses some "strange" characters I don't know which unicode to replace with. Here are some examples:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aldoaldoz/38799385520/

  • The yellow background are related to a char similar to an F (beFtaende, eerFte) which in modern dutch should py replaced by an S;
  • pink background: "ct";
  • green background: the "long S", which is no more used in modern dutch.

I'd like to do the OCR the best way possible, so that the ancient language is preserved at best (actually I don't want to translate it into modern Dutch). So the questions are: which unicode chars should I use? Is there someone can help me, or can tell me someone to ask? Once ready, the file will be uploaded to wiki commons, both pdf and djvu. Thanks in advance! --Aldoaldoz (talk) 10:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

U+0283, this is suposed to work for the long s. You could also try Unicode 383. I hope it works! Falco iron (talk) 11:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Standard language: 3 genders

I am confused by the "two to three genders" in the lead. So there are neuter words which I don't think anyone is disputing. And while many historically feminine and masculine words can be considered "common" in the standard language (=speakers can chose whether these words are referred to as "hij/hem/zijn" (he/him/his) or "zij/ze/haar" (she/her/her)), not all words can. Het Groene Boekje has purely feminine (e.g., ) and purely masculine () words, which means that there are three genders in the standard language. Morgengave (talk) 09:24, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Dialect boundaries vs political border

In the article I read: "However, the national border has given way to dialect boundaries coinciding with a political border, because the traditional dialects are strongly influenced by the national standard varieties." "To give way" means: "to yield / collapse / be followed". I suppose the author did not mean the national border yielded to dialect boudndaries.

I suppose the author meant to express that (some) former dialect boundaries have given way to (a) new dialect boundary/ies which run(s) along the national boundary; this would make sense. Can the author confirm this?Redav (talk) 22:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I guess they meant, "has given rise".  --Lambiam 19:19, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Diminutives

A (more) helpful account is given on http://wrvzoektochten.be/onewebmedia/Verkleinwoordjes.htm, as well as on https://onzetaal.nl/taaladvies/verkleinvormen-algemene-regels/ (with at least one internal contradiction on 2018:0709, for "leerlingetje", and several confusing or debatable wordings).Redav (talk) 00:02, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Dialects

How this section is structured is confusing. What is the different between a "dialect group" and a "regional language?" And why is Limburgish listed in both sub-sections? More than that, the map in the Dialects section show Dutch Low Saxon and Limburgish listed as dialects. I realize that there is some debate over this, but from the perspective of the article on the Dutch language, to make this less confusing, what I would do is to simply list them all as "dialects" and then make note of on the items for which those particular dialects are also granted regional language status. To have two subsections and include one in both is confusing from an outsiders perspective in particular. --Criticalthinker (talk) 02:23, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Every regional language consists of a group of dialects. Some groups of dialects have been afforded the status of "regional language"; others have not been so lucky. How linguists group dialects together should, hopefully, be based on linguistic criteria and not be influenced by political expediency. But acquiring the status of "regional language" is a political process, and does not always result in the groupings that make the most linguistic sense. There is an unavoidable amount of arbitrariness and subjectivity in defining dialect boundaries and groupings, just as when partitioning the colour spectrum into main colours (red, orange, yellow, ...) or defining the concept of "earth tone".  --Lambiam 19:46, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm less interested in the why (which I understand) than the particular structure of the items in the article. I don't think we need seperate "dialect group" and "regional language" subsections in the "dialect" section. I'm proposing getting rid of the "regional language" subsection and simply making a note on the "dialect group" which of those has been designated regional languages. --Criticalthinker (talk) 00:22, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
I should clarify that what I'm taking issue with is Limburgerish being listed in both the dialect group and regional language subsections, which comes across as confusing. Despite what I said above, I'm not sure if there is an easy way to remedy this. From my personal view, it readily appears that Dutch Low Saxon is, while it has had major influence from Dutch, is in fact another language. But that isn't my call to make, here. --Criticalthinker (talk) 01:42, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps it has become less confusing after my recent edit.  --Lambiam 00:21, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, this is a bit better. So, Limburgish is clearly a Dutch dialect given regional language status in the Netherlands. And linguistically, Dutch Low Saxon is a whole other language (though influenced by Dutch on the Dutch side of the border) also recognized as a regional language in the Netherlands. --Criticalthinker (talk) 02:51, 30 September 2019 (UTC)


The classification on the second last page of the following page is quite comprehensive: https://www.academia.edu/3130916/De_analyse_van_taalvariatie_in_het_Nederlandse_dialectgebied_methoden_en_resultaten_op_basis_van_lexicon_en_uitspraak. However, it poses several questions. It does not include the German parts of Limburgish and South Guelderish. It has South Guelderish and Brabantian as Centraal zuidelijke dialecten.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0024384115000315 figures 8 and 9 as well as https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-dendrogram-derived-from-the-distance-matrix-based-on-unweighted-Manhattan-distance_fig2_2546927 also exist. https://benjamins.com/catalog/avt.22.17spr/fulltext/avt.22.17spr.pdf, figure 5, is a map about syntax.Sarcelles (talk) 20:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

The other issues concerning my first classification include, that it does not follow the Uerdingen and Benrath Lines, as well that it divides Limburgish. Sarcelles (talk) 12:13, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
There is also the question, whether tonality should be used as definition of Limburgish.Sarcelles (talk) 20:29, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
It uses the umbrella term Friesland, which can't be used for this article. Other statistically founded sources have to be taken into account for the purpose of classification, too.Sarcelles (talk) 12:16, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
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