Talk:Michael Collins (Irish leader)

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Okay folks - need to get consensus on these segments. I request that BrownHairedGirl please fully lock the article until we resolve this. And invite wider opinion. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:36, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

@Casliber: if you want the page protected, please ask at WP:RFPP. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:43, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Also, the page is under sanctions and the IP has just made two reverts to Ceoil's one revert...and you're the admin watching it..you gonna look at that then? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:45, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

80.111.164.98 you are already aware this page is under 1RR sanctions. Stop edit warring. Bastun 12:54, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Support Ceoil's edits in their entirety. Everything that he removed was unencyclopaedic. I do not believe that the IP is interested in improving the quality of the article. Scolaire (talk) 13:12, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Not surprisingly, 80.111.164.98 has been proven to be an evading editor. GoodDay (talk) 13:34, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Now blocked, so I don't think any further discussion is needed. Scolaire (talk) 13:39, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to reopen some of the discussion of Ceoil's edits. Quite a few of the changes are excellent and have updated the language to a more NPOV. A few though do seem to be unwarranted. Below is a summary of the edits I think should be discussed, the rest of his edits I support as well.

This is an edit that I believe both Ceoil and Scolaire have put forward, though I could be mistaken on the latter. It alters the meaning of the text here (Scolaire fully removes it) to imply that Collins himself is described at brainy, rather than that he "comes from a brainy family." This reference is sourced (though the source needs to be updated to page 106) and is warranted, imo, for a biographical entry. Family origin and characteristics cited by British intelligence officials would seem an apt addition to understanding the background and life of he individual.

I'm not sure why this was removed. "WTF" doesn't give us much to go on for rationale. Tim Pat Coogan uses the same language in his biography on page 6, so I'm not sure there is a warranted rationale for removing it. I'm open to a more detailed defense though.

This edit removes an entire paragraph with no accompanying explanation. That paragraph is also sourced and verified in TPC's biography as well. I'm curious as to the reason it was removed.

I'm not sure this is editorializing, it was an expressed policy of the IRB to drive out the RIC so it could establish its own institutions.

I initially thought this paragraph should be included, but reworded, but doing a bit more research I can't find where the source, Chrissy Osborne satisfies . She appears to be a podcaster without any formal training. Fully support this paragraph's removal.

How is this section specious? His plans definitely seem to have been put on place by the civil war, and it is relevant to the flow of the article as it detracts from efforts to nullify the border commission.

Agree with this initial removal as it was an uncited section. However, it is present in Coogan's work on pgs 372-377. Given that proper citation, this section should probably be restored.

I'm curious why you removed the section on plenipotentiaries?

The first section's removal seems unwarranted, it is a sourced description of his behavior during the negotiations. Fully support the second removal for the same reason as above, overly hero-worship language and likely not a valid source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Squatch347 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to comment on the content on its merits. Just having a citation is not enough to include something:

I've taken out the "brainy" sentence altogether. Regardless of whether it was him or his family, a comment by the British secret service (which secret service?) describing him/them as "brainy" is not sufficiently relevant.
Again, a claim that he came from an ancient clan, whether or not Tim Pat said it, is unencyclopaedic. You won't find it in any other biography of Collins (by the way, the edit summary was "pff", not "wtf").
Same again. His father's death-bed prophesies belong in hagiographies, not encyclopaedia articles.
"In turn, though, the retreat of the RIC drove the British towards more radical and violent responses" does sound like editorialising to me. I'm not bothered one way or another about the paragraph generally, though. Maybe a more straightforward text could be re-added (though a citation would be good).
Since you support removal, there's no need to comment.
There is no 6.
Yeah, " put Collins's plans for the north on hold; he was killed before he could pursue them any further" looks rather like a secondary school essay. Not needed.
A bit problematical, because you linked to the current article, not a diff. Did you mean this? If so, I would support some well-researched discussion of Collins's involvement or not in the assassination, but not the restoration of the paragraph as it was.
I would agree with adding back the "plenipotentiary" paragraph.
I can't see anything about his behaviour during the negotiations in this. It's in the "Personal life" section. Did you mean to link to something else?

Hope this helps. Scolaire (talk) 18:18, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Indeed it does, and that is very clear rational, and it seems I owe you something of an apology. Sorry, you evidently know the sources are far from taking the approach from that the IP was agitating from. I was taking it from all sides this morning, though thats not good enough. Ceoil (talk) 20:21, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

First, I am still not an expert in wikipedia linking, so I might well have screwed up some of the edit links, apologies for where that has caused some frustration.

1) The reference to his family being brainy as written in British intelligence files I thought was an interesting insight into both the level of British intelligence collection at the time and as a good foreshadowing of his importance and success later. The page reference is 106 in Coogan's work, and he has a primary source citation as well. Agree with not taking him as gospel, though I think in this case it might be worth inclusion given the original citation.

2) Ah you're right, the wtf comment was related to the first edit I was referencing, not the second. Great catch, thank you. I think the addition of the family information presents an excellent picture of the family's perception of themselves, and frames how Collins interprets his own place in Irish history as he is growing up. It ties in exceptionally well with the views others had of him while in London, his brash arrogance and willingness to overreact to any perceived slight. Though, if the concern is that we are turning an encyclopedic entry into a biography in that sense, I sympathize there. Perhaps a much, much shorter version of that paragraph (one sentence or so) leading into the next paragraph would be more appropriate?

3) Fair point, it also does seem out of place now that I read it within the updated context. Agreed.

4) The word "radical" certainly doesn't fit. The British escalation of violence in response to RIC failures should be easily supported. Perhaps something like, "In the early 20th century this permanently armed police force was, in effect, the principal representation of the British state in large parts of rural Munster and Connaught. It was a principle aim of republican forces to establish independent Irish institutions following the eviction of RIC elements in local regions. This aim was countered by more direct and violent British actions in an effort to retain control over these regions." I'll track down a better citation than TPC if this works. Unless that citation directly discusses alienation, the last part should probably go given both of your concerns.

7)I'm not sure I agree, if anything it could be expanded a bit to discuss the decrease in material and financial support flowing north and Collins (and the government in general) focused on internal matters. Without this tie in, the section on Northern Ireland doesn't coherently finish, it ends with volunteers coming south.

8)I did yes, sorry about that. I'd be fine putting it back in as is with an appropriate reference, but if both of you feel (and it seems that way) that it would be better expanded/edited with some additional references, I can take that on and get back to you hopefully soon.

9) Unless Ceoil has any objections, I'll add back in a few days.

10) The source discusses those attitudes in context of his activities during wartime and negotiations, I didn't add that elaboration in my question. Given that it is describing his interactions with others and personal traits, I think it is warranted in a biographical description of the man.

Thanks for the reply,

Squatch347 (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The best part Ceoil was that the initial post that prompted all the problems was based on a misunderstanding and error in my attempt to undo an edit made conflicting with his. Squatch347 (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

There are more ironies than that at play here Squatch347. Its *very* unfortunate that Scolaire was mistaken for the IP, and his credibility was called into question, thats on me. But am most glad to see the close eyes I was hoping for. Ceoil (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I've edited to address (4), (9) and (10). My views on the other points haven't changed. Let's see what other people have to say. Scolaire (talk) 16:05, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Good edits so far. Agreed on letting people digest a bit, I'll wait maybe a week or so and see if I can come up with language that addresses your concerns on the issues. Thanks. Squatch347 (talk) 18:53, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Agree with this approach also. For the record, the removal of dated sources, obviously closely paraphrased; the language seeped through, was a big factor behind my edits. Ceoil (talk) 10:33, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Death section removal of content and lack of citation

Check these series of edits by the same IP: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Michael_Collins_%28Irish_leader%29&type=revision&diff=803570227&oldid=802815825

The Death section was greatly modified without being properly cited - please restore this section back to what it previously was, and remove inflammatory 'conspiracy theory' type suggestions. If it's not cited, looks like it probably breaches rules against original research. Arfed (talk) 20:24, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with @Arfed on all counts. Additionally, the writing itself is clunky and needs to be refined. Squatch347 (talk) 17:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

You can't just throw the line out there that Denis "Sonny" O'Neill definitely killed Collins. That's completely unproven. It could have been many different people. Heshs Umpire (talk) 16:29, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Death section

I have made some changes to this section. Firstly the last sentence reading "Writers on the subject such as J. Feehan and S.M. Sigerson have called for a full forensic examination of Collins's remains in order to attempt to settle at least some of these controversies concerning his end". While some may point out this is one of the few sourced sentences in the section, I will counter by saying its inclusion at present makes no sense. The section does not detail any "controversies" which may need settling. My second change is to move the opening paragraph to the end of the section. I believe immediately introducing conspiracy theories (which for the record are not even mentioned, leaving the reader perplexed as to what they actually are) is inappropriate, and is best done after detailing what appear to be the undisputed facts of his death. 2A02:C7D:3CAF:D900:A15E:5B06:D036:6F58 (talk) 16:32, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree. --Red King (talk) 20:54, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed as well. Squatch347 (talk) 13:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Strongly agreed too Heshs Umpire (talk) 12:34, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Reverted photograph

The reasoning does not make sense. Did the reverted image not identify Collins? It did not obscure his face or body, and in fact it was sharper, higher in resolution, and had higher photographic quality. Most other language versions of Misplaced Pages use that photograph as well Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 10:03, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

S.M. Sigerson

What makes this person any kind of authority on the death of Michael Collins? Their book appears to be self-published thus failing WP:SPS, so I intend to remove it unless evidence of reliability can be provided. I note @Scolaire: was particularly scathing regarding this person at Talk:Michael Collins (Irish leader)/Archive 3#Killed. FDW777 (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

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