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    Yae4

    There is consensus here for an indefinite topic ban from climate change. Also noting that, as this is the user's first sanction, an appeal that recognizes the problem and commits to fixing it, combined with constructive editing elsewhere, should be granted. ~Awilley (talk) 23:09, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Yae4

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    JzG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Yae4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change#Standard discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 2020-03-28 Adding Forbes comment by Roger A. Pielke Jr., a climate change contrarian, for claims of "suppression" of a climate change contrarian - sourced, bizarrely, to a profile attacking Pielke in the "DeSmog blog".
    2. 2020-03-28 Forbes blog (non-RS, see WP:RSP) with extensive quote from Robert L. Bradley Jr. (a promoter of a free-market anti-interventionist position on climate change), promoting climate change denialist talking points.
    3. 2020-04-24T06:19:56 Reverts to include citations to primary material at climate change denialist group the Global Warming Policy Foundation.
    4. 2020-04-06T17:04 New article presenting climate change denialist talking points, e.g. extensive quote from musician Harold Ambler dismissing climate change as "the biggest whopper ever sold to the public in the history of humankind".
    5. 2020-03-30 adding invalid tags to Skeptical Science (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), reverted then again and again.
    6. 2020-04-02 Addition of synthesis serving to undermine the reputation of Climate Feedback (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by cherry-picking superficial criticisms from an assessment that was overwhelmingly entirely positive (see talk:Climate Feedback).
    7. (admin only(, adding references to https://principia-scientific.org/, a seriously fringe website, on now-deleted Mototaka Nakamura (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
    8. , initial creation of Mototaka Nakamura, seriously cites Cooley, Richie (2019-09-22). Climate Change and Bible Prophecy. Richie Cooley. ISBN 978-0-463-55559-0. as a primary source.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    In Yae4's view many articles have been "FUBAR'd by climate change alarmists". Climate change alarmist is a pejorative used to dismiss mainstream views on climate change (and "a particularly infantile smear considering what is at stake" according to that linked article).

    Holding a fringe POV is theoretically fine, Misplaced Pages does not require ideological groupthink, but his POV comes across in disruptive article edits and talk space activism promoting idiosyncratic and non-mainstream views in a contentious area at a time of heightened political tension, and that is not fine.

    I believe that a restriction from at least mainspace editing related to climate change is justified. Explaining reality-based policies such as WP:FRINGE to editors who reject the mainstream view is a source of tension and burnout, and, bluntly, wasted time. Guy (help!) 14:31, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    diff


    Discussion concerning Yae4

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Yae4

    1. Roger_A._Pielke_Jr. is expert on "policy education for scientists in areas such as climate change." At Noticeboard JzG/Guy: I don't know if it's reliable or not. At least it has the advantage of supporting the mainstream view., and kept/updated DeSmogBlog sources in articles. Prior Forbes blog source was reverted because "author has strong personal POV."
    2. Blog sources and attribution rules seem inconsistently applied. I've observed practices (#1), and sought guidance. Robert L. Bradley Jr., Phd "with distinction," and decades experience, is "author of several books on energy economics."
    3. was discussed at Judith Curry, where, there, was consensus. Climate Models for the Layman is essentially identical to (self-published) Climate Models for Lawyers on Curry's blog site, and presents her views.
    4. Harold_Ambler, author, musician, teacher (rower and surfer), got much notice, co-wrote/edited Ever True, history of Brown Crew (cited), wrote Don't Sell Your Coat, was controversially published on HuffPost, and got US Senate attention.
    5. Skeptical_Science has many self-published and blog sources, bias, noted long ago; my assessment.
    6. I wrote 41% of Climate Feedback, which demonstrates useful, lasting contributions. However, poor (Axios), non-attributed sources remain. "IFCN concludes its investigation into Science Feedback complaint" was removed, but several Poynter sources remain. NPOV should say they were certified, but all 3 annual IFCN/Poynter reviews had criticisms, and they were investigated; Conclusion: "the failure to clarify their role to readers, fell short of the standards required of IFCN signatories."
    7. /8. Mototaka Nakamura, ScD : impressive qualifications, decades climate modeling, noticed by numerous sources, some stronger, some weak; h-index 60% above widely cited blogger Dana Nuccitelli (13 versus 8).

    JzG/Guy's Climate change alarmist quote source is a 404 (and bad archive link). Details matter. Kerry_Emanuel starts the paragraph: Dividing the entire field of climate research into “believers,” “skeptics,” “deniers,” and so on is a particularly egregious tactic deployed by those who wish to discredit climate research. Science is not about belief, it is about evidence. Projections of climate change by the IPCC are deeply skeptical, and there is no attempt to hide the large uncertainty of climate forecasts. The possible outcomes, as far as we have been able to discern, range from benign to catastrophic.

    • If Hob Gadling may "turn over a new leaf" after civility issues, this enforcement seems out of proportion.
    • Definition unsure; however, Bishonen and El_C seem "involved." (history available)
    • @Awilley: Thank you for having a more balanced, flexible approach, as I also saw at Hob Gadling's civility dispute. Sorry in advance for what some may criticize as WP:SOAP. I don't know how to help except to say: (1) If my ability to pick and choose topics to edit is severely restricted, then my editing will be similarly reduced, for whatever time period. I volunteer to take a 1-3 month (warmth of summer) break from climate-related articles, and most of WP, to consider whatever specific suggestions for change I get here or on my Talk page.
    Collapsed comments 2-10 by Yae4

    (2) Editing productively in other less controversial topic areas of interest, as I have already done, is very different than editing in the climate area (except for several articles where JzG/Guy has followed) me. More during a topic ban would not demonstrate much, and feels like trying to extort more volunteer time as a penalty. The topic difference is not my understanding of wiki-rules, but may be not understanding why wiki-rules are applied so differently in the climate area, or why non-civil behavior is more tolerated from "non-fringe POV" editors there, or my lack of "belief" in "fringe" treatment of climate. (3) I am unimpressed and unconvinced by John Cook and Dana Nuccitelli et al 2013 study of studies, or similar approaches by others. On climate science and model predictions, I value stated opinions of one MIT (or Georgia Tech) PhD climate scientist more than 10-100 opinions inferred by historians, sociologists, web developer cartoonists, cognitive psychologists, politicians, or a master's degree environmentalist blogger with some publications (who do those studies of studies). I'm aware there was a WP list of more scientists who disagree, about 35% of participant editors disagreed with deletion, and Bishonen closed it, seeing "consensus" over a significant minority objection (i.e. <<97% agreement), and siding with (feeling strongly?) a particular view of general scientists vs. climate scientists. I'm aware of the contrasting catch-all "denier" category. (4) I'm aware non-scientist Al Gore promoted the "science is in" approach, and got rich (partly from that, partly other things). There are 4 Huff Post sources in "Climate Reality Project". There are 2 in Al_Gore. "Al Gore’s Stupendous Wealth..." is not used in either article, although the source covers both. Nor is this, nor this. Why is that? Is it a "fringe" view that money may motivate Al Gore? Are those unreliable sources? (5) I'm happy to "step back" or slow down. I already have. I've tried to engage constructively on talk pages. Talk:Climate_Feedback or Talk:Tobacco_industry_playbook shows the (worst) kind of "collaboration" that sometimes results. (6) The fact that JzG/Guy is stressed or something "at a time of heightened political tension" is not my problem, but I'm not unsympathetic to their predicament or their pain when typing. (7) Re: "disruptive article edits and talk space activism": I ask, did anyone act with the spirit of WP:DDE and post any diffs of problematic edits or explain what I did "wrong" on my Talk page? Did JzG/Guy say anything on my Talk page other than "this is normal paranoia. The idea that I'm somehow stalking this editor is laughable and entirely unsupported by evidence, but when people advocate unorthodox views on Misplaced Pages and can't accept that they are not going to get their way, they often feel they are being persecuted." (~15 days after I first edited a climate article)? Note: El_C also said I was being too aggressive (defending JzG/Guy). (8) My FUBAR list is similar to User:JzG#Shitty_sources at a glance, so why is mine a problem? (9) My authorship remains high at four climate articles discussed here: #1 (no surprise), #1 (sort of a surprise) still top 10 top 5. I'm happy with that. (10) Of the long list at WP:NOTHERE, what have I done? (a) General disruptive behavior, battleground, Little or no interest in working collaboratively? Or is it (b) Expressing unpopular opinions – even extremely unpopular opinions – in a non-disruptive manner? WP:NOTNOTHERE. If the (impartial) feedback here is (a), then please give me specific suggestions of what I should do differently; something more significant than don't use "bizarre" sources like DeSmogBlog (or a self-published religious book), even though JzG/Guy is OK with similar if it supports their view.

    -- Yae4 (talk) 09:00, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by PaleoNeonate

    I would also like to point at "Note the usual recruiting of huge anti-fans here" at the current Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Harold Ambler discussion. And to this related NPOVN thread: WP:NPOVN § Non-NPOV at Climate Feedback (and budding edit war, poor sources, and more). At the AfD, voters are disparate, as can be expected, especially that the discussion is actually about the subject's notability. As for "anti-fans", shouldn't Misplaced Pages simply reflect the scientific and academic consensus? The prevention of undue promotion in relation to climate-change denial is part of normal editor duties and not activism. I didn't have the time to dig for diffs yet, but have noticed slow edit wars on various articles. I might post some examples later. An eventual topic ban seems unevitable. —PaleoNeonate – 23:36, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

    This suggests that this may be a domain-specific problem That is also my impression and Yae4 demonstrated an interest in some Computer Science articles; I don't think that a site ban is necessary and it could prevent potentially useful contributions. —PaleoNeonate – 04:48, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

    JFG: You do not appear to realize that persistent civil POV pushing in relation to various articles, with the promotion of unreliable sources, is disruptive and wasting the community's precious time. The report is not about a content dispute. —PaleoNeonate – 08:45, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Jlevi

    The user does not tend to follow core editing policies on climate-related pages, operating in a manner that make it difficult to engage constructively. I will highlight some WP:RS and Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution problems that occurred over a long span of time. Note that these diffs occurred on WP:BLP pages.

    - diff from 21 January 2020 Non-RS sources restated on the talk page without any RS-related arguments after removal from a BLP entry (diff Jan 19).

    - diff from 23 January 2020 Unwillingness to discuss issues and focus on content.

    - diff from 23 January 2020 More ref-bombing without consideration for source quality.


    Similar behavior occurred in a recent AFD:

    - diff from 20 April 2020 Ref-bombing with demonstrated lack of understanding of WP:RS and WP:N guidelines. These sources were largely present in the article when Yae4 moved it into mainspace (article at that time).

    - diff from 20 April 2020 Unwillingness to 1) discuss further, or 2) to consolidate sources.

    - diff from 23 April 2020 Collapsing another editor's comments outside the WP:COLLAPSENO talkpage behavioral guideline. Edit: I reverted to Yae4's collapse under the good-faith assumption that they were correctly conducting their behavior, but a review of the relevant guideline makes clear that this wasn't the case. Thus, this provides one example of acting without knowledge or instinct for behavioral guidelines. Jlevi (talk) 17:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

    Please note that all the interactions above come from my personal interactions with the editor, so I am not an outside observer. However, I think I have provided a reasonable analysis of the diffs in questions, as well as of the lack of movement on these issues.

    On quick inspection, it seems like the user's handling of policy outside of the climate domain appears more accurate. This suggests that this may be a domain-specific problem, though I have not engaged with the user extensively outside of the climate domain and hesitate to speak about quality of edits in technology- and company-related articles. 15:49, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

    Edit: Added mainspace examples. Jlevi (talk) 23:41, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

    To be clear, I to a large extent take Springee's points. Yae4 brings a lot of enthusiasm, and that's worth supporting. If it were tempered with some judiciousness in the future, then all the better. I'm somewhat more bearish than Springee on the probability of reform, given that article deletions would probably result in reappraisal of one's actions for most (and Yae4 will soon have a third deletion due to lack of awareness of policy), but a permanent topic ban would probably be excessive. Jlevi (talk) 20:32, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Buffs

    If this person is such a problem, why have they not been blocked for any length of time? . It seems that this should have been done prior to WP:AE. DS already gives that authority. Shouldn't we try something else first? Buffs (talk) 18:34, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by PackMecEng

    El_C & Bishonen How can we be past warning if they have never been warned or sanctioned? PackMecEng (talk) 19:13, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

    @El C: Correct it is not required. That is not what I was saying though. Why go straight to a sanction when no warnings, sanctions, or issues have occurred before this point? Generally they get a chance to correct problematic behavior before a restriction. If this is something that has been going on this long I would expect to see something, anything in fact before this. PackMecEng (talk) 19:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

    Just feels wrong when an one side of a content dispute brings the other in to get sanctioned, especially given how weak the evidence is and general lack of disruption for the topic area. PackMecEng (talk) 20:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by JFG

    I don't see much more than disagreement about content here, and the accused editor has replied cogently to accusations. The matter could be settled by a reminder to tread lightly in a DS subject matter, and strictly adhere to RS sourcing. Sanctions such as a TBAN would look punitive rather than preventive at this time. — JFG 06:10, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Atsme

    Appears to be a case of a new editor needing a mentor rather than a t-ban or a block right out of the box. Lighten up - let's not run-off all of our newbie editors. Remove your dentures and gum 'em first, especially those who just need a little guidance. It's a learning process. If your ban hammer trigger finger itches, go fight some vandals...j/s. Talk 📧 18:25, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Springee

    Seems like a new editor who probably can contribute once they get the hang of things. A knock upside the head followed by some guidance, not removal from the island, is probably the correct remedy here.

    I would start with telling Yae4 the fact that you are here and admins are discussing some form of possible sanctions is a good sign that you dune messed up. But that doesn't nessicarily mean you are a lost cause or can't be fixed. Here are some generally true things that many new editors miss. 1. Not everyone who disagrees with you or reverts your edits s a POV pusher. When you are new, much like a teen you know you are right and those who object are cleraly wrong. That is often not the case. Often it's because you aren't following accepted practices that often aren't obvious to new editors. Things like getting consensus before making changes when edits have been rejected, asking for help if you are certain you are right but, dang it, editors just arnen't hearing you. Sometimes it's good to look back at article histories and see how/why people were able to get consensus for changes. Sometimes it's understanding that you just aren't going to succeed if its you vs several editors. Anyway, when new and enthusiastic it's easy to cross invisible lines then end up here. 2. Pay attention to the diffs above. Try to understand why they are being used as evidence against you. At the same time, for anyone who posed a diff, please be willing to explain why it's wrong so Yae4 will have the knowledge needed to avoid similar mistakes in the future. As for the appropriate "knock", perhaps a warning or perhaps a short term tban (say 1 month). As this is the first official anything I would suggest something other than an indef. Give the editor some rope. Hopefully they will use it to build a bridge not a noose. Springee (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

    @Awilley, Bishonen, and RexxS:, could I offer an alternative suggestion. Several times I've suggested what I have called a soft-indef tban. The idea is that the editor is tbanned until they can show they understand the issue. The idea is that as soon as the editor understands what they did wrong and stops doing those things, the tban becomes punative rather than protection. So in a case like this where there is no prior warning history the tban is indef but also understood that the bar to lift it is light. So they can appeal almost right away (I would suggest waiting at least a week) and if they can explain what bad behaviors they will avoid in the future it gets lifted. The worst case scenario is the ban is put back in place. The best case is that we didn't needlessly tban an editor who was going to make a positive contribution to Misplaced Pages. Springee (talk) 16:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by OID

    To those above saying 'Oh they are a new editor'. Check the editing history, despite only starting in August 2019, they are by no means anything close to what a new editor would be.

    Quack Quack. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:42, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Yae4

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I could support a topic ban. I think the documentation establishes that as an appropriate remedy. At the very least, there needs to be a logged warning alongside a commitment to do better. But we may be past that point now. El_C 16:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
    • PackMecEng, this is a volunteer project, sometimes things slip through the cracks. There is always the prospect of a successful appeal in a while, so that's where I'm still leaning. It doesn't appear likely that Yae4 is able to edit in this topic area without disruption. That is a fact. El_C 20:03, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
    • I was already following Yae4's tendentious editing with growing concern, and I find JzG's collection of diffs and links above convincing. The user only recently changed a fire-breathing section header on their userpage from "Hall of Shame (or Articles FUBAR'd by climate change alarmists)" (quoted by JzG above) to the blander "Hall of Shame (or articles not consistent with "reliable" source coverage)". Support a topic ban from climate change broadly construed. I do think we are past the point of warnings. Bishonen | tålk 16:54, 25 April 2020 (UTC).
    • @Yae4: without prejudice to your position, you appear to be at almost twice your allowed word limit. Would you be kind enough to trim back to no more than 500 words, please? --RexxS (talk) 18:45, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
    • @Yae4: I don't see any problem with the four articles you mention, even if you were under a climate change topic ban. It would be climate change that is the defining issue, not the environment in any shape or form. Black Kite (talk) 19:01, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
    • Having reviewed the request, I'm minded to issue a 12 month topic ban from making any edit on any page related to the climate change topic, broadly construed. Unless opinion here opposes that within the next 24 hours, I'll enact the ban. --RexxS (talk) 20:59, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
      • Well, I like that, RexxS, except for one thing: I don't favour a situation where a user can simply stop editing until the ban from the topic closest to their heart has expired, and then start on the same topic again, having in the meantime learned nothing about editing Misplaced Pages. What I like is indefinite T-bans, with encouragement to edit other topics as well as other Wikimedia projects, and then appeal the ban, perhaps after six months — having hopefully learned lots about our principles, policies, and customs. If they can point to constructive editing in those other areas, the appeal is very likely to be granted. Mind you, I won't exactly object to your proposal. I'm just very fond of the "learning while topic banned" principle. Bishonen | tålk 21:21, 28 April 2020 (UTC).
        • You've convinced me, 'Shonen. An indefinite topic ban isn't necessarily forever, and an appeal after six months seems very reasonable. If you want to do the paperwork before I get around to it, please do. --RexxS (talk) 22:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
    • @RexxS: @Bishonen:, I spent some time looking at this today and I'm a bit uncomfortable with an indefinite topic ban as the first resort. I dug into the user's edit history a bit and I can see that Yae4 has a lot of energy but that energy doesn't always seem to be directed at building an encyclopedia. (There's certainly a battleground approach and I suspect some WP:RGW going on.) It would be nice if that energy could be redirected, which is why I do support a topic ban. What would you think about doing a 6-month topic ban with a warning that returning to pushing fringe narratives after the ban expires will result in the topic ban being reinstated as indefinite? ~Awilley (talk) 15:18, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
      • @Awilley: I could have some sympathy if I hadn't seen this morning's edit by Yae4. Did you see that? There's no appreciation of what the complaints against them are. I think I prefer putting the onus on Yae4 to demonstrate good editing and appeal a ban in six months, rather than someone else having to demonstrate further misconduct after Yae4 just sits it out. --RexxS (talk) 15:37, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
    @RexxS: I had seen the userpage, not the edit. (I just had to look up FUBAR.) That was part of what convinced me of the Battleground mentality. I don't typically expect a user to appreciate the complaints against them while they are in the process of being topic-banned. My hope is that they will come to appreciate them in time. If not, it will be less time-consuming for you, me, Bishonen, El_C, or any single admin to reinstate the topic ban than it would for us to go through an appeal here. ~Awilley (talk) 16:24, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
    I'm also open to the suggestion by Springee. Maybe the easiest way to do that would be to stipulate that the ban can be lifted by any single admin (as opposed to going through the whole process here) when that admin is satisfied that Yae understands the problem and is willing to remedy it. ~Awilley (talk) 17:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
    @Awilley: I draw the opposite conclusion: someone editing in exactly the manner complained of, while facing the prospect of a topic ban, seems even less likely to me to come to appreciate what is required after the event.
    The process for appeal is laid down at WP:ACDS #Appeals by sanctioned editors. The first port of call suggested is the admin who imposed the sanction, so that whenever the appeal is straightforward, it can be accepted without unnecessary fuss (this already is a "tban lite"). Therefore, if an appeal is heard at AE, or at AN, or at ARCA, it means that the enforcing administrator has either not been consulted or opposes it. In either case, you're not looking at a straightforward appeal and it is not obvious that the sanctioned editor has demonstrated the good editing expected for the topic ban to be lifted.
    With all due respect to Springee, they don't have to make the difficult decisions, nor clean up the consequences of not getting them right. The idea of any admin being able to lift an AE sanction cuts across the setup of AE, where the judgement of the enforcing administrator is paramount. I would not be happy to see an AE action – especially one imposed after consultation and consensus at AE – simply being overturned by another admin without "the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator".
    The result of allowing a topic-banned editor back to editing in the affected area without being reasonably certain that they will not cause problems again, will be more disruption to the encyclopedia and another debate here to re-impose sanctions. I prefer some means of being reasonably certain.
    Nevertheless, as I don't see any prospect of consensus for my proposal made yesterday, I'll withdraw the offer and await other solutions. --RexxS (talk) 19:04, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
    @RexxS: I don't know of any administrator who would unilaterally overturn the sanction without looking deep enough to be "reasonably certain" that the problem is resolved. (Do you?) Another idea if you don't object: I'd be happy to place an indef topic ban myself and then handle the appeal (if it comes) on my own too. If that doesn't work then I won't stand in the way of the indef. ~Awilley (talk) 23:10, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
    @Awilley: I don't know of any administrator who could unilaterally overturn any AE sanction placed by another admin without being de-sysopped – no matter how deeply they had looked. You can take any reasonable AE action you choose, of course; that's the whole point of how AE works. But you would do so in the knowledge that I had concerns over the lack of any indication of the time you expected Yae4 to observe the topic ban. I can't speak for Bishonen, but her comment to me above seems indicative of a similar position. --RexxS (talk) 23:24, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
    Yes, I agree with RexxS. Usually people are on their best behaviour when their behaviour is being discussed on a noticeboard, as opposed to cocking a snook at the discussion, as here. Yae4 restored his belligerent header "FUBAR'd by climate alarmists" to his page just a couple of hours after RexxS's original topic ban proposal above. That's a poor look. I don't know what is in Yae4's head, but it certainly could be that they really want this attack on their opponents on their page and realise they won't be able to put it there once the topic ban is in force. "Unpromising" would be a weak word for that.
    The difference between you, AW, placing an indefinite ban on your own + handling an appeal on your own, and RexxS doing it on behalf of AE, seems rather finespun, since Yae4 would in any case be encouraged to go to the "placing" admin first with an appeal. The differences would be a) it sounds from the way you put it like your verdict on that appeal would be final, whereas RexxS's could be appealed further to the admins or the community, at AE or AN. And b) an appeal to you could be made quickly, whereas one to RexxS + AN/AE would have little chance before six months had passed. Which of the differences is it that makes you prefer your own suggestion, or is it both? I'm not sure I believe in a), btw — surely if an admin declines to lift a sanction, it can always be appealed to the community? Bishonen | tålk 03:33, 30 April 2020 (UTC).
    Bish, a) doesn't make sense to me at all, so closer to b) I think, but without any arbitrary timeframe. Could be a month, could be 6 months, could be a year, could be never. The idea was a simple way to implement Speingee's "lite" suggestion by allowing the unban to happen at a lower level (like a regular unblock) instead of going through the AE process. Nothing special about me; you or Rex or anybody could do it. I just volunteered because I had brought it up. Anyway it looks like the consensus here is for indef, and I won't stand in the way of that. ~Awilley (talk) 05:21, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

    Eternal Father

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Eternal Father

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    JzG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 09:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Eternal Father (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff) :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 2020-04-28 cites a Fox News opinion piece in support of tendentious content on Michael Flynn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), reverted by NorthBySouthBaranof
    2. 2020-04-28 introduces negative BLP content to Joe Biden sexual assault allegation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), reverted by Wikieditor19920
    3. 2020-04-28 Editoriliaising at Mike Cernovich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), rverted by Grayfell
    4. 2020-04-24 Unsourced promotion of Mike Cernovich, reverted by JzG
    5. 2020-04-20 WP:UNDUE promotin of Mike Cernovich at Jeffrey Epstein, reverted by Calton
    6. 2020-04-19 tendentious addiution of Mike Cernovichg at Investigative journalism, reverted by JzG (n.b: there is consensus at talk:Mike Cernovich that he is not a journalist, and he admits he only calls himself one to trigger people).
    7. 2020-04-18 Promotion of Mike Cernovich at Roger Stone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), reverted by Grayfell; reinserted and reverted by Calton; reinserted and reverted again by Calton; reinserted and reverted by Muboshgu

    There are plenty more where those came from.

    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. Date Explanation
    2. Date Explanation
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above (diff).
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Eternal Father came to my notice as a result of promtional editing of Mike Cernovich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), where he argued (unsuccessfully) to classify Cernovich as a journalist, based on WP:SYN (see my analysis of the propoosed sources at permalink). He has since then received warnings and advice from many experienced Wikipedians including Calton, Doug Weller, Muboshgu and MelanieN. Bluntly, I don't think he's getting it.

    Case in point: Draft:Hoaxed (2019 Film) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) was declined on 15 April and 19 April, by different reviewers, but Eternal Father created it by copy-paste into mainspace anyway at Hoaxed (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), leading to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hoaxed with attendant canvassing (e.g. ).

    It seems clear that Eternal Father is a fan of Mike Cernovich's work, which is a red flag in itself given that Cernovich is pretty much universally described as a right-wing provocateur or troll. He's also a fan of Project Veritas. This likely explains the recurrent problem of failure to understand what constitutes reliable sourcing on Misplaced Pages, as exemplified in the Hoaxed article, and what constitutes OR/SYN, per the Cernovich article.

    In order to reduce drama, I think Eternal Father should have a 12 month topic ban from AP2, to give him time to learn Misplaced Pages's sourcing and content policies in areas less prone to strife. Guy (help!) 09:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

    • DGG A narrower ban would be fine by me but should probably include O'Keefe / Project Veritas and Jack Posobiec as well, since those are also a focus. I agree that the principal problem as seen to date is centred on Cernovich but I read it as right-wing faux journalists (not disputing your underlying point that this is much narrower than the entirety of US politics and, implicitly, that excessively broad sanctions are to be avoided). Guy (help!) 16:08, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Eternal Father

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Wikieditor19920

    I definitely had a big problem with this user's addition at the Joe Biden article. It strings together information to suggest guilt in a way that sources do not explicitly do, and some sources have taken active efforts to avoid, namely conflating the Biden inappropriate touching with the sexual assault allegation. Whether this on its own warrants a ban, I don't know. I've seen a lot of concerning behavior at Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden and I doubt all of it will be sanctioned. I don't think that revert on its own warrants a ban rather than a warning. However, if it's part of an overall pattern of POV editing as JzG suggests, a ban might be appropriate. Will leave that for others to decide.

    @Eternal Father: WP:SYNTH. The content you added is in a reliable source, but presented to imply a conclusion not stated by the source. And please place your replies in the appropriate section: yours. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 05:58, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    (Edit) I've moved EF's reply to his section, since he chose to reply directly under my statement. This is after I asked him to do so himself here and on his talk page. This user does not follow rules even when asked to do so. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Eternal Father

    Note: more information can be found on the talk pages of those articles Several users have consistently reverted edits, a pattern which may indicate political bias on their part, if not for assumed good faith. None of the edits have been found to be factually untrue and fall under subjective and matters of opinion, like how reliable sources, like Bloomberg and Fox News consider Cernovich to be a journalist, it seems multiple editors "oppose" this because they don't like his work. From my perspective, simply adding basic facts (backed by RS) is considered "promotion" by those that simply don't like Cernovich or other figures. As for BRD, I've seen plenty of B (bold), R (revisions), but not, however, much discussion on the talk pages by those that have make the revisions.

    Why do the articles on Steve Bannon and Sean Spicer get to include an infobox module of their military record, but not Cernovich or Posobiec (whose article calls him an "internet troll" and has multiple instances of neutrality violations)? That doesn't make much sense to me.

    The Mike Cernovich article, along with others, does not currently have a neutral point of view. He filed several motions, which are public record and have been substantially reported on. To deny this is to deny fact, which is against the spirit of Misplaced Pages.

    1. The Michael Flynn source may include opinion, but the supplemental court filing is fact, and the statement from his attorney indicated that exculpatory evidence ("Brady Disclosure") was produced. Once those documents are made available to the public, this will be expounded upon further.

    2. The same content is in the main Joe Biden article, and should be in the allegation article, as his other instances of confirmed inappropriate behaviour are relevant.

    3. A simple analysis of the diff logs will show that JzG was the one who first "editorialized" the Seder section of the Cernovich article, under the deceptive guise of "removing unreliable sources".


    Original: "On November 28, 2017, Cernovich published a post on that resurfaced a deleted tweet progressive talk radio host Sam Seder wrote in 2009 joking about convicted statutory rapist and fugitive film director Roman Polanski. The tweet read,"


    JzG: "Cernovich promted a conservative attack on Sam Seder"


    4. Cernovich has been considered part of the IDW.,but again, that is a subjective matter of opinion, and it seems that Misplaced Pages is dependent upon the press to decide. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/opinion/intellectual-dark-web.html


    5. There were only 3 parties to the motion: Alan Dershowitz, and then Mike Cernovich filed along to that motion, and then the Miami Herald. So "other media" doesn't make sense in that context.


    6. I believe the accuser is referring to the addition of investigative journalist and Project Veritas Chairman, James O'Keefe (not Cernovich), to the list of notable investigative reporters, to which I see no issue.


    7. Allegations of jury bias in a Federal case are a serious matter, especially given the publicity that it received. Cernovich did, in fact, file a motion to unseal the jury questionnaires., which is a relevant and notable detail of the Roger Stone Trial.

    Overall, this seems to be a matter of the accuser's narrative, not facts, as those have not been disputed. Eternal Father (talk) 10:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

    References

    1. O'Connor, Lydia (December 5, 2017). "MSNBC Gives In To Disingenuous Right-Wing Smear, Fires Sam Seder". Huffington Post. Oath Inc. Retrieved December 10, 2017.
    2. "MSNBC to Cut Ties With Sam Seder After Roman Polanski Rape Joke (Exclusive)". TheWrap. 2017-12-04. Retrieved 2017-12-05.

    user:wikieditor19920 See statement below. The content in the Joe Biden Allegation article is also in the main Joe Biden article. Why have you not challenged or removed it from there as well? Eternal Father (talk) 01:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Buffs

    Am I the only one seeing a pattern of issues being brought to WP:AE by JzG that a) are at least partly frivolous in nature b) should simply be handled by Admins via DS (if warranted) and c) seem to be targeting conservatives? The first piece of evidence seems to be that he added a sourced addition to an article. Buffs (talk) 13:54, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    @NorthBySouthBaranof: I get it. You don't like conservative opinions. He's hardly a conspiracist (certainly not a "noted" one). He certainly is pro-Trump. But regardless of that, it was a piece published by a reliable source of information. If you find something in it inaccurate, that's ok! Point it out and we can talk about it, but you cannot dismiss it just because he's conservative or has made some inaccurate statements in the past. Buffs (talk) 17:41, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
    Labeling dissenting opinions of someone as a "conspiracy theorist" + looking at his previous contributions...I'm pretty confident my assessment is spot on. As for reviewing our core policies, perhaps you would be so kind as to reduce the vague and condescending remarks and specify what policy you're referring to; it seems rather pointless to guess. Buffs (talk) 16:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
    Yep...my opinion of your assessment definitely stands, NorthBySouthBaranof. Buffs (talk) 19:04, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

    Buffs, if you think that an opinion column written by a noted conspiracy theorist is ever a usable source for anything other than the columnist's attributed opinion, you may wish to review WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:DUE. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    Buffs I'm not sure what you want me to call someone who peddles false, misleading, and unsubstantiated claims about Hillary Clinton, "deep state collaborators," and the Russia investigation; describes Robert Mueller as "illegitimate and corrupt"; and literally changes his mind about whether grand juries are good or bad overnight depending on whether the grand jury is investigating Hillary or Trump. You are experienced enough to know that we have higher standards for sourcing than that. An opinion column written by a partisan columnist clearly and indisputably fails WP:V for any other purpose than sourcing the attributed opinion of the columnist. Never facts. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:55, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Beyond My Ken

    Buffs, once you finish reviewing those core policies, you might want to read NorthBySouthBaranof's comment again, since nowhere there does NbSB say anything even close to "I don't like conservative opinions," or even imply it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    I agree with Doug Weller than an AP ban seems like a better solution than a single-subject ban. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Rusf10

    Another frivolous filing by the biased administrator JZG. I don't see anything more than a content dispute here. If you want to know how out of mainstream JZG's views are, just read his essay User:JzG/Politics. He describes the Democratic Party as "a centre-right party". Sure, I've heard people describe it as center-left or even centrist, but center-right is ridiculous, and it must mean he views Republicans (or anyone that would usually be considered conservative in the United States) as far-right. But he doesn't stop there he goes a step further by accusing the Republican party of voter fraud (isn't that a conspiracy theory???) and it compares to the Conservative Party which is run by "white nationalists" and "people who want to go back to the 1950s, when it was fine to be racist". Someone with extremist views like this should at the very least not have any administrative duties in the area of politics.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:51, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    Result concerning Eternal Father

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • It would seem sufficient to block his editing the Cernowitz article, and from inserting his name elsewhere in Misplaced Pages . That's the principal complaint. DGG ( talk ) 15:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
    • I presume you mean a topic ban from anything regarding Mike Cernovich anywhere on the project. I'd certainly support that. Doug Weller talk 17:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
    • I agree. The only question is whether the topic ban should be broadened to include O'Keefe / Project Veritas and Jack Posobiec as Guy suggests. I only see diff 6 as mentioning O'Keefe, but it may be worth asking if there is further evidence available? --RexxS (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
    • Although looking again at his edits and the above, I think if he's not banned from AP he'll be brought back here again. Doug Weller talk 18:22, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    Janj9088

    Topic ban from EE for one year, broadly construed. Further misconduct, including but not limited to aspersions, will be met with more severe sanctions — probably an indefinite block. I'll note for the benefit of Janj9088, that WP:SPI is the only venue to make claims of socking, anywhere else it is a personal attack. El_C 20:27, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
    Update: Indeffed as normal admin action. El_C 21:16, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Janj9088

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    MyMoloboaccount (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Janj9088 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
     :
    • You must not make more than one revert per 24 hours to this article.
    • You must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of this article.
    • You are required to abide by a civility restriction
    • Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance

    The above restrictions are clearly visible when you try to edit the article in question.

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Revision as of 03:03, 28 April 2020 Uses bunch of non-scholarly sources such as Pch24.pl, and website www.wehrmacht-polacy.pl
    2. Latest revision as of 11:29, 28 April 2020 reverts with statement Are you afraid of historical truth? What's wrong here? This violates both You must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of this article and Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers.
    3. Revision as of 08:52, 28 April 2020 quickly created sockpuppet account used to revert, with comment Undid revision 953621738 by Piotrus (talk) great sources!
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Anyone editing the page is alerted about discretionary sanctions, there is a huge wall of text that opens up stating You must not make more than one revert per 24 hours to this article. You must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of this article. You are required to abide by a civility restriction Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans, and are subject to discretionary sanctions while editing this page. An administrator has applied the restriction above to this page. This is due to an arbitration decision which authorised discretionary sanctions for edits and pages relating to Eastern Europe or the Balkans. If you breach the restriction on this page, you may be blocked or otherwise sanctioned. Please edit carefully. Discretionary sanctions have been used by an administrator to place restrictions on all edits to this page. Discretionary sanctions can also be used against individual editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any Misplaced Pages policy and editorial norm. Before you make any more edits to pages in this topic area, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system and the applicable arbitration decision.

    Also worrying is the fact that immediately another account was created to reinsert the edits

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Janj9088

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Janj9088

    (user is blocked for 31h for sockpuppetry)

    Statement by Piotrus

    Setting aside the fact that the user reported here is in violation of discretionary sanctions visible on article's talk page and in the edit mode but also in violation of the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations I also find it very suspicious that this account Fireslow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was created, first to revert at the affected article, then apparently to stalk my edits. I think some quick blocks are in order as I think it is apparent that Fireslow is a sock that is not here to build encyclopedia, but to create mischief. If there is a CU around they could check if there is an obvious connection to the other account, but it is also possible it is a different troll who has been infesting this topic area recently and is just playing around. Hopefully when I wake up tomorrow this will be dealt with with a semi on article and a block on the obvious troll sock accounts... here's hoping. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:09, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Buffs

    Why are we even here? Cannot someone apply WP:DS? Likewise, I'm loathed to enact a block of someone while they are unable to respond. Buffs (talk) 14:02, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by Kyohyi

    Procedural comment only: Awareness requirements as specified on WP: AC/DS were not met prior to this filing. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Janj9088

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • This seems unambiguous. POV-pushing, aggressive edits and edit summaries, and sock-puppetry. That sounds like time for a siteban. Guy (help!) 15:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
      Pace RexxS, I formally propose a one year AE block which any uninvolved administrator is free to extend to a CBAN of whatever duration, after discussion at AN or ANI. Guy (help!) 22:18, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
    • I agree with Guy that it looks pretty unambiguous. However AE actions are limited to "revert and move restrictions, interaction bans, topic bans, and blocks of up to one year", and "enforcing administrators are not authorised to issue site bans" (WP:ACDS #Sanctions). We need to use WP:AN for site bans. Any uninvolved admin could issue an indefinite block on the evidence, but it wouldn't be an AE action. --RexxS (talk) 18:06, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

    PackMecEng

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning PackMecEng

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    PackMecEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

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    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBAP2
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 1 May Makes defamatory claims about Peter Strzok, a living person, which are poorly sourced or entirely unsourced.
    2. 1 May Abuses rollback to Reverts my redaction of those statements and a warning that BLP applies to all spaces on the encyclopedia.
    3. 1 May Reinserts the unsupported, unsourced defamatory statement with a threat - "Yeah, don't touch my post again."
    4. 1 May Once again reinserts unsupported, unsourced defamatory statement after being warned.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, here.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    PackMecEng made a talkpage post on Talk:Peter Strzok which made several unsourced or poorly-sourced defamatory claims about the article subject. Their claims included misconduct, lying, or deception - sourced to opinion columns and NewsMax articles, or in some cases entirely unsourced whatsoever. In this edit, I redacted those claims and warned PackMecEng that BLP applies to all spaces in the encyclopedia. In response, PackMecEng abused rollback to undo my redaction and warning. They then repeated the unsourced statement again after I redacted it again. I request that rollback be removed from PackMecEng and that they be warned that BLP applies in all spaces. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    Specifically, PackMecEng wrote The Hill reporting notes from director of counterintelligence on what Strzok said: What's our goal? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?" However, the cited source nowhere says the word Strzok and thus obviously does not say that Strzok said that. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    Given this user's continuing inability to understand how BLP requires us to use quality sources and not make unsupported defamatory claims about people, I request that PackMecEng be topic-banned. They clearly are not able to edit in this topic space with the due consideration for facts and sensitivity required when dealing with living people.

    The issue here is one common to political articles - we have an editor who races to the biography of a living person related to a controversy in order to stuff it full of dubious, unsupported, and outright false claims based upon poor partisan sources and misrepresentation of sources. A two-minute reading of The Hill article would have demonstrated to PackMecEng that the source did not, indeed, say what they claimed it said. However, instead of taking that time to investigate and make sure that what they said about a living person was correct - they simply hit the rollback button, because how dare anyone dispute their personal perception and pre-planned condemnation of Strzok which so preoccupied him as to claim that a source which never mentioned the words Peter Strzok supported a claim that Peter Strzok said something. They apparently aren't capable of taking their blinders off and editing with a fair mind and a sensitive eye in this topicspace, so they shouldn't be allowed to edit it anymore. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    @Swarm: Which Hill piece attributes the quote to Strzok? Not the one linked. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:47, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
    @Swarm: If you're referring to this opinion column in The Hill, it also does not say that Strzok said those words.All this led to a meeting at the highest levels of the FBI which included the director and the FBI’s head of counterintelligence, who took copious notes. It is in these notes that he reflected the discussion that took place about Flynn, writing: “Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute or get him fired.” That, in fact, says that Strzok did not say those words. Strzok was not the FBI's head of counterintelligence. He was a high-ranking official in that division, but he was not the head of CI. That's besides the fact that opinion columns are obviously not acceptable reliable sources for claims of fact about other people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:51, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
    @NorthBySouthBaranof: You're 100% right. Struck accordingly. Strzok was a Chief of Counterespionage and a Deputy Director of Counterintelligence, it seems I conflated the two. ~Swarm~ 21:59, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
    I have struck the statement about rollback - I will take on good faith that it was inadvertent. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    Notified here


    Discussion concerning PackMecEng

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by PackMecEng

    The rollback was actually a miss click, meant to hit undo but you reverted before I could. Also what threat? PackMecEng (talk) 21:25, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    The altering interview notes is from here, specifically Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernie Kerik reacted strongly on Thursday to the news FBI officials to altered a 302 report and reopened the case when the initial analysis indicated no crime had been committed. PackMecEng (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    Related to that this was a talk page discussion warning, ironically, that the article might get a bunch of POV pushers and bad sources and to keep an eye out for such things. I noted below that here, it was not a specific proposal for the article. PackMecEng (talk) 22:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning PackMecEng

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • On the one hand, PME is literally discussing sources, and it may just be a good faith difference in interpretation of what the sources are saying. On the other hand, I can see where the redactions are coming from, because it's not obvious to me where the sources correspond with PME's statements. I could probably give PME a pass on the quotation, because the Hill piece does attribute the quote to Strzok. Sources either say that the note was written by the Director of Counterintelligence or that the author was unknown. I also don't see where the sources mention Strzok "Altering interview notes and trying to purposly get Flynn fired." Even assuming Strzok wrote the note, which no source claims, it would still not substantiate the claim in the slightest. PackMecEng, can you clarify how you believe that your statements are drawn from reliable sources, and not unsubstantiated accusation? As an aside, I wouldn't even broach the topic of revoking Rollback over a single misuse, intentional or not. As PME says it was unintentional, we can probably let that slide. ~Swarm~ 21:47, 1 May 2020 (UTC)