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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Jordanian disengagement from the West Bank was copied or moved into Jordanian annexation of the West Bank with this edit on 22:04, 15 October 2018. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Recognition by USSR

West Bank as part of Jordan is designated in all soviet maps and all soviet reference books. See this map of 1980 for example: -- Nicolay Sidorov — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicolay Sidorov (talk • contribs) 17:55, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

“Annexation” or “occupation”

This is referred to as an annexation while the Israeli annexation of the Golan is referred to as an “occupation” Both offer full citizenship, both faced limited recognition internationally (both even were recognized by one member of the UN Security Council), and both faced push back against sovereignty from parts of their respective populations (however, both were not conquered from a previous sovereign, as the West Bank had no sovereign while Golan did). I propose the name of this article changed to “occupation” or the Israeli occupation of the Golan henceforth be referred to as an “annexation” given the similarities between the situations. Zarcademan123456 (talk) 20:02, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 4 March 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move to any other specific title, after extended time for discussion. BD2412 T 03:42, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Jordanian annexation of the West Bank → Jordanian occupation of the West Bank – This is referred to as an annexation while the Israeli annexation of the Golan is referred to as an “occupation”. Both offer full citizenship, both faced limited recognition internationally (both even were recognized by one member of the UN Security Council), and both faced push back against sovereignty from parts of their respective populations (however, both were not conquered from a previous sovereign, as the West Bank had no sovereign while Golan did; if this is relevant though, then the current Israeli occupation of east Jerusalem ought to be characterized as an annexation (wouldn’t apply to the rest of the West Bank given Israel’s lack of claim at this moment to the area). I propose the name of this article be changed to “occupation” or the Israeli occupation of the Golan henceforth be referred to as an “annexation” given the similarities between the situations. This would harmonize terminology, as behooves any encyclopedia. Zarcademan123456 (talk) 20:11, 4 March 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. © Tbhotch (en-3). 18:58, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

  • Oppose This is now a historical event rather than anything currently relevant, I see little to be gained by a page move at this point. Annexation can follow occupation, whether it is generally accepted is another matter. See Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation. As an aside, "not conquered from a previous sovereign" is an Israeli talking point of dubious legal value and along with the additional comments about the WB/EJ rather leads me to believe that this proposal is not really intended as an improvement.Selfstudier (talk) 11:55, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

You make a very good point regarding the Russian annexation of the Crimea. That being the case, would you agree that Israel’s rule over the Golan would be more accurately characterized as an “annexation” and no longer an “occupation”? Zarcademan123456 (talk) 15:27, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Maybe there should be an article called Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem or Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem, what do you think?Selfstudier (talk) 16:28, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
No, there should not be an article called the annexation, we cover the legal act at Jerusalem Law. The Israeli annexations were ruled null and void by the UNSC and the sourcing shows that they are referred to by super-wide margins as occupations. Misplaced Pages does not operate on feelings, the sources rule the day here. I dont really oppose moving this to occupation, but the idea that we should use a super-minority view of the status of either EJ or the Golan because of the title of this article is a non-starter. nableezy - 16:51, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
Quite. I wasn't being serious:) Also Golan Heights Law. Selfstudier (talk) 18:02, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Ok...just so I understand, what is the difference between the Jordanian rule over the West Bank and the Israel rule over the Golan...why should they be characterized differently?? Selfstudier, you also avoided my question... Zarcademan123456 (talk) 18:36, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

You are saying they are because you are just reading titles. Read the articles.Selfstudier (talk) 19:52, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Support Firstly, annexation is too technical a term for an article about Jordan's 20-year presence in the West Bank. Secondly, there can already be found a sub-heading in this article which specifically analyses the annexation aspect, whilst the article itself makes plain that annexation was a contested move on the part of Jordan. Any and all technical detail about the hows, whys and wherefores regarding the annexation, which remained controversial, should be discussed in that sub-heading. As far as the Crimea article is concerned, there should be a difference in nomenclature in a situation where the occupier is administering to a territory that contains its own nationals, and who do not seek independence from the motherland. The situation would be different of course should the Crimean Tatar diaspora decide to ingather itself. Havradim (talk) 23:49, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Support. Does appear to be the common name in any case. Especially as it no longer applies. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:14, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose Israeli/Zionist sources have always wanted to call the Jordanian era (1948-1967) as the Jordanian occupation, as that make their own Israeli occupation just appear to follow a "tradition". Nothing could be more false: the Jordanians did not have an apartheid system (which most non-Israeli now commonly call the system on the West Bank). Neither did the Jordanians confiscate a 1/3 of the area for the sole use by people not from the West Bank. Finally; Jordan formally occupied it for 2 years (1948-1950), then annexed it for the next 17 years (1950-1967). But you want those 2 years to "trump" the 17 year? Also, this was discussed at length here, please read that discussion before you vote, Huldra (talk) 20:18, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
I think it is this move request that needs to be read? https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Jordanian_annexation_of_the_West_Bank/Archive_3#Requested_move_23_March_2017 Selfstudier (talk) 11:39, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
It is not only about the two years; Jordan's control over the West Bank, while something more than belligerent occupation, was something less than full legal control. Jordan's role could be most accurately described as "trustee-occupier", which would still be considered an occupation, so the proposed title would be technically correct, and better than the current title, which should be referring to the act of 1950 only. Havradim (talk) 05:14, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
I don't see this move as being about the above analogy, and making it so seems pointy. The article is about the period of time that Jordan controlled the West Bank. Only for part of that time was the territory annexed, and this article is about the whole time period, not the act of annexation. Havradim (talk) 05:14, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose The Jordanian and the Israeli cases are in no way similar. There was a popular Palestinian opinion in favor of Jordanian annexation. Jordan’s annexation may have indeed been unrecognized but it did not contravene international law. And finally Jordan transferred its citizenship and treated the Palestinians equally. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:06, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: The word 'occupation' has a legal meaning. After the armistice in 1949, Jordanian-controlled territory to the east of the Green Line was no more considered 'occupied' than Israeli-controlled territory to the west of it. The topic of this article is the attempt by Jordan to annex the West Bank specifically, which was considered illegitmate, as was the Israeli attempt to annex West Jerusalem. Territories taken by Israel in 1967 are considered to be occupied. Titles for articles should reflect what sources say. Personal opinions about equivalence are irrelevant.     ←   ZScarpia   17:34, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Let us not mix in post-1967 events, since the discussion is about pre-1967. A distinction must be made between much of the territory west of the Green Line, which was allocated to the Jews (Zionists) under the partition plan, and all of the territory east of the Green Line that was occupied by Jordan; the latter was supposed to have been allocated to the Palestinian Arabs, not the Jordanians. So it is fair to say that Jordan occupied the lands of West Bank Palestine under their control, while Israel at most could be said to have occupied the extra land not allocated to them that was conquered in the 1948 war. Havradim (talk) 11:21, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
Please read what I wrote carefully. The word 'occupation' has a meaning in international law. After the 1949 armistice: Jordanian-controlled territory was not considered 'occupied'; Israeli-controlled territory was not considered 'occupied'; Egyptian-controlled territory was not considered 'occupied'. However, despite the fact that those areas were not considereed 'occupied', that does not mean that they were considered to be the territories of the states concerned, hence the controversy when formal annexations were announced.
The 1948 Arab–Israeli War article: "As a result of the war, the State of Israel controlled the area that UN General Assembly Resolution 181 had recommended for the proposed Jewish state, as well as almost 60-percent of the area of Arab state proposed by the 1947 Partition Plan." So Israel, was in control of most of what was supposed to have been an 'Arab' state under the partition plan. In your opinion, the West Bank was occupied, but the 60% of what should have been an Arab state which was controlled by Israel wasn't?
"A distinction must be made between much of the territory west of the Green Line, which was allocated to the Jews (Zionists) under the partition plan." A digression, but the partition plan divided Palestine into nominally 'Jewish' and 'Arab' areas. However, if you count Bedouin, half of the population of the 'Jewish' area was Arab. The Arab residents were supposed to have equal rights. Therefore, it is misleading to say that the partition plan "allocated" the area to the Jews.
    ←   ZScarpia   13:14, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
Let us not bicker about semantics; allocated or not, you admit yourself that the plan divided Palestine into nominally 'Jewish' and 'Arab' areas. I suggest you also read carefully what I wrote above Israel at most could be said to have occupied the extra land not allocated to them that was conquered in the 1948 war. From where in those words do you conclude that I believe Israel not to be an occupier? All of this is a digression to the discussion at hand. Havradim (talk) 23:07, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
I didn't notice that you'd also used the word 'occupied' in relation to Israel. However, your use of the words 'at most' is a bit peculiar (and also open to debate). Both Israel and Jordan were engaged on a land grab and Israel managed to snatch the larger share. From the Arab point of view, of course, the Zionists were the latest in a chain of 'occupiers', continuing on from the Crusaders, Ottomans, French and British, with League of Nations and UN window dressing. You haven't addressed my point that the word 'occupied' has a legal meaning. It differentiates the situation in Palestine pre and post 1967.     ←   ZScarpia   08:32, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
I addressed it earlier in this thread, where I said that Jordan's situation vis a vis the West Bank was far from being one of full legal control, but could be more accurately described as being one of a trustee-occupier; and please refrain from opening up a full-blown Israel Palestine debate, which this is not the place for, and keep this discussion on the Jordanian West Bank. You may wish to create a separate article about the lands Israel occupied in 1948 outside of the UN mandate, but I don't know if a cohesive topic can be built around those from the sources. Havradim (talk) 10:01, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
The personal opinions of me, you or any other editor on how Jordanian control of the West Bank could most accurately be described are irrelevant. The reason that the post-1967 position comes up is that, by describing the period of Jordanian control as occupation, you're טequating it to the later period of Israeli control, which, from a legal point of view, is incorrect. Your comment about "full legal control" misses the point. Viewed in legal terms, the West Bank was not under occupation prior to 1967; afterwards it was. If you want to describe Jordanian control as a trustee-occupation, produce evidence that that's a neutral representation of how sources describe it.     ←   ZScarpia   13:54, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
The personal opinions of me, you or any other editor on how Jordanian control of the West Bank could most accurately be described are irrelevant. It is not my opinion; I provided a source above, and your attempt to portray it as such is disingenuous. Your comment about "full legal control" misses the point. Viewed in legal terms, the West Bank was not under occupation prior to 1967 Your words contradict themselves. If it was anything less than legal, then characterising it as an occupation is valid, and we are searching for a valid title for this article. In the lede it states, "Recognition of Jordan's declaration of annexation was only granted by the United Kingdom, Iraq and Pakistan". I do not think that we should be naming this article based upon the "opinion" of 3 nations. Viewed in legal terms, the West Bank was not under occupation prior to 1967; afterwards it was. I asked you to quit muddying the water by introducing ancillary information to this discussion, but you are projecting a tendency to WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Havradim (talk) 19:19, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
User:Havradim: I don't understand your logic. Jordan grabbed the West Bank (which was supposed to go the Arab state), while Israel grabbed eg Galilee, with Nazareth etc (which was also supposed to go to the Arab state). Do you want an article called Israels occupation of Galilee?...because that was as much an occupation as the Jordanian one. The argument that the annexation was accepted bt only 3 nations is really moot: Legally Jordan had as much right to the West Bank, as Israel had to, say, Nazareth. The fact that fewer countries accepted Jordanian rule (over the West Bank) than accepted Israels rule over Galilee, only shows you who had the most friends in the world.. Huldra (talk) 22:00, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
I am not against an article, but it would have to include all the extra-partition territory, not just the Galilee, and the usual requirements of notability for the topic would need to be met. Havradim (talk) 22:30, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
The argument cannot be resolved in legal terms. It is all bound up with with what the UN continues to refer to as the Question of Palestine. Since the legal status of the Palestine that was there at Mandate termination has never been conclusively determined, then it follows that all the subsequent events have also not been conclusively determined, for they depend on the first. The ICJ (in the wall judgement) decided that post 67 was an occupation subject to Geneva4, ",there being no need for an enquiry into the precise prior status of those territories." Selfstudier (talk) 19:21, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
I don't care what the ICJ said about post 67 because this discussion is solely about pre 67 and how to name this article, not any other. Havradim (talk) 19:32, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
And I have just told you that there is no "legal" answer to that question. To put it another way, every title is as likely to be wrong as every other title (legally speaking). Which is why I said at the outset, there is little to be gained from a page move and nothing that you have said (and you have said a lot) has changed my opinion one whit.Selfstudier (talk) 19:41, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
A suggestion: recommend a new title which substitutes 'rule' or 'control' for 'occupation'.     ←   ZScarpia   19:59, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps, I am still quite interested to hear views from other editors on this one, though.Selfstudier (talk) 20:12, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Good idea; how about Jordanian rule in the West Bank. Havradim (talk) 20:15, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Jordanian rule in the West Bank, (or Jordanian rule of the West Bank?) would be my first choice, Huldra (talk) 22:00, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
See French rule in Algeria and British rule in Burma. I also see no problem with the former title Jordanian West Bank, similar to British Ceylon. Havradim (talk) 22:30, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Jordanian West Bank would also be a good choice (I like short article names), Huldra (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
However it finally ends up, it really ought to be made clear that a title per se does not set a precedent for any other article title so that the type of argument initially made here (re the Golan) is simply inapplicable for the simple reason that the facts and circumstances are different. In other words, arguments along the lines of "this one is an occupation/annex/rule/whatever, so this other one one must be as well" are just invalid except in the unlikely event of the circumstances being identical.Selfstudier (talk) 20:38, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Fine by me. Would just have to figure out how to work it into the first sentence.     ←   ZScarpia   21:07, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
How about this for starters:

Jordan (formerly Transjordan) ruled the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) following the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. During the war, Jordan's Arab Legion took control of territory on the western side of the Jordan River, including the cities of Jericho, Bethlehem, Hebron, Nablus and eastern Jerusalem, including the Old City. Following the end of hostilities, the area under Jordanian control became known as the West Bank.

Talk of Jordanian rule is already present in the succeeding paragraph, and the all-important annexation is mentioned there too. Havradim (talk) 21:26, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I think that's a significant improvement on the way it reads at the moment.     ←   ZScarpia   21:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose since it feels like this is an attempt to mirror the allegations against Israel. "Israeli Occupation" -> "Jordanian Occupation". The question should be what is the article about. There's the annexation itself in 1950 and there's the entire 19 years under Jordanian rule. A better title would probably be something like "West Bank under Jordanian rule".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 09:17, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
I don't agree with changing it to occupation. And while I am not that convinced about annexation either, it is true that Jordan attempted an annex (to extend sovereignty over the territory). They may actually have undone themselves because the 24 April 1950 resolution, as well as the "one state" part, also included a (very confusing) part about a future settlement in Palestine. It is entirely reasonable to ask why, if Israel could declare a state on Palestine, couldn't Jordan do the same? Perhaps there are some issues with the article itself (for instance it has a section Jordanian control that then has a subsection Jordanian control (duh) along with a subsection Annexation. Maybe if we fixed up the article a bit, it might become more clear as to what it ought be titled.Selfstudier (talk) 12:14, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment It seems that "occupation" will not be achieving consensus (I also no longer consider it a viable option); could someone more senior here adjust or redirect this discussion to one or more of the other suggestions mentioned above? Annexation is not a good name for this article regardless, that seems almost certain. Havradim (talk) 01:53, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Not too clear about the bureaucracy, Zarc can withdraw it if he wants to, I think, by deleting the tags so it doesn't show up any more as a live RFC, leaving it instead as a discussion. Then we could either have a new RFC or continue the discussion.(a new RFC might get confusing if there is more than one, or several choices). Another idea might be to keep this article but confine its scope to the annexation and events around it, only. The rest of it can sit in the WB article.Selfstudier (talk) 11:34, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Possibly one of the reasons for the confusion here is that it was actually an attempted annex of a part of Mandate Palestine, the "West Bank" phrase only coming in as part of that annex process or afterwards.Selfstudier (talk) 12:49, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
See below section, there are quite a few sources that equate WB with "central Palestine" and even refer to the annexation of central Palestine so that is an alternative, at least it is not referring to the annex of something that wasn't even there to be annexed:)Selfstudier (talk) 14:30, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
This contains a discussion of the different opinions about whether or not it can be said to have been an annexation Selfstudier (talk) 20:09, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Another idea might be to keep this article but confine its scope to the annexation and events around it, only. The rest of it can sit in the WB article. I would endorse this. It would be keeping with present consensus, and allow for a hashing out of the nature of Jordan's rule which, after all, seems to be the main point of having this article in the first place; it would also allow for the merging of the historical content to West Bank, with some possibly going to Jordan. Havradim (talk) 22:37, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Problem for me in commenting on which direction to go is that I have a pretty sketchy idea of what the structure of articles around the topic of the West Bank is. Looking back at how the current article developed, it looks as though the intention was for it to cover the whole period of Jordanian rule rather than just the annexation. Therefore we've somehow ended up with a title that doesn't fit the article well rather than an article that developed away from its initial topic. That suggests that the best course would probably be to select a new title rather than pulling material out. In any case, we could solve the immediate problem of an inappropriate title and then figure out afterwards whether it would be a good idea to change the arrangement of articles. Would you like to proceed, either yourself asking editors to comment on one of the suggestions above which no-one has currently raised objections to, or requesting Zarcademan123456 to do something similar?     ←   ZScarpia   15:01, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
Yes and no, it depends how you like to look at the annexation, as an event (or a short time process) or as a description for the whole time until it was no longer annexed. The situations are not identical obviously but the Jerusalem and Golan annexations (they are similar in that both are contested or not accepted internationally) are dealt with as events and then the rest is in the respective article.Selfstudier (talk) 18:12, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
My initial agreement with this Rfc was only because I saw "occupation" as a way to reconcile what I thought was the wrong title for this article's content as it presently stands, and the above title suggestions were a valid attempt to correct it; but Selfstudier's idea to make the content fit the title is I think an easier way to achieve same. It makes no difference at all if the annexation was recognised or not because that question itself needs to be the whole focus of this article. At first glance, the only paragraphs to my mind that stand in the way of a coherent title are "Tensions", "Agriculture" etc, and the section "Access to holy sites". It would not be a big job at all to integrate those into West Bank and solve all of the above problems. The harder job would come next, explaining the essence of the annexation in-depth. It doesn't matter how this article started out if the focus might have been wrong to begin with; I think the essence of the Jordanian West Bank is less about the (rather mundane) events that transpired there-in and more about the definition of this time period. This scheme would serve to illustrate that purpose, while the history would not suffer if placed in the general article, where it would fit well. Portions of the history that could clearly be connected to the legal status of Jordanian rule could be retained. I would be interested to hear what Zarcademan123456 has to say about the above, even though it looks as though "occupation" will not be getting off the ground at this point. Havradim (talk) 07:04, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"West Bank of Jordan"?

Anyone know if there ever was an entity/administrative area called "West Bank of Jordan" or is that just a manner of speaking? Selfstudier (talk) 14:29, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Probably not what you're after, but Cisjordan was used as an alternative, general name for the area between the Jordan and Mediterranean, as Transjordan was used for the area to the east of the river, of course. My impression was that the term 'West Bank' came in to use round about the time of the 1949 armistice.     ←   ZScarpia   14:58, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
The Cis and Trans make sense. I asked because the WB dab page has the entry "West Bank of Jordan" (redirect to this article) and calls it an Administrative Area. (at the top of the BB page it says "For administrative area of Jordan 1948–1967" and again to here. Seems a bit misleading on the face of it.Selfstudier (talk) 19:26, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
I don't know when the divisions were actually established (by the early 1960s at least) but the WB was divided into three governorates: Nablus, Al Quds, and Al Khalil. I don't think that WB as a whole was ever an official Jordanian unit, but don't trust my fuzzy memory on this. Zero 00:45, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
The phrase shows up surprisingly often in a Google search. After rooting around, I have come to the conclusion that the phrase means .."West Bank" of Jordan.. (dating from the annex with what is now Jordan being the "East Bank" and as still expressed even now on occasion by Jordanians and Israelis possibly in a propaganda type of way) rather than some unit or entity called "West Bank of Jordan" (of which I can find no evidence anywhere up to now) and this is perhaps where the term "West Bank" on its own originated? If someone finds a source for this interpretation that would be nice, meantime I think I will just change the dab.Selfstudier (talk) 12:30, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
According to John Quigley (6 September 2010). The Statehood of Palestine: International Law in the Middle East Conflict. Cambridge University Press. pp. 118–. ISBN 978-1-139-49124-2. the area was called "central Palestine" and "denominated by Jordan as the West Bank of the Jordan river",Selfstudier (talk) 13:55, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Suleiman A. Mourad; Naomi Koltun-Fromm; Bedross Der Matossian (26 October 2018). Routledge Handbook on Jerusalem. Taylor & Francis. pp. 351–. ISBN 978-1-317-38539-4. also refers to "central Palestine", "Jordan ultimately annexed central Palestine, including East Jerusalem"Selfstudier (talk) 14:19, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
I did some searching to try to establish how rule of the West Bank was organised. Except for a reference to a governor of West Jerusalem, I pretty much drew a blank. I suspect that the phrase "administrative area" implies more than the editor intended.
With regard to the usage history of the term "West Bank", the ebook version of Daniel Pipes' "Greater Syria, The History of an Ambition" (1992) says :
"Only in March did he replace military rule with a civilian authority in the conquered areas. In April, Jordanian nationality was offered to all non-Jewish residents of mandatory Palestine.Just as 'Abdallah had brought Lesser Syrians into the Transjordanian government three decades earlier, he brought Palestinians from the West Bank into the Jordanian cabinet. In May, a cabinet was formed which included three Palestinians in important positions, and a fourth was soon added; a year later, six of eleven ministers came from the West Bank. In June 1949 the name of the kingdom was changed from Transjordan to Jordan. A Jordanian stamp with "Palestine" superimposed was issued in August. Customs and travel restrictions across the Jordan River disappeared in November. 'Abdallah invested in himself all the authority of the British mandatory power in Palestine in December. In March 1950, a royal decree banned the word Palestine from government documents; Transjordan and Palestine were henceforth replaced by the new terms, East Bank and West Bank. Finally, in April 1950, the conquered territories were formally incorporated. Jordanian dinars became the only legal currency on the West Bank in September."
The most salient point there is that, in Jordanian usage, the term West Bank appears to have been applied to the whole of Palestine, not just the area ruled by the Jordanians.
    ←   ZScarpia   10:40, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
If you are deducing this from the word "Palestine" in the bolded sentence above, remember that Palestine in 1920 meant all of what today comprises Israel and Jordan. The presumptive way to read that sentence is that it was referring to that part of the proposed Arab state (presumably which was going to be named Palestine had same been accepted) which remained in Arab hands. We wouldn't include Jaffa in an article about the West Bank, and certainly not Tel Aviv. If your proof is that, since all of Transjordan, not just the part of it on the actual bank of the Jordan, was refererred to as the bank, so therefore the entire opposite land-mass must be the bank too, that would only be true if Jordan had actually controlled all of the west side as they did the east. Havradim (talk) 18:33, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
It is not a great idea to analyze the word of Daniel Pipes too closely. Zero 09:24, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
I did feel compelled to check whether the book was written by Richard, the father, rather than Daniel, the son. It was, though, the most detailed of the sources about Jordanian rule which I found.     ←   ZScarpia   09:52, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Creation of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the Unification of the Two Banks Leave this one here as well if we maybe start editing the article at any point.Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
I think I once offered to change the name to West Bank under Jordanian rule. What do you think?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:49, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, you proposed that in the just closed PM discussion but it didn't get any traction. Neither did anything else really, although, as I said below there was some support for trimming the article so that it covers only the annexation and the time frame around that with the rest being moved into the WB article. Whatever it is called, we still should describe the event itself and the fact of its non-acceptance internationally. The situation is problematic because the ICJ decided not to address the prior status of territories (we know that it was the Mandate territory and that's it) when they had the chance, saying it wasn't necessary in order to determine the wall question. So there are a variety of views on that (see the pdf link I gave in the PM discussion).Selfstudier (talk) 15:01, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
I read the closure of the previous move request as there being no consensus for renaming the article from "Jordanian annexation of the West Bank" to "Jordanian occupation of the West Bank" specifically. It did look as though there were alternatives which might be acceptable, but the discussion petered out without any explicit proposals being made.     ←   ZScarpia   12:32, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
I haven't suggested it previously, the least troublesome description that I can think of is "administered" or "administration" which sidesteps everything (and would probably get objected to because of that:)Selfstudier (talk) 16:54, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Suggest it!     ←   ZScarpia   20:32, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Why? First it was rule, and sources say so, then it was annexed, and sources say so. Not the mention the double standard in comparison with Israeli rule and annexation of territories. Debresser (talk) 17:52, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Don't waste your energies with the "double standard" nonsense, the only commonality is in the international non- acceptance.Selfstudier (talk) 21:16, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
That same non-acceptance is true for the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank. So, again, double standard applies when you insist on calling the same thing by different names. Debresser (talk) 21:52, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
I think you must not have read what I said.Selfstudier (talk) 09:09, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
If you want to apply a common standard then shouldn't you also be referring to all the territory Israel was in control of west of the Armistice Line, the part outside the Partition Plan boundaries at least, as 'occupied'?     ←   ZScarpia   12:49, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

RFC: Name of article: Jordanian West Bank?

From the discussion above, how about moving this article to Jordanian West Bank? Huldra (talk) 22:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

No - - turning an article about an illegal annexation not recognized by the international community into 'Jordanian" territory? Never going to fly. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 00:15, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Huldra: Can you please explain why you started an RfC instead of following the procedure in Misplaced Pages:Requested moves? --Bsherr (talk) 01:21, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Probably a bit too soon for another page move discussion, although there was no consensus for a move in the recently closed discussion, there was some weak approval (and no outright disapproval) for article editing to make it fit the title better, perhaps moving some of it into the WB article.Selfstudier (talk) 09:26, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

How about one of the others options which were suggested, but not discussed much, during the move request, "Jordanian rule in the West Bank" or "Jordanian rule of the West Bank"?     ←   ZScarpia   12:40, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Why nutpick about "in" or "of", when the problem is with the word "rule", which I agree is not going to fly. Debresser (talk) 17:54, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
What is your objection to the word 'rule'? The reason I highlighted the words 'in' and 'of' was so that the difference between the previously made suggestions could be seen more easily. That choice is one of style not meaning.     ←   ZScarpia   12:21, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
Calling annexation "rule" is being less informative than an encyclopedia should be. I'd even go as far s to say it is misleading. These are completely different statuses. Debresser (talk) 21:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
Jordanian rule in the West Bank will not work. The 20-year time period involved did not generate enough unique material to warrant an article similar to the one discussing British rule in Burma, for example, which covers a 100-year period chock full of history, battles, an invasion, culture etc. This is without even getting into the problems of how to define the nature of Jordanian control there. Selfstudier has in the meantime boldly edited this article to let it focus on the annexation, a subject that warrants not a small amount of scrutiny itself, to match the much-bickered-over article title. Havradim (talk) 20:48, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

"occupied from"

Uh, yes, you can in fact say "occupied from" a country. See for example these sources: , . I am restoring that language. nableezy - 02:20, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

no it isnt lol. These two books are, unsurprisingly, by non-native English speakers, whose first language is Hebrew, and they had poor editors for those books. In Hebrew (and I imagine other semitic languages), the semitic root כ־ב־שׁ is used for both "occupy" and "capture " or "take over" (and some other related terms), and they carried that over, ungrammatically, into English. In English, you don't "occupy form a country". JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 15:42, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, Cambridge University Press, that well known outlet of ungrammatical English and poor editors. Silly me, I should have listened to JungerMan Chips Ahoy. nableezy - 17:32, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Simply not grammatical English, no matter which press published it. Even Cambridge slips up. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Anything that supports that besides some random person on the internet? Because Oxford University Press seems to think its fine too. Another from CUP, Wiley-Blackwell. So I have these sources, written by actual experts, published by some of the top academic publishers on the planet, using a certain phrasing. Then on the other hand we have you. Which of those should carry the day on Misplaced Pages? I wonder ... nableezy - 17:44, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Oh, wait, theres even more. CSM, Routledge, more from OUP, The Economist, NY Times. All these sources are wrong on a question of grammar, and JungerMan Chips Ahoy is right here yall. Wrap it up, we solved it. nableezy - 17:49, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Nableezy, please engage in this discussion in a less-confrontational way. You can disagree with an editor without taunting them. Levivich  17:56, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
An article talk page is for discussing article content, not editors. If you have something to say about me or to me, theres a place for that. nableezy - 18:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Now I know what this is about, I will look into it some more, you may both be right. There is no question that "occupy from" sounds very odd (to these English ears) but it may be OK depending on the exact context in which it is being used, in all the WP articles re IP (that I have seen) it is unnecessary because the context is usually clear.Selfstudier (talk) 17:58, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Ahah! So that's the reason, that has been driving me up the wall (Zarcademan, too, lol).Selfstudier (talk) 17:42, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
English has no rulebook; there is no authority for what is and isn't "grammatically correct"; but either way, I agree that construction is awkward af and should be avoided. Maybe it's an engvar thing. Levivich  17:56, 27 April 2020 (UTC)'
Reliable sources of the highest quality seem to dispute your notion that it is "awkward af". We follow sources here, not preferences of random Misplaced Pages editors based on nothing but their own imaginations. nableezy - 18:11, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
It is as awkward af, no doubt about it. I looked at 5 of those sources you put up and the context there is entirely different. Let me also explain another way, if you google "Israel occcupied the Golan Heights" (with the quotes) I get 12k hits but if I google "Israel occupied the Golan Heights from" I get 82 hits total (38K and 42 if you use West Bank instead). Selfstudier (talk) 18:38, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Im sorry, what? The context is different? Hwhat? CSM: This distinction gives support to the PLO content in that the West Bank and Gaza district should form part of an independent Palestinian state and are not to be equated with other Arab territories, such as Sinai or the Golan Heights, occupied from Egypt and Syria. OUP: These included the Golan Heights occupied from Syria, the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip occupied from Egypt, and the West Bank occupied from Jordan. NYT: Israeli withdrawal from almost all the land occupied from Egypt, Syria and Jordan, another book from OUP: The farms compose a disputed borderline area that, according to Lebanon and Syria, belongs to Lebanon, or, according to the UN, is part of the Golan Heights, which Israel occupied from Syria in the 1967 war. What exactly is different about the context? That you, or anybody else, are unfamiliar with a usage does not make it "awkward af". "occupied from some country" is used in plenty of sources. What exactly is different about the context of those sources? nableezy - 20:33, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
OK, we can agree to differ on this and it actually does not matter because if I had to use one of those sources for a fact about occupation in one of the articles we have been discussing here on WP (which is a different context to that in the sources you are showing), I can guarantee you that my prose (we don't just copy from sources) would not under any circumstances include the use of the expression "occupied from (some country)". I changed another one earlier today, instead of "Israel captured and occupied a majority of the Golan Heights from Syria" I put "Israel occupied the Syrian Golan", simple, correct and not awkward at all. And if I were to see redundant usage while on my travels I would not hesitate to delete the offending material. It's up to you if you want to copy from sources, I am not telling you what to do, I am giving you my opinion and it is valid because I am in no way misrepresenting any source.Selfstudier (talk) 21:31, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I asked you how the sources have a different context. Can you answer that? Just proclaiming something is awkward based on your own personal feelings doesnt really answer that for me. nableezy - 21:53, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I just answered you. The context in our articles (WP articles) is clear and so the from wherever bit is not necessary (you can put in if you want to, that's up to you). If I take the OUP source, for example, it is an explanatory footnote in a book about host states and diasporas (so that is already 2 contextual differences to a WP article and apart from that if I were using that as a source for an article here (unlikely) I would simply omit the "from Syria" part with no loss of meaning (because the context here would be Syria/Golan and even if that wasn't the case I still would find another way of phrasing it rather than use the clunky "from.." construction.Selfstudier (talk) 10:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Uh, where did you answer me? What is different about the context of the sources I listed and how it was written in the article? You very much did not answer me, you asserted something, and when asked for evidence asserted it again. Thats cool I guess, but sources from top quality publishers all find "occupied from" to be acceptable usage. Your limited experience with that phrasing does not trump that, sorry. nableezy - 16:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
I have answered you twice now, I am not going to do it again because you don't like the answer (nor am I asserting that it is bad grammar, I am saying it is awkward, clunky and that no native English speaker would ordinarily speak or write like that and I stand by that statement, your sources notwithstanding. I know without even looking that I can find far more that do not use that construction.Selfstudier (talk) 17:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Well then direct me to where the answer is? Because in everything you have written there is not one word about how the context in the sources is different than the context of what the article said. You have asserted something and then when asked for evidence repeated your assertion. Im sorry, that is not an answer, and I dont really see the point in arguing with people who refuse to actually respond to requests that they back up their opinions with something other than restating their opinions. You say it is awkward, I say well here are several sources that use this formulation and they do not consider it awkward. You repeat it is awkward and pat yourself on the back for proving it so. Well great, but you never actually did. The game of I already answered you when you very much have not is I suppose amusing for the one playing it, but it isnt on this end. nableezy - 18:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Continuing this conversation is pointless, you put "from.." as often as you wish and I will put it not at all, end of.Selfstudier (talk) 19:06, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Don't even bother. I have been there many times with this editor. He will continue to claim he didn't get an answer. Debresser (talk) 21:05, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
lol, ok pal. Ill eat my hat if anybody shows where anybody showed how the usage found in any number of sources is of a different context than we had here. I very seriously doubt Ill have to break my fast, as nobody has. Glad to see I dont need to adjust my views on the quality of arguments found on these pages though. nableezy - 22:11, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
For curiousity's sake, I traced that footnote back, it is itself sourced to Norris 2007 (which is a journal article, The Role of Hezbollah in Lebanese Domestic Politics by Augustus Richard Norton) and that source does NOT use the construction "from Syria" and simply refers to "the still-occupied Shebaa farms".Selfstudier (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
For what it is worth, I agree that the "from"-construction sounds awkward. The only reasons I didn't intervene is that its meaning is clear. Nableezy, I think that "proclaiming something is awkward based on your own personal feelings" is perfectly in line with Misplaced Pages:Close_paraphrasing#How_to_write_acceptable_content and basic principles of editing. Debresser (talk) 13:20, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
That actually quite literally has nothing to do with anything. People are arguing that it is not valid grammar to say "occupied from". I show sources from some of the most prestigious English language publishers using that phrasing. And the answer? It sounds weird to me. Well maybe open a book and it wont be as weird. nableezy - 16:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
As an aside, the opening sentence of this article reads "The Jordanian annexation of the West Bank was the occupation of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) by Jordan"; assuming we were to use the "from" construction, who would that be in this case?Selfstudier (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

We are talking at cross purposes here, the article currently says: "During the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel captured and occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, from Jordan, although Jordan, despite not continuing to be the actual sovereign" OK, there are some different points here:

1) "from Jordan" is not necessary (here, in this article).

2) "captured and" is not necessary (occupation implies capture).

3) Jordan did continue to be sovereign (via disputed annex) until 31 July 1988 when Jordan renounced its claims (whatever they were) to the West Bank in favor of the Palestinians.

So I changed it to this language.

"Following the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem although Jordan continued to...."

Selfstudier (talk) 10:50, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I just happened to be at this also, and after an edit conflict made a few minor changes. Nothing that should be controversial. Please notice that I asked for a source that Jordan continued to pay salaries to civil servants. By the way, did those civil servants continue their jobs as well? Debresser (talk) 10:58, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Agree, needs a source.Selfstudier (talk) 12:17, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
It was a result of a policy known as "open bridges" (best of enemies? frenemies?), I gave a cite two cites for it.Selfstudier (talk) 13:55, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Thanks very much. Very interesting information. Debresser (talk) 21:16, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 2 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 22:51, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Jordanian annexation of the West Bank → Jordanian occupation and annexation of the West Bank – This name covers Jordanian rule pre and post annexation, while clarifying the difference between the two. Zarcademan123456 (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

  • Keep I understand the desire to adduce an equivalence between the Jordanian actions and the Israeli actions in respect of the same space. However, it is simply not the case that such an equivalence exists. To begin with (there are other distinctions that it is not necessary to dwell upon here) there is no evidence that there ever existed a military occupation, if the usual details are forthcoming, date started, name of military administration, name of commander and so on, I will be the first to set up an article entitled "Jordanian occupation of the West Bank" to cover the period prior to the annexation period. There are no UN resolutions referring to any Jordanian occupation and actions were taken during the alleged period of occupation that do not square with a military occupation, for example, granting every Palestinian in February 1949, Jordanian citizenship.Selfstudier (talk) 10:31, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Keep the way it was. While the new proposal is technically accurate, it is not a concise enough title; also a few problems have been raised with the word occupation applied in this context. Havradim (talk) 19:26, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

So it seems as if the question is whether or not “occupation” is used in physical or governance sense, as @selfstudier mentioned on RFC page on Israel-Palestine collaboration talk page. Is there any guidelines that can be made to resolve this dispute? Zarcademan123456 (talk) 22:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

May I suggest only using “occupy” in the governing sense, not physical sense? Zarcademan123456 (talk) 22:46, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Look, if we were out in the world somewhere, this distinction would not be an issue for the majority of folk. But in here, in WP, and in particular in the IP area, occupy(ied/ation) only has one meaning (take a guess which one). The custom is to use capture (or some equivalent euphemism) when you mean the physical sort of occupationSelfstudier (talk) 11:40, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Tentative keep. The article title will in the end depend on what exactly the article is about. As it stands, I read the article as discussing the timeline during which the West Bank went from British Territory to being annexed by Jordan. Given this, the current title is succinct and covers the content, as the occupation is clearly presented as a step that led to annexation. It might be possible to have two separate articles at some point, one on occupation which might perhaps go into detail about how Jordanian troops entered the territory and then established control, and one about annexation which might perhaps deal with the legal process and its impacts (such as citizenship). However, on the merits of the content of this article as it stands, the current title makes sense and fits WP:TITLE. CMD (talk) 08:38, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit warring

Afaics, editor @Zarcademan123456: is in breach of 1R (and quite possibly 3R as well).

Diff 1Diff 2Diff 3

LOL I missed a whole day apparently. Thought today was Tuesday. Next time please note on my wall, thank you Zarcademan123456 (talk) 11:14, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

@Zarcademan123456: In order to take the matter to the appropriate forum I am required to attempt a resolution on this page, I did ping you and you have now responded.
In addition a PM to change the name of this article to "Jordanian occupation and annexation of the West Bank" was closed "not moved" on 13 April (there were no yes votes other than that of the proposer (Zarcademan 123456).
Therefore the opening sentence of the lead "The Jordanian annexation of the West Bank was the occupation of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) by Jordan (formerly Transjordan) following the 1948 Arab–Israeli War and its subsequent annexation" is in direct contradiction of the PM result. Yet attempts to alter this sentence so as to remove the word occupation in line with the outcome are being reverted without any justification.

Selfstudier (talk) 11:24, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

“Occupation” refers to system of governance before annexation. If we want to be strictly true to article name, then we should either just completely ignore period before annexation or say something along lines of “Jordanian annexation occurred after the occupation of West Bank following capture of area during war.” The whitewashing of the occupation period needs to stop though. Also, where’s the ping? If pinged I should get notification right? Or are you referring to ping from days ago, not recent? Also, more appropriate for this chat to be on my talk page? Idk, I am just asking Zarcademan123456 (talk) 11:48, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

If by ping you mean “@zarcademan” then while I notice you did that for whatever reason I didn’t get notification Zarcademan123456 (talk) 11:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

This section is about "edit warring", my notifying you about it and attempting resolution as required. I have now done so.Selfstudier (talk) 11:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

“Also, more appropriate for this chat to be on my talk page? Idk, I am just asking” just saw “am required to attempt a resolution on this page”, my failure to read critically, apologies. Thx for notification on page Zarcademan123456 (talk) 12:30, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I have also now informed you directly on your talk page about the edit warring policy (you are already aware of the 1R policy on IP pages)

Selfstudier (talk) 12:35, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Zarcademan123456, could you please point me towards the RfC you mentioned? I can't find it. As for the first sentence, I have reworded my formulation to include explicit mention of the occupation, while still flowing better with the rest of the first paragraph. Does that address whitewashing issues? CMD (talk) 13:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
@Chipmunkdavis: He means the PM I linked above, the one that you commented on, he says that your comment is a "ruling", Bottom of this section as well refers Selfstudier (talk) 13:21, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure works for me. Thank you Zarcademan123456 (talk) 22:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

RFC: Rule or Occupation?

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Should the section titled "Jordanian occupation" be changed to "Jordanian rule"? Selfstudier (talk) 13:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Vote

Discussion

@Selfstudier: Per WP:RFCBEFORE, where is the discussion of this issue on this talk page prior to the RfC? --Bsherr (talk) 16:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

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