Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Barkeep49 (talk | contribs) at 20:45, 21 May 2020 (→Edon Molla: question). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives (Index)

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The Gradient is the Steepest Direction Deletion

Hi Barkeep49, Sorry am I even doing the right thing to talk to you. I made my first new page about a topic that I am quite excited about. I could not figure out how to save it without posting it, so sorry I kept posting it. Then without warning my work disappeared. I dont even know how to retrieve a copy of what I did for myself. It seems to be gone. I worked hard on it. I cant say this is that encouraging to help people post things. I am a professor of math and computer science. I find that math on wikipedia is not that accessible to non-math people. (I rewrote the page proving orbits are elliptical.) In this case, I do not think that it is clear what it means that the direction of steepest ascent is the gradient. Even if you understand it, I dont think it is clear that it is true. I know that my undergrad and graduate students even in machine learning dont really get it. I was only trying to help. Are you judge and jury or can I appeal? Hopefully, I can figure out how to follow this thread. If not I am at jeff@cse.yorku.ca http://www.eecs.yorku.ca/~jeff Thanks Jeff — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeffAEdmonds (talk • contribs) 22:19, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

JeffAEdmonds, hi there. I admit I struggled with this one quite a bit and understand why you're feeling discouraged. So there are two issues. The first is whether this is a duplicate of the topic at Gradient descent. The second is whether this content is ready for mainspace. I'm not enough of a subject matter expert on that first question to know. It seems like from your description it might be. The second is that it appeared to be written more like a textbook than an encyclopedia article. I could use this textbook approach but it's not necessarily our "house style". However, given your request I have restored the article to Draft:The Gradient is the Steepest Direction to give you a place you can keep working on it. I would urge you to see help, however, before moving it back to article space. Let me know if there are other questions I might be able to answer. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

(simultaneous posting, sorry!) JeffAEdmonds, if you'd read your talk page, you'd see that I created your sandbox for you and saved your work (at 11:49 pacific) there: User:JeffAEdmonds/Sandbox. You can continue your work, but you're duplicating an existing article (Gradient descent). You might want to discuss your ideas for improving the article with other editors at Talk:Gradient descent. Schazjmd (talk) 22:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Schazjmd, just a note that you did a copy and paste move which is discouraged because it obscures edit history. I have now done the histmerge (hopefully correctly) to fix this. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning up after me, Barkeep49, sorry about that. Schazjmd (talk) 22:38, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I will work of talking to the other editors. Thanks for showing me where to find it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeffAEdmonds (talk • contribs) 22:33, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi again. I find myself thinking about what you explained to me. "The second is that it appeared to be written more like a textbook than an encyclopedia article. I could use this textbook approach but it's not necessarily our "house style"." This explains why I am frustrated by so many of the wiki-math pages when they seem to list facts without explaining them to me. Why is this your "house style"? I learned to sign today. Lets see if it works. JeffAEdmonds (talk) 15:00, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

JeffAEdmonds, it did work. As someone who never ventured beyond calc I also am incredibly frustrated by many of Misplaced Pages's math pages. In terms of what a well written math page on Misplaced Pages should look like you could see our featured articles which were, at the time they passed at least, high quality representations of Misplaced Pages writing. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:55, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Bigbasket

Hi Barkeep49 My page Bigbasket was deleted reason Unambiguous advertising or promotion, I have created the page only based on the news which I read, as per the advice of the advertising team of Misplaced Pages I had removed the promotional content from the page still the page was deleted. if the promotional content is removed will it be possible to refund the page. Thanks, Glittershield (talk) 03:26, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Glittershield, what's your connection to Bigbasket? What advertising team? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for replying Barkeep I have no connection with the company, I have interest in reading news and as I stay in India and have used their online service to order groceries and have read about this company in the news, so thought to write about them.Glittershield (talk) 03:40, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Glittershield, thanks that's helpful. Can you also explain what you mean by "advertising team of Misplaced Pages"? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks once again for replying, yesterday when I contested for speedy deletion of the page I got a message for Advertisement not sure about the user name as I did not find one in the message, it was mentioned that the page has phrasing issue and that the sentence like in one day and help is considered as promotional, so that is when I removed those sentences and edited help with the word assist.Glittershield (talk) 04:04, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Glittershield,I have restored the article at Draft:Bigbasket. Going through Articles for Creation will help ensure the promotional language has been removed before it is put back in mainspace. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Barkeep for restoring the page, I will go through Articles for creation, it is really confusing for me to understand what is the promotional language. Just seeking advice is there any way that someone could help me in identifying the promotional content on the page. Thank youGlittershield (talk) 04:32, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep, this is regarding my page Bigbasket which was moved to my draft, just seeking help I have removed the promotional content of the page and have formatted the page if time permits could you please check my page and assist me if it could be moved to the MainPage. Thanks in advance, regardsGlittershield (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Glittershield,there is a big blue button that says "submit this draft for review". Click that and then click publish on the next screen. That will alert reviewers that you think it's ready. Drafts are reviewed in no particular order and a review can happen very quickly or only after several weeks. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:10, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Nominating others for adminship

Hello Barkeep49,
I am thinking about nominating someone for adminship, but I'm not sure whom. Can you give me some tips on what I should look for in a candidate for an RFA? Interstellarity (talk) 20:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Interstellarity, well I've only done this twice and we don't know how the second time is going to turn out. I would suggest there are others with far more nominating experience than me who could offer you better advice. I will say on the whole I have mixed feelings about noms but to the extent that they're useful normally it's a recommendation from a sysop. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Interstellarity I've seen you ask this before, elsewhere but I would advise you to refrain from entangling yourself with RFA short of a simple vote, given your tenuous history here, a nomination from you would likely hurt a candidates chances rather than help them. Praxidicae (talk) 21:10, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Interstellarity: I must echo the comments above - and will add - this comment will kill, stone dead, any RfA you start. The only possible way to read your message is that you're trying to promote your own interests using a poor and possibly unsuspecting victim. And as most of the project thinks you're an idiot, that's probably going to have a pretty catastrophic impact on your nominee too, which isn't fair on them. Oh well. Nick (talk) 21:18, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi all, I will refrain from nominating anyone at this point. I'm not sure if most of the project thinks I'm an idiot as I am trying my best to be constructive here in the best ways possible. I can say with absolute certainty that I am not perfect. I make mistakes. I feel it is important to really learn from my mistakes and that's what I've been trying to do. I hope this helps. Interstellarity (talk) 21:31, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Nick I think there are ways of plainly speaking difficult truths while being respectful. The bad faith of The only possible way to read your message is that you're trying to promote your own interests using a poor and possibly unsuspecting victim. could maybe be defended this way. I do not think as most of the project thinks you're an idiot has a place in the way we talk to one another. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:34, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

(watching) I'm almost tempted to take up Interstellarity's offer. It would certainly be an educational experience; possibly for both of us ;) SERIAL 21:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

as most of the project thinks you're an idiot wow, from an admin? WP:ADMINCOND anyone? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:55, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

It was unduly harsh, and to Interstellarity I do apologise. I should have been more careful in how I worded my fear that a number of people have concerns about Interstellarity's past editing conduct, and that those concerns may potentially lead to an unfair assessment of any candidate that they propose at RfA. I really would not wish to see an excellent administrator candidate being unfairly penalised because of their nominator, given how important the nominator(s) now are. It is nothing personal with regards to Interstellarity and I apologise for making it so. Nick (talk) 22:10, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Nick: It's OK. I accept your apology. That comment made me feel bad about my editing. I saw that a lot of people have concerns about my past editing conduct. Please tell me what they are so I can make things right. Interstellarity (talk) 22:26, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Interstellarity The issues that I see (and which some others have raised) would be a series of small things like swapping out the oversight logo, making changes to the Misplaced Pages FAQ, moving past RfAs around etc, minor confusion regarding what is a policy or guideline and so on. These are small issues, on their own, nothing really to worry about, but taken together, they're best described as 'running before walking'. I know all were made in good faith, and were well intentioned attempts to improve the project, save others on work etc, but they've typically ended up as minor inconveniences which someone else has to fix, finish off or revert. These issues, in turn, risk leading people to conclude you're not fully up to speed on the administrative aspects of the project, so aren't best placed to assess potential candidates fully, which may not be the case and could potentially then be unfair on whoever you were to nominate. Nick (talk) 23:00, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Nick: I understand these issues. I think the best thing I can do in the future is talk to someone before implementing these kinds of major changes. That way, I am not causing disruption that needs to be reverted. I feel that is the best way to make things right from here. Interstellarity (talk) 23:54, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Interstellarity, I'm glad to see you take that advice. While we might be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, some edits are best left for others. And that includes me as a sysop - I have places where I am too new of a sysop to be the right person to do something and have to trust in others. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:01, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comments like this: as most of the project thinks you're an idiot, if someone want to do some muck-raking, even only four or five, are enough to get even the most prolific and experienced admins witch hunted, railroaded, desysopped, ostracised, and hung, drawn, and quartered in today's climate... Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:54, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Transall AfD

Can you please explain why you closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Transall as Keep rather than relisting it or closing as No Consensus. There were 4 Keeps and 3 Delete/Redirects and so I'm not sure how saw that there was a consensus to Keep the page in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Deletion process. regards Mztourist (talk) 10:39, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Mztourist, there were no people beyond you who supported deletion. Everyone else was a keep or a merge. As merging can be done outside of AfD I saw no consensus for anything but keep. And there was enough participation for a relist to be unnecessary in my view. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

The reason why it went to AFD was because of the discussion on the Talk Page: Talk:Transall#Should workshare and final assembly activities by the company be mentioned?. The page was 1357 bytes until March when a whole lot of duplicative information was copied over from the Transall C-160. The Keeps were those who added that information in. I believe there is nothing to merge because all the relevant information is already on Transall C-160, but please advise how a merge can be done outside of AFD in these circumstances. Mztourist (talk) 15:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Mztourist, the way to do it is through a formal merge discussion. If you propose that - and based on what you've written I think you should - you could ping all participants at the AfD to the discussion. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:16, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks but in my experience such discussions rarely achieve consensus when one or two Users oppose them and so they just linger unresolved, whereas an AFD tends to attract more attention from uninvolved Users and a clear consensus. Mztourist (talk) 15:22, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Mztourist, I certainly agree AfD is a forum that can gain consensus for things that can be hard to get consensus through other processes. In this case I don't see the discussion at AfD having achieved that for you. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:40, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Which is why I questioned why you closed it as Keep when a Relisting may have generated a clear consensus or led to a No Consensus closure. Mztourist (talk) 03:48, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Mztourist, I think there was enough participation, not only in number of participants but in number of comments (not the least of which were by you) to have generated a consensus so no relist was necessary. And I will further say that in an AfD full of Keep and Merge !votes I know of no regular AfD closer who would close as no consensus. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:18, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't see how my Delete, 2 Merges and 4 Keeps is a clear consensus to Keep and in my recent experience on AFD other AFD closers would relist to try to generate a clearer consensus. Anyway I will leave this here and relist it at AFD in due course. regards Mztourist (talk) 06:07, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

NPP tutoring

If you have any spare capacity for this, would you consider overseeing me through it? I have been around a long time, under several names, and in the days when anyone could review new pages did quite a lot, but not for some time (years). I think I know quite a lot of the necessary stuff by now, but would certainly appreciate a structured overhaul. I do already hang around New Pages, with a view to brushing up potentially acceptable articles rather than picking out the unacceptable. Please let me know! Best wishes, Ingratis (talk) 16:23, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Ingratis, I think one of the best places we can find new editors is from those who've edited in the past and stopped. I don't see anything that would concern me about taking you on as a NPP student. Two notes. First, while I have capacity at the moment sometimes I get busy/distracted elsewhere and might need a little bit of time to respond but on the whole I try to be very responsive for NPP students. Second, following the conclusion of the Medicine Arbcom case I am going to be taking some time to "go back to my roots" and anticipate taking two or three weeks where I would not be doing NPP School. The case is currently on track to end mid to end of May and so we'd have to pause our work at that time (if you and I are both super on this it normally takes 3/4 weeks but if either of us is a bit slower it can go longer than that). Assuming you're ok with all this I'll setup a space for us to work. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:35, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

That's great - I understand the points you make about timing and am happy to fit round the other things you have going on. Thank you very much! Ingratis (talk) 18:20, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Ingratis, great. I have setup a space for us to work. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Reclose

Hi Barkeep49 — I noticed you reclosed the ANI thread. It makes sense that undoing the damage from the mass rollbacks isn't within the remit of the forum and that the discussion was moving toward off-topic content matters, but I don't feel that all the conduct aspects have been fully resolved. The direction the discussion seemed to be going in was (A) a bit of a boomerang for the filer for leaving out vital context, and (B) an explicit acknowledgement that the initial close was premature and reflected a consensus that would not likely have formed had the participants been properly informed, and that the two actions taken as part of the close should thus be undone as fruit of the poisoned tree. I don't care much about the boomerang part since I don't hold any malice toward the participants (although I do think it's important to send a message that filing misleading ANI reports won't allow one to get their way), but the current state of things seems like it would have the effect of making the initial uninformed close unduly "sticky":

• I'm left with a large portion of all the template edits I've ever made (reflecting dozens of hours of work) undone, and only a small fraction of those have been restored so far. I have no explicit permission to undo the rollbacks unrelated to the wrapperfications, so to avoid edit warring I would have to go through hundreds of talk pages and dozens of deleted page restorations. JzG's brief reply on his talk page has not put me at ease that he understands the scale of the damage from his rollback and will be willing to clean up the mess.
• The initial close remains in the sidebox, giving the impression to anyone skimming the thread that I erred grievously and got my template rights yanked for it, rather than what I would consider a fairer assessment supported by the informed second half of the discussion (from L235 and others) that I acted slightly too boldly in a way that could have easily been resolved through normal discussion, but that the actions of others blew the situation massively out of proportion.
• I'm left without the template editor toolset, which I don't think would have been hastily revoked had a misleading report not been filed, and which I still feel prepared to make responsible use of (I'll certainly be even more cautious going forward).

Would you be willing to adjust your close to make it clearer what happened in the course of the discussion, and to overturn the actions taken due to the initial uninformed close? This whole ordeal has been incredibly taxing (to the extent that it's giving me thoughts of wikibreak/retirement that I've never had before), and I hope it will be possible to bring it to a resolution as non-disruptive as possible. Thanks for your attention to this. Regards, {{u|Sdkb}}  06:04, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Sdkb, you raise some fair points and I will reverse my close. However, if you think further discussion is going to achieve all of what you hope for I think you're setup for disappointment. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:34, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. My hope is that a status quo outcome is reasonable to expect for a matter that should not have been brought to ANI in the first place, but I guess we'll see. I'm not sure what the proper linking protocol is, but it would be helpful if the next closer could read this conversation to take into consideration as they make their close. {{u|Sdkb}}  19:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

question

hello, Im writing because the 'workshop' phase for Arbcom has finished, however multiple editors are continuing on its talk page, I don't feel comfortable engaging these individuals since the case in now waiting decision, what do I do? they are pinging me?--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 16:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Ozzie10aaaa, well you have several options. The first is to just say nothing. Just because someone pings you does not mean you have an obligation to respond - there is no form of WP:ADMINACCT in play with you in this situation. A second option, and the one I would encourage you to consider, is making a statement there saying something like you said here ("I see I've been pinged but I don't intend to respond as I would like to wait to see what ArbCom says"). Or obviously you could decide to reconsider and reply (not pressuring you just noting it as an option). Hope that helps. Let me know if you have further questions or would like to talk this out further. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:56, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

thank you --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 16:57, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

CSD

Since you are on I might as well tell you, this draft Draft:Benjamin Cannon seems like a test page could you delete it? Thanks, Signed,The4lines |||| 17:58, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

The4lines, done. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:00, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Signed,The4lines |||| 18:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Inquiry regarding preemptive archiving

Hello,

I recently had several of my edits reverted by a rollbacker who claimed using the Internet Archive bot to preemptively archive and tag links was prohibited, however that appears to directly contradict the guidance provided in Misplaced Pages:Link_rot, which clearly encourages the practice. I was wondering if you could provide any clarification on this.

- Thanks

@XPEric: what is the article? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:07, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: There were several, one of which is Bletchley Park. Thanks, XPEric (talk) 02:12, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the article link XPEric. Have you discussed it with Dr.K somewhere? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:14, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I was going to post a new thread on his Talk page, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing obvious before I did that. XPEric (talk) 02:18, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

XPEric, I am not aware of anything obvious you're missing. I'd go for the discussion. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:20, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi Barkeep. I just saw this discussion. The IABot tool is not to be used to store live links because the practice creates undue bloat in the article text. This user was rapidly archiving live links in multiple articles, which is not the way to increase your edit count on this wiki. Dr. K. 02:21, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Dr.K., do you have a link that says more about that? This is new information for me. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:23, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Dr.K. The Misplaced Pages:Link rot guidance explicitly states that active links should be given an "|archive-url=", along with a "|url-status=live". It also mentions to "Run WP:IABOT on pages via its user interface." XPEric (talk) 02:27, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

This is from my experience using the tool and seeing other users reverting storage of live links in articles. As far as I know, storage of live links by the IABot is frowned upon. But, if you don't believe me, I think you should ask at WP:VP Technical for clarification. Dr. K. 02:30, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Dr.K., my experience has been to use it in the ways that seem (at least tacitly if not fully) endorsed by WP:LR. A Village Pump discussion seems like an appropriate place to gather further opinions and insights. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:32, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Barkeep, I think that archiving live links en mass in articles with many references will create chaos. But I agree with you on asking at VP. Dr. K. 02:35, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Dr.K., that seems off to me -- I archive live links all the time (mostly when cleaning bare urls). Mdaniels5757 (talk) 02:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

We are talking about use of the IABot, indiscriminately archiving fully formed live links en masse. Let's ask at VP as I previously said. And no pings please. Dr. K. 02:39, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• I started the thread at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(technical)#Use_of_the_IABot_to_archive_live_links_en_masse. Dr. K. 02:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
• Hi again, Barkeep. On second thought, I'm not sure if the post qualifies for VP Technical. Should we move it to VP Miscellaneous instead? In any case, should you think of a better venue, please move it and I'll find it. Thank you. Dr. K. 03:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

  Dr.K., I just put a neutral notice in a few places. I think VPT makes as much sense as anywhere. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:27, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

  Thanks, Barkeep. After my last reply there, I think that VPT is a good place for that discussion as well. Regards. Dr. K. 04:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Request to undelete article: Kult Awards

This article describes something like the Academy Awards. The article, as it was when deleted, contain a brief descriptive paragraph with the first sentence (promotional in nature) that has been copied from a news site. The rest of the article contained tables with award-recipient lists for every year (ideally). As a new-ish editor I find the speedy deletion to harsh as the only the first sentence appear promotional. Even if the whole paragraph was promotial, that doesn't justify (IMHO) the deletion of the tables which took arguably more effort than the whole first paragraph.

I am willing to work on it and use it as a learning experience if you give me back something to work with.Flamur Kasa (talk) 20:13, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Flamur Kasa,

Tables are difficult. I would recommend using the visual editor to make them. I'm an experienced editor and that's how I make tables. I'm happy to restore the table to your userspace. However, I have to warn you that these awards may not be notable and so could face deletion (though perhaps not speedy deletion) in the future. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Could you please restore the whole article as it was before getting deleted?

As for notable, these are nationwide (Albania) awards with renown artists as a jury. Tons of newspaper cover the ceremony and results and it is shown on TV. What would make them not notable? Flamur Kasa (talk) 22:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Flamur Kasa, the article needed to be fundamentally rewritten to avoid being promotional (which is what G11 says). G11 applies to things in draft or userspace as well so I would suggest rewriting in a neutral manner. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I want to reword the article to a neutral point of view, that is why I want access to it. Put it in a Sandbox or any place else or send it to me in Discord. Over 90% of that article is salvageable so starting from scratch is counterproductive and a waste of time I want to avoid. Flamur Kasa (talk) 10:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Flamur Kasa, WP:G11 deletions are not normally available for refund because they would require a complete rewrite of content to meet our policies. This is the case for Kult Awards (outside of the table). Go back to reliable independent secondary sources and paraphrase what they have to say. That will put your article on better footing. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense for English language topics. This article however was translated, including the two tables. Over 90% of the article is usable as noted before(WP:BATHWATER), that is why I ask access to it in any (permitted way) way instead of starting the translation and editing from scratch. Your questioning of the notability of the subject shows your unfamiliarity with the subject and I can understand that as you can probably not read the sources either (WP:LACK). I would ask to be given a chance to work on that article WP:AQU and extend my contributions to the English Misplaced Pages. I hope to prove the notability of this subject (by greatly extending the number of sources) to your satisfaction. I expected to be motivated by notes where I can improve my work as suggested here as opposed to the complete (speedy) removal of the whole article for the promotional wording of one sentence (the first one). Flamur Kasa (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Flamur Kasa, I understand you're upset. Deletion is upsetting. If there had only been one promotional sentence I would not have deleted the article. Over 90% of the article was not usable. You are correct I am not familiar with the topic - evaluating whether something can be deleted as G11 is different than what I would do if I were examining it for notability. I believe I have acted in accordance with our policies and guidelines (the links above all point to Misplaced Pages:Overzealous deletion which is an important and well-written essay but not actually policy or a guideline). I, in the spirit of ignore all rules restored the table (and there was only 1 table, I just went back to re-check) despite the fact that we don't normally restore G11 deletions. I look forward to reading your revised article on this topic - I hope you write it as we do need non-English language article coverage. But as a content creator myself, as a new page patroller, and as an administrator the previous version was not it. I want to support you as an editor here - truly which is why I pointed out using visual editor for making tables - but need to follow policies and guidelines while doing it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Disappointed, not upset. I respect your decision as senior member here, I have nothing against you - I just find the rule itself counterproductive in this case. I would love to know why the article (besides the first sentence) is not 90% usable and acceptable, that why I asked to get a copy of it - to analyse and learn from my mistakes where present so that I can create better quality articles going forward. I didn't keep a copy of the article - I didn't suspect the article being deleted as I know from the various tags that I have seen that users and articles are given a chance and lead towards improvement. I learned my lesson and will now always keep a copy especially when it involves jargon that is foreign to me and takes considerably more time to translate and adapt. Please let me know if there is any way for me (email, Discord,...) to get a copy of the article (in wikicode) as it was before deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flamur Kasa (talk • contribs) 18:24, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Flamur Kasa, it was words/phrases like best, most widely inclusive, and famous in that version which made it SPAM. If as you work on the draft you have questions about what you've written - and whether or not it would be promotional - feel free to ask me. I have watchlisted the draft and if I see writing that could be a problem I will also let you know. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:22, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

"broken" collapsing

No, I think that was actually correct before you tried to fix it. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:04, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

SarekOfVulcan, why do you say that? the documentation template was even showing that it was wrong. It was collapsing everything after it. Plus the edit notice said that was supposed to be there. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:05, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

When I looked at it the version before you added it, I only saw four comments within the ctop and cbot templates, with two other comments after it. Are you seeing different results?SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:50, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

SarekOfVulcan,are you talking about the ANI thread? If so it's entirely possible I got it wrong - the template itself was broken. If you're talking about the template itself I am pretty sure I got it right. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:51, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Ah. Yes, didn't realize you had made multiple edits - I was referring to the template you added and then removed on ANI.SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

George_Fludyer,_MP

Hi Barkeep49, pls help me to understand - why is George_Fludyer,_MP not a G1 Candidate!? It is obviously nonsense... no refs, no cits, completely confused, virtually without content!? What have I overseen!? CommanderWaterford (talk) 18:44, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

CommanderWaterford, thanks for writing. I considered actually leaving feedback on this directly so I'm glad you asked. G1 is only for incoherent text or gibberish. It does not cover poor writing,. (emphasis added) What's is clearly English. The sentences are run-ons but it is English. Thus it is not eligible for G1 deletion. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:48, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

I see, Thank you - thanks for clarifying.CommanderWaterford (talk) 18:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

AN comments

While your comments are appreciated, I think you would have been within your rights to simply implement a block+standard offer with the additional advanced permission restriction, as I think that the need for closure outweighs the need to find a perfect consensus, and the position you've staked out is pretty close to the discussion's middle ground. _signed, Rosguill 21:54, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Rosguill, I was proposing something a little more subtle. If after X time there is no consensus about a SO appeal, I was proposing that it would default to accept rather than default to decline. If there was consensus at that time against the SO it would be declined and if there was consensus for it would be accepted. But my proposal is in the case of no consensus that it would default to accepted + 1 year of permission restrictions. If I had closed as "No consensus now but can SO appeal in the future" that just sets us up to repeat this conversation which I don't think is helpful and I don't think there is consensus for a SO acceptance now (not the least of which opposition comes from you). And I think any attempt for me to do that in the close would have been a supervote. Hence my decision to comment rather than close. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:04, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Ah I see. I personally don't have any problems with that proposal assuming that the SO is actually followed, and my impression was that other editors opposed to the unblock were open to considering SO, but I do see that you're proposing something more complicated now. _signed, Rosguill 22:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

2020 left sidebar update RfC

Sorry I skipped the closing message because it was on my radar a few days ago when someone mentioned in Signpost comment that sections should be closed and I was going to only close the sections that are WP:SNOWing. OhanaUnited 03:18, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

OhanaUnited, makes sense. I had spent about three hours working on the close this afternoon (including two complete reads of the discussion) and was rather surprised when checking in on my watchlist (and after having finally thought to put a closing banner) that some of the sections would be closed. However, I had posted on the talk page my intention to close it to invite others to join me so I really would welcome you joining us. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:22, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

William S. Farish IV

Greetings. Could you please restore this subject and move to draft space? I'd like to see what was there and if anything should be done with it. There appear to be articles 9n his son, grandson, and horse farm so merging and or redirecting are options. Thanks. FloridaArmy (talk) 15:45, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

FloridaArmy, as I recall I ended up spending a fair amount of time filtering through the various Farish's to determine that the IV was A7able unlike family members mentioned there. Restored to Draft:William S. Farish IV. Good luck with it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:32, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Thabks. Unsourced and I didn't see anything useful or interesting so I redirected to personal life section of his dad where he's mentioned. FloridaArmy (talk) 18:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

FloridaArmy, makes sense. Are you OK with me redeleting rather than letting it linger in Draft space? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:00, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I left the draft under the redirect. Seems possible could become notable in the future. I don't see a need to delwte or salt unless someone tries to restore without new sources. FloridaArmy (talk) 23:02, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Mail

@Utopes: I saw. Sundays tend to be a slow day for me wikiwise and so I might not get to it today. Will get to it promptly though. Thanks and best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #13

Welcome to the thirteenth newsletter from the Growth team!

The Growth team's objective is to work on software changes that help retain new contributors in mid-size Wikimedia projects.

Join the conversation: structured tasks

We are looking for community input on a new project to make it easy for newcomers to make real article edits.

In our previous newsletter, we talked about the productive edits coming from the newcomer tasks feature. Those good results have continued: about 900 newcomers made over 5,000 suggested edits so far. We've learned that newcomers are interested in receiving suggested edits.

Now, we are thinking about how to supply them a feed of easy edits that will help more of them be successful quickly. We have a new idea called "structured tasks". This would aim to break down edits into steps that are easy for newcomers and easy on mobile devices.

In the past, certain kinds of editing tasks have been structured. For instance, adding categories through HotCat. Now, we are thinking about how to structure the editing of articles. The goal is to allow newcomers can make large content additions, especially from their mobile devices.

Please visit the project page and respond to the discussion questions listed on the talk page. You are welcome to show this project to others in your community. You can help by translating the materials to your language so that more voices can join in. We will be having this conversation until June 18.

Expanding to more wikis

We have expanded to six new wikis, and are looking for more interested communities.

In the last two months, we deployed Growth features to six new wikis: Ukrainian, Serbian, Hungarian, Armenian, and Basque Wikipedias, and French Wiktionary. Newcomers from these wikis have already contributed over 600 edits through Growth features.

We want to expand to more wikis in the coming months, and we are looking for interested communities. French Misplaced Pages already agreed and will be the next one to join the experiment. We will contact several other wikis in the coming weeks to offer them to participate.

Do you think the Growth Team features would be a good addition to your wiki? Please see this translatable summary of Growth features. You can share with your communities and start a discussion. Then, please contact us to begin the process!

Other updates

Work continues on improving newcomer tasks and the homepage.

• In March, we deployed an upgrade to the topic matching in newcomer tasks. The current version offers 39 different topics using new ORES models.
• In April, we completed an A/B test of two homepage configurations. We learned that more newcomers will attempt suggested edits if the module is made more prominent. We are implementing those learnings in our next test. See the full results here.
• We are currently working on guidance for newcomer tasks. It will use the help panel to guide newcomers through completing easy edits.
• Our next step is to create new configurations of the homepage. The goal is to encourage more newcomers to begin doing suggested edits.

As usual, we are still welcoming your feedback and questions about our features. Please contact us on the project talk page!

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

14:29, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Sysop unblocking?

Hello Barkeep - saw your user description and wondered if you could help correct an admin error report on me. I have this block record - the one by admin Yamaguchi先生 mistaking me for a school IP, and was immediately reverted. But my block record here shows a block length 1027 days in error. I did go through the back-office code admins who had no immediate remedy and considered it low-priority, and came up empty. Is there a way to clear this? Thanks for any guidance. Following here, with thanks. Zefr (talk) 02:53, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Zefr, unfortunately there's no good way to remove erranous blocks from the log and none in the powers of a sysop (have to go above us to make that happen). They just linger there. Many a good sysop has an accidental block on their record. Sorry that happened to you. Wish I could have been more help. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:55, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the quick reply. Zefr (talk) 03:04, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Renaissance Workshop Company

At the end, everything about the Renaissance Workshop Company has been removed in favour of the Early Music Shop in Saltaire. As usual.

Fortunately, the truth will keep being the truth independently what is stated in the wikipedia.

Kind regards 81.34.79.85 (talk) 20:49, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Edon Molla

Hi Barkeep, Hope all is well!

Just wanted to check why the Edon Molla Misplaced Pages page got deleted? It is pretty important for Edon's Music career that the venues Edon performs have a place to quickly receive his Bio & background information. This has also been very helpful for his conversations with the Media, providing a quick Misplaced Pages link allows reporters to get important detail for their reports and articles. Hope you can assist. Thanks in advance! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Admir.molla (talk • contribs) 16:19, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Admir.molla, hi there. I closed an Articles for Deletion discussion on Molla - you can see that here where the consensus was to delete. You can read that discussion to see what was discussed at that time. I would be happy to answer follow-up questions you might have. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:42, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I read through the discussion board, and no one had any valid points... Just a few people (from the same location, possibly even the same exact person, with separate Ip addresses based on the timing of the messages. May 10-13th... All UTC) "per all criteria in nom. Being friends with a notable singer does not make him notable" one even states knowing that Edon Molla is a "notable singer" does not make him a "notable singer" literally contradicting himself. Others stating "Vanity Page" where there are articles proving he played division 1 Basketball, and played for an Olympic Basketball team. None of which have any real reason to delete a Misplaced Pages page that is over 6 years old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Admir.molla (talk • contribs) 20:25, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Admir.molla: I have a couple thoughts but before we go farther could you tell me what your connection is to Edon Molla? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:45, 21 May 2020 (UTC)