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Add Club World Cup

Add the FIFA Club World Cup to Association Football/Club competitions. It's the club-equivalent to the World Cup, it is one of the most-watched competitions in the sport (though admittedly probably just behind all the current ITN/Rs for it), and we already have several national (Premiere League, La Liga) and continental (UEFA Cup, Copa Libertadores) club competitions listed - why not the biggest of them all? As seen with this year's article and final match article, it's a competition that also produces nice updates with prose and maps and references. Kingsif (talk) 02:52, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

  • Support - Most important football club competition in the world. It may be not "that important" in Europe, but it's very important in Latin America, Asia, Africa and other continents.--SirEdimon (talk) 20:41, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Soccer is plenty represented on ITN/R and I don't see how "club competitions" are of sufficient importance to add because you haven't suggested why "the club-equivalent to the World Cup" merits inclusion. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Muboshgu, we already have club competitions that are theoretically of less importance than this one. Examples that are current ITN/R events already listed above, i.e. the Premiere League, which includes around a dozen English clubs. Kingsif (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
    Kingsif, that doesn't tell me why this would be worth adding. As a comparable example, in baseball, the winners of the club leagues in Australia, China, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan used to face off in the Asia Series. The Japan Series is ITN/R, and the Korean Series has an argument to be added, but the Asia Series had not been considered worthy to even nominate, prior to its dissolution. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:02, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I guess I can say that the Club World Cup symbolizes excellence in association football as well as its management; beyond national ties and certain countries having massive funding for national squads, building a team of the best players and coaching from around the world is arguably a more impressive feat. But, as with all events at ITN, I want people to vote on their view of the significance's merit. Kingsif (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
  • "the Club World Cup symbolizes excellence in association football as well as its management; beyond national ties and certain countries having massive funding for national squads, building a team of the best players..." Doesn't the argument of (relatively) massive funding also apply at club level as well as national, if not more so, particularly for those clubs likely to succeed in this competition? Can't imagine my local suburban club, with almost no funding, ever winning it, no matter how well managed it might be. Countries can't so easily buy players to win the World Cup. HiLo48 (talk) 04:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
You started this thread eight minutes after voting in the ITNC discussion. The connection seems obvious. Calidum 00:16, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
In that comment I literally said (to the effect of) 'where can I start an ITN/R discussion because I'm surprised this isn't there'. That's all there is to it. I suppose you also saw that I didn't nominate the blurb and I have not disputed its position or tried to argue in the ITNC discussion. The "connection" is in your mind alone. ETA: I'm honestly deeply offended that you'd assume from nowhere that I was doing that. Kingsif (talk) 00:22, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
Calidum, you should read WP:AGF.--SirEdimon (talk) 03:42, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't consider the reasoning for some of those ITNC opposes to be relevant here, though. Two are saying there's too much other association football posted, one is per quality. I accept the view, but not the reasoning, based on this. And the ITNC is a separate discussion. Kingsif (talk) 05:30, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I am minded to oppose the current ITN nomination but just held off since it's clearly trending towards no consensus. It certainly does not make sense however to add it to ITNR, since being in ITNR list would be used as argument point in ITNC. Adding articles to ITNR should be in the reverse. Get something regularly nominated/and posted in ITNC with high quality article, then use that to argue for inclusion in ITNR. – Ammarpad (talk) 06:03, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose As much as FIFA would like it to be the most important club competition, it isn't, whether you measure it by viewing figures or media attention. And per Ammarpad, it would need a history of regularly being posted before being added to ITN/R.-- P-K3 (talk) 15:16, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: I agree that it would make no sense to have this as ITNR if it can't win support for an individual nom at ITN, as currently looks like being the case at present. But for future reference, especially when the new 24 team format comes in in 2021, I think the bar is being set too high with comments such as "it would need a history of regularly being posted before being added to ITN/R." If the thing is a success in 2021, and is nominated and posted, then I see no need or justification for having to wait another perhaps 4 to 16 years before having another go at getting it into ITNR. However I will now oppose the current nomination per this comment. Tlhslobus (talk) 17:47, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm not saying it needs to be posted five years in a row to make ITNR, but once or twice would be nice. Calidum 16:23, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
      • I agree with once, but from 1921 it's supposed to become a 4-yearly event, so even twice becomes a long wait, so it seems reasonable to at least allow discussion of adding it to ITNR after the first successful posting. Tlhslobus (talk) 10:38, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per my above comment. Tlhslobus (talk) 17:47, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose unless you want to drop the continental club championships from ITNR in place of the FIFA one in which case I'd support. --LaserLegs (talk) 13:53, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It's effectively a friendly tournament that fans and the media only pays attention to if one of their country's teams wins it. Despite FIFA's attempts to turn the CWC into something significant, it's still far less important than the Champions League or Copa Libertadores. Modest Genius 13:17, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
  • It's not effectively a friendly tournament. All the teams brought their main squad this year, including Liverpool F.C.. It may not be "that important" in Europe, but outside Europe, it's a very important tournament and it's way more important than Libertadores. Flamengo (or any Latin American soccer club) would give their life to win a CWC. This tournament pretty much monopolized the Brazilian press coverage and the conversation among common people in the country. If you think Copa Libertadores is more important than CWC, than you don't know anything about Latin American soccer.--SirEdimon (talk) 01:59, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
I admit I'm not familiar with domestic interest in South America; I'm surprised that they value the new FIFA competition over the long-established continental one. Your logic about first teams is flawed though: Liverpool also played their first team in the FA Community Shield but that doesn't change the fact that English commentators regard it as a "glorified friendly", even if outsiders think it's significant. Modest Genius 17:11, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose a bit of a running joke in most places, a tiny handful of games and only Latin America cares about the result. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 14:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Weak support- As the Club World Cup is actually expanding soon and will be replacing the Confederations Cup, which itself was a borderline major international tournament, it will likely be receiving more attention and coverage in the future and should definitely pass the ITN threshold then. Though I personally believe that it already does meet this threshold and therefore support this nomination, I also wouldn't object to waiting to see if the expanded tournament passes ITN/C first before adding to ITN/R. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 05:42, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Add College Football Playoff National Championship

Major competition in gridiron football. If added, would join America's college basketball championship and at least one university sporting event in another country. pbp 23:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  • Support I'll paraphrase my nomination at ITN/C here. This is one of the major annually recurring sporting events in the U.S. It's been routinely well updated by our editors. Past arguments against posting it have mainly been because it is an amateur competition and that there is no interest outside of North America. The college basketball championship and Boat Race are ITN/R, so obviously we post amateur sporting events. And lack of international impact is irrelevant as ITN items often relate to only one country, or even none at all. As to newsworthiness, there is tons of coverage of this event. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:32, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose I haven't seen this event hit ITN despite being nominated, garnering too many opposes for being not just an event in one country (that's fine) but a sport that relates entirely to one country. The Boat Race, as comparison, is an historic institution - it gets jokes every year but it's the biggest event in rowing. College basketball is at least a sport other countries play, and since the NBA is widely inaccessible, but college basketball can be viewed on free channels in other countries, it has a better argument. Based on the above comments, every British Universities and Colleges Sport event would be eligible at ITN/R, yet none of them are (the Boat Race is not one of them, btw). Kingsif (talk) 00:36, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
    Kingsif, it was (finally) posted this year, which I expect is what prompted the nom here. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:49, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
    Basketball, to be fair, is the most popular sport in China which is the largest country in the world. It's not just a sport that other countries play. It's not even comparable in terms of international appeal to gridiron football. Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:24, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Support it's a major event in the United States and is extensively in the news every year. Lepricavark (talk) 02:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Support Though I do think we'd be better off reducing ITNR sports rather than adding more, this is a glaring omission given the current list. Kingsifs argument above is a great example of the absurdity of opposition to this event every year. We have plenty of ITNR events that are not historic like the Boat Race (World Baseball Classic) or readily available on TV in other countries like college BBall (the Boat Race). People also like to point out that it is amateur or not the top-level, which again does not prevent other events from being ITNR (The Boat Race and the World Baseball Classic, respectively). This is a singular event that really bothers some people for some reason I cannot comprehend. When editors tell me darts and snooker are a really big deal outside the US, I take their word for it. I wish non-American editors would do the same here - this is a really big deal. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:17, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't think it's that non-American editors don't think it's a big deal in the US, but that this is a case of the US vs the Rest of the World; I don't think darts is an important sport, but the example of snooker is that it has players from all over the world except the US, but American football by nature is non-existent except in small clubs outside of the US. So to editors from elsewhere, it seems ridiculous to include something that in their view is so localized and limited. Not to mention that college sports are rarely seen as anything but a hobby in most countries except for basketball, which is probably why US college basketball is available elsewhere. Kingsif (talk) 13:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Support - Any arguments that this event lacks notability as it relates solely to one country are immaterial, as ITN frequently posts items that relate only to one country on a recurring basis - daily, even. If, in a vacuum, the college football championship existed merely as the final stage of an amateur sport, I'd agree with most of the opposition votes that believe it shouldn't be ITN/R. But college football in the U.S. is much, much more than this, and I think that's what most outsiders fail to understand. Besides the fact the championship pulled in monstrous Nielsen ratings (25.5 million viewers on average) not even factoring in streamers and cord-cutters, college football across the country pulls in a monstrous amount of revenue and advertising dollars year-to-year. Many college football coaches are among the highest paid public employees in their states. This is not some amateur pastime. This is a national phenomenon.--WaltCip (talk) 13:53, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
That's what made me oppose: in your words, most outsiders don't understand. At least with other national events, it's a sport or a comparative competition that outsiders do understand. It's not that it's just in one country, it's that it doesn't make sense outside of that country. To maybe make this clearer, see above where there are opposes to the Club World Cup - something the US isn't involved in - because 'only Latin America cares about it' even though major clubs contest it; as a comparative, here only the US cares about it, and no major club competes, so why should this be considered more in the news-worthy than that, besides that most of the people voting are American? Kingsif (talk) 19:43, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
On the contrary, I have no freaking idea how rugby works, or even how cricket works. It is completely foreign to me. Yet, when editors tell me it is a huge deal, I believe them, and the press coverage corroborators that assertion. This is no different. We are not asking for lacross. This is football. Believe us College Football is a religion. In most of the U.S., people watch these games more often than they attend church. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
My point being that most sports are played around the world (except the US, with almost an entirely different set of sports). With such events, even if it's just in one country, people around the world know what it's about and watch it. US sports don't have that luxury; people around the world have at least heard of the Super Bowl, but not a college competition. The world believes the US that this thing is big to them, but mostly doesn't care. Whereas other countries are interested in foreign events in sports they understand. There's also the fact this is effectively a parallel level of competition to the Superbowl, at amateur, which isn't really understood by other countries, because that just doesn't happen - and as I said above, college sports are insignificant in most places, so the whole format of this event is so foreign it can't be seen as notable to anyone outside the US. It may be the only thing in the news in the US it's so important, but it is not on the news anywhere else at all, and never will be. So it's not actually ITN for most people, which needs to be considered. Kingsif (talk) 22:47, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
It does not need to be considered; that argument is a fallacy. "In the news" is not "in the news to an arbitrary cross-section of an international audience across Europe/Australia/wherever". The American award ceremonies like the Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Awards are listed. Aussie football is listed. Canadian football is listed. If anyone were to propose that the latter two should be removed from ITN/R, the hissy fit that would be thrown would be enormous despite them being events of chiefly national importance. You can make the argument that they are listed because they are professional sports, but from the perspective of ITN, the difference between amateur and professional sport is one of perception. And college football is perceived in the US in a manner similar to how many professional sports are perceived in their respective countries. For a measurement of what is "in the news", that is what should matter.--WaltCip (talk) 03:48, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
All those competitions get news coverage in more than one country. The US is big, but it's not the most important. An event from any other country at this level would never be posted if it didn't get some outside news coverage - at ITN it's fine for things to relate to only one country as long as they're sufficiently widely notable, which can be established for an international site like WP by having that foreign coverage. Kingsif (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
"Aussie football is listed." Once. Next? HiLo48 (talk) 21:52, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
To concur with HiLo here; would all these US editors support putting college-level Aussie rules in ITN/R, or on ITN ever? Kingsif (talk) 23:32, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
Yes, if it attained sufficient news coverage. Lepricavark (talk) 04:03, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
It gets news coverage all through the season, in Australia. The same way the only news about college football is in the US. Kingsif (talk) 18:01, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Where's the season article about the massive Aussie rules college competition in Australia that gives the audience of the AFL finals series a run for its money? Howard the Duck (talk) 23:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Not the point, popularity and notability are different parts of criteria. If it were only on how many people watched, the content of ITN would be much different. And of course, globally, college football meets neither. Kingsif (talk) 00:04, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Not Lepricavark, but when you asked (I won't elaborate what was it, it's above), then he said "Yes, if it attained sufficient news coverage." I'd assume "sufficient" meant "AFL finals series-level coverage" sufficient. I wanna know the Aussie rules football college competition that has news coverage as big as the AFL finals series. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:10, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Support – WaltCip said it better than I could. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:13, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose putting amateur university sports on ITNR, which has been discussed many times here and at ITN/C (check the archives). This is not the top level of American football, it's a development youth competition for amateur students. The finalists are not even decided by objective on-field performance, but subjective ratings by a selection committee. I know a lot of Americans watch this, and care deeply about the performance of their alma mater's team, but that does not make it a top level sporting event. I also know it passed ITN/C this year, but I would have opposed that nomination if I had been around at the time. I don't think the Boat Race or college basketball should ever be posted either, for the same reasons. We should keep university sport off ITN. Modest Genius 20:50, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
    But is the main criterion 'top level sporting event'? Wouldn't a better criterion be something like 'event that it is sufficiently in the news'? Lepricavark (talk) 22:46, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
    Given that there can only be a limited number n of ITNR items for each sport, I thought it was fairly obvious that we should select the top n events. A quick glance at the current version of ITNR shows they are, almost without exception, the n top level professional competitions. In the very few cases where an amateur event is listed, it's because there is no professional competition in the sport (e.g. Gaelic football). Modest Genius 11:31, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose This would involve posting two events in the one country for the one sport. It's not a proper competition. And I added the word "Strong" when I saw the attempt to compare this with college basketball. Basketball is a global sport. College basketball attracts dozens of players from all over the world every year. Gridiron not so. So that comparison is just plain wrong and should be simply dismissed. HiLo48 (talk) 22:41, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Internationality is not a requirement for ITN/R. WaltCip (talk) 03:41, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
That wasn't my argument. I was simply pointing out that college basketball and college football are not directly comparable. HiLo48 (talk) 04:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
Your made three arguments in your oppose, all of which apply criteria to this event that is not applied to others. Two events in the one country - Golf has three ITN/R for American events. "But foreigners can participate!" They can and do play football too. Not a lot, but they're there. It's not a proper competition. The Ashes involves the same two teams every time. Parity in college football could be better, but 11 teams have contested the CFP and 4 have won in six years. Gridiron is not a global sport. Neither is rowing. Or Aussie Football. "But they only get one!" So local sports get one, but international sports can get multiples? Where are you finding all these rules? GreatCaesarsGhost 21:21, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
No, I made one argument. It's the sum of what I said that matters, not each fragment individually. Negating each one piece does not negate their sum. This nomination is stretching the envelope. As almost everyone seems to agree, there's a lot of marginal stuff here anyway. We should not be adding more. And where did you get the idea that rowing is not a global sport? It has been in the Olympic Games for most of its modern history. If that doesn't make it global I don't know what does. That's almost an argument of "America isn't interested so it's not global." HiLo48 (talk) 21:46, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose I think my assumed role here as ever is to defend The Boat Race, and as it's often brought up, I'll try to draw some comparisons. We have no rowing ITNRs. The Boat Race features rowers from around the world and is viewed from around the world. We actually have to acknowledge, like it or not, that the Boat Race draws international interest. Literally millions of people around the globe watch the Boat Race. Literally millions of people in the US watch college football. Literally no-one outside college football in the US watches college football. I'm not making any kind of further claim here. But I have no major issue with this being ITNR, other than it's a niche sport played in one country to any level of excellence, and this isn't even close to the "top level" of that sport. As a pledge to 2020, I won't be continuing this divisive discussion, I've made my feelings known so don't expect any further response. Cheers! The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose I have a feeling this will go on, so I'm just putting a stakepost down - we should not be posting amateur events of any sport unless they are recognized as the top level event of that sport. And adding a second American Gridiron sport is inappropriate overloading of a sport that is limited to basically one country (and especially when that country is the US which dominates sourcing coverage). A reason also being pushed to add is based on popularity, which is something we don't generally consider if we're talking about notability. The tournament may be watched by millions, but that doesn't mean it has the same impact as the Super Bowl or other events. --Masem (t) 22:51, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Many editors have raised the 'amateur sporting event' angle with regards to college football, but I'm not sure I've ever seen an explanation for why it matters. How does the amateur/professional distinction impact whether an event is in the news? Lepricavark (talk) 04:03, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Because ITN/R is for events deemed sufficiently notable enough that this criterion can be taken as a pass by default going forward - this should be reserved for the highest/best/most-renowned level in the sport. Add to that, being a college game in particular is undoubtedly one of the reasons why there isn't any news coverage outside of the US. Ignoring that is ignoring the fact Misplaced Pages is international. Basically: the Super Bowl is ITN/R, there's no justification as to why the JV version should be seen as equal. As an aside, if anyone's interested, I saw an article in WSJ about this year's college football championship that mentioned the Boat Race, I don't think it would be that hard to find it again. Kingsif (talk) 04:28, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
  • To categorize the CFP as the JV version of the Super Bowl shows you do not understand the subject at hand. It is a different code, with different participants, different fans, et al. And again this is simply not a concept that is applied to others - the winner of three different European soccer leagues are ITNR, even though they're just JV versions (worse really: just qualifiers) of the Champions League (sarcasm, I guess?). GreatCaesarsGhost 05:37, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Arguably, nearly every senior athlete at the BCS level is vying to be picked up in the draft for the NFL 3 months later after it completes. It is not the typical major/minor level relationship as in baseball, or the idea of regulation/promotion in other sports, and there's nothing official tying them together, but that relationship is there. (and I would generally agree that the country-level tourneys that are preambles to the global one should be removed for the same reasons. --Masem (t) 06:13, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I understand the relationship - I watch and enjoy American football (and still believe in calling it that, the way rugby football , aussie rules football etc. all have the distinction), but both competitions are in the US, and the college one is cared about a lot less. The top competition in the game and the top competition in the country for it are the same thing: the Super Bowl. There is no version in any other country. The minor and lesser competition in the US doesn't warrant being added as well, or every country that plays football would be asking for their second tier or college games to be included. American football is neither widely played nor popular enough to get more than one blurb a year. Kingsif (talk) 17:49, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Support. There is in fact no rule that prohibits amateur sporting events from being posted on ITN and we already include both the NCAA basketball championship and The Boat Race. Calidum 04:34, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Basketball and rowing are global sports. Gridiron is not. Now, before you say we don't consider international impact, that's only if it was the only criticism. It's that, COMBINED with the other issues regarding this event that matter. HiLo48 (talk) 04:42, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
What is the definition on a "global sport?" American football is played on 6 continents. Many of those have very low participation, but then that's the case with a lot of "global sports." Rowing is not huge in Timbuktu. GreatCaesarsGhost 05:37, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Key global sports would be association football (6 continents) and cricket (4), and I'd think rugby would be up there too (this being where there is profession organized play vying for tournaments). The only organized gridiron football league in the US (Canada's version is not considered gridiron football). --Masem (t) 06:54, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
The final 4 teams of the 2019 FIBA Basketball World Cup included an English speaking team (that didn't include the US!), a French speaking team, and 2 Spanish-speaking teams in the final. If you'll include teams eliminated in the quarterfinals, there are teams speaking Serbo-Croatian, Polish and Czech. Compare to the final 8 teams 2019 Rugby World Cup with 6 English speaking teams, 1 French speaking team and the host Japanese, and in the final 4 teams (surely a global game can cough up more than 4 knockout stage teams in its "world cup") of the 2019 Cricket World Cup where all 4 spoke English. It's pretty clear that basketball is a global game. To deny otherwise is like LaserLegs opposing Kobe Bryant's death as a blurb for non-quality reasons. (No opinion in the question of this section though.) Howard the Duck (talk) 23:42, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Basketball is definitely a global sport - in part its an Olympic sport for that reason. I don't think it is as big as assc. football, cricket, or rubgy, but there's good reason to allow more of the championship tourneys to be on ITNR. --Masem (t) 23:55, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict)The argument from the start has been that college basketball is included because of its worldwide popularity, something that college doesn't have. Why does it seem like basketball is being brought up to defend its own position on ITN/R when 1. that's not what this discussion is about, and 2. nobody was challenging it, quite the opposite... Kingsif (talk) 00:04, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Basketball was first raised by those wanting gridiron added here. Those pointing out it's global nature are simply highlighting that gridiron, being exclusive to one country at a serious level, is not comparable with it. HiLo48 (talk) 01:40, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I really won't really give emphasis on what sports are played in the Olympics though. The IOC is a European-centric organization, that's why sports such as baseball, cricket and rugby has/had a hard time joining the Olympics. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Cricket and rugby are European (specifically, English) sports, though. Kingsif (talk) 00:04, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Neither India nor New Zealand are anywhere near England. HiLo48 (talk) 01:40, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
That's right, that's why cricket is having a hard time getting in the Olympics, and rugby had a hard time (the powerful Oceanian block probably turned the tide). Howard the Duck (talk) 01:43, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
When I said "European sports", sports Europeans cared about. Probably like what's in Eurosport in Europe? I dunno. Austria national cricket team exists, but only in English and not German, for example. Compare de:Österreichische Basketballnationalmannschaft. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:14, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
That's a form of begging the question. There's no limit as to how many events of certain types can be considered ITN/R. Indeed, the inclusion of an event on ITN/R does not inherently exclude the inclusion of some other event that may be overlooked due to systemic bias. The burden of responsibility for combating systemic bias lies in seeking out and adding events that would otherwise be overlooked; not denying events that have no shortage of publicity.--WaltCip (talk) 13:23, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
I think there are hardly any overlooked sports events by now. The Sports section at WP:ITNR is the largest among all others, with 30 subsections, where football alone has five varieties. The second-largest "Awards" section has only 5 subsections. So "seeking out and adding events" to combat systemic bias here is not the right choice. We're already quite sports-oriented where amateur-level competitions should be considered with caution. Brandmeister 08:17, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
There's a fair argument to be made there about how large the Sports section is at WP:ITNR compared to others, but again, I don't know where we would set a limit at. Sports events by nature do tend to be recurring, moreso than other categories of events. The Awards section has encountered a lot of resistance to enlarging it with other events that would be considered regional or second-tier. Personally I don't mind including those events, as long as they are frequently updated, and feel it should be grown to at least 10 subsections. I guess the summary of my argument is - if there are limits, where do we set them and how?--WaltCip (talk) 13:44, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
All popular US sports are there (baseball, basketball, American football, ice hockey, rugby, golf) with basically all corresponding major competitions, including one on amateur level. Within nearly two years since the most recent addition to Sports (La Liga and Bundesliga in 2018) nothing has been found and nominated, except this proposed item which is quite young (being around only since 2014, as our article admits). And by my count this item is the second amateur-level competition within one country and the second overall within one national sport. So I think the limit is there for that matter in terms of editorial judgement. Brandmeister 20:27, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Saying the CFP started in 2014 is akin to saying the EPL began in 1992 - technically correct but very misleading. It is a direct successor to prior schemes dating to at least 1998 and perhaps even 1992 (depending on one's perspective). GreatCaesarsGhost 19:32, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose- The CFP is so much less important than the Super Bowl that this would set a precedent for a second-tier event in a sport played only in one country to be guaranteed notability at ITN, which I don't think we have, should, or would do for any analogous event. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 05:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

The results of general elections

Do we need additional clarity on what constitutes "results?" I believe it is ITN/R to post when the voting count/seat allocation is determined. While there have been prior noms where the lack of a majority have inspired a handful of "wait for government to form" votes, the nom for Ireland is next level. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:21, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Didn't one of the low countries take a year and a half to form a government. To keep it simple, we can ITN/R the election, and consider government formations on a case by case. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:29, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Proposed addition: ICC Women's T20 World Cup

With the recent nomination successfully posted, I'm nominating that the ICC Women's T20 World Cup be added to ITN/R alongside the men's variant. (Note: I outlined the previous history of this tournament at ITN during the March 2020 nomination) – Ianblair23 (talk) 13:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC) ​​​​​pinging. – Ianblair23 (talk) 12:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Weak oppose. I'm sympathetic to the desire to post more women's sports, and women's cricket has grown substantially over the last decade. However, media attention remains overwhelmingly on the men's game, and when women's cricket is reported it is usually the Test or ODI formats, which makes sense, as they're more prestigious than T20. The Women's World Cup (ODI, played since the 1970s) certainly attracts enough attention to merit being listed, but the T20 equivalent (began in 2009, only a stand-alone competition since 2018) is much less prominent. Only once has ITN/C approved the women's T20 as a stand-alone story (separate from the men's), and that was this year with only three support !votes. I think I would have opposed if I had been around, both on lack of significance and lack of prose in the article. That's not the successful ITN/C track record we usually require before adding an item to ITNR. I suggest we see how the next couple of stand-alone women's tournaments fare and leave them to ITN/C for now. Modest Genius 12:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)


Proposed substitution: Replace Belmont Stakes with Triple Crown of Thoroughbred Racing (United States)

This is more a clarification than a change, but we should remove Belmont Stakes and replace it with "the winner of the US Triple Crown." The current entry has sparked some debate due to the reordering of the races for 2020. GreatCaesarsGhost 14:39, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

  • The Kentucky Derby is notable on its own and gets attention as the leadoff of the Triple Crown. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we were talking about the Derby and not the Belmont(which is usually last, and had never been first before this year). 331dot (talk) 14:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
  • As for the Triple Crown itself, the Belmont(when last is as typical) is notable if the Triple Crown is at stake- whether the horse in contention wins or not. 331dot (talk) 14:56, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Remove and replace per nom as was the original intent of the discussion in the archives, yet which explicitly did not have consensus before this modification was made back in 2014. The Belmont is not individually notable to ITNR level. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The Belmont is not only notable when the TC is won- its highest attendance was in 2004 when 130,000 watched Smarty Jones lose the TC. I agree the Belmont is not notable when the TC is not at stake. 331dot (talk) 15:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Lots of people watch lots of sporting events. That's not notable enough for ITNR. I'm obviously not suggesting it's not notable per se. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:12, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough. Thank you 331dot (talk) 15:16, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Support this clarification. The intent was to add the Triple Crown to ITNR, which just happened to be awarded at Belmont, not the Belmont race independently. I don't think we should post it unless the Triple Crown is won - near misses aren't significant enough. Modest Genius 15:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
So are we posting the occurrence of the TC or the result? A TC being at stake gets a great deal of attention(more so when it had been awhile since the last winner, but it still does) for merely being at stake. 331dot (talk) 15:18, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Posting the occurrence, not the crystal-balling of it. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
It wouldn't be us doing the crystal balling, but the coverage of the event. 331dot (talk) 15:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The Belmont is more exciting BEFOREHAND when the horse who won the first two contests it. But you are suggesting we post the result (AFTER) when a different horse wins. That is not remotely interesting. GreatCaesarsGhost 16:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
No, I'm saying go back to the original intent, that the Belmont gets posted when and only when it's the third of a successful Triple Crown. Posting events before they happen is never an ITNR consideration. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
We're on the same page, TRM. I was directing that at 331dot, who seemed to be in favor of posting either outcome. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
My reading of it is that the *intent* is that we post the conclusion of the final race when the triple crown is at stake. Won/Lost. If the first two races have different winners, then obviously for the third the TC is not at stake and we dont post it. And if the TC is at stake, there is no point in posting it before the outcome (successful or not) of the third is concluded. Then we post it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I agree although the Kentucky Derby is notable on its own as a race, even if it weren't associated with the TC. 331dot (talk) 17:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes, we have a consensus, albeit from 2010, that we can point to that says the community agrees Kentucky Derby can be ITNR. But we never had one for Belmont. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:18, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I agree with that assessment, and think that there is probably general agreement that winning the TC should be ITNR. It's if the mere occurrence of a TC attempt is ITNR that is at issue here. 331dot (talk) 18:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC)