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Cultural Appropriation
I am noticing alot of the edits for this article are tied to a Commune that is all about cultural appropriation of native legends, and books about that commune are used for the "anti-semitism" claim, Since Will Willoya is an Inuit, and has nothing to do with the New Age Rainbow gathering, and as this IS a Native American Article, we either should add these to the "Rainbow Gatherings" page and not the article that should be information relevant to the Legend of Rainbow Warriors. It seems to be focused on New Age Groups more than any native american legend content. These Rainbow Gathering Edits should be with the group obsessed with cultural appropriation, and that should not bleed onto Native American Articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.165.226 (talk) 13:53, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is there is no real legend here. This seems to be something the two authors made up or at best misinterpreted. It didn't exist before they wrote about it. It's a New Age story. Dougweller (talk) 16:50, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Actually if you read the quote, the "anti-semtism" edge, if the book you quoted was on wikipedia is a weasel word, The writer is attacking the character of writing, and his reasons for "anti Semites" is based on the fact that the Writers of the book held christian beliefs.
As read here, You can clearly see that this is not a well educated or thougth through quote and is selective to try to creep in "anti-white racism" From native New Age Authors, Its grasping for straws, and is like how christians misquote the bible out of context. I would say that this quote is dubious at best and, for an entire book, taking out the only comment on anti-semitism seems to be a deliberate attack on character from Poor logic.
It should remain redacted, as the paranoid opinions of a debunker who is clearly trying to see wrongs in a book where there are none.
With this logic, all Christians who think jewish people who don't accept christ are anti-semetic, which is pretty ridiculous. This is clearly picking quotes that are weasel words to force a narrative on the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.228.117 (talk) 22:35, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Dougweller is correct; this is not a misappropriation of a Native legend; it is a piece of anti-Indigenous propaganda, created by a Christian minister then later adopted by hippies, newagers and non-Native environmentalists. It is one of a long line of fake prophecies that all, in one way or another, claim that the rightful inheritors of the Earth and Native religions are white people. I'm looking through my notes to see if my sources are the same as the ones that have been added. My understanding is that the original version was written by a white Christian minister who was on a mission to the Hopi and/or Navajo. - Slàn, Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- OK, this is the info and cite I have. I don't have the hardcopy of the book here, and the relevant bit is not coming up in the google book preview, but I'll put it here in case anyone has the book at hand: Philip J. Deloria, in the last chapter of Playing Indian, traced the whole Rainbow Warriors claim back to a play written by a Southern Baptist missionary (for a Southern Baptist convention) in the early 60s; it was intended as a story for Christian missionaries to try to use to get Natives to convert. It quickly got picked up by hippies, esp the Rainbow Family. Today you often see the quote used for what it was intended for, to bring converts. The whole rainbow warriors bit gets attributed most often to unnamed Hopi or unnamed Cree. Two of the Greenpeace founders claimed to have distant Native ancestry, and so the quote appealed to them, even naming the Greenpeace ship after it. - Slàn, Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
If this legend was an attempt to evangelize then it would.contain gospel, and it does not. Also he talks about reincarnation, which evangelical Christians do not believe in. BeckaBoo78 (talk) 12:06, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
This whole definition written about the rainbow warriors is a very biased as if it were written by a hippie hating republican — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dabudage (talk • contribs) 16:12, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Doug Weiler stating that "there is no legend there" is an assertion that requires research and citations, in the absence of which is pure fallacy and distortion. Deloria´s thesis the same, in light of Black´s 2014 article´s mere implications. Editorialization by evangelicals does not mean fictionalization, but merely raises possibilities that require scholarly depth of research. Until Native prophecy is exhausted and diverse quotes like Black´s systematically examined, it is even more likely that cooptation occurred. Black´s 2014 article at Ancient-Origins is excellent simply in establishing that basic dynamic by citing three or four potential tribal parallels. Cooptation, moreover, does not invalidate the existence of the original material that is coopted. Greenpeacemst (talk) 00:25, 10 July 2020 (UTC)Mark CR Monteiro
Untitled
The prose is dry and the sources are rudely comingled with the text, but I have started a sufficient first draft. This legend was retold as fact both in the Rainbow Gatherings article and in the article about the Greenpeace ship, so it seemed time to start sorting out the reality of the publishing history involved in this widely circulated folklore. SeeMoreTruth 11:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- I first created this as Legend of a Rainbow Warrior but the legend always refers to plural warriors, so I moved it to this title and made a redirect. This seems a simpler treatment than creating Rainbow Warriors (legend) and having a disambiguation page. SeeMoreTruth 11:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
FF1?
Did the plotline of Final fantasy 1 draw fro this?
"Plankholder"?
Koro Neil (talk) 00:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
"Fact Check"
This article is very misinformed and misleading. The book, "Warriors of the Rainbow" is still in print and available from Naturegraph Publishing Company of California. This is a very respected publisher with probably more books by Native American authors than any other. The prophecies mentioned in Warriors of the Rainbow are all taken from either published books such as "Black Elk Speaks" or gathered from documented Native American sources. The phrase "Warriors of the Rainbow" is not from any Native American legend or saga but from a dream that Vinson Brown had as a child. His father was a physician and assisted the Oglala Lakota band who had a child very near death. Dr Brown spent several days tending the child until it recovered. When asked what his fee was he said; "I know what you have suffered from my white brothers. It is high time a white man did something for you. There is no fee." The Lakota were quite astonished since one of their most respected elders had recently told them of a dream he had had telling him that the first time a white man would do something kind for his people he must be given their last sacred article - the sacred pipe bag. Vinson saw this bag as a boy and was fascinated with it and asked his father about it. After hearing the story he began having a recurring dream of a great arching bridge with Native Americans of every nation passing by on it in full "regalia". In thinking about it later he came up with the phrase "Warriors of the Rainbow" and many years later used that for the title of the book. Vinson Brown and Willy Willoya are not Christian missionaries, they are members of the Baha'i Faith. This religion believes in the oneness of all religions. That the religions of Native Americans are much more recent in their origins and therefore, by and large, more pure in their fundamental teachings. All religions become intermixed with other cultural norms and deteriorate as power hungry individuals insinuate themselves into the structure. Baha'is honor the foundations of all religions and believe that all are steps in the spiritual education of mankind.
I knew Vinson and his family very well, saw the pipe bag and love the book.
Read the book!
Dave Lea - Fish Creek, WI
Dave Lea (talk) 07:51, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- This is WP:NOTAFORUM and all, but this bit above, "The Lakota were quite astonished since one of their most respected elders had recently told them of a dream he had had telling him that the first time a white man would do something kind for his people he must be given their last sacred article - the sacred pipe bag." Is profoundly offensive and completely untrue. It's shocking that anyone would believe such propaganda. Due to Indigenous religions being outlawed, the ceremonies had to be held in secret for years, so non-Natives were unaware of what was going on, but the elders were not advising the community to give their "last sacred articles" to white people. *smh* The Nations still have their sacred items (except in cases where the people were murdered and their things stolen by invaders) and those who weren't totally colonized still have at least some of their ceremonies. Many of the less-interfered-with Nations still have most of their ceremonies. The things people will believe... - CorbieV☼ 22:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Keeping this article neutral
Misplaced Pages's job is to fairly present both sides of "unsettled topics." We do not have to take either side, and should not. We don't have to attack or defend topics like this. All we have to do is to fairly allow both sides to clearly state their positions, and let our readers decide for themselves. Scott P. (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages articles should follow WP:NPOV and in this case also WP:FRINGE. Specifically, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources". Doug Weller talk 15:21, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Rainbow Family publicity it not WP:RS for anything having to do with the Hopi. The Hopi do not publish their religious beliefs in books or on the Internet, and the Rainbow Family site is only an example of the racist fakelore that group promotes. Racist fakelore is a problem for the cultures it misrepresents. NPOV does not mean we publish fringe misinformation as if it deserves equal weight with actual history and cultural beliefs. - CorbieV ☼ 18:19, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The position that the Willoya/Brown book is an "evangelical tract" does not mean that the prophecy itself is fabricated. John Black´s article from 2014 at the "Ancient Origins" website is not about aliens, but suggests a V. Brown statement about the Hopi origin of the prophecy. Black also gives three or four other quotes of potential legitimate variations. I wish I had the time and resources to get full scholarly depth. As is, the wiki "Legend..." page is an unjustified tract itself for Niman´s anti-evangelism and its simplistic fallacies. Again, evangelical use does not mean the legend is fictional, and Black´s basic references support that possibility. Wiki´s kneejerk classification of the A. O. site is imprudent in this case of clear lack of balanced presentation and contextualization. This is a subject with few apparent resources, and Black´s article makes clear Niman´s exaggerated antagonistic reasoning that itself shows poor scholarship and presumptuously denies Native Am´s prophetic content. Balance the significance and reduce the overstatement of the evangelism and "fakelore." It´s not just substituting outrage for brains, it´s sloppy.Greenpeacemst (talk) 00:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC) Mark CR Monteiro Greenpeacemst — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenpeacemst (talk • contribs) 00:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- The "Ancient Origins" website is not considered a WP:RS as they promote and publish pseudoscientific garbage, any citation to it will be removed. Heiro 15:37, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed. "Ancient Origins" is not WP:RS. It is not sourced to any credible source. It is fringe speculation by hobbyists with no connection to the cultures they are claiming to write about. Speculations about "potential legitimate variations" are wholly inappropriate. These are living cultures, with real people who can speak for themselves, and who do. They have denounced this stuff and don't need people making things up about them. I also think someone with "Greenpeace" in their name may have WP:COI here. - CorbieVreccan ☼ 19:16, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
{{Cleanup rewrite}}
It would be helpful if the tagger would give some reasons and concrete suggestions instead of just a driveby tagging. The lede is written in a slightly unconventional manner, but we have other stable and solid articles that start this way, and the article is solidly sourced for what it is. This article, and others that use this content, have had to be repeatedly cleaned up and rewritten from an attempt to use the 'pedia as a publication outlet for Fakelore. Due to the preponderance of this fakelore in popular culture, and attempts to insert the fakelore and bad sourcing into other articles on the 'pedia, consensus emerged that this article needs to be here, even if it's a bit unusual. Not a lot can be done about the weird sourcing, as so many WP:V "sources" out there (even one we use to demonstrate the problem) not only believe the fakelore, but come here to demonstrate their passionate commitment to it. - CorbieV ☼ 18:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
updating the text "blah, blah, blah"
I have updated the text "blah, blah, blah" to a more comprehensive definition and provided 2 new references.
Before:
"It is said there will be a time when the trees are dying, blah, blah, blah. There will be a tribe of people who come and save the Earth and they will be called the Rainbows."
After:
"It is said there will be a time when the earth is ravaged and the trees and animals are dying. There will be a new tribe of people from many colors, classes, creeds who by their actions and deeds shall make the earth green again and save the Earth. They will be known as the Warriors of the Rainbow."
i have also provided 2 references. please do not revert this back, or please explain why. i have already done this before and I will not hesitate to get a moderator involved in this matter. this is very important. and the text "blah, blah, blah" is an insult not just to Misplaced Pages but the Hopi prophecy itself. please explain your revisions! This is not a personal blog, or website. It is public knowledge distribution network. Oddacon (talk) 19:53, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
- Oddacon, I am a Misplaced Pages administrator here and I have reverted you for these reasons: The Rainbow Family site is not a Reliable Source by Misplaced Pages's standards. It contains the exact misinformation and fakelore this article is debunking. Additionally, the content on that site has not been stable. Therefore, the current sources, the published book and the third-party interview, are preferable. It's fine that the text is a bit shorter. The "blah blah blah" is part of the exact quote. We can cut that bit of the quote if other editors find it objectionable, but it is in the middle of the quote, and that's what the author is saying about this fake prophecy, and it goes to the made-up nature of the fakelore. The fact that you are insisting the fakelore is Hopi indicates you either haven't read the article, or are pushing a POV here. Please read up on how we Identify Reliable Sources here on the 'pedia, and do not edit war. Cheers, - CorbieV ☼ 19:59, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- I'd prefer not to mess with the quote. Doug Weller talk 20:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I understand the exact quote comes from the source that is sited but that quote is the narrator of the story speaking (Michael Niman) not, the actual quote from the hopi prophecy. he is the one quoting the context. Not the actual quote itself. furthermore i do not see why we should not change this. the text within the context is misleading and un-informative. Can we update the text, given there be more reliable sources? Oddacon (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- What sources could be "more reliable"? Warriors of the Rainbow by William Willoya and Vinson Brown perhaps as that seems to be the original version. There is no actual prophecy, this is fakelore. Doug Weller talk 18:08, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
"Fakelore"
@Bloodofox: So, I'm on talk. What? - CorbieV ☼ 18:12, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Following up on this edit (), given that the concept of fakelore was at the time of its proposal and is today generally rejected, it's inappropriate to state its existence as fact. As a result, the current version, which attributes an opinion to its source, is in line with WP:NPOV. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:15, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- My issue is not whether or not the term "fakelore" is used, but rather that it is unequivocal that this is a fabricated bit of propaganda, created with an agenda. Niman addresses that. I think it's worth using the word "fakelore" because he uses it. I also think it's worth keeping the longer text in the fakelore article. But if that's the main issue for you, the word is not something I care about that much. This fake prophecy, however, is a prime example of this phenomenon, and how deeply rooted and far reaching an impact fabrications and forgeries can have in such a short period of time. The external link explores that phenomenon. - CorbieV ☼ 18:22, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with any of that. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- My issue is not whether or not the term "fakelore" is used, but rather that it is unequivocal that this is a fabricated bit of propaganda, created with an agenda. Niman addresses that. I think it's worth using the word "fakelore" because he uses it. I also think it's worth keeping the longer text in the fakelore article. But if that's the main issue for you, the word is not something I care about that much. This fake prophecy, however, is a prime example of this phenomenon, and how deeply rooted and far reaching an impact fabrications and forgeries can have in such a short period of time. The external link explores that phenomenon. - CorbieV ☼ 18:22, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Dr John (Ioannis) Syrigos aka John Black, computer and electrical engineer
He's being quoted above. He's a co-owner of Ancient Origins. "Dr John (Ioannis) Syrigos initially began writing on Ancient Origins under the pen name John Black. He is both a co-owner and co-founder of Ancient Origins. John is a computer & electrical engineer with a PhD in Artificial Intelligence, a lecturer, explorer and researcher.
He has a personal passion for Ancient History, Mythology, Anthropology and Astronomy and in his spare time he investigates these subjects in depth. John currently undertakes expeditions and research in remote areas of Ecuador, where he is currently based, but also throughout South America."
Very nice, but not a reliable source by our criteria. Doug Weller talk 17:19, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed. Not WP:RS for the spiritual or cultural beliefs of any of the Native American cultures that are misrepresented in the various versions of this fakelore tale. The stuff on his site is cobbled together from random message board posts, unsourced personal websites, and other new age and hippie ephemera that have been floating around for years. None of it has any legitimate connection to the various Indigenous cultures they try to attach it to. While it's understandable that there are people who have been told that this fakelore comes from a particular Indigenous culture, I'm afraid they rarely seem open to hearing what the actual traditional people from those cultures have to say about it. - CorbieVreccan ☼ 19:29, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
May I trust folklore sources
The sources are off. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
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