Talk:Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Horse Eye Jack (talk | contribs) at 20:48, 14 August 2020 (→Recent IP edit now has sources). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2 November 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

V of CMF

A sloppy selection of the name: "Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation" :-) - Altenmann >t 17:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

people who got the medal

why aren't they mentioned in the article ?

http://victimsofcommunism.org/mission/history/ names

1999 "Soviet dissident Elena Bonner, Bulgarian Prime Minister Philip Dimitrov, Lithuanian statesman Vytautas Landsbergis, and longtime labor union leader Lane Kirkland"

2003 Vaclav Havel

2005 Pope John Paul II

Looks as if these six people were the only repicients . --Neun-x (talk) 13:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Philosophy section

Philosophy section as iyt stands has no relevnce to the foundation. Yes, the foundation may have philosophy and its goals. But such section must come from sources which specifically discuss foundation. Misplaced Pages already has hundreds of articles about evils of communist ideology, we cannot repeat them in this article. - üser:Altenmann >t 02:10, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Also, "Only socialist countries have achieved the tragic distinction of launching rockets into outer space while millions of their citizens starve to death in famine."ref name="Smith"/" is not "philosophy", but ignorant propaganda bullshitting. Holodomor was in 1930s while rockets were in 1960s. Just the same we may speak about United States as "only capitalist countries launching rockets while genocide of its indigenous population or lynching negroes or not giving voting rights to women" and so on. - üser:Altenmann >t 02:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Recent IP edit now has sources

So maybe it's not a good idea to revert again without discussion. I may have missed something, but it looks more or less right. Doug Weller talk 18:15, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I reverted. The WP:ONUS is on the IP to get consensus for their changes. And given they started without sources, it's clear a POV motivation is here. Those sources will need close analysis for reliability, NPOV, and WP:Due; I am highly skeptical about their changes. By no means is all or even most anti-communism "right wing" or "conservative", and these are clearly being used as snarl words. Even many socialists and other anti-capitalists oppose authoritarian Communism. Crossroads 19:41, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

And I see that the sources were being used in regard to the Black Book of Communism. We are not going to WP:COATRACK this article with one-sided criticism of that book. The sources at that article are clear that the book was praised as well. Crossroads 19:45, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is one of the biggest tent anti-communist organizations around, many of the stakeholders and decision makers are right wing or conservative but many aren’t (for instance the current government of Taiwan). The Black Book of Communism has been debated to death, what we had before the IP’s addition was fair and I echo Crossroads’s coatrack concerns. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, I'll take a look again tomorrow but it's now taking clearly fringe conspiratorial positions or at least it's taken one by blaming COVID deaths on Communism. Doug Weller talk 20:00, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Nobody is suggesting that we use them as a definitive source for anything but I don’t think their position is fringe or conspiratorial. Their logic appears to be that the CCP’s initial coverup and non-transparent governing mechanisms are responsible for turning what should have been a manageable regional cluster into a global pandemic, they then ascribe that specific failure by the CCP to prevent a pandemic to communism at large which is pointy and oversimplified to the point of being a pretty much useless statistic but not technically inaccurate. The first half of that argument (that the CCP’s initial coverup and non-transparent governing mechanisms caused this to turn into a pandemic) is something you will find in the pages of any WP:RS, the only contentious thing is the attribution of the deaths to communism writ large. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Personally I think its a jump too far as theres nothing about health crisis coverups and non-transparent governing mechanisms inherent in communism, examples of both can be found in every system on earth to some extent, and it removes any responsibility for COVID deaths from other governments which I think is inappropriate at a time when so many are struggling to hold their own governments accountable for their response to the pandemic. I don’t see it as advancing any conspiracy theories, although I think it would be fair to characterize the claim writ large as hyperbolic. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:17, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

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