Talk:Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Horse Eye Jack (talk | contribs) at 22:11, 14 August 2020 (→Recent IP edit now has sources). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2 November 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

V of CMF

A sloppy selection of the name: "Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation" :-) - Altenmann >t 17:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

people who got the medal

why aren't they mentioned in the article ?

http://victimsofcommunism.org/mission/history/ names

1999 "Soviet dissident Elena Bonner, Bulgarian Prime Minister Philip Dimitrov, Lithuanian statesman Vytautas Landsbergis, and longtime labor union leader Lane Kirkland"

2003 Vaclav Havel

2005 Pope John Paul II

Looks as if these six people were the only repicients . --Neun-x (talk) 13:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Philosophy section

Philosophy section as iyt stands has no relevnce to the foundation. Yes, the foundation may have philosophy and its goals. But such section must come from sources which specifically discuss foundation. Misplaced Pages already has hundreds of articles about evils of communist ideology, we cannot repeat them in this article. - üser:Altenmann >t 02:10, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Also, "Only socialist countries have achieved the tragic distinction of launching rockets into outer space while millions of their citizens starve to death in famine."ref name="Smith"/" is not "philosophy", but ignorant propaganda bullshitting. Holodomor was in 1930s while rockets were in 1960s. Just the same we may speak about United States as "only capitalist countries launching rockets while genocide of its indigenous population or lynching negroes or not giving voting rights to women" and so on. - üser:Altenmann >t 02:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Recent IP edit now has sources

So maybe it's not a good idea to revert again without discussion. I may have missed something, but it looks more or less right. Doug Weller talk 18:15, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I reverted. The WP:ONUS is on the IP to get consensus for their changes. And given they started without sources, it's clear a POV motivation is here. Those sources will need close analysis for reliability, NPOV, and WP:Due; I am highly skeptical about their changes. By no means is all or even most anti-communism "right wing" or "conservative", and these are clearly being used as snarl words. Even many socialists and other anti-capitalists oppose authoritarian Communism. Crossroads 19:41, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

And I see that the sources were being used in regard to the Black Book of Communism. We are not going to WP:COATRACK this article with one-sided criticism of that book. The sources at that article are clear that the book was praised as well. Crossroads 19:45, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is one of the biggest tent anti-communist organizations around, many of the stakeholders and decision makers are right wing or conservative but many aren’t (for instance the current government of Taiwan). The Black Book of Communism has been debated to death, what we had before the IP’s addition was fair and I echo Crossroads’s coatrack concerns. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, I'll take a look again tomorrow but it's now taking clearly fringe conspiratorial positions or at least it's taken one by blaming COVID deaths on Communism. Doug Weller talk 20:00, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Nobody is suggesting that we use them as a definitive source for anything but I don’t think their position is fringe or conspiratorial. Their logic appears to be that the CCP’s initial coverup and non-transparent governing mechanisms are responsible for turning what should have been a manageable regional cluster into a global pandemic, they then ascribe that specific failure by the CCP to prevent a pandemic to communism at large which is pointy and oversimplified to the point of being a pretty much useless statistic but not technically inaccurate. The first half of that argument (that the CCP’s initial coverup and non-transparent governing mechanisms caused this to turn into a pandemic) is something you will find in the pages of any WP:RS, the only contentious thing is the attribution of the deaths to communism writ large. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Personally I think its a jump too far as theres nothing about health crisis coverups and non-transparent governing mechanisms inherent in communism, examples of both can be found in every system on earth to some extent, and it removes any responsibility for COVID deaths from other governments which I think is inappropriate at a time when so many are struggling to hold their own governments accountable for their response to the pandemic. I don’t see it as advancing any conspiracy theories, although I think it would be fair to characterize the claim writ large as hyperbolic. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:17, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe I missed something but I saw no source for calling this organization "right-wing/conservative". I also don't get the need for adding all these sources when we already link to 'The Black Book of Communism' in the article (and ergo the controversy surrounding the body count). I also don't see the need for bringing out the fact that "historians, scholars, and analysts" have criticized the book.....rather than just noting them as critics here and letting the reader go to the aforementioned page to read deeper as to their background.Rja13ww33 (talk) 20:48, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Greetings, gentlemen. Sorry for not taking part in this discussion earlier. I was busy with other matters before I noticed activity on this talkpage. Anyways, as I was stating earlier in my recent edit summary, while left-leaning individuals may express anti-communism themselves, the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation in particular has never supported any leftist causes, and the Foundation's chairman, Lee Edwards, is a conservative scholar and a distinguished fellow in conservative thought at the Heritage Foundation, a right-wing thinktank in the United States. Other conservative and right-of-centre leadership figures in the VOCMF include Lev Dobriansky (A member of the Republican Party and the Ambassador to the Bahamas under President Ronald Reagan), Paul Hollander (A Hungarian critic of communism and left-wing politics in general), John Kirk Singlaub (A US Major General and founding member of the CIA who criticized President Jimmy Carter's withdrawal of troops from the Korean peninsula and was directly implicated in the Iran-Contra affair), George Weigel (A Catholic conservative activist and supporter of authoritarian regimes), Jack Kemp (A conservative Republican and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development under President George H.W. Bush), Sali Berisha (A right-wing conservative Albanian politician and former President and Prime Minister), Emil Constantinescu (A centre-right politician and former President of Romania), Mart Laar (A centre-right politician and former Prime Minister of Estonia), Vytautas Landsbergis (A conservative Lithuanian politician and former President of Lithuania), Guntis Ulmanis (A centre-right Latvian politician and former President of Latvia), Armando Valladares (A centre-right Cuban anti-communist activist and supporter of the Contras in Nicaragua), and Lech Walesa (A centre-right Polish politician and former President of Poland). All of these figures are at the very least, right-of-centre, and none of them have endorsed any left-wing organizations or activities. 195.91.48.221 (talk) 21:23, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Lech Walesa was at one point in the 1990s center right, they certainly aren’t anymore though... I’d say they’re endorsing what at least in Poland are considered left-wing organizations or activities . Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Civic Platform (PO) is not a left-wing party though, and it has never been. At best, it is a centre to centre-right liberal conservative political party in support of a free market, the European Union, and slightly more liberal stances on social issues, but by and large, PO is still right-of-centre. And not to mention that being concerned about liberal democracy is not a left-right issue, considering that any position on the political spectrum is capable of authoritarianism. 195.91.48.221 (talk) 21:37, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Where do you see that Lech Walesa is a Civic Platform party member? I’m not saying its not true but its not supported by either the Lech Walesa page, the Civic Platform, nor does it come up in a google search. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 22:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't know that things like opposing a withdraw from Korea (which was opposed by people on both sides on the aisle) or being part of the CIA really reveals someone as right wing. Also, a lot of the foreign (to the United States) politicians you mention fall well outside of the spectrum of American right-wing politics. (Which I assume the basis of the right-wing declaration.) People like Lech Walesa and Guntis Ulmanis couldn't get elected as dog catcher in the GOP at this point (due to their stances on things like labor unions, health care and so on). The common thread among just about everyone you listed is someone who spent a large part of their career fighting communism and/or being victims of it. In any case, it's OR to start labeling this group as "conservatives" or "right-wingers" based on your assessment of their backgrounds. I see no RS on that. It's a relevance issue as well because (as others have pointed out) a wide variety of characters opposed communism during the Cold War (including liberal icons like JFK).Rja13ww33 (talk) 21:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Except that the VOCMF was founded in the 1990s, way beyond JFK and related left-leaning US politicians' lifetimes, and none of them were members or leaders of the Foundation. Once again, we are discussing the listed leadership figures here, not other personas. They are not the topic of this discussion. And Misplaced Pages is a global encyclopedia, not one written from a Americentric perspective. Whether the figures "fall outside of the American political spectrum" (Which is ironically original research in itself) is irrelevant, because in no way did I imply an American basis for such declaration, and they are right-of-centre precisely due to their support for free-market economics (privatization, deregulation, austerity, etc) and socially conservative policies. 195.91.48.221 (talk) 21:53, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

It's still OR. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense (regardless of when it was founded) to label a organization "right-wing" that opposed a philosophy that also attracted opponents in socialist/left-wing politics in other nations as well. (The Labour Party in the UK is a example). Bottom line: you need some RS for this if you want support.....and even then, I question the relevance here. (Although RS would possibly garner support for your POV from others.)Rja13ww33 (talk) 22:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

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