Talk:Second Italo-Senussi War

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Italy C‑class Low‑importance

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Military history: African / European / Italian C‑class

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POV against Italy

I find the article partially POV against Italy. There it is no reference at all to the massacre of Italian military & civilians done by rebels from 1911 to 1915, that created the revenge (against moslem fanatics mainly in Cyrenaica) from Italian authorities after WWI. To have an idea read this:Sciara sciat.

Ho visto in una sola moschea diciassette italiani crocefissi con i corpi ridotti allo stato di cenci sanguinolenti e informi; ma i cui volti serbano ancora le tracce di un'infernale agonia. Si è passata per il collo di questi disgraziati una lunga canna e le braccia riposano su questa canna. Sono stati poi inchiodati al muro e morirono a fuoco lento fra sofferenze inenarrabili. Dipingervi il quadro orrendo di queste carni decomposte che pendono pietosamente sulla muraglia insanguinata, è impossibile. In un angolo un altro corpo è crocefisso ma siccome era quello di un ufficiale si sono raffinate le sue sofferenze. Gli si cucirono gli occhi. Tutti i cadaveri ben inteso erano mutilati evirati in modo indescrivibile e i corpi apparivano gonfie come informe carogne. Ma non è tutto! Nel cimitero di Chui che serviva di rifugio ai turchi e donde tiravano da lontano potemmo vedere un altro spettacolo. Sotto la porta stessa di fronte alle trincee italiane cinque soldati erano stati sepolti fino alle spalle; le teste emergevano dalla sabbia nera del loro sangue: teste orribili a vedersi; vi si leggevano tutte le torture della fame e della sete(Gaston Leroud and the correspondent of Matin -Journal)

TRANSLATION: I saw in one mosque seventeen Italian crucifixed with their bodies reduced to the status of bloody rags and bones, but whose faces still retain traces of hellish agony. It has passed through the neck of these wretched a long barrel and arms resting on this rod. They were then nailed to the wall and died for a slow fire between untold suffering. It is impossible for us to paint the picture of these hideous rotted meat hanging pitifully on the bloody wall. In a corner another body is crucified but as an officer he was to have refined his sufferings. The eyes are stitched. All the bodies were mutilated and castrated; so indescribable was the scene and the bodies appeared swollen as shapeless carrion. But that's not all! In the cemetery of Chui which served as a refuge from the Turks and whence pulled from afar we could see another show. Under the same door in front of the Italian trenches five soldiers had been buried up to his shoulders, their heads emerged from the black sand stained of their blood: heads horrible to behold, and there you could read all the tortures of hunger and thirst (Gaston Leroud and the correspondent of Matin-Journal)

There it is even no reference to the fact that in 1918 happened the flu-epidemy called "Hispaniola", that was the main cause of deaths between civilian arabs in coastal Libya until 1922 (and greatly depopulated Cyrenaica). Why R-41 does not mention anything cruel done against the Italians by the muslim arabs? There it is a huge documentation about it! And don't forget that the spanish flu (and its consequences) continued to kill until 1930.John T.

The devastating damages caused by the Pacification of Libya upon the Arab Libyan population are recognized by many scholarly sources and the Italian government itself. As Prime Minister of Italy, Silvio Berlusconi announced Italy's recognition of war crimes committed by Italy against the Libyan people when Libya was a colony in a 2008 agreement between Italy and Libya. At the signing Prime Minister Berlusconi stated the following quotation: "In this historic document, Italy apologizes for its killing, destruction and repression of the Libyan people during the period of colonial rule." (http://books.google.ca/books?id=cfhcjje8dFYC&pg=PA17&dq=berlusconi+libya&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7VMLT_ydNsPs0gHdoLm2Ag&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=berlusconi%20libya&f=false).Events prior to 1922 about deaths caused by the Spanish Flu have nothing to do with this, this is about an event from 1928 to 1932.--R-41 (talk) 21:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

There is No Such Thing as Pacification

The events that occurred in Libya is nothing but Genocide. Can you publically go out and call the Holocaust "Pacification of Germany"? "Pacification of Jews"?. You cannot because it is morally wrong. The same thing applies to the Libyan people. Just because they are not white, European or Christian it does not make them any lesser human beings than you are.

: Italian war crimes labeled as "Genocide"

Further details about Italian war crimes and genocide

Reference Arabic wiki to see how the the prominent Italian figures in North Africa are detailed as criminals who killed and slaughtered the native populace of Libya.

Fcmsaab89 (talk) 15:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

References

The relevant issue for Misplaced Pages is, what is the common name of the events? If scholarly sources refer to them as the "Pacification of Libya", then that's what we should use as the article title and as the main name to refer to the events by. Further, the policy says to use the common English name of the events, so how they are named at the Arabic wiki isn't really useful for us. Using your analogy of the Holocaust, that is the name by which the events are commonly known; both this article and the article on the Holocaust identify each as a genocide. —C.Fred (talk) 22:44, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Comparing this to the Holocaust makes no sense. The Nazis were aiming at killing every single Jew, and would have done so had they not lost World War II. The Italians aimed at controlling Libya, killing anyone who resisted. Once the local resistance was crushed, did the Italians exterminate all the Libyans? No. How come most of the Libyan population was still alive in 1940? How come the Italians weren't massacring the Libyans in the late 1930s? --2.36.88.253 (talk) 10:40, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

They opened up camps and send people in Libya to fight wars for them. They worked with the nazis to fight wars on Libyan land in ww2. If they had the chance they would if made it like Italy. That is not a war if your in tanks fighting some horse riding people and sending them to camps. They also somehow killed a fourth of the population in Cyrenaica in a war. Cyrenaica is half the entire country. That is a geneocide. AhmedTMM (talk) 18:14, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

That is also irrelevant. Misplaced Pages is not the place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The only question is what English language reliable sources call it, not whether we think it reaches the level of genocide or what we think it should be called.DeCausa (talk) 18:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Many reliable English sources refer to this as a genocide, such as a book referred to as 'Genocide in Libya Shar, a Hidden Colonial History By Ali Abdullatif Ahmida'. That book was reviewed by reliable reviewers such as Noam Chomsky from M.I.T. Many people died in this genocide and it would be rude to not show its full extent.AhmedTMM (talk) 05:56, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion to change the name to Genocide of Libya

All arguments against changing the name hold no value and are inaccurate. One issue you brought up is WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS , but according to the rule "Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements. What we do is find neutral ways of presenting them." That issue holds no value because many reliable sources state this event as a Genocide such as 'Genocide in Libya Shar, a Hidden Colonial History By Ali Abdullatif Ahmida'. That book follows all the requirements to be a reputable source according to Wikipedias rule about reliable sources. The source is also neutral proven by famous reviewers that are reliable such as Noam Chomsky from M.I.T. Therefore I do not see any reason why changing the name breaks any rules. If you want more sources about the book I linked to one is. In most normal day speech people refer to this as a genocide and it confuses people when its called a pacification so they will think its the wrong page, this happened to me. Therefore I see no good reason to not change the name.AhmedTMM (talk) 00:24, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Don’t edit war. You’ll end up blocked. If you are reverted you need to wait until consensus agrees with you before making that change. See WP:CONSENSUS. You can’t unilaterally make the change. You have to wait. There are several problems with your proposal:

It doesn’t make sense in English. In “Genocide of x”, the x has to be a word for a group of people, not an inanimate object such as the name of a country.
You can’t cherry pick one source(even if it is a reliable source) and claim that is the name it should be. The governing Policy is WP:COMMONNAME. It’s what reliable sources generally call the topic. This requires an analysis and debate on this Talk page of what the majority of sources call the topic.
The issue is not whether or not the Italians committed genocide in Libya. That can be the case whatever the name of the the article is. I think even if it is genocide (which I personally agree it is) that is a topic within the broader topic of the overall conflict. For example we would not change the name of Second World War to The Holocaust, even though genocide took place during the Second World War. The article covers aspects that are broader than genocide. I think your energies are much better focussed on adding sourced information as to why it should be considered as genocide rather than superficially changing the name. That would be a much more effective contribution. The war crimes section would benefit from some added paragraphs on that. I wouldn’t object to that section being re-titled ‘Genocide and war crimes’.
From a preliminary review, I don’t think either Pacification or Genocide is the most common description of the entire conflict. Most sources refer to it as a “war” or “conflict” of some type with a reference to “Italian” and “Senussi”. However, once you accept the principle of how this should be done (rather than edit war) I’m happy to get into the detail with you on the sources.

DeCausa (talk) 07:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment: WP:NAMINGCRITERIA / WP:COMMONNAME is the appropriate policy here. The issue is not whether or not the Italians committed genocide in Libya. Pacification and genocide were two aspects of the conflict. A normal convention for naming articles such as this would be "Second Italo-Senussi War" (eg: , Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878), First Boer War‎, Second Congo War‎ etc), but if RS indicate it should be named something else, editors should suggest them for discussion. I believe both the current or the recently moved titles to be ambiguous and neither meets WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. // Timothy :: talk 09:42, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. DeCausa (talk) 10:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment I have this page watchlisted almost solely because the name is so hilariously one sided. What the Europeans chose euphemistically to call pacification all around to world would better be described as ethnic cleansing or genocide in most instances. Its a dated and racist term (I note that regardless of whether or not you want to keep it there is no debate on whether the term is dated and racist), we should do better. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:06, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I don’t necessarily support keeping “Pacification”. I think there are better titles. However, there is, apparently, a misunderstanding that there is somehow a positive spin on the word, probably because it is cognate with words such as “pacify” and it has one meaning of ‘to bring peace’. But it also has a second distinct meaning which is quite separate: it has a specific and technical meaning which is the suppression or crushing of a whole people in revolt. There’s actually an implication of ruthlessness, even brutality, that goes with it. Per Merriam-Webster “the act of forcibly suppressing or eliminating a population considered to be hostile”. There’s nothing positive about it. Nothing about peace. It’s a lack of understanding of the word in the English language to believe that it does not highlight brutality and the effective elimination of a people. But I guess in a dumbed down world all that is irrelevant and half-understandings and ‘pop misunderstandings’ are more important. DeCausa (talk) 19:17, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I actually think its the understanding of Latin drilled into me over tedious years of schooling which leads me to believe that it does not highlight brutality and the effective elimination of a people but thats besides the point. Its not a technical term. Pacification is an euphemism, that language has caught up and added the real meaning to its use as a euphemism as a common definition doesnt make it any less of an euphemism. You're coming off a little overwrought, is what you wrote really what you meant? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, you’re just wrong. Look it up. (Erras. Discere plus.) DeCausa (talk) 19:54, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Please respect WP:CIVILITY and take the knowledge that you're coming off as overwrought to heart rather than resorting to pithy schoolroom taunts. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment I think an article specifically on genocide during this war would be clearly notable and appropriate - such as Genocide during the Second Italo-Senussi War. It's always helpful to remember Misplaced Pages summary style structure where different articles cover topics at different levels of detail, from general to specific. In this case might look something like History of North Africa >>History of Italy in North Africa >> History of Italy and Libia >> Second Italo-Senussi War >> Genocide during the Second Italo-Senussi War. // Timothy :: talk 19:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

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