Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory

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Expanding scope?

I'm glad that at long last this article has been created. It needs to be noted, however, that not everyone who uses the term is buying into the conspiracy theory. So my question is, do we want to expand the article to include the *term* and/or the thing people are referring to by it (if not the conspiracy theory)? St Anselm (talk) 14:41, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources documenting use of the term in other senses? No-one had provided any, prior to the split. Newimpartial (talk) 14:55, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

This is a balanced review that should be in the article; it also mentions the British use of the term. St Anselm (talk) 15:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I think the article distinguishes between the "conspiracy theory" and the "conservative narrative" of people like Peterson. If we are going to mention Peterson, I think we would need to adjust the scope of the article (and move it to Cultural Marxism). St Anselm (talk) 15:53, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

How do you see that as a distinction in the article? I read the "conspiracy theory" and the "conservative narrative" as depicted in that source as essentially the same thing, while the distinction it makes is between those appropriations and actual intellectual movements on the left and in the universities. Newimpartial (talk) 15:58, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

"But beyond its unshakable association with fringe conspiratorial thinkers, the cultural Marxism narrative has another shortcoming...": there's the conspiracy theory of fringe websites, and the "narrative" of conservative intellectuals (which is associated with/based on/inspired by/related to the conspiracy theory). St Anselm (talk) 16:22, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

For the purposes of this article, I think that's a distinction without a difference. If someone blames pronoun choice on "cultural Marxism", for example, their "conservative narrative" hasn't stopped being a conspiracy theory. I think the more relevant distinction the author is making is between "fringe" websites and users of the conservative narrative who may not be obviously Fringe (like Peterson, for example). The conspiracy theory winds through both. Newimpartial (talk) 16:29, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but this (Misplaced Pages) article is weighted towards the far-right, whereas the phrase has (int he last couple of years) become a lot more mainstream than that: e.g. the Washington Times, Tablet,, and the James G. Martin Center for Academic Renewal. To be NPOV, the article must describe these opinions/uses of the term. St Anselm (talk) 18:08, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

That is to say, not everyone accepts that it is a conspiracy theory. St Anselm (talk) 18:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

No amount of public support for QAnon will stop it from being a conspiracy theory. The same is true of the "cultural Marxism" trope. Let's not rehash the 2014 RfC from hell, shall we? Newimpartial (talk) 18:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

But 2014 was a long time ago. Most of the sources are from 2018 or 2019. St Anselm (talk) 18:45, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

The Washington Times and the James G. Martin Center for Academic Renewal are not remotely mainstream (perhaps you've mistaken the Times for the Post?) And all three of those are just opinion-pieces. Those sorts of things have been discussed before and they don't mean anything compared to the massive amounts of high-quality academic and mainstream sourcing describing it as a conspiracy theory. --Aquillion (talk) 19:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, while I am happy to discuss here before inclusion and pursue improved sources, I don't see any serious opposition in the RS to the idea that Jordan Peterson has disseminated the conspiracy theory, and therefore no BLP violation in saying so since it is not a controversial claim. Newimpartial (talk) 15:14, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

We need something more than an opinion piece on thestranger.com. St Anselm (talk) 15:24, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. I have added new text with a proper source. Newimpartial (talk) 16:22, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Alexander Zubatov notes, "I have never heard Peterson make reference to any crazy “conspiracy” in his many rants against cultural Marxism." St Anselm (talk) 18:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Zubatov is not exactly a reliable source on the subject, since his argument is essentially that the conspiracy is real. Newimpartial (talk) 18:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but Zubatov comes up with a different conspiracy theory with different actors (being no longer anti-semitic): "A Far-Right Anti-Semitic Conspiracy Theory Becomes a Mainstream Irritable Gesture". St Anselm (talk) 18:44, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't make him more reliable as a source. Ahem. Newimpartial (talk) 19:19, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 11 September 2020

It has been proposed in this section that Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory be renamed and moved to Cultural Marxism.

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Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory → Cultural Marxism – This article needs to be more general, and cover the use of the term, and the (alleged) theories covered by the term. There are different opinions (especially in the last few years) over the reality of the thing, and focusing purely on the conspiracy theory is POV, as it lumps everyone into the far-right. Notable voices include the Washington Times ("The Cultural Marxist attack on Western society") and Tablet magazine ("Just Because Anti-Semites Talk About ‘Cultural Marxism’ Doesn’t Mean It Isn’t Real"). St Anselm (talk) 18:19, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Question Did you read the RfC that produced the split? The result of that RfC was quite clear, and favoured the current article title. I would suggest waiting a decent interval before proposing a change. If not, then at a minimum all participants in that discussion should be pinged, and a new RfC should be posted, which strikes me as considerable wasted effort and against policy so soon after the last closure. In fact, the creation of this section could be seen as forum shopping, though I doubt it was intended as such.

So my suggestion would be to withdraw this proposal before many electrons are shed. Newimpartial (talk) 18:32, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, and the RfC was mainly focused on getting it out of the Frankfurt School article, which I agree with completely. As one user said, "the conspiracy theory is independently notable from the actual school of thought, and also has very little practically to do with it." It's precisely because the article has been disentangled from the Frankfurt School that we can expand the scope - that would have been totally inappropriate in a section in that article. St Anselm (talk) 18:39, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

No, the other RFC unambiguously considered and rejected the title you are suggesting here. Your unhappiness with that outcome does not allow you to WP:FORUMSHOP by repeatedly posing the question until you get the outcome you want - especially with a flagrantly non-neutral (and therefore patiently nvalid RFC like this one. -Aquillion (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Some did, most did not. The title and scope of the new article were not referred to in the close. St Anselm (talk) 19:24, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Russell Blackford says, "Like other controversial expressions with complex histories (“political correctness” is another that comes to mind), “cultural Marxism” is a term that needs careful unpacking." That's what our article needs to do - unpack the term. St Anselm (talk) 18:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Since no-one else seems motivated to do it: the participants I see in this year's RfC were buidhe, RGloucester, Snowded, LokiTheLiar, The Four Deuces, RecardedByzantian, Newimpartial, Mvbaron, Idealigic, Desmay, Chas. Caltrop, Teishin, and Davide King. If I missed anyone, I promise it was not on purpose. Newimpartial (talk) 19:17, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Invalid RFC / Speedy close. First, this was considered very recently in the previous move RFC, which (contrary to what is stated here) did consider where to place it. But much more importantly, RFCs are required to be neutral. Saying flatly false things like there are different opinions (especially in the last few years) over the reality of the thing (citing, as "evidence", a mere two grindy culture-war opinion pieces from low-quality sources) violates WP:PROFRINGE. Stating a WP:FRINGE position as fact in the RFC statement is a shockingly extreme abuse of the purpose of RFCs. There is no serious debate among high-quality academic sources that this is a conspiracy theory, and the idea that handful of opinion pieces from culture-warrior types could be used to challenge that is absurd and insulting. --Aquillion (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

You misunderstand: this is an RM not an RfC. St Anselm (talk) 19:24, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Speedy close/strongly favor current title. This is a conspiracy theory. The previous RfC was clear that it was a conspiracy theory. The sources are clear that it's a conspiracy theory. I don't see why this proposal even exists. Loki (talk) 19:19, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it's a conspiracy theory. But it's also a term used with a range of meanings beyond that. St Anselm (talk) 19:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose As explain in the previous move discussion, there is no topic other than the conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theorists have found a few obscure examples where authors have put the two words together, but no evidence that any coherent concept existed. The two sources StAnselm presented are both opinion pieces (although the second is labelled as news), and hence not reliable sources. The second article is by Alexander Zubatov, who is a commercial lawyer and right-wing polemicist, not a journalist or political scientist. The reason you have to use terms such as African American, chairperson, LGBTQA+ and LatinX is not because some leftist professors determined this was the best way to overthrow Western civilization. TFD (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

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