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Donald Trump was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones Date Process Result June 2, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed February 12, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed September 18, 2016 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2017 Good article nominee Not listed December 2, 2018 Good article nominee Not listed July 15, 2019 Good article nominee Not listed August 31, 2019 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 29, 2020 Peer review Reviewed Current status: Former good article nominee

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Section sizes Section size for Donald Trump (88 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 9,352 9,352 Early life and education 3,028 3,028 Personal life 19 5,027 Family 1,323 1,323 Health 3,685 3,685 Business career 149 35,770 Real estate 4,555 15,954 Manhattan and Chicago developments 6,168 6,168 Atlantic City casinos 3,610 3,610 Clubs 1,621 1,621 Licensing the Trump name 1,364 1,364 Side ventures 7,323 7,323 Foundation 5,025 5,025 Legal affairs and bankruptcies 2,315 2,315 Wealth 3,640 3,640 Media career 3,452 5,115 The Apprentice and The Celebrity Apprentice 1,663 1,663 Early political aspirations 4,690 4,690 2016 presidential election 18,341 18,341 First presidency (2017–2021) 632 176,824 Early actions 2,743 2,743 Conflicts of interest 3,367 3,367 Domestic policy 20,687 20,687 Race relations 6,411 6,411 Pardons and commutations 2,574 2,574 Immigration 3,112 20,420 Travel ban 4,347 4,347 Family separation at the border 6,269 6,269 Mexico–United States border wall and government shutdown 6,692 6,692 Foreign policy 2,859 35,965 Trade 2,517 2,517 Russia 4,221 4,221 East Asia 21 10,653 China, Hong Kong, Taiwan 4,914 4,914 North Korea 5,718 5,718 Middle East 23 15,715 Afghanistan 3,042 3,042 Israel 2,637 2,637 Saudi Arabia 2,229 2,229 Syria 3,797 3,797 Iran 3,987 3,987 Personnel 8,705 8,705 Judiciary 4,174 4,174 COVID-19 pandemic 291 31,456 Initial response 7,681 7,681 White House Coronavirus Task Force 5,253 5,253 World Health Organization 2,673 2,673 Pressure to abandon pandemic mitigation measures 7,799 7,799 Political pressure on health agencies 2,690 2,690 Outbreak at the White House 2,666 2,666 Effects on the 2020 presidential campaign 2,403 2,403 Investigations 1,079 26,084 Financial 3,111 3,111 Russian election interference 6,491 6,491 FBI Crossfire Hurricane and 2017 counterintelligence investigations 2,573 2,573 Mueller investigation 12,830 12,830 First impeachment 10,208 10,208 Second impeachment 3,398 3,398 2020 presidential election 34 23,711 Loss to Biden 6,907 15,674 Rejection of results 8,767 8,767 January 6 Capitol attack 8,003 8,003 First post-presidency (2021–2025) 5,018 35,763 Business activities 2,382 2,382 Investigations, criminal indictments and convictions, civil lawsuits 547 28,363 FBI investigations 5,703 5,703 Criminal referral by the House January 6 Committee 693 693 State criminal indictments 2,969 2,969 Federal criminal indictments 5,378 5,378 Criminal conviction in the 2016 campaign fraud case 6,618 6,618 Civil lawsuits and judgments 6,455 6,455 2024 presidential election 14,635 14,635 Political practice and rhetoric 7,990 46,268 Racial and gender views 9,377 9,377 Link to hate crimes 3,793 3,793 Conspiracy theories 3,318 3,318 Truthfulness 10,483 10,483 Social media 5,810 5,810 Relationship with the press 5,497 5,497 Assessments 18 6,969 Public image 4,525 4,525 Scholarly 2,426 2,426 Notes 136 136 References 30 30 Works cited 18 11,257 Books 3,217 3,217 Journals 8,022 8,022 External links 5,431 5,431 Total 402,347 402,347

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Highlighted open discussions

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NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 7 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Misplaced Pages's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not preclude bringing up for discussion whether to include media coverage relating to Trump's mental health and fitness. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021) Amended after re-election: After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. (November 2024)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, optionally using its shortcut, WP:TRUMPRCB.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

COVID-19 in the lead? (take 69)

This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived.

In the lead section at "working to overturn Obamacare", please replace colloquial "Obamacare" with "the Affordable Care Act" 0x004d (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to changing it to its formal name as we have done in the body of the article (Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Obamacare)), but I would first like to see what other editors think about it. - MrX 🖋 01:01, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Here's the sentence in question:

Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic, initially ignoring health recommendations from officials in his administration, and then passing false information to the public about treatments, blaming China, and working to overturn Obamacare putting millions of newly unemployed Americans at risk of losing health coverage.

I really don't like the way this sentence is worded. It would be better like this:

Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic, initially ignoring health recommendations from officials in his administration, and then passing false information to the public about treatments, blaming China, and putting millions of newly unemployed Americans at risk of losing health coverage by working to overturn the Affordable Care Act.

-- Scjessey (talk) 01:29, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Sounds about right to me 2600:1702:2340:9470:AC44:28A1:B377:F8E6 (talk) 01:33, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I'd be OK with that change. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:42, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

That's fine with me too. - MrX 🖋 02:13, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Support and changed. With a link to Affordable Care Act. starship.paint (talk) 04:13, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• Not ok. Pure SYNTH of cobbled together items. Its should always be written neutrally if possible so...

Critics have claimed that Trump did not react rapidly enough to reduce the spread of the virus and that he ignored some of the health advisor's warnings. Critics have also claimed that Trump passed along false information about the virus, overemphasizing Chinese culpability.

I would leave out the last item entirely as he is by far not the only proponent of efforts to overturn the Affordable Care Act. I know they exist so can we see the references to back up all this? MrX added (maybe this was in earlier?) here with zero supporting references.--MONGO (talk) 04:17, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@MONGO: - there's no need to say "critics" when the reliable sources themselves are saying so. starship.paint (talk) 04:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Starship.paint. Attribution to an imaginary group is not justifiable. It is an objective fact that Trump has lied and bumbled his way through this crisis. If I'm wrong, the case will have to be made by showing that a preponderance of current sources make these same attributions. - MrX 🖋 11:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Starship.paint Thank you for collapsing that, but nope this cherry-picking google only shows that gives situation is unclear result - it included (a) “government slow”, as in Congress etc not “Trump”, and (b) demonstrated “critics” claim this, plus (c) did not consider the RS saying otherwise. Such as it being a mix of good and bad - e.g. Politifact saying “slow” is incorrect or BBC descriptions of things gotten right and wrong. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Acknowledging the debate over the inclusion of COVID-19 info in the lead section, I believe that "blaming China" lacks specificity and formality. Should the section be reinstated, something like "criticizing the Chinese government's response to the outbreak" or "blaming the Chinese government for their response to the outbreak" would be more appropriate -- 0x004d (talk) 05:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Those are fair points, but Trump has been blaming China from the beginning. I agree it lacks formality. As for specificity, it's not just that he blamed them for their response, but also that he blamed them for the virus and that he signaled white supremacists in his base by referring to it as the China virus. If there is a succinct way of saying while also being specific, it eludes me. I guess we could leave it out of the lead since it really only has moderate impact compared to everything else (except Jerusalem and DPRK). - MrX 🖋 10:55, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

user:MrX Factual false bits there. Trump has praised, then criticised, and then praised China’s response. And “blame” ... well that’s only some of the later comments but generally considered true, yes? And naming “China virus” initially was common until it was worldwide and Beijing objected — and later can be tied to politically blaming China as much as this theory of him being racist (like his granddaughter doesn’t have a Chinese nanny and speaks Chinese) or it being some supremacist secret handshake. Just stick to the article for LEAD discussions, and skip outside partisan stuff, OK? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Markbassett: Yes, generally Trump has oscillated between adoration and condemnation of China, but I'm not aware he has ever really praised their handling of the pandemic. The virus was originally referred to as the Wuhan virus, as far as I remember. It seems so long ago... - MrX 🖋 18:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

user:MrX ??? Not hard to find - googling for ‘coronavirus trump initially praised china’ got me Politico 15 times Trump praised China, CNN The many times Trump praised Bejing, Chicago Tribune Praise, criticism, praise again, Trump praises Xi, Trump hopes you forget he praised China, ... Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:27, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I have removed the recently-added COVID-19 reaction in lead section, per two recent RfCs that both reached no consensus. Please do not restore until another discussion reaches a positive consensus. — JFG 04:34, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Within the next hour User:SPECIFICO restored this new text, in violation of two RfC outcomes, while citing the irrelevant WP:SKYBLUE essay. I can't revert because of 1RR, but I request that admins evaluate the situation. Pinging closers TonyBallioni and S Marshall, and admin regulars on this article Awilley, MelanieN and Muboshgu. — JFG 05:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm stunned that you would still oppose this JFG, but both RfCs from 6 weeks ago resulted in no consensus. You can't "violate" a no consensus outcome. Trump has been the subject of continuous worldwide coverage for his handing of the pandemic for months. The GOP has tied themselves in knots over it. His re-election prospects are declining as a direct result of it. 135,000 American have died on Markbassett (talk) 02:27, 13 July 2020 (UTC)Trump's watch! Trump owns this because he has ignored the crisis, promoted false cures, blamed the Chinese, blamed Obama, lied, made jokes, held maskless rallies, refused to follow his own health agency's advice, tried to overturn Obamacare, roused his base with glorious visions of confederate flags, and failed to invoke life saving policies. Is this "Still an ongoing story, and not specific to USA or Trump."? Are you standing by your claim that "Pandemic data from various countries shows similar outcomes..."? Are you not aware that the U.S. has 5% of the world population and about 25% of the cases and deaths? As I said, I'm stunned, and a bit appalled that I even have to explain this. - MrX 🖋 10:48, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

in violation of two RfC outcomes. Umm, how can you violate a no consensus rfc? - Harsh (talk) 12:12, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Very simply: in a "no consensus" situation affirmed by RfC, the status quo ante prevails. Quoting from our WP:NOCON policy:

In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit.

In this particular instance, that means not mentioning the pandemic in the lead section. The first RfC about this topic reached a "no consensus" outcome on 22 May 2020. A few days later, the situation was debated again in an attempt to establish consensus, and a second RfC was closed with this assessment:

This RfC doesn't reach a consensus about whether to mention coronavirus in the lead of Trump's article. It also doesn't reach a consensus about what to say if we did mention it.

Ignoring this outcome, User:MrX boldly added COVID-19 content to the lead section just four days after the RfC close. Then User:SPECIFICO re-instated the content after I had reverted it. Irrespective of any dispute about the content itself, those are in my opinion serious violations of Misplaced Pages process, unbecoming of those experienced editors. — JFG 05:53, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Responding to ping, in my opinion two no-consensus RfCs doesn't mean it can't be mentioned in the Lead, but suggests that the best path forward will be trying to find a compromise. That's best done, in my opinion, through a combination of editing and discussion, and is rarely helped along by straight up reverts (removals and reinstatements). Partial reverts are good, smaller refinements are better. It looks like this may be resolved by vote in the next section below, but I disagree with the premise that you must have agreement on an exact wording before it goes in. You just have to have something palatable enough to both sides so it will stick long enough to be tweaked and refined further. The original "version 1" was too POV and a bit SYNTHy. MelanieN's version seems like enough of a compromise that it gives people a good starting point for further tweaks. ~Awilley (talk) 23:08, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Well for future reference, according to WP:NOCON policy, In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it. We cannot keep having RfCs and Surveys hoping to wear down editors/participation to get a desired outcome. _Talk 📧 15:32, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

A good point. We should have RfCs and surveys where appropriate, but if they come to no consensus then we just move on like normal people instead of trying to wear down participants. --Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 16:05, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

We have to agree and specify the wording before this can go in the lead

I have removed that sentence, pending discussion here and agreement on the wording before it gets readded. Here is the sentence that was recently added and I just removed:

Version 1 Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic, initially ignoring health recommendations from officials in his administration, and then passing false information to the public about treatments, blaming China, and putting millions of newly unemployed Americans at risk of losing health coverage by working to overturn the Affordable Care Act.

Personally I don't think we should mention Obamacare - that is a longstanding position of his unrelated to the pandemic. (Yes, I know I agreed to it above, but I didn't really give it any thought at the time.) So I propose the following modified version:

Version 2 Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic; he issued partial travel bans for China and Europe, but otherwise minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many health recommendations from officials in his administration, and passed false information to the public about unproven treatments and the availability of testing.

Others can propose other versions; please number them and blockquote them. References are not used in the lead but the material must be present and sourced in the article text. Thoughts? -- MelanieN (talk) 19:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• I support version 2 as proposed. I think any references to the ACA and the administration's attempts to dismantle it aren't really germane to the pandemic response for now. If that were to change and there were reliable sources to support it, I'm sure that it's something that we can revisit. OhKayeSierra (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support MelanieN's proposal. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:35, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• MelanieN and Scjessey, I strongly oppose version 2 on the grounds that the mention in the lead of "issued travel bans for China and Europe" as undue weight and potentially misleading to the reader, especially insofar as the proposed text implies that this was some sort of counterpoint to the minimization of the threat. Indirect flights were never banned; Trump imposed the China travel restrictions only after 12 nations had already done so, and from January 1 to April, at least 430,000 people traveled directly from China, including nearly 40,000 people who made the trip after the travel restrictions were imposed, "many with spotty screening." I would instead support a version 3 that deletes this clause but is otherwise the same as Option 2:

Version 3: Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many health recommendations from officials in his administration, and passed false information to the public about unproven treatments and the availability of testing.

Neutrality 20:44, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I would be OK with that. I mainly included the travel bans because that's the one thing he DID do, and he constantly points it out to show he did something. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:49, 10 July 2020 (UTC) (P.S. I remember a comment at the time: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If all you have is a wall, everything looks like an invasion." -- MelanieN (talk) 20:57, 10 July 2020 (UTC) )

@OhKayeSierra and Scjessey: Would you also be OK with Neutrality’s version 3? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. OhKayeSierra (talk) 20:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@Neutrality: @MelanieN:, a thought on the travel bans: From what I've seen the travel bans seem to be a central part of the arguments of people defending Trump's response. A well-written Lead section should be balanced and fair, something that even people with strong political leanings can read and say, "Meh, I suppose that's fair." We don't want half our readers to smile and pat themselves on the back for being right while the other half gets angry about how biased Misplaced Pages is. MONGO's generally a reasonable person. Look as his response below, try to understand his point of view, and then try to meet him half way. There's probably an aspect of WP:DUE to it as well. I suspect that most sources analyzing Trump's response would mention the travel ban, even if only to point out that it wasn't a full ban and that the virus had already arrived anyway. I do understand the concern about calling it a "travel ban" but it could conceivably be called something else like a "partial travel ban" or a "restriction on foreigners entering the U.S." or something like that. ~Awilley (talk) 23:49, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I still think that (even putting aside the factual accuracy issues I raised above) it's not lead-worthy. Most countries in the world had some sort of travel restrictions; that is typical and expected in a global pandemic. And, as a matter of being an encyclopedia, our job is to accurately reflect the noteworthy facts and circumstances with reasonable, appropriate context; it is not to write articles with the intent of making our readers smile or frown (cf. bothsidesism). The correct way to "go halfway" is to explain what occurred in the body of the article, where we have the space to explain matters accurately in two or three sentences, rather than placing inaccurate or misleading text in the lead section. On a highly trafficked article, we should be scrupulous about this. Neutrality 00:12, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

NPOV is not about giving "equal time" to the false claims about travel bans that Trump and his supporters made in the face of near-universal criticism from notable experts and RS analysis. That would be false balance. The travel ban thing was nonsense, debunked and rejected far and wide in the context of the six month U.S. experience. SPECIFICO talk 00:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I actually considered "partial travel ban" as more accurate. I will add it to my Version 2. And Awilley, I hear you about making it balanced. Even though the travel limitations were limited and largely ineffective (since the virus was already here and spreading, we just didn't know it), they are something he did - as opposed to the implication that he did nothing at all. And Neutrality, I disagree that it would be "inaccurate or misleading" to point out that he limited incoming travel from the hotspots. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN: The statement "issued travel bans for China and Europe" is misleading because incoming travel by U.S. nationals and their families from those locations was never restricted. If we wanted to say "imposed partial travel restrictions on foreigners traveling from China and Europe" that would be more accurate (but still inappropriate for the lead section, as this is not one of the most important aspects of Trump's coronavirus activities or of Trump's presidency, let alone Trump's entire life). And even that wording would be imprecise because Hong Kong and Macau were exempt from the ban, and I believe the restrictions on incoming travel from "Europe" applied only to the Schengen Area initially, then also the UK and Ireland, which is not the entirety of Europe. The complexity of the details (and the facts that the travel restrictions were very ineffective) is all the more reason why this ought not to be in the lead section. Neutrality 00:31, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

All of that is covered by the word "partial". -- MelanieN (talk) 00:39, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN: Certainly the inclusion of "partial" is better than any version without "partial," but I still think most readers would be very surprised to read "partial travel ban" and then thereafter find out that after the ban, 40,000 Americans directly traveled from China to the U.S. and nearly 8,000 Chinese nationals and foreign residents of Hong Kong and Macao directly traveled to the U.S., plus probably additional thousands from Europe, plus additional thousands on indirect flights. This July 4 AP article said the "ban" was "more like a sieve." Under these facts, the term "ban," even as modified by "partial," can't really capture the porousness. I also don't think it was one of the most important aspects of Trump's presidency, let alone his entire life. Neutrality 01:54, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I would support version 3. Also I have some affinity for the modified version 3 below (although I would edit it slightly). -- Scjessey (talk) 13:47, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I support version 1 as it is more comprehensive..therefore more accurate..there is nothing in it that isn`t true 107.217.84.95 (talk) 21:42, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose all Not sure why we are only emphasizing the negative, always. Trump restricted travel from China before South Korea did and at the same time as 36 other countries did, but after other countries already had a few days to a week prior and the WHO did not even state this was a world health emergency until 1/30. The timing of the travel restrictions is midway between all. Trump used the War Powers Act (perhaps not as fast as he should have) to force manufacturers to produce more PPE. While slower than one would have liked, the US has now tested many more citizens than any other country per million residents except a few. Its important to note that many countries leadership did not do all they could have in retrospect.. No doubt the Trump adminstration could have done more and sooner. Each of the above choices are playing pin the tail on the donkey without an analysis of whether the Trump administration was worse, better or about the same as other world leaders.--MONGO (talk) 22:08, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

We're not emphasizing the negative; we are emphasizing reality. The U.S. is in 23rd place for testing. Trump used the war powers act only after significant hesitation and public pressure to do so, and he used in a very limited way. Hospitals and nursing homes are still getting inadequate PPE supplies, and some are even receiving garbage bag-like PPE without the arm holes! Trump could have done better? How the hell could he have done worse? - MrX 🖋 01:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

The U.S. is in 23rd place for testing Sure about that? The US actually ranks 7th in daily tests per million. The only countries with significantly higher testing rates have very small populations. --Rusf10 (talk) 05:05, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure about that. This source that we have been using throughout our articles covering the pandemic shows the U.S. in 23rd place for tests per 100k people. I'm not certain which part of https://ourworldindata.org/ you are looking at, but the table under the heading 'World map: total tests performed relative to the size of population' shows the U.S. in 15th place for testing, and the source disclaims that it is for "all countries in our dataset" which is different than all countries. The claim "the US has now tested many more citizens than any other country per million residents except a few." is wrong, unless you accept that "few" means "many". - MrX 🖋 15:50, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

My source actually gives you the source they used for every single country. Yours it does for some but others its less clear. And yes I'm looking at the same exact map as you, click on table below the map and you can sort it. Even if we go with your source, almost all of the countries with higher testing are incredibly small. In fact, the total number of tests done by the United States is greater than the total population of all but two of these countries. It not hard to test everyone when your country's total population is roughly 35,000 people.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I looked into this further and it seems that this has already been discussed and the consensus is that your source Worldometers.info is Not Reliable.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:52, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

A consensus of two is not a consensus, but it doesn't matter anyway. Even according the source you cited, the U.S. is not #1 in testing. Not even close. - MrX 🖋 17:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Did you even read the discussion I linked to??? More than two people participated and it was previously discussed here and here. CNN even reported on how unreliable the website is . It is undeniable that it is a flawed website. Also, I never said the US was #1 in testing, so don't put words in my mouth. But no matter how you look at it, its pretty damn close. In fact, if we were to look at total tests rather than tests per capita, one could argue (and again I'm not making that claim) it is #1 with over 41 million tests, unless we include China's likely false claim of over 90 million tests .--Rusf10 (talk) 18:07, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not even a little bit close. Your source doesn't support your claim that China is falsifying their numbers. - MrX 🖋 18:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it does Still, experts have questioned the accuracy of China’s COVID-19 data. It is widely believed that any numbers released by the Chinese government are false. . And will you acknowledge that worldometer.com is not a reliable source? If I see it appear in article space, I will not hesitate to remove it.--Rusf10 (talk) 18:58, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

User:MrX you left out the context of 23rd (now 22nd) “among 214 countries and territories” - so can be said as “roughly top 10%”, or said ‘above average for Western nations’ or ‘somewhere between the U.K. and Canada’... The Covid-19 testing also shows the U.S. as #2 in total tests — all of these are just stating a measure or POV on the data. I don’t mind worldometer per se, as I disagree with excluding reality of POVs exist, but it’s only one POV among many. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• I support version 3 for the WP:DUEWEIGHT reasons cited by Neutrality. My second choice would version 1. Several sources have taken note of Trump's efforts to overturn Obamacare in the middle of a pandemic and economic crisis, but I also understand that it may overemphasize the importance of this piece of information. Awilley, how have you determined that the travel ban is one of Trump's more noteworthy actions in his handling of the pandemic? We should not be trying to achieve a balance for the sake of placating readers. Our task is to represent material in proportion to its coverage in reliable sources. - MrX 🖋 00:36, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

  @MrX: I haven't determined anything. I just have a hard time imagining a high level secondary source discussing Trump's general pandemic response that goes into enough detail to discuss the downplaying, the contradiction of experts, and the misinformation about drugs and tests, but that fails to mention the travel restriction. I can imagine opinion pieces doing that, or secondary sources focusing specifically on more narrow aspects, but those aren't as useful for determ beining weight as broad secondary or tertiary sources. If you know differently that's fine. I've been wrong before. ~Awilley (talk) 01:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

  It would be helpful if you could cite some RS to support you evaluation of WEIGHT wrt the travel bans. I have not seen any mainstream narrative that they were significant, let alone personally bio-noteworthy like e.g. hydroxychloroquine or declining to invoke the emergency production powers or the botched reopening that now sets the US apart from other nations. Could you share sources? SPECIFICO talk 01:54, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I have a problem all options at this point...blaming this on China..the travel bans as well as the issue of trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act all need to be in...however overall the withdraw from the WHO is much more important 2600:1702:2340:9470:69E0:56B7:F967:14AB (talk) 03:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the WHO withdrawal is significant, but it's difficult to cram everything into one sentence, and if we break it up into multiple sentences the lead starts to get unwieldy. - MrX 🖋 15:54, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I think the IP address makes a decent point. Virtually every country in the world adopted some sort of travel restriction, but only one country has taken steps to withdraw from the WHO. If we are going to mention either one in the lead section, the latter seems far more significant than the former, especially given that WHO withdrawal would affect public health far beyond COVID-19. Neutrality 16:17, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support all options, 3 first, then 3-Harsh, then 2, then 1. This is the national crisis of his presidency, with many notable aspects. It is WP:DUE for the lead, and we are way past due not having COVID in. Trump has done much to screw it up, diverging from his own public health officials. starship.paint (talk) 04:42, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose all- The continued attempt to brand Trump a liar by editorializing the lead is unacceptable. The word "false" is used 54 times in this article, but zero times in Obama's article. In Biden's article is is only used twice and one of those times is in reference to something Trump said. This proves that wikipedia selectively "fact checks" since every politician ever has made at least some false statements.--Rusf10 (talk) 04:59, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• False equivalency, Rusf10. - "'We've had presidents that have lied or misled the country, but we've never had a serial liar before. And that's what we're dealing with here,' said Douglas Brinkley, the prominent Rice University presidential historian." Note that we do not brand Trump a liar in the proposed sentences - we merely state that he passed false information. Now, if you're disputing that he has passed false information, there is a list: . starship.paint (talk) 05:27, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

This is not a policy based argument, nor is it based on what the preponderance of sources have written about the subject. I'm confident that it will be rightfully discounted in any evaluation of consensus. - MrX 🖋 12:33, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Not the way things work, my vote doesn't just get ignored because MrX doesn't like it. There is a policy and it's called NPOV, excessive weight has been given to negativity in this article. You're preferred version doesn't even mention the travel bans and asserts Trump "passed false information to the public about unproven treatments" when the effectiveness of hydroxychlroquine is still disputed --Rusf10 (talk) 00:25, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually, if you demonstrate that you are unable to correctly apply NPOV, your view will certainly be discounted. Please review WP:NPOV and consider the discussion of it in this thread above and below. SPECIFICO talk 00:33, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

if you demonstrate that you are unable to correctly apply NPOV Is that a personal attack? I hope not. And who is the arbiter of whether I correctly applied NPOV, you and MrX? I am applying NPOV correctly, those supporting the three options above are not. As per NPOV A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. That is what is being ignored here.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:51, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

That quote is about using neutral wording, not NPOV content. Please read the entire page. SPECIFICO talk 02:00, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• User:Rusf10 Good points, that the word ‘false’ is presented an UNDUE number of times. That WP is giving unequal treatment would need to refer to some standard though for any correction - to determine if it should be less white-washing there or less tar-and-feathers here. Also —- perhaps you would want to present article content about the external view of ‘false’, of it being a POV narrative and unprecedented posturing over nits. WP doesn’t need to say the ‘false’ claims as if that is factual or at all important to BLP - it is also a context of being under partisan attack and biased media coverage. To some extent, having it seems just a partisan talking point - something pushed vaguely in every opportunity, regardless of relevance. To some extent it seems just media infotainment selling to a niche - something done by deeply adversarial New York Times and Washington Post and Toronto Sun. Finer discussion of ‘false’ seems more something for the Presidency article, but the frequency here and wording here deserves extra scrutiny and context if it’s going to be said so, so often. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:44, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose all - The way this text is currently written violates WP:NPOV, like Misplaced Pages is rendering some kind of judgement of his handling of the pandemic, which is entirely inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Obviously COVID should be mentioned in the lead, but written more in a way which summarizes what sources have written about Trump's handling of the pandemic, not passing judgement as it currently is. Just one example, instead of "Trump minimized the threat" write it as "Trump has been accused by health professionals of minimizing the threat" etc. Even just re-wording the sentence like this would help a lot. Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 07:41, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Basil the Bat Lord: - there is no WP:NPOV violation if Misplaced Pages follows the judgment reliable sources. If reliable sources say: “Health professionals accuse Trump of minimising the threat”, it would be a violation if we wrote: “Trump minimised the threat.” But if the reliable sources wrote “Trump minimised the threat”, then there is no WP:NPOV violation. starship.paint (talk) 15:10, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@Basil the Bat Lord: If we are "rendering judgement" that would seem to imply that we are writing things that not found in sources. We do not give attribution when something is widely reported and not seriously contested in other reliable sources, per WP:YESPOV. If there are sources that we should consider that say that Trump has not minimized the threat of COVID-19, would you please point them out? Obviously they should be news sources, not opinion columns. - MrX 🖋 15:31, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@MrX: - the onus would first be on supporters of the content to provide the sources, as I do so below. starship.paint (talk) 02:55, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:ONUS is on those proposing content, and in this case where RS are saying various things - some say slow on this, some say fast on that, some talk about size and not speed... The policy of NPOV is to present all significant POVs in proportion to their WEIGHT in publications, including the right wing ones and the left wing ones. To just pick one POV or message violates NPOV, and is a false representation of events and dialogue. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Having reviewed what the sources say about Trump and the virus, I'd say you would be getting off pretty light with "slow". Have you read our article on Coronavirus in the US? A pretty good NPOV treatment. SPECIFICO talk 21:02, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for hatting all those - but it's a useless list for the NPOV concern. The question is more have you looked at OTHER views and FOR other views, not can you list the cites of the article of the current view. Or whatever that list was. A LEAD position is giving prominence which may be UNDUE prominence per NPOV, and presenting all significant views in DUE proportion means covering both right and left wing. That is not addressed by a list of the existing cites, or whatever that was came from. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Support for option 3, with modification Version 3 (modified) : Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic; he frequently downplayed the threat, ignored or contradicted many health recommendations from experts and officials in his administration including epidemiologist Dr. Anthony Fauci , and passed false information to the public about unproven treatments like hydroxychloroquine, and the availability of testing. - Harsh (talk) 07:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I would support that. Dr. Fauci is a highly respected medical expert. - MrX 🖋 15:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I would also be OK with Version 3 (modified), if others prefer it to the original Version 3. Neutrality 16:19, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Leave out Fauci. This is Trump's biography; there is no reason to name-drop one expert. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:27, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support 1-3 (Harsh's version)-3 (original version)-2 in that order, but any of them would work. The only completely unacceptable options would be omitting it entirely or trying to hedge it. At this point coverage of COVID-19 has come to completely dominate nearly half a year of his presidency, and these versions broadly reflect its tone and content. With regards to people objecting, above, that this summary makes Trump look unduly bad, that's not our call to make - but outside of a relatively tiny bubble of low-quality Trump-loyalist media this is what the vast majority of sources are saying about his pandemic response, and we have to reflect that. Proposed framings like "critics say" are not appropriate when all reliable media is more or less unanimous; it is an WP:NPOV violation to represent facts as opinions. --Aquillion (talk) 08:11, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - see ABC timeline. _Talk 📧 18:50, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm puzzled as to why you would base your argument on a single news article from April 3(!). April 4-30; all of May; all of June; and July 1-11 also happened. Everything that is in each proposed version is readily supported by numerous sources. - MrX 🖋 19:05, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Not only that, the ABC timeline itself states that it is a comparison of how New York and the Trump administration responded to the pandemic during the month of March. So we don't have anything from January or February either. starship.paint (talk) 02:59, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose all - The current wording in the lead section is (in my humble opinion) negative in tone. I accept reliable sources have said Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic and that many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, but the lead doesn't counter-balance any of that with Trump's view of these accusations. I'd prefer either a more concise form of wording in the lead to simply say that Trump has been accused of being slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic or alternatively a brief response from Trump to the accusations. I neither like nor dislike Trump. My concern is that the current wording for the lead in Wiki-voice seems overly negative in tone. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 01:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

  Please review how we define neutrality at WP:NPOV. SPECIFICO talk 01:22, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Yes, I've re-read again the WP:NPOV guidelines and in my humble opinion the current wording for the lead section in Wiki-voice seems overly negative in tone. The only edits in the last three years I've actually made to the Trump article itself have been to provide consistent mdy dates. I know that if I make any edit to provide more balance or to give Trump's response to an accusation it will likely be reverted. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 01:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

A couple of things Kind Tennis Fan. Trump is not reliable source. I should have to even point that out since we an entire article about it. I'm not hearing any "tone" in the proposed text, but would you please point out something specific that is not found in multiple reliable sources? Vague characterization based on your humble opinion are not useful substitutes for our content policies. Let's see your sources. - MrX 🖋 13:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

• The Coronavirus Task Force consisting of medical experts and nonmedical personnel was set up on 1/29. I have seen numerous references that Trump did not act swiftly enough with a travel ban and that had he done so he could have saved many lives. However, the Trump Administration issued the partial travel ban with China on 1/31 even though WHO stated on 1/30 that while this was an international health emergency, that they did not believe there was any need to restrict international travel and trade and Dr. Fauci stated that he believed at that time that the virus was a low risk in the US. I have seen many sources stating that the Trump Administration did not enforce a lockdown as early as it should have, however the Trump Administration was partly reliant on an October 2019 Johns Hopkins study that analyzed 195 countries and the determination by them was the US was the best prepared country in the world to deal with such a situation, and Trump cited this on February 26th., though this was pandemic response ability, and predates COVID19. The WHO did not even declare the coronavirus a global pandemic until 3/11 and the Trump Administration stressed a stay at home mandate on 3/16 and recommended visiting bars, restaurants and gatherings of over 10 persons be eliminated and to work from home if possible. By March 16 there had been only 88 deaths, and while of course tragic, this was still far lower than annual flu fatalities., . On March 16 it was reported that, "While more than 181,000 people have caught the virus around the world, almost half have already recovered, and the vast majority of cases remain mild." Yet the Trump Administration was moving to stress a lockdown not long after the pandemic was declared., .--MONGO (talk) 07:17, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

  @MONGO: - What you did was interpret information from the sources to argue that Trump wasn't slow. However, your personal opinion of whether Trump acted quickly does not trump the sources themselves. The sources say he was slow, on aspects you did not address. (a) Slow to ramp up testing. (b) Slow to quarantine travelers. (c) Slow to implement travel restrictions on countries other than China. (d) Slow on acquiring or making medical supplies. (e) Slow to acknowledge the threat of COVID-19. (f) Slow to wear a mask in public. To defeat sources saying he was slow, you need to provide sources saying he wasn't slow, instead of making your own arguments. starship.paint (talk) 09:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

That's exactly right. WP:OR does not trump WP:V. - MrX 🖋 18:41, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Nobody cares whether he was fast or slow or whatever. The mainstream sources, including reports of numerous opinion polls, medical experts, and government officials say he was and for that matter still is slow. Let's wrap this up, MONGO. SPECIFICO talk 19:23, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, been busy IRL. Will address these issues asap. I gave the dates above to show that those two slow issues mentioned are erroneously reported, as Trump was timely with the known details at those dates.--MONGO (talk) 08:19, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@MONGO: - it is not up to you to prove erroneous reporting. It's up to other reliable sources to prove it, and then you simply provide those other reliable sources which have the proof. starship.paint (talk) 10:48, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• All this talk about the Trump adminstration being slow to distribute testing fails to acknowledge that the CDC wanted to develop its own testing for nationwide distribution and as late as 4/18 the WaPo reported that "Contamination at CDC lab delayed rollout of coronavirus tests". I'm sorry but I do not understand why there is this persistance to ignore other details and assign all blame for the testing kit delays on Donald Trump. Our articles should not be a collection of sticky notes to advocate for a "side". According to the WaPO piece "The troubled segment of the test was not critical to detecting the novel coronavirus, experts said. But after the difficulty emerged, CDC officials took more than a month to remove the unnecessary step from the kits, exacerbating nationwide delays in testing,"--MONGO (talk) 15:29, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

CDC reports to Trump, Mongo. So that is on him. SPECIFICO talk 17:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose all. I'm no fan of Trump, my personal views are quite the opposite. But the sort of opinionated editorializing proposed has no place in a neutral Misplaced Pages article. Saying he was "slow to react" implies that there was some objective path that he should have taken and that it is a proven fact that he didn't take that optimal path. Really though, the choice of what to do in the early days of the pandemic was far from clear - locking down citizens and businesses and closing borders may seem obvious in retrospect, but it was and is highly damaging to the economy and people's livelihoods, so there was always a trade-off involved. The best way to present this sort of information is to attribute the slowness of the response to the reliable sources that have said that rather than stating it in Misplaced Pages voice, while also mentioning counterarguments given by Trump and anyone else, obviously using the typical WP:Due weight to balance the two sides and if there are more sources saying he was slow than that he wasn't then we simply include more of those. Let's stick to reporting verified 3rd party information and leave our private opinions at the door please.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:30, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Amakuru: You seem to be suggesting that we should ignore WP:YESPOV and attribute facts that are not seriously contested in other reliable sources. You refer to "opinionated editorializing", but by whom? Please explain what the other side to injecting disinfectants is and back that up with some sources like Starship.paint has done. What specifically in the any of the proposed versions is "our private opinions"? - MrX 🖋 12:14, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

• Version 4: Trump blamed foreign adversaries and domestic rivals for the crisis caused by the COVID-19 pandemic and said that the virus would disappear as if by magic. He publicly undermined scientists, public health experts, and international institutions, adding to the chaos the pandemic was causing. (Did I leave something out?) And then - off to Walter Reed for a photo op wearing a mask, surrounded by men in full dress uniform. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose all - factually short when it’s saying as if always against when factually he did change; and as if everything slow when some items were fast, and perhaps more importantly some responses have been yuuuuge! Also just not looking to be good summary of article per LEAD, but instead showing wow I could google 10 sites that say X as if that’s impressive. Plus this everything negative negative is just not informative... Say what WAS done, say what WAS opposed say what RESULTED, not just what critics said. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:01, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Markbassett: I'm afraid I don't understand most of that. Do you have an argument that is based on Misplaced Pages policy rather than your own analysis, and would you please back it up with source like Starship.paint did? I'm especially interested in you came up with "critics said". Thank you. - MrX 🖋 14:02, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

user:MrX I already mentioned not following LEAD, the rest ....mmm, saying factually incorrect stuff would be failures of ONUS and/or POV and/or V; saying only selected (negative) items without other items of equal or greater significant coverage would be failure of NPOV. The concern of negative negative complaint list or long runaround to just get to somehow a view being uninformative and seems a failure of ENC and CRITICISM which are only guidance essays and not policy. But it would be nice if we didn’t just dismiss when an article is uninformative and negatives as ‘oh but there’s no actual policy about that’ Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

p.s. as to not understanding the post, well I can try again: I oppose all the offerings stated above, including the existing content, as not a good summary for the subtopic or a summarisation for that part of the article. Whether it is existing text shown in block 1, or the revision block 2 stating it as if overturning Obamacare was started after Covid for the purpose of removing coverage or block 3 stating it as what critics have claimed and solely about the criticsism (as opposed to 1 & 2 stating criticisms as if fact), or block 4 removing travel bans because it seems it gave credit to President Trump, all the offered statements are poor.

In general, I feel it is a factually short portrayal to state things as if President Trump is always against something when his position has changed over time, and it is factually short to declare him slow as if everything is slow and as if that is the only consideration when on some items the response was fast and other qualities of the response such as the quantity or size of response were also important.

Also this is just not looking to be attempting to be a summarisation of the article section. While that section has it's own issues and internal contradictions, that section speaks to the awareness starting circa January 2020, partial travel bans as first response, then initial slowness to do advisors, then the first major bill and declaring National emergency in March, then in April some blame-gaming, then in spring (unclearly stated) urging economic activity to resume, then a sidebar about a 2009 program, and last a bit about Coronavirus briefings winding down after a flap about bleach. Instead the debate iseems diverting into showing someone can google up 10 cites about something ad hoc without any stated relevance to an edit or context of how those cites are found or important or will be used in article text. ---

In short, all these lead proposals seem just dancing away without regard to being encyclopedically informative or portrayling the article. I oppose them all. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment – As the renewed debate above demonstrates, there is obviously still no consensus among editors about, in the words of the RfC closer S Marshall, "whether to mention coronavirus in the lead", and "what to say if we did mention it". Accordingly, I will remove the disputed content on process grounds. No prejudice to later re-instatement if/when a positive consensus for inclusion is reached. — JFG 06:05, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Anyone is free to restore the material. We don't count votes, and the "Oppose all" votes lack any real basis in our content policies, and they are not supported by references. They are almost entirely WP:OR. - MrX 🖋 14:02, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose all we ought to all know by now how Trump is usually reported in the news. It's almost always negative, even from where we stand now looking back to some of the things he did that were the right call. Take a look how it's handled in the Andrew Cuomo lead "Cuomo received national attention for his handling of the Coronavirus pandemic in New York" and in the body there - 3 very short paragraphs. The order directing nursing homes to take Covid patients is the direct cause of death for many thousands. New York City alone has more deaths than CA, FL, TX, LA, MI, and GA COMBINED, but barely a peep about any of that on Cuomo's page. It is not always Trump's fault, and Misplaced Pages doesn't need to be on some mission to say it is. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:04, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Mr Ernie: But do you have an argument that is based on Misplaced Pages policy rather than your own analysis, and would you please back it up with source like Starship.paint did? Thank you. - MrX 🖋 13:56, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah let's try some NPOV on for size and see how it fits. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:06, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

You're arguing against your own position. NPOV is exactly why we have to cover this. It's not a magical incantation that make logic, evidence, reason disappear at will. - MrX 🖋 19:22, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Some of the arguments favoring Trump's COVID-19 response here are just astonishing. Mainstream media overwhelmingly describes the administration's response as being nine kinds of crap. Just look at the charts showing new cases and deaths and compare them with literally any other "first world" country, and it is clear the US response has SUCKED. Now the good name of Fauci is being dragged through the mud because some of the things he said earlier in the crisis were not accurate, despite the fact that it is a GOOD THING for scientists to revise their recommendations as new data comes in. It is almost impossible to overstate how badly the Trump administration has handled COVID-19, and blanket "oppose all" statements not accompanied by reasonable alternatives are absolutely useless to this discussion. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:16, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Scjessey, I'm not sure I follow you with the statistics. If I compare the deaths per million citizens, Belgium, UK, Italy, Sweden, France, and Spain (countries I would consider "first world") all have worse numbers than the USA. Sure raw numbers are higher in the US, but relative to the population it isn't as drastic. The specifically call out the UK, they have ~1/5 the population of the US but ~1/3 of the amount of deaths. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:04, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Mr Ernie: That's because you are looking at the totally of the numbers. Look at the 7-day rolling averages over the last 2 months and note how the number of cases and deaths in the US are increasing (rather alarmingly, in fact), but that is not the case in most other developed countries. Here's a good source: Our World In Data, but there are many others. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Ernie, pictures: charts here. Click on the US and click on Germany, France, Italy and other similar nations. Every day you can find graphs and analysis in the mainstream US media that show that the rest of the "first world" countries have suppressed the surge, while the US is setting new highs daily. Have you read the mainstream coverage of the coronavirus? That is what we are using to write this article and Starship.paint has provided many RS references on the issue. SPECIFICO talk 14:54, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

If people want to read mainstream coverage of the crisis, they can do it on sites that deliver mainstream coverage. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be different from that. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:20, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

WRONG. Misplaced Pages articles rely entirely on reliable sources, and when it comes to politics that means most sources are from the mainstream media. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:44, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose All - Overall too complicated and messy for the lead that gives undue weight to certain aspects. I have no issue mentioning COVID in the lead, just not in such a nakedly POV way. Honestly the section in this article about it could use a lot of work as well. It has way to much trivia and reads like a news of the day ticker. PackMecEng (talk) 04:09, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - it's not exactly impartial. It's true that Trump has made many misleading and false statements - I just looked up the phrase "Trump" on Google and the first two things that come up are News headlines - "America shuts down again: choosing reality of Trump's false claims", and "Trump may be no good at leading America - but he's really, really good at lying". Rather damning search results, and not ones you'd want to see as a President with an election coming up. Nevertheless, the way you phrased it leaves too much room for interpretation: the question is, how MUCH did he contradict health officials and make false statements? And the average reader will look at that and be unsure. Trump could've contradicted health officials only very slightly, once or twice, and you just don't know. I think it's just the general feel - it's too general and thus sounds too biased, and that's not what we're trying to accomplish here. --121.99.126.230 (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Version 3. We stick to what RS say. The content is clearly WP:DUE and WP:NPOV. Focus on the travel bans is undue for the reasons laid out by User:Neutrality. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:14, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose All - Especially since we are talking about the Lead section here. I do not believe the wording "passing false information to the public" is worded in a NPOV way at all. --Malerooster (talk) 17:22, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

• "Passing" is not NPOV? Would it be better "Declaring false information"? "Promoting false information"? How would you correct the wording? SPECIFICO talk 19:08, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

At this point, 14 editors favor including this material and 10 oppose it. Some editors have not given reasons for support or opposition, but I am more concerning that several editors have opposed for reasons that do not seem to be grounded in policy or by making bare assertions without any supporting evidence. - MrX 🖋 17:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Something of course needs be in the lead on this matter but not the wording proposed so far.--MONGO (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I counted 11 to 11 - but it's hard to count when some of the comments are not the traditional bold support or oppose iVotes. Regardless, the number of iVotes shouldn't matter anyway - it's about the weight of the arguments. Based on what I've read, the exclusions carry far more weight considering the reality and who should be held accountable per Politico, NBC, US News, and local CBS news. There are plenty more if needed. _Talk 📧 19:01, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

The concerted effort to omit, when the brief mention accurately reflects long-established consensus article text isn't helping improve the article. The text is back in the article now and it should stay there. Naturally, editors are free to suggest improvements. SPECIFICO talk 19:08, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

The concerted effort to include, when the brief mention does not accurately reflects long-established consensus article text isn't helping improve the article. The text is back out of article now and it should stay out. Naturally, editors are free to suggest improvements. --Malerooster (talk) 21:21, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

There are 15 in favor (with the new comment from FeldBum) and 10 opposed.(BTW, it's not hard to count or evaluate consensus in this discussion). Editors like Amura and Atsme have not responded to good faith requests to substantiate their weak arguments. Contrarily, starship.paint has provided a treasure trove of evidence to support every word of the prosed text in each of its forms. - MrX 🖋 22:07, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Support Version Two. Seems the fairest and most NPOV. --FeldBum (talk) 19:13, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support Version 3, because it's the truth. To omit this information from the lead would violate basically every tenet of Misplaced Pages. Calidum 04:50, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Version 3 per Snooganssnoogans. Mgasparin (talk) 22:59, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Version 3, which is NPOV and gives due weight to the most important things. But support anything, even option 1 (which I think strays into POV territory) over having nothing at all. I know it's hard to reach consensus here, and I think most people here are not intentionally trying to WP:STATUSQUOSTONEWALL, but in aggregate, that's the effect. That we still have nothing in the lead on the defining crisis of Trump's presidency at this point reflects a breakdown in our processes. {{u|Sdkb}} 
• Support version 3. OK with 2 or 1 – Clearly due, neutral, and likely the most important part of his legacy. O3000 (talk) 15:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Mainstream sources for content in dispute

These sources prove that it is perfectly fine for Misplaced Pages to take a negative view of Trump's handling of the pandemic, because that is the same view of the reliable sources. Amakuru - I refer you to the above, there are far more aspects than just locking down citizens and businesses and closing borders. Would you suggest we incorporate all of these sources given that the article's large size has been flagged as an issue? starship.paint (talk) 09:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Excellent work and thank you Starship.paint. This certain undermines all of the "Oppose all" arguments I've seen which can be best summed up as "I don't like it because Trump disagrees, and I'm not taking any questions." - MrX 🖋 12:27, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for folding those, but again - that one can google up ‘some cites say’ for one POV has been done and disproven before. Just google without the filters and the perfect picture falls apart — other views and more facts get in. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:45, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Markbassett: - it's remarkably easy for you to merely claim that I have cherrypicked sources. What's harder is for you to prove that I have indeed cherrypicked. If the POV of my sources is in fact the minority POV, then you should be able to simply match what I did. I provided 15 articles from 11 reliable organizations, covering 6 aspects of Trump's lack of speed during this crisis, you can do the same for Trump's speed - 15 articles, 11 organizations, 6 aspects. This shouldn't be difficult if I actually did cherrypicked sources, you can Just google without the filters, and other views and more facts get in. So, prove it. starship.paint (talk) 10:43, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Starship.paint “cherry picked” is your word, and thank you for collapsing the useless lists. But what you need to respond to is that those failed ONUS because they’re not applied towards anything and because one can google up 10 cites for just about every POV, and it is a bit unusable for the thread to just drop in ‘here are some urls’ without context of how gotten and which proposed wording is intended to be cited for what. We’re not going to give 40 cites for any line chosen, and LEAD really should be from body content and cites not an unrelated score of urls. Just umpteen hits at undefined randomness is basically useless and TLDR. There are billions of links on web - saying a number like 10 or 15 as if that is at all significant is just silly, you need to show something like appearance in all POV publications or WEIGHT in millions for a topic, and explain the phrase it is intended to go to. I can equally turn up URLs for say Fauci praised President Trumps travel ban and travel restrictions. That you did an example (or above several) simply does nothing for DUE or OFFTOPIC or picking which particular hit for relevance and information instead of SENSATION or POV. So show a few million hits and maybe you’ve got DUE. Show it from BBC and not just NYT and maybe you’ve got widely said. Show it actually is part of an impact on President Trumps life and you’ve got BLP instead of OFFTOPIC. But showing me just 10 hits from the usual partisan sources NYT et al.... just isn’t anything. Not even showing enough DUE for a ‘critics said’. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:12, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Markbassett: - you expect WEIGHT in millions, yet you provided only one source, from a source of questionable reliability (see WP:RSP, Townhall is yellow), reporting on a Trump administration member's praise of Trump, on just one aspect of his response. Asking for a few million hits is both nonsensical and unreasonable, because Google hits aren't necessarily reliable sources, and even if they were, I could not possibly check a few million hits for verifiability. Demanding BBC and not just NYT is not even needed, I have the Associated Press, France 24, Kaiser Health News, and NPR. But I will oblige you. Behold, the BBC, as you requested . starship.paint (talk) 09:36, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Starship.paint again you did not get the point -- that this dumping unexplained lists of about 10 cites is unusable and just meaningless. You didn't give context of how that was crafted; or which edit wording it was intended to support; or even if those are cites in this article or the other one or intended to be added somehow. You just dumped a load into TALK. thank you for at least hatting it, but of circa one billion hits in Google finding a dozen for any particular POV does not do anything to show it is significant or that other POVs do not exist. Just say what was the point of the list and how you made it and how you intend it to be used -- and if your answer is to show 'only my view is right' then I'll be glad to come back with ELEVEN cites about other view, or maybe 10 cites to places saying silly stuff like that's a chihuahua on his head or he's really the love child of a werewolf. Again, just dropping 10 urls just doesn't ring as if that's a significant portion let alone as all the POVs. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

p.s. ah. On re-looking -- while I did not say "cherry-picking" about this set of collapsed urls, I must admit that I *did* say it about the earlier list of 6. So I think it is reasonable for you to have thought the concern about that set of urls also applied to the these several herds of urls. At any rate, I would appreciate clarification for any such list -- exactly what is it that we're looking at and what is the editing intent of it. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• How soon we forget: BBC February 1, 2020 - US Health Secretary Alex Azar said "Following the World Health Organization decision, I have today declared that the coronavirus represents a public health emergency in the United States," he told reporters. The information that shows up in a Google search depends on the keywords you use. NYTimes: Surgeon General Urges the Public to Stop Buying Face Masks, NPR: Doctors Say Hospitals Are Stopping Them From Wearing Masks. It goes on and on. _Talk 📧 19:21, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Is there a point to posting these outdated sources? They don't seem to really relate to the discussion at hand. - MrX 🖋 22:17, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

It's particularly funny given that Trump is STILL claiming COVID19 will just "go away" without a vaccine. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Generally running “Oppose all” so now what ?

Things above seem to have gotten lots of pushback and diverging into side topics, so I thought it time to open a subthread looking for the now what...

1. Can we agree that response above is generally or commonly running to “Oppose all”  ?

Not to do the !count thing, it just seems to me..... a lot of oppose “all” (unusually broad), does not seem anywhere near any one proposed line favored or a progress for defining need or approach to a consensus edit on even a part-line tweak.

2. If so, then now what ?

I think the original thread and all proposals are toast, and this one can close soon. But maybe there are some items worth note ? Maybe noting what general LEAD principles are of interest, such as edit body first? Or a side discussion worth spinning a new thread for ?

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:46, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

- - - -

No we cannot. Opposing without stating valid policy based reasons and while refusing to respond to good faith questions does not carry much weight. This is not a vote. On the merits, I believe there is rough consensus for inclusion. By the way, would you PLEASE strive for clarity, brevity, and complete sentences in your comments? Thank you. - MrX 🖋 01:24, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

user:MrX OK, you're being unclear. Was that 'No' for #1 ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:12, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Again..I believe dropping out of the WHO should be a priority 2600:1702:2340:9470:E8B9:764D:AE19:DFE7 (talk) 00:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

No, Mark, "Oppose all" is certainly not a consensus takeaway from the above discussion. You yourself have repeatedly urged against putting anything in the lead, but that does not decide the outcome. Discussants here have not agreed on "oppose all," and the proposed wordings are not "all toast". While you have been opposing everything, a lot of people have been discussing options for the wording with a clear intent that something needs to be in the lead. The massive lists of sources provided above by starship.paint (thoughtfully put under hats so as not to overwhelm the article) provide strong support for inclusion. So does the "edit body" material, which as you pointed out needs to be considered when discussing the lead; there is a 9-paragraph section already in the article. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:38, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

User:MelanieN Factually the answers above *did* run to a lot of "Oppose All" -- with that exact phrasing in many cases and the general theme in many more of the discussions also having a strong 'no not that' flavor. The phrasings as shown in proposals seem toasted enough to me, and note the discussion moved along from there. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Finding common ground (Covid)

If this is to be resolved by !vote, it might make sense to try and find which items have the most agreement and which are the most contentious. Here's a list of things that could conceivably be included in a Lead sentence, pulling from the versions and comments above and from the body of the article.

A. Slow to address pandemic

B. Downplayed severity

C. Ignored or contradicted health recommendations from officials

D. Promoted unproven treatments

E. Passed on false information about test availability and/or vaccine timeline

F. Blamed China/media/democrats/WHO

G. Began withdrawing the US from the WHO

H. Worked to overturn Obamacare

I-1. Focused on economic impact

I-2. Pushed for opening up economies and schools early - added by Neutrality

I-2a Pushed for early reopening of businesses and and other activities, leading to a rapid escalation of the pandemic in early summer, 2020. - added by SPECIFICO

J-1. Invoked wartime production act

J-2. Failed to use the powers of the Wartime Production Act, resulting in ongoing shortages of testing capability and medical supplies. - added by SPECIFICO

K. Issued limited (or "partial") travel ban/restriction(s)

L-1. Signed multi-trillion dollar stimulus

L-2. Signed multi-trillion dollar stimulus, making clear that the stimulus was enacted by Congress almost unanimously - added by Neutrality

M. Attribute some of the critical items (For example: "Critics say Trump was slow to address..." or "Trump was widely criticized for...")

N. U.S. had the world's most confirmed active cases and deaths. - added by Neutrality

O. U.S. had roughly X million cases and Y million deaths. - added by Neutrality

P. Shifted responsibility to the individual states - added by Awilley

Please indicate which of the above you think are or aren't notable enough for Lead inclusion based on the body of sources. And feel free to add items to the list, within reason. ~Awilley (talk) 04:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of adding options I-2, L-2, N, and O. Neutrality 15:59, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I am adding J-2 - failed to use wartime production act powers, resulting in ongoing shortfalls in testing and medical PPP supplies as cases soared. SPECIFICO talk 16:27, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Awilley, why don't you simply close the previous discussion or alternatively audit MrX's assessment of its consensus? SPECIFICO talk 13:30, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, I started this partly based on the complaint that the "oppose all" editors were not offering alternatives, responding to questions, or offering reasonable compromises. diff This isn't something where I expect some admin to make a table and close. My hope was that it would be helpful for the editors themselves to see the points of opposition and common ground. That kind of knowledge is helpful for someone trying to edit a compromise/consensus wording. My other motivation was to help avoid having a close that permanently locks in a wording that 7 out of 20 editors adamantly oppose and had zero input in framing. "Tyranny of the majority" always works when other methods of dispute resolution break down, but it's not the healthiest way of doing things for what should be a collaborative encyclopedia building effort. ~Awilley (talk) 14:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. When editors are simply refusing to collaborate in the face of carefully reasoned evidence and a lot of effort to articulate sourcing and the relation to article content, I don't see any prospect that compromise was on the table. MrX offered a good valid version. It may not be perfect, it may change over time, of course. But nothing would have "locked in" that wording. When we have editors who deny NPOV, falsely argue that RfC's support edit-warring, etc., I don't think we need to consider grand abstractions like "tyrrany of the majority. We don't work on majority. We work on consensus, which was clearly approximated by MrX's edit and could have been modified or improved at any time. To quote an alternative grand principle, Perfect is the enemy of good. When you have editors indignantly and falsely claiming some sort of process abuse while edit-warring, it's usually a tip-off to take a fresh look. Content creators like @Starship.paint: go to a lot of trouble to find sources and policy based solutions. It's demoralizing to them and everyone else to be blocked by editors who offer no such commitment or collaboration in return. Do you see any reasoned argument against the text crafted by @MrX:? Nobody has stated any AFAIK. SPECIFICO talk 16:47, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I haven't edit warred or refused to collaborate. I have offered a viable compromise and neutral version below. Being that this is the greatest crisis Trump has faced in his Presidency, it deserves certainly as much attention as his falsehoods issues and I included his blunders as supported by the RSs.--MONGO (talk) 18:00, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Nobody accused you of anything, MONGO, let alone edit-warring to keep Covid out of the lead. Sounds like you agree it's a non-starter to claim that coronavirus does not belong in the lead. Great! SPECIFICO talk 18:39, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Not seeing that anyone opposed anything except the wording and tone. Attacking others just because they disagree with your stance is not helpful.--MONGO (talk) 19:56, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

It's demoralizing to them and everyone else I'm just curious how you know what's demoralizing to other people, SPECIFICO. Please refrain from presuming to speak for others, as I've asked you to do multiple times before. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:21, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

• This will repeat some elements of Option 3 above and my comments above, but I:

• support Option A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, which are consistent, continuing themes of Trump's activities during the pandemic and main focuses of the high-quality reliable sources. I believe that most of these options already have rough consensus as reflected above.
• I also support including Option N and O, since I think giving the reader an idea of the scale of the pandemic in the U.S., and how the U.S. performed relative to the rest of the world.
• I strongly oppose Option M since it would not be supported by the sources and would go against fundamental encyclopedia policy, which is that we state facts as facts and we don't need in-text attribution unless a notion is seriously contested.
• I oppose Option I-1 because "focused on economic impact" is vague, but I would support including Option I-2 and Option I-2a because that is far more significant and specific (while also concise). I do understand that I-2 overlaps with C ("Ignored or contradicted health recommendations from officials"), so we would have to finesse it somehow.
• I oppose Option J-1 (Defense Production Act) because it would seem to omit the mention that Trump delayed invoking the Act, which is the most important part of this theme and the continuing focus of coverage (four days ago: "Trump administration's delayed use of 1950s law leads to critical supplies shortages"). A modified version of J could be framed to include this context, but I am neutral, lean oppose on such a version mostly for space reasons.
• I oppose Option K as incomplete/misleading for the reasons I extensively explained above: even after the "travel ban," 40,000 Americans directly traveled from China to the U.S. and nearly 8,000 Chinese nationals and foreign residents of Hong Kong and Macao directly traveled to the U.S., plus probably additional thousands from Europe, plus additional thousands on indirect flights, which is why the hgh-quality sources describe the "ban" as "more like a sieve" with "spotty screening."
• I oppose Option L-1 (multi-trillion dollar stimulus) because it lacks context, which is that the law was enacted by Congress almost unanimously (i.e., on a bipartisan basis); I am neutral, leaning oppose on Option L-2, which would include that key context (lean oppose for space constraints).
• I am neutral on Option H; I think the efforts to undermine/strike down the ACA are important enough to include in some part of the lead, but those obviously didn't occur solely, or even mostly, in the context of the pandemic.

Neutrality 16:12, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, can you consider striking Option J-2 and proposing a similar Option J-3, changing the text "failed to use the powers of the Wartime Production Act..." to "delayed invoking the Defense Production Act"? I think this is what you meant. Starship.paint is correct that Option J-2 as written isn't accurate. Neutrality 18:15, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

My understanding is that he announced invoking it but has not used its authority to mandate industrial production. Instead he went on a roadshow of a few companies making supplies and equipment but without using his authority to force pricing production and distribution. Then we continued to hear about states bidding against one another and the shortfall in ventilators and PPE and testing components has persisted to this day. Do we have sourcing that he exercised his emergency powers? SPECIFICO talk 18:21, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

CNN says: "19 companies that have received contracts under the Defense Production Act....But experts say it's not enough and that the effort started far too late." Neutrality 18:33, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

With due appreciation to Awilley for trying to help resolve this, we now have +/- a 12x12 matrix, with rows of content and columns of editors, each cell a (1 or 0). Some editors have insisted that only rows with all ones should go in the lead. Well, per previous discussion and reverting, that's not going to happen. But it is likely to delay any lead content for another month or more. Formalizing this makes it feel more like a vote, when the problem is still just to reasonably summarize the already-existing -- and quite moderate -- article text that was achieved through extended discussion. What are we going to do with dozens or hundreds of votes here? In short, I don't believe that schematizing the talk discussion can resolve the crux of the problem, which is the insistent denials that have tied this up for 5 months. SPECIFICO talk 21:02, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

• Some editors have insisted that only rows with all ones should go in the lead. I haven't seen that, but it's counter to the second sentence at WP:CON and therefore irrelevant. Unanimity is never required for anything that I'm aware of, and certainly not for this.
• If there was a consensus on the definition of reasonably summarize in this case, I suspect Awilley wouldn't have seen the need for this subsection. Most of the listed items are present in the COVID-19 section or the rest of the article, and our options are:

• decide which few are the most leadworthy, or
• say nothing in the lead (which would suit me fine).

• We're sorry that necessary process is taking longer, again. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:41, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Someone could ignore the process, but I imagine their edit would not last long on this article. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 21:49, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh yes, most of us are quite aware unanimity is not required. Tell that to the folks who have edit warred to remove every shred of the solid consensus text from the article. Starting with the initial premature RfC where the abort RfC consensus was disregarded down to the most recent removal of MrX's innocuous text summarizing the article, this process has been broken. It's nonsense to pretend this is normal process of any sort or that it will be resolved with yet more polls and holdouts by those whose views are in the scant minority. SPECIFICO talk 00:23, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support G and H with Obama care reading Affordable Care Act 2600:1702:2340:9470:200B:8D97:705A:F35B (talk) 01:45, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
• Poorly formed question- This cannot possibly lead to a consensus. Giving people nearly 20 different options to piece together a sentence is not going to help and I'm not going waste my time voting on this.--Rusf10 (talk) 20:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

  I disagree. I think it's the only possible path to a clear and durable consensus for something in the lead. We do need a certain level of participation for this to work, and I hear that you're not going to contribute yours. Ok. (As for why I haven't contributed mine, I'm not being hypocritical. My long-standing position has been that this article covers too much about the presidency, and that its lead summarizes too much about the presidency. Over all too much emphasis on the presidency, merely because the article has high visibility. Having apparently lost that battle, I usually sit these things out.) ―Mandruss ☎ 20:30, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

  This section does not supersede the previous and ongoing discussion. Anyway Trump's reaction to the virus is clearly the most personal and idiosyncratic expression of his personality and behavior. It is much more fitting in the bio than most of the presidency-related content already in place. SPECIFICO talk 20:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

  @SPECIFICO: Ok, throw me a bone in the form of a link to a reasonably clear consensus for lead language on COVID-19. I think I've been around long enough to know what a reasonably clear consensus looks like, and we can't add anything without one. If there is a consensus, anybody obstructing its implementation is guilty of disruption and should probably be taken to AE instead of your current approach. My guess is that there is no reasonably clear consensus, however, which is why we're here. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:53, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

  My approach?? Not me. Error? Your views on consensus seem to change week to week. Anyway consensus is not unanimity. The nonsense claims of prior consensus to exclude might be AE-worthy if you are so inclined. SPECIFICO talk 20:59, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

  Your views on consensus seem to change week to week. - Diffs, please? "No consensus to omit" is NOT the same as "consensus to include", and consensus is required to include any disputed content, particularly in this article's lead. Do you dispute that this content is disputed? Anyway consensus is not unanimity. As I clearly said already. I also said that anybody claiming to require unanimity is full of shit. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:09, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

  Oh. Well after you muck the stall, you will find that what's left is an overwhelming consensus among the remaining. And don't forget this latest round of edit warring to keep the consensus text out was started on the preposterous false pretext that a disruptive RfC, wherein the dominant view was Abort, somehow made the edit war legitimate. SPECIFICO talk 00:34, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

  Still waiting for that bone. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

• I am in agreement with Neutrality on the following points: Support A, B, C, D, E, F, and G / Oppose I-1, J-1, L-1, M / Neutral to H and L-2. As for the rest, J-2 is inaccurate, I believe Trump did use the DPA, although he didn't use it extensively enough or early enough. For K, oppose if described as a ban, because of a misleading impression, there were indeed holes for Americans and some foreigners to arrive, also oppose if it is not clarified that only foreigners were affected. For N and O, not needed in the lead, let's focus on Trump's actions. starship.paint (talk) 01:24, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
• I support A-to-G, I-2, L-2, N, and O (if forced to remove 3 of the items I support, I'd remove D,E,F which are lower priority). Given space constraints, I oppose H, J1/J2, and K. I oppose M because it frames uncontested description by RS as criticisms. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

There was consensus for the text added by @MrX:. It was opposed by a few editors who "oppose all" mention of coronavirus in the lead -- an absurd position -- and one editor who denies WP:NPOV. There's no point in the editors who contributed to the valid consensus text repeating their views here. What's needed is either collaboration (presenting RS to support their view) or a stick-drop from those who deny coronavirus belongs in the lead or would like to chronicle Trump's successes in the matter. SPECIFICO talk 23:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

That is exactly correct. Here is the tally from the discussion above:

• 17 Supporting: MelanieN, Scjessey, 0x004d, 2600:1702:2340:9470:*, starship.paint, Harsh, Neutrality, OhKayeSierra, 107.217.84.95, Aquillion, SPECIFICO, Snooganssnoogans, Space4Time3Continuum2x, MrX, FeldBum, Calidum, and Mgasparin. (Most made valid arguments or invoked valid arguments of others)
• 12 Opposing: MONGO, Markbassett, JFG, Rusf10, Basil the Bat Lord, Atsme, Amakuru, Kind Tennis Fan, Mr Ernie, PackMecEng, 121.99.126.230, and MaleRooster. (Some made non-policy-based arguments; several declined to respond to questions challenging their arguments.) - MrX 🖋 13:34, 21 July 2020 (UTC), Corrected miscount. - MrX 🖋 18:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

• I suggest something along the lines of

  After the WHO announced the COVID19 outbreak in China on January 30, the Trump administration issued a partial travel on February 2nd. Trump was slow to address the issues of shortages of personal protective equipment so Democrats urged Trump to invoke the Defense Production Act. Trump supported the bipartisan CARES Act to boost unemployment income for those laid off by the pandemic and to provide relief to businesses. Trump was criticized for a slow response, misleading the public on the availability of testing and treatments and downplaying the severity of the crisis. Polls indicate more than 60% of the electorate believe Trump has been mishandling the pandemic.

  So K, J-1, L-2, A, E, B.--MONGO (talk) 02:56, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

  Except that the article cites RS that say Trump was warned in early January and did nothing. SPECIFICO talk 03:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

  Far too long for mention of a single issue of a highly controversial presidency in the lead of an article that is not specifically about his presidency. Even if he loses re-election and this issue gets the blame for that in RS, we would say in this lead only that, not give details about the issue. It remains to be seen whether the issue will attain that extreme level of importance, approaching Watergate and Monicagate. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:01, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

  The last line could be removed and it would only be 4 lines. We have 3 dedicated to discussions about his falsehoods. It may be a single issue, but it certainly is the most significant issue of his presidency...and the section it supports is 10 paragraphs of the body.--MONGO (talk) 16:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

User:MONGO not that I'm saying ay or nay for it, but will offer remarks on wording back. For "partial travel on February 2nd" is that "partial travel ban" and the word "issued" would be 30 January, or maybe just 'began travel restrictions by February 2'. The second line seems a subset of the theme in the fourth line. And the fifth line seems unclear - polls are a moving target and not sure what poll was or what was asked. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support A, B, C, D, E, F, G, I-2, N per my earlier comments about WP:DUEWEIGHT evidenced by extensive, persistent coverage in reliable sources. Oppose I-1, K, L-1, L-2 - Strong oppose M per WP:OR - MrX 🖋 13:03, 21 July 2020 (UTC), 13:17, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I want to also point out that the following nine editors have previously chosen options A, B, C, D, and E by choosing option 3 in the discussion above: Neutrality, MrX, Scjessey, starship.paint, Harsh, Aquillion, Snooganssnoogans, Calidum, and Mgasparin. I mention this because their previous choices are still valid unless they change them here. - MrX 🖋 13:17, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• A thru G and I-2. I guess? This is a weirdly-formatted survey, and I pray for the admin who comes to close it. ValarianB (talk) 13:21, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• I want a beautifully formatted table of green and red squares by the closer. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:08, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• I was going to abstain from this particular section because I thought it was over complicated and wouldn't go anywhere, but it seems I was wrong. Now that MrX has invoked my username and presented my view implicitly, I think I have no choice but to weigh in with specifics. Mindful that this concerns the lead, and must necessarily be concise, I am obliged to make the following choices:

• Strong support of A, B, C, D, E, F, and G.
• Support of I-2.
• Neutral on H (probably not the space for it).
• Weak oppose of L-2 because of space.
• Oppose all others for various reasons including WP:WEIGHT for some and WP:OR for some.

-- Scjessey (talk) 13:47, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Wouldn't I-2 as added by @Neutrality: better reflect the sources and significance of the premature reopening posture if the text states that the result was a resurgeance, acceleration, and geographic spread of the virus? Pining those who endorsed options I and I-2 @Scjessey, ValarianB, MrX, and Snooganssnoogans: I will add this as I-2a SPECIFICO talk 18:01, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• The tilting back up of the curve is almost certainly the result of premature opening, and I'm sure sources will support that, but I'm not sure it is the kind of thing we need to put in the lead. Better in the body of the article, methinks. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:06, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• My thinking was that w/o context, "early" will seem subjective or uncalibrated. We got quite a bit of criticism and discussion about "slow" that may relate to the same issue. SPECIFICO talk 18:16, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• Also, in general I think the formalities without results are meaningless. Trump appears to favor announcing what sound like bold measures: Travel Ban (a sieve) Wartime Powers (to no effect per CNN) Purchase millions of doses of Hydroxychloroquine (scientific trials found no effect) Withdraw from WHO (one year lag, if it ever happens). Even if these had been significant, they are the kind of policy (or false policy) measures that would go in the Presidency or other articles. On a personal biographical level, the noteworthy factors are his disengagement from the crisis, empty promises, and obstruction of best practices epidemiological policy. These personal actions and choices are suitable for this article. I would omit all the inconsequential or tangential actions, including signing a veto-proof relief bill, passively watching Congress and the Fed do the rescue of the American economy. These are highly personal choices. Not many leaders have acted that way. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I kind of agree with Scjessey here. The re-opening and the rapid escalation were partially, maybe even mostly, Trump's doing, but it was also because of governors (especially in the south); young people ignoring social distancing; businesses and local governments failing to take adequate measures, or rolling back measures (e.g. airlines), and so on. I think this is too complex to properly summarize in the lead. The phrase "... and and other activities" is a bit vague. - MrX 🖋 00:55, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support A-G A-F and I-2a and Oppose H, I-1, I-2, J-1, K-N, P for the table of @MrX: SPECIFICO talk 18:31, 23 July 2020 (UTC) WHO thing is mid-2021. Unlikely. SPECIFICO talk 20:06, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• This table does look like a cool visualization. Please see my votes below. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Support F, G, I-1 Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support K Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Weak Support I-2, L-2, P Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Neutral A, B, C, H, L-1, M (would change vote if I knew what was being attributed), O Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose D, I-2a Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose J-1 Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose E, J-2, N Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose all - call an RfC, propose a succinct paragraph in compliance with NPOV (which I thought we already did), and get wider community input. Is it possible there may be a mistaken belief that the US government is in full control of the country's healthcare in a crisis, over and above the enumerated powers of POTUS? If you believe it does, read this to better understand that state governments actually possess more power than the federal government in responding to a health crisis. The US does not have the same health care system as other countries in the world, including Canada, the UK, Mexico and most of Europe per List of countries with universal health care. _Talk 📧 21:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

We're trying to refine the wording. Repeating your !vote from the section above does not aid that process. - MrX 🖋 19:44, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

• This really should be done by way of an article Rfc to bring in fresh eyes, otherwise we have less than a dozen people so far chiming in on a critical issue in the lead of one of our most visited pages.--MONGO (talk) 18:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Maybe the 15 of the 20 current proposals with the most votes could be presented in the RfC? Or perhaps something like those with a score of great than -2 or even 0? Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 19:07, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

That's nonsense. We are not sentencing a woman to death here. It is just a summary of established article content. An RfC adding drive-by opinions of editors not familiar with previous article and lead discussions would only prevent ongoing incremental improvement. SPECIFICO talk 19:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

There are many potential summaries of the established article content, and you keep implying that your preference is the only one that makes sense. Alternatively, you keep implying that your preference already has consensus, but when challenged you fail to produce persuasive evidence of same. Apparently you just want us to take your word for things and recognize your superior judgment in these things. This persistent behavior is not constructive behavior. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:41, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I imply nothing. Take a deep breath. Thx. SPECIFICO talk 21:54, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I took a deep breath and I stand by my previous comment. Thx. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose all (seems the consensus) - while there were variations in the opposition, the prior discussion of this thread seemed the proposals 1 2 3 had a consensus of 'oppose' and phrasing of 'oppose all' was commonly said as each one was mostly opposed by folks rather than anything having a consensus. The A B C ... through P are topics and if you're asking are they contentious then I'd have to say it depends on the phrasing and the context. A topic of "slow" is different depending on if the proposed phrase is "initially slow" or "criticized as slow" or "falsely said slow"; and if the context is for a LEAD edit or a body edit, and whether the sole part of the paragraph of has more there. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 17:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC) (edit conflict) If you're asking if each is notable enough for the lead then I'll have to say that 'notable' is not an acceptable basis for lead position so oppose all. The basis could be a WP:LEAD summary of body content or a match for WP:DUE prominence by coverage WEIGHT, no other basis would do. Markbassett (talk) 18:42, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@Markbassett:

Please don't add "Oppose all" across the board to this chart. We already have the 12 oppose all !votes tallied above. The purpose of this list is to determine specific wording preferred by editors who support something in the lead. - MrX 🖋 19:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

So either delete the comment or change it, please. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:56, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Scjessey - Oppose all (seems the consensus) - factually is part of my input. Yes 'none of the above' isn't desired, but that doesn't mean 'none of the above' isn't part of my input - and the above snippet of MrX is a different flavor of intent that seems simply incorrect since this thread isn't yet looking at the "determine specific wording", which was part of why I'm at Oppose all. Where the thread was looking for some sense of what's more or less contentious -- I have explained that depends on the phrasing and position -- and where the ending question of which is "notable enough for Lead" -- I give oppose all because that's not a valid basis for Lead content. While I could try to give some ranking as to what seems body larger or WEIGHT more prominent -- even that wraps into it depends on phrasing and position and would still leave all these selections as 'oppose' for content and conflict reasons. My responses would be 'not X: blah bla bla, it should ask bla beeh bla'.

Although the phrasing topic is not the question asked, that seemed to me an important sidenote to mention and it seems evidenced at F/G and I, J, and L. I also see A as conflicting with or competing with M because of the wording, both being some prominence to a sub-area of criticism and how it's phrased. So !vote is oppose all, but this was somewhat good for eliciting more concerns. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:42, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• With the caveat that I'm not a big fan of the way this was presented (we need to get better at shutting down launches of major discussions that haven't been sufficiently workshopped; it's almost impossible to abort anything other than the most clear-cut cases, and anyone with ideas on making it easier should go to WP:VPI), here are my views: Support A, B, C, D, E, G, I-2 or I-2a, and L-2 as reasonable due coverage of the defining crisis of Trump's presidency. For L-2, I'd suggest the phrasing Signed a multi-trillion dollar stimulus passed by Congress. Strategically !voting weak support for F, K, N, and P, since these are all true facts, and while I'd personally leave those out for WP:WEIGHT reasons, I think it's essential to get something in the lead at this point so I'm not willing to risk scuttling things by !voting neutral. I object somewhat to N on the grounds that if we're looking to gauge severity, the per capita count is more appropriate. Oppose H, I-1, J-1/J-2, and O, and strongly oppose M. For H: Unless there's news I'm not caught up on (in which case feel free to give me links), Trump's efforts to repeal Obamacare are nothing but lip service at this point. For I-1: it's not really accurate to say he focused on the economic impact, when the main thing driving the economic downturn right now is the prevalence of the virus; the qualifier "tried" would be needed. For J: undue, since Trump hasn't made sufficient use of the act and since it's not notable as the bare expected minimum response. For M: it's unclear which things this would apply to, which makes it a bad addition, but in any case, plenty of these things are facts that shouldn't be attributed as opinions per WP:NPOV's avoid stating facts as opinions, and anything that's merely an opinion doesn't belong in the lead. For O: undue. {{u|Sdkb}}  18:10, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• Chiming in a little late: I absolutely think we need something about the coronavirus in the lead; it’s disgraceful that we aren’t mentioning what will probably turn out to be the most memorable thing about his presidency. I think we can only have a sentence in the lead, or at most two, and it should only include things that are described in some detail and well sourced in the article text. I would include A, B, C, D, E, K, and P. Basically I propose a version of Version 2 from the earlier discussion: Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic; he issued partial travel bans for China and Europe, but otherwise minimized the threat and shifted responsibility for combating the virus to the individual states. He ignored or contradicted many health recommendations from officials in his administration and passed false information to the public about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:39, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  Update: After looking at MrX’s chart below (thank you, User:MrX, brilliantly done!) it looks like solid support for A through G and nothing else. Personally I wouldn’t have included F (the “blamed” sentence) as it is less emphasized in the article text that other issues, but seeing A through G as an apparent consensus, I would support a sentence along those lines. Looking at my proposed version above, I would change it to leave out K and P, and instead include F and G. New proposal: Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many health recommendations from officials in his administration, and passed false information to the public about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. He blamed the pandemic on China as well as Democratic state governors, the previous administration, and the media, and he took steps to withdraw the United States from the World Health Organization. Note that I reworded the “blamed” section slightly, to reflect what the article text says. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:59, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Support B, C, D, F, G, I-1, I-2, I-2a J-1, Neutral A (Some RS do say it, but there is disagreement on the subject, his travel ban was pretty quick.) M (While attribution can't hurt, I just don't think it's necessary, at least for the phrases I supported), P (I think that is fairly vague, not concrete enough to unequivocally put in the lead.) Oppose E (I just don't think it has gotten enough coverage to have due weight for inclusion in the lede.) GH (Simply not DUE, and of only peripheral relevance to his policy on the pandemic) J-2 (He did invoke it, later then he should have but he nonetheless did) L-1, L-2 (Sure he signed it, but congress was the one that did everything, Trump did nothing else but sign it) N, O (It's not a concrete example of anything Trump has done, and something many would say is not even a result of anything Trump has done) Strong Support K (This is the one thing that Trump actually did to promptly. If we are going to have any due weight in this section, we have to include the one thing that Trump actually did right.) Zoozaz1 (talk) 18:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Zoozaz1: You indicated both support and opposition for option G. Would you please clarify? - MrX 🖋 19:10, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, that was a typo. It gets a bit confusing with the large amount of options. I meant H. Zoozaz1 (talk) 20:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Unofficial !vote tally

Here is my attempt at a visual representation of the !votes in this discussion. Feel free to edit the original to add new !votes, or if I've made any errors. I would ask that you consult before making major changes to the formatting. - MrX 🖋 18:27, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Very helpful, and obviously no trivial task. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:41, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Seems to ratify the consensus text initially crafted by MrX, possibly with some pointers for additions and tweaks. SPECIFICO talk 18:43, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Please don't add "Oppose all" across the board to this chart. We already have the 12 oppose all !votes tallied above. The purpose of this list is to determine specific wording preferred by editors who support something in the lead. - MrX 🖋 19:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Seems short -- I'm thinking the approach overplayed, not sure you should try this approach ... but will offer a note on completeness for possible help. This seems missing input by RusF near 2600 and my and Sdkb recent remarks immediately above, and mention for views of Harsh, Aquillion, Calidum, and Mgasparin. The list of 10 also seems less than the 29 prior participants (from "17+12" remark). Perhaps view this as a powerpoint (caveat implied) to show this subthread so far but not all of the thread views? Or that this is a sidethread for a feeling of who approves where in the A through P ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps a fresh voice might help with this endless discussion. I've looked over the above and am thoroughly confused as to the text proposed for the lead. It strikes me that including all of the options that have the most support (c.f., table) would give a paragraph that may be too long for the lead. A suggestion for a concrete way forward? Start a fresh discussion (close this one; any new editor would likely have no idea how things stand). In the new discussion, have contributors develop 3-4 text proposals for the lead, perhaps in a table - have three people write 3 suggested texts based on this discussion, then let those texts get polished by others (sandbox style; pick the one you like best, fix the bits you don't like) for a few days or a week. Then take a new vote/assessment of the 3-4 developed texts. (I am in general in favor of text outline such as: "Trump denied, was slow, obfuscated, misinformed, then led the country to early reopening, leading to a resurgence of the pandemic by June 2020." This sort of endless process is why I (try to) shy away from political articles like this.) Bdushaw (talk) 21:00, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Incidentally, as you all know, the lead should reflect the content of the article. But the covid section of the article may (should) undergo considerable revision. It makes sense to me that the U.S. federal government response to the COVID-19 pandemic is the Main article, while this article should employ condensed text from that article. The point being that text for the lead may be aiming at a moving target - it might make more sense to revise/condense the covid section first, then draw on what develops for some good lead sentences. (And I think that Trump urged an early reopening, with several states following that dangerous lead is an important fact.) Bdushaw (talk) 22:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Bdushaw - welcome, and I agree at least that this should respawn/refocus as it's own thread -- we've gotten a long way from the original topic of whether to mention Obamacare in lead or to say it as 'Affordable Care Act'. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 22:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

You have to read the entire level 2 section to understand what's going on. Version 3 proposed by Neutrality (scroll up), plus the WHO withdrawal, has obtained the most support. Notwithstanding the 11 opposes and 1 partial oppose, this version, or a close variant, has the greatest amount of support. There is no benefit from starting the process over for what would be the third time for this discussion, and at least the fifth time for this material in general. Contrary to your apparent assumption, the goal of this, or any discussion is not to make it easy for new users to understand what's going on. In my view, new users should edit in non-controversial article space; learn our policies and guidelines; and gain experience with the dispute resolution process before jumping into one of the most controversial, high-traffic articles on Misplaced Pages. - MrX 🖋 12:02, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I didn't say start over, I said make a clean summary so that others can see what is going on. I've been a new user since 2005, I've made valuable, constructive, non-combative (until now...) contributions to this article, your views on Misplaced Pages and new users are contrary to Misplaced Pages, and you, MrX, should know better. Bdushaw (talk) 12:50, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Then why did you mention it? If you can't unravel the discussion that's not something that someone else has to solve. Most everyone else seems to understand what the options are. To recap: The original post proposed specific, clear wording. Neutrality proposed an alteration to that (version 3; also crystal clear) which was supported by several editors. Other editors blanket-opposed everything and then disappeared from the discussion. starship.paint listed extensive evidence supporting option 3 (as well as 1 and 2). Then, Awilley attempted to break it down so that we could vote on specific elements. I neatly summarized that in a table. The clean summary is at the top of each subsection, and only gets confusing when editors complain about process, ramble incoherently, and make repetitive arguments. - MrX 🖋 17:39, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Bdushaw - For what help it may be, I think the “version 3” refers to the first subthread of “We have to agree and specify wording”. The top thread “Covid-19 in the lead” was originally about whether to mention “Obamacare” or to use “Affordable Care Act” and had a few variants of one proposal, then came a “We have to agree” section with 5 variants of a different proposal. That whole “We have to” section had mostly objections, and unusually said “all” in many “Oppose all” feedbacks. Version 3 was already and emphatically rejected. This part is maybe getting some info for what bits the supporters felt most positive towards. Covid has substantial articles and is at Presidency of Donald Trump - and it has a section here in his biographical article, but Lead position was decided against. In the last rfc, (and this one seems headed the same way) noted at the top of this thread:

This RfC doesn't reach a consensus about whether to mention coronavirus in the lead of Trump's article. It also doesn't reach a consensus about what to say if we did mention it.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:12, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

The additions / reverts by MrX and SPECIFICO go against the current consensus list #45. I haven't seen anywhere the new consensus nor the agreed upon wording. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

While I personally agree with the opinion expressed in this edit, I find it outrageous that it is being stated in Wikivoice. Something is seriously wrong if anyone believes that that's what WP:NPOV looks like. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't say whether I agree or disagree with the opinion expressed, it shouldn't matter, I would agree that it shouldn't be a Wiki voice. I removed the section again since a clear consensus should be established before an inclusion. I do think SOMETHING belongs in the lead, but we haven't found agreement YET. --Malerooster (talk) 15:12, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I've reread the Covid19 section of this article - I find the text in question (added/removed/reverted/etc) to be a succinct summary of that section; more than a few things are missing (undermining health insurance, withdraw from WHO to cover false allegations against it, face masks, confusion and contradiction, etc), but brevity is a constraint. These bare facts, readily stated in the article, stacked together look bad in wikivoice...but those are the facts of the situation. The actions stated are not single incidences, but repeated, sustained actions by Trump. What NPOV statement could be devised that reflects these facts in NPOV voice? Perhaps the addition of something positive Trump did to combat the virus? (truthfully, don't know what that would be). We need the/some specific organized text options to work from, IMO. I found myself looking at Adolf Hitler to see how that article handled horrible stuff in wikivoice. The discussion here has become endless...something else is needed to break the logjam. Bdushaw (talk) 15:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Bdushaw - obviously lesser items don’t get into body of his biography, much less the lead. NPOV is balance for the same negative item so it would be about the same item as the criticism. NPOV isn’t in having an equal number of positive and negative items. As for positives — well those are easily findable. Obvious ones would include being fast with travel restrictions, and fast plus substantial financial stimulus; supporting speedy development for a broad and diverse range of treatments and vaccines. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Thucydides411 - I'm sorry for your outrage, but you should direct it at the numerous sources that have explicitly stated these facts. - MrX 🖋 17:39, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Malerooster - You have misread consensus, or possibly confused it with unanimous agreement.- MrX 🖋 17:39, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Thucydides411, Malerooster, Bdushaw, and MrX: if the appropriate sources were provided here, derived from places like Nature and Science, the Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine, what if the text that MrX inserted were attributed to medical and public health scientists? I think those sources are available. -Darouet (talk) 17:32, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Let's please stay focused. starship.paint has listed numerous sources. I hope you took the time to read them. We don't typically consult medical journals when reporting the political and governing actions of the president. Why would we? Trump was slow to react and lied are not a WP:MEDRS-relevant claims. - MrX 🖋 17:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

And we don't attribute to a source when there is broad agreement among RS so as to imply false equivalencies. That's how Trump got in trouble with the astral sex doctor #Dreamin'ofaDemon. SPECIFICO talk 19:06, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

What's the false equivalence implied by my suggestion? -Darouet (talk) 04:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Folks - you are perhaps having fun in that echo chamber, but it might work out better to address the concerns of other views or to at least acknowledge and show hearing in ways that aren’t dismissive and shows restraint about calling them deplorables. FWIW - is there anything of a purely factual and/or neutral content that you think could actually get widespread support now? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Darouet: - if you think sources like Nature and Science, the Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine are available and commenting on this exact topic, that's great! Bring them to the table :) starship.paint (talk) 14:43, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Those journals are in fact covering the topic. For instance:

• Piller C (March 26, 2020). "'This is insane!' Many scientists lament Trump's embrace of risky malaria drugs for coronavirus". Science. doi:10.1126/science.abb9021. Title speaks for itself; discusses Trump's promotion of medical misinformation and dubious "cures".
• Maxmen A, Tollefson J (2020). "Two decades of pandemic war games failed to account for Donald Trump". Nature. 584 (7819): 26–29. doi:10.1038/d41586-020-02277-6. PMID 32753759. Reviews the ways in which "war-gaming" efforts to prepare for a pandemic failed to account for a President who actively sabotages his own public-health experts; notes that it was well-known before this pandemic that travel bans are ineffective and that testing capacity and PPE stockpiles are key.
• Garrett L (2020). "COVID-19: the medium is the message". Lancet. 395 (10228): 942–943. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(20)30600-0. PMID 32171075. ... had the Trump administration not declared criticism of its slow response to the encroaching epidemic a 'hoax', claiming it was a political attack from the left, the US CDC might have been pressured to do widespread testing in early February, discovering pockets of community transmission before they dispersed widely.
• Devi S (2020). "US public health budget cuts in the face of COVID-19". Lancet Infect Dis. 20 (4): 415. doi:10.1016/S1473-3099(20)30182-1. PMID 32222208. Discusses the ways in which Trump's budget cuts have weakened the US's ability to respond to the pandemic. Describes "concern over Trump’s appointment of Mike Pence, his vice-president, to lead the response because of his antiscientific views", citing the fact that Pence was claiming as late as 2000 that smoking was harmless and did not cause cancer.
• Limaye RJ, Sauer M, Ali J, Bernstein J, Wahl B, Barnhill A, Labrique A (2020). "Building trust while influencing online COVID-19 content in the social media world". Lancet Digit Health. 6 (2): e277. doi:10.1016/S2589-7500(20)30084-4. PMID 32322814. Discusses the spread of misinformation, specifically citing "the Trump administration referring to the epidemic as a hoax and political attack by opposition politicians. Misinformation can have fatal consequences, as shown by the spread of premature evidence suggesting chloroquine is an effective treatment for COVID-19."
• Waldman S (April 15, 2020). "U.S. conservatives who detest climate models add a new target: coronavirus models". Science. doi:10.1126/science.abc2693. Draws a direct line between Republican politicians' efforts to undermine epidemiological modeling of Covid-19 and their decades-long efforts to sabotage climate science.

Note that this is only a small sample. Of course, WP:MEDRS sources aren't necessary to support the facts that Trump's response to the pandemic has been slow, chaotic, and marked by the promulgation of misinformation and the undermining of legitimate public-health authorities, but they do exist. Looking through this discussion, I get the sense that the objections have very little to do with the volume and quality of sourcing (which is undeniably extensive), and more to do with resistance on the part of some editors to conveying well-sourced but unpalatable truths. MastCell  23:46, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@MastCell: :::waves::: It's been a while! -- Scjessey (talk) 14:47, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary/Recap

At the risk of incurring the wrath of...everyone... I attempt to write a summary or recap of the above discussion. Be bold, they say.

With pointers from the ever-encouraging MrX, the above lengthy dialog does make sense. The question was what key phrases would comprise an addition to the lead. User Awilley, carefully examined the content of the Covid19 section of the article and broke down the key elements as options A-P. That is important, since the lead must reflect the content of the article. Starship.paint provided an extensive summary/survey of the reliable sources that supported each of those key elements. The table by MrX then summarized the user support from editors for each possible contribution to the lead. This process is thorough, clinical and objective (hence intimidatingly lengthy). From the table, indicating elements that had the most support, the options for text for the lead were evaluated Version 1-3. Of these, Version 3 had the greatest support, recently leading to the minor revert battle when it was attempted to be added to the lead.

Version 3: Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many health recommendations from officials in his administration, and passed false information to the public about unproven treatments and the availability of testing.

I copy edited this text to

Version 3a: Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic. He minimized its threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing.

which seemed to me to be better English and seems to have been supported.

The facts of each of the phrases of this entry are not in dispute. Put together this way, however, they provoked a negative response: not in wikivoice, not NPOV, etc.

Those that object to the statement or wish to improve it have an obligation to suggest appropriate text, drawn from the Covid19 section, and/or develop the Covid19 section to better reflect their views as to appropriate facts or tone; supported by reliable sources as always. Option K, the immigration response, has been mentioned as one of Trump's positive contributions, but this option received little support.

A key, basic question, apparently still unanswered, is whether the Covid19 response is to be mentioned at all in the lead.

Sticking strictly to Misplaced Pages policies and respectful of the above discussion, what can be added or changed to the proposed Version 3 text that would result in a consensus for an addition to the lead? Bdushaw (talk) 13:26, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I note that per the discussion below, the article U.S. federal government response to the COVID-19 pandemic is available as a resource. I view it as a sister article to this one. Bdushaw (talk) 13:53, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

It has been noted that I misrepresented the chronology of the Versions and the subsequent discussion. It was Versions first, work to determine a best phrasing 2nd. I recognized that midway through the above, but thought the process was the main point, chronology is neither here nor there in this case.Bdushaw (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• User:Bdushaw a few facts off in that review, let me restate.

Awiley did some paraphrasing of bits for A-M from a casually said from prior TALK as well as article. That later expanded a bit and he later added P. It’s not a careful examination of article nor all from him.

Starship had previously done unrelated 5 sets of urls titled with kinds of “slow”, they were not part of the current A thru P items and only A is about “slow”.

MrX summarised only the minority of editors who wanted anything as to what bits they’d like. Those opposed were expressly disinvited and their inputs are not reflected.

The question of whether there is to be Covid in the lead is not unanswered. The answer in the consensus list is “no”.

Those who object have no “obligation to suggest appropriate text”, that is kind of the point. If anything, the BRD guidance is for the *proposer* to listen to the objections already given.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 09:14, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Current Consensus #45: "There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section." It would be helpful if you could provide a brief summary of the arguments of those "opposed" (and what exactly they are opposed to), keeping in mind the present content of the Covid19 section of the article. Bdushaw (talk) 10:12, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Here is a version of Version 3a, annotated by supporting citations presently given in the article Covid19 section. (I don't advocate including these citations in the lead.):

Trump was slow to react to the COVID-19 pandemic. He minimized its threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing.

References

1. Cloud, David; Pringle, Paul; Stokols, Eli (April 19, 2020). "How Trump let the U.S. fall behind the curve on coronavirus threat". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved April 21, 2020.
2. ^ Lipton, Eric; Sanger, David E.; Haberman, Maggie; Shear, Michael D.; Mazzetti, Mark; Barnes, Julian E. (April 11, 2020). "He Could Have Seen What Was Coming: Behind Trump's Failure on the Virus". The New York Times. Retrieved April 11, 2020.
3. ^ Kelly, Caroline (March 21, 2020). "Washington Post: US intelligence warned Trump in January and February as he dismissed coronavirus threat". CNN. Retrieved April 21, 2020.
4. Blake, Aaron (July 6, 2020). "President Trump, coronavirus truther". The Washington Post. Retrieved July 11, 2020.
5. ^ Allen, Arthur; McGraw, Meredith (March 5, 2020). "Trump gets a fact check on coronavirus vaccines – from his own officials". Politico. Retrieved April 12, 2020. Cite error: The named reference "Allen-200305" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
6. Wemple, Erik (April 16, 2020). "More news outlets are bailing on Trump's coronavirus briefings". The Washington Post. Retrieved April 16, 2020.
7. Valverde, Miriam (March 12, 2020). "Donald Trump's Wrong Claim That 'Anybody' Can Get Tested For Coronavirus". Kaiser Health News. Retrieved March 18, 2020.
8. ^ Woodward, Calvin (April 11, 2020). "Trump Leaves Trail of Unmet Promises in Coronavirus Response". U.S. News & World Report. Associated Press. Retrieved April 12, 2020.
9. Baker, Peter; Rogers, Katie; Enrich, David; Haberman, Maggie (April 6, 2020). "Trump's Aggressive Advocacy of Malaria Drug for Treating Coronavirus Divides Medical Community". The New York Times. Retrieved April 8, 2020.
10. Aratani, Lauren (May 5, 2020). "Why is the White House winding down the coronavirus taskforce?". The Guardian. Retrieved June 8, 2020.
11. Valverde, Miriam (March 12, 2020). "Donald Trump's Wrong Claim That 'Anybody' Can Get Tested For Coronavirus". Kaiser Health News. Retrieved March 18, 2020.

I looked over the above discussion, and noted that, despite repeated requests, those opposed to inclusion of a Covid19 statement, or to aspects of facts discussed, provided a dearth of citations to support their views. It would be nice to see a collection of citations such as starship.paint provided, that would support a moderated version of Version 3. A principle objection was that the statements of Version 3 are absolute, whereas they should be couched in language as "Critics say..." or "Health officials say". I don't find that argument convincing - it isn't consistent with the absolute nature of the statements in the citations given, we are to avoid weasel words ("Critics" ??? Who?), and such language is not consistent with how the Covid19 section is written.Bdushaw (talk) 11:22, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

As a matter of discussion on principle, I noted that the lead presently states Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist. rather than the more direct Many of his comments and actions have been racially charged or racist. I contemplate how the Version 3 statement may be reformulated in this sort of way...Trump's response to the pandemic has been characterized as slow... etc? ("characterized as" is still a weasel word approach...characterized by who?) Bdushaw (talk) 11:55, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

So here is an attempt: Version 3b Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic has been characterized as slow. He has been described as minimizing its threat, ignoring or contradicting many recommendations from health officials, and promoting false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. Bdushaw (talk) 12:12, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bdushaw Let me be clear: WP:ONUS is on the proposers here. Those who want some content in the lead maybe should try acknowledging concerns, seeking to address them, and acknowledging maybe that it actually doesn’t fit into his biography article. To just repeatedly try minor variations of #3 and to speak presumptively that oppose !votes cannot speak or must provide parts they would accept, and literally only count supporters just seems Denialism a.k.a WP:IDHT. There is no consensus to have anything, and there’s no onus to provide a cite about that since it was from two RFCs. Just tired of having to read yet another post talking about the weeks-ago rejected version 3 or repeating yet again the same cites, it seems WP:STICK. I’ll be happy to offer input for folks who want to address concerns and improve the article and consensus - but right now that is by saying to discuss and address the concerns. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:22, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Regardless of how you frame it, Mark, there's clearly significant support for A, B, C, D, E, F and G. I would say an overwhelming consensus, in fact. So that should be our starting point. As for "acknowledging concerns", the majority does not need to bend over backwards to accommodate the minority. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:36, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Tsk. Well, I could use your phrasing and frame it there’s clearly significant opposition, and that clearly there is no consensus to include anything. I however can back that up with fact of a numbered consensus said that twice, and by this thread the revert and amount of oppose in the top with unusual amount of ‘oppose all’. So that should be your starting point. And that WP guidance the ONUS is on proposer, along with BRD to address the concerns. Instead there seems a persistent behaviour of presumptive declaration, denying or simply ignoring any other views even exist and overstating support. (This apparent announcing a count limited to non-opposition as a ‘consensus’ being a case in point.) Well, it’s an approach I don’t think improves content or leads to consensus, but for now I don’t see any willingness to address things so think it will remain at no consensus for anything. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:10, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

To add to the summary above, I note that, at least for the past few weeks, I believe the content of the Covid19 section of this article has been stable. I've just learned that there is also the article Trump administration communication during the COVID-19 pandemic of direct relation to this discussion. Bdushaw (talk) 05:30, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

There have been two previous discussions of this issue, now archived (link 1, link 2) The first was a formal RfC, the second has been called an RfC, and is closed as such, but it seems it was not actually a formal RfC. Both of these discussions could be characterized as still struggling to define the parameters of the issue. Bdushaw (talk) 06:43, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I've been reviewing WP:LEAD. I provide here two quotes from that guidance of direct relevance to our present impass:

• Reliably sourced material about encyclopedically relevant controversies is neither suppressed in the lead nor allowed to overwhelm; the lead must correctly summarize the article as a whole.
• The lead must conform to verifiability, biographies of living persons, and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and direct quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead.

So (a) the lead requires a summary of the Covid-19 section, and (b) it appears it also requires extensive citations as well. Bdushaw (talk) 16:18, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

We don't have citations in the lead of this article. Since the lead is a summary of the body, and the body contains the citations, there is no need to repeat them in the lead. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:17, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

What Scjessey said, notwithstanding the MOS guideline you quoted. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:59, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Of general, but related interest, today in the WA Post, "Covid-19 is one of Misplaced Pages’s biggest challenges ever. Here’s how the site is handling it." Bdushaw (talk) 16:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Chiming in late to the discussion: I support version 3A as proposed by Bdushaw above, and I think it is time to put it in the lead. I would also support "has been characterized as", only if that is necessary to get agreement to put it in the article. @Bdushaw: Thanks for your dedicated, focused, and neutral work on this issue. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:38, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

• How to end this mess: Yikes, this discussion is still going on? We are utterly past past the point of further debate being useful, and it's also pretty clear that (intentionally or not, and to AGF I think it's largely unintentional) there is a status quo stonewalling dynamic where those opposed to mentioning the pandemic in the lead are using the lack of clear consensus around what specific text to add as a rationale for blocking the addition of anything at all. That deadlock is not going to get broken by another summary of a summary of the ten previous summaries, but only by a formal administrative close. I'm therefore listing this discussion at WP:ANRFC. Hopefully, the closer will be able to use the massive amount of prior discussion on this topic to assess a consensus for a specific wording that we can add to the article and the current consensus list. But even if not, they would at least be able to offer up a concise framing of the available options in a way that would allow for a truly conclusive RfC (probably advertised at WP:CENT), rather than one that constantly gets derailed every time someone wants to modify one of the proposals or reset the discussion and starts a new subsection reframing the options as a way to do that. {{u|Sdkb}}  20:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Comment to closer: this close should take into account that there is an RfC lower on the page which has virtually reached consensus on the language to include. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

  MelanieN, oh wow, I hadn't even noticed that yet. If this is take 69, I guess that's take 70. Whichever admin does a close here should close them all together. {{u|Sdkb}}  20:41, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• Note to closer: The related RfC referenced by MelanieN has been archived. It can be found here: - MrX 🖋 11:08, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Transition of power

Should the recent "peaceful transition of power" stuff be in this article or is it better suited for his other articles? It was recently added by Soibangla, I reverted stating lets hold off on this for now. right now it is clearly undue for this article, and Nomoskedasticity reinserted stating this part is okay. PackMecEng (talk) 20:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Usual objection to that level of recentist (and transient) detail in this article. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:16, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

I think this is something that would be highly relevant if it happens. If it doesn't happen, it's just another piece of stray rhetoric from Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, if it happens it is a big deal. PackMecEng (talk) 22:30, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Something for Presidency of Donald Trump, methinks. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

It has also been thrown in Donald Trump 2020 presidential campaign by Soibangla. PackMecEng (talk) 00:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Also added to 2020 United States presidential election by Davide King. PackMecEng (talk) 15:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Trump has been known to spew empty rhetoric quite often. If this ends up being something that follows him for an unusually long time or something that is remembered as one of the biggest examples of his extraordinary speech, then it should be included (God forbid it actually happen). Right now this story is just too new to know with any objectivity what this will amount to, speculation aside. mossypiglet (talk) quote or something 22:46, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

While it most certainly is notable for him to suggest something of the sort in normal circumstances, it is at the moment just another one of his outlandish statements. I think that it may be best to wait to add this and see how everything pans out. If he doesn't actually notably resist transition of power, this may not be something to be included. TheGEICOgecko (talk) 01:32, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• This is the first time in the history of the Republic, to my knowledge, that a sitting President has suggested that he will not comply with the peaceful transfer of power after an election. To claim that any mention in the relevant biography constitutes "undue weight" is inexpressibly bizarre, speaking as someone who doesn't frequent this particular talkpage bubble but who has been applying WP:WEIGHT for a decade-and-a-half now. MastCell  16:57, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Similar happened during the 2016 election. It is a standard Trump says crap and unless it happens it is meaningless like most of what he says. PackMecEng (talk) 17:02, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Regardless of anything he does or doesn’t do, his words alone are extraordinarily dangerous because he has the biggest bully pulpit on the planet and many millions of his supporters hang on his every word. Some believe he was sent by God to vanquish evil from America. He is giving people a “reason” to question and challenge the legitimacy of our democracy. The danger of such speech cannot be overstated and one doesn’t need to be a “liberal” to know it. soibangla (talk) 18:01, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
    • Meh, probably not. PackMecEng (talk) 19:09, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
      • In 2016, he wasn't Commander in Chief, able to deploy troops. (I doubt they'd follow his orders but what about the armed cruise rally followers?) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 20:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
        • It really comes down to an if it happens situation. Right now it is undue weight for his main bio, but if it happens it will be lead material I am sure. PackMecEng (talk) 20:11, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
          • That is a common misinterpretation of WP:WEIGHT, which is about the prevalence of views in reliable sources, not about our own analyses of relevance or importance. You and I feel that most of what emerges from Trump's undisciplined mind and mouth should be taken with grains of salt, but what we think is irrelevant for Misplaced Pages purposes. Reliable sources generally do not take it with grains of salt, and they haven't done so in this case. (This doesn't mean I support this content as proposed (see my comment above), but only that your WEIGHT argument is without merit. If you are not in fact referring to the WEIGHT policy, you should avoid words like "undue" and "weight" for the sake of clarity.) ―Mandruss ☎ 21:00, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
            • When assessing due weight for a subject you need to look at the totality of their life and impact. In this situation it fails weight because of the quantity of text in proportion to his overall life and impact. Realistically that speaks more to recentism or NPOV than due weight at times. So while I partially disagree with your definition, I will try to be more clear in the future. PackMecEng (talk) 21:10, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng I don't see you have consensus to remove the content as you did earlier today. As you raised this issue, I recommend you self-revert and put this matter to a vote here. soibangla (talk) 21:46, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I see a majority in favor of removing the new material. Also I should remind you, since this is new material the onus is on you to secure consensus for inclusion. Not the other way around. PackMecEng (talk) 22:00, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Correct as to the second point, which moots the first. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

• Does anyone think this is less significant to the totality of Trump's life than, e.g. the barebones recitation of detail regarding his "media career"? I don't. That whole section could simply say that he developed a bold public media persona through a variety of successful forays into a variety of media -- with a link to relevant breakout articles. I have frequetly been an opponent of WP:RECENTISM, but per @MastCell: this is Mt. Vesuvius rumbling. If Trump chickens out or loses decisively we will adjust the article text accordingly, but we do need to exercise some informed realistic judgment. This is not just bleach at Covid TV presser. The campaign has retained hundreds of attorneys who are reported by The Atlantic and others to be preparing to game the election laws. That comes on top of DeJoy. That's on top of other RS-documented voter suppression schemes. WP:ONUS does not confer a veto on one or two editors in the absence of a compelling argument. I don't see any. Finally, I think this content is very much a propos for his biography. It is so far outside of norms and precedents that it speaks directly to him as a person rather than a functioning civic leader. SPECIFICO talk 23:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Stating a position is not a "veto", in intent or effect, and it's not for you or anyone else to declare that opposing arguments are not compelling and should be disqualified. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:52, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Not helpful. Please do as I have, and speak to the merits. SPECIFICO talk 00:03, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

It's more than helpful, it's essential. It's also not for you or anyone else to dictate the parameters of discussion. I have stated my position above (articulated at some length in the diff) and I have not been swayed by subsequent discussion. I'm sorry-not-sorry that you find that inconvenient, but that's how Misplaced Pages works. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:13, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

• The reverted material was speculation in an already unwieldy article; therefore, UNDUE and/or WP:CRYSTAL. We really need to be more cautious and avoid RECENTISM. This material also brings to mind similar unwarranted fear that was expressed by Democrats in 2016 when Trump responded to a similar question asked by HRC. According to the NYTimes, she called his response "horrifying". Looking at it retrospectively, it was all rather ironic. Also keep in mind that neither Trump nor any other sitting president has the power to do anything like that in the first place, so inclusion brings WP down to the level of clickbait media when we should be striving for encyclopedic quality. It is also partisan because it is the fear of most Democrats according to The Guardian, which also states, "Conversely, two in five (41%) Trump voters are worried that Biden will lose but not concede, as opposed to one in four Biden voters (28%)." If it is presented in that manner, which is actually compliant with NPOV, I probably wouldn't object, but that doesn't make it anymore DUE or less CRYSTAL. _Talk 📧 02:44, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

It's not speculation when Trump himself has made those comments. -- Calidum 02:56, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

😂 When there's an "IF" involved, it's conditional, a presumption, a supposition; therefore, it's speculation. It has not yet happened, and there is a 50-50 chance that it will not happen. _Talk 📧 03:07, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Mostly irrelevant comments made by the article subject. Certainly doesn't belong on this article at least. Another reason that editors should try not to let their personal feelings on the news of the day impact their writing. WP:NOTNEWS. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Ongoing significance

This does not seem to be going away. Extensive coverage after yesterday's debate. SPECIFICO talk 01:01, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

"Slow" COVID-19 reaction in the lead

ORIGINAL EDIT SUGGESTION: "The sentence, 'Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic' should be removed. “Slowly” is a relative term and is used without proper context, rendering it an ambiguous sentence and, likely, misleading in this case."

HAKO9 RESPONDED: "see the discussion on this talk page above. There is a broad consensus among editors for inclusion of the descriptor with backing from sources , , , , , , to list a few.” (talk) 05:14, 4 September 2020 (UTC).

MY RESPONSE TO HAKO9’S RESPONSE: COVID-19 is a novel coronavirus. "A novel coronavirus is a new coronavirus that has not been previously identified," according to the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html). With my original edit suggestion in mind, one cannot unambiguously describe Trump’s reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic as “slow” since there is nothing to which his reaction can be compared. Describing Trump’s reaction as “slow” is based on flawed reasoning and no encyclopedia can be taken seriously when it's founded on unsound information. Also, all but one of those sources are liberal biased according to https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/, invalidating their opinions and authority. Ktg.jr.md (talk) 07:41, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

OP refers to this discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:28, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Wow. Your argument is so full of holes, I'm not sure where to start. This is largely because you lack knowledge of Misplaced Pages content policies and guidelines, but you don't seem to have much awareness of that. And partly because you're simply careless about your facts.

• While editor reasoning plays a part, Misplaced Pages's primary criterion for inclusion is what reliable sources say. Therefore Describing Trump’s reaction as "slow" is based on flawed reasoning is itself flawed reasoning when you're on a Misplaced Pages talk page. If a majority of reliable sources call it slow (or say similar things), we can call it slow whether you or anybody else agrees with them or not.
• all but one of those sources are liberal biased according to https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ - Incorrect. That site rates those six sources as follows:
  • Time - left-center
  • NPR - left-center
  • Politico - least biased
  • KHN (Kaiser Family Foundation) - least biased
  • AP News (Associated Press) - least biased
  • New York Times - left-center
• Can you produce six sources rated that close to center who contradict those sources?
• Ad Fontes Media produces widely respected media bias charts and also rates those sources highly over all. Can you produce a widely respected media bias analysis that does not?
• invalidating their opinions and authority - Incorrect, per WP:BIASED. If we invalidated biased sources, there would be no reliable sources left. If you think "your" sources are unbiased, you should take a very hard look at your own bias.
• Five of those six sources are listed as "generally reliable" at WP:RSP based on past Misplaced Pages discussions (the sixth, KHN, is not listed there; see WP:RSPMISSING). This is ultimately how we judge the reliability of sources, not by ad hoc discussions on article talk pages. You may discuss the reliability of a source at WP:RSN, but I wouldn't advise it unless you have far stronger arguments than you have presented here.
• Misplaced Pages editors have weighed all factors and reached a consensus for the language currently in the article. That is how Misplaced Pages works, and the acceptance of consensuses we disagree with is a routine and frequent part of Misplaced Pages editing. Please respect the process. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:50, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Media Bias/Fact Check is not a reliable source. All major media except Fox News lie near the center of the U.S. political spectrum. Until that changes, most of the news sources used in articles will be centrist. Furthermore, Trump's slow response is a matter of fact, not opinion. Experts can compare his actions with what they advised at the time and what other nations did, as well as look at government response to previous pandemics. They can also cite infection, hospitalization and death rates compared to other nations. The U.S. is in the top ten of over 200 countries, despite the pandemic arriving later than other countries with high infection rates. TFD (talk) 09:08, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

"Slow" is still an opinion, even if it is expert opinion. If it's a notable and reliable opinion, it should be included in that context, not as fact. Onetwothreeip (talk) 04:32, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Adding neutrality to COVID-19 response in the fourth paragraph of this article

To keep neutrality in this article, I believe the words of "Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing" should be changed. Something along the lines of "Trump had instituted policies to mitigate the threat of COVID-19 including (insert policies here). Many have criticized Trump, stating he acted slowly, he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments." The current state of the aforementioned line has had some controversies about it not being truly neutral on the matter, as well as not adding any of the polices he did enact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by State College CONELRAD (talk • contribs) 20:09, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

See the discussion immediately above. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:58, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Verbatim Trump quotes

@Soibangla: You restored your text–including the Trump quote–with the edit summary that it is "important context." I can live with your opinion that it's necessary to spell out why Trump believes it's important to get his nominee confirmed immediately but is repeating his verbal flatulence du jour encyclopedic? The sentence works just as well without to overcome "this scam that the Democrats are pulling". And this edit this edit is pretty much repeating every lie he's uttered about his non-existent America First Health Care Plan. If anywhere, it should go into the Donald Trump 2020 presidential campaign article because that joke of an executive order is nothing but empty campaign blather, probably written by Stephen Miller after Trump was made to shut up by that terrific lady at the townhall. I'm pretty sure that your intention wasn't to promote Trump's "vision" but that's what the paragraph does. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC) @Soibangla: Sorry about that, wrong link. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I removed the paragraph about the Trump's new health-care plan that isn't really a plan. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 07:16, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

@PackMecEng: My bad. Not what I meant. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

This article is stale

Much of the content has remained static for literally years and it needs a major refresh. I'm attempting to do that, and now I see someone wants to take it all out. I suggest we need to talk about an overhaul here to prioritize and update the content. soibangla (talk) 00:48, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

This article has over 3,000 page watchers. I don't think any attempt to do a "major refresh" or "overhaul" will meet with success unless any substantial changes are proposed on the talk page. There are 122 pages of talk page archives. Changes are thoroughly discussed! Liz 01:05, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I'd say most truly biographical content is static for literally years – that's the nature of biography. But, if we're talking about an overhaul, I fully support an overhaul that removes much of the detail about his presidency and surrounding domestic and foreign relations and policy issues. This article does not need 487 words about "ISIS, Syria, and Afghanistan", for example, and other articles are better suited for that kind of information. I would expect to find that in a biography in book form, but we have far less space to work with here. As of this comment, the article is at 125% of the size at which it "Almost certainly should be divided" per guidelines, and growing. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:20, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

If you are just talking about moving content from this page to another Trump-related page, I think you'll have more success than proposing a complete rewrite. Liz 01:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I haven't checked, but I assume most/all of this is already in those other articles. If it isn't, it becomes even harder to justify here. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:27, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Mandruss has said what I would have said. This article should be about Donald Trump, not four years of American political history. The article should also not be a catalogue of random quotes from or about the subject. Onetwothreeip (talk) 01:55, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I am not seeing any political history except with Trump at the center, i.e. bio-worthy. SPECIFICO talk 02:11, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Not everything that has Trump at the center is bio-worthy. Trying to reconnect (talk) 02:29, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

• I wonder if the "Investigations" and "Impeachment" sections can be updated. I believe they are largely concluded.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:35, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

2000 president run

2000 president run AlexHilzim (talk) 03:23, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Nobel peace nominations

Should we add section about his 3 nominations for the Nobel Peace Prize?7rexkrilla (talk) 13:49, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

No. A nomination means nothing; almost anyone can submit a nomination to the Nobel Committee for almost any reason. Trump has been known to solicit nominations. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:19, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Why are you lying (on the internet)?. Show me three examples of trump soliciting nominations. Also you have to fulfull specific criteria to submit a nomination for the nobel peace prize. The criteria is public and can be found on the website of the nobel prize comitee, but I'll post it here for ease of access.

According to the statutes of the Nobel Foundation, a nomination is considered valid if it is submitted by a person who falls within one of the following categories:

Members of national assemblies and national governments (cabinet members/ministers) of sovereign states as well as current heads of states

Members of The International Court of Justice in The Hague and The Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague

Members of l’Institut de Droit International

Members of the international board of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom

University professors, professors emeriti and associate professors of history, social sciences, law, philosophy, theology, and religion; university rectors and university directors (or their equivalents); directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes

Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize

Members of the main board of directors or its equivalent of organizations that have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize

Current and former members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee (proposals by current members of the Committee to be submitted no later than at the first meeting of the Committee after 1 February)

Former advisers to the Norwegian Nobel Committee 7rexkrilla (talk) 10:00, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Paragraphing of the lead section

User:Davide King changed the paragraphing of the lead section, by combining the first paragraph (two sentences saying he is president and before that was a businessman and television personality) with the second paragraph (about his early life and business ventures). I have changed it back to the longstanding version pending discussion here. I can understand the rationale for the change (a short paragraph of only two sentences would generally be frowned upon, and the change gives us a four paragraph lead instead of five). On the other hand, for such a highly visible and much-visited article (tens of thousands of views per day), it may make sense to set off what he is currently known for clearly and up front. The wording of the two sentences in the lead paragraph has been endlessly debated and now requires consensus to make any change at all. The short first paragraph has been in place for a long time - years - and IMO it would require consensus to change it. Thoughts? -- MelanieN (talk) 16:24, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

The status quo works better for me, and I can't begin to articulate why that is. While two-sentence paragraphs might be avoided as a general rule, I have absolutely no problem with a two-sentence first paragraph of a biography. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:48, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I prefer the longstanding version. If the other paragraphs were equally short I would think again, but having such a brief opening paragraph is actually preferable in this instance. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:33, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

For readers who have never heard of him, the first two sentences answer the question, "Who is Donald Trump?". The subsequent material is the beginning of our description of his life; that being a distinctly different kind of content, a paragraph break makes sense from a writing standpoint. I don't think it should matter that few readers have never heard of him; it's just a good way to start any Misplaced Pages biography in my opinion. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:17, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Well said. This makes sense for him and for most biographies. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Info from the recent NYT article in the lead?

I see that two referenced sentences have been added to the lead’s second paragraph, about Sunday’s NYT articles reporting information gleaned from his tax returns. It is in the article too, of course, as required for something to be in the lead: a subsection has been opened under the "Business career" section, and a rather shaky sentence has been added to the "Wealth" section. I certainly agree with putting this in the article text, and I predict the material will be expanded as additional NYT articles are published. If secondary sources other than NYT report it heavily, or if it becomes a major election issue, it may well become important enough to include in the lead. However, I question adding this to the lead right away, especially two sentences (overkill) with references (we have avoided using references in the lead) based on a single source published only yesterday (NOTNEWS). I suspect this was put in the lead based on editors' opinions of how important the information is, rather than on the weight of coverage by Reliable Sources. I have not reverted this addition, but I would like to hear what other people think. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:07, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I think it should stay out of lead for now soibangla (talk) 18:19, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

There is no hurry for wikipedia to include this, so keep it out of the lede and just wait for whatever happens next. Carptrash (talk) 18:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I have removed it from the lead for now. Discussion can continue. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:02, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

What about net worth?

I added this. The rationale was that since his wealth figures are disputed (and have been for years), the NYT piece would serve as an important bit of balance. I'm fine waiting for more coverage, but I'd like some sort of "caveat lector" around the Forbes estimate in the lead. François Robere (talk) 23:20, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I think the net worth figure should be removed. It has long been dubious, but it is no longer credible or DUE especially for a BLP. SPECIFICO talk 00:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

For the lead, I'd sooner remove net worth than attempt to qualify it. If we feel the need to get that deep in the weeds, that's generally a sign that the issue is too complex to be adequately covered within the space constraints of the lead. But I'd be ok with leaving it low in the infobox. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:03, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

NYT reports: " report that Mr. Trump owns hundreds of millions of dollars in valuable assets, but they do not reveal his true wealth." If Trump owns gross assets of hundreds of millions, it's hard to see how he could have a net worth of $2.1 billion considering his debt load. Forbes et al. attempt to make estimates about an opaque private company, and it may make for fine entertainment, but I find it dubious guesswork. I think the whole thing is too fuzzy to even mention. soibangla (talk) 22:16, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@François Robere, SPECIFICO, Mandruss, and Soibangla: This sounds to me like consensus to remove the "net worth" sentence from the lead. And possibly from the infobox also? -- MelanieN (talk) 22:45, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes to removal from the lead prose, no objection to removal from the infobox. @François Robere, SPECIFICO, Mandruss, and Soibangla: Repeating the pings, since notifications don't work when you add them after the fact. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:55, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Let's remove both. SPECIFICO talk 02:54, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks for pinging. François Robere (talk) 10:38, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, both should come out. soibangla (talk) 17:39, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for removing them, François. And thanks for the re-pings, Mandruss. My bad; I just spaced. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:12, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

This edit is not "superfluous"

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Donald_Trump&curid=4848272&diff=980866170&oldid=980865795

It corrects some significant flaws of the paragraph and should be restored

soibangla (talk) 22:47, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Treaties between Israel and UAE/Bahrain in the lead

"In foreign policy, Trump has pursued an America First agenda, withdrawing the U.S. from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade negotiations, the Paris Agreement on climate change, and the Iran nuclear deal. He imposed import tariffs which triggered a trade war with China, moved the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, and withdrew U.S. troops from northern Syria." Would it be appropriate to add the US-mediated Bahrain–Israel normalization agreement and Israel–United Arab Emirates normalization agreement? As such, it would read "In foreign policy, Trump has pursued an America First agenda, withdrawing the U.S. from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade negotiations, the Paris Agreement on climate change, and the Iran nuclear deal. He imposed import tariffs which triggered a trade war with China, moved the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, withdrew U.S. troops from northern Syria, and oversaw the normalization of relations between Israel and the United Arab Emirates & Bahrain." thorpewilliam (talk) 07:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

It can be added. However, "America First" is marketing blurb which we should either qualify ("what he refers to as...") or replace with proper terms ("isolationist policies"). François Robere (talk) 14:31, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

No, it isn't appropriate, neither for the lead nor the body. "Oversaw?" Trump hosted a signing ceremony for three documents whose contents haven't been disclosed (). Israel had been "normalizing" relations with the UAE and Bahrain for years before Trump took office. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:22, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

It is appropriate and significant definitely for the body at least., (noting here that this is was an "improbable diplomatic victory for Trump"), .--MONGO (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I think so, too, MONGO, and I tend to agree that we have waaaay too much presidential trivia in this BLP that belongs in the Presidency of article as noted by ValarianB below, along with many other editors who have expressed concerns over the size of this article. I'm pretty confident that it will be trimmed down considerably after the election, not unlike what we've seen in all the other BLPs of presidents. There is so much trivia/rhetoric/speculation/opinion in this article now that I seriously doubt our readers get past the lead; unwieldy is an understatement. What will this BLP look like if he is elected for a 2nd term? _Talk 📧 22:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

This has precious little to do with Trump personally. Use it in Presidency of Donald Trump. ValarianB (talk) 18:13, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

It's in the presidency article where it belongs. The main reason this is an "improbable diplomatic victory for Trump" is because it could not have happened if Trump had stuck with the approval of West Bank annexation contained in the Kushner plan in January: "The proposal gives American approval to Israel’s plan to redefine the country’s borders and formally annex settlements in the West Bank." They had to do a 180 on that to get this deal. It was a serendipitous accomplishment that was in spite of their polices, rather than because of them. soibangla (talk) 23:22, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

"America First" needs to be qualified or replaced with neutral language, but those particular treaties do not belong in this article as they have almost nothing to do with Donald Trump. I would also be sceptical of them belonging in the presidency article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:40, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I added it. I should note that the "America First" descriptor is in the previous sentence, not the one where this was inserted into. thorpewilliam (talk) 09:43, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

This discussion does not support adding it to the lead, and I've reverted you. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:58, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Mandruss I didn't require approval before enacting the edit, though I did seek it and found several people to agree. thorpewilliam (talk) 10:03, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Which several people? For the lead, the only support I see is from François Robere. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:10, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I've changed my mind. Move to Presidency of Donald Trump per ValarianB, add context to reflect Space4Time3Continuum2x's concerns. François Robere (talk) 10:50, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

François Robere (formerly), MONGO & Atsme. Regards, thorpewilliam (talk) 11:21, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I think you're reading MONGO and Atsme incorrectly. Even if you're reading them correctly, that would make it four for, four against, which hardly constitutes a consensus to include anywhere in the encyclopedia, let alone the lead of this article. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:28, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

You can add my opposition per my usual objection to that much presidency-related content in the lead, which currently devotes 77% of its space to 7% of his life, in an article that is not specifically about his presidency. That's excessive, and the last thing we need is to make it more excessive. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:39, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

This doesn't rise to the level of importance requiring inclusion in the lead. Neutrality 18:02, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

It should be added to the lead intro.Editing Scapegoat (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Why User:Editing Scapegoat, seems pretty trivial, and rings of recentism. I'm also concerned, as some of your posts suggest you harbour anti-Muslim racism. Nfitz (talk) 21:54, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Let's at Least be Consistent with Obama's Lead Section

Do me a favor, go read Barack Obama's lead section, and then read Trump's. Do you notice a difference in tone or attitude? Do you get the feeling that Obama is some sort of political genius, whereas Trump is the spawn of Cthulhu? If you do, you're not alone. Whitewashing Trump's record is the last thing I want to do, but could we at least pretend to follow Misplaced Pages's policy of a neutral point of view? I know full objectivity is a lost cause, so I won't press it. But allow me to suggest a few corrections for the lead section so we can be consistent with President Obama:

• I couldn't help but notice that Obama has numerous pieces of legislation that he signed listed in his lead:
  • "Obama signed many landmark bills into law during his first two years in office. The main reforms that were passed include the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act...the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, and the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act of 2010. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 and Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010."
• This is great! Signing bills into law and policymaking is a pretty important part of a president's record. Unfortunately, Trump's lead only makes a brief mention of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. How about we mention some of Trump's major bipartisan laws, such as the Great American Outdoors Act, the Enhancing Veteran Care Act, the First Step Act, the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, etc. Or we could make note of the nearly 200 Executive Orders Trump signed. And, perhaps I'm wrong, but I think mentioning the biggest spending bill in American history--the CARES Act--is worthy enough for the lead section.

• Let's take out Trump's 'ideological descriptors' in the lead ("Trump's political positions have been described as populist, protectionist, and nationalist"). There is zero mention of Obama's ideological persuasions in his lead. If you want to add such descriptors in Obama's lead, by all means--but that's an argument for the Obama talk page.

• Let's add the killings of Soleimani and Baghdadi. Obama's lead clearly notes that Obama "ordered the military operations that resulted in the deaths of Osama bin Laden and suspected Yemeni Al-Qaeda operative Anwar al-Awlaki."

• Obama's lead credits him with brokering numerous foreign policy agreements/treaties such as the Paris Climate Agreement, the JCPOA, and the normalized relations with Cuba. Most of Trump's foreign policy agreements listed in his lead appear to be only the ones that are in the 'negative' (i.e., Trump withdrew from the Paris Climate Agreement, he withdrew from the JCPOA, and he withdrew from the Trans-Pacific Partnership). Let's counterbalance these examples with foreign policy deals that work in the 'positive'. For example, we could include the implementation of USMCA and the Israel-UEA Peace Deal (this is not to say that these deals were good or bad, but simply they worked to expand or create certain objectives, rather than rescind them). Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 10:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk • contribs) 10:03, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

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