Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by QuackGuru (talk | contribs) at 19:39, 3 January 2007 (→[]: a valuable tool). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

List of articles related to quackery

List of articles related to quackery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Fundamental issues with point of view, verification and self references. The list should be deleted or moved to project namespace such as WikiProject Pseudoscience.

• This unsourced list uses weasel words to tarnish various topics and people with the pejorative term "quack" by stating that some people consider these things "related to" quackery. Discussions on the talk page indicate an unwillingness to provide evidence for an article's inclusion in the list, an explanation of the reasons, or a grouping of list articles in the belief that that would indicate a POV.
• The attribute "quack" is in essence an opinion rather than a hard fact. Opinions must be attributed to a source worth quoting. A list of opinions solely of those who support e.g. evidence based medicine over alternative medicine (no matter how worthy those opinions might be), would make an inherently POV list.
• Misplaced Pages self references abound in the title, lead paragraph, lists of wikiprojects, lists of categories and wikipedians.
• The inclusion criteria of "related to quackery" is vague and potentially unbounded. The Royal London Homeopathic Hospital is part of the UK National Health Service. Does that mean the NHS is related to quackery? The list currently includes such everyday terms as "dishonesty", "fraud", "ethics", "honesty", "liability" and terms related to logical arguments.
• The list contains living persons without supporting sources and as such fouls WP:BLP.
• The list is already showing signs of becoming a fertile ground for edit wars as editors battle over how much a practice/substance/person is considered mainstream or quack.

Colin° 16:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The list is very careful to not express any opinion either way on any subject. No labelliing is being used for very obvious reasons. Any POV problems are in the eyes and thoughts of the beholder. This list is an attempt to avoid the problems that were involved with the now deleted quackery category, where the cat. tag was attached to articles without any comment, thus labelling the article. The editor above has misunderstood and misrepresented what is happening, and any conflicts will be because the concept is hated, and because editors will be tempted to include labeling and POV. Such labelling should not be allowed, and such editorial errors are not a legitimate reason for deleting the list. The list contains strong cautionary notes only visible in the editing mode. I suggest that anyone who investigates this matter read them before making any decision.

This list is a resource for students of the subject and even a casual examination of the content (something the editor above seems not to have done) shows that there are subjects, organizations, and persons on all sides of the issues. None of them are labeled as to their particular affiliation with the subject. Their respective articles can do that. This list is not for labelling anyone, and the attempt to delete it is an editorial attempt to suppress what is seen as opposing POV, in spite of the fact that such POV is not attached to any item on the list. Let readers come to their own conclusions.

Misplaced Pages is for presenting all major POV, and significant minority POV -- without taking sides -- and the articles listed are representative of subjects of interest to debunkers as well as promoters of quackery. Editorial POV suppression is a violation of NPOV policy and should not be allowed here. The concept of quackery is very real, it exists, and it is unpopular with those who believe in it. They would love to delete the word and attempts to expose quackery. Such attempts should not be allowed to move from the real world and into Misplaced Pages. The list is still in its beginnings and it should be allowed to develop and strengthen as a valuable resource. -- Fyslee 16:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the personal accusations of carelessness in my examination of the content or that I'm trying to suppress a POV. Both accusations are wrong. There is a belief that by keeping silent on the reasons for an article's inclusion in this list that POV can be avoided. This is false for two reasons:

1. For people and organisations to be "related to quackery" they pretty much have to be involved in quackery or a campaigner opposed to it. The reader is not given the option of "neither involved in nor campainging against quackery" (i.e. "quietly involved in mainstream medicine"). Therefore an opinion is being advanced that requires sourcing.
2. For treatments and practices to be "related to quackery", the logical conclusion the reader will make is that someone thinks they (wholely or partly) are considered quackery. I can't see any other conclusion, but perhaps I "misunderstand" this too? Colin° 18:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. I think this is a very valuable list. Bubba73 (talk), 17:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment I see nothing wrong with it being a list of articles. I use List of chess topics almost daily. Bubba73 (talk), 18:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Move to project space. This is not fundamentally an encyclopedic topic; it's a maintenance/navigation aid. Lists in main space are not an acceptable alternative to contested category designations.--ragesoss 17:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Obvious Delete. Delineated quite clearly by Colin above. A ‘commies’ list is a bad idea in that those with self-serving POV/agendas obviously intentionally exploit it. Instead of creating an environment of collaboration and community, this immediately polarizes Wikipedians so edit wars break out.

This hijacking of Misplaced Pages for personal satisfaction of a few does nothing but create ill will and wastes valuable time and energy for many, all in the name of hard-fisting a personal POV in our faces. Good editors are eventually discouraged from continued participation and leave in exasperation. It is obviously a smokescreen by a few editors to exploit the popularity of Misplaced Pages to further their own self-serving interests.

Clearly, this has no place in Misplaced Pages and should be deleted ASAP.

Steth 18:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Um tricky. Thing is, criticisms of the article are definitely valid, but so is support. A move to project space has definite merit, and it would be better to have more prose and less of a laundry list (which tends by its nature to imply equal weight for all entries, which is not properly the case). The idea is sound, but possibly not as a mainspace article. Probably move to project space maybe as the foundation of a WikiProject. God knows we need to start chipping away at the puffery of quack remedies and other scams. Guy (Help!) 18:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete Using a perjorative term (quack) violates Misplaced Pages's core of NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hughgr (talk • contribs).

• Move to project space. "Lists of articles" are better placed outside the article space, and POV issues would not be criticial there. For the future, I recommend using List of groups referred to as cults as a model for how a list of quackery-related topics could be created in a verifable, NPOV manner. We require a reliable source for every entry in acordance with a strict criteria. That list has been remarkably stable despite the contentious nature of the topic . -Will Beback · † · 19:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly Keep. This is a valuable tool and resource for reading, investigating, and understanding many different topics on the subject of related in some way to quackery. It does not mean the subject is quackery. Just a relation to it. Both sides of the issues are present in the main articles. The list is the only way for students to resource so many different articles. Without this list it would be impossible to find and research the subject. I hope Wikipedians understand this list is an educational tool for readers of the subject. Perhaps, any misunderstanding are now cleared up. Additionally, there is a strong disclamer paragraph at the top explaining about the list does not define the article or subject as a quack, just a relation to it in some way. The reader can read any article and can easily come to their own conlusions. Again, the list is an extremely helpful educational tool. Possibly, expanding the first paragraph will avoid any more misunderstandings in the future. On that note. This is an article listing. Nothing more. Lists on Misplaced Pages is encouraged. Cheers. --QuackGuru 19:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

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