Misplaced Pages

Misplaced Pages is for presenting all major POV, and significant minority POV -- without taking sides -- and the articles listed are representative of subjects of interest to debunkers as well as promoters of quackery. Editorial POV suppression is a violation of NPOV policy and should not be allowed here. The concept of quackery is very real, it exists, and it is unpopular with those who believe in it. They would love to delete the word and attempts to expose quackery. Such attempts should not be allowed to move from the real world and into Misplaced Pages. The list is still in its beginnings and it should be allowed to develop and strengthen as a valuable resource. -- Fyslee 16:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the personal accusations of carelessness in my examination of the content or that I'm trying to suppress a POV. Both accusations are wrong. There is a belief that by keeping silent on the reasons for an article's inclusion in this list that POV can be avoided. This is false for two reasons:

1. For people and organisations to be "related to quackery" they pretty much have to be involved in quackery or a campaigner opposed to it. The reader is not given the option of "neither involved in nor campainging against quackery" (i.e. "quietly involved in mainstream medicine"). Therefore an opinion is being advanced that requires sourcing.

1. For treatments and practices to be "related to quackery", the logical conclusion the reader will make is that someone thinks they (wholely or partly) are considered quackery. I can't see any other conclusion, but perhaps I "misunderstand" this too? Colin° 18:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for what is taken as a personal attack. I was indeed irritated by what still appears to be a "reading into" the list of something that is deliberately avoided, which is the idea of providing labels, which would indeed create serious NPOV issues. Even without any labelling and with very strong cautions against it in the editorial notes (invisible to readers) and talk page, there are still attacks (from many) based on what appears to be an assumption that such labelling is actually occurring, yet no one can point to evidence of such. If fact it is repeatedly discouraged. Even if it might not be outright stated (above) to be the case (and it seems to to me to be outright stated), readers who don't see the list itself will likely get the impression that POV labelling is actually occurring, which is not the case. I just want to make sure no one comes away from reading the AFD nomination above with that false impression. I will exercise good faith and assume that that was not Colin's intention, but that is the impression I got, and I know the content and cautionary messages very well! If I got that impression, how many others coming here will still get that impression, and then vote accordingly? I'm sure it wasn't Collin's intention, but maybe he could revise the wording to avoid that implication? (Unfortunately voting is already occurring based on a false impression, and even attempting to convey a false impression independently of the AFD nomination above.) -- Fyslee 19:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. I think this is a very valuable list. Bubba73 (talk), 17:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment I see nothing wrong with it being a list of articles. I use List of chess topics almost daily. Bubba73 (talk), 18:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Move to project space. This is not fundamentally an encyclopedic topic; it's a maintenance/navigation aid. Lists in main space are not an acceptable alternative to contested category designations.--ragesoss 17:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Obvious Delete. Delineated quite clearly by Colin above. A ‘commies’ list is a bad idea in that those with self-serving POV/agendas obviously intentionally exploit it. Instead of creating an environment of collaboration and community, this immediately polarizes Wikipedians so edit wars break out.

This hijacking of Misplaced Pages for personal satisfaction of a few does nothing but create ill will and wastes valuable time and energy for many, all in the name of hard-fisting a personal POV in our faces. Good editors are eventually discouraged from continued participation and leave in exasperation. It is obviously a smokescreen by a few editors to exploit the popularity of Misplaced Pages to further their own self-serving interests.

Clearly, this has no place in Misplaced Pages and should be deleted ASAP.

Steth 18:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yet another gross exercise of bad faith and another personal attack by User:Steth (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Nothing new here from a very biased editor with a grudge against me and anyone who dares to confront quackery and fraud. Let's see now, an anti-anti-quackery person is a ... hmmm ... to figure it out one must account for the double negative, which equals a positive ....;-) -- Fyslee 19:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Um tricky. Thing is, criticisms of the article are definitely valid, but so is support. A move to project space has definite merit, and it would be better to have more prose and less of a laundry list (which tends by its nature to imply equal weight for all entries, which is not properly the case). The idea is sound, but possibly not as a mainspace article. Probably move to project space maybe as the foundation of a WikiProject. God knows we need to start chipping away at the puffery of quack remedies and other scams. Guy (Help!) 18:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete Using a perjorative term (quack) violates Misplaced Pages's core of NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hughgr (talk • contribs).

That's a false charge. No one has used the term about anything or anyone on that list. It's a mixed bag and if readers supply the term in their own head, that is their own doing. In real life one can with impunity (in the USA) call anyone a quack without any legal consequences. That has been decided in court. I'm not recommending one do so without evidence, but that's the case. Free speech allows pejoratives, and since the concept is a serious issue that costs people their lives and money, it is far more than a mere pejorative, but a term describing a serious problem that should not be disparaged and ignored. The government (especially the FDA and FTC) certainly recognizes it as a problem, and deals with it within certain limits. It is in that sense (not as a pejorative) that it is used here at Misplaced Pages, and whenever I rarely use the term about anyone. It is then a descriptive term for actual behavior that can be documented, and not a careless pejorative. (There are a select few scammers for whom I reserve the term.) When others perceive the use as being a pejorative, it is often because they feel hit, which reveals their own self-described position on the subject. I can't say if that's the case here, but that's often how it is with many objectors, and that is not my fault, or the fault of the list, or of the term. -- Fyslee 20:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Move to project space. "Lists of articles" are better placed outside the article space, and POV issues would not be criticial there. For the future, I recommend using List of groups referred to as cults as a model for how a list of quackery-related topics could be created in a verifable, NPOV manner. We require a reliable source for every entry in acordance with a strict criteria. That list has been remarkably stable despite the contentious nature of the topic . -Will Beback · † · 19:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly Keep. This is a valuable tool and resource for reading, investigating, and understanding many different topics on the subject of related in some way to quackery. It does not mean the subject is quackery. Just a relation to it. Both sides of the issues are present in the main articles. The list is the only way for students to resource so many different articles. Without this list it would be impossible to find and research the subject. I hope Wikipedians understand this list is an educational tool for readers of the subject. Perhaps, any misunderstanding are now cleared up. Additionally, there is a strong disclamer paragraph at the top explaining about the list does not define the article or subject as a quack, just a relation to it in some way. The reader can read any article and can easily come to their own conlusions. Again, the list is an extremely helpful educational tool. Possibly, expanding the first paragraph will avoid any more misunderstandings in the future. On that note. This is an article listing. Nothing more. Lists on Misplaced Pages is encouraged. Cheers. --QuackGuru 19:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment The "List of related to quackery" is an excellent representation of all sides of the topic. An Indispensible Resource! --QuackGuru 20:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)