Talk:Michael Collins (Irish leader)

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Death section

I have made some changes to this section. Firstly the last sentence reading "Writers on the subject such as J. Feehan and S.M. Sigerson have called for a full forensic examination of Collins's remains in order to attempt to settle at least some of these controversies concerning his end". While some may point out this is one of the few sourced sentences in the section, I will counter by saying its inclusion at present makes no sense. The section does not detail any "controversies" which may need settling. My second change is to move the opening paragraph to the end of the section. I believe immediately introducing conspiracy theories (which for the record are not even mentioned, leaving the reader perplexed as to what they actually are) is inappropriate, and is best done after detailing what appear to be the undisputed facts of his death. 2A02:C7D:3CAF:D900:A15E:5B06:D036:6F58 (talk) 16:32, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree. --Red King (talk) 20:54, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed as well. Squatch347 (talk) 13:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Strongly agreed too Heshs Umpire (talk) 12:34, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Reverted photograph

The reasoning does not make sense. Did the reverted image not identify Collins? It did not obscure his face or body, and in fact it was sharper, higher in resolution, and had higher photographic quality. Most other language versions of Misplaced Pages use that photograph as well Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 10:03, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

S.M. Sigerson

What makes this person any kind of authority on the death of Michael Collins? Their book appears to be self-published thus failing WP:SPS, so I intend to remove it unless evidence of reliability can be provided. I note @Scolaire: was particularly scathing regarding this person at Talk:Michael Collins (Irish leader)/Archive 3#Killed. FDW777 (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I have removed this book. FDW777 (talk) 12:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Terrorist

Shouldn't the article mention the fact that he was a terrorist? (JamesFergus1 (talk) 13:09, 21 November 2020 (UTC))

Do you have a source? WP:UNSOURCED ~ Ablaze (talk) 06:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-11-mn-5909-story.html (JamesFergus1 (talk) 12:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC))

One sentence - "To some he was a freedom fighter, to others a terrorist" - from a thirty year old American newspaper cannot be used as a source to state Collins was a terrorist. Please read up on some Misplaced Pages policies: WP:V, WP:RS, WP:DUE, WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORIST would be good starting points. Bastun 15:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

There are numerous other sources: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/COLLINS-TERRORIST-AS-HERO-3117609.php (JamesFergus1 (talk) 21:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

So after your thirty year old American newspaper is objected to you respond with a film review from a 24 year old America newspaper? Laughable. FDW777 (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Collins died a century ago. Why does it matter how old the sources are? (JamesFergus1 (talk) 21:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

Age is irrelevant. A film review is a reference for a film, not the subject of a film. FDW777 (talk) 21:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I see you also didn't bother with the links @Bastun: left for you. In particular I suggest you read WP:TERRORIST, especially the part about in-text attribution being required. I also suggest you read WP:LEAD, especially how the lead summarises the article so doesn't (or shouldn't, just in case this lead isn't currently 100% compliant) include things not mentioned elsewhere. FDW777 (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

The lede of Osama bin Laden's article says he was described as a terrorist, so there should be mention of this in the article on Michael Collins. He deliberately chose not to fight using conventional methods, despite the objections of de Valera. (JamesFergus1 (talk) 22:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

References

Would anyone object if the book references were converted to Harvard style citations? An example of how they work can be see at Battle of Pontvallain#References. At the moment they are a complete mish-mash of different formats, so it's impossible to even say which, if any, is the current style used in this article.

Also, there are many references that need to be removed. I do not feel like delving through the history to see who is responsible, but it appears that whoever was responsible cited the primary sources that were cited by the secondaryu sources (that's books, generally speaking). That's why there are citations with insufficient information such as;

British Cabinet minutes, memoranda
MC official correspondence, 5 and 10 April 1922
Michael Collins letter to Churchill 6 June 1922
Michael Collins – Winston Churchill correspondence June 1922
Public Records Office, Dublin
Michael Collins field diary, 22 August 1922

The penultimate one is particularly egregious, how is anyone supposed to know what they are looking for?? FDW777 (talk) 22:07, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

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