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Talk:Gender-critical feminism

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ConsensusThe topic of this article is the ideology or movement known variously in reliable sources as gender-critical feminism (including abbreviated forms such as "GC", "GC feminism") or trans-exclusionary radical feminism (including abbreviated forms such as "TERF ideology", "TERFism" and similar expressions). The two main titles are equivalent. The article was split off from the article Feminist views on transgender topics where the corresponding section is titled "Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism."
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This article was accepted from this draft on 24 June 2023 by reviewer Alpha3031 (talk · contribs).
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On 31 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to trans-exclusionary radical feminism. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
Reference ideas for Gender-critical feminismThe following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
Section sizes
Section size for Gender-critical feminism (34 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 8,331 8,331
Terminology 19 6,539
Trans-exclusionary radical feminism 5,205 5,205
Gender-critical feminism 1,315 1,315
Views 62 36,300
Sex and gender 7,498 7,498
"Sex-based rights" 2,449 2,449
Socialisation and gender nonconformity 5,901 5,901
Gender transition 3,046 3,046
Intersex conditions 4,475 4,475
Sexual orientation 4,993 4,993
Conversion therapy 7,876 7,876
History 15 9,240
Early history (before 2000) 9,225 9,225
By country 126 34,509
Russia 1,067 1,067
South Korea 3,769 3,769
United Kingdom 15,240 29,174
Sex-based rights 4,678 4,678
Legal cases 9,256 9,256
United States 373 373
Analysis 16 21,827
Scholarly analysis 7,535 7,535
Relationship with the anti-gender movement 3,660 3,660
Political alliances with conservatives and the far right 9,899 9,899
Misinformation and disinformation 717 717
Controversies 21 12,628
Academic freedom 6,011 6,011
Conflicts with other feminist and pro-equality groups 5,840 5,840
Social media 756 756
See also 887 887
References 30 30
Further reading 777 777
External links 521 521
Total 131,589 131,589

Vaginism

One of the ways gender-critical feminism is described as is vaginism, due to its undue obsession of vaginas. Can this fact be included in the article? Antivaginist (talk) 17:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have sources to support the use of this word? — Czello 17:50, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Where have you seen this used? Zeno27 (talk) 17:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
This looks like just another term of abuse for feminists. Sweet6970 (talk) 17:53, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
I've never heard of this weird phrase. If there is a contingency of notable GCs who are organising under that term then maybe it could be mentioned but if it is just one or two non-notable people, or its only been going for a few days, or if it is just somebody trolling, then let's not waste our time on it. GC terminology changes on a pretty regular basis anyway and we don't need to keep track of track the more transient/peripheral details, just the main claims and slogans. DanielRigal (talk) 19:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

NPOV

Thread retitled from "NPOV is a super important rule, and I don't think it is operating too well here".

Even if TERFs are assholes -- sure sounds like it -- that should have absolutely zero influence when we write. We want readers to walk away from any article with no clue about what Misplaced Pages itself thinks about the subject. I did not walk away with that impression. There's too much material on criticism. It's quite clear to me, reading the article, that the Misplaced Pages doesn't much like these people. It should not be at all clear.

People coming to any article want to know about the entity. People coming to an article about entity X want to know "What is entity X? Is it a political/cultural movement, or just people writing books and articles? What's it history? When did it start? Is it defunct? Were there precursors? Who are some of the main thinkers and leaders in it? Do they have a political party, and if so do they run candidates, and if so how do they fare? How many adherents? Is it a fringe thing?" Lots of other things like that. Of course criticism should be included, but it should be a distinctly secondary subject.

I get that a lot of editors don't like TERFs, and with good reason I guess, but editors who feel strongly about a fraught subject and can't or don't want to be ice-cold even-handed about it should work on other subjects, not to be harsh but it is what it is. If you can be ice-cold even-handed, that's different. (For instance, I detest Jim Jordan, but I took out a bunch of over-emphasis of attacks on him, because of course how I feel about any entity has nothing to do with my work here. Be like me.)

We don't want to see, let's say, an Israeli chauvinists writing about the Gaza war unless they can put aside any bias. Right? Look at Bolshevism, which is hated by many millions of people. There's plenty to criticize, and it helps put the entity in perspective, and it's important to include, but it's under 10% of the article. "Under 10%" seems like a good goal for any article, granted that might not apply here.

Generally, criticism is not intertwined a whole lot into our exposition on the subject, but rather put in a separate section towards the end called "Criticism" or something. That's not happening here.

There's work to be done. Herostratus (talk) 10:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have specific proposals for alterations to the article? Sweet6970 (talk) 15:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I haven't looked at the article too closely, but just because someone thinks there's too much material on criticism does not mean the article itself is biased. Neutrality on Misplaced Pages means reflecting as fairly as possible the predominant views of published, reliable sources. If coverage in reliable sources happens to be unfavorable to the subject, then the article reflects that. Without pointing to specific sources and how they are used, this complaint seems to be nothing more than personal dislike. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
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