Talk:Stepanakert Airport - Misplaced Pages

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Archives

help request

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Please can someone add the Azerbaijani name in template and introduction. This is concoderee as occupied lands of Azerbaijan. Thanks. xocalı beynəlxalq hava limanı

References

https://www.bbc.com/azeri/azerbaijan/2012/11/121104_hocali_airport_us.shtml

De-jure status

@Archives908: What's wrong with adding the pushpin map of the internationally recognised country the airport is located in? This is the standard procedure with all villages in Nagorno-Karabakh controlled by Armenia, which have maps of both Azerbaijan and Artsakh. Besides, how is this airport in Stepanakert when it's 10km away from the city? It's closer to Khojaly than any other settlement. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:27, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

What's blatantly wrong is you removing Artsakh from the map entirely and altering the lead, without providing any explanation or rationale. You are mistaken if you think that by providing vague (and inaccurate) edit summaries, other editors will not review your edits. "Adding de jure status", should mean adding de jure status. Please learn from this mistake- and say what you mean. Furthermore, this is not a village or town or city. It is an airport, of which, is controlled directly by the Artsakh authorities, the government of Azerbaijan has no authority over the airport itself. Next, often times, regional airports are named after capital cities to which they are located near too. This is not a new phenomenon, but actually quite a common practice - globally. Take Toronto Pearson Airport, although the airport is located in a city called Mississauga Ontario, it is named after the most populated city and the Provincial capital of Toronto and is generally referred to as being located in "Toronto". Again, this is pretty common and nothing new. In this case, (like Toronto Pearson Airport), the Stepanakert Airport was named after the regional capital Stepanakert (despite geographical distance). And finally, if you wish to change any long-standing content to the format or lead, a consensus will need to be established. I welcome other editors feedback. Archives908 (talk) 14:46, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Removing it? Are you sure you reviewed my edit thoroughly before reverting it? I added the Azerbaijani map to it alongside Artsakh's. And I wrote "adding de jure status" because that's exactly what I did in the lead, abiding by the norm set in similar articles relating to Nagorno-Karabakh. Would appreciate it if you explained what part of "de jure inside Azerbaijan, de facto controlled by the self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh" did you think was a "mistake", as you put it? And I'm not trying to rename the article by pointing out what town the airport is closer to. I'm pointing out the fact that Khojaly should be mentioned in the lead since it's the closest town to the airport. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Please do not belittle me by suggesting that I did not review your edit. It is disrespectful and not productive to the overall discussion. I restored the original wording in the lead and the caption- where you did, in fact, remove Artsakh (without providing explanation). I also kept the additions of all the de jure information which you added. And now (suddenly and separately from the de jure topic) you want to include a nearby town close to the airport? Do other airport articles have lists of/include nearby towns, villages, and cities? I am, by no means, an expert on airport articles or how they should be structured but I'm trying to understand the rationale and relevance behind that proposal and how that would be an overall improvement to the topic of the airport itself. It also raises the question whether other villages and towns within the vicinity of the airport should be randomly included? Why/why not? Archives908 (talk) 17:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what part of asking if you reviewed my revert was "belittling". Now you're suggesting I removed Artsakh from the lead? Here's what I made the lead in my edit ""de jure inside Azerbaijan, de facto controlled by the self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh". Perhaps you didn't see that too, or we have a different understanding of what "deleting" means. You kept all de-jure information? You added a simple "de jure in Azerbaijan" and removed mention of Azerbaijan and map of Azerbaijan completely from the infobox. I'm pretty sure that's not "keeping all de jure information". Moving on to the next topic, I don't mind not including it in the lead, but its real location should at least be indicated in the infobox. Though, similar thing for lead have been done for other airports. For example, Washington Dulles International Airport and Ordu–Giresun Airport, where it states its real location and the distance from its namesake town. And sure, if there's a large town like Khojaly closer to the airport, we can include that instead. But as far as I can see, the airport is located right near the town of Khojaly, closer to it than any other village or town. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is belittling when you assume that other editors do not read your edits and make blind statements. It is also peculiar that you keep ignoring my points. So, I will re-write my initial questions again until answered. What is the logic to include nearby towns (especially towns outside of Artsakh)? How does it improve the content of the article? Where do we draw the line on which towns/cities/villages to include and which ones not to include? I pulled up several airports to look for examples, but I can't find any which mention nearby towns for no reason. Also, not sure if you know this or not, but the airport currently does not function, and even if it did, citizens of nearby Azeri towns would not be able to access/utilize the airport as the border is completely closed...making this all very redundant/ not particularly useful or imperative data. Remember, this article is about an airport in Artsakh, which was built to serve the nearby capital city of Stepanakert and respectively named after it. Furthermore, it actually might be a little misleading to start including Azeri towns nearby, as readers could assume that the airport was/is used by Azeri citizens, which is simply not the case. Archives908 (talk) 17:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I believe you're confusing Khojaly with some other town since Khojaly is under Armenian control currently, so it's not "outside of Artsakh". And since Khojaly is a large (with over 1,3k population) and significant town, it's appropriate to mention it. It improves the content by giving readers a clearer idea of where the airport is actually located. A similar thing was done in the Russian Misplaced Pages where the lead is "airport located in the town of Khojaly, 10km north-east of the city of Stepanakert". I can invite a third opinion if you still don't agree. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I am aware of Khojaly (town) and its location. My main concern is that the airport was built to serve the needs of (primarily) the capital, in addition to the surrounding areas. The lead states: "Stepanakert Airport is an airport near Stepanakert" - and this is true. Nothing about that is false; it is not claiming that the airport is directly within the capital. Adding locations of nearby settlements can get "messy", because where would one draw the line? Who decided that a town with a population of 1,300 is the cut-off standard? For those reasons, I believe the lead should remain the same. However, if you want to include Khojaly and a note of its proximity to the airport, feel free to draft up and share an example of what you would like to include. I kindly ask that you post it here first, in order to allow an opportunity for other editors to review/adjust any potential changes before making the actual edit- as we have discussed this best-practice before on several other talk pages. Archives908 (talk) 19:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I never said current lead was wrong, yet it lacked crucial information. And "where to draw the line" question is irrelevant since Khojaly isn't just a random town that's close to the airport. The airport is literally inside this town. My suggestion for the lead would be something similar to how it is on the Russian Misplaced Pages: Stepanakert Airport is an airport located in the town of Khojaly, 10 kilometres north-east of Stepanakert, the regional capital. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:11, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Alright, that sounds good. And just so we are both clear, your proposal is to alter the 1st sentence of the article from:

Stepanakert Airport (Armenian: Ստեփանակերտի Օդանավակայան) is an airport near Stepanakert, the capital city of the de facto independent Republic of Artsakh (also known as Nagorno-Karabakh Republic/NKR), de jure inside Azerbaijan.

to:

Stepanakert Airport (Armenian: Ստեփանակերտի Օդանավակայան) is an airport in the town of Khojaly, 10 kilometers north-east of Stepanakert, the regional capital of the de facto independent Republic of Artsakh (also known as Nagorno-Karabakh Republic/NKR), de jure inside Azerbaijan.

Please confirm that this is the consensus we are agreeing to. Archives908 (talk) 20:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The norm is to use "self-proclaimed" rather than "de facto independent", or so I've been told by AntonSamuel. Aside from that, I'm fine with rest of your proposal, plus the additions I previously made to the infobox about de jure status being restored. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, I prefer "de facto independent", since I find it the most neutral sounding term, however there was an argument regarding this since I thought "unrecognized" which CuriousGolden used, wasn't very prudent to use per WP:NPOV as it has a negative connotation to it, and so I looked around and it seems that "self-proclaimed" is used the most. However, I have no discussion, RfC or naming convention that I can point to off hand that recommends one term over the other. So to be clear - It's not my personal opinion that "self-proclaimed" is preferable to "de facto independent". AntonSamuel (talk) 20:26, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

"Self-proclaimed" is still the most commonly used WP:NPOV term and is used by almost all articles about this topic. Don't think we should start arguing about this here, and if one thinks "self-proclaimed" isn't a good term to use, then there can be a large-scale discussion about it like there was for the term of "occupied". Until that, we follow the WP:CONSISTENCY. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:31, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I am generally indifferent to the term but agree with AntonSamuel about "de facto independent" sounding more neutral and really see no valid reason to change it. The same goes for the info box, de jure is already appropriately listed. The consensus reached here is for editing the 1st sentence of the article only. Anything else will need further discussion. Archives908 (talk) 20:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

As I said above, if you don't agree with the term of "self-proclaimed", it'll require a much larger scale discussion than just this and I suggest you do that. Until then, we need to follow what's commonly agreed upon. And the whole point of this discussion was mostly about the infobox, not sure when you thought that changed. I've already brought up my arguments about inclusion of de jure status in infobox above. If you have any arguments about why Azerbaijan shouldn't be mentioned in infobox, while Artsakh should and why Azerbaijan's map shouldn't be in map in infobox while Artsakh's should, then please present me them. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:41, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Unless I have suddenly developed early onset Alzheimer's (too which that luckily hasn't happened), virtually the entire discussion was about including Khojaly in the lead or not. And a consensus was finally reached, until you suddenly brought up the info box. Please read the info box as it stands carefully, both de facto and de jure status is already listed and fully present in the article. Azerbaijan is listed equally to Artsakh under both the location in the info box and in the lead of the article. I am therefore, quite perplexed what you are now referring too. Specify exactly. Archives908 (talk) 20:51, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion seems to have become exclusively about lead following your comment on 17:58. My main concern was with the infobox. You still have removed the Azerbaijani map without a reason. It'd also be prudent to change the "location=" parameter on infobox to Khojaly from Stepanakert. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

No, what I did was restore parts of the article after you made edits under the broad summary of "adding de jure". Now that you have clarified, the pushpin of Azerbaijan can be included in addition to Artsakh. On the other hand, I disagree changing the location parameter to Khojaly. Khojaly will already be included in the very first sentence of this article, as per our consensus. However, the principal (and largest) city that this airport is nearest too and was intended to serve, remains Stepanakert. It is the largest urban area within the vicinity of the airport, and the city of which the airport is respectively named after. To sum things up, we will alter the lead to:

Stepanakert Airport (Armenian: Ստեփանակերտի Օդանավակայան) is an airport in the town of Khojaly, 10 kilometers north-east of Stepanakert, the regional capital of the de facto self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh (also known as Nagorno-Karabakh Republic/NKR), de jure inside Azerbaijan.

And add Azerbaijan to the pushpin map. I will be WP:BOLD and make the changes to conclude the matter. Any further rationale to change or keep the location parameters can be discussed below by all those interested. Archives908 (talk) 21:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

When it comes to the Nagorno-Karabakh articles, I was told earlier that the specific placement of maps and names with regard to the de jure/de facto situation had already been resolved in a certain way through discussion - however I haven't seen these discussions personally yet. My interest has mainly been in improving the articles in general, so I found this issue a bit petty and ignored it. However, it seems that the issue can turn into a matter of contention in that it serves to legitimize and delegitimize. After a cursory look at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names), I'm not sure how much Misplaced Pages guidelines take diplomatic recognition into consideration when it comes to placing one map ahead of another, however, as I understand it - while guidelines and naming conventions are one way of being guided regarding the standard format of pages, relevant sample discussions and RfC's that arrived at a certain consensus can serve as examples as well. This should be treated with care in my view, since not all discussions or move requests have been very inclusive or closed properly by editors familiar with the relevant Misplaced Pages guidelines and geo-political context. AntonSamuel (talk) 15:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, AntonSamuel. It is thoughtworthy and appreciated. Archives908 (talk) 17:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Khojaly Airport

@Archives908: "Khojaly airport" is a significant alternate and official name for this airport and it is used by its native population which you implied doesn't (Khojaly, where this airport is located in, was a large Azerbaijani town).

Quotes from WP:NCGN and WP:OFFICIALNAME respectively, supporting inclusion:

Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information.

Where an undisputed official name exists, it should always be provided early in an article's introduction, bolded at its first mention and, where appropriate, italicized.

Sources that show "Khojaly airport" matches the above policies' requirements:

Results from Google Scholar: "Stepanakert Airport" - 31; "Khojaly Airport" - 4; This makes 12% of sources, which passes WP:NCGN requirement.
Results from Google: "Stepanakert Airport" - 11,700; "Khojaly Airport" - 1,740; This makes 15%, which passes WP:NCGN requirement.
WP:RS using "Khojaly Airport" - BBC; Eurasianet; European Parliament.
Official Azerbaijani government sources using "Khojaly Airport" - AzerTag; APA; This proves that this is the name officially used by Azerbaijan.

— CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:11, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

None of that changes the fact that the name is not an official name of the current airport, it is not used by its administration, nor is it used by any local authorities/officials within Stepanakert or the Republic of Artsakh. Not to mention, that throughout it's history, not a single Azeri has ever been able to access or has transited through the airport. Archives908 (talk) 15:01, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Archives908, you do realize Azerbaijan is still the de jure owner of the airport, which means what it uses is the official name, alongside the de facto name used by Artsakh? Not sure how any of what you said changes the fact that Misplaced Pages policies advocate for the inclusion of "Khojaly Airport" as I've proved above. "Azeris don't use it" might be the weirdest reason I've seen for not including an Azerbaijani name. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:08, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

I apologize if you personally feel its a "weird" reason. But Misplaced Pages is not a forum to dismiss ideas by other editors because you think their rationale is "weird". Again, not a single Azeri has every utilized or step foot within the airport grounds. Despite you thinking this rationale is "weird", the fact is that the airport has no significance or useful purpose to any nearby Azeri populations as the airport is not operational and has no cultural or economic benefits/ties to the de facto state. Absolutely no goods, cargo, or people travel through the airport destined for Azerbaijan. And if that were a reality, you do realize that Azerbaijan has a travel ban/blockade along that entire stretch of the border. Furthermore, the official functioning language of the airport and its administration is Armenian, not Azerbaijani. Hence, I am still lacking illumination how this non-functional, segregated, isolated, small Armenian-built and maintained "airport" has any relevance to Azerbaijanis whatsoever. Archives908 (talk) 15:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Archives908, I think I'll be requesting a third opinion, as you don't seem to understand that whoever currently uses the airport is irrelevant to the fact that it has a significant alternate name which should be displayed in the article, as supported by Misplaced Pages policies. The airport isn't "Armenian-built", it existed during Soviet times. The name "Khojaly Airport" isn't about the name's relevance to Azerbaijan, it has nothing to do with Azerbaijan. It is just a significant alternate name for this airport. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:00, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

The airport has been directly controlled by Artsakh authorities for 19 years (since 1992) and the refurbished/reconstructed airport was done by the Armenian population beginning in 2009- not Azeris. I have learned, WP:CANVASS is never a good idea. It is not appropriate for you to bring in editors who could potentially turn this conversation in your direction- that would evidently warrant Admin intervention. Archives908 (talk) 16:33, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Archives908, have you not heard of WP:3O? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:37, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

WP:3O is acceptable after a topic is thoroughly discussed. We have been unable to discuss the facts in detail as you have either ignored several of my arguments or have called my rationale "weird". Which is by far productive. Nonetheless, I see you already listed the disagreement so I welcome the opinion of a neutral third party. Archives908 (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Archives908 are we good on adding "Khojaly Airport" now? Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 06:01, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I still don't necessarily see the relevance of it (considering just 8% of searches since 2017 refer to the airport as such, and because of the Azerbaijani blockade on Armenia/Artsakh, anyone who does refer to it as "Khojaly Airport" are not actually able to use the airport) but, feel free to reinstate your edit. Archives908 (talk) 13:17, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

Dear fellow editors,

I am Springnuts, a previously uninvolved editor. Afaik I have not previously interacted with either of the editors involved in this discussion.

User:CuriousGolden added an alternative name for this non-functioning airport. User:Archives908 reverted it here: . This is not inappropriate editing, though since it is apparently controversial it would have been constructive for User:Archives908 to follow WP:BRD and start a discussion on the talk page immediately after this edit. Or even to leave it in place and start the discussion.

User:CuriousGolden remade the edit, and started a discussion on the talk page. User:Archives908 removed the material a second time with a peremptory sounding edit summary “Cease your reverts until a consensus is reached”. This sort of edit summary is unhelpful because it is not civil, and we do not in general require advance approval of edits or reversions.

I commend User:CuriousGolden for not reverting this second revert; and I commend you both for engaging in discussion on the talk page. Please remember that editing is not a battle: the aim is to improve the encyclopedia; not to win a point.

To the question. It’s all about pragmatism really. How do we make the encyclopedia useful? By following modern English usage, we avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what is it called. We don’t care who built it, who owns it, who controls it, or who uses it (or rather, in this case, who doesn’t use it).

Well, around 10% of the time - roughly speaking – it is called Khojaly Airport. I restricted Google Scholar results to 2017+ (8%) and Google Search results to the past 12 months (15%) to get this order of magnitude estimate. So my opinion is: iaw WP:PLACE and WP:OTHERNAMES ‘Khojaly Airport’ should be listed as an alternative name in this article; and there should be a redirect from Khojaly Airport to this article.

I picked up from the discussion page that perhaps the two editors involved had tangled elsewhere. If this is happening a lot, or if you find yourself often in conflict with other editors, do consider voluntarily adopting a 1 Revert Rule as a general editing philosophy; or just taking a WP:WIKIBREAK.

With warmest good wishes and my respect to you both.

Springnuts (talk) 22:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Airport name and country

The city and therefore the airport came under Azerbaijani control. I recommend that relevant regulations be made. Emreculha (talk) 06:41, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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