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Rene Larsen Authentication

Rene Larsen at the School of Conservation, Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts has just completed a 5 year study of the map, and has announced that it is genuine.

Larsen said his team carried out studies of the ink, writing, wormholes and parchment of the map, which is housed at Yale University in the United States.

He said wormholes, caused by wood beetles, were consistent with wormholes in the books with which the map was bound.

He said claims the ink was too recent because it contained a substance called anatase titanium dioxide could be rejected because medieval maps have been found with the same substance, which probably came from sand used to dry wet ink.

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre56g583-us-map-america/

scope_creep (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's the same story as in reference 4 of the article. The authors of the last report on the map (reference 2 of the article) are awaiting further details, as some of the claims in these second-hand news reports appear either not to make sense, or to miss the point of earlier work (for example, nobody seriously disputes the consistency of the wormholes in the map and its associated volumes- the problem, if anything, is that they are TOO consistent, as if the worms were guided). David Trochos (talk) 17:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC) (Revised David Trochos (talk) 09:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC))

Not "second-hand news report", since according to Reuters, Larsen talked to Reuters directly. I saw my edits were reverted claiming they were second hand, however, the report says "Larsen told Reuters", which indicates first hand. Also, this article's been reverted to a clearly inaccurate state, using the phrase "most recent" in the lead paragraph, although those are not the most recent. I'd edited in the dates instead, which cannot be disputed. (Irrelevantly, I drew a copy of the Vinland map by hand in the '70's; I've been following this saga for a while.) Skeuomorph (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

An article written by a person is a first hand report of what that person says. An article written by a reporter, reporting what a person says, is a second hand report. Dougweller (talk) 07:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

No, an article written by a person is not a first hand "report" of what that person says, it is simply what that person says. If the journalist is listening to a talk, perhaps it could be argued that's second hand, but traditionally, a journalist reporting on what people who were at the talk said was said, would be considered second hand. But regardless, when the journalist is reporting an interview he himself conducted, that makes his "report" first hand. Skeuomorph (talk) 23:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, the report is first hand, I agree. I'm not sure if you meant your penultimate sentence to say what it does, that any report of what anyone said is second hand, is that what you meant?

A partial comment from someone who was there: "he did not claim that the map was definitely genuine. Instead, he said that his research - and he pointed to the need for further analysis - had not found any evidence that the map was a fake. He did not say that the presence of anatase titanium dioxide could not be consistent with a recent origin. Rather, he suggested a possible alternative explanation..." Dougweller (talk)

To clarify my comment which began this little debate: when the Reuters writer wrote "Vinland Map ... is almost certainly genuine, a Danish expert said Friday" he was very probably not quoting any Danish expert, but putting his own second-hand, sensationalist interpretation on Larsen's rather different claim that his team's tests "do not show any signs of forgery". David Trochos (talk) 18:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course we really need the report from Larsen and his team rather than just a press report. But I do think this Misplaced Pages article should give appropriate weight to his findings and those of his team - they are a serious academic source. Larsen is working in a completely different discipline to Towe, and the idea that Larsen's ideas can simply be demolished by Towe (as this article presently suggests) is misleading - multi-disciplinary study just doesn't work this way. Larsen's discipline of manuscript conservation gives no evidence of forgery. Towe's discipline of chemistry finds there is anatase present which is (probably? certainly?) synthetic. A Misplaced Pages article can do no more than set out these two views. They are not necessarily in conflict - rather there is no evidence of forgery, but synthetic anatase is present. It seems to me that Larsen has weakened his position by speculating where the anatase might have come from - this isn't his discipline. It may be of course that his report hedges more - for example he may look at possible mediaeval sources and possible twentieth century contamination. But it doesn't actually change the view he is expressing that the map when approached from the discipline of manuscript conservation shows no evidence of forgery, or as the reporter puts it is genuine. Maybe it is up to Towe to explain how synthetic anatase can be on a genuine map. Graemedavis (talk) 23:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

If I understand this, Larsen, a person with experience in the preservation and conservation of old documents, did a study of the map for five years and concluded that he didn't find anything that proved it was a fake and he came up with an explanation for the anatase crystals. Unfortunately the source of most of this is an article and not his report which is not on-line. The report seems to have been published in a non-English journal. Is the report in English? How did Larsen come to have access to the map for such an extended period of time? At any rate I read through the paragraph in question and I thought it was a fair representation of the situation. If anything the reported explanation by Larsen of the anatase is more dubious than the Misplaced Pages article suggests. Larsen seems to have proposed a new theory for the presence of the anatase without having the appropriate technical background to be seen as a credible source about that. There is also no evidence that I saw in any of the on-line articles about this that Larsen did any testing related to one of the main pieces of evidence against the authenticity of the map.--Davefoc (talk) 15:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Larsen's team didn't actually have the map for 5 years, though they may have made some return visits to Yale to check particular aspects. Most of the work was analysis of data gathered over a much shorter timespan. David Trochos (talk) 18:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Re: wormholes: What sense does it make to "guide" worms along paths to form a pattern that does not match that of The Tartar Relation? How does that comport with "TOO" consistency? Fotoguzzi (talk) 23:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

¨¨¨¨Comments by René Larsen¨¨¨¨

The purpose of our Vinland Map research has been and is to provide scientific data and fact which may help to clarify the authenticity of the card. We do not have any prejudiced attitude or belief in relation to the question of authenticity. Our interest as professionals is solely to help determine the authenticity of the based on scientific facts.

In our paper (Larsen, R. and Sommer D.V.P.: Facts and Myths about the Vinland Map and its Context, Zeitschrift für Kunsttechnologie und Konservierung vol. 2, 2009. Pp. 196-205.) which is written in English and is accessible trough most libraries, we conclude and recommends the following:

Based on our experiments and studies we can conclude that the worm holes in the Vinland Map are most likely to be of natural origin formed after the writing and drawing. In relation to earlier statements that the wormholes pattern of the Vinland Map may be linked to the Yale Speculum Historiale, in front of which it may have been placed, we add that we are able find a similar pattern on a photo of the bookbinding board of the book.

Based on our experiments with hypo chlorite bleaching we can conclude that this treatment may have been used on the Vinland Map and that it produces similar damages to the ink as observed on the Vinland Map. The damage is characterized by a severe loss of the overlying black ink pigment leaving fragments of this within the boarder lines of the underlying lighter yellow to brownish line of ink pigments and binding media fixed in the parchment surface. This characteristic damage is produced on both the carbon ink and the iron gall inks used in the experiment. This shows that the characteristics of ink damages cannot be used as a criterion for identification of the ink type as we did earlier. However, the ink damage is typical and very similar to those that we have observed on parchment manuscripts originating from the 4th century to 18th century. Together with the fact, that it is impossible to produce ink lines in two steps with the same precision of match of overlying ink fragments with the underlying ink line, this finally proofs that the ink of the Vinland Map has been applied in one step and that its characteristic damage is due to a drastic water based treatment.

Moreover, based on our experience with the dynamic of transport of components like calcite onto the surface of parchment, especially in connection with humid treatment, we suggest that the presence of anatase and calcite-anatase detected in the ink lines of the Vinland Map most possible are due to accumulation and fixation of these components caused by the wet treatment of Vinland Map. The sources of the components may very well be the river water and lime bath use in the parchment production which in several regions of Switzerland contains titanium dioxide components as well as heavy metals also found in the ink of Vinland Map. Additional sources of anatase may be its natural occurrence in the ink and/or dust from anatase containing ink drying sand. In this connection, it should be taken into consideration the chemical processes and transformations taking place in the parchment over time. These will be accelerated by wet treatment of the parchment. This is also the case with the deterioration of the parchment which may be transformed into gelatine as we have observed on the surface of Vinland Map in an earlier study. This deterioration process starts on the surface of the parchment and is accelerated by acid from the ink and not least when it is exposed to a bleaching treatment. This is undoubtedly the reason why the Vinland Map ink is embedded in gelatine.

With respect to the earlier studies of the watermarks in Speculum Historiale and Tartar Relation we have found a further matching mark in Piccards catalogue with the motif of the head of an ox with bespectacled eyes. We can conclude that the watermarks with high probability date the Speculum Historiale and Tartar Relation papers to 1437-1441 and the most possible place of production to the Oberhein region (in Switzerland or close to Switzerland).

Finally our preliminary palaeographic study of the texts of Vinland Map and the Tartar Relation shows a convincing similarity between the style of the letters and how these are combined in the individual words supporting the possible link between these.

Based on the above results we recommend the following further experiments and studies are carried out:

1. Experiments studying how components like anatase and calcite are taken up, transported and reacts in the parchment and ink during parchment production, application of ink, drying sand and successive wet treatments. These should include components from Swiss sources.

2. Advanced professional palaeographic studies based on the available high quality digital images of Vinland Map and Tartar Relation.

3. Performance of a comparative study of the worm holes in the Vinland Map, Speculum Historiale and Tartar Relation and their match. This should be photographic recorded and published.

4. PIXE analysis of the Vinland Map ink and parchment using the new type of non sampling equipment developed in recent EC research projects for the study of ink on historical paper documents.

5. Performance of microanalysis of trace elements in the inks, parchments and papers of Speculum Historiale, Tartar Relation and the Vinland Map which could contribute to the identification of their geographical origin.

More recent scientific research on the ink can be found in the following two papers:

Olin, J. S. (2012) Evidence that the Vinland Map was drawn using an iron gall ink: The continuing need for further research, Advances in Chemical Engineering and Science, 2012, 2, 514-518

Olin, J. S. (2013) The Vinland Map: Transmission electron micrograph of the ink, International Journal of Advances in Chemistry (IJAC) Vol.1, No.1, November 2013

In the latter paper Olin concludes: "Evidence that the Map is a modern forgery based on the shape of the antase particles in the ink of the Map is shown in this paper as less clear cut than has been formerly proposed. It has been proposed that a modern forger of the Vinland Map obtained parchment of the correct date for the Council of Basle, but no evidence has been presented to confirm that." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.161.59.196 (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

The last sentence of the above is wrong in two ways. First, the parchment of the Map is of the correct date for the Council of Basle. Second, as the John Paul Floyd discoveries demonstrated, the Map was made by a modern(ish) forger. All the rest is irrelevant. David Trochos (talk) 15:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Add link to 1966 BBC documentary?

There's an interesting piece about the Vinland Map at the end of this 1966 BBC production (it starts around the 38-minute mark). I don't know if it's viewable outside the UK. It may be blocked for copyright reasons, in which case it probably shouldn't be added to the main article.

Here's the link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p017j146/chronicle-vikings-in-north-america

85.255.234.123 (talk) 09:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Good find, which also shows the 1966 state of thinking on the Kensington Runestone and L'Anse aux Meadows (very sniffy British attitude to the fore)! I hope a non-UK Wikipedian will be able to confirm whether the link works. David Trochos (talk) 18:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Thought you'd like it! Did you notice Skelton's half-smile at the very end of the interview? As for the understandable exposition mix-up, I also missed it on first reading... I see that even the corresponding list on Spanish wiki mentions only the Exposición Histórico-Americana (and it doesn't have a proper article there, either). 85.255.235.49 (talk) 20:37, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Father Josef Fischer theory

It seems to me that at least some mention should be made of Kristen Seaver's theory that the map could have been forged by Father Josef Fischer (1858-1944). Whether or not her theory can be substantiated, the claim has been made and discussed in a number of articles and books. It's a part of the history of the debate. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 00:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The Fischer theory is mentioned, not in the body of the article but in the external links at the bottom. The link in question leads to a review of Seaver's book, which summarises the situation as follows:

"The argument is ingenious and compelling, and this may well be exactly what happened. But it is only hypothesis. Not a shred of hard evidence connects Fischer with the map."

Now that Floyd's hard evidence effectively disconnects Fischer (dead before the Zaragoza robberies began) from the map, this seems the best way to acknowledge that the theory existed, without allowing it to confuse the issue. David Trochos (talk) 08:22, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's a possible section, summarizing the issues related to the theory as put forth in her book. See what you think; I would put it before the Conservation section. (Not quite sure how to make this format nicely here ...) Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 16:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

A Hypothetical Forger

In 2004, Kirsten A. Seaver published Maps, myths, and men : The story of the Vinland map, a wide-ranging review of the arguments and evidence presented to that date. Seaver was hailed as the Vinland map's "most thorough and outspoken critic in recent years" for her "exemplary interdisciplinary study". In addition to arguing that the map was a forgery, she also proposed a new theory: that the forger could have been Father Josef Fischer (1858-1944), an Austrian cartographer and Jesuit scholar who was knowledgeable about Norse exploration in America. Seaver argued that Father Fischer had the knowledge, motivation (to undermine Nazi ideology) and means (access to parchment of the appropriate age) to have forged the Vinland Map, possibly in the 1930s. However appealing her theory, she lacked hard evidence to connect Fischer to the Vinland Map. Subsequent research identifying the source of the actual parchment used (see below) suggests that the map was likely created after Fischer's death, confuting this theory.

If this section is to be added, I'd propose that the final sentence should be reworded as follows: "Subsequent research into the provenance of the Vinland map documents (see below) suggests that they are unlikely to have spent any time in Fischer's possession." This avoids passing direct judgement on the theory, while indicating that the new evidence conflicts with it. (Also, while Kirsten Seaver's 2004 book does discuss the Fischer theory at length, she actually first proposed it in a 1995 article.) 85.255.235.49 (talk) 08:20, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The trouble is that the Fischer theory is (and as the review listed in my 3 Sep comment indicates, always was) the least useful aspect of Kirsten Seaver's remarkable work on the Vinland Map. Her major contribution to the debate is, in effect, the structure of this Misplaced Pages article, which probably could not exist without her meticulous summary of events since the Map was first heard of in 1957. Now more than ever, I am reluctant to highlight the effectively discredited Fischer theory. David Trochos (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Here's a possible revision, which hopefuly could recognize her work without over-emphasizing the failed theory (and theories often fail): "In 2004, Kirsten A. Seaver published Maps, myths, and men : The story of the Vinland map, a wide-ranging review of the arguments and evidence presented to that date. Seaver was hailed as the Vinland map's "most thorough and outspoken critic in recent years" for her "exemplary interdisciplinary study". She also theorized that the forger could have been Father Josef Fischer (1858-1944), an Austrian cartographer and Jesuit scholar. However, subsequent research into the provenance of the Vinland map documents (see below) suggests that they are unlikely to have spent any time in Fischer's possession." Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

I like that- would you care to do the honours? David Trochos (talk) 14:37, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Delighted -- since the change in tone minimizes the Fischer theory and is more about the book she wrote, I've used its title as a section title: feel free to change that if you wish! Also, I've removed the cited reviews from the external links section now that they're mentioned in the article. Many thanks, Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 23:31, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Removal of later material on Jacqueline Olin

I'm not going to re-revert the removal of a passage about Jacqueline Olin's most recent papers on the Vinland Map (published in journals of very dubious repute), but I'd like to put in a plea for its re-instatement. Mrs Olin, who I believe has been involved with the Vinland Map longer than anybody else, stands as a symbol of one of the two main sources of failure in the Vinland Map investigation (the other being fraud by the likes of Enzo Ferrajoli and Laurence Witten).

Appointed as the Smithsonian's official scientific investigator of the Vinland Map following a 1966 conference, she has been promoting essentially the same idea (that the Vinland Map ink is degraded from an ordinary medieval iron-gall recipe, in which titanium-rich ilmenite was used to make the requisite iron sulfate) for nearly 50 years, despite all evidence that not only was such a scenario impossible, all chemical studies pointed to the ink being the other main medieval type, based on carbon. That a highly respected Smithsonian scientist should ultimately be reduced to publishing in "vanity" journals says a great deal about the effect the Vinland Map has had on a number of fine minds. 92.18.183.37 (talk) 18:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree that is both interesting and sad that somebody can get obsessed with a topic to the point of destroying their reputation, but it's really not relevant to the Vinland map. It's not the map itself that affects people, it doesn't hold any magic properties like that. ;-) Instead it just serves as giving undue weight to these theories. If this was an article about Olin, it would be completely different. If you could find a reliable source talking about the map and people going nuts that would be a different thing. --OpenFuture (talk) 20:03, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I have reinstated the Olin references, the removal of which appears to have been motivated by parti pris. 85.255.234.209 (talk) 08:55, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

This being Misplaced Pages, we would only include it if it is described in reliable independent secondary sources. Including this material sourced to the primary sources, the junk journals themselves, seems perilously close to rubbing her nose in it and is unworthy. Guy (Help!) 11:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't belong here. The edit warring IP hopper can appeal at WP:RSN but this article will end up protected if the edit warring continues. (Someone would have to request it at WP:RPP, I can't do it. Doug Weller talk 11:45, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

For the record, there's no IP hopper involved here. As indicated in my first message, I didn't want an edit war, and I do not know who 85.255.233.220 is. (However I'd say in response to Open Future's "It's not the map itself that affects people"- yes it is, but it is a specific example of a general phenomenon) 92.18.183.37 (talk) 17:44, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I am hopping a little by the looks of it, but it's because I'm on mobile broadband! To confirm: the two reversions were done independently, by different people (the second person being me). Apologies for any confusion. 85.255.232.133 (talk) 19:11, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to remove reference 17, then, on the grounds that Walter C. McCrone had the article published in his own journal (Microscope)? Or perhaps we should leave the article as it was, and let readers judge the credibility of borderline material for themselves, instead of suppressing it? 85.255.233.220 (talk) 13:29, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

The Microscope is an international peer-reviewed journal formed in 1937 by Dr. Arthur Barron ....Dr. Walter C. McCrone founded the McCrone Research Institute in 1960 and is referto as the "Father of Modern Microscopy". -- Moxy (talk) 18:00, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. But McCrone bought the journal from Barron in 1962. He was both editor and publisher in 1999, when the article cited in ref. 17 appeared. 85.255.232.133 (talk) 19:00, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Does the map depict Australia?

Studying the map, I came across a landmass in the far-east of this map. The landmass in question is marked with what I have interpreted as Latin infute sub *agedo?e, the first two words meaning 'legally below' and an unidentifiable third word. I think that it could be the case that this landmass, or that immediately south of it, is supposed to represent the northern part of the Australian Continent. This judgement is based on the landmass' shape location in relation to what seems to be Indonesia. Any insight here would be very much welcome! JoeyofScotia (talk) 01:32, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

@JoeyofScotia: Interesting but this isn't a forum for discussion of the map, only for discussion of the article, and you'd need to find sources meeting WP:RS first. Doug Weller talk 13:04, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I was aware, thank you. It just strikes me really that nobody has noticed that yet. JoeyofScotia —Preceding undated comment added 17:47, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Yale to do more non-destructive tests

Yale sent me a link to this today. Doug Weller talk 19:08, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw it- and sent the author a response listing numerous problems with information presented in the article (some of which was subsequently corrected, some of which I just hope will not find its way into the proposed new book to add yet more confusion to the saga). The results of the tests should certainly go in the page when available, but maybe not this. David Trochos (talk) 00:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

@David Trochos: Thanks, i'm sure that will improve the result. Maybe a mention of the plan, but that's all. Doug Weller talk 14:16, 16 March 2018 (UTC)