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Infobox text in “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” incorrect
There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
- Good points. The caption now includes Sivas, and the text more closely matches Kevorkian's village-based analysis. There is still a problem, since Kevorkian doesn't use the "Six Villayets" concept explicitly on the page cited. Also, if we want to introduce the "Six Villayets", just doing so in this caption is odd. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you.73.173.64.115 (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
- During the Congress of Berlin in 1878, these vilayets were referred to as Six Armenian Vilayets, not Six Vilayets.73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
- Yes, but the cluster is given so many names by the sources, and I'd prefer to use the title of the linked article. You might want to propose a move of the linked article if you think that "Six Armenian Vilayets" would be a better title. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Six Armenian Vilayets (or, more precisely, "the provinces inhabited by the Armenians") was the name originally figuring in the official documents of the 1878 Congress of Berlin. Turks, of course, labored to drop anything "Armenian" in their "best" traditions, and I'm sorry to say, the title of the linked article, Six Vilayets, follows this Turkish preference. Whereas one would think the title must have followed the original name version and not the Turkish distortion.73.173.64.115 (talk) 15:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
“CUP regrouped as Turkish nationalists” is hypocrisy, the Turkish nationalists literally fought against the CUP…
Yeah, someone care to explain? Youprayteas 08:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- What you wrote is not really true and the sources that say so are decades out of date. This was Zürcher's big contribution and now most historians changed their view (t · c) buidhe 10:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- The Istanbul Government is the CUP… which was allied to the Entente… which was fighting Turkish nationalists… Youprayteas 19:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- You've got it backwards. The CUP as an organization didn't outlast World War I, but most of the leading figures in the Turkish Nationalist movement were ex-CUP. If you doubt me, there are literally three sources cited in the article, I would recommend checking them out. (t · c) buidhe 20:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
How to contact editors with extra privileges?
I understand there are Misplaced Pages editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (t · c) buidhe and Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs)) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Misplaced Pages’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Misplaced Pages community. Thank you in advance.73.173.64.115 (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
- Category:Misplaced Pages administrators (t · c) buidhe 18:02, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- I said "other than this one (t · c) buidhe". Are you deaf and dumb?73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
- You pinged us. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- As an uninvolved administrator... I'm not sure what sort of intervention you're looking for here. To be clear, administrators also do not have the final call on content decisions, as they are instead determined by a consensus of all editors. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for this. What administrative actions do they perform then? Could you elaborate?73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
- Uh, all sorts of stuff? You can see some information on the role at Misplaced Pages:Administrators. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for responding to my inquiry. Have a nice day.73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
- I don't remember that there has ever been a consensus on this Talk page re: the number of Armenians killed, Armenian total population numbers, and the name of historical Armenian habitat. The author's and editors' highhandedness must therefore be reported and an administrative sanction imposed. Will look into Misplaced Pages:Administrators for that. Thanks again.73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
Note to self: new sources
- Akçam, Taner (2023). "The Armenian Genocide: An Overview". The Cambridge World History of Genocide: Volume 3: Genocide in the Contemporary Era, 1914–2020. Cambridge University Press. pp. 67–92. ISBN 978-1-108-76711-8.
- Akçam, Taner (2024). "Top-Down and Local Violence in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Role of Security Concerns and a Century of "Accumulated Experience"". Journal of Genocide Research. 26 (2): 121–141. doi:10.1080/14623528.2022.2127488.
Sayfo
Should the introduction not include the Sayfo? This was the systematic genocide of the Assyrian, Chaldean, and Syriac peoples, committed by the Ottoman Empire and their collaborators, the Kurdish tribes and other local Muslim Arab populations of the area. The intro should read something like this:
Considering the fact that, based on various sources, the number of Assyrians alone (not including Chaldean) who fell victim to Ottoman/Turkish, Kurdish, and Arab persecutions between 1895 and 1925 was 800,000-1,100,000. Of these, between 150,000-400,000 (most reliable number is considered to be around 250,000 Assyrians) perished in the Sayfo, which occurred concurrently with and was closely related to the Armenian genocide (which in reality was more of a Christian genocide than just an Armenian genocide). Assyrian and Chaldean deaths comprised almost half of the genocide deaths in the "Armenian genocide." FJZAJV (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Sources:
FJZAJV (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which sources describe the Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac genocides as part of the Armenian genocide? The Wiki article for Sayfo distinguishes it from the Armenian genocide. Bitspectator ⛩️ 05:11, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's complicated, but IMO most of the Sayfo cannot be considered simply a part or even a spill over of the Armenian genocide. (t · c) buidhe 06:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
End date of 1917 instead of 1923
I strongly oppose the change of the date to 1917 as opposed to 1923.
Genocide was not only committed by the CUP/Ottoman Empire, but also by TNC and Ataturk. The genocide continued in systematic massacres of Armenian (many of who returned from deportations), but also in economic and cultural erasure.
The article discusses how the Genocide ‘ended 2000 years of Armenian residence to the region.’ If that is the case, you simply have to expand the date to 1923, because TNC/ Ataturk’s policy were the final nail in the coffin.
From systematic massacres, such as the aftermath of the Battle of Maras; to seizure of most Armenian property, and the systematic destruction of Armenian heritage (Ani being one of several examples); it’s hard to justify their exclusion.
Would like to hear the moderators argument, of keeping those events-which truly did end Armenian presence in the region-from inclusion in the genocide. Thank you. Nlblough (talk) 07:39, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As it's possible to make the case either way, this is why I support removing the infobox. However, most sources end it at 1916, 1917, or 1918 so I don't support changing it. (t · c) buidhe 14:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- A more nuanced version of the infobox, but less helpful to our readers, would go something like follows:
- Location
- Ottoman Empire (but also parts of Iran and arguably the Republic of Turkey)
- Date
- 1915–1917 (some sources start at 1914 or earlier, and you can see 1916, 1918, 1923 or the present as end dates)
- Target
- Ottoman Armenians (but some would bundle in Assyrians and perhaps Greeks)
- Attack type
- Genocide, death march, Islamization
- Deaths
- 600,000–1.5 million
- Perpetrators
- Committee of Union and Progress (but also random ottoman Muslims, Kurdish tribes, ottoman bureaucracy etc.) (t · c) buidhe 14:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
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