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Revision as of 14:51, 25 April 2004

Review of quickpoll process

The quickpoll process was originally implemented as a 30-day trial. We have now had 30 days to evaluate whether this process is beneficial. It seems appropriate for us to consider the experience and decide whether we want to continue using quickpolls.

• To review the poll and discussion surrounding the initial design and implementation of quickpolls, see Misplaced Pages talk:Quickpolls/Archive1.
• To review the actual quickpolls and related comments, see Misplaced Pages:Quickpolls/Archive.
• To review general quickpoll discussion during the trial period, see Misplaced Pages talk:Quickpolls/Archive2.
• To review the current quickpoll policy and related discussion, see Misplaced Pages:Quickpolls policy and Misplaced Pages talk:Quickpolls policy.

Question: Do you think we should continue using quickpolls?

Yes

1. Quickpolls would work great if everyone accepted the three revert guideline. Sadly, somebody always wants to make an exception, thus negating the rule. It should be an absolute rule -- anybody who reverts three times in 24 hours for any reason whatsoever should get a 24 hour ban. Tuf-Kat 18:54, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)
2. William M. Connolley 19:38, 2004 Apr 20 (UTC) Yes. Also, the 3-revert rule should become absolute, with ignorance no excuse. Being banned for 24h is not such a serious penalty that we need to agonise over it too long. Currently we are far too wishy washy. Suggestion: 2nd ban gets 2 days; 3rd 4; 4th 8... etc.
3. Ruhrjung 19:58, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC) Yes, users of Wik's and 172's kind seem almost to have observed the three-revert rule thanks to the Quickpoll scheme. But modification is called for to hamper the usage of Quickpolls as a tool for one side against the other in an edit war or long-lasting POV-strife.
4. Cgranade 23:12, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)
5. Eloquence* 01:43, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC) - improvements are welcome, particularly for the edit war policy
6. Bryan 05:28, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC) Misplaced Pages needs some way to counter the people who think they can get their way simply by out-enduring the patience of the people who disagree with them. 24-hour bans seem like a reasonable way to "handicap" such tactics to me.
7. Delirium 06:35, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
8. Halibutt 14:47, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC) Totally agree with Ruhrjung.
9. Totally agree with Halibutt, Bryan and Eloquence. --Uncle Ed 18:11, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
10. Generally useful. Jamesday 21:13, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
11. Yes, but the same outcome should occur for both sides of the edit war. The current system that allows one person who broke the 3-revert rule to be banned and other person not is grossly unfair. Angela. 20:25, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
12. VV 08:30, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC) Although QPs are flawed and biased, past ad hoc approaches were more so. And in my case a recurring issue was thrust into full view, where some stopped to see for themselves who was telling the truth and experienced first-hand the sort of behavior I had faced . This might have changed the minds of some who were otherwise following ideology or incomplete information, the best outcome I could reasonably hope for in this environment.
13. Tuomas 23:22, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC) Quickpolls do not solve the underlying flaw of Misplaced Pages, and in addition they increase a tribal mentality which is bad when a focus on wordings and arguments is needed. But they make an important difference if they improve the social climate. Single users and sysops who ignore to cooperate harm wikipedia much more than flawed Quickpolls. The three-revert rule can be seen as a codification against uncooperative behavior at its worst. Quickpolls give hope that the wiki-community actually cares, and don't accept everything from wik, 172 and their ilk.
14. John Gohde, aka Mr-Natural-Health 02:42, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC) -- Editors are against Quickpolls because they are changing the balance of power. Ergo, the quickpolls are working great!

Yes, but only for certain cases

The quickpolls policy currently allows quickpolls when:

1. someone violates the three revert guideline
2. a sysop repeatedly misuses a sysop capability
3. a signed in user goes on a "rampage" of some type
4. a signed in user confesses to deliberate trolling

If you support quickpolls for some of these situations and oppose them for others, please indicate in your vote the situations for which you support quickpolls.

1. Only for cases 3 and 4. In my mind, quickpolls are very useful for situations like we had with Plautus satire, or maybe Bird. In other words, situations where there's a consensus that someone is a major disruptive influence, and something needs to be done faster than the arbitration process can work. They shouldn't be used for routine disputes. I dislike the current situation where there seems to always be a quickpoll going on, usually involving conflicts that really aren't worth the attention of the whole community. Isomorphic 17:57, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
2. Only for cases 2, 3 and 4. I'd like some method to enforce the 3-revert rule, but with Quickpolls, enforcement turns into a popularity contest and becomes asymmetric. -- Cyan 18:15, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
3. Agreed with Cyan. It is frustrating to try to be fair and vote to ban two users only to have one of them not punished because the community perceives they are "right". I think it increases the perception that we are unfair, rather than reducing it. Jwrosenzweig 18:46, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
4. Yes, quickpolls would work great if everyone accepted the three revert guideline. Sadly, somebody always wants to make an exception, thus negating the rule. Tuf-Kat 18:54, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)
5. Agree with Cyan and Jwrosenzweig. It seems to work reasonably for cases 2, 3 and 4. Warofdreams 18:54, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
6. for cases 2,3, and 4. I don't think it works at all for the three revert rule. john 20:34, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
7. Only for case 2. anthony (see warning)
8. Case 2, for now. (see UninvitedCompany's comments, below) Martin 23:03, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
9. Quickpolls is a powerful tool that allows the community to deal with a troublesome few. But it should only be permitted for specific cases. -- llywrch 00:22, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
10. I think in case 2-when dealing with a sysop a quickpoll would be appropriate to rein in those who have authority. In other instances quickpolls are usually just a venue for people to make personal comments rather than vote on actual behavior. I am voting in this poll because others said it would be ok but for the record-I have not be on three months. GrazingshipIV 01:06, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
11. Cases 2 and 3. SweetLittleFluffyThing
12. 2, 3, 4, --Voodoo 23:20, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
13. Cases 3,4 Wikimol 20:46, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No

1. I do not think they are useful. Cases like P.Satire and Bird are better dealt with "in vivo" and "in real time" by one/several sysops, for my taste. Pfortuny 18:05, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

   Admins do not have the authority to ban except for simple vandalism. That's why we started quickpolls in the first place – so admins could get the authority to quickly block a serious problem user. Isomorphic 18:56, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

   Well, that's why I think an automated thing would be better. Nobody makes a decission, it is the computer. And for me, the above rule could do with a revision (if Bird were not simple vandalism, then we are not speaking a clear language). Pfortuny 07:20, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

   In several cases it's been noticed that the nominated party hadn't actually met the requirements for action. While I've some support for automation, it does seem useful to be able to discuss whether someone actually qualifies for the proposed action. Jamesday 21:16, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

2. They've proven to be rather useless, neither quick nor particularily effective. Scrap Quickpolls. — Jor (Talk) 18:41, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
3. They are mostly used to attack opponents, even persons who have not broken any rules. Even Ed Poor has been the target of such ridiculous attacks. The whole thing is unpleasant. Nico 18:50, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
4. I believe that this experiment has shown that the time and effort required of the community to revert "rampages" and "trolling" and to deal with "excessive reverts" is rather less than the time and effort expended on quickpolls. While the community may benefit from some mechanism for dealing with problem behavior, quickpolls isn't it. UninvitedCompany 19:16, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
5. Take this as experience, and start over with this experience as a guide to designing a new system. We can do better than this. -- Cimon 20:06, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)
6. agree with the above, we need a new and better system, one w clear rules and guidelines, not mob 'justice', and popularity contests of death Sam Spade 20:14, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
   • Realistically, if we get rid of QPs, we end up with no system at all again, which brings us back to unlimited edit wars and developers being the only control instance on sysop abuse. Do you have any alternative suggestions?--Eloquence* 01:45, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

   I've said it above: make it automatic. How? That's what needs to be thought of (but not here+now, I think). Pfortuny 07:20, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

7. I do not think they are working well--they only serve to exacerbate existing tensions between users rather than to resolve conflicts in the long term. In certain cases, responses should be much quicker than what a quickpoll allows for. It is also difficult to distinguish between valid users and sockpuppets, etc. I hate the idea of debates between users being the first thing we see at the top of a page, and I am worried that QuickPolls is turning into a popularity contest, rather than addressing issues. I therefore vote to end them. Oh, and did I mention that I hate the three revert rule, because it fails to consider the context of the reverts. There are cases where more than three reverts should be allowed and even encouraged. The three revert rule is not sacrosanct per se: it was established to deal with a specific problem, and if a troublesome user is taking advantage of that, that user should be revrrted. Danny 11:28, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
8. They're not very useful and half the time, it's whether the user is well-liked or not, not a policy-enforcing tool. ugen64 20:52, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
9. I thought it was a good idea at the start, and it certainly needs a system to replace it, but at present, they're simply not working - at all. Ambivalenthysteria 14:09, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
10. I was going to write exactly what Ambivalenthysteria said. moink 19:56, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
11. NO QUICKPOLLS. Never. Not only is three reverts sometimes very justified, but it doesn't actually do anything to the real problem users who know how to play the game. Start going after the f***ing trolls, not people who are trying to correct and article constantly butchered by wackjobs and idiots. Lord Kenneth 01:50, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
12. Voting isn't a natural wiki process. Quickpolls are another artificial complexity on top of what, to the casual amateur participant, is a already an impossibly arcane tangle of bureaucracy. Let's cut all the red tape, and get back to basics. Misplaced Pages is a wiki - that is its unique strength. I think we should stop trying to micro-manage everything, and allow the naturally democratic decentralised nature of wiki processes to come to the fore again. If we only had enough wikifaith to allow Misplaced Pages to "find its own level", then I'm convinced that most of the problems that concern people would turn out not to be problems at all. GrahamN 00:32, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
13. Although I highly respect the desire to back sysop decisions by community opinion, I don't think Quickpolls are the right way. Quickpolls add still more bureaucracy, and we already have way too much of that. People violate policies all the time, so what? Other people correct the damage done. Methinks we need fewer policies, not more (to be quite honest, three would be enough: Respect your fellow Wikipedians / Respect NPOV and the GFDL / When in doubt, apply common sense) Kosebamse 14:51, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Suggested modifications

This space is to consider possible changes to improve quickpolls

• Most of the problems actually helped through quickpolls have been new users who are not contributing in good faith. In light of this, why not give greater discretion to sysops in dealing with this? Bearing in mind Misplaced Pages:Don't bite the newbies, we could still permit discretionary bans and blocks for new users (less than 30 days old?) who are disruptive and who have not made any good-faith contributions. UninvitedCompany 19:16, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • I may not be correctly interpreting current policy, but I think that admins already have this authority provided the user has made no good-faith edits. The problem was with disruptive users who made at least some legitimate edits. Isomorphic 21:16, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
    • I believe that admins can only block for vandalism now, not, for example, for a pattern of POV edits indicative of an agenda, trolls on the policy pages, or the like. Presently we define vandalism narrowly. Perhaps that should change. If not, we can just use MeatBall:SoftSecurity as we did before Quickpolls. UninvitedCompany 21:33, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• Someone above suggested that instead of Quickpolls, we should just allow admins more leeway. That goes too far, since we wanted quickpolls precisely so that admins wouldn't make unilateral decisions. However, we could say that only an admin can start a Quickpoll. An admin sees a problem and decides "this user should be blocked for a while," but since the user isn't a simple vandal, the admin has no authority to block. So, the admin starts a Quickpoll to get authorization. This strikes a balance between our old system and the current Quickpoll system. It would cut down on people starting Quickpolls over any random dispute, since it requires at least one admin to believe that action is needed. Oh, and if we did this, it should also be with the understanding that it is NOT going to be used for enforcing the 3RR rule. What happened to the days when we just protected pages to stop edit wars? That was easier. Isomorphic 22:01, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • Given the rising number of sysops, maybe it would be an acceptable idea to keep controversial pages semi-constantly protected, and to make changes to the articles only after establishing consensus on the respective talk-page? It would in the long run probably mean a lot more work for sysops, though. --Ruhrjung 22:13, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
    • Well, I don't like the idea much, but I must say that since it was unprotected, the great majority of edits to terrorism have been reverted. That would seem to support your suggestion. Isomorphic 22:57, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• As I mentioned on wikipedia talk:quickpolls policy, polls should be expired after 24 hours (not 48), or immediately the action finishes, since they're meant to be fast. Leave a little note with the taken action behind.

• You might have them only startable by people physically able to take the proposed action. So, only a steward or developer could start a poll to desysop someone. Martin 23:23, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)~
  • I think this might be a good plan. It doesn't actually add to the power of admins, developers, stewards, etc. (because the community gets final say) but it should weed out a lot of the constant pointless accusations. Isomorphic 01:01, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • I too like the sound of this, with the proviso that the sysop/developer who starts the quickpoll shouldn't be involved in the problem (i.e. if I'm in a revert war with a user, I can't quickpoll them just because I'm a sysop). fabiform | talk 07:24, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • For my taste, this "takes the power out of the people", and goes against equality. What if "the people" want to desysop or desteward someone but no other sysop/steward will start the poll? Just asking for an action to be taken ought not to be prevented for "lack of power". Freedom of speech includes freedom to complain.Pfortuny 10:54, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • I agree, this could also ensure that the introduction of each quickpoll were properly made, which has been a weakness during this 30-days trial. --Ruhrjung

• Remove the ability to revert from non-admins.
• Create a goodly number of "mediators with power" who are accessable, can do all the things a quickpoll can, and whose descision is subject to public review and is able to be overturned by varying degrees of majority (depending on the number of people voting)
• Create a system for anonymously alerting afor mentioned empowered mediators of conduct violations
• Create a body of clear rules and guidelines, short and sweet, vague and flexable, which are to be enforced.

These are my suggestions. Sam Spade 13:29, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• As before I would support considerably longer bans than 24 hours,
• and I would support defining un-cooperative behavior (as demonstrative and systematic disregard of edit summaries and talk pages) as a justified reason beside intense reverting habits for banning (or other remedies). --Ruhrjung

• • Create new remedy - partial ban - prevent specific user editing specific pages, but for longer (e.g. week). Obvious diasadvantage - it would be more attractive to abuse Quickpolls against opponents in edit wars - so only together with some change preventing Quickpoll abuse.
  • Only an admin should have the right to start Quickpoll, but admins should be bold.Wikimol 20:46, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Other comments

I'd like to see some form of automation for condorcett voting --this alllows ranking of several alternitives. Hottly disputed subjects might also benifit from a split page line by line "rebuttal" or alternate opinion format wiki deuling? But I am interested in trolproofing the concept. perhaps with "voting and forking" of "sections and versions". It seems appealing to let memes rise on their own. -ws

• We need to think of automatizing the whole thing. It takes too long to solve a "quick"poll (for my taste) and so they lose their utility. I think this is not the place (now) for more thinking, so I stop here. Pfortuny 18:04, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• I don't remember to have seen Quickpolls used against misusing sysops or users confessing trolling. If this is really so, maybe it's premature to "evaluate" functions we haven't tested yet. --Ruhrjung 20:02, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • The Ed Poor quickpoll was for misusing sysop capabilities. The scenario of confessed trolling was a late addition to the policy. --Michael Snow 20:28, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
    • And don't forget: I was exonerated by a huge margin. You know, a note on my talk page would have worked better. I still have no idea what you all want me to do, next time a similar situation comes up... --Uncle Ed 17:20, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
      • Which is precisely why SysOps are unable to handle the problem of disruptive editors. They are clueless and are just as likely to side with the wrong editor and to take the wrong corrective action. -- John Gohde, aka Mr-Natural-Health 02:34, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Quickpolls seem to work only to prosecute users who have no following. If a user is part of a faction which is pushing a point of view that faction (with the addition of innocents who join in) support them resulting in a ambiguous result. In some cases one of the two equally guilty parties to a dispute has been banned while the other was not. Fred Bauder 10:39, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
  • In your opinion, have the votes from sysops been more about the facts than the arguments? Perhaps a system where only sysops can vote, but non-sysops can explain things as far as necessary, might have merit as a 30 day trial to see if it works better? Jamesday 21:11, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Quickpolls are polls among Misplaced Pages regulars on issues that need to be quickly resolved. Can someone explain to me why review of sysop actions should be done in a Quickpoll anyway? We have Misplaced Pages:Requests for review of admin actions AND Misplaced Pages:Possible misuses of sysop rights for reviewing sysop abuses. How often are we going to need emergency desysoping? The only cases I can think of involve a sysop going on some sort of rampage, and in that situation you could Quickpoll and ban, just like you'd do for any other user. Isomorphic 19:32, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sysops can unblock themselves, so you'd probably need to quickpoll, unsysop, and block. At which point, why not just unsysop, if it's the sysop powers that are the problem (eg, a sysop starts blocking every editor of Misplaced Pages). Martin 23:27, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Three reverts rule - if that will be enforced diligently, uncooperative users will just do revert-edits instead of normal reverts, e.g. change word order slightly. Wikimol 20:46, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Moratorium on three revert quickpolls

Based on the above votes and discussion, I suggest a moratorium on three revert quickpolls for the next four weeks at least. During this time we may think about other ways to enforce the three revert guideline. I do agree that some of the past QPs on 3RR violations effectively turned into popularity contests, which is unfortunate.

One route I think is promising to address edit wars is to give sysops more power in enforcing a cooldown period - right now, they are already allowed to protect pages, we may simple add the authority to ban users for 24 hours if they have been warned, and if the enforcement is consistent. If the edit warrior is a sysop, we may ask them to voluntarily stop editing for 24 hours and call in a steward or developer if they refuse.

I suggest that the other quickpoll conditions stay in place.--Eloquence* 20:34, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that we have to call off enforcement of the 3-revert limit through quickpolls. Really, the only situation for which I see a strong need for a quickpoll-type mechanism is the rampage, ill-defined though that term is. I think all of the quickpolls that led to a ban could qualify as rampages. A rampage could be vandalism, inflammatory/offensive posts, excessive reverts (probably significantly more than 3), misuse of sysop capabilities, and perhaps more that I can't foresee.

Anything that's not a rampage, including individual instances of exceeding 3 reverts, sysop misbehavior, and confessed trolling (whatever trolling means), can I believe be handled through the normal dispute resolution process. They don't require the urgency of a quickpoll. However, I have an alternative idea to float as a trial balloon, which I will add momentarily. --Michael Snow 22:58, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Moratorium should be for all use of Quickpolls. They were introduced/marketed as a means to enforce the three-revert rule. To keep it for the hard-to-define "rampage" and "confessed trolling" is ridiculous and will only lead to furtherly worsened reputation. See the current call for quickpoll on TDC.

--Ruhrjung 17:15, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Actually as far as I know, Quickpolls were introduced so that admins could get community backing in blocking disruptive users and not have to make judgement calls. We had a period where admins were acting unilaterally because they had no other choice except to wait weeks for the Arbitration committee to make a decision. In the case of Plautus satire a couple months ago, we had a poll, and a strong consensus to ban a very obnoxious user, but no means of enforcing this quickly because the Quickpoll concept didn't exist yet. The fact that such judgement calls are hard is precisely why you have a Quickpoll. If it were easy, you could trust an admin to make a decision unilaterally. Isomorphic 21:51, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 20:49, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)) I can't see the sense in this moratorium. What, in the absence of some enforcement, enforces the 3 revert rule?

There's still arbitration, protection, peer pressure, and the ability for the protecting sysop to choose to revert to the version disliked by the most frequent reverter (see wikipedia:protection policy). Not much, but it is something. Martin 23:29, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 21:27, 2004 Apr 24 (UTC)) Arbitration is too slow and heavy. Protection is bad. Peer pressure is weak without enforcement.

Alternative proposal: Slowpolls

In the case of Lord Kenneth, Tannin blocked Lord Kenneth to stop a rampage, then called a quickpoll to confirm the blocking as a 24-hour ban. This action was supported by the quickpoll. I propose that we start from this as a model.

I suggest that we allow admins the authority to impose 24-hour blocks of signed-in users for rampages, based on their individual judgment. However, this must be subject to community review, and I also feel strongly that the admin who takes such an action should have something on the line. My idea is that an admin who blocks a user for a rampage should put admin status at stake when doing so. This would be done through what I'll call a slowpoll, in contrast with quickpolls.

The procedure would be something like this:

• The admin must, obviously, warn the rampaging user before imposing the block. If the rampage continues, the block can be imposed.
• After imposing the block, the admin must promptly start the slowpoll (say, within an hour).
• Failure to warn the rampaging user, or failure to start the slowpoll, would be grounds for immediate de-sysoping.
• The slowpoll is a vote on whether the admin's decision was justified.
• The slowpoll is open for 7 days to allow wider community input. Some kind of advertising is probably called for.
• The decision is based on a simple majority vote - not a consensus. If the admin cannot get majority support for the action, it is obvious that it was not supported by a consensus of the community, and the admin should give up admin status. (tie goes to the admin, presumably)
• If the initial results of the slowpoll indicate that the decision was controversial, the block should probably be reversed.
• Anyone who loses admin status through this process may re-apply in the normal fashion.

This should cause admins to consider carefully and make sure that the block is justified. We won't have problems with repeat offenders, because any admin who imposes an unjustified block will lose the ability to do so in the future. Potentially, admins will have only one bullet in their gun (sorry for the violent imagery). Meanwhile, we can have the benefits of quick action where it is needed, while also allowing the community to engage in more careful deliberation.

As I said, this is a trial balloon, so feel free to comment, or just shoot it full of holes. --Michael Snow 23:32, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I STRONGLY oppose having the admin lose his admin status if the slowpoll doesn't go in his/her favor. The chance of this happening would put a serious damper on anybody wanting to block somebody who went on a rampage. RickK

I would agree with RickK, and suggest as an alternative -- the admin who loses this slowpoll will be blocked for 24 hours (a block not to be relieved by any means). I can think of trolls I'd risk a 24 hour ban to stop, but it's hard to envision putting admin status on the line when one never knows who's paying attention to polls and how they'll perceive a situation. The threat of a day's ban (and the implied lost respect, given that the community disapproved of my decision) would be adequate penalty for unbacked action, I think. After all, all I'd be threatening someone with if the slowpoll goes my way is a day's ban and implied loss of some respect. Makes sense to me. :-) Jwrosenzweig 23:40, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I object to this, too. Why any admin who's trying to solve a crisis should risk any retribution is beyond me. RickK

I don't know if I like this principle in general yet, but I don't like the black/white "somebody loses" nature. How about instead of 51% means someone gets blocked and 49% means someone gets their sysop privileges removed, put the edges at like 80% and 20%, or 67% and 33% or something. That way when things are borderline we (as a community) can say "We disagree with your judgement, but not so much as to desysop you." moink 00:04, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Would Jwrosenzweig's 24-hour ban be better? I think it's important that admins have good judgment about consensus, and a majority against the admin is clear enough to me that the consensus wasn't there. Frankly, I suggested admin status because it's "not supposed to be a big deal". You can keep editing as you did before. I'm concerned that being overly attached to adminship only goes to support the arguments of those who say that adminship is a status symbol and that Misplaced Pages is run by a cabal. "Sysops are not imbued with any special authority", or so we say. --Michael Snow 00:21, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You make a good point, and I could certainly live without my custodial priveleges for 24 hours (or the rest of my life if I had to). But desysopping, even temp-desysopping, is often seen as a pretty severe punishment, just by virtue of its infrequency and the fact that Jimbo has been loathe to use it as a disciplinary tool. I'm afraid that this might make us lose some good contributors (sysops on average are excellent contributors) by upsetting someone who made a judgement call without malice. moink 00:26, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I object because putting any punishment on the admin who was trying to solve a crisis in good faith just shows that the community has no faith in that admin and it's a slap in the face to those of us trying to keep the place clean despite thosewho laugh off vandalism as no big deal. RickK

Well, I for one would support the 24-hour ban; desysopping goes too far, though. There needs to be something at stake for the instigator of the poll, just to avoid handing all power to sysops. Meelar 00:38, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'd support the warning > block > poll > ban timeline, but not punishment of the admin. Why on earth would we want to punish sysops? We already assume that they won't block people arbitrarily or go on rampages. Exploding Boy 08:37, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

The current system works just fine in the cases it was intended for. There's no reason to go looking for new means of enforcement. Right now, the bigger and more obvious the problem, the faster a QuickPoll can get you consensus. The problem is that the threshold for starting a QuickPoll has been too low, so we get long drawn-out arguments on cases that really aren't urgent at all. Even worse was when we felt obligated by the system to start a quickpoll on a user who was acting in good faith (Stevenj) just because of the 3RR. The only thing we need to worry about is how to have quickpolls only when we actually need them. Isomorphic 16:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I support this proposal, as long as possible cases for blocking/slowpoll action are narrowly defined by specific policies, to avoid lynch-mob rule.

Also if a sysop is personally involved in a dispute with the user, he cannot be assumed to be neutral. Every police or court system has rules to prevent such conflict of interest.

About desysopping: The point is not to punish the sysop; it is to make pretty much all sysops spend some time off-duty - so they realise the uncomfortable situation of a non-sysop; so they will maybe behave more nicely next time they are sysop. This is how judges are judged - by how likely their verdicts are to be reversed on appeal. But likely, sysops will fight against this proposition which remove them their godpower JRR Trollkien (see warning) 22:06, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

May I ask what goodies or godpowers you actually think of, and how being a non-sysop is that very "uncomfortable"? /Tuomas 23:26, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You should ask that to people like RickK, Jwrosenzweig or Meelar. As Michael Snow said, 'I'm concerned that being overly attached to adminship only goes to support the arguments of those who say that adminship is a status symbol and that Misplaced Pages is run by a m:cabal. "Sysops are not imbued with any special authority", or so we say.'. JRR Trollkien (see warning) 23:32, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I ask you, since it's you who uses it as an argument. /Tuomas 23:46, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

My objections have nothing to do with any supposed godlike powers. They have to do with the slap in the face that desysoping a sysop gives. And as Jimbo has said, he opposes desysoping in general. RickK 23:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In addition, sysopship is given pretty easily to people who deserve it. Unlike trolls. RickK 23:37, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Desysoping a sysop should be no severe punishment or "slap in the face" -- EVERY sysop should spend some time off-duty, based on how likely their actions are to be reversed. If, as you say, "sysopship is given pretty easily to people who deserve it", they should have no problem re-applying in the normal fashion. JRR Trollkien (see warning) 23:42, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This seems like both a terrific waste of time and a good way to ensure that no one ever gets listed for a "slowpoll." Sysops have no godlike powers. Most of them spend their time quietly editing and watching the articles they care about. Probably the "power" they use most often is the rollback. They're not immune from punishment as it is; few sysops abuse their so-called power, and if they do they're called on it pretty fast. I think this proposal is ridiculous. Exploding Boy 00:09, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

I have no sympathy for the quirks of this proposal, but I can't agree with your rosy picture. If sysops do wrong, they are considered human or well-meaning and defended by other sysops. This is natural. It's how social beings are wired. But keep it in mind, please! /Tuomas 00:40, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A quickpoll was not needed when I went on my rampage. I should have been instantly blocked according to the rules, quickpoll or no. I do not apologize for my behavior, as I'm sick of how the corrupt system works. It's ridiculous. Quickpolls do little more than hurt users with good-intentions on certain topics. I propose greater arbitration for the quacks and goons who pollute articles, not silly "let's get someone if they revert > 3 times IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD EVEN THOUGH IT ONLY SAYS "PER DAY" WHICH WOULD MEAN AFTER 12:00... gah, so corrupt...

Fix the system. I'm sick of being punished for trying to keep an article NPOV and accurate. I've been working on for months now, trying to keep Reddi's crazy edits from misleading people, and few other people seemed to care-- their policy is "let the wikiprocess sort is out", which is basically saying "Let someone else do it." What happens when everyone else decides to just let the "wikiprocess" sort it out? NOTHING GETS GODDAMN DONE.- Lord Kenneth 02:24, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

Re: Tuomas's comments: there are at least two admins whose behaviour I strongly disagree with, but they confine themselves to being a nuisance on certain articles rather than abusing their admin powers. So far I've not seen them user their admin powers (blocking, for example) against other users -- but if they did I've no doubt they'd be called on it pdq. Exploding Boy 13:22, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

Compare with the Quickpoll(s) against User:172, or earlier discussion on him scaring users away.
--Ruhrjung 19:24, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)