Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:53, 22 October 2004

Why are all those names iLinked? Unless anyone's got a serious objection, I'm removing the links to people who don't, and likely will not, have articles. Oberiko 23:16, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I agree. :-)

Israeli settlement "illegality" in Israel woman's death

Xed, in Wiki's "NPOV" rules, you either have to delete the statement "considered illegal by the UN (general assembly)", or add the other side of it which is that it is NOT considered illegal by Israel or the UN Security Council, both of which have much greater power than the UN General Assembly. The wording is weird if you include the other side, so just delete all references to it, since it doesn't make a difference anyways, unless you want to blame the victim here for her death (which I suspect some want to do, but I'll assume the best about you).

For your request to "give a source", I can't prove a negative (since the UNSC doesn't think it's illegal, there is no "affirming" source). However, the overriding UNSC document is Security Council Resolution 242, which is the source of most of the confusion here. Read below

]. Note the lack of any supporting evidence for illegality of settlements.

Terrapin 20:36, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Since you can't provide a source, I think it's probably best if you leave these sorts of articles alone as you can't seem to control your bias. Thanks -- Xed 21:02, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There is NO source that says the UN Security Council and United States thinks that the settlements are ILLEGAL, because they DON'T think they are illegal. That's the point (and the source provided, the main source in UNSC, intentionally says NOTHING about it, because it's NOT illegal). Unless you have a source that says these entities think it is illegal, then, to them, it is NOT. Basic reading comprehension. Anyone? Anyone? Am I wrong? Terrapin 21:09, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If the UNSC doesn't mention them, them why should this article mention UNSC's non-position, unless for reasons of partisanship? Please note that personal attacks and threatening remarks are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. - Xed 21:25, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Because a non-statement on a position IS a position, particularly in the United Nations Security Council or government policy (do you expect every group to AFFIRM every stance? "The Security Council Resolution 563 States that Milk is good for healthy bones"). And doubly so when the entities mentioned have FAR more clout than the General Assembly. Hell, the League of Women Voters has more clout and force. Literally.

It's irrelevant what the UNGA feels about them, since the UNGA is not a body which sets or rules on International law, and its resolutions have no binding force. Jayjg 21:45, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Events - Oct 18 dispute

In my last edit put Hamas-affiliated website (as noted by CSmonitor) statement into context by addig "both side claimed victory..." and added IDF Jacob Delal statement (as queted bt CSmonitor) to balance. I think it resolves the differences. Please comment here before starting another edit-war. MathKnight 20:17, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Isn't the name of this operation Days of Repentence? Evolver of Borg 22:11, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In Hebrew the name is "Yemey Teshuva" where "Teshuva" is literally means "answer" or a "reply". To "return in Teshuva" is to become an adherent religious Jew after you been a secular Jew. "Repentence" can also be valid translation but all the English-speaking news networks use the term "Days of Penitence". MathKnight 14:23, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Different estimates of death tolls provided

What is the issue with them? Jayjg 02:28, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would think post-operation totals from Associated Press and Reuters would be considered at least neutral, if not pro-Palestinian. Particularly as one of them gets their totals from Palestinian medics. Jayjg 04:01, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm also not sure how providing the range of estimates comprises "playing number games with the dead". Jayjg 04:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What range of estimates? The death toll is crystal clear. Every fatality is listed by name, age and village on the that you and your friends voted to delete. You play games with the numbers to inflate the body count of militants to justify another Israeli atrocity in a long series. Your motives are also crystal clear. Alberuni 04:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The end of the article lists different estimates from 4 sources, Reuters, Associated Press, the Al Mezan Center, and Israel. Why is the Al Mezan's tally the only correct one, and everyone else's (including that of Palestinian medics) suppressed? Jayjg 15:29, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Quote of widow non-notable

Why is the quote of the widow notable? Why does it belong in an encyclopedia article? Jayjg 02:29, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Occupation colonies"

Does anyone seriously believe describing Israeli settlements as "occupation colonies" is NPOV? Please take NPOV seriously. Jayjg 02:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I believe Occupied territories is NPOV. The settlements are colonies. What would you call them? Disputed facts on the ground? Your POV is getting in the way. Alberuni 03:14, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I personally would describe them as Israeli towns and villages, but that's not important. More relevant, the article should describe them the way they were already described, and the way Misplaced Pages describes them, as Israeli settlements, which is more NPOV than any of the other descriptions you've provided. Jayjg

Haha, you consider illegal Jewish settlements on Occupied Palestinian Territory to be Israeli towns and villages. Well, your POV is somewhere to the right of Ariel Sharon. But we already knew that. Alberuni 03:53, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please use the Talk: pages to discuss article content, not me. Misplaced Pages has a name for these places, Israeli settlements, let's just use it. Jayjg 04:03, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Israeli settlements should be in Israel. These are Jewish settlements in Occupied Territory. Alberuni 04:41, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Your opinions about the way the world "should" run are interesting, but the world and Misplaced Pages both have a term for these towns, let's just use it. Jayjg 21:36, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Quote from Anan

The quote from Anan on Oct 3 is already in the timeline; why duplicate it in the summary? Jayjg 02:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Analysts on both sides agree"

"Analysts on both sides agree that Israel's proclamation of success is premature because the cause for attacks on Israel has not been removed and this bloody invasion has probably inspired more Palestinians to join active resistance."

Which analysts agreed to this? Did they really refer to it as a "bloody invasion"? Please provide references for this claim, the original source showed that "analysts on both sides" said something quite different: . Jayjg 02:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Analysts on both sides agree that Israel's invasion will not stop rocket attacks on illegal Jewish settlements in Occupied Palestinian Territory. Alberuni 02:35, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

But where did the analysts on both sides "agree that Israel's proclamation of success is premature because the cause for attacks on Israel has not been removed and this bloody invasion has probably inspired more Palestinians to join active resistance"? That is the claim made in the article. Jayjg 02:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sderot is an "illegal Jewish settlements in Occupied Palestinian Territory"? Analysts don't say such things because analysts know geography.

The quotation above is clearly POV and the terminology you just used is unacceptable in Wiki articles. MathKnight 10:35, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Who sets the policy on use of terminology like Occupied Palestinian Territories in Misplaced Pages? --Alberuni 22:09, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What does this have to do with the claim that "Analysts on both side agree"? Which analysts, and where did they say that? Jayjg 22:15, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Alberuni (2:38 revert was before your 2:40 comments, perhaps you should learn to read the time)

Please note the time of my comments above, they were all before 2:38 except my response to your 2:38 comment. You didn't even respond to the first 3 of my comments. Jayjg 03:16, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Entire article duplicated!

Alberuni, now you've duplicated the entire article, including events and timeline, and insisted on reverting to that several times! The article has suddently doubled in size, with no new information. What is the point of doing this? Jayjg 15:31, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing the glitch. --Alberuni 22:07, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Discussion of objections

1. The widow quote

The widow quote is notable and useful because it sums up the operation and its results:

The Qassams, the Israeli wanton and indiscriminate destruction and continued defiance of Palestinians in the face of it are all here in one sentences. The only thing missing is the deaths, otherwise we could replace the entire article with this quote. HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

The widow quote is a non-encyclopedic emotional response intended to invoke an emotional response. Dry facts, or statements by senior political figures or internationally reconized analysts are more relevant. Jayjg 15:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you have not shed any tears over it. Opinion of ordinary Palestinians, without whose support there would be no resistance, is more important than what some stuffed suit says. HistoryBuffEr 01:53, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)

2. Occupation colonies

Israel's occupation is a matter of fact under the International law and facts are inherently neutral. "Colonies" is an obvious and neutral term for places inhabited by the occupier/colonist (and "settlements" is obviously a pro-occupier term as it masks their true nature.) HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

Whether it is legally an occupation is widely disputed under International law; I'd like you to quote the relevant law, by the way. "Colonies" is an obviously NPOV term for the Israel towns and villages in the disputed territories. "Settlements" itself is often seen as anti-Israel POV, since they are obviously simply towns and villages. Regardless, Israeli settlements is the generally used term, and the term which Misplaced Pages uses as well. Jayjg 15:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The dispute exists only in your extremist head. Even your Fuehrer admits it, so get over it. HistoryBuffEr 01:53, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)

3. Analysts on both sides agree

This "operation" has been widely discussed in the media (TV, newspapers, web). I have seen and read a handful of such discussions and the sentiment is pretty much unanimous, as described. If someone disagrees with the analysis, bring it on here (if you're good at it maybe we can sign you up for the next talk show :) HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

You have reversed the burden of proof. If there are analysts who say exactly what the article claims, then quote them, or even better link to them saying it. Jayjg 15:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You have yet to tell us what do you disagree with in the analysis, without dispute there is nothing to prove. (That the invasion was bloody is a simple fact, if that's what bothers you.) HistoryBuffEr 01:53, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)

4. Quote from Annan

The quote from Annan (and Arab League call) is an obvious lead in to the next paragraph talking about UNSC discussions. Otherwise, the next paragrapgh hangs in the air (why the UNSC suddenly started debating?) HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

The UNSC "suddenly" starts debating just about every military action that Israel takes, regardless of what Annan does or doesn't say. The quote itself interrupted the flow of the overview with needless detail, and was simply duplicated from the actual detail section, given below. Jayjg 15:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

General rants are not considered effective arguments. The paragraph needs a lead in, and the short and NPOV sentence does it well. HistoryBuffEr

HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

""Laughing My Fucking Ass Off"

User Terrapin seems to think that the violent and bloody death of more than 130 people is something that you Laugh Your Fucking Ass Off about. Personally, I think this shows he is incapable of maintain a NPOV on this subject, and he would be best off joining the army or becoming a successful serial killer. - Xed 15:34, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was laughing at the assertion that inserting "bloody invasion" is a NEUTRAL POV (NPOV) statement. Casualties are listed, there is no confirmation of just how "bloody" anything was, it's just baiting material. I think you might need to take a break from Wiki for awhile. Terrapin 15:39, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So 130 deaths is not bloody? What would you describe as - peaceful? - Xed 15:55, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Here's some adjectives you can use instead of "bloody" (which was chosen only because its the most "visceral" and baiting adjective you can find, outside of maybe "bloodthirsty"). If you want, you can make the edit. Here they are: "violent, destructive, damaging,". There are others less obnoxious and baiting than "bloody". Use your head and enthrall me with your writing skills! Terrapin 16:01, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also, the quote implied that analysts from both sides described it as a "bloody invasion". Jayjg 15:42, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Did Xed just go insane?

See below. Terrapin 16:13, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

For examples of insanity, it would be best for you to consult a nearby mirror. Please get to work changing all the articles below - as your arguments suggest this is the only course open to you. -- Xed 16:22, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

* O.K., I will! POV statements in other articles doesn't validate the POV statement in THIS article. I will change them. Do I have to do them in alphabetical order, or can I start with this one? Operation Days of Penitence. I'll start with this one and work my way through some of these over time. I take it I don't have to change article titles like "bloody mary". ;-) Terrapin 16:27, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Come back to this article once you're done- Xed 16:32, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Now your argument is that I have to do them in alphabetical order, or in the order you require? How does finishing a job that would take weeks justify your position? Is your position now that you are indeed wrong, and now are just trying to buy time? It would appear so, because you've dropped any coherent argument in favor of creating weird "edit rules". Are you O.K.? I'm serious. People who are unable to maintain a clear focus in arguments can sometimes be helped by either an MAOI or Serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Terrapin 16:41, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Personal attacks are against the rules of Misplaced Pages. You can edit the articles in any order you prefer. Come back when you are finished. - Xed 16:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Rules which you have violated as well. 2 wrongs does not make a right.--Josiah 18:38, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for allowing me to pick the order. I start on THIS one. Terrapin 18:08, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and I HAVE changed some of them, too! I've started with some of the more pro-islam/pro-palestine articles (they're usually way more POV). Your brothers in arms thank you. Terrapin 16:45, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Interesting that you start on those. "no one will question the POV of this user" - Xed 16:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Exactly; POV in other articles doesn't justify POV here. Define "bloody". Jayjg 16:30, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bloody

A brief list of articles which use the word "bloody". It seems that in all other conflicts the word bloody can be used, with no one complaining. But when Palestinians die, it can NEVER be bloody. How odd. I expect you to change all these articles to remove the bloody, or leave the bloody in this article - Xed 16:08, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1. Algeria (13560 bytes)

2. Anarchy (5537 bytes)

3. Argentina (14547 bytes)

4. Attila the Hun (23860 bytes)

5. American Civil War (35844 bytes)

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1: Bloody Sunday can refer to any of (in chronological o...

3: *Bloody Sunday 1887, London, England, [[13 November...

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5: *Bloody Sunday 1905, Russia, January 22, [[1905...

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4: Bloody Mary is the name used to refer to Queen [[Mary...

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32. Bloody Sunday (Northern Ireland 1972) (9230 bytes)

1: ...Bloody Sunday (Ireland 1920)]].) For others see Bloody Sunday (disambiguation page)

3:

, 1972, in an incident since known as Bloody Sunday, twenty-seven people were shot by [[Uni...

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42. Caligula (11198 bytes)

43. Catherine of Aragon (10511 bytes)

2: ...age to her after she had born him a girl, later Bloody Mary.

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3: ... to forment a rebellion, which Saga put down in a bloody civil war.

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1: ...he history of Guinea-Bissau is long and bloody.

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72. Horror film (11477 bytes)

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76. History of Palestine (22716 bytes)

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79. History of Afghanistan (18353 bytes)

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81. Hamas (22293 bytes)

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1: ... trade|arms]] to Iran, which was engaged in a bloody war with its neighbor Iraq from 1980 to [...

88. Icon (7127 bytes)

89. Irish language (32894 bytes)

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91. Ignatius of Antioch (2684 bytes)

5: ...icine to immortality". The very strong desire for bloody martyrdom in the arena, which Ignatius expresses ...

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5: ...ary 26]], 1885. Omdurman was the scene of the bloody battle (September 2, [...

105. Library of Alexandria (20377 bytes)

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117. Marriage (22116 bytes)

118. Martin Luther King, Jr. (13418 bytes)

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120. Mary I of Scotland (19462 bytes)

4: ... first cousin once removed Mary I of England (Bloody Mary), who lived at approximately the same time (...

121. Mary I of England (23998 bytes)

2: ...d; as a consequence, she is sometimes known as Bloody Mary. Her religious policies, however, were in...

122. Maori (8163 bytes)

123. Mohammed Zahir Shah (2637 bytes)

5: ...he late 1970s. He has remained aloof from the bloody feuds that followed the Soviet withdrawal in [[19...

124. Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (19537 bytes)

125. Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/NATO at the 2004 Summer Olympics (5693 bytes)

126. Northwest Territories (13314 bytes)

127. Politics of Nepal (9910 bytes)

128. Nigeria (13701 bytes)

129. History of Nigeria (27036 bytes)

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131. No Wave (2395 bytes)

3: ...d confrontation ("little orphans running thru the bloody snow/no more ankles and no more clothes"-Teenage ...

132. Northern Alliance (2910 bytes)

5: ...] in 1992 from the Soviet-backed regime. This bloody feuding between forces loyal to President [[Burha...

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2: ... it", "go to Hell", and "damn you". The word bloody may belong in this category. They are sometim...

142. Al-Aqsa Intifada (38831 bytes)

143. Persia (22309 bytes)

144. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (18202 bytes)

145. Qing Dynasty (27620 bytes)

146. Russian Revolution of 1917 (10994 bytes)

147. Siege (30508 bytes)

148. History of Slovakia (42324 bytes)

149. History of Somalia (29456 bytes)

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151. History of Sudan (18141 bytes)

152. Smallpox (24515 bytes)

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155. Background history of the September 11, 2001 attacks (16415 bytes)

156. Spanish-American War (16373 bytes)

157. Samurai (38305 bytes)

158. Stockholm Bloodbath (5465 bytes)

159. Six-Day War (32055 bytes)

160. Saddam Hussein (51735 bytes)

161. Gordon Keith (1598 bytes)

162. Economy of Taiwan (12341 bytes)

163. Taiwan (11124 bytes)

164. Tuberculosis (37796 bytes)

1: ...o consume people from within with its symptoms of bloody cough, fever, pallor, and long relentless wasting...

165. The Troubles (15413 bytes)

166. The Thing (3137 bytes)

167. Tower of London (9163 bytes)

168. Tabasco sauce (2376 bytes)

169. The Clangers (3782 bytes)

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175. USS Indianapolis (CA-35) (22975 bytes)

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177. Volkswagen (11764 bytes)

178. Virgin Mary (cocktail) (353 bytes)

1: ...f a popular non-alcoholic cocktail. It is a Bloody Mary made without vodka. Therefore, it is e...

3: ...her of Jesus]], by analogy with the fact that the Bloody Mary was named after Mary I of England.

179. Weimar Republic (28786 bytes)

180. Worcestershire (6921 bytes)

181. Worcestershire sauce (5635 bytes)

2: ...portant ingredient in Caesar salads and the Bloody Mary, an alcohol drink. Lea & Perrins ships it ...

182. List of cocktails (10183 bytes)

183. War of 1812 (36982 bytes)

184. Yellow fever (4458 bytes)

185. Yet Another (1004 bytes)

186. History of Yugoslavia (16495 bytes)

187. 1990s (15379 bytes)

188. 1980s (20928 bytes)

189. Weapons of Middle-earth (17193 bytes)

190. 1960 (21281 bytes)

191. 1972 (26314 bytes)

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204. Kiev (20585 bytes)

205. Soldier of Fortune (1996 bytes)

206. Kenneth Williams (3602 bytes)

207. Backronym (12270 bytes)

208. Til Death Us Do Part (4127 bytes)

3: ...tream programmes to feature the swear word "bloody". The show was one of several held up by [[Mary...

209. Aristocracy (5338 bytes)

210. Protestant Reformation (23140 bytes)

211. Avignon papacy (23681 bytes)

212. Four horsemen of the Apocalypse (7272 bytes)

5: ... The red color of the second horse could mean bloody war, and the sword held by the rider symbolizes w...

213. History of Argentina (17927 bytes)

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215. History of Bangladesh (13931 bytes)

216. Misplaced Pages:Reference desk (74463 bytes)

217. Benetton (1341 bytes)

3: ...panicking crowds jumping off of a sinking ship, a bloody, unwashed newborn baby, and a death row inmat...

218. Proetus (2449 bytes)

3: ...s that the prince had been frightened of the big, bloody knife and the king tossed it aside to calm the ch...

219. Buffy Summers (5498 bytes)

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221. History of Bosnia and Herzegovina (33196 bytes)

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223. History of Belarus (9452 bytes)

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225. U.S. invasion of Afghanistan (54614 bytes)

226. Famous women in history (13514 bytes)

227. Battle of Hurtgen Forest (3983 bytes)

228. Axis of evil (13187 bytes)

229. Franco-Prussian War (4020 bytes)

230. Biafra (3829 bytes)

231. History of Ireland (33157 bytes)

232. History of Serbia and Montenegro (2213 bytes)

5: ...Battle of Kosovo|Kosovo]] (1389), that ended in a bloody draw. He turned back the invaders, but was killed...

233. William Byrd (8432 bytes)

5: ...s, from the Netherlands, even from Spain. “Bloody Mary” spent her brief reign overreacting to...

234. Napoleonic Wars (11817 bytes)

235. Corfu (11507 bytes)

236. Rocky (3797 bytes)

5: ... match seriously and the fighters beat each other bloody. But Rocky refuses to give up and fights Creed fo...

237. Chinese democracy movement (5887 bytes)

3: ...erthrow the reactionaries via a long and possibly bloody fight.

238. E. coli O157:H7 (14459 bytes)

1: ...United States alone. Infection often leads to bloody diarrhea, and occasionally to kidney fail...

239. Misplaced Pages:Squashed bugs (51247 bytes)

240. Russian history, 1892-1920 (28620 bytes)

241. Phosgene (5289 bytes)

242. Crimea (9718 bytes)

243. Anne of Cleves (4644 bytes)

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245. Buffy the Vampire Slayer (20050 bytes)

246. Russian Revolution of 1905 (15280 bytes)

247. Battle of Chancellorsville (14284 bytes)

248. Battle of the Wilderness (5837 bytes)

5: ...vicinity between 1862 and 1864, including the bloody Battle of Chancellorsville in May 1863. I...

249. Joe DiMaggio (12781 bytes)

250. Battle of Spotsylvania Court House (5856 bytes)

3: ... Meade]]. Taking place less than a week after the bloody, inconclusive Battle of the Wilderness, it pi.