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Revision as of 08:55, 12 November 2004

2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities

This has been a tough one for me to do. I'm normally quite leary of the VfD process, but I think we need to confirm some of our principles here. Let me start out by saying this is not about partisan issues - it is about how we at Misplaced Pages want to handle "current events" and the danger of doing so.

This article was split off from a section in U.S. presidential election, 2004 into it's own page. Unfortunately, that move has opened it up to massive expansion - overshadowing the real impact of this issue as reported in external sources.

(correction-this article was at no time a split off - FT2)'

(also note: Netoholic modified significantly a whole section from the U.S. presidential election, 2004 article ) - Ta bu shi da yu 02:55, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please do not use this vote to debate the sides of the issue. The problem as I see it is in the approach this article is taking. The way this article stands, it seems to only be here as a "conclusion searching for evidence" and we are simply adding to an internet blog rumor mill by performing our own "investigation".

A summary of the problem points (more expansion on these given on its Talk page):

• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability - that the "raw data" used comes from dubious sources (partisan websites, blogs, and even, yes, images uploaded to ImageShack with no traceability). Remove that, and we are left with is a collection of scattered, unlinked reports of problems which are typical of all elections.
• Misplaced Pages:No original research - some of our editors have produced charts and graphs based on the dubious data. Statistical analysis is outside our scope. It is our responsibility to summarize the conclusions of others, not to formulate them. This article is nothing but an essay.
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view - from the article title to the content, this page draws a conclusion for our readers that there is a conspiracy, rather than problems faced during most elections.
• Misplaced Pages is not a mere collection of external links - This article is essentially linking to every minor report and rumor on the 'net. While there is "nothing wrong with adding both lists of links and lists of on-line references you used", this article is not using those links as references, but rather as evidence of its conclusions.

I ask that it be deleted, so that outside agencies do not use the bold speculation of a few of our editors as corroborating evidence. Making the history of the article unavailable is the only sure way to do that. We can start over by re-adding a summary of the speculations to the main election article in a responsible way. -- Netoholic @ 20:01, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

Summary of opposing view

This is being placed here to show the counter view — something the original author saw fit to remove from this page. Might as well show the opposition to the delete as well. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Article

The reasons for VfD are incorrect - the article and its sources:

(1) Meets "Verifiability" in a big way - sources are House Committee letters, Federal Expert testimony, Official poll results, etc

(2) Meets "Cite Sources" guidelines in respect of any weblogs or other less formal sources

(3) Is explicitly within the terms of "Original research". Not only the article does not propose any original idea, but also the guideline states specifically:

"However all of the above constitute acceptable content once they have become a permanent feature of the public landscape, for example if ... the ideas have become newsworthy they have been repeatedly and independently documented..."

(4) Advocates no position but merely states evidence (to which opposing evidence can be added).

Talk page consensus: "The neutrality criteria is (1) that the information contained must be accurate capable of verification, and must be sourced, and (2) that evidence of irregularities and evidence that there were not irregularities are both fairly represented.

... Should any person on either side wish to add any kind of evidence that the election was not in fact irregular, evidence that the voting machines were in fact not subject to irregularities, evidence that any item on this article is inaccurate, or evidence that any expert statement is implausible and suspect, then that should be added to this article."

(5) In respect of "a mere collection of rumors":

To describe matters that respected House Committee members saw fit to write not one but two letters within 4 days to the GOA expressing alarm, where Federal Hearings have heard expert testimony as to the seriousness and potential for these issues, which can be found in the reputable printed national papers of many countries, where many thousands of individual American voters have stated they witnessed incidents that suggested the same personally, and where official data of the US government itself suggests an significant issue, as "a mere collection of links", "every minor rumor" and "partisan junk" might suggest Netoholic is highly partial in this matter.

Delete

1. Netoholic @ 20:01, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC) -- I myself am on the side of Kerry, and am reasonably sure some irregularities happened - but no more than other elections and not enough to warrant this article.
2. Uncleanupable, and therefore without potential to become encyclopedic - just getting the link for this off of Template:In the news caused a massive revert war on the main page involving at least two admins. See history starting at 17:27, Nov 10, 2004, when Neutrality made the addition. - RedWordSmith 20:59, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

   I was one of the admins. I have ceased trying to include it as news (I made a mistake in judgement over this one), however this should not affect whether the article is kept or not. Please vote on whether to keep the article over its own merits, not on the edits done for related articles. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:05, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

3. Is Misplaced Pages supposed to be an activist, partisan website? Because even those who want to keep the article seem to want to do so because it's "an important story" that the "major media" isn't covering. Put the page up next month, when the issues have all been resolved. Three quarters of the assertions are unatributed opinion without any citation or link. The statements that ARE cited come from unreliable, partisan internet websites. I'm sorry, but democraticunderground and commondreams are not wikipedia quality resources.

   • Contributor - please sign! Also, check out other articles that were kept on VfD. See Christian views of women. Also note that we have potentially partisan and explosive articles like the one on the Arab-Israeli Conflict. These have been constantly editted to NPOV, and are not going to be removed any time soon. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:05, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
   • A large part of the motive for wanting the article is to have a neutral reference for evidence on both sides, as this controbversy goes on, whereby those who become interested in the question (and there will be many who want to prove or refute it) can find accurate impartial information so far as we're able as a community. This is well within the bounds of wikipedia, if we can reach consensus on subjective matters such as homosexuality, abortion and euthenasia, then we can surely summarise in a NPOV way purported evidence relevant to a debate as we don't even have to draw conclusions to do so. Thats my motive - a clean sourced article that I can read as time goes on to understand the issue, and that grows and reflects what is best known by many people, and its qualified sources. I can't speak for others. FT2 06:11, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

4. Delete for now. This article might be fixable someday but today, it's pointless speculation which is distracting good editors from more important articles. I recommend that we wait a few months and let the official investigations do their work. Then someone can write a clean and comprehensive article without all the disputes. Rossami (talk) 05:33, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) moved to correct place

Merge

1. Significant portions of this article relate directly only to electronic voting and should be moved there. This would significantly reduce the size of this page, and allow the information pertaining directly to the 2004 Election controversies be covered here. Much of the background research provided here does not belong. In addition, the POV of what remains truly needs to be cleaned up.--Radioastro 22:15, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
2. This article is a veritable breeding ground for half-truths, conjecture, and Michael-Moore-like propaganda. This is not a real controversy in the news so it shouldn't be covered in depth. 2000 was different...that was a huge controversy and should have been covered in detail. Most of this info should be trimmed to be a small, succinct part of the main U.S. presidential election, 2004 article or whatever pertinent articles. --Doctorcherokee 00:45, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
3. Merge most of the information with the main 2004 US election article and the rest with the article on electronic voting (there is no need to independantly discuss the same issues twice). I've already offered to do this in Misplaced Pages's IRC room myself after I get over a recent surgery. I believe that once all of the strawmen, unreliable/unverifiable sources and numerous POV statements are removed and a bit of condensing is done it will easily fit under its own header on the main article. Information as it comes in can then be added as it is verified. If merging it with the main article becomes impossible, I also agree with another user that said this page needs to be renamed to "2004 U.S. Election Voting controversies" (or something similar). In any case the page is in sore need of a cleanup and de-POVing before it goes ANYWHERE. Reene (リニ) 07:29, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Keep

1. Keep and clean the article of original research. This is certainly something that has gained national attention. (Not as much as 2000, of course). Just monitor this article closely and make sure it stays out of the realm of original research, and within the realm of verifiability. —siroχo 20:16, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
2. Based on the criterion on Misplaced Pages:Deletion_policy, deleting this entire page is an absolutely unreasonable response to contested content. The entire page does not warrant deletion, in that the ONLY criterion voiced as {potentially} applicable in the 'May Require Deletion' section is thus far 'Original Research', which can of course be addressed in process. Methods and Processes exist for discussing the issues intelligently (esp. scrubbing invalid, original research), and opting for deletion is not a reasoned response to the natural differences in interpretation and opinions that make up this Wiki article. Honestly, I think this request is ill-considered. (this unsigned vote was left by anon User:66.108.161.196)
3. Keep. This article constitutes original research, and it needs to be gutted and torn apart. However there is some valid information here, so it shouldn't be deleted. Rhobite 20:23, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
4. Keep, but rewrite in an NPOV fashion. RickK 20:25, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
5. Kevin Baas | talk 20:26, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
6. Keep, the article is not original research as FT2 explains in depth on the talk page. Some clean up is warranted. There seemingly has been a systematic attempt to damage various aspects of the article using every "wikipedia trick in the book" for the last 18 hours or so. Zen Master 20:33, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
7. Keep. Important and interesting issue. The article could benefit from some cleanup and should be checked for NPOV problems. Martg76 20:57, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
8. Keep. This article constitutes original research, and it needs to be reviewed. But in a world without a paper trail, math or Stat proof is all that is available and with the results of the math now being done this article has potential to become encyclopedic. There is valid information here, so it shouldn't be deleted. user:papau
9. Keep, but clean up. This is indeed a national issue, and is real. The article right now is a bit of a mess, but far from irrecoverable. This falls in with Netoholic's all-or-nothing attitude about this article in other areas as well (see his bid to delete the Controversial3 template). --Spud603 21:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
10. Keep the article but, once this foolish VfD listing is disposed of, move it to 2004 U.S. election voting controversies. There's been discussion on the article's talk page about the title. Improper capitalization should be removed; the addition of "voting" is to exclude controversies like the bulge under Bush's jacket in the debate. As for the substance, the subject obviously merits an article. It's been extensively discussed in the media. Ralph Nader has formally demanded a recount in New Hampshire, based in part on one of the issues addressed in the article, the discrepancies between exit polls and Diebold machine results. (I'll add this to the article.) Concerns that particular portions of the article might constitute original research or otherwise be inappropriate should be addressed through comments on the talk page and through RfC, both of which are already in progress. JamesMLane 21:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
11. Keep. The article is well researched, and this information needs to be known, ESPECIALLY with the mainstream media burying the story.
12. Keep.kizzle 21:20, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
13. Keep. I found the article to be useful and it's certainly a valid topic. Most of the objections raised by the submitter could be addressed by sending this article to cleanup. —Psychonaut 21:26, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
14. Keep, but needs some work, especially in POV. Some of this could qualify as "original research,"; (and needs to be fixed in that regard) but the article itself is not entirely such. NiceGuyJoey 21:29, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
15. Keep. If (and IMO 'when') the election fraud issue is resolved, the pertinence of the page will become eminently clear. In the meantime, that there is a conflict is certainly on topic for a reference site. Yes, it needs some work. Yes, finding someone relatively neutral to shepherd that work won't be easy. No, those two things taken together do *not*, IMO, constitute a valid reason to delete the page. Does Misplaced Pages really want to contribute to "History is written by the winners"? Baylink 21:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
16. Keep. Definitely...Problems were widely expected before the election, so it is important to have an article that describes what did and did not cause problems. This should be done without original research and in accordance with the NPOV policy. If you think that the article contents violates these policies, modify it, but I cannot understand how one can believe that deletion is the way to solve this problem. — David Remahl 21:40, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
17. VfD is a bad place to make editorial decision. The question is not the article is good or bad, but is whehther we need a parmanent deletion for some particular reason like copyright-vio. -- Taku 22:24, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
18. Keep. It is very important to keep this article on here, when the mainstream media will not cover it. It's the truth and nothing but. MinnyBean 22:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
19. Keep. anthony 警告 21:26, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
20. FT2 22:39, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
21. Keep: This is important information not readily available elsewhere. [[User:Hollymark|Hollymark) (moved to correct location)
22. Keep. If the data is inaccurate someone should fix them. However, these are ongoing events and with any ongoing event there is alway inaccuracies and misinformation. To not cover these stories, correct or incorrect, would be to go against the spirit of Misplaced Pages in my view. --Butter 23:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
23. Keep for the reasons I've already outlined on the article's talk page. Shane King 23:41, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
24. Keep --Stewie Wiki 23:59, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
25. Keep Ducker 00:02, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
26. Keep BlahBlah42 00:07 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
27. Keep It is appropriate for wikipedia to note the existence of controversies and the issues they involve. While I agree that much work needs to be done on this article (especially in the NPOV area), I think an improved article on the subject would be an appropriate thing for wikipedia to carry. --Mosesklein 00:12, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
28. Keep Most references from reputable sources (directly or calculations based on official counts) - no valid reasons given to list the page content as "inacurate" (and even less to qualify it as "junk") - Content important for future reference to electronic voting machines and associated problems. Might need some editing. Eric514 00:17, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
29. Keep This page has excellent potential for a resource regarding the 2004 election. Would anyone argue that the 2000 Florida recount not be included?? Of course, editing, updating, and additional sources for raw data would be helpful. But there is obviously and certainly no cause for complete and irreversible deletion. jwouden 00:38, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
30. Keep, alas. Accusations like this will be flying for some time, ungrounded though they may be, and we might as well have a place for them. Of course it will be a magnet for POV pushers and troublemakers, but in its absence so would the main 2004 election page, so no loss there. VeryVerily 00:42, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
31. Keep As long as it is dealing with documented sources, it should be here. We have plenty of articles with thinner documentation and larger margins of error. 66.30.79.242 01:10, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
32. Keep There is nothing wrong with this article existing. It needs cleanup however. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
33. Keep. What FT2 said below. ] 02:01, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
34. Keep. Solid article. Elizabeth D 8:20 CST Nov 11 2004
35. Keep. There was a 2004 election. It had controversies. It had irregularities. I'm not sure in what fantasy world the 2004 election happened and there were no controversies or irregularities, but in the real world, there were controversies that have been noted by far more than "the Internet rumor mill", and there is no reason to delete an article which describes them. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
36. Keep as far as I'm concerned the Secretary of state and attorney general of ohio both stating that over 90,000 votes had been discarded is verification enough for me that some weird sh-- is going on. Just because CNN and ABC are in on the scam doesn't mean we need to be.Keep/fact-check/verify/expand/nominate for Featured status when finished and finish asapPedant 03:07, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
37. Keep. It looks like the guilty side is whining about having a hand caught in the cookie jar. If, after all the investigations are finished, they are innocent (not likely), then edit as needed. Otherwise, please keep it up. The public has a right to know. Also, Netoholic's track record seems sketchy at best.Shelly S. 5:08 HST Nov 11 2004
38. Keep. A particularly poor article, but should be fixed (and cleansed of original research), not deleted. --Delirium 03:15, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
39. Keep. Bad article, good issue. ]] 07:46, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
40. Keep. The article requires cleanup and caretaking, but the subject matter is not a "conclusion searching for evidence". Whether real or simply a massive "internet blog rumor mill", it is notable either way. func(talk) 07:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
41. Keep.

Comments

• Discussions related to this vote have been moved to Misplaced Pages talk:Votes for deletion/2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities.

• Discussion on the issue itself goes to article's Talk page please.