Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Quinwound (talk | contribs) at 21:39, 24 March 2004 (=Hcheney=). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 1: June-August 2003
Archive 2: August-December 2003
Archive 3: Discussion in December 2003 about time people should wait before making request and a note
Archive 4: Some January 2004 discussion
Archive 5: Discussion on January 8, 2004 about distributing the task of making other admins
Archive 6: (Greenmountainboy's claim about being attacked on this page (January 8-9, 2004))
Archive 7: Complaint against tannin (January 24-25, 2004)
Archive 8: Abuse of de-sysop area (January 30-31, 2004)
Archive 9: Discussion on January 31, 2004 about how to deal with misuse of admin privileges
Archive 10: Recent discussion archived in advance (February 2004)
Archive 11: Policy on Anons and this page (February 9, 2004)
Archive 12: Discussion on 19-25 February, 2004 about who can vote and how bureaucrats should be appointed
BL controversy Feb 27-29, 2004
Debate on consensus February 29-March 2

Polls on this page have been moved here except the poll on making all sysops bureaucrats which is here.

The preceding discussion on self-nomination which led to these polls has been moved to Discussion on self-nomination. (February 29-March 1, 2004)

Policy on Anons and this page

Moved to Archive 11. (See above)

Bureaucrats

Moved to Archive 12 under the section What's so special about bureaucrats?

Note that Ed Poor (hi! it's me!) is the first bureacrat to have been promoted through the community process -- rather than having been appointed. I hope this starts a trend away from unilateralism and toward making decisions by consensus. --Uncle Ed 19:08, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

BL's nomination

The question about BL not being made admin has been moved here.

Summary: Somebody raised the question of why BL has not been promoted despite "winning the poll" to which it was pointed out that consensus is a must. The discussion was seemingly left incomplete with no clear answer as to whether consensus is required or a margin when the issue of what constites consensus was raised.

What constitutes consensus?

Moved to subpage Debate on consensus

those supporting "all sysops"

(plus those supporting "all sysops" in the above category) had been added to the tally totals for the nominations for bureaucrats. I removed the note because there is not a consensus supporting such a system. There isn't even a majority of people who support such a system. The vote right now is 11 supporting, 13 opposing, and 1 neutral. Users are encouraged to vote. Kingturtle 03:59, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Why should those who have already stated they support all sysops have to continue voting on every one that comes up. As far as I'm concerned, I have already voted, as I have said that I support any sysop that applies. It's a complete waste of time to vote 160 times for each sysop! Angela. 04:05, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

The primary reaso is there isn't even close to a concensus supporting the idea; in fact, supporters are in the minority. IMHO, you have to show up to vote. Also, vote counting might get confusing. Also, it sets a precendent that would make voting processes more difficult in the future. To play devil's advocate, could I state in VfD that they should cast my VfD on any high school posted? Who would keep track of all the different desires and requests? Kingturtle 04:34, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC) P.S. The votes are up for a week, which means you just need to poke your head in every 5 days or so. Kingturtle 04:35, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Self-nomination

Moved here

Polls

Moved to Polls

Proposal to give bureaucrat status to all sysops

(moved from Requests page)

All sysops

I nominate all sysops to be bureaucrats to save having to vote on everyone twice. Angela. 02:33, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

No consensus: The poll ended with tally: 12 support, 15 oppose, 2 neutral -- ends 02:33, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC) -- Kaihsu 21:56, 2004 Mar 3 (UTC)

• All sysops who appear on this page? or All sysops of Misplaced Pages as they appear in Misplaced Pages:Administrators ? Optim 03:18, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • I mean any sysop who asks to be one. I don't think there should be a vote each time. They can just put their name here and be made one right away. Angela. 04:04, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

Poll

The above vote seems to me to be an example of why votes, rather than consensus-forming talk, are a bad thing. Let's look at the opposers reasons for example. 1) As Angela says, bureaucrats and admins are merged, so what?, 2) They would only have the technical ability to promote people NOT the mandate to abitrarily promote people - they'd have to conform with RfA votes. All admin powers are like this 3) Agrees that a vote is not the way to go. 4) See answer to 2), 5) See answer to 2), 6) See answer to 2), 7) No reason given, 8) No reason given. 9) This is a good point, see below, 10) & 11) No concrete reasons, I don't understand the points. 12) No reason given. 13) Why does there need to be a (new) process? For what? As Angela points out, who is trusted as an admin, but would not be trusted to be a bureaucrat? If there is no such person, then adminship and bureaucratship should be merged, simply to save on all the bureaucracy around here 14) - 1) You need never use this element of your powers. e.g. I've never used my ability to block anyone 2) lol. 15) Trust them to do what, though? The power is to be used for a well-defined purpose - implementing the consensus of RfA and there is a bureaucrat log so all actions are open and transparent, and easily reversible. If you don't trust people, even after they've hung around long enough to be an admin, then isn't the whole open wiki concept a bit flawed for you?

Basically apart from 9), which deserves thought, the opinions listed in the oppose column can be taken to task. But because they are votes they're opinions that are effectively set in stone (yes you can change your vote - but that doesn't happen in practice) and full consideration of the issue is blocked. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 16:16, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

2) They would only have the technical ability to promote people NOT the mandate to abitrarily promote people - they'd have to conform with RfA votes. All admin powers are like this - I am still unconvinced. Policy is not a good way to stop someone from doing something bad. Refusing to give the technical ability is the best way to keep us safe. Optim 16:24, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I disagree in three ways. Firstly keep us safe from what? Someone creating zombie sysops? What malevent purpose could zombie sysops serve anyway? Secondly, all bureaucrat actions are logged, open and reversible.. so there is little to fear. Thirdly if someone is untrustworthy then why are they sysops? They can do much worse things that temporarily create a zombie sysop... they can technically block users for example... they can delete pages. Finally the whole idea of the wiki is to be open and to allow everyone to do everything until proved unsustainable. Sysops should be bureaucrats by default, just like pages should be unprotected by default. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 18:39, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's just your opinion. For example, Angela is wrong - there already has been at least one sysop whose bureaucrat application has not found sufficient support. If people don't change their votes, it's because they don't change their opinion. This could have been discussed forever, and no one consensus would have been reached. Votes are necessary. --Wik 16:22, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

I'll assume you're referring to User:172. If, for example, he did receive bureaucrat powers under what Angela suggests, then what? The worst thing he could possibly do is make you a sysop (wink wink :-P). But really, even if I became a bureaucrat and made 10 people sysop, so what? They woudl be desysopped and I would probably be desysopped as well (for violating what would presumably be policy to NOT MAKE PEOPLE SYSOPS WITHOUT CONSENSUS, like for example VFD). ugen64 00:27, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

To clarify, I meant that bureaucrat powers would be similar to the power to delete pages from VfD: do it right, cool. Do it wrong, bad. Presumably, the worst that could happen by a bureaucrat would be to make someone a sysop who goes and starts vandalizing, deleting, protecting, etc. All reversible actions, and no different or more harmful than if I (or any other sysop) were to vandalize, delete, and protect a bunch of pages... ugen64 00:29, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

It's eminently possible for a previously approved sysop not to get enough support for bureaucrat status. That's not because of anything fundamentally different in the qualifications required. Much more likely, it's because the request drew a different selection of voters (users who have had disputes with the sysop), or because over time the community's perception of the sysop has changed (in other words, the same user quite possibly would not be supported for sysop status if they were nominated now). Bureaucrat status is a useless distinction. All it does is add an additional layer of administration and turn Misplaced Pages into more of a hierarchical institution. --Michael Snow 17:26, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If there has been prior discussion on this point, I apologize. I missed it. All I saw was that Tim Starling created bureaucrats and admins as equal, and Eloquence reverted him. Then there was a vote. What were the specific circumstances of someone being refused bureaucratship? It would be interesting to find circumstances that would mean it right for someone to be admin and not a bureaucrat. I imagine the vote had the flavour of a "vote of no confidence" in the sysop rather than technical abilities... I heartily agree with Michael Snow. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 18:39, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

172's request was removed from the page for lack of consensus, based on 8 supports, 5 opposes, and 2 neutrals (some additional comments could be interpreted to change the vote totals). See . I think your expectation is correct for the nature of this particular vote. --Michael Snow 19:39, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Toctallies

How do you think about this format? -> User:Someuser (x/y) where x is the count of Support votes and y is for Oppose votes. The (x/y) thingy is called a toctally (Table of Contents Tally). Toctallies are nice because we can see what's happening easily from the Table of Contents (TOC) without scrolling the page. But they need some maintenance/updating (just like the normal tallies) Optim 19:37, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Poll on toctallies/running totals (7/6/2)

Feel free to criticise. Optim 19:37, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I like Toctallies/running totals

• Optim
• Fuzheado - cool idea, funny name :)
• Jwrosenzweig -- didn't think I'd like them, but having seen them in action, I changed my mind
• Graham  :) but I do wonder about their ease of maintenance.
• Pfortuny 16:24, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC) (problem with maintenance serious).
• Perl (If people remember to update the tally)
• ugen64 21:09, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

I dislike Toctallies/running totals

• →Raul654 00:32, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)
• Hephaestos|§ 06:05, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• BCorr ¤ Брайен 18:25, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC) -- They're a shortcut that encourages voting -- even when you shouldn't. As I did with Gaz....
• Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 20:21, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC). Polls are not wiki.
• Maximus Rex 06:23, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC) emphasis on numbers is not good, discourages discussion, using # self-enumerates
• Anthony DiPierro 02:08, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC) too much of a pain to keep up to date, along with other problems listed above.
  1. overemphasize # of votes, which is already emphasized a bit too much (by using # instead of * for list-keeping), over quality/relevance of reasoning and/or consensus.

I don't care about Toctallies/running totals

• Davodd 21:18, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings about Toctallies/running totals

• Seth Ilys 12:14, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC). It's useful for gaguing quickly where opinion is, but it tends to run contrary to the attitude of building consensus.

Discussion on Toctallies/running totals

I guess my plea for less polling and more discussion didn't get much of a hearing in the Optim household :-). I have no opinion on toctallies because I have tocs turned off. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 19:53, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

They are friendlier than the present system, just that. But! they may be misleading if they are not kept up-to-minute. I actually like them but I also dislike them. Where should I vote? Pfortuny 20:11, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

well, you should create a new vote category called "I like and I dislike toctallies" or choosing any other title you like. Optim 21:52, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've made up my mind. It's quite useful, nice and cool! (maybe because I am there? :)Pfortuny 16:24, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

requests for my Adminship

Please review the following link, esp. if you are thinking of nominating me for admin Sam Spade 03:38, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I liked this typo in the linked comment: "nobodies getting paid". We are nobodies... but if we're getting paid now no one told me about it :-). Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 09:08, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'd say were paid according to our status, just like anywhere. We just havn't got much status ;)Sam Spade 09:57, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Running totals

I wish to express my annoyance at the new practice of keeping running totals of votes here. I just had to post through an edit conflict due to it. I might be wrong, but I think most of the people here are capable of counting all by themselves, and those who aren't will probably be helped by the fact that votes are kept in an ordered list. These things will probably never be up to date anyway. - Hephaestos|§ 23:48, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Heph

I was bold and removed the running totals. Kingturtle 00:21, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Gentlemen, you may be very accurate in your assessment, but if you'll look at this page, 5 people voted in the poll thus far, and all of us liked the toctallies. If you'd care to participate in our poll here rather than ignoring it, I think I'd be a lot happier. I like you both and respect you, but I'm feeling just a twitch hot under the collar right now that consensus (of admittedly only a few users) has been totally ignored. Jwrosenzweig 00:26, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

True. I didn't realize it was a poll. I was acting boldly. Shall I re-add the tallies? Kingturtle 00:29, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think you should vote in the poll, and perhaps the poll should be more prominently announced (village pump?). Leave them out for now because it's a minor issue, and Optim's adding them was a bold action itself. I just want it recognized that his adding them (and the maintenance of them by others of us) was not done absent an honest attempt to seek consensus. If the consensus is to dump them, that's fine, but let's find out what the consensus is. :-) Jwrosenzweig 00:36, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes I didn't realize there was a poll, sorry. - Hephaestos|§ 06:05, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sysops in new languages

I made a few requests on Intlwiki-L to gain sysop powers for the Irish Misplaced Pages, but no replies were given. What is the procedure for becoming an admin in a new language, or what has been done before? - Kwekubo 00:21, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• I suggest leaving a note at User talk:Tim Starling -- he's usually very quick to respond for such things. Jwrosenzweig 00:22, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • There is also m:Interwiki requests for adminship. Angela. 22:07, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)
• Yes, leaving a not for tim starling worked for me. Another user and I became bureaucrats for the Maori wikipedia within a few minutes of my request. Perl 22:11, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nominators and nominations

I've just been wondering if -- as Misplaced Pages is growing so very quickly -- we might want to consider having nominations for adminship come from a current admin. I've just noticed that 3 of the 9 people currently up for adminship were nominated by the same person -- someone who's been registered for less than a month. Not that I want to discriminate against newer users, but I'm a bit concerned that someone so new is nominating so many people (a fourth was removed). Don't get me wrong -- I've voted for some of them as they are clearly deserving, but I'm wondering if a policy might not be in order. I don't feel like it would be terribly anti-democratic or restrictive to limit who can nominate someone else, as people could always suggest a person for nomination to an admin. Also I'm not thinking that we need to change anything about self-nominations.

So what do people think? BCorr ¤ Брайен 04:27, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

I don't like the idea that sysops controls who can become a sysop. I strongly oppose this idea. And if they are valid nominations, why does the user that nominated them matter? -- Quinwound 04:31, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

In making my determinations about whether there's a consensus, I have taken into account the longevity of people making a comment. I'm pretty much against a self-selecting population. Jimbo said basically that anyone who knows how to use the special sysop features and is generally well-known/trusted should get to be an admin (it's no big deal, really). Just want to be careful about encouraging vandalism. --Uncle Ed 15:06, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I disagree. I don't think there should be any limitations with that regard. I think nominations by very new users, or anons should be considered on the same level as self-nominations, since the new users/anons may not really be familiar enough with whom they're nominating. Vote accordingly is what I say. If you are bothered by who's doing the nominating, vote as if the person had nominated themselves. There is no reason to limit who can nominate someone. Dori | Talk 21:06, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

I was the user who nominated many people. I didn't know I did anything wrong. All of the users I have nominated (with the exception of sam spade) have been unanimously supported, and many users have noted that i made a good choice. Perl 22:01, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And you've been round longer than a month anyway, so the point is moot :). Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 09:16, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

qualifications for nominators...

User:GrazingshipIV has made a nomination. GrazingshipIV's username is only 2 weeks old - and the user has amassed only ~71 edits on articles (along with ~17 edits on article talk pages and ~41 edits of user pages). This brings up many concerns I have about the nomination process. Without safeguards, what would prevent a sockpuppet from nominating another sockpuppet? What would prevent other sockpuppets from voting for the nominated sockpuppet? Once a crafty user-with-malintent became an admin through sockpuppety, who knows what damage could be done.

I would like to put forth this idea....to safeguard such things from happening, how about if only admins could nominate admins? Thoughts? Kingturtle 05:52, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• Support - originally I thought that was how this worked. - Texture 05:54, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Just treat it as a you would a self-nomination. What's the big deal? I don't think it is a good idea to restrict who can nominate. Dori | Talk 05:55, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

(cutting in) Dori has the right idea here. If the nominating user carries no weight with you, treat as a self-nomination, which we allow anyway. Martin 23:48, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The big deal is that someone with malicious intentions could use sockpuppetry to gain admin status. Kingturtle 05:59, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If we see many new accounts supporting some nominations, it would obviously be removed. No bureaucrat would make someone an admin when there is obvious abuse, and there are plenty of regular users to oppose such nominations anyway. There is no need to restrict the priviledges of non-admins. Dori | Talk 06:01, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

A small army of well-designed sockpuppets would not show any history of abuse. Kingturtle 06:11, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't think someone can maintain an "army" of sockpuppets without being found out. After all, developers can check IPs in case of suspicion. Even if somehow someone managed to slip through an entire army of sockpuppets (and he'd have to be someone with multiple personailities), the damage an admin can make is repairable pretty easily. With the new quickpoll policy, such an admin could be temporarily de-adminned, and the case could be scrutinized by the arbitration committee. Dori | Talk 06:16, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. Fosters a cliquish, "us vs. them" mentality. Davodd 11:12, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. This argument against new members nominating seems rather weak considering the new user is nominating someone other than themselves who is then subject to a vote. The suggestion that "only admins can nominate admins" is rather undemocratic and certainly elitist. The current system provides the best safeguard against unqualified administrators being created-a vote. By having a stranglehold on who is nominated, current administrators would virtually control many of the most important operations of wikipedia by proxy. The sort of oligarchy created by excluding so many from the process would surely hurt wikipedia and the furtherment of its goals.GrazingshipIV 18:24, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. Sysopship should not be a clique. However, what about qualifications for voters? Is there a current policy? Anthony DiPierro 02:10, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • I would, however, support a requirement that nominators reveal their IP address. Anthony DiPierro 02:14, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

In response . I am not a "sockpuppet" as far as I know. If you look at my page I am more interested in what might be called the 'nonpolitical' pages of Misplaced Pages. I saw somone who I thought deserved to be nominated (I don't know the user personally) so I did. As I understand it, anyone can nominate anyone and as you can see by this users current vote, a nomination does not nesasarily mean they will win the vote. I checked the rules and abided by them. I just come on here to further free-knowledge I assure you after this expierence I won't be nominating anybody. GrazingshipIV 06:05, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

No one ever called you a sock puppet, though that might have been the implication, intentional or otherwise. Nevertheless, the point remains- suppose you are, or suppose someone else in the future is? What should we do about it? -Fennec 06:10, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well it would seem the current response fits rather well, voting against on the grounds that the nominator (me in this instance) is too new to wikipedia....problem solved.GrazingshipIV 06:14, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

Who cares? If they are good enough to become an admin, they will become an admin, whether they self-nominate, get nominated, or use sockpuppets. 68.105.188.67 23:22, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I care. Are you saying someone who uses sockpuppets is good enough to become an admin? --Wik 23:54, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, that makes sense. but whether my argument is good or not, it doesn't matter. He's not a sockpuppet. ugen64 02:19, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

And how do you know that? --Wik 02:37, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

IMHO, in-and-of themselves, I don't have a problem with second accounts, so long as they're not used for ballot stuffing. →Raul654 01:08, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

While GrazingshipIV does seem to me to possibly be a sockpuppet, I see no evidence (other than the nomination) that s/he is a sockpuppet of HCheney. In the interest of eliminating questions, however, the prudent thing for HCheney to do would be to recommend that the vote of GrazingshipIV not be counted. Anthony DiPierro 02:44, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hello. I'm wikibooks sysop and a Maori bureaucrat. I would like to make other users aware of the fact that there is some "not-so-nice stuff" going on in the page. Mabye certain users who are causing problems could be temporarily barred from participating in the page (mabye for a month?). I'm not going to name any names because then I would be contributing to the "not-so-nice stuff" --- regardless you people know who you are and I'm sure everyone else does too. I hope this comment won't be seen as combative because it isn't intended to be hostile in any way. I just think some abusive users need to be prohibited from participating in the discussions because they *can* and *do* succede in changing other users opinions/votes simply by trolling. Perl 03:00, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Removing comments claimed offensive

Should we be doing this? It seems very dubious to me. At the very least, a note should be placed that information was redacted. Anthony DiPierro 03:06, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I sincerely apologize for my actions, should they offend anyone... wait, that's Wik's line! :-) I won't revert again, I promise. ugen64 03:12, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

I apologize for my actions should they offend anyone... wait, that's Wik's line! I won't revert again, I promise. Perl 03:14, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Resolution

Stop this nonsense....here is what happened according to all sides

• 1-Anthony voted and deleted the tally maybe because he doesn't like the tally...whatever
• 2-I restored it and said don't delete it.
• 3-According to anthony he did not realize there were 2 neutral votes and put in a false tally (knowingly or unknowingly)
• 4-I then changed that back and told him not do mess with the tally
• 5-The tally was then deleted again
• 6-I reverted it and said don't delete it.
• 7-then anthony and I exchanged comments about who had the correct tally (as he would admit later I did)
• 8-then Ugen64 stepped in due to inflammatory comments anthony made
• 9-then they exchanged comments
• 10-then anthony messed with the conversation to suppliment the vote he had just made on tallies on the poll section
• 11-I reverted the edit
• 12-he changed it back and setup a page called "voting nonsense"
• 13-I reverted back the previous vote on the Hcheney page
• 14-He or someone censored my comment (I cannot confirm it was him) but I do beleive it was
• 15-we are stuck here

Here is the convo-

1. • • My vote was real, and the count was incorrect. (by the way, I'm from new jersey) Anthony DiPierro 01:10, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

   • If I can unite you and Wik, I would probably make a pretty good admin. --Hcheney 01:23, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
     • Wik and I have been united on a number of issues before. In this case, I'm just not convinced (that you would make a good admin). Anthony DiPierro 01:30, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• I know thats why I counted it your number 4 in oppose now stop deleting the vote count. GrazingshipIV 01:16, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
  • If the vote count is incorrect I will delete it. Anthony DiPierro 01:21, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• • • The vote count has been correct each time you have deleted it. All you need to be able to do to affirm that fact is count. So don't delete it.- GrazingshipIV 01:41, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
      • The vote count was in fact incorrect the first time I deleted it. Anthony DiPierro 01:43, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
        • Dude, the neutral count was always 2 you first deleted the count entirely, then changed the count to 1, then deleted it again. Just leave it alone for future reference all the votes will obviously be counted its pointless to delete the count.-GrazingshipIV 01:48, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
          • Dude, try participating on Misplaced Pages for more than 14 days before you tell people what do do. The oppose count was incorrect the first time I deleted it. Anthony DiPierro 02:03, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
            • Ok then, what exactly justified you dropping the neutral vote from two to one smart guy....? GrazingshipIV 02:06, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
              • It was an accident. Anthony DiPierro 02:16, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
          • Anthony, if you want to sound authoritative, don't say "do do". Also, whether or not he's been here for a short time, he's correct. ugen64 02:08, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
            • No s/he's not. There is no consensus that we should have toctallies in the first place. In fact, it's pretty much evenly split against them. That this person even knows about toctallies suggests to me that s/he has another account. Anthony DiPierro 02:16, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
          • And if the vote count was wrong, FIX IT! Don't delete it. That's like asking sysops to delete all unwikified pages, or any pages with incorrect information. ugen64 02:13, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
            • No, I'm not going to fix a stupid tally which I am opposed to in the first place. Anthony DiPierro 02:16, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
          • It's also policy not to delete useful information, whether you agree with it or not. ugen64 02:47, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
            • An incorrect toctally is not useful, in fact, it's the opposite of useful. It's anti-useful. Anthony DiPierro 02:51, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
          • Anti-useful... that's an awesome word! ugen64 02:53, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
            • Thanks. I just invented it. Pretty cool, huh? Anthony DiPierro 02:58, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Don't mess with the order, your time is on the statement anyway. Everyone else is using the tally. Don't go vote on the poll and come back like you have principeled position-you CHANGED the tally-there is a difference.-GrazingshipIV 02:29, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
• This isn't nonsense. ugen64 02:47, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
• Stop vandalizing this page return the conversation back to the appropriate order and place. Your not helping your cause when you sign a document if you haven't figured it out the time is set its obvious you fooled with the prior conversation. Calm down and revert your edits. GrazingshipIV 02:58, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

note the differentiation in times

Listen lets just move the whole exchange between myself ugen64 and anthony here put it in the correct order (as donated by time signatures) and get back to the issue at hand-the vote GrazingshipIV 03:25, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

The correct order is the order of the thread, not time-based. Anthony DiPierro 03:52, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

All your comments after your vote will be HERE, so stop editing you want to add something add it here not on the page.GrazingshipIV 04:06, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The two comments I made which are relevant to my vote will be kept on the page with my vote. If you insist on removing your own comment, I'm not going to stop you. Anthony DiPierro 04:09, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

sorry you don't get to pick and choose what you want along with others we are keeping your intial justification or returning it all in proper order you decide .......

GrazingshipIV 04:14, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

Those are reasonable options. Fair for all. - Texture 04:17, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If he insists on keeping the entire off-topic conversation in there, then I can't realistically oppose it. However, what is the "proper order" is disputed. Anthony DiPierro 04:20, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have every right to keep an explanation of my vote on the page. Anthony DiPierro 04:16, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Its not an explaination of anything you can strike or keep your previous statement and write something additional but you cannot use the previous material which is incomplete. Write something new, but do not use old material that is chopped into pieces all old material belongs here. GrazingshipIV 04:19, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

I'm willing to let you remove the out of order part, however the comment by Hcheney and my response should remain. Anthony DiPierro 04:23, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And suddenly all is quiet. Looks like this vandal got what s/he wanted. Anthony DiPierro 04:47, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You know the deal. Create new information or put it all back up in chronological order-I will not allow you to villify him using bits and pieces of pervious conversations regardless of your personal problems with him. If you want to write something new to justify your vote be my guest, but I have more than an hour and won't allow you to vandalize people. My position is that of the US government, I won't negotiate under these terms and tactics. You've got something to say...say it here.GrazingshipIV 04:48, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

You CAN be blocked for vandalism. RickK | Talk 04:54, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I didn't add "bits and pieces". I added the entire thread between myself and Hcheney, and a comment that was made by myself. Anthony DiPierro 05:08, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Talk moved from Hcheney on VfA

(asterisk-depth reduced by 2 and capped at 4 - +sj+)

1. "Experienced editors" have supported Alex Plank too, when he used sockpuppets in an attempt to cheat himself into adminship. Enough said. --Wik 20:43, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)
   • Ah, it's Wik. If it makes you feel any better, Grazingship already has more than 100 edits to pages besides his user and talk pages. He pretty much wrote all of The Conservative Order by himself, and regarding Cheney, he's meaningfully edited here longer than I have. ugen64 23:38, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)
     • So? Alex did thousands of edits with various sockpuppets. And a user who plays tricks like that shouldn't become sysop, so we should wait until we can rule this possibility out. --Wik 23:53, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)
       • Wik, why do you force others to do work for you? All right, fine, as you could have determined had you visited the contributions of Hcheney and Grazingship, on the 22nd of March, Grazingship made edits at 22:14, 22:15, and 22:19; Hcheney made an edit at 22:18. Is this sufficient evidence for you? Jwrosenzweig 23:58, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC) P.S. Did some more checking -- they both made edits at 20:57 on March 22. Jwrosenzweig 23:59, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
         • That's precisely what I checked too, and the congruence of times is evidence for the sockpuppet thesis, not against. If two users were making edits at widely different times it could prove that they are indeed different people, because one person would be unlikely to edit at all those times. For example, if the combined edits of two users span a period of 24 hours without any interruption longer than 3 hours, you can conclude that it would be difficult for one person alone to do. That's why I suggest we wait another month, and then analyze the edits again for a more conclusive picture. --Wik 00:48, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
         • Okay, I'm going to give up convincing you, Wik, but I think this is ludicrous. Any two users who happen to live in the same or adjacent time zones might easily follow the same pattern of behavior. I cannot understand why you have chosen Hcheney and Grazingship out to be "guilty until proven innocent". After all, if I had proven that they never edited at the same time, wouldn't you have also called that suspicious? We could claim any two users "might possibly be sock puppets" and it would be difficult to defend against that claim given the logic you are using. I wish you were a little more trusting. Jwrosenzweig 00:53, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
         • I'm not calling anyone guilty. I'm just saying we can't make a judgement yet. If they never edited at the same time it wouldn't necessarily be suspicious, it depends on the specific pattern. And no, you can't claim any two users might be sock puppets. For almost all combinations of two different users you should be able to find an editing period that proves that they are distinct, as I explained above. --Wik 01:11, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
         • So many asterisks... anyway, through my statistical experience, it's very likely that two people will edit at similar times by chance. You also spelled judgment wrong. Finally, I don't understand your reasoning. Alexandros made a couple of questionable decisions, and he should have known better. However, Hcheney has shown himself to be cool and understanding, and whether or not Grazingship is a sockpuppet (which is pretty much impossible), that's not the issue here. The issue is whether Hcheney would make a good administrator. ugen64 01:53, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
         • Of course, they will sometimes edit at similar times. And sometimes at different times. But so far the times are all similar, so we should wait another month. Also, judgement is a correct variant of judgment. Finally, it is not all impossible that Grazingship is a sockpuppet, and if he is, then Hcheney cannot be trusted, and therefore would not make a good administrator. --Wik 02:32, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

Hcheney

In October, 2003 I received an e-mail about Misplaced Pages. For the next two months I browsed until in December when I got a username. I have been a regular contributor since and a couple of days ago, a user then unknown to me, GrazingshipIV, nominated me for adminship. I later received an e-mail from the same person that introduced me to Misplaced Pages, identifying himself as GrazingshipIV, saying I would make a great admin, and that I was expected to return the favor in good time. I do not feel I owe favors to GrazingshipIV, or any other user, for their vote or support.

I would like to state that I do not approve of GrazingshipIV's actions, use of the term "junta", and fighting with other users. In the past GrazingshipIV has been an exceptional contributor, and I can only hope that he will be able to overcome his conflicts and remain with Misplaced Pages as a contributor.

I do not intend to continue with Misplaced Pages having the status of a joke user. If the community deems me not to be trustworthy, I will quietly fade away for the good of the project. --Hcheney 17:34, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You are, by the evidence of your past actions and this statement, the epitome of a trustworthy editor in my eyes, and I will defend that statement against any voice that seeks to drive you off. I will say also that the opinions and votes expressed on RfA indicate to me that in fact most of the community either trusts you or just hasn't interacted with you yet, and that the attacks on your character are coming from only one or two voices whom I hope you will disregard in this particular instance as being misinformed/unnaturally suspicious. Jwrosenzweig 17:45, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What is the status of a joke user and why do you think you would have it? --Wik 17:59, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

I completely agree with Jwrosenzweig. If you feel that this nomination has been tainted, you may choose to withdraw yourself from consideration, and wait until you are nominated by someone else. Either choice you make will be fine, and I appreciate your forthrightness in bringing this quid pro quo request to our attention. BCorr¤Брайен 18:00, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for mentioning this. I think the best thing to do would be to withdraw and wait for someone else to nominate you for adminship. Your contributions are clearly valuable here. +sj+ 18:36, 2004 Mar 24 (UTC)

Whatever Grazingship's reasons for the nomination, my support still stands. Tuf-Kat 20:19, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

Whether or not you withdraw the nomination, I believe that your behavior--esp. over the past few days--has proved that you would make an exemplary admin. I'd be entirely willing to renominate you myself whenever you'd prefer. Sincerely yours, Meelar 20:22, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How you are handling this shows that you would be a fab admin. and from the sounds of it you are a trustworthy user. Quinwound 21:39, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)