Template talk:Apostrophe - Misplaced Pages

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italicized text crashing

Recently, Sswonk created {{'s}}. On its surface, that template is very similar to this one - but it has one distinct advantage. That template avoids the situation where the apostrophe crashes with italicized text by using this code to surround the apostrophe in the template:

'

which is equivalent to what would work here:

'

See for example:

''Kroonland''{{'}}s = Kroonland's
''Kroonland''{{'s}} = Kroonland's

In example #1 using this template, the apostraphe crashes into the italicized "d", while in the example #2 using the other template, this issue does not exist. See also the discussion at WT:SHIPS#FYI problems using apostrophe after an italicized name.

Could an admin add the same snippet of code here? The template is protected, so I'm unable to do it myself. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Please follow the directions listed at {{editprotected}}, also WP:VP may be a better place to discuss this. Tiptoety 21:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Submitted to WP:VPM. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

{{Editprotected}} Please replace ' in template with ' to prevent overlap of italicized text and non-italicized apostrophe/single-quote, as per the above and discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Modifying the apostrophe template, Template:', which also includes a report on extensive testing under Windows (I can further confirm that it works just fine in multiple browsers under Mac OS X). There was no need for something this simple to be a VP discussion, either. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. --- RockMFR 01:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Page move

This page was just moved as a result of a request at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Uncontroversial proposals. Here's the text of the original request:

When using the {{tl}} (or template link) template (and other related templates) without surrounding it with <code> and </code> tags to display Template:' as wikicode with a link to the template page causes a very small link to click on. It would be better if the main template was at Template:Apostrophe so that Template:' would just be a shortcut. For example: {{'}} is hardly clickable while {{Apostrophe}} is easily clickable.

This makes no logical sense to me. The link {{tl|'}} will still get used as before, the link still works due to the redirect, so there's no benefit from the move. But, now all uses of the template require a redirect to process. Granted, the server overhead isn't a majopr issue here; but it still seems that it would've been simpler to just have {{Apostrophe}} as a redirect to {{'}}, for use by those who might want to use {{tl|Apostrophe}} in links.

Am I missing something? Where's the actual benefit from this move? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Even though there is nothing (that I'm aware of) that states templates should use certain naming conventions, however, I do think that if a better and more self explanatory name is possible, then that should be used instead. I don't know what else to say. Anyway... I listed the move under "Uncontroversial proposals" at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves as I believed that no one would object to the move. --Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 21:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I have moved this template back to ] . Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
The request was by User:Lightsup55 at 19:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC) in the uncontroversial section of http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requested_moves&oldid=241198032 Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Extra space before the apostrophe

Template:' and template:'s generate a tiny bit of extra space before the apostrophe. Compare test's test's test's test's test's test's test's test's test's. So we're discussing not using the templates on the Main Page, where 's often occurs after bold text. See User:BorgQueen#Apostrophe s and User:Art LaPella#Apostrophe. Art LaPella (talk) 19:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The extra space before the apostrophe is by design, it's not a bug - I'll reply at User_talk:BorgQueen. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:37, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, moving the discussion back to here so that there's a central location ...

The extra space was by design (see the above discussion template talk:'#italicized text crashing) - without it, the apostraphe would "crash" with some italic letters that hung over to the right at the end.

Compare these:

Kroonland's = ''Kroonland'''s (equivalent of using template without the space)
Kroonland's = '''''Kroonland''''''s (equivalent of using template without the space)
Kroonland's = ''Kroonland''' (equivalent of using template with the space added)
Kroonland's = '''''Kroonland'''''' (equivalent of using template with the space added)

At the time the change was made, the use of the templates was still pretty limited - so this was viewed as a relatively simple means to resolve the issue with minimal negative impact to other articles. Now that the template is going into more widespread use, it may be time to re-evaluate this, or to look at other potential solutions. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

FYI: For reference, here are links to the archived earlier discussions on this from other boards:

--- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:15, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I think if we have to say something like {{'|bold=yes}} we might as well go back to what we're used to, which is the more self-explanatory <nowiki>'</nowiki>. Art LaPella (talk) 20:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, there are other options. A different template could be created, maybe {{'2}} or something similar ... or we could use the format {{'|b}} for where the spacing isn't needed ... or we could remove the space and use {{'|tab}} or {{'|s}} where the spacing is needed ... or we could use the manual method like you described ... all are potential options. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:03, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) IMHO, adding those extra parameters is kind of yucky, it makes the template look less attractive and more cluttered. Making a different template seems more parsimonious. Why not steal {{`}} and use that for an apostrophe without an extra space? (It currently is just a redirect to {{void}}, and only 5 pages link to it and it has only been edited twice ever, so I imagine it's not very widely used and we wouldn't cause too much disruption if we were to steal it.) Politizer /_contribs 20:17, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Just got a message from Gnevin saying we're free to use {{`}} if we want. Politizer /_contribs 22:38, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I just stole {{`}}. Check it out:

{{`}}
- Example's
- Example's
{{'}}
- Example's
- Example's

I'm thinking now I'll do the same thing with {{`s}}? rʨanaɢ /_contribs 21:55, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm…

This is one of the silliest templates I've seen in a while. I don't suppose we need a {{,}} template with similarly imperceptible negative margin, to ensure that commas fit snugly under the last letter (at least in the browser of whoever last adjusts the template). — CharlotteWebb 22:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It was designed to address a specific purpose - and should only be used following italicized text. If it's used elsewhere, then it should be removed. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 03:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Change style padding to hair space

Simplify markup.
Reduce transclude size by 95%.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 11:17, 22 August 2014 (UTC).

Please implement the above proposal, which has had no opposition. Code in sandbox.

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC).

@Rich Farmbrough: In the sandbox I've used a zero-width space following the apostrophe instead of the hair-width space. I think this makes it look more like the current template - see the test cases for some comparisons between the sandbox and the main template. What do you think? — Mr. Stradivarius 11:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

That seems like an improvement to me. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC).

Done — Mr. Stradivarius 22:04, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

This template now redundant..?

As, currently, this template appears to consist of nothing more than the apostrophe/single-quotemark character itself (i.e. doesn't, according to the documentation, use its decimal code) and doesn't e.g. use any padding, is it now redundant..?
Follow-up: {{`}} (i.e. Template:) seems to offer this function (return '). Sardanaphalus (talk) 10:33, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Not redundant; it uses a hair-space now. I am not wild about using weird spaces, and adding any space in any form is micro-managing normal HTML rendering. {{`}} and {{'}} should be merged. -- ] {{talk}} 14:01, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Pinging User:Trappist the monk. If this hair space is a zero-width space, then it seems to be responsible for placing all the articles using the template in Category:CS1 errors: invisible characters. DrKay (talk) 18:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

The apostrophe template transcludes this string of characters (invisible characters shown in parentheses):

&zwj;(hair space)'(zero-width space)

the live versions of the cs1|2 templates are seeing the zero-width space. This is, I think fixed in Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox. Compare live:

{{cite book |title=Title{{'}}s got an apostrophe template}}

Title's got an apostrophe template.

with sandbox:

{{cite book/new |title=Title{{'}}s got an apostrophe template}}

Title's got an apostrophe template.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:07, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That looks great, thanks. DrKay (talk) 07:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, it says zero width space character in |title= at position 8 (help) right there, this seems to be an issue in a couple hundered/thousand sources. I would definetly suggest to just let the template use ' instead of a weird constallation of invisible spaces. This would then equal the grave accent template, which does the exact same even if it stated with a grave accent instead of a real apostrophe and would require a redirection to this Template instead.

This way, {{cite book |title=Title{{'}}s got an apostrophe template}} would result in: Title's got an apostrophe template.

—Lordtobi (✉) 07:49, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

If you're talking about Trappist's examples above, the warning is in the live template, while the sandbox version does not show it. Once they're comfortable that the sandbox works correctly, it'll be merged into the live template. — Huntster (t @ c) 19:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Non-breaking space issue

Per the discussion here, it seems that the template needs to have a non-breaking space incorporated so that it wraps properly at the end of a line of text. I don't have the slightest clue about coding templates, so I figured I'd post here. Parsecboy (talk) 12:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Done. I've added ‍, a zero width joiner, so everything sticks together in a wrap. There shouldn't be any issues associated with this, but let me know if anything crops up. — Huntster (t @ c) 03:54, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Huntster: I don't suppose you'd like to apply the same fix at Template:'s? I just ran in to this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 04:57, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

To editors Huntster and Kendall-K1: I just ran into this at Minsc. The s after this template (unless I got the template name wrong) did not stick in a word wrap, so I rephrased three instances of it. Thanks for all your hard work! --Geekdiva (talk) 07:58, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I've stopped using this template. It's a workaround for broken kerning in the browser, and doesn't really belong in our markup. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:32, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

To editors Huntster and Kendall-K1: From {{'s}} discussion, we should replace this template with '. It fixes most issues and works perfectly fine. In addition, {{'s}} should be changed to 's (the same, just with an s), and {{`}} should be changed to redirect here. To avoid extra confusion, also create {{´}} and make it redirect here as well. No action has since been taken on any of these tempaltes but should be considered by an admin (e.g. by Hellknowz or Czar). Lordtobi (✉) 12:42, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I have always used it because ''cats''' toy -> " cats' toy " would break to " cats toy " (something like ). ~~But that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.~~ Last time I used it because external renderer couldn't handle it. I had no idea this was using any kind of spacing or line-breaking fanciness. ~~If MediaWiki can handle this now, then that reason is gone. As for spacing and wrapping stuff, that seems like a browser issue as Kendall-K1 says. I'd probably be for deprecating this template then.~~ — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 13:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@Hellknowz: I might just disagree here, as MediaWiki does not handle things like this: Cats' Toy ('''Cats'''' Toy), you can see that the apostrophe is bolded as well, but shouldn't. With the code figured out on 's discussion as state above, it looks good in both cases, bold and italic: Cats' Toy / Cats' Toy. This is why we should keep the template. So here is what should be done:

Change {{'}} to ' Done
Make {{`}} redirect to {{'}} Done
Make {{‘}} redirect to {{'}} Done
Change {{'s}} to 's Done

If you disagree with any of the above, please state why. Else, please execute the task given. Lordtobi (✉) 13:33, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh yeah, it is bolded, I didn't notice. So it's still broken, just not as much. Anyway, the template is fully protected and I'm not an admin. I only commented since the template was something I had recently used and I thought that's why you pinged me. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 13:45, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh well, I wasn't aware that there were different kinds of template protections as "template-portected" is admin-only I thought you were one. But since about everyone involved agreed, e.g. Huntster might change it, as he edited the template recently what makes him an admin... I guess? Lordtobi (✉) 13:51, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, they are/can. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 14:10, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Done, between myself and Lordtobi. Let me know if there are any issues. — Huntster (t @ c) 14:55, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Huntster, appreciate it. I have since edited the other issuing, non- or semi-protected templates. Lordtobi (✉) 14:58, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I still think the padding is unnecessary, but agree that the template is needed for the bold text case, and obviously needs to nowrap. Thanks for fixing this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:59, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 21 January 2017

This edit request to Template:' has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Surname should be "Menon" instead of "Menen" Spn 123 (talk) 04:39, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Spn 123, I believe you are requesting an edit to an article, rather than an edit to this template. What article are you referring to? (Closing the edit request, since it does not apply here.) — Huntster (t @ c) 04:45, 21 January 2017 (UTC)