Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:10, 23 July 2009

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage

	Israel is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 8, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 16, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed September 4, 2007 Peer review Reviewed September 30, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current status: Featured article

This article and its editors are subject to Misplaced Pages general sanctions.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Israel article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109Auto-archiving period: 14 days

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry WikiProject Countries to-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Check out the article alerts; see if anything catches your fancy. Cleanup : clean-up listing for Countries Stubs : de-stub articles in Category:Stubs by region. Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and assess. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Israel Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Misplaced Pages requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Jewish history Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Judaism Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Western Asia Top‑importance This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Western Asia, which collaborates on articles related to Western Asia. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Western AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Western AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Western AsiaWestern Asia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Arab world This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 10 sections are present.

Old archives
Israel and the Occupied Territories Jerusalem as capital

Template:WP1.0

Human Rights Violations

Something about the states human rights abuses and disregard for international law should feature in the article(Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).

There is an article called Human Rights in Israel that allows for more detail than the main article. As for international law, International law and the Arab–Israeli conflict is a place to start. Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 04:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

From my readings of the article, only the views of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are mentioned. I think the article "Human Rights in Israel" should be linked in the article, either as a sub topic, or under "see also" in order to expand and improve the article...Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Apartheid analogy

In the South Africa Misplaced Pages article, the apartheid history is mentioned already in the preamble. Israel's article should in my opinion feature some discussion on the segregation policies in place in the West Bank, and a link to the "Israel apartheid" article. In the History section, it's stated simply that Palestinian refugees "fled the country" in 1948, which gives the reader no hint that they'd have been purposefully expelled. --Dailycare (talk) 11:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

This text has twice been removed from the article for NPOV (occupied territories section):

This barrier and limitations on the movements of Palestinians in the West Bank, as well as limitations concerning their access to natural resources and the judicial system, have been compared to the former apartheid system of South Africa, see Israel and the apartheid analogy.

According to WP:NPOV "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" should be represented. That a Western-type democracy would be practicing apartheid-like policies is certainly a "significant view", and the sources mentioned on the linked page include Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, Amnesty International, The Economist, the architect of South Africa's apartheid and Israel's own attorney general. I'd therefore submit that both "significant view" and "reliable sources" are met, and the text should pursuant to wikipedia policy be in the article.--Dailycare (talk) 23:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I re-entered this link to the text, as no comments disagreeing with this reasoning were entered. --Dailycare (talk) 21:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

UN Security Council Res. 242 and 338 and Disputed Territories

UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 support the claim of Disputed Territories. The government of Israel declares that they are disputed and not occupied. Since the UN resolutions do not declare Israel is occupying these territories plus the fact that Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to Israel since there was no sovereign power ruling over the land before it was mandated, there is a strong argument that they are not occupied. The only neutral term between Occupied and Not Occupied is Disputed.

Editors in previous discussions that supported changing the title from Occupied to Disputed Territories:

-Avinyc -Tad Lincoln -DrorK (as long as all articles are consistent with the change) -Ynhockey -okedem -Benjil

Editors against changing the title and leave it as Occupied Territories:

-Peter cohen -CasualObserver'48 -RomaC -EoinBach -harlan -Ezzex

Despite some biased editors who wish to bombard this discussion with block quotes to lengthen their POV, it is quite clear there is a balance of debate on this topic. The argument to leave things as status quo because "it's the way it has always been" would not be a wise position to claim.

Arguments are also not considering that Disputed Territories is a NPOV title between the belief that the territories are Conquered vs. Occupied. Avinyc (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

In fact e.g. UN Security Council resolution 478 (passed 14-0 in 1980) states the territories are occupied, and that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies. The International Court of Justice shares the view that the territories are occupied, and that the 4th Geneva Convention applies. There is thus not in fact a "balance" in opinion in the matter since Israel stands very isolated. --Dailycare (talk) 11:00, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I prefer to bombard the discussion with long blocks of very relevant quotes. Like this one from the Foreign relations of the United States, 1964-1968, Volume XVIII Arab-Israeli Dispute, Page 1015, Document 515, published by the US State Department Historian in 2004:

515. Memorandum for the Files/1/

Washington, November 8, 1967, 5:37-6:29 p.m.

SUBJECT Meeting Between President Johnson, King Hussein and Secretary Rusk on Wednesday, November 8 at 5:30 p.m.

Following the meeting between the President and the King, Secretary Rusk gave me some of the highlights of the discussion.

The meeting was cordial and a few minutes were spent in pleasantries, including the presentation of a cigarette lighter to His Majesty by President Johnson.

Discussions centered on the U.S. resolution currently before the Security Council. The President pressed the King to support the U.S. resolution. He pointed out that the resolution is to be a compromise resolution. The Government of Israel is not happy with the text; the Arabs are not happy with the text. It is difficult to draft a resolution that makes both sides happy, but it is imperative that both sides accept the resolution if it is to be implemented.

King Hussein tried his best to get precision on the clause with respect to withdrawal of Israeli forces. The President replied that it was difficult to be precise in one part and not on the others. There were imprecise statements in the resolution in several respects. The King then said that if it was impossible to be precise as to when or where withdrawal should take place, he hoped that it would be possible to be precise with regard to the question of who was to withdraw. The phraseology of the resolution calling for withdrawal from occupied territories could be interpreted to mean that the Egyptians should withdraw from Gaza and the Jordanians should withdraw from the West Bank. This possibility was evident from the speech by Prime Minister Eshkol in which the Prime Minister had referred to both Gaza and the West Bank as "occupied territory".

The President agreed to talk with Ambassador Goldberg in New York and he and Secretary Rusk told the King that we would be back in touch with him by noon the following day with respect to his suggestion for inclusion of the word "Israeli" before the word withdrawal in the resolution.

/1/Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, Country File, Jordan, Vol. IV. Secret. Drafted on November 11. An attached note of November 22 from Saunders to Walt Rostow's secretary, Lois Nivens, instructed her to put a copy in her files, since it was the only record of the President's meeting with King Hussein that would be available in the White House. The meeting took place in the Oval Office. The time and place of the meeting are from the President's Daily Diary. (Ibid.) harlan (talk) 11:30, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

'The occupied territory-section currently mentions that "Israel has applied civilian law to the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, incorporating them into its territory" without mentioning that the annexation has been declared "null and void" and a "violation of international law" by the UN Security Council in resolution 478, which further instructs Israel to rescind the annexation. In order to reach a neutral description, this should in my opinion be mentioned in addition to or instead of merely stating that East Jerusalem is a "difficult question". Resolution 478 is mentioned now only in footnote 1 which pertains to a different part of the article.

--Dailycare (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

In a speech delivered on September 1, 1982 President Reagan called for a settlement freeze and continued to support full Palestinian autonomy in political union with Jordan. He also said that "It is the United States' position that - in return for peace - the withdrawal provision of Resolution 242 applies to all fronts, including the West Bank and Gaza."see AIPAC website The Reagan Planharlan (talk) 22:50, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Mount Hermon picture must be removed!

There is a picture at the bottom of a mountain in Syria - Mount Hermon, that picture must be removed from this article, --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, it is not up to you to define the Middle Eastern borders. DrorK (talk) 12:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It isn't up to you either. The internationally recognised borders are wuite clear. Mount Hermon is on the broder between Syria and Lebanon, not in Israel.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

This is Misplaced Pages, not the UN. Misplaced Pages describes the facts on the grounds, not the wishes of certain countries or regimes. This picture was taken in a place governed by Israel, and accessible freely from within Israel. The fact that it is claimed by another country and the background for this claim is explained in details, but there is no reason to remove the image. Just as you may put images from Northern Ireland in the article about the United Kingdom, you may use this image here. DrorK (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

As you said, Misplaced Pages does not accord to the wishes of certain countries and regimes. The wishes of the Israeli regime should not be given WP:Undue weight to a minority point of view when the internationally recognised borders do not place any of Mount Hermon in Israel.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

This is not a question of wishes. Mount Hermon *is* under Israeli rule ; whether you like it or not, that's nor really relevant. Benjil (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I beg one of the administrators to put this article under higher protection. Apparently there are people who try to use this article as a platform for promoting political views. DrorK (talk) 18:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the gallery section (that includes this image) completely, as I don't really see the encyclopedic value in it. The article has enough images as is, and WP:IG seems to suggest that galleries are in general not advised. If it is decided to retain the gallery, I believe that including the image without any special explanation in the captions is a NPOV violation, as it implies the POV that the mountain is Israeli territory just like any other, and that is clearly disputed. Rami R 20:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Just as well. I've now noticed that it contains pictures of the Dome on the Rock.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Religious sites in Old City are not internationally recognised as being in Israel

In line with WP:NPOV, I have clarified that the religious sites in the Old City of Jerusalem are in East Jerusalem adn under Israeli control to remove the misleading impression that they are internationally recognised as being in Israel.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:43, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

This issue certainly could attract an easy edit war. However, the wording that Peter cohen is trying to add doesn't remove any content, and it improves the paragraph by adding a couple words which do in fact make this a more WP:NPOV way of stating things. "Administered" is a pretty good way of indicating Israeli control, without making a more confusing statement on sovereignty over the area. Hiberniantears (talk) 16:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think "administer" is the right word since the temple mount is administered by the Palestinian Wafk but still under Israeli control. So "control" or "de facto sovereignity" is better. Also I think we should change the wording, "Such as the Israeli controlled/administered Old City" gives a much better flow to the text than "Israel controls/administers the Old City". Fipplet (talk) 20:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm content with that apart form the missing hyphen which I'm about to insert.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh I see that Supreme Deliciousness has changed it back. I'm happy with either version. Hopefully he or she can join the discussion here and we can reach a consensus.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Human Rights Violations

Something about the states human rights abuses and disregard for international law should feature in the article(Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).

There is an article called Human Rights in Israel that allows for more detail than the main article. As for international law, International law and the Arab–Israeli conflict is a place to start. Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 04:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

From my readings of the article, only the views of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are mentioned. I think the article "Human Rights in Israel" should be linked in the article, either as a sub topic, or under "see also" in order to expand and improve the article...Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

editsemiprotected

{{editsemiprotected}} Israek is not the only democracy. There are elections in Lebanon and Iran —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.60.143 (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Democracy is not defined only by elections but by other characteristics like the rule of the law, freedom of the individual, respect of the human rights. Lebanon and Iran do not share these characteristics. Furthermore, elections in Iran are not free (even if the results were true) and in Lebanon, elections depend on ethnic and religious factors contrary to democratic principles. Benjil (talk) 13:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

By your definition of democracy, Benjil, I would not say Israel is a democracy either. But I don't think democracy is as universal as you posit.

Israel's human rights record is on par with Iran's, according to the UN, if not worse. The Arab population of Israel faces widespread and documented discrimination. The Jewish population in Iran does not.

Your statement about Lebanon's elections depending on ethnic and religious factors is interesting, what do you actually mean? If you mean the Shii's vote for Hezbollah, or that the Christians vote for the Christian, then you would be correct. But what is the difference between the Conservative voting for the Conservative party, or the racist voting for the far-right Avigdor Lieberman.

What about Iraq? They have elections don't they? With regards to Human rights, I don't recall the last time Iraq went against int. law, but Israel refuses to get out of occupied land, the West Bank Barrier is illegal under int. Law also.

To conclude, I don't think its the only democracy in the Middle East, this is blatantly a POV statement that is only said by the the Israeli foreign office when their nation allegedly commits crimes. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:55, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

Israel's record on human rights is very high and better than even many western countries. The UN is hardly a credible source on this issue as it is a very biased political body. The Arab population faces no legal discriminations at all, they have the exact same rights as the Jews, in fact Jews feel discriminated - they have to serve 3 years in the army, the Arabs don't. The Jewish community in Iran is in such a good situation that most of Iranian Jews left the country and the tiny community left, being of no threat to the regime, is just not persecuted - that's so nice.

Regarding Lebanon, you apparently do not know that the mandates are distributed according to a religious and ethnic key. I quote wikipedia: "High-ranking offices are reserved for members of specific religious groups. The President, for example, has to be a Maronite Christian, the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim and the Speaker of the Parliament a Shi’a Muslim. Lebanon's national legislature is the unicameral Parliament of Lebanon. Its 128 seats are divided equally between Muslims and Christians, proportionately between the 18 different denominations and proportionately between its 26 regions." This is not truly democratic : in a true democracy, anybody can be President even if he is not a Maronite, and the seats are divided according to the demographic reality.

What about Iraq ? No idea, it does not seem to be a very free country for the moment. We will see in the future.

Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East with maybe Turkey if you count it in the Middle East. That's not POV, that's a fact. You really should buy a plane ticket, come to see Israel with your own eyes, and you will understand that the propaganda you have been fed with is just lies Benjil (talk) 12:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• Besides the point. The UN is only considered bias when it comes to Israel.

Furthermore, the notion of Democracy is not universal. The claim that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East is a slogan, a propaganda tool if you like, to legitimize the states alleged war crimes over the past 60 years. It does not need to be mentioned in the article because it creates more problems regarding NPOV than it sorts out. This is not a place to push an Israeli marketing campaign to audiences across the world.

This is an encyclopedia, and commenting that Israel is more democratic than the "West" is absured, how about the fact that Israel is the only democracy in the world that has no civil marriage.

In conclusion, the sentence "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East" needs to be ommited or changed to read something more neutral. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 13:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

The notion of democracy is universal. Human beings are the same everywhere. The idea that democracy is just a western cultural thing is both racist and a way to legitimize dictatorships. Regarding the rest of your allegations, please understand that wikipedia is not a tool for your personal propaganda. You obviously know nothing about Israel so why are you even here if you have no knowledge of the subject ?Benjil (talk) 13:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

In so far as "democracy" exists, I believe that Israel is in league with western Europe, the USA, Canada, Australia etc. I have no doubt that an Arab who accepts the State of Israel and embraces Israeli custom may live as freely as all Jewish citizens. User:Interestedinfairness is simply pointing out that certain actions - of which Israel has been accused (note that I am not personally making accusations) - are, if proven true, just as bad as the actions of other entities who have been made to suffer for their actions. I refer to times that a US-led alliance may have repelled some national forces back to their UN recognised borders; or perhaps tribunals have been created to deal with certain perpetrators of specific atrocities, whilst others are ignored. "Democracy" has its limitations everywhere. We can mention far-rght parties in some countries, but to take an example that shouldn't upset anyone concerned with Israel: Lithuania banned Communism as an ideology after its independence from the Soviet Union. Its former Communist party had already moved away from its ideology of 50 years earlier - and is a part of the system which stifles communism - but new parties to this day cannot adopt Marxist beliefs. If the same thing thing had happened in Moldova, we'd know - paradoxically - the majority would be suppresed. In that country, the Communists have the presidency and the premiership. They have no true opposition at present. At their last elections, the claims of fraud did not come from the Liberals who came second but from neighbouring Romania! What you need to remember Benjil, is that "democracy" and all its tools pertain to a population, however big or small. Israel's alleged actions have been against persons outside of that population, even though within Israel itself. I know User:Interestedinfairness for our discussions regarding Kosovo. In pre-1999 Kosovo, the actions on the part of the FR Yugoslavia were not "barbaric acts against its own citizens" but "barbaric acts against a rebelling nation", in other words, a clampdown, a purge, or perhaps an operation against treason. You don't have to convince me personally of Israel's rights or wrongs, or that of the Arabs, I don't dispute anything! I just hope that you two users can reach an agreement not to bite at each other. Evlekis (talk) 15:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course no democracy is perfect and Israel is far from perfect. The issue was mainly about internal issues and not true or false accusations against Israel about its actions against non-Israeli citizens, as you said. I do not know user Interestedinfairness, but I have years of discussions about Israel and the Israeli-Arab conflict behind me, and I am pretty used to the usual anti-Israel lies/propaganda. I know where it comes from, I know what they try to do, and I am just tired to waste my time debunking the same old ignorant rants over and over again.Benjil (talk) 15:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Ignorant rants. WOW chill out, this is Misplaced Pages, not the UN and you don't have to convince me of Israelis democratic credentials. Not every one who apposes the actions of a state is anti-Israeli; in fact, My people have a Jewish population and were known for saving Jews during WW2. Its ignorant shits like you who make people dislike Israelis. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

If you are not anti-Israel, I am very happy, but you should refrain from speaking about "war crimes" and comparing human rights in Israel to Iran, because I dare not imagine what you would say if you were anti-Israel. And be careful, you could be mistaken for a racist when you say that just one guys makes you "dislike" all the Israelis. Imagine that I would say that "a shit like you" makes people dislike... whatever people you are from, apparently Albanian - and we know how well loved are the Albanians in Europe, so you should really think a little more before you open your mouth. Benjil (talk) 21:41, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Your not on my level of intellect to enjoy my company on Misplaced Pages. Get a life, and more importantly a good text book. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

Thank you to make my day start with a big laugh. Benjil (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Can the two of you not poke at each other as over the past day or so. To Interestedinfairness, there really is no need to refer to fellow users as you did late yesterday evening, nor to attack anyone's intellect. Try to exercise tact and assume good faith. Benjil has in a previous statement accepted that Israel is "far from perfect" so the user is clearly not promoting hatred or nationalism. The conversation as has been so far does not need to continue because it really is not constructive, and it doesn't involve any changes to the Israel article. Views will always be views and most Israelis accept that their nation is disliked because of the accusations made against them, and that in itself can be difficult to live with; particularly when all subjects have alternative views/versions of events and Israelis too have the right to defend their nation from remarks made by outsiders. To that end, Albanians are not hated in Europe Benjil. In the UK where I live, the average person is so ignorant that he wouldn't know whether Kosovo an island off the shore of Gaza! To most here, "foreigners are foreigners" but among those who know better: Albanians are known to be honest and hard-working. So no more attacks on nationals, nor countries please! Evlekis (talk) 12:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Erm, excuse me but the "average" British person is not ignorant and what do you mean "foreigners are foreigners", what a ridiculous statmeent, clearly you don't live in the U.K. or if you do, you live in some shit part up North. By the way, most people don't hate Israelis, most people hate the Israeli government.

Sorry I made a mistake, I mean the more intelligent British person is ignorant, the "average" is totally brain-dead! Come on Fairness, you know how much savy the British have when it comes to foreign people and lands? Show most of them a map of Europe and most will have a job to find Ireland!! And I live in the south, not the north; and I was referring to the fact that Israelis/Jews often find themselves victims of hatred because of their government. Governments often influence people's perceptions of nations. Evlekis (talk) 13:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Back to the article, I still think the Human rights issues should be mentioned in the article, I mean what's the point of trying to hide them??? (Interestedinfairness (talk) 12:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)).

An article already exists: Human rights in Israel. Evlekis (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but its not linked in the article and its a usually a very popular topic in the media and so forth. Would merit a place in the article methinks. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)).

It is already linked in the article, in the Government section. --Leivick (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Israel is not the only democracy and that is Zionist Propaganda. I think that that sentence should be removed. Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon have elections if that is your definition of Democracy. If democracies have to be nice to all people than Israel is discrimatry towards Palestinians. Palestinians have no rights there. And by the way, the UN is biased towards Israel because it is not stopping the conclift and letting Israel do it's barabric trotures. 99.247.60.143 (talk) 22:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Israel is the only certified-democracy in the Middle East. I'm not here to argue but I just wanted to make sure the above mantra doesn't somehow end up in the article. Wikifan12345 (talk) 14:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I never really understand arguments like this. What's best, cake or ice cream ? It's ice cream...cake's nice though. These are the polity scores for 2007. +10 (strongly democratic) to -10 (strongly autocratic).

Cyprus 10
Israel 10
Lebanon 7
Turkey 7
Yemen -2
Jordan -3
Egypt -3
Iran -6
Syria -7
Kuwait -7
Bahrain -7
Oman -8
United Arab Emirates -8
Saudi Arabia -10
Qatar -10
Iraq -66=foreign “interruption”

Israel is often called the only democracy in the ME. So, it's a verifiably true statement about what is said about Israel. Not sure it's very informative by itself. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Both Lebanon and Turkey are democratic, so the statements is not true.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:32, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It says "Often called the only democracy in the Middle East" not "is the only democracy in the Middle East". It is true that it is "Often called the only democracy in the Middle East". It's not true that it "is the only democracy in the Middle East". The Democracy Index puts Israel in the flawed democracy category. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:59, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

By who is it often called the "only democracy in the ME"? Americans? fundamentalist christian Americans? I certainly have not heard anyone else say this, and why should this phrase even bee mentioned in an encyclopedia? Its not a fact in any way, but a false statement by Israel supporters. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

"why should this phrase even bee mentioned in an encyclopedia?"....I don't think it should. It doesn't contain any encyclopedic information. It tells you that people that think it is the only democracy in the ME often call it the only democracy in the ME. Surprise. It's better to just have the bit that come after that i.e. "Israel is a representative democracy with a parliamentary system and universal suffrage". Sean.hoyland - talk 10:49, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

The source is not consistent with general knowledge. According to Freedom House, Israel is #31, second in Asia - only behind Japan. Lebanon is 89. Qualities of a solid democracy - academic freedom, press freedom, freedom of expression (political especially), religious freedom, economic freedom, separation of powers, civil liberties, etc. These are things that Israel embraces and has institutionalized, which is why (most) people in America consider Israel to be the only democracy in the Middle East. That is their standard of democracy. Your obsession with the word "democracy" is nothing less than semantics. Having a "democratic" government means absolutely nothing if it is not consistent with democratic values. A country like Lebanon that allocates parliamentary seats based on religion/ethnicity to ensure power remains in the right hands does not scream democracy. Remember, democracy is just a word. See Democracy in the Middle East for a better overview]]. I'm not trying to pimp Israel here but your logic is not sound. Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan, "which is why (most) people in America consider Israel", exactly,, some Americans, considers this, Its wrong to say that "most people considers" when most people of the world do not, and some americans do.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:02, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

"Most people" in the world don't live in a democratic country, and don't know what a democracy is. So we will do without their advice. Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle-East as a fact, not an opinion. Benjil (talk) 11:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Without attribution and a cite to specifically backup the statement it needs to go doesn't it or at least get a citation required tag ? Sean.hoyland - talk 11:49, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, semantics. If you guys are aiming to couch in some silly sentence that affirms Israel's obvious accomplishments as far as democracy is concerned, something like "Israel is the most performing democracy in the Middle East" seems appropriate though that should probably be clarified. Benjil is saying Israel is the only democracy in the ME in terms of the criteria for what constitutes a democracy. He is 100% correct. Being a thriving democracy in the ME isn't really much of an accomplishment when your neighbors condone female genital mutilation execute of homosexuals, subjugate of women and ethnic minorities, and initiate endless wars at the expense of social and economic progress. I can't see why anyone in their right mind would even try to dispute that. No doubt some Middle Eastern countries, such as Lebanon and Jordan have made great progress relative to their political and social circumstances, but Israel is the only "democracy" in the Middle East when actually contemplating the essential meanings of democracy. Please, this is elementary. I'll stop now to avoid SOAP but this needs to be understood. Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I favour either just removing the "Often called the only democracy in the Middle East" or replacing it with something actually connected to the various deterministic metrics that measure these things which do unambiguously show that Israel is indeed a high performing democracy in the region. You can't get a higher polity score than 10. My preference though is to just remove the "often called" bit. If you look at Ghana which I suppose is a comparable case within it's region relatively speaking it just describes the system. It doesn't make regional comparisons. I don't know. I just want whatever is there to mean something specific rather than being ambiguous and consequently easily challenged. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Something more accurate might be: "the only country in the Middle East rated "Free" by Freedom House" (usually, Cyprus is not considered in the ME; same for Turkey, see second map in Middle East).

Regarding a place like Lebanon - in Lebanon, a person's religion determines what position he can fill (PM, president, etc.). Representation in Parliament is allocated by religion, not population, giving a certain number of seats to each religious group (64 for Christians, 64 for Muslims, with subdivisions within, see Politics of Lebanon#Legislative branch). Sort-of a democracy, but not really. More like a game with "fixed" rules. Also note that in Lebanon, one of the so-called political parties operates a powerful armed militia (probably stronger than the nation's military), and uses it to enforce its will in internal confrontations. Not only are the rules flawed, the reality is even worse. okedem (talk) 13:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Largest City

An editor made the claim that Tel Aviv-Yafo is the largest city in Israel. This is true if we speak about the metropolis but not if we speak about the cities within their limits. Jerusalem has over 750,000 inhabitants and Tel Aviv only 390,000. So Jerusalem is the largest city in Israel. Benjil (talk) 09:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if this is this going to trigger an argument about East Jerusalem not being in Israel. I'll just watch. :) Sean.hoyland - talk 09:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

East-Jerusalem is still in Jerusalem, and anyway, West-Jerusalem has more people than Tel Aviv. Benjil (talk) 09:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok I forgot that "East-Jerusalem" means three different things: the part of Jerusalem occupied by Jordan in 1949-1967 ; in Israel today: the Arab neighborhoods ; elsewhere: all the territories of Jerusalem on the other side of the green line. So it depends of the definition. Benjil (talk) 10:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Further, if we look at Israel's borders recognized by the UN (the partition plan) then neither West nor East Jerusalem is "in Israel". The green line is not an international border. --Dailycare (talk) 10:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The UN recognizes Israel's borders from the pre-67 war, not 48. Israel endorsed the UN partition which would have put Jerusalem under international administration. Guess who rejected it? Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I will attempt to resolve this shortly by adding a 'Largest Metropolis' section underneath the aforementioned. I hope this works and that everybody is satisfied with this. :-) --Billsta1 (talk) 09:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan12345, could you provide a document where the UN would recognize any borders of Israel beyond the 1948 partition plan lines? As far as I know, the pre-1967 lines are armistice lines, not international borders. --Dailycare (talk) 15:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Uh? Egypt and Jordan occupied the WB and Gaza Strip. Jordan annexed the WB and Gaza was ultimately a proxy nation that had little autonomy. The UN borders were designated before the civil war began - it is not binding (or legally sound) to apply the same UN ruling following a civil war initiated by the Arab collective. Similar to the partition of India when 1,000,000 died and the borders changed somewhat because there was simply so much action. The West Bank should be returned to Jordan and Gaza should be given back to Egypt as that is consistent with how the country was before the 1967 war. Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 outlines the way to peace in the region based on a return to the pre-war (Six Day War) borders, meaning the UNSC views those borders as legitimate. okedem (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The 1967 lines are not, as far as I know, in any UN document referred to as borders. 242 states Israel must withdraw from territories occupied, but it leaves out the "the" specifically since the 1967 lines are not borders, borders must be agreed separately. In other words, 242 doesn't say that withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967 would be sufficient. It may be, if that's agreed between the parties, but the UNSC doesn't say that the 1967 lines are borders. It may be that territories between the '48 and '67 lines aren't even ones Israel wants, since once the refugees are allowed to return these areas may have heavy Arab majorities. --Dailycare (talk) 20:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

No, you're misreading here. 242 states, specifically, withdrawal from territories "occupied in the recent conflict", meaning, territories captured previous to that conflict aren't even on the table. It omits the word "the" to not demand a complete withdrawal from these new territories, but leave room for agreed changes in the borders (as the UNSC recognized that the 1967 are extremely difficult to defend for Israel) - still, just discussing territories captured in 1967. So - the UNSC recognizes the 1949 borders are legitimate, plus some possible additional territories from 1967 that Israel gets to keep in agreements with the Arabs. But the 1949 territories aren't even debatable, in the view of this resolution. okedem (talk) 21:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

242 should be read in the context of the then very recent six-day war. There is no language there removing "from the table" any territories Israel occupied in 1948, in fact such would go against the preambular statement in 242 which emphasizes the inadmissibility of acquisition of territory by war. 242 says a solution should "include" withdrawal from territories recently occupied, not that it would be necessarily limited to that. I do agree with you in that a correct reading renders possible mutual agreements relating to borders, which should be "secure and recognized" - however 242 doesn't "recognize" the green line as a border --Dailycare (talk) 21:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The wordings have been debated ad nauseam. Israel did not occupy territories until 67, which was legitimate under the realities of war. Israel was 100 miles away from Cairo, and had the capacity to seize the country if the USA and allied states wanted to chip in - but the US said go back. It did, and later gave up the Sinai for a cold peace which mostly benefited Egypt. No one cared when the Arab powers occupied the Palestinians, but when the Jews came and the economy sky rocketed...oh man, now it's time to carve a Palestinian state! The UN is not the supreme leader of borders and cannot dictate the decisions of other countries. Many legal arguments exist for both sides, though it certainly is troubling that the international courts consider UN resolutions to be legally binding, truly bizarre. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:01, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

If I read this correctly, we seem to be in agreement then: the UN doesn't recognize the green line as an international border. --Dailycare (talk) 10:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The UN hasn't officially recognized any borders since 1948 outside of the Lebanon/Israel border, though Hezbollah now claims they are entitled to parts of Israel (beyond the agreed upon borders)...dubious at best. Same deal with SA and Yemen, India and Pakistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh, Western Sahara and Morocco, etc...etc... Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Stock Partisan Verbiage

From the first "conflicts" section: "Arab nationalists led by Nasser refused to recognize Israel or its right to exist, calling for its destruction." The notion of any nation having a "right to exist" is an Israeli and Western invention and has no precedent in diplomacy. You will find the phrase in English-language AP reports and Israeli negotiating platforms (a major reason negotiations lead nowhere) but it is not a stock phrase in other languages. You wouldn't expect an analogous phrase in Arabic or Farsi newspapers, for example. The more responsible Western newspaper editors use the phrase "diplomatic recognition" and nothing more; spin doctors arbitrarily substitute "right to exist" even though no country in history has EVER been diplomatically declared to have such a right. The phrase's inclusion biases the article, especially considering the editing restrictions which lend it a "set in stone" kind of smugness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.170.61.224 (talk) 08:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

There aren't any editing restrictions other than semi-protection just like many other articles prone to vandalism etc. If you would like to propose a change which is backed up by reliable sources so that it complies with WP:V then go for it. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The majority of the Middle East has at one point or another said "Israel has no right to exist" and then applied that reasoning to a series of failed conflicts. Your reliance on "language" recognition screams OR and semantics. Per Sean, find an RS and we can talk. Wikifan12345 (talk) 08:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Israel was established following the international recognition of the Jewish people's need for a state, and their right to establish such a state in Palestine. This right was recognized by the British in the Balfour declaration of 1917; in the San Remo conference of 1920, in which the various powers gave Britain the mandate over Palestine, with the express goal of establishing a Jewish state; and by the UN, in the 1947 partition plan. So "right to exist" makes sense in this regard, as a state which didn't exist before (in modern times), and was established by support of the international community. okedem (talk) 09:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Racist Country

It should be added to this page the following statement: Israel is a country where racism is not only accepted, it is the law. Here are my supporting documents: Palestinians and the Limits of Racialized Discourse Author(s): Joseph Massad Source: Social Text, No. 34 (1993), pp. 94-114 Published by: Duke University Press Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/466356 Accessed: 19/07/2009 18:30

United Nations Resolution 3379 http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/000/92/IMG/NR000092.pdf?OpenElement

"a Christian and a Jew, or a Muslim and a Jew, cannot legally marry in Israel" http://en.wikipedia.org/Human_rights_in_Israel

Since racism is so prevalent and probably going to be the reason why Israel is attacked even more often and it is a reason often cited by the people who attack Israel, don't you think it would be fair to point out that Israel is a country whose laws are based on racism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willdw79 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Israel is not a racist country. I think you want this article. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

There's already a link to the main human rights in Israel article via the "human rights and liberties in Israel" part in the gov and politics section. That covers issues like marriage etc. I don't know whether it incorporates the US State depts report from February this year that talked about institutional/legal/societal discrimination against Arabs, non-orthodox Jews and other religious groups. Even Dershowitz has said "As a non-orthodox Jew, I feel very much discriminated against". Anyway, this article isn't the place for such things. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:15, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

LOL what a BS man.. you right on one point "a Christian and a Jew, or a Muslim and a Jew, cannot legally marry in Israel" but it got nothing to do with racism..its becuse of relgion reasons.. and any way they can go and marry in another country and israel will recognize marriage.. and if one of them convert to the other one relgion so they can marry.. and its not only about jews.. a Christian and a Muslim canot legally marry in the country ass well.. ther reason is that becuse of orthodox jews pressure all of the marriage system in the country is religious.. and only a religious authority (a priest a rabbi or Imam) can marry two people.. and they of course refuse to marry any one that is not from there relgion.. BTW sooner or later they will pass a law with civil marriage.. its just a matter of time.. and its the only part of the country so connected to relgion

oh.. and not only there is no racisem in israel's laws but israel is probably one of the countries with the most progressive Anti - racism laws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nadave (talk • contribs) 13:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Apartheid

I reverted the tid-bit from the Apartheid analogy article. It was undue and while clearly a minority VP, does not need to be expanded to such an extent. We would have to include counter-arguments which would take up way too much space. The link to the article is more than enough. That sort of information belongs Human rights in Israel. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

If you feel the link is enough, then please re-include the link.. --Dailycare (talk) 00:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Is the link to Human Rights in Israel already there? Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I meant the Apartheid analogy link which deserves mention on the page for the reasons mentioned above, and since it's not a "minority VP" but broadly accepted. I think this viewpoint is only "minority" in US mass media. --Dailycare (talk) 01:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The Apartheid analogy deserves no space in the article. IT's purely an analogy - an article that has gone through 6 AFDs and is an unfortunate by-product of the POV wars. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. It's nothing but a propaganda tool, extremely removed from reality. okedem (talk) 05:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

hmmm seems to be getting quite soapy around here. Dailycare, that article is available from the human rights article. That's where it belongs. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

That's what I said. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:01, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes but your user page has an Israeli flag and an IAF plane whereas mine doesn't. Also, could you remove the picture of Natasha Mozgovaya please because it's causing confusion in the pro-pal ranks. Much appreciated. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

<outdent> Haha you can't be serious? Mozgovaya is probably one of my favorite journalists as far as news coverage of Russia is concerned. I am not that familiar with her politics on Israel though I imagine she is quite liberal. It's not like she bleeds for Arafat or apologizes on behalf of Hamas and Hezbollah like a lot of people. I don't know why pro-Pal (which I really don't like saying) editors would somehow be "confused" over this. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and she's really hot. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:01, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't serious and I made up the stuff about pro-pal editors being distracted by pretty Russian-Israelis. It could happen though. It's difficult to stay focused when someone looks like an angel. Yeah, it's a bloke thing. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

At least that's something we can agree on. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 08:01, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Segregation is certainly not "removed from reality" or "only an analogy" but the complete opposite: for the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank, it's everyday reality. I can live for now with having the page linked to via the human-rights page, however if the comparison is made by further instances it should still go on the Israel page, whether Israelis like it or not. For encyclopedic reasons it makes sense that the main page contains information of this kind, since many people probably read the page to help decide, for example, where to go on holiday. --Dailycare (talk) 10:51, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You might find some elements in the treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank, but the "apartheid analogy" isn't confined to that. One of the clearest signs of this being nothing but a propaganda tool is that various users of this analogy can't seem to decide if they want to confine it to the territories, or include Arab Israelis, or just Arab Israelis, or some of the Palestinians, etc.

As with other matters, these analogies, like quotes from various "important people", are mostly irrelevant. We should present the facts - if there are, from instance, roads in the West Bank which only Israelis are permitted to use, we should present this fact, with Israel's explanation for that (security reasons, usually), and let the readers decide for themselves. An injustice doesn't need to be compared to "apartheid" to be understood, and labeling of this sort is usually a cover for lacking actual points of discussion - the clueless political activist doesn't know the facts, so can't present them. In lieu of this, he just says "apartheid", and hope this elicits an emotional response. We are not political activists, and are not here to elicit emotional responses. We are here to present the facts as fully and accurately as possible, and let our reader form opinions of the situation. Various analogies, even if common, should usually only be covered from the point of view of their use (who uses them, why, etc), and not given too much importance. The reader should learn of what actually happens in the territories, not about what other people label it. okedem (talk) 11:51, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. The Palestinian Authority has received immense support from the US, EU, and even Israel (dubiously). US tripled their aid 3 years ago and Israel continues to give 70+mill in taxes to the government which is incapable of providing even the most basic necessities. Palestinians are dependent on hospitals and social services in Israel, and because of the roadblocks and check points it can take a long awhile to get treatment. Certainly Israeli citizens (for the most part) are given priority, but that is the case in every country. If you want Apartheid, talk to Egypt. They have 1 million Sudanese "refugees" who have poured into the country as a result of a conflict that has continued because of Eygpt and SA control of the Human Rights Council. Egypt has passed laws that prevent Sudanese from working legally, effectively forcing them to do indentured servitude for food or leave. Guess where they are going? Israel. The Apartheid, fascist, racist Zionist entity. Any labor jobs in Cairo that are available tend to be reserved for the Palestinians. If you want to see a real refugee camp, go to Egypt where Sudanese are rotting away and there isn't even enough money to classify them as refugees because all the money is going elsewhere. Or go to Darfur where Arab Islamists rape women and children in the camps while no one cares. Same deal in Congo, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, and everywhere else. I know this is slightly SOAPing but continuing to couch in racist and intellectual dishonest rhetoric that is dependent on minority viewpoints is nothing less than offense. These sorts of debate should be reserved for ultra-leftest college campuses, not wikipedia. Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't quite follow this logic, apartheid isn't a difficult or vague word, and I don't see any reason why Israel-related text should have a dictionary of its own, as you may be suggesting. The reason people use the word apartheid is specifically because the resemblance is so striking. The reason I suspect in reality that some people have for opposing using the word in the context of the West Bank is that South Africa was embargoed responsive to the apartheid regime. Certain people emotionally attached to Israel don't want this to happen to Israel, however an encyclopedia shouldn't exist to serve the emotional needs of such people (by which I of course don't mean that these emotions would be wrong, just that this may not be the best place to try to express them). In this instance of course, we're not discussing adding to the text "Israel implements a system of apartheid in the West Bank", but that the measures Israel implements have been compared to apartheid. BTW Wikifan, you've veered slightly off topic... use Talk:Zimbabwe for issues related to that country. --Dailycare (talk) 15:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The comparisons some people choose to make, for their own purposes, are of little relevance. You can find any negative comparison you want, from both sides. We're not here to discuss, and take part in, the propaganda war. Let the facts (what actually happens) speak for themselves. Pushing the word "apartheid" is intended to elicit an immediate emotional response, substituting consideration of reality. Present the facts, let the readers form an opinion. okedem (talk) 15:46, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Continuing to say "Apartheid" over and over again when people clearly do not know the definition is not a fair way to conduct a conversation. Most Europeans are far more emotionally attached to Palestine than most Jews, to the extent where they can't think beyond Carter or Rashid rhetoric. You clearly do not know the measures Israel has implemented in the West Bank. While the whole world economy has collapsed, the West Bank has gone up 7%. In spite of the settlements and moaning leadership, the security measures have effectively reduced attacks and there is practically no more armed gunman roaming the streets and dragging 10 year old kids to train them for holy wars. The irony is that Zionist Jews played a pivotal role in toppling the Apartheid in South Africa, some of Nelson Mandela's most memorable speeches were written by Zionists. It certainly wasn't the Arab states, they were more oppressive than the Apartheid. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Let's calm down a bit.. as I mentioned above, we should aim to use the same vocabulary for Israel-related texts as for others. I also don't agree that most Europeans (being European myself) would be more attached to "Palestine" than to "Jews". The two aren't mutually exclusive, since there are plenty of countries where there are more than one ethnic group. We can further use "city" in Israel-related articles instead of "place where many people live" since people know what "city" means, and the same applies to other words. Which is not even what we're even discussing here, but more along the lines of "XXX is an area in Israel, which has been compared to a city". --Dailycare (talk) 02:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

If you are going to promote fiction please don't derail when you can't formulate an honest response. Leave Israel is an Apartheid regime at the door, thanks. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Okedem I am concerned with your statement above, "We should present the facts - if there are, from instance, roads in the West Bank which only Israelis are permitted to use, we should present this fact, with Israel's explanation for that (security reasons, usually), and let the readers decide for themselves. An injustice doesn't need to be compared to "apartheid" to be understood..." In this case there are three voices -- one is the facts, which should speak for themselves; another is Israel's "explanation" as you call it. But where is the third voice? The critical voice, possibly the very voice that is provoking Israel's "explanation"? It is regrettable that some are applying the term "apartheid" to Israel, but we Misplaced Pages editors can't ignore this voice simply because we don't like what it is saying. RomaC (talk) 04:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is ignoring this "voice." Scholars have dedicated thousands of hours confronting this "voice." Facts should speak for themselves, but fiction or exaggerated truth (which dominates the Arab world) passed off as undisputed fact poses a serious threat to the deliver of accurate information. Also, there is no such thing as Israel's "explanation." Israel is not a single voice, it isn't a dictatorship or run by a oligarchy of like-minded individuals contrary to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, Palestinian Authority, etc..etc...Israel possesses a series of accomplished scholars, political scientists, and skilled debaters who occupy positions in countries around the world. Couching in valid responses in coordination with Israel's "agenda" is intellectually dishonest and childish. Not to mention there are a variety of opinions that conflict, even between Netanyahu (restrict debates with Palestinian leadership, encourage a pre-preemptive strike on iran) and Lieberman (land for peace with conditions, political/economic response to Iran rather than physical attack). This is just an example. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

No-one has suggested that "Israel is an apartheid state" should be entered in the article, but only a mention that the comparison has been made - therefore the analogy wouldn't according to the proposed wording be "passed off as undisputed fact". As a sort-of hypothetical question to Wikifan, if Israel was practicing apartheid in the West Bank, do you think this should be mentioned in the article? If it wasn't and only individual elements were presented along with "Israel's explanation", then the overall goal of the apartheid plan wouldn't be conveyed from the text at all. --Dailycare (talk) 14:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

RomaC - I did not intentionally omit the "other voice" in this, so don't read too much into it. If there's something substantial that voice says - for instance, something like "Palestinian leaders claim that Israel is using the security barrier to annex land for settlements", that's fine (this as opposed to - "Israel is building the barrier because it's a racist apartheid Nazi state", which is meaningless drivel). The only worthwhile mention of the "Apartheid" claim would belong in a discussion of media and public relations, analyzing the use both sides make of the media and propaganda tools.

Wikifan - "Israel's explanation" naturally refers to the official Israel, i.e. the official government position. While different leaders change viewpoints and positions quite often, some things change very little - for all these years the Israeli government's position has always been that the barrier is not a border, and not final, but simply a security measure, with no political meaning. It has testified to this position is court cases about the barrier's route, where, in some cases, the court forced it to change the route to minimize damage to Palestinians, arguing that an alternative route would serve the security needs just the same, with less harm to civilian life. okedem (talk) 15:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Gaza conflict photos

I have two problems with them:

• First, there are two of them. Are you telling me that in the history of Israel, rockets being fired from Gaza are so important that it warrants not one, but two, depictions?
• Second, the type of media. Currently, there's a video, and then there's a chart.
  • The video is problematic because (a) they don't always load well, (b) from the article, you don't really see anything, and (c) it's just completely unnecessary (we can illustrate anything with a video, but we don't because the video can't, for example, demonstrate a tree better than a photo can). Now, I'd eat my words on (c) if the video shows a rocket actually hitting something in southern Israel. However, because (a) applies for me (as in, I can't get the video to play), I have no idea. From the only frame I can see, it looks like someone just surveying damage. Add on top that (d) the caption is so biased, it's sad ("daily life"; okay, thanks for sharing), and there's got to be something fixed.
  • The chart is problematic because, well, it's a chart. Is this a presentation? Add to that the fact that (a) it's not apparently clear what the chart is relevant to (the history section stops at January 2009, and the chart is from February 2009...) and (b) the chart doesn't demonstrate an apparent trend (rocket firings went up? down? No, the chart says that rockets "happened" and that's about it). It's, again, unnecessary because it adds nothing to the text; rockets were fired in February 2009; okay, we get it already. So what? And, frankly, it's an Excel chart, which just looks bad.

-- tariqabjotu 11:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok. But what policies do these pictures explicitly violate? NPOV? Undue? Many articles have pictures and I don't see how a video and chart could be this offensive. Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:31, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

What? Do you only understand wiki-acronyms? -- tariqabjotu 11:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I see a personal dispute with pictures/videos that isn't exactly consistent with core policy. Just because a chart "looks" bad does not mean it should be censored. IF a video takes too much time to load = it's probably your internet. It loads perfect for me. Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The chart would be ok in an article about the Gaza conflict, but it is too low-level for this general article on Israel. The video I don't think is useful for anything, and it is mislabeled (this is certainly not daily life). Zero 12:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

It was daily life for hundreds of thousands of Israelis for over 8 years, and continues to play an important role in how citizens respond to threats. Drills are conducted every other day, and massive anti-missile stations have been positioned on the edges of Sderot to minimize casualties. You are seriously understating the importance of these pictures. In the last few years more people have been killed than ever before, and these attacks have been decisive in determining Israeli responses however severe they tend to be. Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Running and screaming through the streets? Daily life? For Israelis? Okay... Well, even if I were to believe that, they are not instrumental in illustrating a history that goes back thousands of years. Obviously, as the state is only 60 years old, there needs to be a focus on the last sixty years, but even then there is no reason to have two pictures that depict nearly exactly the same thing in a manner that suggests Israelis are just running and screaming through the streets for their lives all the time. The section is called "Conflicts and peace treaties"; those pictures relate to a conflict, but they depict it as a one-sided constant period of terror. -- tariqabjotu 13:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

"IF a video takes too much time to load = it's probably your internet." Oh, well, then, sorry for thinking that it would be better to have content accessible to everyone than have a video that's going to harp on for two minutes about something only tangentially related to the article so that those with the best Internet in the most developed nations can see how terrorized the poor Israelis are. Yeah, how stupid of me for thinking that.

And I'm also sorry for forgetting that removing anything from an article about the Israeli-Palestinian article will invariably seen as "censoring" by someone. This is why I stopped caring a flying flick about these articles so long ago; it's just such a pain in the ass. A more representative chart (if I were one for charts, which I'm not) would be File:Israelis killed by Palestinians in Israel and Palestinians killed by Israelis in Gaza - 2008.png because that, at least, (a) avoids depicting just a random month of no particular importance, (b) avoids making it seem like Palestinian actions happen in a bubble, and (c) is included in the relevant Gaza War article, but you know as well as I do that no one seriously proposing its inclusion would last a day with you standing guard.

You see a personal dispute because you don't see acronyms interspersed after every other word. I'm, therefore, acting like the human being that I am, rather than the machine you want me to be, the machine that scans a database to string together a few words that maybe, just maybe, make a coherent point. I presented an argument with coherent reasons that, at the very least, allude to various policies and guidelines and you don't even want to respond because I don't spell it out for you. You won't respond to even the most basic points -- that half the images under a section that documents forty years are from -- what -- the last five months or that the video has an extremely biased caption -- because I don't point directly to Policy A and Policy B. I'll ask you again; do you only understand wiki-acronyms? Because, if so, refrain from wasting even more of my time -- and yours -- by stepping aside. Let someone else respond, and let someone else make editorial judgments. Like it or not; you will have to interact with people; you can't just blindly revert and then dismiss your opponent's position as too "personal" to warrant a response. -- tariqabjotu 13:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you really an admin Tari? Statements such as,

sorry for thinking that it would be better to have content accessible to everyone than have a video that's going to harp on for two minutes about something only tangentially related to the article so that those with the best Internet in the most developed nations can see how terrorized the poor Israelis are. Yeah, how stupid of me for thinking that.

are extremely offensive and demonstrates how out of touch you are with the situation in Israel and the occupied territories. I really don't know how you came up with such an elaborate and off-topic response when my questions were very explicit: A) What is wrong with the pictures and video? Is it not consistent with the paragraphs? Yes, it is. Someone claimed this was not the "daily life" for Israelis, I explained why that was certainly not the case. Then you dubiously understate the pertinence of these rocket attacks with snobby comments like "poor Israeli's." I think the problem has gone beyond pictures and video to unfair assessment of user motivations that must violate policy. Wikifan12345 (talk) 13:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Offensive? How? The video shows Israelis running through the streets screaming. As the videographer surely knew, and as anyone who sees the caption (to say nothing of the video) can tell, the video is intended to show how much Israelis are suffering. I'm not denying that there is suffering in Israel -- of course, there is (and, of course, there is suffering elsewhere) -- but it is not our job to elicit sympathy for Israelis -- or anyone for that matter. That video is not illustrating a paragraph -- it's next to a paragraph discussing the Six-Day War -- it's there to do precisely what I said: show how terrorized Israelis are. -- tariqabjotu 13:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, cause you clearly have demonstrated a naive and partial attitude towards the history of Israel. Look at my posts and contrast them with yours. Extremely combative, abrasive, and unnecessarily mean. As far as the video is concerned, it is consistent with the paragraph and general knowledge. whether this elicits sympathy or not is relevant, I'd imagine 300 million+ celebrate when they watch those videos. This article is about Israel and as such tends to revolve around Israel. Your odd obsession over understating the experiences of Jews with snooty and ignorant comments such "terrorized those poor poor Israelis" does not exactly win the hearts and minds of editors. To actually question the "videographer" is utterly bizarre. I didn't know you could read people's minds. Did they teach you that at MIT? Wikifan12345 (talk) 13:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Can I suggest that you two (a) cool it, (b) post a notice on a relevant project page asking for comment? Zero 14:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages featured articles
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages articles under general sanctions
• All unassessed articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• FA-Class country articles
• WikiProject Countries articles
• FA-Class Israel-related articles
• Top-importance Israel-related articles
• WikiProject Israel articles
• FA-Class Jewish history-related articles
• Top-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles
• FA-Class Judaism articles
• Top-importance Judaism articles
• FA-Class Western Asia articles
• Top-importance Western Asia articles
• WikiProject Western Asia articles
• Unassessed Arab world articles
• Unknown-importance Arab world articles
• WikiProject Arab world articles