Misplaced Pages

Support the removal of text that was done twelve months ago. The stress on intra-article consistency is fine, of course. So is motherhood. But why labour to include what many editors have unfortunately misread as a licence for chaos? Groups of articles on similar themes benefit enormously from similar styling (where MOS allows for a choice). Why bend over backwards against such efforts? They are clearly in readers' interests. MOS was, till a few days ago, silent on such laudable efforts. What benefit is there in it making a statement that is bound to be misused by those who favour complete independence of styling, at each of 4,000,000 articles? No one is suggesting that a contrary statement be made; just that it is not the business of MOS inadvertently to counter worthwhile efforts to improve the readability of closely associated articles.

Noetica 08:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

By "what many editors have misread as a license for chaos," what do you mean? What happened, specifically, and when? Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

*Oppose removal by which I really mean "support re-insertion." Misplaced Pages is not like other encyclopedias. It requires on the unpaid service of editors from many disparate backgrounds and it has no chain of command. There's no one who can legitimately say, "Do it this way because I'm the boss and I've earned my authority." Inter- but not intra-article consistency strikes a balance between neatness and the diversity of opinion among our editors. If it is "bound to be misused," then show at least one case in which that has happened. Has an editor ever claimed "We are not allowed to make these articles match each other; the MoS says so"? Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:31, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I've already addressed this fallacious "we're volunteers so we should be able to do whatever we want for personal reasons, and consistency can go screw itself" meme at WP:SSF. Lack of payment has nothing to do with anything; there's no logical connection. It's like saying "I have blonde hair, so I should be allowed to eat small children", or "my dog is old, so I shouldn't have to pay the water bill". — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 22:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying that volunteers get to do whatever they want, and you know that perfectly well, but anyone who's worked in a volunteer organization can tell you that it's not the same type of dynamic as a workplace. On Misplaced Pages, no one volunteer outranks another. "Do X because I'm your boss" holds no weight here. "Do X because the majority of sources say that X is right and Y is wrong" does. People don't pull rank; sources do. When the sources cannot show that one way is better than another, no one person or small group of people should get to order the others around. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

*Support re-removal per Noetica, and per the fact that the removal has been stable for a long time, and the fact that we do not need to repeat everything ever said in every guideline and policy on the system. It's already implicit in MoS's mandate as a guideline that it operates in juxtaposition and compromise with other forms of guidance here. Reiterating that a guideline can have exceptions, or that any particular guideline is not an ironclad policy, is not what we do here. Also, it really has been misinterpreted as a license for chaos. It was removed for a reason.

Furthermore, there's an underlying assumption (one that is often advanced by the sort of editorial misprioritization addressed by WP:SSF, and WP:NOTHERE before it) that inter-article consistency is not desirable, and is immediately trumped by narrow, even personal preferences. Yet, obviously it is desirable to the extent that it can happen without raising intractable problems (like those addressed by WP:ENGVAR). If it were not desirable MOS would be very short, as the bulk of it and its subpages is style advice for dealing with English-language prose across all articles here. Material is not being broken out of MoS into small, topic-specific WikiProject "guidelines"; rather, the exact opposite is happening: Good advice from projects is making its way steadily into MoS so that it is applied consistently in articles on other topics.
— SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 08:24, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

• You said "It was removed for a reason.", but what? The only clues I can find are the original edit summary, and the archived thread Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 124#Extraneous clutter at the top - neither of which discuss the sentence/section in question at all. Is there anything else to look at, that makes you (and Noetica) consider it a license for chaos? (I'm assuming this is related to some sub-battle about date or titles or dashes or engvar or etc, but I'm not familiar with what/when/where/who :/ If I/we have more information, we can give better input. It is an RFC, after all; lots of non-regulars who need context...). Here's the talkpage history from 4/5 Aug 2011, in case that helps. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I second Quiddity's request. You are the second person to say that this rule has been "misinterpreted as a license for chaos." What happened, specifically, and when? Was it only once or many times? We've seen some evidence that this text prevents problems, but if we can prove that this text causes more problems than it prevents, then it should stay out. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:43, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Please do not fixate on the idea that only a specific, major event is important; there was no Great Wiki Disaster of 2011. What there has been in response to this "rule" and various other kowtowing to intractable special interests who refuse to write consistent, encyclopedic prose for a general audience, is such editors taking license to do the exact opposite, and write articles on "their" topic as if intended for and published by professionals in their field instead of, well, everyone else in the entire world, which is what Misplaced Pages is actually here for, not regurgitating precious nitpicks from academia. It leads to wikiprojects acting as if they are sovereign states that own entire ranges of topics, and has led to enormous amounts of entrenched editwarring over the last 8+ years, threats of editorial boycotts, wikidiva resignations by editors, and other childish nonsense of massive proportions, all because some people are not here to write an encyclopedia but rather to spread their sub-sub-sub-field's particular stylistic peccadilloes and force everyone else to use them. Enough of that idiocy. It's been nothing but destructive. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 22:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, problems attributable to this phrase would be more relevant to the MoS if they happened more than once. If it was a lot of little incidents rather than one big incident, then point to a good example or two. However, it's not immediately obvious what "not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole" has to do with the issue of writing for a general vs. a specialized audience.

Encyclopedic tone seems to be a separate issue from intra- vs. inter-article consistency, and it is covered elsewhere in the MoS. All of Misplaced Pages should be written for a general audience. Can you show or tell us how the phrase "but not necessarily across Misplaced Pages as a whole" has caused these problems? Can you point to one or more talk page discussions in which someone cited that phrase as a reason to write articles in a Wikiproject in an inappropriate manner? Did it happen in WP:BIRDS? Those guys are pretty big on writing articles for a specialized audience. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

*Retain/oppose removal' - The key words being "not necessarily". On those formatting issues about which broad community-wide discussion arrives at a consensus, consistency can and should be enforced, but about those the community maintains a more laissez-faire attitude, editors should have the leeway to improve articles as they see fit, given the specific needs of the specific article, without having to answer to those who try to enforce a non-existing consensus. The very most important thing, which it is best that we put our energies to, is to give our readers good, accurate information, well presented, rather than that every article have every tiny formatting aspect be exactly the same. Such "fooliosh consistency" is, in Emerson's words "the hobgoblin of little minds", in Shaw's words "the enemy of enterprise", and in Wilde's words "the last refuge of the unimaginative." Surely our editors are just the opposite: enterprising, imaginative and open to the world. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Misquotation, and skewed quotation out of context that misconstrues the intent of the original, is the hobgoblin of people whose arguments are too weak to stand on their own. Emerson actually said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers...", which is very, very different, and his message was about radical philosophy and the advancement of novel ideas, which Misplaced Pages absolutely does not do. Just one example. By way of contrast, see the old aphorism "Consistency, thou art a jewel." Its origin is lost, but uses the virtue-as-jewel metaphor of the Elizabethan era, so it's at least as old as Shakespeare (cursorily searching, I've found it in print in the 1800s, but Bartlett suggests it's much older).

What you're missing is that Emerson, Shaw and Wilde were all writing about the negative effects of conformity on new, creative output such as literature, fashion and other forms of artistic expression, as well as the propounding of new theories. That is not what Misplaced Pages is. We are not permitted to engage in original research or even novel synthesis. And WP is not creative writing. It is necessarily dry, strictly informative prose that serves a purpose. It is formal, technical communication, not art. It serves this function best when it does not confuse the readership or make them mentally work hard to figure out what we are trying to convey. Emerson is worth quoting in more detail here: "To be great is to be misunderstood." Emerson argues for being confusing and self-contradictory! That's fine if you are a philosopher refining your outlook over time. It's a disaster in an encyclopedia. Inconsistency between articles here, for no reason other than to suit the in-house preferences of (mostly) academics, government people and fandom obsessives (the three most common sources of WP:SSF problems around here), is directly inimical to Misplaced Pages's actual goals, which are in service to readers, not editors. Consistency between articles, where it does not create novel problems like conflict between English dialects, is a sensible and necessary consistency in our context, not a foolish one. More recently, Tim Robbins (again writing of creative not technical/formal educational output) said "only logicians and cretins are consistent", and that's important: Consistency in art is certainly cretinous and yawn-inducing. But encyclopedia writing is by definition the work of logicians.

In closing, see the other quotations at http://en.wikiquote.org/Consistency, and notice that all of them that are in opposition to consistency are about either a) art and other creative output, or b) are about individuals changing their mind (i.e., a completely different meaning of the world "consistency" that isn't relevant to this discussion at all, and Cicero even suggests it's a misuse of the concept). I dare you to find a single exception. Even Larry Wall's quip that "the essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent" is directly applicable here, as it suggests that exceptions to consistency in human relation to reality (which is what WP is a tool for) should be rare; an insistent lack of consistency in such a context – what he calls "consistent inconsistency" – is, he suggests, a working definition of insane.
— SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 23:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

*Support removal. The extra words seem to be encouraging inconsistency far too strongly. , indeed one responder says "consistency across articles has always been discouraged" which seems a good example of a rule which should always be ignored: should I look for ways of making every article I edit inconsistent with every other article? The wording chosen should not give anybody an excuse to be uncooperative, whether they wish to apply something too widely or ignore interrelationships between articles. Although readers must accept that Misplaced Pages's articles follow no single strict house style, they are not well served if, for example, individual articles covering the six books of a series have corresponding content distributed differently across sections, perhaps in a different order or with different names. The work of adding related information to several such articles could be doubled or trebled depending on how they were inconsistent and such barriers to editing cannot contribute to content improvement. Not even in a single article do we revert constructive additions merely because a wrong sort of dash has been used, so I do not see consistency within an appropriate scope, maintained tactfully, as stifling new content. Neither would any expectation of consistency remove the necessity for having consensus to maintain it: I would expect the ease of finding consensus to correspond to the closeness of the relationship in a self-limiting way. --Mirokado (talk) 14:00, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

• Hum, my bad. A better wording: "enforcing consistency across articles has always been discouraged". As in "changing articles from one MOS-approved to another MOS-approved style, just because you would like all articles in an arbitrary group to have the same style." People won't complain if you are actually working in a group of articles and you need to do changes in order to work better, and you only change articles that you are working in, or at most the odd article that is closely related. Now, if one was to land in a group of articles for the first time, then change the style to one's personal preference, then edit war when people complain that specific articles have a different style for a reason, etc, ..... --Enric Naval (talk) 18:49, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

  Thanks, Enric. Striking some of my response. I do agree with what you say just above, but not every editor is as sensible as we are and I'm still concerned that the proposed wording will encourage uncooperative behaviour, so I will stick with supporting removal. --Mirokado (talk) 21:15, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

  Ideally nothing would depend on such a fine balance of words, but experience of Misplaced Pages editing suggests to me that either wording will be used by those who cherry-pick the MOS to support a prior position. "Sensible" editors already understand that intra-article consistency is a priority, and that inter-article consistency is highly desirable, and that both kinds of consistency are subject to consensus, not ownership. Unfortunately many editors are not "sensible". I guess that preference here may depend on which kind of uncooperative behaviour you've mostly encountered. I'm concerned that removing the wording will encourage uncooperative behaviour, namely editors trying to change styles which have consensus in one area of Misplaced Pages to those which have consensus in another, because this is the kind of edit-warring I've mostly encountered. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:31, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Look at that post. When I keep asking about evidence, this is what I mean. What kinds of edit wars have you seen, what fights on talk pages, what poorly worded articles, what bad reader experiences have you seen and how do you think changing/keeping this wording would fix it? Peter, can you drop us a link to any of these edit wars? Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Well since the proposed addition has been absent for a year or so I can't point to any recent problems it has caused. I can however point to responsible and constructive activities that this wording appears to target and wonder why anyone would expend so much effort to try to prevent them:

• the List of horror films extends over 70 other pages. My attention was drawn to these lists by an obviously incorrect entry while I was checking links from a stub I had created (Amy B. Harris) for general quality issues (which does not mean that I expected all those links to be consistent). These lists were in an appalling state with lots of redlinks and lots of incorrect entries. I noticed that because I naturally checked the other lists as well as the original one, something which would be pointless if consistency between related articles is to be discouraged. Although the lists generally had the same number of columns and the same column headings, in detail there were random differences between them as well as formatting inconsistencies within some articles. The only practicable way to fix these problems was to apply a uniform structure to all the articles and then check progressively for problems and correct them. The more subtle the problems, the more the growing consistency helped to reveal them. The end result is that (with content improvements mainly due to contributions from other editors) the lists are much more correct and better sourced. Citations needed on more than one list can be copied and pasted without alteration as can the occasional entry allocated to the wrong year. The fatuous entries from drive-by editors have almost disappeared. All the changes were discussed on talk pages, often with an announcement and progress report accompanying each set of changes.
  If the MOS allows an editor to insist that some of these lists can have a different table structure, or be a bulleted list instead of tables, or have a different citation format, or whatever, because "consistency between articles is not necessarily required", then I presume I would either have to let some articles rot, ignore the problems completely or start an RFC. I certainly would not do the work twice over to accommodate what I would regard as obstruction.
• cooperation on the works of Anne McCaffrey is relatively easy because, generally, the articles on her books have a common format. We can refine changes to one article including discussions on the talk page knowing that the corresponding updates can be made with reasonable effort and reliably to the other articles. There have been disagreements which have been resolved on talk pages. New ideas are not stifled, very much the reverse, we are currently discussing a new set of improvements. As far as I know, nobody has been made to feel unable to make changes to the pages. I don't think anybody is saying "therefore every article about a book by a particular author must have the same format", simply that the MOS should not set out to prevent such cooperation.
• it seems in practice unlikely that editors will often challenge these sorts of scenario, but that indicates that this proposed addition is in fact pointless. If anybody were to make use of it, the result would be more discussion not less, resulting in RFCs if necessary.
• in cases like date linking which has been mentioned, nobody is going to prevent such an activity by saying "articles do not have to be consistent", that is far to vague to counter someone's conviction that the world can only be saved by linking (or delinking) every date. The lines of defence are already quite adequate, with a requirement for consensus in advance for extensive systematic changes, blocks for editors who do not accept that (we can all think of cases where that has happened) and specific criteria determining when a particular disposition is appropriate. Nobody prepared to be blocked rather than achieve consensus is going to take the slightest notice of this text even if it is adopted. --Mirokado (talk) 23:04, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

To summarize, Mirokado seems to be saying the following 1. Inter-article consistency can make some improvements easier to make. 2. Mirokado describes one set of articles that happens to be written consistently and is working out well. To these two points, I respond that just because inter-article consistency is not required doesn't mean it's not permitted. Consistency alone isn't reason enough to change format, but my opinion is that effecting repairs is. 3. Mirokado thinks that the wording is extra/unnecessary. 4. Mirokado provides an argument against the date delinking example, which was previously offered as evidence by Enric N. Mirokado has not listed any edit wars or other nonhypothetical events attributable to the inclusion of the phrase "not necessarily across Misplaced Pages as a whole" in the MoS. Let me know if I've misinterpreted any of that. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

That is a pretty fair summary. It seems clear from your response that your concerns are not intended to impact the sorts of activity I have mentioned. As far as "consistency alone" is concerned, there will pretty well always be other benefits. I have already given examples from the editor's perspective. Readers benefit if they can easily understand where to find information in article Y if they have just been looking at the corresponding information in article X. Readers' expectations will be stronger the more closely they perceive the articles to be related.

Responding to "just because inter-article consistency is not required doesn't mean it's not permitted": if the MOS says anything at all about this it should acknowledge, as well, that although not required across the whole project substantial consistency is essential among many sets of articles in order to provide a satisfactory user experience and highly desirable, again among relevant articles, to support effective collaboration between editors. If it does not then it is encouraging a substandard user experience and article ownership in various forms, both of which are totally unacceptable. --Mirokado (talk) 20:49, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Mirokado, no one is saying consistency across articles, or groups of articles, must be opposed. The point is simply that just because an editor punctuates in a certain way in Holocaust in Poland doesn't mean editors must punctuate the same way in Holocaust in Romania. The sentence at issue is: "An overriding principle is that style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole." The word "necessarily" is important here. It signals that consistency across articles may sometimes, or regularly, be appropriate, but not invariably, and that some style issues are left to the editors on the page to decide. SlimVirgin 21:27, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I believe that the MoS should not state that any sort of cross-article consistency is desirable because that statement will be taken as law. 1. We should give our editors freedom where correct English allows. 2. Some articles may logically belong to more than one group. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:13, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Some things are the same across pages (e.g. the general appearance), and there have been style practices that were so odd that I was glad to see cross-article consistency applied (e.g. overlinking). But generally I agree that internal consistency is the aim, and agree too about the groups. SlimVirgin 03:49, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Break 3

Counting votes

• I have reinstated the tally (see subsection below). No one should think that numbers alone count; but the voting has become diffused or replicated by quotation in various subsections. Quite confusing for newcomers, I might add! These lists serve an index of contributions so people can find them and evaluate their arguments. Noetica 22:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• And I have closed it again. If you want to open your own RfC later you're welcome to do that, but keeping a running tally of numbers is pointless at best, so please allow this RfC to run its course without it. SlimVirgin 03:33, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

• I have no view one way or the other on the above discussion about including or not including the sentence about Misplaced Pages as a whole other than to comment that you might as well reverse the two words not and necessarily if it is included - just a comment... Apteva (talk) 09:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Presentation of evidence for and against "not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole"

I think this discussion might benefit from a summary of the evidence presented. Please limit discussions to things that can be verified (rather than discussing reasoning alone). I have paraphrased four other editors below and I invite them to replace my words with their own as they see fit. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Non-hypothetical evidence for and against "not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole"

This section is for listing problems, such as fights and edit conflicts, that have actually happened. Contributors, please post links to the relevant changes, talk pages and archives whenever possible. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Enric Naval cited arbcom case "Findings of fact" (Enric N, please feel free to replace these lines with a brief explanation of why you think this discussion is relevant and why you think the inclusion of these words would have prevented problems.)

• Enric Naval cited arbcom case "Date delinking" (Enric N, please feel free to replace these lines with a brief explanation of why you think this discussion is relevant and why you think the inclusion of these words would have prevented problems.)

• Noetica said that the Mexican-American war page has to do with this issue. (Noetica, please feel free to replace these lines with a brief explanation of why you think this discussion is relevant and why you think the exclusion of these words would have prevented problems.)

• Quiddity cited the infobox discussion below as evidence that the absence of the words "not necessarily..." from the MoS can cause fights. (Quiddity, please feel free to replace these lines with a brief explanation of why you think this discussion is relevant and why you think the inclusion of these words would have prevented problems.)

Hypothetical evidence for and against "not neccesarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole"

This section is for listing problems or advantages that you believe would or could happen but haven't witnessed. PLEASE BE SPECIFIC. Don't say "this wording will be misused" or "this wording will keep Misplaced Pages running smoothly"; say how you think it will be misused or keep things running smoothly and why. Contributors, please include links where relevant. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Mikorado cited many articles dealing with the works of Anne McCaffery and said that inter-article consistency facilitated making repairs by saving the editors' time. (Mikorado, feel free to replace these lines with your own words.)

• Mikorado cited many articles within List of Horror Films and said that inter-article consistency facilitated making repairs by saving the editors' time. (Mikorado, feel free to replace these lines with your own words.)

Summary of RfC: “Internal consistency versus consistency across articles”

A request for closure has been made, and the bot has removed the RFC tag, and in the meantime the thread has been archived. I have unarchived it and attempted to summarize the issues as follows.

Wording:

It is proposed to add the following sentence to the fourth paragraph of the introduction: “An overriding principle is that style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole.” There is a consensus, or at least no opposition, to adding the first part of the sentence, but the second part of the sentence is contested.

Issues:

• Those who wish to add “though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole” say it is needed in order to discourage those who want to use similar format for similar articles, and that style issues should be determined by personal preference.
• Those who do not wish to add “though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole” say it will discourage similar styling in groups of articles on similar topics, that the phrase is confusing and has been used for pointless argument, and that consistency across the Misplaced Pages as a whole is the purpose of having a Manual of Style in the first place

Survey:

• Support adding “though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole”: SlimVirgin, Enric Naval, Quiddity, Amatulić, Binksternet, Shenme, Darkfrog24, jc37, Beyond My Ken, Jimp, Peter coxhead, CBM , Resolute, Hiding, 87.112.91.134, Jayron32, WhatamIdoing

• Oppose adding “though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole”: Noetica, SMcCandlish, Ohconfucius, Boson, Dicklyon, Tony, 86.160.221.242 , Neotarf, Mirokado, Br’er Rabbit , 128.127.107.10, 87.79.226.106, Rreagan007

Neotarf (talk) 21:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

We should probably add that this is a restoration vs. endorsement of removal rather than an add. The words "not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole" were originally in the MoS. This is about whether to put them back, not whether to add them for the first time.

Ideally, disagreements on Misplaced Pages are supposed to be decided by the preponderance of sources and evidence rather than by the preponderance of proponents. So far, only one person has offered real evidence that having or not having this phrase in the MoS would make any material difference in the reader or editor experience, and that is Eric N, who cited disputes in which the idea of internal consistency was involved. Mirokado cited a few hypothetical problems but nothing has actually happened. A lot of the opposition to re-adding these words has been "this is unnecessary" rather than "this would cause problems." Most of the support for re-adding these words has been "the absence of these words can cause problems." Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify, while there may or may not have been a request to close the RfC, it is my understanding that the bot would have removed the tag tomorrow but when the thread got archived with the tag in it the RFCbot removed the tag from the archive. In any case, in closing an RfC what is important is not a tally of votes, but a summary of arguments. In my view, I have already commented that a consistent style is necessarily not possible across WP as a whole, and was not expressing any view one way or the other about the inclusion or exclusion of that or any other part of the sentence. I would also like to add that the words "An overriding principle" are a bit over the top, as that would tend to indicate that there were other principles that were not as important. This RfC reminds me of the problem of drafting anything by committee. What actually works is for one person to go off and write a proposal, and then have the committee edit and improve it, or even reject that wording. When a committee tries to write something it takes forever to discuss each word. Apteva (talk) 20:48, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Note that Apteva has changed the archiving time to 60 days and has also altered various other archiving parameters. Apteva also notes on my talk page that "There are about three copies of one of the RfC's in one of the archives left over from other times that RfC was un-archived, and they can all be simply deleted from the archive, but that has not reached the top of my to do list."

Neotarf (talk) 08:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Those are technical changes. The bot has already moved on to /Archive130, and when the archive was unarchived the internal bot counter was inadvertently changed back to 129 which would have meant that new archives would go back on /Archive129 instead of where they belonged, on /Archive130. 600k is in my opinion horrendously large for archive pages. Mostly this page had been manually archived, and many of the archive pages are on the order of 25k, not even 200k. An edit summary noted that the archive was being split into smaller archives. The bot automatically archives any thread with no response in 7 days, and the RfC was split into sections that are getting replies and those with no responses, so it seemed easier to just tell the bot to slow down until the RfC is closed, particularly because there were two of them open at the time. In another 5 days both will have expired and the archiving can go back to 7 days. Apteva (talk) 05:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Actually, Darkfrog24, if you check the links, and I did, the contested words are not present on the page, awaiting possible removal. They were removed last year. And SMcCandlish and Noetica both presented specific examples of problems that had been caused by that phrase before it was changed. On the other hand, no one has shown anything negative that has actually happened in the last year without the contested phrase. Neotarf (talk) 20:59, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say that they were currently on the page and that we were discussing their removal. I said that they used to be on the page and we were discussing reinserting them vs. endorsing their removal after the fact: "This is about whether to put them back, not whether to add them for the first time." As someone pointed out, a year is not so long for the MoS. If the person who removed it had discussed it on the talk page first (not required, but on this page it often helps), then the change probably wouldn't have gone through, if this discussion is any example.

I read SMC's and Noetica's posts and I didn't see any specific examples of anything, but they do both go on and it's possible that things got buried in the rhetoric. What evidence did they present? Noetica said "Look at this Mexican-American War discussion" but didn't say what he thought that discussion had to do with this one. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

And the contested words used to be *NOT* on this page. Rather you should be asking with what discussion they were inserted in the first place, and with what edit summary.

You didn't seem to have any trouble finding the evidence presented by SMcCandlish and Noetica when you argued against it in the above discussion. But this is not summary material, it is just a repetition of arguments already in the (rather long and unorganized) discussion section. You were invited before to make a summary of why this material should be added, and you did not do so.

Neotarf (talk) 07:45, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Neotarf, I most certainly did and do have trouble finding the evidence that Noetica and SMC may or may not have presented: . They both said "inter-article consistency is desirable" but didn't cite any cases in which the wording in question caused any problems with the possible exception that Noetica said "read the Mex-Am war page" but didn't say why. That's not an argument against evidence. It's a request for evidence. You seem to have missed this the first time, so I'll be more explicit: If you saw something that I did not, please point it out to me.

Maybe you and I aren't using the word "evidence" the same way. I would consider what Enric and Mikorado did to be evidence. Enric cited disputes that actually happened, with a link. Mikorado referred to specific articles and events and said why those articles might be threatened. It was hypothetical, but it made sense. Noetica and SMC both expressed a bunch of opinions, but I don't consider that to be evidence.

Neotarf, you will note that I said, "This is about whether to put them back, not whether to add them for the first time." I am not trying to trick anyone. I feel that there is a difference between restoring wording that used to be there and proposing new wording. Technically, the whole MoS used to not be there.

I actually did give a summary of why I think the wording should be restored. It's a few threads up under "oppose removal."

As for "what discussion and with what edit summary," Quiddity dug that stuff up a couple weeks ago. Hit CTRL-F for "legwork" and you'll see a bunch of links. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:47, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Re: "no one has shown anything negative" - see the huge thread about infoboxes below! (and all the grumbling about it in many elsewheres, where the rubber meets the road). Site-wide-Consistency is one of the main arguments in favour of "infoboxes everywhere, regardless of objections".

See WP:ENGVAR. See WP:DATES ("Consistency in style and formatting promotes clarity and cohesion; this is especially important within an article"). See the very strong opinions that different groups with different priorities bring to other xVAR discussions. See WP:RETAIN.

We clearly still hold the value of “though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole”, but removing that phrase from this MoS page removes the explicit mention, and makes it merely implicit in the minds of those who follow it in various circumstances. Removing it moves us closer to being a bureaucracy. It should be retained (replaced), for the same reasons that IAR needs to be stated explicitly and also repeated in many places. —Quiddity (talk) 21:21, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Premature closure reversed

With this edit I reversed a non-admin closure of the RFC. Clearly there is no consensus, so the RFC should be closed by an admin. The editor (User:Nathan Johnson) erred in not realising this, and by less than competent summation of the issues. In particular, he completely failed to distinguish consistency in general (the purpose of all manuals of style, including MOS) and consistency where MOS allows choices. This distinction is crucial among the issues confronting us in the RFC, in a number of ways.
As a central participant, concerned at least as much about due process as about the outcome of the RFC, I have been absent from Misplaced Pages for the last week for personal reasons. I mentioned one reason on this talkpage, and put a note at my talkpage. Meanwhile, Darkfrog wanted some summation from each side. I will be able to provide my summation within the next 24 hours. I ask to be given a chance to do that.
If this RFC results in retention of the contested wording, I will consider issuing a new RFC to address the genuine issues that have been aired in the course of this one. The conflation of utterly separate types of consistency has seen a great deal of time wasted. The proposer of this RFC should have known better, and so should a number of participants. And RFC should be framed, and discussed, in a way that keeps separate issues separate – from start to finish. ☺
Addition: Even as I wrote, the editor reverted my reversion. I have reverted that reversion, but will not do so again.
Noetica 23:05, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Misplaced Pages style and naming Unsorted Error: Invalid RfC category specified: |proposals Biographies WikiProjects and collaborations When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Manual of Style/Infoboxes says that infoboxes are optional ("neither required nor prohibited"). I would like to extend this on that subpage and the main MoS page to read: "The addition of an infobox is an optional style issue that is left to the editors on the page. Where no consensus can be reached, defer to the style used by the first major contributor, per WP:STYLEVAR." SlimVirgin 20:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Survey (Infoboxes)

• Support. SlimVirgin 22:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don;t agree with the part about defer to the style.. first contibutor - it just doesn't match policies - I think on the other hand that some deference to consistency should exist - eg most species articles have a species box., ditto habited places - in potential cases of conflict I would suggest defaulting 'to the norm'..Oranjblud (talk) 22:47, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. Deference to first major contributor is baldfaced ownership. Infoboxes are a de facto standard; there are millions of them, and good faith editors add hundreds per day. It is disruptive for a dis-info band to staunchly oppose these good and appropriate improvements. It retards the project and is toxic to the community. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 23:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support ...Modernist (talk) 23:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Why is this section once again placed above the one below? And why has the section bellow been headed "discussion" as though the comments there are not replies to the proposal in hand? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:59, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Because some people think RfCs are essentially a form of voting? — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 15:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Support. If the project has a MOS subset, such as WP:MOSLAW or WP:MILMOS then it should take precedence over projects that do not have an MOS subset. Other than that, I'm fine with the first major contributor approach for any conflicts. I am opposed to them becoming optional in all cases. GregJackP Boomer! 01:28, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support primarily to halt the battleground mentality that is otherwise brought to the table by the aggressively-pro-infobox-everywhere editors. I'm pro-infobox-everywhere (because metadata is useful, and I personally learn well via bulletpoints and lists and reductionist synopsese, and can extrapolate oversimplifications/archetypes with ease), but not via the tactics currently used (grind down opposition, 'outvote' the person who wrote the article, etc etc), and not without acknowledging the very legitimate problems that infoboxes often run into. It's the rude/siege mentality that is killing us, and causing stress and retirements. I'll add more, in the discussion below, later. —Quiddity (talk) 03:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support, but Oppose a likely interpretation. If people follow what this actually says, and follow consensus when there is one, then any damage this causes is likely to be minimal, and it could possibly help. But I'm pretty sure that some people will read this as an analogy to ENGVAR, and say that the first contributor trumps everyone else ... and that would be a huge mistake, as long as this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. In military history articles for instance, if certain types of articles tend to have an infobox, our readers notice things that like, and will add a similar infobox to similar articles. If we invent some rule that an infobox is "not allowed" because someone back in 2006 didn't add one, that's only going to generate a long series of frustrated editors who feel slapped down because we reverted what seemed like an obvious omission to them. My main concern here is creating an editing enviroment that's hostile to people who don't "know the rules". - Dank (push to talk) 12:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Switching to Oppose: Sorry, I just noticed the last two words ... it's okay to tilt the playing field slightly towards the first major contributor, but ... seeing this issue through the eyes of the wikiprojects I'm familiar with, my point won't work for everyone ... we see infoboxes as primarily a matter of content selection rather than style, and treating it as just another optional style issue is part of the problem. - Dank (push to talk) 15:52, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose as the defer portion seems like it could be used to keep infoboxes off pages just because the first major contributor didn't put one on. Also, I like the boxen. --Nouniquenames (talk) 16:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose who is the first "major" contributor? Support that User:A writes a 1000 byte stub, User:B then enlarges that to 10,000 bytes and User:C adds another 20,000 bytes, who is the "first major contributor"? Suppose now that User:B's work was riddled with errors and did not include any citations, then User:C corrected the work and added many citations - who would be the major contributor? Unlike ENGVAR, where an article can start off life without using specifically UK or US English, all articles start off without an infobox, so trying to draw inferences from ENGVAR is not appropriate. Martinvl (talk) 16:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Hi Martin, I've replied below. SlimVirgin 19:24, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - Martinvl's reasoning above is compelling. Opposing change to an article based on an individual's preference is a recipe for fossilising our content and preventing improvement. The issue of whether an infobox improves an article is not so clear-cut that a rule will work 100% of the time, but I can see sufficient benefit in general that the presence of an infobox may be assumed to be the default. --RexxS (talk) 19:34, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• I think there is a general consensus on Misplaced Pages that infoboxes are useful - this can be seen in the large proportion of articles that include them. I feel infoboxes are part of our "house style" that makes Misplaced Pages articles distinctive. The question here is different than CITEVAR, where the citation information is included regardless of the form of the citations. With infoboxes, there should be a presumption in favor of them (just as there is a presumption in favor of references). The exact kind of infobox is a separate issue - if there is no consensus on that for a specific article, I agree that the first infobox to be added should be used. But in general we should expect that adding infoboxes is an improvement to the article. — Carl (CBM · talk) 11:24, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose When I create an article I hardly ever add one of these boxes, I leave that to people who enjoy creating them (so I do not see the argument that because I have created an article without them some other editor can come along later and interpret my lack of adding a box as my opposition to them). The argument about CITEVAR is not a good one because that is strongly opposed by some editors such as myself in the way that some editors interpret what style means. Instead the argument if used should refer to the main MOS footnote 1 where there is general greement. In this case arguing that one should defer to the first non stub contributor is like arguing that if the first major contributor did not use section heading, then section heading can be removed at will and not added without consensus. First major contributor is useful for National Verities of English, but not much else, as it impedes the development of the project as people come up with better ways to present and order information. -- PBS (talk) 15:24, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose 2nd sentence; support and suggest reinforcing the 1st, to make it clear it is telling wikiprojects they don't own articles they feel are within their scope and cannot force them to have or not have infoboxes or any particular form of infobox. I cannot at all support the notion that "style of first major editor" is a good idea here, though. We only ever go that route when there is no other choice (e.g. American vs. British English in a topic with no strong national ties - the choice is 100% arbitrary and no functional/utility argument or other rational preference can be offered, only an entirely personal, subjective "I like it" feeling). This is not one of those cases; there are rational arguments for and against infoboxes, even particular infoboxes, that can be made and discussed and consensus thereby arrived at normally, on a per-article basis, just like 99.9% of everything else about that article. We do not need Yet Another Rule (cf. WP:CREEP) that impedes the ability of editors to arrive at consensus by reason instead of doing something arbitrarily by fiat like "I was here first, so you can go get bent." WP generally never works that way except in the handful of cases where it is an unavoidable lesser evil. Infoboxes aren't one, they're just something that a few people obsess about and won't stop arguing about. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 15:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong oppose What if the editor is a newbie and doesn't know how to make an infobox? So because he or she didn't include on when starting g an article that that article can never have one? Dumb. And a terribly foolish enshrinement of ownership issues. Goes against the idea of improvement by current consensus..oknazevad (talk) 18:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

  Comment: That's an invalid argument (it's a straw man); no one has proposed that newbies, or any particular editor, be forced to add an infobox themselves. Rather this is about whether any editor or group of editors can force an article to have or not have an infobox at all. Obviously, per WP:CONSENSUS and everything else about how WP works, the answer to that is "no". You may be right (or not) to oppose this proposal, but what you wrote addresses a different, imaginary one. :-)

• Oppose (sorry) I appreciate the sentiment in trying to resolve a dispute, but enshrining what is essentially first mover advantage in lieu of discussion is not a good idea. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. Infoboxes are useful. It's not just a style issue as with “12 September” vs “September 12” where the difference between the two is completely immaterial 99% of the time. Just because I didn't bother to add an infobox straight away when I created an article doesn't mean there should never be one. — A. di M.  19:03, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose The problem with using first-major-contributor to resolve a deadlock here is that it is impossible to decide from the edit history who if anyone has decided not to add an infobox, as opposed to lots of editors who have not added one. (I for example mostly don't bother to add infoboxen but have not so far objected if someone else does so). I guess if someone adds a comment saying "<!-- please do not add an infobox to this article -->" that could determine the current-consensus state for subsequent revisions (my addition of a similar comment to an article where an editor had refused to accept {{authority control}} was welcomed). A talk section added at the time explaining why it is not considered appropriate for a particular article would also be helpful. --Mirokado (talk) 12:13, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

  Comment: Huh? Adding a "please do not an an infobox" HTML comment would tell no one anything about consensus, only about the controlling urges of whoever added that comment. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 22:55, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose As pointed out a number of times above, this would amount to a ban on adding infoboxes to anything but stubs. Let's extend this to tables. Tables are optional. If tablelessnesss is a style and the first major contributor didn't add one, then thou shalt never add a table. Pictures are optional ... JIMp _talk·cont 15:04, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Agree that in the absence of policy on whether or not articles should globally have infoboxes, the decision should always be made at the individual article level, but consensus should rule the day. This wording just needlessly strengthens trenches and little empires on WP. Applying the 'first major contributor rule' is rarely the way article styles evolve where there is a healthy consensual editing environment. I see this rule invoked almost always a first line of defence of entrenched ownership; it then becomes a substitute for rational discussion and consensus-building. In any case, the absence of an infobox at the hands of the FMC does not mean she/he didn't want one. The FMCs' intentions or proclivities are often impossible to establish, and thus ought never to be used as grounds for turf wars. Even if same was possible to devine, it's no more justified for individual editors to overrule consensus because (s)he got to an article first. -- Ohconfucius  03:10, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Infoboxes should be banned entirely :) Kaldari (talk) 23:43, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Articles evolve over time. Most articles do not start off their life with an infobox, and the first major contributor often does not add an infobox. They generally get added at a later time. Besides all the problems trying to determine who was the "first major contributor", you would likely be deferring to someone who probably didn't leave the infobox out intentionally. The "first major contributor" could have wanted an infobox in the article, but didn't feel like putting the effort into making one. Or maybe he just didn't know how to add one. Or maybe he was planning on coming back later to add one. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:32, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per "first major contributor". Out of the question. --78.35.248.247 (talk) 14:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. Regardless of the discussion below about who is the "first major contributor", this isn't about who contributes first, it's about a community project where many contribute, and in many cases, subsequent contributions are both more substantial and more beneficial than the first "major" contribution. To tie any special weight to the first contributor smacks of ownership and is blatantly against both the policies and the spirit of Misplaced Pages. To recommend otherwise is something of which the proposer should be somewhat ashamed. Vertium _{and done} 16:16, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Discussion (Infoboxes)

Does anyone mind if I add a sentence about infoboxes being optional, with the usual reminder to respect the preference of the first major contributor if no consensus can be reached, per WP:STYLEVAR? I am seeing infobox wars breaking out in several places and pages needing to be protected as a result. SlimVirgin 19:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I would think infobox requirements would be set at the wikiproject level, and when there are conflicts due to multiple projects, the first-editor approach to decide which to use should take precedent. --MASEM (t) 19:27, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Neither Wikiprojects nor "first major contributors" (by whatever metric that might be argued) own articles. This is a core Misplaced Pages principle. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:33, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but in nearly any case where there are two or more options for the MOS (say: us vs uk spelling, ref style, etc. etc.) our MOS defaults to the first editor's preference with consensus discussion to change later unless it is totally and obviously wrong (eg using US spelling in an article about Buckingham Palace). It's a standard resolution that works well in the other parts of MOS, and should be fine here. --MASEM (t) 14:53, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Masem with a proviso - if the project has a MOS subset, such as WP:MOSLAW or WP:MILMOS then it should take precedence over projects that do not have an MOS subset. Other than that, I'm fine with the first editor approach for any conflicts. I am opposed to them becoming optional in all cases. I disagree with Andy in part, in that I do not see that setting MOS standards cause ownership of an article. GregJackP Boomer! 19:41, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Where did I say that "setting MOS standards cause ownership of an article"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:52, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

You did not say that, I said that. You said that "neither "Wikiprojects nor first major contributors ... own articles." I replied that having MOS standards, such as the one proposed by Masem and endorsed by me, would not cause ownership of articles. GregJackP Boomer! 20:11, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

The current guideline is at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Using infoboxes in articles. DrKiernan (talk) 19:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, DrKiernan. So it would just be a question of adding the usual wording, per STYLEVAR/ENGVAR/CITEVAR, about deferring to the first major contributor where consensus cannot be reached. SlimVirgin 21:30, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

And is perfectly adequate (even if it doesn't give as much weight in favour of infoboxes as I would like it to). The problem is with people not respecting that, and not respecting consensus. The proposal above doesn't address that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:55, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Object; infoboxes are good and useful, and all the deference to first major contributor is thinly masked OWNership by vested contributors. And Wikiproject's don't own anything, either. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 19:50, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know that I agree - it is only if there is no consensus that it defaults to the original language. That doesn't imply ownership, it merely means that if there is not consensus to change something, it is left as is. GregJackP Boomer! 20:11, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

(You know me, Greg; Jack Merridew;)

There's years of evidence that first major contributor is used as ownership. We have WP:BOLD, we don't need consensus to change things, we're supposed to. Too many people focus on the R in WP:BRD; they love tripping the bold up. The net effect of their approach is that major topics that were begun years ago, are often stuck in the norms of years ago. They retard articles. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 23:35, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I oppose WikiProject control here. The official guideline on WikiProject advice pages has given infobox wars as an example of what WikiProjects may not demand for articles within their scope for several years now. It is not good for a group of editors to descend on an article and tell the people who did all the work that they must/mustn't have an infobox, because we're a group of editors who called ourselves a WikiProject, and you're just a group of editors who wrote the article. (WikiProject, by official definition, means "group of editors who want to work together".)

The problem of conflicting advice is not trivial: not only do groups of editors differ in their preferences, they differ in which infoboxes they use. WP Chemistry and WP Pharmacology don't use the same infoboxes, but they do support many of the same articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:09, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing Look at what you wrote: "tell the people who did all the work that they must/mustn't have an infobox". This is classic evocation of ownership. However much work a group of editors did, they don't own the article any more than a WikiProject does. However, a well-supported WikiProject has the advantage that it can set cross-article standards, whereas a group of editors who worked on an article are less likely to. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Well said and exactly right. It isn't "control" - it is setting standards. GregJackP Boomer! 14:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Any well-supported group of editors can set cross-article standards. The way you do that is by making a WP:PROPOSAL to the community, and either we adopt your standards or we don't.

What you don't do is get a little group of friends together, name yourself "WikiProject Something", write down your advice, and then pretend that the advice of your little group has to be followed, or even respected, by anyone at all. The community, not little self-appointed fragments of it, is in charge of actual cross-article standards. Any group or individual can put their ideas or preferences forward, but no small group or individual can demand that their preferences be followed.

The actual cross-article standard for infoboxes is articulated at MOS:INFOBOX, and it says that you can do whatever you want. They're never required (even if some group of editors says they are required for some type of article) and they are never prohibited (even if some group of editors says they are prohibited for some type of article). WP:Advice pages specifically says that groups of editors who have decided to call themselves a "WikiProject" get no special say in the matter. Both of these are official, community-adopted guidelines, not just essays made up by a small group of editors.

There are solid practical reasons behind this. Many articles are tagged by multiple groups. We do not want to be in the untenable position of simultaneously requiring and prohibiting an infobox on the same articles. We commonly add infoboxes to articles about chemists. We commonly do not add any infoboxes to articles about classical music composers. And guess what? Alexander Borodin is both, in equal parts. Hildegard of Bingen was a prolific medieval composer—so no infobox, if all that matters is the opinion of the composer's WikiProject—but she was also an abbess and author, so other WikiProjects say the opposite. Albert Schweitzer was both musician and physician, among other things, and the WikiProjects make opposite recommendations. Boris Vian was author, performer, musician, and engineer. You cannot simultaneously allow all of the relevant WikiProjects have their way. It's not actually possible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Are there advantages or disadvantages to infobox? I started two different BLPs. The first article, someone came and put an infobox on, but it doesn't show anywhere on the page. I added a question about it to the infobox, but no answer. I don't know what it does or if I should delete it. The second article, I found an infobox I liked on another biography and copy/pasted it to the new one. How do I know if that was the right infobox, or if the article would be better without one? There is little guidance anywhere about these infoboxes. Neotarf (talk) 21:11, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

There are two main advantages to Infoboxes; first, they give a handy summary, in a semi-standardised format, of the key points and data in an article, for the benefit of our readers. Secondly, they emit that data as machine-readable metadata, understandable by scripts and computers, to allow it to more easily be reused elsewhere. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:57, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

The main disadvantage is that a decent implementation may be impossible. They often contain no more information than you would get from the first paragraph. They can reduce complex, nuanced issues down to a thoroughly misleading word or two. They provoke disputes between the "completists" (if the field exists, then we should fill it in) and "selectivists" (let's only put the most important information in the infobox). When they aren't completely redundant, they're often inadequately sourced. WP:DISINFOBOX has more information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:11, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

No; WP:DISINFOBOX has mostly FUD. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

No, WP:DISINFOBOX is absolutely right. Recently I found three fields in an infobox to be absolutely wrong. No one questioned them because they were in an infobox, and they didn't require a source because they were in an infobox and when I take the page off my watchlist anyone can change them. But that's all irrelevant to what SV has proposed here. This page is a mess now and it's hard to find where to support or oppose her proposal. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:30, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I did set up a separate section for "support/oppose," with comments from this section copied above, but Andy kept reverting me. I will set up a new, empty one. Otherwise it will be impossible for the closer to read the consensus. SlimVirgin 22:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

You assert that "No one questioned them because they were in an infobox"; you offer no evidence to support that assertion. Your claim that "they didn't require a source because they were in an infobox" is bogus. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

"Disinfobox", heh. "...for their apparent professional visual appeal". Yes, yes. Useful when you don't have that much information on a subject, and don't want the article to look so much like a stub. :) I have seen infoboxes both footnoted and not, but no indication in policy if the material in the box needs to be sourced, especially if it is presumably sourced in the article. And what do you do if someone who has no interest in the subject whatsoever drops an infobox onto the article, and none of the info is available. Neotarf (talk) 10:12, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Do you have an expame of an infobox used where none of the information is available? I'll wager not. They may indeed be useful to hypothetically niaive editor in your contrived scenario, but that's not why they exist, nor one of their several and significant benefits. Do you have any other straw men you'd like to invoke? (How we might - telepathically? - determine that an editor has "has no interest in the subject whatsoever" of an article they've just edited is left as an exercise for the reader.) Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:07, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

It's very rude of you to assume that I am lying. Neotarf (talk) 22:28, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Its extremely rude, not to say unacceptable, of you to falsely assert that I assume that you are lying. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

If you are going to continue to make accusations about my conduct and good faith, i.e. "contrived scenario" and so forth, this is not the place for it. Take it to my talk page. Neotarf (talk) 00:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Note: I have again undone SlimVirgin's duplication of parts of this section (she reverted me the first time I did so). I object to my comments, and others', some of which I had replied to, being shown out-of-context; especially (but not only) when done above the original discussion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:47, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

The RfC tag goes at the top of the discussion, not at the end of it. Please don't move it again, Andy. SlimVirgin 22:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

First major contributor

Martin, regarding who counts as the first major contributor, the idea is to model this on WP:CITEVAR, which resolves disputes about which citation style to use. What happens there is that, when editors can't agree or reach a compromise, people look through the contribs to find the first major contributor who used a consistent style (the first person to make substantive edits who decided to use one style over another, and who did so consistently). Determining who this is may sound tricky in theory, but in reality I've never known a case where it wasn't obvious. And remember that this is only used where editors are falling out over citations. It's just a way to end disputes.

In the case of a dispute about an infobox (where no compromise can be reached, such as choosing a different infobox, or adding or removing certain parameters), you would look to see which one editor, or series of editors, had done most to advance the article to the state it was in when the dispute began, and you would abide by whatever decision they had made about an infobox. Yes, you're right that this tends toward conservatism, in that the status quo ante is the position that's given priority. But that has worked well with CITEVAR and other style issues, in that it discourages prolonged disputes about style issues which – if not discouraged – can end up being pursued from article to article. SlimVirgin 19:24, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Slim, articles are improved by editors making changes and the use of CITEVAR is merely a mechanism to stultify improvements. It ends disputes by appealing to ownership of articles and that is bad for the encyclopedia. No editor should be given a weapon to override reasoned consensus on an article's talkpage about any optional part of our content. ENGVAR has a series of priorities for deciding on the style of English used and deferring to the first major contributor is merely the tie-breaker in the event that the more rational factors do not apply. CITEVAR on the other hand makes no consideration of the advantages or disadvantages of having a given citation format. Hand-written citations are not a "style". Harvard is a style; Vancouver is a style; APA and Chicago are styles; and yet many articles are prevented from adopting the ease of maintenance, consistency of presentation, and improved reusability that templates can afford. Only the largest of articles display the downside of templates, yet vast numbers of small articles are left with broken references and non-working links because of the dead-hand of the "first major contributor". This proposal is a further attempt to impose a technophobic fossilisation on articles - particularly as all articles start off without an infobox, which gives a kind of 'first-mover' advantage to those who want to remove all infoboxes but can't articulate a reasonable argument to support their prejudice. --RexxS (talk) 19:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

RexxS, you left out MLA style, and it really makes not a bit of difference whether the style is achieved via a template (we don't happen to have any that adhere to MLA) or by handwriting. The viewers see the output. Templates are useful for data mining. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Rexxs, people aren't going around removing infoboxes so far as I know. In all the cases I've seen, people are arriving to impose them on articles they haven't edited before, and then start reverting when challenged. I like infoboxes, and I also add them to articles I haven't edited before. In several years of doing this, I've only been challenged three times, and in each case I backed off, not because I was acknowledging someone else's OWNership, but because I respected that someone else had written the article, and they had formed an educated view about the content problems an infobox might cause (e.g. because of complicated biographical issues), or had formed a view about the aesthetics that I was willing to respect.

Three times in several years indicates that this is not a major issue. It's just that, when it does become an issue, we currently have no way of resolving it (except by people turning up to vote for their overall preferred position, which turns it into a numbers game). This proposal – that this is a style issue that should be handled like any other – would offer a resolution in the small number of cases where no compromise can be reached. SlimVirgin 20:58, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

You're mistaken. Editors allied to the classical music/ opera projects systematically remove - and presume to issue bogus instructions against re-adding - infoboxes. This is in direct contravention of the outcome of an RfC which they instigated. Recently, another editor has taken it upon herself to purge infoboxes for a significant number of articles, usually obfuscating with two-or-three letter edit summaries such as "rm" and "org". Your suggestion that Misplaced Pages does not have a method of resolving content disputes is a curious one; though there is an issue that some small but vocal groups of editors reuse to use that process or abide by its outcomes. It is naive in the extreme for you to assume that your proposed remedy would not be abused by such people in an attempt to enforce the removal of infoboxes from significant sections of Misplaced Pages. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Andy, I'm not familiar with the classical music wikiproject issues; if you have a link that would be helpful. We could add an explicit caveat to this proposal that people should not go around adding or removing infoboxes across the board, per WP:STYLEVAR and per the ArbCom (see the footnote in the STYLEVAR link for reference to the cases that formed the principle): "Where more than one style is acceptable, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a substantial reason. Revert-warring over optional styles is unacceptable." SlimVirgin 21:34, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC. Infobox use is not merely a matter of style. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

This proposal would prevent WikiProjects from ruling that articles within their scope must or must not have infoboxes. That is, if someone were to create an article about a composer and were to add an infobox, no one could remove it on the grounds that one of the projects interested in that article had decided against infoboxes. The decision about an infobox would always be made at the individual article/editor level. SlimVirgin 23:11, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Your second sentence does not guarantee your first. The current situation is already that the decision about an infobox is made at the individual article level; your proposal is thus, at best, redundant. Giving article creators control of the future development of articles would be contrary to core Misplaced Pages policy; and would be a monumentally stupid thing to do. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Everyone can't be in control here, not the people who want to remove the boxes, or the people who want to add them, or a WikiProject that has placed the article within its scope. It's an either/or thing at the moment: we either have a box or we don't. Perhaps in future someone will create an option whereby readers can choose to see or hide infoboxes, or perhaps we should create a template for a completely collapsed infobox. But for now, we need a mechanism to decide in those rare cases where no compromise can be found by refining a box's parameters.

The most obvious mechanism is to prioritize the status quo ante. That will sometimes mean the box is retained and sometimes removed. As more people who like boxes create articles, they will become the first major contributors and the status quo ante will increasingly mean the box stays. SlimVirgin 00:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Collapsed has already been tried, and widely detested: see the disaster that was Ponte Vecchio for 3 years, because everyone got completely burnt out discussing it (80% of that talkpage is about the infobox), until some IP finally came along and fixed it per the very relevant MOS:COLLAPSE. It's an wp:accessibility problem at the least, and a hindrance/overcomplication at best. —Quiddity (talk) 00:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Truthkeeper, I missed out Bluebook as well, but it was never intended to be an exhaustive list. To the point: it actually makes the world of difference whether a citation is achieved by hand or by template. The latter guarantee a consistent style; can be checked and updated much more easily by bot or script; and can emit metadata, which (although you can't see it) can be used by re-users like Google to pick up important facts. It is a mistake to assume that just because two options look the same, they are identical.

Slim, I think you'll find that infoboxes are being removed sometimes without even the courtesy of an explanation in the edit summary. I am very disappointed at such behaviour from colleagues who really could do much better and engage in a proper discussion. I hope I'm not an unreasonable editor and I'm willing to accept that some articles are not best served by infoboxes, but I'm unhappy that the issues are not being explored. You are quite right, of course, to defend the principle of decisions being made at article level. Given goodwill between the editors discussing, I believe this still represents the fundamental 'wiki-way' of finding a consensus. I honestly don't think that STYLEVAR actually helps that process, as any mechanism that uses a rather arbitrary factor to favour one side or another denies the very principle of looking for common ground when seeking a consensus. --RexxS (talk) 00:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it's always better to find common ground. I also think that just about every objection to infoboxes can be addressed by refining the parameters, and by finding ways to express key points succinctly. Editors who oppose infoboxes may not realize that you can use the generic {{Infobox}}, and create your own headers and parameters. Having said that, I still wouldn't want to see editors who had put a lot of work into an article forced to accept them by sheer weight of numbers. SlimVirgin 00:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Classical music

@Andy: The classical composers project DOES have and use an infobox, called {{Infobox classical composer}}. The RfC you link to is where it came from. You've tried to delete it 4 times, including once by replacing , remaining uses with {{infobox person}} and then claiming it was "unused" at both of the TFDs, plus reverting editors that try to use it. Plus two 1-month older removals, in the same way. How many times have you replaced it before?

Instead of complaining about it "losing valuable data" abstractly, and ignoring legitimate objective objections, I strongly suggest you read the section Template:Infobox classical composer#Fields that are specifically excluded, and try to understand the perspective of the many editors that agree with those summaries. Then start a clear and non-confrontational discussion on the talkpage, suggesting additions/changes that you believe would be both widely-applicable, and unlikely to result in misinformation being added to unwatchlisted-articles.

We're trying to inch the discussion forward, over time, solving each of the objections slowly and carefully. It'd be really great if you'd stop shooting us in the foot. —Quiddity (talk) 00:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Again, though, if someone were to create an article about a composer, and were to add a non-minimalist box, that would take priority. This is why I feel the "first major contributor" rule is the only one that's going to work, because it's an entirely "blind" process. SlimVirgin 00:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed it is a blind process - although not a neutral one because of the starting point. I would not object to the idea of "FMC" if it were to be to be used to reach a decision when all other options have failed to reach consensus, but I fear that in reality the side that FMC favours would simply use it as their starting point in discussion, ignoring reasoned argument from the opposite viewpoint. In that case it becomes the antithesis of a tool for finding consensus; without some means of ensuring that it is to be treated as a tie-breaker, not a trump card, I remain convinced that including it here is not helpful in improving the encyclopedia. --RexxS (talk) 10:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I have to side with Whatamidoing, RexxS and others raising concerns about the "first major contributor" clause, but also about wikiproject dictatorialism, which the first half of this proposal does appropriately address. We (meaning the WP community in general, but also MoS gnomes more specifically) have let WikiProjects run roughshod over the principles of Misplaced Pages for far too long, and to a terrible extent. The level of WP:OWN nonsense out of these things is worsening by the day. And I say that as someone who has started wikiprojects myself and finds them useful when they are not operated like little dictatorial fiefdoms. That said, I'm entirely sure that "whatever I did first is the rule, and I was the first major article, so everyone else can just go jump off a bridge" is not a good model for how to go about this. We don't normally form consensus this way, so I can't support this proposal. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 15:52, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The only time members of that project use "their" infobox (which was recreated out-of-process after being properly deleted) is to replace a better one, in order to deny editors the ability to use the latter's parameters (and we've already discussed this, recently; I pointed out that you were duped into creating it for them). I can provide evidence of this if you doubt that; can you provide evidence of the infobox being used by the project's active members, in other circumstances? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The fact that they're using an infobox at all, is good.

As stated, there are rational reasons to exclude certain parameters that continually get misused (#Fields that are specifically excluded). You always just skip over those parts, in discussions.

I was not "duped" into helping them come to a solution, as you keep saying, and it's rude to assume or state that I was. I'm fully aware that it is "incomplete" or "imperfect" from your perspective.

There are a mixture of humans here, and as WhatamIdoing explained very clearly above, the disagreement between "the 'completists' (if the field exists, then we should fill it in) and 'selectivists' (let's only put the most important information in the infobox)" is not simple.

Yes, I have seen that most of the current uses were added by Mishae and Magnus; and Yes, I'd be very happy to see diffs where the project-members are actively implementing the template. Most of us think it is a good thing, if they're willingly using an infobox. It certainly displays more adaptability and open-mindedness than your own actions I value their adaptable and open-minded attitude. —Quiddity (talk) 21:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

It's all very well and good to have some recommendations that standardize the use of boxes for specific topics, especially if there are enough experienced editors on a topic to reach a consensus, but my understanding is that most content is created by new users. Can't some guidance be provided for us? Maybe not on the level of MoS, but more of a recommendation or tutorial thing. Really, there are other users with even fewer edits than I have who go around templating stuff that I have no idea what it is. Wouldn't it be best for the person who wants to use the box to source the information to put in it? And is there a minimum amount of information needed on the box? For instance, I have found very little about Abdullah al-Hamid, other than his full name and his age on a particular date, still, I like the box, especially since there's no photo yet. And what about sourcing? I have seen boxes with ref markers; it looks cluttered, but is it a good practice for other reasons?

Also, there is something called a persondata; not sure if it is covered by this part of MoS.

Neotarf (talk) 23:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Infoboxes are only useful if uniform, and uniformly used. Projects may need special features, but as much as possible should be standardized. ENVAR is not a parallel case--in that matter, there were several equally good standards and choosing one or the other is necessary. This is a case where we either have a standard, or total inconsistency. As Misplaced Pages matures we need a way to provide formally formatted data. Personally I wish we had never chosen this particular obtrusive and unsightly way of doing it, but if we use it at all, it should be used systematically. Perhaps The Wikidata project will find a better technique. DGG ( talk ) 23:52, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

This might also be a good place to remind participants of the template at the top of the page, and that the MoS pages are subject to Arbitration Committee discretionary sanctions. See this remedy which includes the reminder " All parties are reminded to avoid personalizing disputes concerning the Manual of Style, the article titles policy ('WP:TITLE'), and similar policy and guideline pages, and to work collegially towards a workable consensus."

Neotarf (talk) 23:53, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

To clarify why my vote above - editors should have a choice concerning the use of infoboxes. I oppose mandatory use and I also oppose giving the decision to first users as in WP:ENGVAR. However respect and deference should be accorded editors who create hundreds of edits to an article and who render an opinion - weight should be given to those opinions...Modernist (talk) 00:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Quidity: You claim that "that they're using an infobox at all, is good"; event though they are not using an infobox, other than as a tool to remove better infoboxes. That is far from good. I invited you to provide an example of them using it in a positive manner; you have failed to do so. I addressed your "Fields that are specifically excluded" point ("in order to deny editors the ability to use the parameters"), but, for clarity, those edge cases are being used to prevent the inclusion of valid, cited and relevant information, such as that Terry Riley (you cite me reverting its replacement, above), whose lede says he was "intrinsically associated with the minimalist school", wrote minimalist music; that the man we say is "currently performing... as a solo pianist" plays piano; hides his own website (readers are invited to compare the infobox before and after its emasculation; above) and removes the fact that he is a composer. That's a disservice to our readers, and harmful to the project. That and similar examples are evidence enough that your naive good faith in creating the template was abused. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:09, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Time to close

There's much opposition, well-reasoned at that, to this proposal. Tome to close it? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:31, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but see below. This proposal has obviously failed, yet the underlying issue remains unresolved. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 22:55, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Any objection to simply removing the RfC tag without formally closing the RfC? The presence of open RfC's has precluded archiving this page. It it is removed, archiving can resume, and previous discussion on this topic can as always be found in the archives. Apteva (talk) 20:53, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Resolving the underlying infobox "ownership" issue

The fact that "first major contributor gets to arbitrarily decided" idea proposed above isn't workable is only half the problem here, and not the root one. The other, which this proposal also tried to address, is that wikiprojects by and large do appear to believe that they have the authority to tell the entire editorship "thou must" or "thou shalt not" put an infobox on any article We the Project consider within our Holy Scope. They need to be rapidly and unmistakably disabused of this notion before this situation gets any worse. So, the underlying issue this proposal tried to address is a real problem and remains unaddressed with this proposal's failure (because it reached too far in the opposite direction).

I propose that we add a statement to the effect that no editor or group of editors can force this issue, and that it's up to a consensus of the editors at the article, on a per-article basis, just like almost all other editorial decisions on Misplaced Pages.

(PS: I rather wish we'd scrap the entire WikiProject system and replace it with something that forbids any kind of "club"-like model - no "members" or "participants", no "projects", just pages of recommendations arrived at by a consensus of editors who care, on how to address particular topics. But that's another issue for another time and place.)

— SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 22:55, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide links to places where this has happened? (I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested in reading what the debate looked like in those instances.) Tdslk (talk) 00:54, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

See Classical music, and preceding comments in First major contributor, above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:17, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

We already have WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. A link to that should suffice; though the problem is not that we don't have a policy, but that some editors are allowed to ignore it, for the sake of a quiet life. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:22, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

The rule you want already exists, or nearly does: "If discussion cannot determine which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor." The first choice is a consensus of editors at the individual article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I was asked to comment again. That is not the consensus. The consensus that is followed in practice in WP is that once it is decided to use infoboxes on a particular type of article then the decision stands until consensus changes, and affects every article in scope. It does not go article by article. In particular, there is general consensus throughout WP to use infoboxes for people in as standardized and generalized a way as possible across all the relevant wikiprojects; that nobody is compelled to make such an infobox when writing an article, but that if they do not, someone will add it. (I understood the original proposal here to be challenging that, and I understand that challenge to be rejected. If the wording of the MOS needs to be changed to make it clear that they are not optional, I make such a proposal.) DGG ( talk ) 15:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thats way off - I hope others dont see things this way as conflict will only issue - Wiki projects don't own articles in anyway and it does go article by article as seen at Using infoboxes in articles. We have tried to fix this ownership problem many times over the years, but still have statements like "should not be used without first obtaining consensus on the article's talk page" that is a clear violation of our Editing policy and Be bold. To think our editor will see some odd WP advice page before they edit is just crazy and has lead to many many conflicts.Moxy (talk) 17:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention in-article comments instructing people not to use infoboxes, which are a blatant defiance of the outcome of the RfC called by members of that project in a vain attempt to enforce their preference. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:08, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Quote - "Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article". There seems to be a drive here that all articles must have infoboxes, and that the editors of an article or members of wikiprojects have no say whatsoever about what the content or format of infoboxes, which people here appear to want to be set centrally as part of MOS and be immune from all challenge. Why should MOS (effectively a Wikiproject itself) have supremacy and be allowed to dictate things if no-one else is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nigel Ish (talk • contribs) 18:32, 22 September 2012‎

Quote =Nigel Ish "a drive here that all articles must have infoboxes" and "the editors of an article or members of wikiprojects have no say whatsoever about what the content or format of infoboxes" - All that would be the opposite of what the policy says that you have just quoted. All content and format disputes should be discussed at the individual article level first - then proceed to outside the article if not resolvable at the article level. No blanket rules by a group of editors should prevail over talking about what is best for each article at each article!Moxy (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The quote is what the guidance currently says - the following comments are my take on what the regulars here appear to be doing in trying to force a Misplaced Pages wide standard for infoboxes onto all articles, with the appearance of trying to override any objections either at the article and ignore any issues that wikiprojects raise, whether based on valid subject related reasons or not.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh sorry that was not clear to me.... but yes you are correct that the majority think infoboxes are beneficial thus an asset to our readers.Moxy (talk) 20:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Embedding foreign terms and names (like names with diacritics) in English Misplaced Pages

Not many editors seem to be aware of the Misplaced Pages guidelines for embedding foreign words and names in English Misplaced Pages; these guidelines are for web accessibility reasons. For an explanation, please see my essay here. I propose that a caution, and a link to these guidelines, be added to Misplaced Pages:MOS#Foreign terms or to a more appropriate section of MoS. LittleBen (talk) 11:46, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

And as has been pointed out to you in the past, its not that people are unaware, its that people don't agree with you that names with diacritics are Non-English. -DJSasso (talk) 12:00, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

A bit of both perhaps. They are some articles with large chunks of none English text without use of {{lang}} or similar. Regards, Sun Creator 12:17, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

For example:

• "successful actor and director, Noël Coward has had a significant impact" from the article Cultural impact of Noël Coward is English, but,
• "Deux enfants royaux dans véritable amour ont été séparés largement et profondément" from De Wilhelmus, is not English. Regards, Sun Creator 12:57, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

• Sun Creator: Many thanks! I'm doing an impartial study of the effects of diacritics in article titles and would greatly appreciate knowing of any popular pages that use diacritics in the article title and body.
• There's a parallel discussion about language templates here. LittleBen (talk) 13:12, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

If you want to find articles with foreign language text try searching with quotes for the following "et a", "para a", "volta a", "an der" "an die", "an den", "es a". Regards, Sun Creator 16:30, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the quote should be wrapped in the template. Its the names that I don't believe should be and that is what he is really trying to argue here. -DJSasso (talk) 13:37, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

One should perhaps distinguish between "foreign text" and "foreign terms". Foreign terms (as opposed to names of foreign entities and words of foreign origin) are usually written in italics. --Boson (talk) 13:57, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Standard English words like resume (think job applications) and naive are both properly written with characters not common in English. The presence of accent marks or umlauts does not, by itself, make the word non-English. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:03, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Please also remember that "foreign" and "non-English" are distinct concepts. The former has no real place on Misplaced Pages, which is wp:WORLDWIDE both in content scope and in readership. That said, many diacritic-using article titles are of course related to specific countries with major languages that use such diacritics. To find examples of "popular" pages, consider looking at national categories such as Category:Top-importance Finland articles, Category:Top-importance Serbia articles, Category:Top-importance France articles, etc. Of course the equivalent "High-importance" article categories are much more populus. LeadSongDog come howl! 22:04, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

• Very helpful, much appreciated. LittleBen (talk) 02:12, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Non-English words and phrases are entirely appropriate to the English encyclopedia. Consider Post hoc ergo propter hoc or Ad hominem: they are not English, and they are important articles. Similarly, the English Misplaced Pages properly contains thousands of lines of poetry, lyrics, and quotations that aren't in English. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:25, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

• As discussed here, no major book publisher would use complex diacritics or foreign languages in book titles—except for widely-known words or names. The same argument surely applies to article titles. LittleBen (talk) 05:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The parallel discussion just got closed here]. How often do we have to go over the same arguments? Agathoclea (talk) 13:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

• The trend everywhere is towards simplicity and usability—particularly in book titles, film titles, and article titles. In Mainland China "simplified Chinese" was created to make the language more accessible to the majority.
• Britannica apparently uses macrons in romanized Japanese names like Tokyo and Osaka—no respectable publisher does that nowadays, but it would probably cost Britannica too much money to bring their style into this century. Local English newspapers and websites represent current majority usage; limited-edition vanity academic publishers cannot afford to keep reference materials up to date with the real world. LittleBen (talk) 15:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

You again conflate non-latin scripts with diacritics. These are two totally seperate issues. Also you are saying that tabloid sources are more relevant than accademic? That throws our quest for knowledge out of the window and replaces with trash. Agathoclea (talk) 17:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

RFC:Largest cities or city population templates

There is a Request for comment about the utility/redundancy of Largest cities/city population templates. This is an open invitation for participating in the request for comment on Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/City population templates. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. Mrt3366 08:04, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Number signs

The section currently reads

Instead use the word "number", or the abbreviation "No."

While the examples is only No.. I would like to suggest two things. It seems that on most music articles that No. is the preferred method. Can we please get rid of "number" or at least suggest it's not preferred? Secondly, there have been a few editors who have been adding a non-breaking space between the "No." and the following number.

Also, could we clarify that if, when using "number", and the digit is less than 10, that the number should be spelled-out? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

That is already there, below, under Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Numbers. A see also could be added from Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Number signs. Some web users do not like internal links (when they click on a link they expect it to take them to a different page, not somewhere else on the same page}. Apteva (talk) 04:42, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Request for scrutiny and feedback

I've brought a new writing and editing tutorial to the stage where it could do with some feedback. I wonder whether editors would mind taking a look and either directly editing or commenting on the talk page: Spot the ambiguity.

Apart from identifying glitches, I'd like to know whether the tone and structure of the exercises are optimal. Are the explanations too wordy? And is this a useful angle to take in helping writers to improve their article editing skills? There are many more examples I could add, but perhaps already the 19 exercises need to sectionalised into groups of six or seven to encourage users to work through the page in a number of visits. I chose to mix up the types of ambiguity rather than to systematically concentrate on one at a time (e.g., lexical, punctuation, unclear referents, word order). Thank you. Tony (talk) 12:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

My main criticism is that there is a limit to how much verbiage should be devoted to clarifying every possible ambiguity, which is relevant because some of these ambiguities are far-fetched. Churchill said "We shall never surrender." He didn't say "'We' means all of you, not just me and my dog. And 'all of you' means all Britons, not just all of you here. Well, not all Britons; we do have some traitors. I mean we won't surrender as a group. Oops, make that the British Empire, not just Britons. And 'never' doesn't really mean never; in a thousand years it may be honorable to surrender to an overwhelming alien invasion. It means we won't surrender to Hitler. Um, or Mussolini, or Hirohito. Um, or their successors. In the near future anyway (I'm not anticipating 21st-century neo-Nazis). And it doesn't mean there won't be surrenders like the Battle of Singapore. And it doesn't mean we won't surrender to a seductress ..."

I wouldn't segregate the examples by ambiguity type. No specialized training is required to determine why any of the examples might be considered ambiguous; the reasoning is plain enough after clicking the answer. So I think the examples should be like real life, where you don't know what type of ambiguity is likely to occur next.

More detailed criticism is on the talk page. Art LaPella (talk) 21:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Verbiage ... ok, I guess it's crap. Tony (talk) 08:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. I think Tony deserves our thanks and our encouragement for his sustained efforts. Those tutorials are a largely untold success story. They have been very well received in the past, and deserve wider promotion. Quite an innovation, contrasting with some of the nay-saying and nihilism we observe on the topic of Misplaced Pages style.
Congratulations Tony! Please continue, and please don't hesitate to ask for input at this talkpage, even if the appreciation is not always made explicit.
Noetica 08:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

O, I meant to add that Art's work on WP:SMOS is surely appreciated also. We should not let that initiative fall away. I want to return to the problem of multiple links to the same large MOS page, in many instances. I've been developing an idea about transclusion, but I have been busy and not felt on top of the technical issues yet. All in good time.
Noetica 09:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Diaspora capitalisation

I started a discussion on the page talk:Jewish diaspora because I think that the word "Diaspora" should always be capitalised when referring to the Jewish Diaspora. If you use "the Diaspora" it is understood to be in reference to the Jewish Diaspora, so in that case "the Diaspora" is a proper noun referring to the Jewish Diaspora. In all other cases, such as with "African diaspora," "diaspora" is simply a regular noun. I've looked through style manuals and can't find anyone saying that it should be capitalised in this case, but it seems to be common practice if you search for "Jewish Diaspora." Wondering if we could make a clear call on this. It would be helpful for sticklers like me. Anyone care to weigh in? —Zujine|talk 01:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Google Ngrams doesn't show much preference either way in recent times. Art LaPella (talk) 03:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Art, it is almost always preferable to reduce contamination by title case in ngram investigations. Yours on "Jewish Diaspora,Jewish diaspora" does not achieve that. This one does better: "Jewish Diaspora is,Jewish diaspora is". There would still be headings with that "is" in them, so we can assume that the predominance of lower case is a little higher than indicated by these ngrams.

I will not join in that discussion, as a matter of personal preference these days. But I make two observations, apart from the above:

• People need to be far more careful with talk of proper nouns and proper names. (Editors might learn from the greatly reformed article Proper noun, which needs just a little more work and a move to Proper name.)
• The strong representation, indeed the majority presence, of lower case "Jewish diaspora" in sources is decisive under WP:MOSCAPS for denial of any requested move to Jewish Diaspora, if it comes to that.

♫♪

Noetica 05:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Noetica, and go further and suggest that Misplaced Pages, per WP:NOT#SOAPBOX, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, etc., must consistently resist attempts by special interest groups of any kind to capitalize everything relating to them as if somehow magically special. It's irrational, elitist and not helpful to our readers. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 02:25, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Right, like "The Beatles" in running prose. Too much reliance on the magic of capitalization. Binksternet (talk) 03:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Exactly! ~ GabeMc 03:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Just thought I'd bring it up. I noticed that "diaspora" was improperly capitalised in many articles, which led me to look up the rules regarding the unique case of Jewish Diaspora (ahem, diaspora, excuse me). Thanks for weighing in. —Zujine|talk 06:34, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Beatles RfC

You are invited to participate in an RfC at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles on the issue of capitalising the definite article when mentioning that band's name in running prose. This long-standing dispute is the subject of an open mediation case and we are requesting your help with determining the current community consensus. Thank you for your time. For the mediators. ~ GabeMc 03:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Relaunching that discussion again is blatant WP:FORUMSHOPping. The debate has nothing to do with he Beatles in particular, and is a general MoS issue about whether to change the official names of things that begin "The" to lower-case "the" in mid-sentence just to make the grammar seem better to some people. The discussion should be had here, if it needs to be had yet again at all, which is doubtful. WP:NOT#SOAPBOX and WP:NOR effectively forbid falsification of facts to satisfy pseudo-grammatical whims. This is distinct from WP:TRADEMARK problems, like trying to replicate the all-lower-case font and star-in-place-of-apostrophe styling of the official "Macy's" logo. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 02:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The involved editors wish to get the widest possible word out so that the most people can respond and the issue laid to rest with finality. Thus the spamming of notices that brings you to complain. Of course, pointing the reader back to a central discussion page cannot be forum shopping since the forum is not being changed.

Your stance does not conform to the majority of published style guidelines such as Chicago Manual of Style which recommends lower case "the" Beatles in running prose, and also recommends lower case non-italics "the" New York Times in running prose, even though the trademarked name of that newspaper is The New York Times, with the "the" in italics and capitalized.

There is nothing here about "pseudo-grammatical whims"; there is simply a serious and far-reaching style matter to solve.

Making the "grammar seem better to some people" is not the point; the point is to streamline Misplaced Pages practices to conform to the majority of published style guides. Binksternet (talk) 03:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the point is to make Misplaced Pages correct. Capitalizing "the" mid-sentence is an aggrandizing move. Misplaced Pages doesn't need to do other people's advertising for them. They're "the Beatles," even if whoever designed their official website was either ignorant about correct capitalization or just feeling pretentious. Almost every reputable style guide uses a lowercase T. We should do the same, not make up our own rules. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree, and FTR, their official website has a mixed usage, not caps throughout. In fact, of their 12 album summaries at least 6 of them use lower-case. ~ GabeMc 04:37, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Trans women once again

Please don't confuse this with anything similar but different.

WP:MOS says that trans women should be referred to with she/her throughout (except in direct quotes, of course.)

However, it looks like (in my experience of studying edits) that many Wikipedians support the rule that they should be referred to with no pronouns at all before their operation, but then we can use she/her after the operation, despite not being consistent with the above statement. Any questions about which rule is right?? Georgia guy (talk) 13:07, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Avoiding pre-op pronouns seems to be the obvious way to avoid conflict. I would support making this the MoS rule. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 02:20, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

So is it your position SMcCandlish that the MoS has got it all wrong when it comes to a definite article in band names but in most other cases we should follow the MoS? ~ GabeMc 02:27, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

No, trans women should be referred to as "she" regardless of what part of their lives is under discussion. Avoiding pronouns during discussions of their lives before the operations should be permitted but not encouraged. This way, we won't get people putting the "no-pronouns rule" before good, cohesive writing. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Not using pronouns at all is a good compromise for people with very short last names, but for people with longer names it can be cumbersome. — A. di M.  15:25, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

What A.M. said. Talking around the pronouns should be allowed where it does not interfere with good writing, but it should not be our go-to answer to this issue. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Section hatnote templates

I think section hatnote templates such as {{see also}} should be changed to section endnotes, since the information they offer is of little relevance before the reader has read the section. Please take a look at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Layout#Placement of section hatnotes, thank you. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

That's not a categorically true assumption; it varies depending on what the hatnote is and the context in question. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 02:45, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Spaced endash in dates with spaces but un-spaced in compound nouns with spaces

At WP:ENDASH, section 1 says to use an un-spaced endash for date ranges except when the dates themselves contain spaces, in which case a spaced endash is used (e.g. "1 January 1970 – 23 June 1993").

Section 2, discussing compound nouns, does not make this exception for components that contain spaces, using an un-spaced endash regardless (e.g. New York–Los Angeles).

Isn't this inconsistent? —— 04:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This was a long-argued compromise; not perfectly consistent, but not too at odds with styles used and recommended in various guides. The use of spaces in things like New York–Los Angeles is quite rare, in my impression, whereas it is less rare in dates, and there was very little push to change how we do dates. Dicklyon (talk) 05:59, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

But I don't think AlanM1 wants to change spacing; he wants to clarify the rule. Perhaps add "excluding dates" to "The en dash in all of the compounds above is unspaced." However, "above" could be interpreted to mean section 2 only, which has no dates. Art LaPella (talk) 06:30, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

No, actually I do want to add spacing in the "New York – Los Angeles" case :) This is consistent with the date usage, and looks more symmetrical to me, just like with dates. I did a quick analysis of a google search of "New York – Los Angeles" (and verified it was, as they state, the same result set as with any other separator (i.e. it ignores punctuation chars)). I copied the 561 results that were shown, trimmed the parts before and after the phrase, then removed everything that wasn't "New York" and "Los Angeles" separated by some number of spaces and dash-like characters and sorted the results. This left (unfortunately only) 115 results:

• 90 were "New York - Los Angeles"
• 22 were "New York-Los Angeles"
• 3 were other combinations/typos

There are admittedly problems with the methodology, and a more complete study might be necessary, but 90/20 does seem somewhat compelling, doesn't it?

If we use less-familiar names, I think it gets more compelling:

• "I took the Alpe d'Huez–Angoulême flight"
• "I took the Belle Île–Alpe d'Huez flight"
• "The Villefranche-de-Rouergue–Les Sables-d'Olonne–La Montagne Noire segments were completely full" (Quick – how many segments is that?!)

N'est-ce pas? :) —— 05:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

En-dash usage

Template:Formerly

At Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Airports#New RfC, someone's launched another "hyphens vs. en dashes" RfC with regard to airports, after one RfC and various requested moves have already declined to override MoS on this. Someone seems not to have noticed WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and WP:OWN. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 02:34, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest that hyphens seem to be correct for airports. I can not find anyone using en dashes. In our list of US airports all use hyphens except for Rock Springs – Sweetwater County Airport, for which the actual name is "Rock Springs Sweetwater County Airport". There are 53 U.S. hyphenated airport names. Some use en dashes, some hyphens. Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania uses a hyphen, correctly I would say. Am I missing something? Apteva (talk) 04:32, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Or are hyphens always correct for airports and Wilkes-Barre because of this advice: "Wrong: Franco–British rivalry; "Franco" is a combining form, not independent; use a hyphen: Franco-British rivalry"? Apteva (talk) 04:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The following nine U.S. airport article names use en dash:

• Aspen–Pitkin County Airport
• Charles M. Schulz – Sonoma County Airport
• Fort Lauderdale – Hollywood International Airport
• Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport
• Lewiston – Nez Perce County Airport
• Minneapolis−Saint Paul International Airport - actually uses a minus sign, not an en dash
• Reno–Tahoe International Airport - this was moved recently and the RM was probably closed incorrectly, with one support vote and insufficient information.
• Seattle–Tacoma International Airport
• Wiley Post–Will Rogers Memorial Airport

Some of the hyphens in the airport list are for old or alternate names. The remaining 28 U.S airports use hyphen. Apteva (talk) 07:00, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I do not express currently any reasoning about airport names in general, but the comparison of "Wilkes-Barre" to "Franco-British" is completely wrong because of John Wilkes and Isaac Barré. Also, Apteva's use of space-stroke-space instead of an en dash directly in this posting (which is exactly about the hyphen–dash rivalry) looks as a provoking illiteracy, which does not contribute to establishing of the consensus. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 11:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The link from "stroke" takes me to an article on hyphen-minus, yet a fifth type of dash type character. I am not aware of any airport name using a hyphen-dash (-), and I used the exact punctuation used in our article names in the list above. Some use an en dash, some a space en dash space, and all are in the list above, although now MSP also uses endash. Other than that I am not aware of using "stroke" "in this posting". Apteva (talk) 04:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

The hyphen-minus is a type of dash, really? Not more than polyvinyl chloride is a sort of wood, or laminate is something of parquetry. You think of a substitute as a variety – it's not correct. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 19:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually I was not able to reproduce the hyphen-minus, but by "dash type" I meant "hyphen or longer horizontal line used for punctuation". I thought that should have been clear from the context. So I was saying "flooring" not "wood". At least when I cut and pasted the hyphen-minus into my word processor, it came out as a hyphen. Our article on dashes points out there are more than two types of dashes using dash in the sense of "not a hyphen or minus sign but a horizontal line used for punctuation", and this guideline says that WP uses two of them. Apteva (talk) 21:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I understand you when you say "dash type character" to mean what is often called "horizontal line" on this page. But neither the dash article nor the ] uses the unmodified word "dash" to include hyphens and minus signs. I know semantic distinctions can be arbitrary, but you will definitely confuse us if you call hyphens and minus signs "dashes". Art LaPella (talk) 00:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem. Sometimes posts are very confusing, and sometimes they can be deciphered. Sometimes they remain forever a complete enigma (and yet are clearly not vandalism). Apteva (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Apteva, I don't doubt that you have good intentions; but your zeal in many forums at the same time and on a couple of style issues is getting disruptive. Please don't edit this MOS page to further your present push. I have just reverted that, and I invite others to monitor things also. This page is to serve the needs of editors maintaining 4,000,000 articles. Its provisions have generally been weighed very carefully, by editors with linguistic knowledge and a great deal of style experience.

If you have questions about hyphens and dashes – and certainly about proper nouns and proper names, on which I see you have picked up some strange folk ideas – feel free to drop in at my talkpage and we can talk it over.

☺

Noetica 11:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Isn't the relevant section this bit, at MOS:ENDASH?: "By default, follow the dominant convention that a hyphen is used in compounded proper names of single entities, not an en dash. Guinea-Bissau; Bissau is the capital, and this distinguishes the country from neighboring Guinea. McGraw-Hill, a publishing house". That seems to me to suggest we should follow the use of a hyphen where that's the official, formal name, maybe even in every case. The airport is a single entity, even if the bits that gave it the name aren't. Also, a quick scan suggests that several of the pages above that are using the endash now were moved from the hyphenated version at the end of last year, so it seems that was the stable principle in practice as well until a while ago. N-HH talk/edits 11:49, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

ps: and, as ever, this merely reinforces my view that we could save ourselves all a lot of trouble by doing what most online and many print publishers do and forgetting about the specialist use of, and distinction between, hyphens and endashes. But that's another story, and I know its use makes many people strangely happy. N-HH talk/edits 11:49, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

No, N-HH. Airports are not typical entities of that sort. The default is here overruled; and indeed practice "out there" is variable even for the same airport name. Unlike "Guinea-Bissau", say. Airport names are usually functional artificial constructions with semantic weight, more like definite descriptions than fully autonomous proper names. Contrast "McGraw-Hill", which is in a way fossilised. No one thinks of "McGraw" and "Hill" as meaningfully linked in that name. Not any more.

Your view about saving a lot of trouble by obliterating the best-practice distinction that MOS preserves is well and truly noted. Thank you for not going on about it! The community spoke on these issues last year, loud and clear. There was strong endorsement of the distinctions MOS makes, which are far from unusual or freakish. They contribute to a high-quality encyclopedia, with enhanced readability. But I don't want to go on about it!

Noetica 12:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Well I can only counter that it seems to me at least that they very much are entities of exactly that sort, and that no clear justification has been offered for any decision to simply "overrule" that default. I don't quite get the idea that an airport name derived from a combination of the names of two people or after the two places it serves is any less a "fully autonomous proper name" - whatever that might mean exactly, especially the first half - than the name of a publishing house originally founded by two different people. And at what point might "fossilisation" occur? Some airport names are very old. Some even have their names specifically referred to, in multiple sources such as this syndicated AP report - even if, I know, those sources are not academic guides to grammar and punctuation - as being "hyphenated". N-HH talk/edits 14:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The hyphenation in that article will not be based on the "correct" name, but since it is an AP story, it will be based on the AP house style. Neotarf (talk) 15:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the hyphenation itself or AP style, I'm talking about their use of the actual word hyphenation to describe the name. Something which is very common in other sources and reports too, including when quoting those involved in determining the name change. N-HH talk/edits 15:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I also noticed this, and I made a list of sources explicitly saying that these names are hyphenated. And I can't find any source saying that they are dashed.... This is exactly what you would expect to find if airport names were hyphenated proper names. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:25, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I assume the response to that is, or would be, two-fold though: first, that it's merely loose language from people who are not punctuation experts, and secondly that even if it "is" a hyphen, our style-guide not only requires an endash but mandates us to force the change when rendering it here. Whether any or all of that has any real weight, I'm not sure .... N-HH talk/edits 16:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The second argument would be quite misleading? Both WP:HYPHEN and WP:DASH happens to recommend a hyphen for proper names of single entities. We can all agree that an airport is a single entity. Maybe someone will want to argue that airports don't have proper names? --Enric Naval (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

They already have of course, not least previously in this very thread ... N-HH talk/edits 14:50, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Enric Naval:

• I have answered your point about "sources explicitly saying that these names are hyphenated" at the RFC itself. As I write, you have not responded there. Why not? You are instead continuing to argue here as if I had not responded! That is unhelpful and uncooperative. If you would prefer that I ignore your points in future, just tell me, all right? ♫♪
• The answer I gave at that RFC is one that N-HH predicts, above. My text at the RFC:

"That's all misleading, Enric. For example, people commonly use 'hyphenated' to mean 'with a hyphen or something that looks like one'. Most writers (and many editors ☺) are not style experts, and most are unaware that there are such things as en dashes. See my answer to you earlier, timestamped today at 23:33, (UTC)"

Answer there, please. It's an RFC affecting naming on Misplaced Pages, and needs to be taken seriously. It is not a political forum for diminishing the effectiveness of MOS.

• You write: "Both WP:HYPHEN and WP:DASH to recommend a hyphen for proper names of single entities." That is inaccurate and misleading. Both those MOS guidelines are more nuanced. Read them again. In particular, note that the examples you appeal to are not of the form we are discussing here: "X~Y Z". They are of the simpler form "X~Y". There are several examples (like "the Roman–Syrian War") where the pattern relevant to these airport discussions is realised with an en dash.

N-HH:

• Enric wrote: "Maybe someone will want to argue that airports don't have proper names?" You responded: "They already have of course, not least previously in this very thread." Really? Where? I had written:

"Airport names are usually functional artificial constructions with semantic weight, more like definite descriptions than fully autonomous proper names."

If your assertion referred to that statement, please amend and discuss what has been said rather than some distortion of it.

• You earlier asked for clarification. That was healthier! Now let me explain. Many proper names are fully autonomous. Many are free of any descriptive meaning. Perhaps the names "Amanda", "Rhode Island", "New South Wales" are good examples. I think few people analyse "Amanda" as describing its bearer as lovable, as the etymological meaning would suggest. Nor "Rhode Island" as if it referred to some island, with modification by "Rhode". I can assure you that for typical Australian users of "New South Wales" that proper name does not call to mind "Wales", nor the quality of being either "south" or "new". These are fully autonomous proper names, freed of any original descriptive content. But not all proper names are like that. "Southern Ocean" remains descriptive for many users, though it functions as a proper name. Same for "Northern Territory" (in Australia), and "North Carolina". And so also for very many airport names. Whichever way you manage its punctuation, "St. Petersburg-Clearwater International Airport" is descriptive: it is an airport, and an international one. And it is semantically associated with the placenames that are its components. It is not a fully autonomous proper name. It has current descriptive meaning, and is not fossilised like "Rhode Island". If for that reason alone, the semantic distinctions marked by hyphen and en dash are preserved in many sources: in best-practice publishing. And that best practice is what MOS, supported by community affirmations that are endorsed by ArbCom, seeks to emulate.

Noetica 00:32, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• Roman–Syrian War might not be the best example to use, as I can not confirm that using an en dash is supported by "common usage". (an article that makes liberal use of en dash in other places, but not for Roman-Syrian War) Anything that has attained "proper name status" by definition has an established proper name. Anything that has not can clearly use any preferred style convention, such as using an en dash in certain situations and some other punctuation in other situations. Does the spelling of a proper name include the punctuation internal to itself? I say it does. While we tend to eschew stylistic spellings such as WAL★MART, we do include hyphens, spaces and /, but is there really any proper name that is constructed using an en dash? Apteva (talk) 02:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's a fine example. First note that most web sites default to hyphen wherever possible (as opposed to sentence-level punctuation, for which many of them reserve the en dash, spaced, like the one you have just linked). But Misplaced Pages prefers sources in print, from quality publishers. Next, so what if few sources use that styling for that war? Misplaced Pages has a consistent style for such cases, and it has wide community backing. This style is applicable to all articles with names like "X~Y War" on Misplaced Pages. Consider the infamous case of Mexican–American War. This source is inconsistent (compare p. 346 and the index entries with the main choice, which is en dash). This one has hyphen once, and just a space another time. This one has hyphen once, and en dash another time. This one and this one have en dash; and you can find very many that have hyphen. So what? No, the space, hyphen, or en dash is not a part of the name, or a feature of the name. It is applied to the name. Styling is applied, according to a manual of style. That's what you do with a manual of style, like MOS.
Not rocket science, in the end.
Noetica 04:17, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I fail to understand why the article referenced deliberately used a hyphen for the war and deliberately used en dashes so many other places other than that they thought that was correct in each case. The MOS does not say to make up preferred spellings. It says use what is correct. I hasten to suggest that anyone named John Lennard-Jones would take severe offense to their name being spelled Lennard/Jones, Lennard Jones, or Lennard(endash)Jones. While an airport is not going to call up wikipedia foundation and complain, they certainly could "roll their eyes" at the use of en dash. It is very clear people can point to the current MOS and say that airport names should per WP:HYPHEN use a hyphen and that others can say that per WP:ENDASH an endash should be used. That is not the question. The question is which is correct? It is clear to me that we need to add an example of an airport, and that example needs to use a hyphen. And I can show you 170 out of 200 books checked that back up that suggestion, and only 6 out of those that use endash. The rule as I see it is very simple. "Hyphenation also occurs ... in proper names", to quote our very own WP:MOS. So, use an en dash if you make up a name with two places and use a hyphen if that name attains the status of being a proper name. As to Mexican American War, out of 100 books checked, only three use endash, and the rest either a hyphen or a space. I would count them if I was settling a discussion about the name of the article, but I would categorically say that in our great ENDASH zeal of 2011, the article is now definitely incorrectly named (for anyone wondering, article names are not used when a diff is given - anything works just as well as the actual article name). Apteva (talk) 08:06, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

And the answer is Mexican-American War (36:2 is far enough). Apteva (talk) 08:13, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Noetica, I replied here. You have dismissed all those sources, but you have presented absolutely no source that contradicts them. You have provided no style guide that says that airport names are not proper names or that they are dashed.

You claim that airport names are just descriptive names, but this is easily refuted by names like Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport, Ben Gurion International Airport, Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport. Wiley Post–Will Rogers Memorial Airport, Petersburg James A. Johnson Airport, McClellan-Palomar Airport, Charles M. Schulz – Sonoma County Airport, Chicago O'Hare International Airport, Portsmouth International Airport at Pease, Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport and many others in List of airports in the United States.

These are not random descriptive names that some wikipedia editor came up with. These are official names which are officially communicated to air transport authorities and then used to create the international airport codes and other codes. If the official name changes, the codes change. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

No no, Enric. That is all mixed up, like the reminder you have just issued about a question to me at the parallel forum where this is all under discussion. There I have responded to you: You asked no such question. Concentrate! You misunderstand me here too.

Editors, it is a shocking waste of our resources to conduct parallel discussions at two talkpages. Can Apteva and Enric decide where they would prefer to exhume all of this old wrangling, and confine it to one place?

And I have requested a speedy close to Apteva's new RM for Mexican–American War. Surely we can do without that Leviathan being revived!

Noetica 11:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I replied here. I am hoping that you find style sources that support your particular interpretation of proper names and that you post them there. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:30, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Still all mixed up, still not reading what was actually said, still reiterating points that were dispatched many times in 2011, still expecting answers but not providing them yourself, still replicating discussions at several forums. Stop it. Noetica 17:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Noetica, I understand the principle you enunciate: in proper names when the elements to be joined have significant independent semantic weight (as is the case if the combination is of two cities or nationalities, for example), then use en-dash; otherwise use hyphen. However, this is not easy to apply. Firstly, it's necessary to understand the origin of the name (e.g. "McClellan~Palomar Airport" could, for all I know as a non-American, be named after a person with the surname "McClellan-Palomar", in which case a hyphen should be used, or after two places, or two people, or one of each, in which cases an en-dash should be used). Secondly, it is a highly subjective issue as to when the independent semantic weight disappears. I hyphenate "McGraw-Hill" because I don't know of or remember publishers called "McGraw" and "Hill". But suppose Macmillan merged with OUP and called itself "Macmillan~OUP", then what should I do? To me, both names would have independent semantic weight, but others might not have this awareness, and when would it stop being significant? In summary, the principle doesn't seem suitable for a Manual of Style: it's not sufficiently clear and precise for most editors to use. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Fine, Peter. Thank you for reading with care – and for asking a reasonable question and making thoughtful points. In due course I would like to answer those. Meanwhile, see what I have posted at one of the discussions running parallel to this one (also at Talk:Mexican American War#Requested move, where I call for that RM to be closed):

"Good, Enric. You got it: I answered there . However, your report of my answer is not accurate. Nor is your take on my view of the matter. Ask what you want there, and I will answer there. On this proviso: this unruly and unproductive RFC and the ill-advised new RM at Talk:Mexican–American War be wound up first. I have personally spent the equivalent of full-time weeks of work on these issues, most of it in 2011. I am prepared to do more; but not in several forums simultaneously just because someone thinks that is a good idea. I don't. Misplaced Pages identifies it as WP:FORUMSHOPPING, as SMcCandlish points out above."

That is my considered and necessary response to these issues being raised in an especially disruptive way, yet again. It is such disorder that led to the ArbCom intervention in 2011. Those who remember it will not want a repeat!

So: all in good time, right?

Noetica 22:13, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

It is not my impression that there is any disruption going on, other than a group of hyphen articles that were inappropriately, but with the best of intentions, moved to endashes, mostly in 2011. It is easy to fix - recognize that "Roman-Syrian War" and "Mexican-American War" are proper names and use hyphens, and adjust the MOS to show this. See below. But I also think there are way, way too many examples in the MOS. Apteva (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

"Proper names"? No they're not mere proper names. The definitions of proper nouns and proper names need to be carefully used, not bandied about. Tony (talk) 02:56, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Two corrections

It appears that the example "the Uganda–Tanzania War; the Roman–Syrian War; the east–west runway; the Lincoln–Douglas debates; a carbon–carbon bond" while not commenting that it is a little long (do we really need so many examples?), is in need of two corrections; in the first example, "the Uganda–Tanzania War", war should not be capitalized (see google book search), and it should be "but not the Roman–Syrian War (as Roman-Syrian War is a proper name)". The article at Uganda–Tanzania War should also be moved, to Uganda–Tanzania war, and if it is a proper name, a better example used, and it be moved to Uganda-Tanzania War. Apteva (talk) 23:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Burma/Myanmar

WP:CONSISTENCY gives an exception to ENGVAR for proper names. The Burma article is in British English and Burma is preferred by British English. Suppose Myanmar is the common name. Is it okay to primarily refer to it within the article as Myanmar even though it is in British English? Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 09:27, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't really have anything to do with British vs. American English linguistic/style differences. According to Burma#Etymology, it's about which countries recognize the authority of the current military government, who renamed the country to Myanmar. The UN does recognize it as Myanmar, but the UK, US, and Canada do not, and continue to regard it as Burma, according to the article. I don't know whether the UN's recognition (without US and UK) should be sufficient to change enwiki's naming – I just wanted to clarify that it's a political, not a language, issue. —— 17:36, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

(Suppose) media and popular usage does not follow the official usage. Then what? Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 09:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

See my comment below. Rich Farmbrough, 11:59, 1 October 2012 (UTC).

Looking at Google Ngrams there don't seem to be substantial differences between English varieties: in all of them Burma dominates (though many of them will be mentioning the country in an historical context and hence shouldn't count – cf this; any idea how to tell them apart in Ngram results?). As for the general principle, I'd say that in article titles at least, if Word A is somewhat common in both Dialect X and Dialect Y whereas Word B is very common in Dialect X but very rare in Dialect Y, we'd better use Word A, as per WP:COMMONALITY. — A. di M.  17:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

nGrams are only for publications through 2008. I don't think this is sufficient in this case, given the significant changes in 2010-11. —— 15:19, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

When referring to official documents or the country's presence in international fora, it would seem appropriate to use Myanmar. When referring to the nation, its people, and its history, it is best to use Burma. However, in both cases, the first mention within an article should maybe have a parenthetical note or a comma-separated clarification that it is also known by the other name. National Geographic uses Myanmar (Burma) for their official page on the country. —Zujine|talk 06:03, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that kind of makes sense (much like when to use “Republic of China” vs “Taiwan”, etc.). — A. di M.  00:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The country is historically named Burma. A possibly illegitimate government then renamed it to Myanmar. I would tend to favor retaining the existing name Burma for that reason. I could also see this as being a legitimate use of a slash – Burma/Myanmar (with redirects from both individual names to it). —— 19:27, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

No, using a slash in the title is about as awful as it can get. I'd rather flip a coin than use that. — A. di M.  00:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

No the article should consistently (except when discussing naming, or in quotations) use one name. Should common usage clearly favour one or the other name the article could be moved to the common name. The usage in the article is not subject to WP:COMMONNAME in the way the title is. Rich Farmbrough, 12:00, 1 October 2012 (UTC).

No, I'm pretty sure that referring to the same country as Gaul when talking about the 1st century and as France when talking about the 20st century, even in the same article, is perfectly appropriate; same applies to Persia/Iran, Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul, etc. So in principle it would make perfect sense to refer to the same country as Burma or Myanmar depending on what time period you're talking about – except that there don't seem to be that many people using the name “Myanmar” when referring to any time period and Misplaced Pages ought to follow common usage rather than lead it. — A. di M.  14:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

It's my general impression that Myanmar is more popular now. FWIW, searching Google News for 2012-01-01 through 2012-10-02:

• 130,000 hits for "Myanmar" -"Burma"
• 27,000 hits for "Burma" -"Myanmar"

I can see using Burma for the time period before the renaming, naming the article Myanmar (with a ref to Burma and the controversy in the lead), based on current usage. —— 17:46, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

MOS:CONSECUTIVE

Recommend changing "Where a proper noun that includes terminal punctuation ends a sentence" to "Where a proper name that includes terminal punctuation ends a sentence". Technically a noun is a single word, and does not include any punctuation. Names can include punctuation. Apteva (talk) 05:12, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

A noun is a part of speech, and need not be word. Rich Farmbrough, 12:28, 1 October 2012 (UTC).

There has been a recent-ish push to make proper nouns words only (starting with this edit, but churning throughout May, June, and July). -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

This is a common linguistic convention, not just some Misplaced Pages idiosyncrasy.

• "We may therefore draw a distinction between a PROPER NOUN, which is a single word, and a NAME, which may or may not consist of more than one word." [Quirk et al.: A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, p.288)
• ". . . Proper nouns, by contrast, are word-level units belonging to the category noun. Clinton and Zealand are proper nouns, but New Zealand is not.. . . Proper nouns function as heads of proper names, but . . ." .

Part of speech is traditionally a synonym for a class of word. Nouns should be distinguished from noun phrases.

--Boson (talk) 21:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Common, but not universal (see Oxford Companion to the English Language). The idiosyncrasy is not Misplaced Pages's. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Clearly name and noun are synonyms, but technically a noun refers to a single word. Random House in 2012 uses as examples for proper noun "Lincoln, Sarah, Pittsburgh, and Carnegie Hall". Proper noun is older than proper name and appeared around 1890. A 1961 dictionary has both, with the definition of proper name being proper noun, and the definition of proper noun being a noun that is a name (I am paraphrasing). Only if you want to specify "I am not talking about names that consist of only one word, but those that are more than one word" would it be clearer to use "proper name", but either proper name or proper noun can interchangeably be used. For those born before, say, 1920 saying "proper name" is going to sound strange, as "thing-a-majig" is not a proper name, but "carburetor" is a proper name, and only proper nouns get capitalized. But since when did we start writing encyclopedia articles on every word and phrase in the dictionary? Due to the recentism of proper noun, let alone proper name, I withdraw the suggestion. Proper noun is fine. Apteva (talk) 22:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Technically "United Kingdom" is not a noun phrase like "united kingdom" is, and "UK" is a (proper) noun, as is "United Kingdom". Technically, not all grammarians agree on this interpretation. Technically, a noun has no spaces in it only if we agree that that's what noun means. -- JHunterJ (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

To clarify the first comment, that noun is a part of speech, a noun phrase or a noun clause operates identically as a noun in a sentence. In the sentence: "He is ten feet tall is a common expression." The phrase "he is ten feet tall" acts as if it was a noun. A noun phrase is very different from a name. A name is a combination of one or more words with or without punctuation (that much is the same as a noun phrase), which names something - that part is different. Apteva (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The sentence would be

"He is ten feet tall" is a common expression.

with quotation marks (double or single). That's not the typical compound word (post office, swimming pool, wide receiver) or noun phrase (little lamb, everywhere that Mary went). Compound words such as swimming pool or United Kingdom are not different from a name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The advice itself appears wrong to me. The example sentence, involving the band "What is this?", appears to be a question, when it is not. I think it should be changed. --Trovatore (talk) 22:39, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Relying on the presence or absence of spaces in conventional orthography to determine whether something is a compound noun or a noun phrase (regardless of whether "proper" or not) is highly unreliable. This ngram shows that "goatherder" and "goat herder" are more-or-less equally common, but they are the same entity regardless of spelling. Compound words are usually distinguished from noun phrases by stress and intonation patterns. However, this is surely all irrelevant. MOS:CONSECUTIVE is about the use of consecutive punctuation marks; it's irrelevant how the first of these arises. The important advice is (a) don't have duplicated full stops/periods or any other punctuation marks at the end of sentences (b) avoid misleading the reader, which the example involving the band "What is this?" does, as Trovatore correctly notes. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Punctuation and footnotes

I would very much like to add the following to this section:
- - - - -

In contrast to scientific articles, ref tags are not placed immediately following the name of a scientist, but following the content that is referenced.

• Example: Humanistic psychologist Carl Rogers stated that the individual needed an environment that provided them with acceptance, empathy, and approval.

- - - - -

The reason is that in more and more articles (anyway, the ones that I see) the ref tags are put immediately behind the name, just as in scientific articles. The problem is that is becomes unclear where the referenced content finishes and the unreferenced content starts.
For instance, "Rogers stated that the individual needed love. Love is the most important need for a human being. Without love, people can get depressed."
In this case, there is no way to know where Rogers statements finish, and the editor's opinion starts. I would like to point this out to some editors and be able to refer to the manual of style. So that's why I wrote this extra example. Lova Falk talk 08:03, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Too specific, and ambiguous. My impression is that by "scientific articles" you mean "articles in scientific journals, as opposed to articles in wikipedia", many of which are scientific articles. Just say references follow the facts they are referencing. If a specific editor is violating that you can {{welcome}} (subst:welcome) them and point that out. Apteva (talk) 18:22, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Added a section to Misplaced Pages:Simplified Manual of Style, though to help avoid this happening. Apteva (talk) 18:59, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

It's a WP:CITEVAR issue. If the editors at the article in question want to use that style, they're permitted to. Your only recourse is to gently talk them out of it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:00, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing. Suppose the Harvard style is being used. Then you would get something like "Rogers (2009) stated that the individual needed love. Love is the most important need for a human being. Without love, people can get depressed" (where "Rogers (2009)" would be linked). This style is perfectly acceptable in Misplaced Pages, but doesn't correspond to the advice that "references follow the facts they are referencing". Peter coxhead (talk) 10:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Attempted deletion of 2 commas by Special:Contributions/121.45.223.144

Please, look to User talk: Incnis_Mrsi #WP:_Manual_of_Style. Commas clearly make sense for me, but I'm not a native speaker. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:04, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Moved that discussion here: Apteva (talk) 16:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi,

You recently reverted my change (deletion of comma) on Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, with the comment:

"nope. Commas mark the end of an enumeration".

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AManual_of_Style&diff=515271481&oldid=515258747

I don't see what enumerations have to do with that change- in the following sentence, if you remove the parenthetic phrase then the comma (directly after the closing parenthesis) is clearly superfluous.

The English-language titles of compositions (books and other print works, songs and other audio works, films and other visual media works, paintings and other artworks, etc.), are given in title case, in which every word is given an initial capital except for certain less important words.

Anyway, no worries, but if you do have a second look at that change, I would be interested in any of your comments (perhaps I have missed something). (by the way, please post any responses here rather than my user page as my IP address can change).

Thanks, 121.45.223.144 (talk) 08:26, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

nope. Commas mark the end of an enumeration. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 07:54, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, in the first case the IPuser is correct, the comma is redundant and interrupts the flow of the sentence "paintings and other artworks, etc.), are given in title case" in a manner that is not expected. For example, if you take out that long parenthetical, you get "The English-language titles of compositions, are given in title case" and there a comma looks quite odd. In the second case the comma is not necessary, and can be used to emphasize the phrase on its first appearance a little less strongly than using italics, but the emphasis is really not necessary. Apteva (talk) 16:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the IP is correct that those commas should not be there. I took them back out. Dicklyon (talk) 16:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I would, however, like to encourage Incnis Mrsi, because there are areas where it is extremely helpful to have someone who knows ru. Apteva (talk) 18:01, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Maths styling and readability

I want to make a case for including, as a style guideline, that all math using symbols other then the basic arithmetic symbols, be 'transcripted' into ordinary language. I don't mean that the math be replaced by ordinary language descriptions, but that displayed math have accompanying text that reads as if the math were being spoken. The case is very simple:

1) There is a huge problem of innumeracy in the general public, even among very intelligent people.

2) Part of this problem has nothing to do with the difficulty of understanding relations of quantity and so forth, but a simple inability to *read* math. Often people's eyes glaze over at the appearance of math because they simply cannot associate any sounds or meanings to the symbols.

3) I realize that the meaning and often the pronunciation of various symbols is covered in specific entries about the symbols but... a) This is not universally the case. There are symbols without specific entries, and those that have them require either the symbol itself or its name to be found. b) Math symbols are often displayed as graphic images, thus the symbols cannot be individually selected, linked or searched unless one already knows the name of the symbol. c) People are reluctant to search lists and read about symbols when they just want to grasp the basic concept the math is expressing. Instead, they go away thinking, "this is not for me..."

4) An alternate possible solution would be to include a list of every symbol used on a page with a link to the specific entry for each, perhaps in a sidebar. But this solution is inferior because: a) Symbols often have context dependent readings. For example '—>' may read 'implies' or it may read 'goes to' or 'maps to' etc. Disambiguation has to occur in context. b) Even in the same context different mathematicians will sometimes read expressions differently. There is no one canonically correct reading for many math expressions. c) It requires people to leave the page and come back, perhaps without the information they sought. d) It is a little like telling people, "learn the math before reading this". But in some cases that is exactly why they are here... trying to learn the math!

5) The problems of reading math expressions and understanding them are related but separate problems. In some cases one does need to "learn the math" before understanding, but there are numerous cases where simply being able to read the expression conveys sufficient information to result in a satisfactory understanding of the article, including the unfamiliar math.

6) For the same reason we don't encourage highly technical articles laced with specialist jargon. The function of an encyclopedia is to transfer specialized knowledge to a general audience. We don't allow foreign language quotations to go untranslated. We oughtn't allow math expressions to remain impenetrable.

68.80.134.156 (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2012 (UTC) (sorry, thought I was logged in) Baon (talk) 17:00, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that means that at Maxwell's equations#Equations (SI units), for example, ${\displaystyle {\scriptstyle \partial \Omega }}$ ${\displaystyle \mathbf {E} \cdot \mathrm {d} \mathbf {S} ={\frac {Q(V)}{\varepsilon _{0}}}}$ becomes something like (this is surely wrong; I didn't bother to look anything up because the details don't matter) the dot product of the electric field with the infinitesimal change in the surface, integrated over an infinitesimal change in the volume, is equal to the electric charge of the volume divided by the electrical constant. If that is your idea, I think that is harder to understand than the equation. The article's preceding paragraphs explain the equations to some extent. The Simple English equivalent is harder to understand, not easier (perhaps because my editing over there is frustrated by the "science not babytalk" faction) because it "simplified" mainly by omitting the verbal explanation. So how would you write that? And do you really think editors would even read any further nagging about readability?Art LaPella (talk) 20:33, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes! I think that's much more useful. Let me stress again that I am not advocating this as a replacement for the equation. I can at least look up "the dot product" and I know what an infinitesimal change is and what an electric field is (and could look them up if I didn't). I can't even look up a circle with two kind-of-extended "f"s (or perhaps "s"s) drawn vertically through it and two greek subscripts that I may or may not be able to name. Looking at the equation only, I don't even know that infinitesimals are involved. But perhaps you are trying too hard to deliver the meaning of the equation. That is labor the reader must undertake. I notice your code uses the term 'partial omega' for the subscript, and if I look up "dot product" the wiki page nowhere has the circle with two function signs drawn through it. So this must be "<something>subscript partial omega". What I am asking for is what you would say if you were reading the text aloud to a companion who's comprehension of the meaning of the math was not an issue. How do you read it to yourself? Do you just say to yourself, "oh, Maxwell's equation" and then substitute your understanding of the meaning without ever referring to the symbols themselves? The explanation of the meaning must be something else again, and stand apart. For instance, I might read a differential as, "dxdt" or as "dx over dt" or as "delta x delta t". There is not one "right way" to do it. I might be reduced to "d times x divided by d times t..." and I may have no clue what it means, but at least it can be read. I am looking for analogues of readings like, "the definite integral from a to b of y with respect to x...", or "take the integral from t-nought to t...".

As for the problems of getting consensus and editor resistance or push back... those are real problems I don't want to minimize. I think it is a matter of lobbying for the usefulness of it. Along with reminders of the purpose of an encyclopedia.. it is not to glory in one's superiority or have conversations with one's peers. I agree with the no babytalk guideline. I am not suggesting talking down to anyone. Merely providing additional verbal information that some (I think many) people would find useful. If done properly, it should not interfere with readability, but enhance it for most people. Those who see it as an unnecessary crutch can skip over it. That is not ideal, but it is, I think, preferable to skipping over the math itself, which many people currently do. In any event, thank you for entertaining the idea. Obviously it will not be an easy sell to math editors, who are the least likely to perceive a need for it, and who have much invested in their own math competency, unless they are also zealous educators. Baon (talk) 23:42, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I looked at the SI units page you link to above. It is very good; very clean. The table provided on the symbols and notation is great! But consider a simple example: ${\displaystyle \mathbf {\nabla \cdot } }$ Is this "the dot product of the divergence operator and" or "the divergence of" or "divergence times..." All the above? None of the above? Uneducated, I read "the funny down pointing triangle that is the divergence operator, not delta followed by a dot that probably means multiplication". I want to know how it is commonly read. Then I can worry about its function in the equation. We have difficulty associating meaning to symbols we can't name, I think. Baon (talk) 00:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree that Wikipedian editors are more driven by vanity than helpfulness, but there is no easy solution without paying them. If readers don't at least recognize that the surface integral symbol (I found the explanation in the table) is some kind of integral, then are we really doing them a favor by inviting them to look up dot product, divergence etc.? This is a physics article. We have other articles that describe multi-variable calculus. So if we're leading them into a trap they won't understand, then isn't "learn the math before reading this" more helpful? And even if a verbal description does more good than harm in this case, is that true of every case, such as the much simpler quadratic formula for instance? Or should we let editors use their discretion for individual articles? And even if we should have such verbal descriptions for all articles, what will another guideline accomplish that WP:JARGON isn't doing already, besides the familiar dangers of WP:CREEP? Most Wikipedians won't read it, and the ones who do will use it for edit wars as in the thread immediately after this one. Art LaPella (talk) 04:52, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again for engaging with me on this matter. I am coming around to your point of view. I have spent more time looking over the symbol lookup table, and I see that there is a column in the table for "reads as", which is pretty much what I was asking for. I can see the duplication of effort that would be entailed in making that part of every article. I guess my problem reduces to individual cases where a symbol is used that is not in the table... I started this train of thought after trying to read something on the "Affine transformations" page. I have looked at the source.. The symbol is 'varphi' and I was able to look it up. I found the page on phi discusses this. It is a varient font form of phi, found mostly in older fonts, and is deprecated for mathematics. I am content to address this on the Affine transformations page, and take it as an isolated instance. I may add it to the symbol table with a note, so others will at least have a chance of seeing it there, if I can figure out how to do it. I still think there is a problem with symbol lookup... a kind of catch 22 where you need to know the name of the symbol in order to be able to look it up efficiently. And most users won't go to the page source to read the markup. (I didn't think of it myself, initially.) But I can see my suggestion is not really a good fix to those problems. Baon (talk) 16:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Spaced vs unspaced em dash

A certain well-intentioned user named Hydrargyrum keeps replacing unspaced em dashes in hundreds of Misplaced Pages articles with spaced em dashes (preceded by a non-breaking space). This is contrary to WP:DASH; still, Hydrargyrum maintains that his is the correct way because he has "completed a typing course". I recognise that there is no single way of using em dashes: The Chicago Manual of Style and the Oxford Guide to Style, for example, recommend unspaced em dashes while AP Stylebook and a few others propose that these be spaced. However, WP:Manual of Style has expressly stipulated that em dashes should not be spaced on Misplaced Pages. The above user argues that "the information at WP:DASH was developed by incompetent individuals operating in an information vacuum, who apparently never took a course in typing, nor are they familiar with how line wraps are handled in browsers and other software" (User_talk:Hydrargyrum#Em_dashes). What, if any, action should now be taken – either with regard to restraining Hydrargyrum or allowing other styles in WP:MOS? Thanks. kashmiri 22:48, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I ask such people to read User:Art LaPella/Because the guideline says so. If that doesn't work, others might try something more coercive. Art LaPella (talk) 23:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, good read, I posted the link, let's see. Little optimism remains: Hydrargyrum has been asked to stop changing dashes his way already several times in the last few months – to no effect. kashmiri 00:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Remember to advise a user (as I've done in this case) if you are going to discuss their behavior somewhere. —— 04:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

As often when it comes to style discussions, they seem rather overconfident that they are "right" and that everyone else, or any different punctuation style, is "wrong". The reality of course, as appears to have been pointed out to them, is that there are alternatives, which are simply a matter of choice - and that the most commonly seen and used alternatives in the real world for dashes in running prose are the unspaced emdash and the spaced endash. MOS happily allows either. Common sense and the MOS would both suggest an editor shouldn't be making mass changes between the two of them - let alone changing either to the rarely seen spaced emdash. Nor do I think there's much need to change the MOS to add that third option (and even if we did, changing to that format in individual cases from one of the other two would still be utterly pointless). N-HH talk/edits 09:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

This is related to the internal consistency RfC in this same page. Some people take upon themselves to change hundreds of articles between two accepted styles in order to ensure consistency, and they refuse to take hints. The MOS needs to make really clear that this is not acceptable. If the MOS doesn't say this clearly then editors can't use the MOS to stop this sort of behaviour. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Not really related. This is about an editor who is changing to an unacceptable style (per the MOS). —— 16:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Modification to MOS:IDENTITY

A few weeks ago, there was a proposal at WP:VPP to modify the wording of MOS:IDENTITY, specifically Point 2; the archived discussion is here. It gained some traction, but it died down without any kind of resolution, so I want to raise it again. The specific change being sought is;

"Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's gender at the time of notability as reflected within the prevalence of mainstream reliable sources. Identity changes thereafter should be dealt with chronologically but should always follow the conventions used with prevalence in mainstream sources."

Instead of copying over the rationale, the link to the archive shows Berean Hunter's rationale, and other examples are provided in the thread. If people think this would be better discussed elsewhere, that's fine, but since the waters at VPP have been tested this seems like the most logical place. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:49, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I made a similar proposal back in May here. I agree with Blade that we need to follow what mainstream sources say rather than get ahead of these sources by making a judgment based on an individual's statements. GabrielF (talk) 18:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Does this mean we'll have to change Template:MOS-TW?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:40, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it would. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

What would the template's words have to change to?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:48, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Hadn't thought about it... that'll obviously need some work. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:55, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you clear up the exact meaning of this proposed rule?? Is it any similar to the following:

Trans women who are notable for being trans women should be referred to as she/her. However, trans women notable primarily for an event before the operation of surgery for a reason that has nothing to do with being transsexual should be referred to as he/him as if they were cisgender men. Georgia guy (talk) 22:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment