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Latest revision as of 23:38, 27 December 2024

21 December 2024

Luigi Mangione

Luigi Mangione (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Closed two days early by a non-administrator, despite the AfD having over 30 votes. While the outcome will still likely be keep, it was an improper closure and didn’t give me time to rethink my vote reading through the keeps. Someone on the talk page noted that one in every five votes was something like merge or delete, and given more time could have closed as no consensus. Isn’t there a policy against non-admins closing potentially controversial AfDs, anyways?— Preceding unsigned comment added by EF5 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse but allow early renomination. I agree that this should have been handled by an admin. Many of the Keep !votes are little more than WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or WP:ILIKEIT, completely ignoring WP:BLPCRIME and WP:PERPETRATOR. Additionally, some of the most experienced editors make a compelling case to redirect the page to Killing of Brian Thompson, as per our common practice in such situations. Alas, the outcome wouldn't have been any different had an admin closed it, whether immediately, at the end of the seven days, or after a relisting or two, be it as Keep or as No-consensus. There was simply no consensus to delete or redirect the page, as the appellant here readily admits. Per WP:DRVPURPOSE#6, DRV should not be used to argue technicalities, which is what the appellant is doing here. Overturning to No-consensus would achieve nothing. Owen× ☎ 14:24, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse Sure, it would've been preferable if an admin were to close this AfD, but that would be needless bureaucracy at this point considering the non-admin closer was correct in that the AfD was WP:SNOWing towards Keep. By my count of the bolded !votes, roughly 100 users supported Keeping the article (which includes experienced editors and admins) while 19 users voted some other way (and most of these non-keep !votes came early on in the discussion, not towards the end). As an admin opined at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Luigi Mangione, "any outcome other than 'keep' would be highly controversial." Some1 (talk) 15:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse Overwhelming consensus to keep. A separate merge discussion can take place on the subject article’s talk page to see if there is an interest to merge to Killing of Brian Thompson, though I find consensus to do so unlikely at this point (maybe more likely several months from now). While an admin closure would have probably been better, it was clear the AFD would not close with any result other than keep. And GhostofDanGurney is a very experienced AFD contributor. Frank Anchor 16:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn to no consensus (involved). It's true, "keep" was the overwhelming !vote, but as people always say, AfD is not a vote. Only about 20 of the many, many "keep" !votes articulated an appropriate rationale; most of the rest were WP:ILIKEIT, WP:ITSINTHENEWS, WP:WHATABOUTX, or simple unexplained !votes. Meanwhile, there were 9 reasoned "delete" !votes and 9 reasoned "redirect" or "merge" !votes. That's a close to even split between those who believed it currently warranted a standalone mainspace page versus those who didn't. I truly think that if a closer had discarded the non-policy-based !votes, N/C would be closer to the actual outcome. (And, in a handy WP:IAR outcome, it's fundamentally the same result as "keep".) Dclemens1971 (talk) 16:20, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Everything you said is true, Dclemens1971. But as I mentioned above, I can't see anyone objecting to an early renomination, which means an overturn to N/C would be symbolic in nature, without any practical impact. Owen× ☎ 16:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Fair point; I’d missed your comment. Dclemens1971 (talk) 16:54, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Would overturning to no-consensus actually change anything? It's not like the article would actually get deleted. guninvalid (talk) 19:43, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  It would allow earlier renomination (not that I expect that to happen), but more importantly it would reinforce the principle that drive-by !votes without rationale are to be discounted when looking for consensus. Dclemens1971 (talk) 20:24, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  I changed my own vote from Endorse to Overturn to No Consensus per your reasoning. Many of the keep votes were not based in policy; it’s important to emphasize that AfDs are not straight votes and that votes without policy based rationales will not be given serious weight. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 23:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse own close - I felt keep !voters such as Locke Cole, Cullen328, and 50.39.97.171 successfully rebutted much of the concerns from the non-keep-!voters regarding BLPCRIME/PUBLICFIGURE and BLP1E. The main concern that did go unanswered, however, was WP:RECENTISM, so I'm okay with an earlier re-nomination. But a consensus for anything besides keep in that discussion, I felt truly had a "snowball's chance in hell" at this stage. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 17:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

*overturn to delete As far as I can see, the many, many people who gave the same rationale for deletion— that a string of passing mentions in business news do not add up to notability— were just ignored, both in other responses and in the counting. And it's hardly a WP:SNOW situation. Mangoe (talk) 17:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse and disallow (not like it's a hard and fast rule, but still) early nomination. Nothing is going to change in a week or a month. The problem with RECENTISM I've discussed in detail here. Jclemens (talk) 18:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  While there is every reason this could have been a NAC close or a SNOW close, a NAC SNOW close is almost always going to end up here, especially on a well-participated AFD, so GhostOfDanGurney I suggest you not try that in the future. We may even want to make a note or strengthen the existing advice against doing this precisely because this DRV is the predictable (inevitable?) outcome of an NAC SNOW close of a contested AfD. Jclemens (talk) 19:57, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse I referenced the reasoning on the AfD talk page, so to avoid regurgitating my own words: "As far as I can tell from a rough search, the Keep:Delete ratio is very roughly around 5:1. Granted, the numbers alone do not warrant a snow close, but otherwise, the keep !votes would have to be on average 5x better and more relevant than the delete in order to even consider no consensus here. Granted the keep votes probably are overall much better quality than the deletes, but maybe only by a factor or 2-3x at most, leaving it very much consensus for keep at 3:2 at a minimum. I don't think there is an issue with the snow close personally, but sometimes it's worth elaborating on it, such as even bringing this back around to no conesnsus is not a realistic uphill battle; and otherwise time is on the side of the keep !votes, that of the discussion avalanching towards keep more specifically. There are otherwise certainly enough counter-arguments of BLP1E, CRIME and PERP, even if not as much as there should be in such a discussion." CNC (talk) 18:51, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse, and do not encourage an earlier than standard WP:RENOM. <involved, !voted “keep”>. There is an abundance of quality sourcing that precludes a reasonable argument to delete. The possibility of the sourcing being a flash in the pan will requires months, minimum, to establish. AfD should not be used to argue “merge and redirect”, use the talk page for that. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 19:24, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Trout for the early NAC. An early close is never justified if it leads to a review. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: . E_F 03:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Only WP:BLP1E was provided as a reason by the nominator. It's not on editors to address every single argument levied by !voters, especially when such arguments are meritless. You can cast stones at the original nom for not providing any additional reasons to support deletion, but the process was followed and this was in WP:SNOW territory. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:34, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, you cite a !vote "Keep Noteworthy" above, which appears to be a claim of WP:N, but you claim your list is a list of every vote that isn't rooted in policy or is just a claim with no evidence. Also, considering many other !voters voting keep provided sources and evidence, why do you suppose everyone else should too? Or are you looking for copy-paste !votes? Seriously, get out of here with this. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:36, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Sour grapes are over there, in case you're lost. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

What?? Voting on an AfD should be policy-based, not just "keep" or "he's too notable". I'm giving evidence to my claim that keep votes were given unnecessarily large amounts of weight when closing this. Yes, I left out the ones with evidence, because that wasn't the point of the list. Again, would you give weight to the five keep votes that just said "keep"? I believe this is the second time I've had to say this to you, but way to WP:ABF. E_F 19:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, you're already violating WP:DRVPURPOSE #8 by casting WP:ASPERSIONS about other editors. Carry on, I look forward to seeing you blocked for being an idiot. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:42, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, please. Keep the personal attacks to yourself. E_F 19:52, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

You first? —Locke Cole • t • c 21:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I removed a comment after realizing it violated our aspersions policy. Do you have an issue with that? Feel free to take this to ANI if you want to continue, as it’s clogging up the DRV. E_F 21:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (involved) with an Oncorhynchus mykiss to the non-admin closer. This was the only possible close, but it wasn't necessary for the non-admin to close the AFD early. The close should have known that the close would result in this DRV, and this DRV could have been avoided by not doing a non-admin snow close of a contentious topic. Sometimes a closer cannot avoid being taken to DRV, but a non-admin can avoid being taken to DRV for a snow close by leaving it to an admin. I didn't vote in the AFD, but I voted Keep in the MFD, and said that an article should be kept, and would have voted Keep in the AFD if I had participated. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
• While I expected this AFD to close as Keep or No consensus, it is not what I would define as an appropriate SNOWCLOSE as there were plenty of editors who argued to Delete or Merge/Redirect. Typically, SNOW closes are almost unanimous and this one wasn't unanimous. I think this close happened because an AFD close was requested at WP:AN and I think the closer was responding to that brief discussion.

I don't think this is worth overturning but I do think the NAC closer should get a reminder that they should have probably have left this to a more experienced closer who might have left a more explanatory closure statement. Having seen this AFD earlier, I expected it to wind up at DRV no matter what the close was because it was a controversial subject and the discussion was closed early. Liz 05:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (involved) as I feel there was a consensus to keep. The closer however, should be admonished per Liz's comment above. This definitely wasn't a "Snow Keep"- Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. There was a snowball's chance in hell of the deletion proposal being accepted, so there was no need to run it through the entire process. Correct application of WP:NOTBURO and an appropriate application of WP:IAR, both by invoking WP:SNOW, and it doesn't matter that the editor was a non-admin. The discussion was contentious but the outcome was obvious and it can't seriously be stated the keep outcome is now controversial (even the starter of this DRV does not claim this much), the closer is an experienced editor and has not expressed a lack of impartiality or similar (to my knowledge), and the keep result did not require action by an administrator.—Alalch E. 15:21, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn to No Consensus (involved) This AfD should have been closed by an admin after the full seven day with a reasonable analysis of how they reached the implemented outcome; SNOW NACing this was incredibly inappropriate. I initially recommended overturning the closure and allowing an uninvolved admin to make a fresh decision. However, at the end of the day, this was either going to be closed as Keep or No Consensus. The closer has definitely earned a good trouting, but I don’t believe that the outcome reached (specifically, the article staying up) was substantively wrong. (I’m recommending Overturn to No Consensus rather than a standard Endorse per Jclemens‘s reasoning and my concern that many of the keep votes were not based in policy).Spirit of Eagle (talk) 23:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  It wouldn't be a good thing to overturn to 'no consensus' when there was a consensus. —Alalch E. 23:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  my concern that many of the keep votes were not based in policy Many keep !voters routinely mentioned either notability (a clear and direct appeal to WP:N), while many others noted the significant media coverage in reliable sources (an appeal to WP:SIGCOV specifically and WP:GNG indirectly). As to the plain "keep" !votes with little or nothing added, I'd argue that we should abide by WP:AGF: these editors probably saw compelling arguments made earlier in the discussion and felt no need to add to what were already good arguments to keep. The first truly naked "keep" vote didn't occur until after ~25 other !votes, a majority of which were already "keep" and had each provided rationales. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

  Just to be absolutely clear, I did not intend for my comments to be taken as a personal attack against any voters in the AfD. Rather, I think that the delete side had some very strong BLP related arguments while some on the keep side put forth relatively weak arguments (for the record, I was a Keep vote). While the keeps had a clear numerical advantage, I think this was a lot closer once the strength of the voters’ arguments is factored in. (FYI, I’m probably going to rest my argument here. It looks like there’s growing consensus for a standard endorse; I think endorsing is a perfectly acceptable outcome). Spirit of Eagle (talk) 22:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. The close was correct on the merits. There was not a snowballs chance in hell of a delete consensus coming out of that discussion. Much better to revaluate in six to nine months and discuss the possibility of a merge/redirect at that time. On the other hand, any early close of such a contentions discussion was likely to end up at DRV and an early NAC almost certain to. Any close almost certain to be disputed in good faith is a poor candidate for a NAC. So a minnow to "Ghost of Dan Gurney" for a mistake in that regard. Eluchil404 (talk) 01:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse If it's snowing outside, you need to be allowed to say it's snowing. I do agree this should not have been a NAC, but I don't think it quite rises to a level of a BADNAC which needs to be overturned. SportingFlyer T·C 07:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse (involved). There were multiple policy based argumements to keep. Clearly, we want new editors to articulate a policy based rationale and should encourage that in various friendly ways. But the recommendations of new editors who are, in effect, echoing the !votes of more experienced editors should not be discounted entirely. They were both persuaded and motivated to !vote. What I see is a number of good faith newbies who noticed that a high visibility article was up for deletion and decided to help out by chiming in. That ought to count for something.

• I agree that this discussion should have been closed by an administrator after seven full days, but that is nowhere near a big enough problem to overturn the close. Cullen328 (talk) 07:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse A) Taking administrative shortcuts in the name of expediting things up is self-defeating. B) This was a clear SNOW close--there wasn't a snowball's chance this was getting closed in any other way. Basically: A NAC in such a situation was within the rules, but unwise because of the DRV that was sure to follow. So the closer was right on the rules and wrong on common sense/experience. Learn from this. Hobit (talk) 04:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - Would I be forgiven in thinking that people saying that, "Yes, it was a correct SNOW-close" and "But it was always going to go to DRV" at the same time slightly oxymoronic? There are several !votes with this general comment, including one going all the way to say I should be "admonished" for it (which I equate with a formal warning, more so than a "reminder" and much more so than the silly fish), which I frankly find bizarre. Why should someone be punished for doing something that was correct? ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 14:57, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure it's slightly oxymoronic, but it's not an uncommon circumstance on Misplaced Pages or in life that who does something matters as much or even more as what they do. I, for example, am a CNA. If I saw a sick patient in a Nursing Home and adjusted their medication, I would be fired even if the adjustments were correct and helpful. Because only doctors are allowed to make changes to medicines. Similarly, though in a much lower stakes environment, non-admins closing controversial AfD's (even correctly) are actually making more work for the community because their closes are more likely to be contested at DRV. It is not fair, but those are certainly the facts.

• Endorse (involved). Many "delete" !votes referred to WP:BLP1E which immediately disqualified those !votes (per BLP1E #3). !votes that provided additional rationale would need to be judged on their arguments, but the overwhelming consensus was "keep", and I believe to such a level that it was a clear and convincing WP:SNOW keep. My only WP:NAC feedback would be to provide a clearer rationale in the close of something with this many !votes. Just because it's a SNOW-close doesn't mean you get to skip over the people who will invariably disagree with you and run to DRV over any perceived or actual deficiency in your closure. AFAIK @GhostOfDanGurney: is free to go back and write a long-form explanation for their decision (especially in so far as why the delete/merge/non-keep arguments were unconvincing even without their numeric disadvantage). I'd urge them to consider taking some time to review the close and write an addendum explaining it a bit more. Do not recommend an earlier than normal WP:RENOM per @SmokeyJoe:. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)