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Zimbabwean cricket team in Ireland in 2024 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

Even after the deletion discussion's consensus to delete, page has not yet been deleted. Forgive me if this isn't the correct place to post such requests TNM101 (chat) 10:36, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• The page was indeed deleted in response to the AFD. It has since been undeleted and moved back and forth in and out of draftspace. The version currently present is significantly different that it is not eligible for deletion under WP:CSD#G4. The concerns raised at the AFD, mainly around it being too soon to write about what was then a future tour, are no longer applicable. Accordingly, if you feel the article should be deleted again, the appropriate action would be to make a fresh listing at WP:AFD in the normal way. This DRV will be closed shortly. Stifle (talk) 12:03, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

15.ai (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I think the AfD was closed erroneously. The reason given was There is a consensus among those editors that the sourcing is insufficient to demonstrate notability, while those supporting keeping, with one exception, suggest the case for keeping is weak or present arguments that get less weighting. This is insufficient to overcome the weight of editors supporting deletion., but this consensus that sourcing is insufficient to demonstrate notability was established before the new sources were found, and once the new sources that demonstrate significant coverage were found, the consensus was going the other way. I think it's unfortunate that the discussions had sockpuppets and canvassing, but given the popularity of the subject among younger audiences, it was something that was to be expected. I believe that the subject is notable due to the sources that I recovered in my research.

Initially, with only a few reliable sources available, several editors voted in favor of delete. After a week of discussion, the AfD for 15.ai was relisted for further discussion, and I did my due diligence to do some research to find additional sources that could be used for the article. On December 9, I made an edit displaying the research that I did over the weekend, finding several more reliable sources that would be viable to use to establish GNG, such as sources from United Daily News and a newsletter article from an IEEE-published author. . Ever since that edit, all of the subsequent votes have either been Keep votes or previous Delete votes being stricken. I'm confused by how the AfD was ultimately closed as Delete when it looked like the consensus was heading towards a Keep after the new sources were found. Specifically, after the new sources were found, Schützenpanzer changed their vote from Weak Keep to Keep, JarJarInks voted Keep, Aaron Liu expressed his Keep vote (but didn't bold it), and Sirfurboy struck his delete vote after a discussion with him regarding the newly found sources. Importantly, not a single editor expressed a delete vote after the new sources were found and the AUTOMATON source was considered to be reliable, and the editor who submitted the AfD has closed their account. Thank you for your time. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 18:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit: I'm also willing to put in the work to use the new citations in a new version of the article, or at least please reconsider relisting the discussion so that a better consensus of the new sources can be found. After taking a look at the other Deletion reviews, for convenience I've compiled some sources that are candidates to demonstrate reliability and significant coverage as discussed in the AfD (the first three are the new ones): ( the SIGCOV of these two were debated, but I feel like they're still relevant to the discussion) GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 19:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse A pretty badly socked discussion that has already been at DRV once - I think this was clearly the correct close. SportingFlyer T·C 19:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  It's unfortunate that the discussion had socks (though I believe they were only "likely" and not officially "confirmed"?), but still the discussion was headed towards a consensus that the new sources found were enough to establish notability, with one of the active Delete votes striking their vote as a result of the discussion. If I'm reading this correctly, the original decision was a "no consensus" before the closing admin changed it to a "close" only after it was brought to DRV. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 19:35, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think there was anywhere close to a consensus those new sources established notability. I also only see one voter who went from weak keep to a struck vote. The fact this was already overturned once also has no bearing on the result of the discussion. SportingFlyer T·C 20:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think there was anywhere close to a consensus those new sources established notability. But that's what I mean. The first closing decision was a No Consensus, but it was only changed to a Delete after the person who's still casting suspicion of me being a sockpuppet/SPA brought it here to DRV. There wasn't nearly enough discussion about the new sources. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 21:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  I made one comment about it. In this discussion. Now you're making multiple replies that are WP:POINTy or WP:BLUDGEON. Regardless of sourcing, there's WP:TNT which provides a clean slate for the article. – The Grid (talk) 17:24, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• As I noted at the close I gave considerably less weight to editors who were not extended confirmed given the socking and canvassing. While GregariousMadness correctly notes one delete was struck after relist, one keep whose basis was the previous AfD by Robert McClenon (which another keep explicitly mentioned) was also struck when he realized there had been socking/canvassing at the first AFD. So not all movement was towards keep. Crucially, the socking that was identified happened after the re-list. If I had been looking at this when Liz did, I too would have relisted and likely with a similar message. This new information, combined with the previous knowledge around canvassing, I think justifies my decision to weight non-EC differently and thus means the delete opinions expressed before the relist weigh in on the overall discussion differently. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I totally understand where the delete votes were coming from, and I thank you for your quick response! I don't blame you at all for weighing their opinions more due to all the chaos happening in the AfD, but I have to point out that those delete votes were why I spent the weekend researching for new sources that could be used for the article. I didn't want the discussion to be derailed by the suspected canvassing and sockpuppetry, so I tried to steer the discussion toward the right direction by submitting the new sources and giving a detailed explanation for each one. I don't think I'm an EC yet, so I don't think it's fair that my research was weighted differently just because of some bad apples (again, which were to be expected because of how popular the subject was among the younger crowd). And despite all that, after my research was posted to the AfD, there were no additional delete votes made. If at the very least, you could grant me some time to edit the article to include the new sources, I can spend the next week editing it further.

Also, I want to note that the socking was around only two accounts, which were likely to be socks, but wasn't officially confirmed. Socking is bad, of course, but two sketchy SPAs shouldn't nullify the entire argument that the subject meets GNG due to the new sources posted. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 20:28, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

It was much more than two socks. You can easily be considered a SPA when you have been involved with both AfD and SPI with an account related to the 1st AfD of 15.ai (pinging Ivanvector). – The Grid (talk) 20:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? I was first found as "Unlikely" to be associated, and then a subsequent investigation found that technically at best I would be a possilikely, but I already explained that I use a very generic setup that numerous other people use (and live in one of the most populous places in the United States). I haven't even edited the 15.ai article that much recently. Most of my edits were contributing to the mathematical theory of neural networks and various other mathematical articles. You can see my edit history to verify. Are you telling me that all the other people who voted Keep, including the editor who struck their Delete vote, are all socking? Also, I wasn't even present for the first AfD? GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 20:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (3 edit conflicts. 4th time lucky) as correctly within closer's discretion. I thanked Barkeep for the no consensus close and I thanked them again for the delete close. From which you may infer that I was content with either outcome and thought either was a reasonable assessment of the consensus. I would challenge the view that the new sources had demonstrated notability. I was the one who struck my delete vote, but I did not move to a keep. There were a couple of sources that some editors would have accepted as passing GNG. I did not think so, but decided to step away from pursuing the point further in recognition that a less manipulated discussion might actually have fared better. On socks, two socks were confirmed. Others were suspected but not confirmed. GregariousMadness was one of these latter ones but gave an explanation that I personally found very plausible, and to my mind is clearly not a sockpuppet. But in saying they were drawn to the subject by someone else they had met at college, they came a little close to being regarded as a meatpuppet. Yet I think they are here entirely in good faith, and we should not WP:BITE an interested and willing new editor, but not everyone was here in good faith. GregariousMadness may want to look at a page such as Generative artificial intelligence. This does not mention 15.ai, but could support a sentence or two on it (particularly the legal issues that saw the creator take it down). Their knowledge and research might also be useful for other unrelated improvements there. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  Honestly? I’m just feeling so sad and helpless over all this. I tried my best to address all of Brocade River Poem’s problems with the article last month starting in October, and time and time again other editors have questioned my intelligence or belittled me for not knowing the rules by heart. And even after I addressed the last of her problems over that weekend, she wrote back “Cheers!” and then immediately nominated the whole article for deletion despite me addressing all of her comments and her not saying anything about it at all. I can't even bring up the diff to show that because the whole talk page is gone. Then I gave my case on why the article should stay and did my extra research over the weekend, but because of people who can’t behave that’s out of my control, my arguments are being un-weighted along with those who agree with me, even though I was under the impression that an AfD wasn't a vote. And then when I’m finally proud of the research I did and was on my way to convince people with the new sources I found (because the Teahouse says that a good rule of thumb is 3 reliable articles that show significant coverage to pass GNG, so I thought I did something good), the whole article gets deleted out of nowhere, leaving me confused and sad and not sure what I did wrong or what I could have done better. And Brocade closed her Misplaced Pages account so I’m left thinking that she made her account just to try to get the article deleted and be all condescending toward me while doing it, but I don’t even know what I can do about it or if anything can be done about it because it’s all speculation.

  Ever since I came back to Misplaced Pages, it feels like my voice isn’t being heard, and it’s especially hard for someone on the spectrum and juggling grad school, so I just try to edit stuff that I’m comfortable with, and still random people come at me saying that I’m an SPA or a sockpuppet (like the person doing that in this DRV, who was also the person who asked the closing admin to reconsider the "no consensus" decision) and it’s been really bothering me, sometimes keeping me up and night because I’m so anxiously refreshing the page over and over again thinking that I might get banned at any moment. So much happened so quickly and I can’t keep up. I’ve been trying my best to address everyone’s comments but I go away for a week or two and the whole article goes from being slowly improved on to deleted and gone, just like that.

  All I’m asking is that I be given some time to improve the article because I just haven’t had much time lately, and I thought the no consensus decision would give me enough time to do that. I’ve been trying to learn how Misplaced Pages works but it feels impossible. To me, it feels so obvious that notability is established with the sources since other AfD have way worse sources than the best ones I found, so I’m left feeling like the whole process is random and arbitrary. It makes me so confused when something like Ai_sponge is a Keep but somehow one of the most influential early voice AI projects is a Delete. I want to be able to edit the article with the new sources that I found, but seeing that it’s all gone makes me feel like it’s not even worth re-submitting it if I have to start all over. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 21:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  I'll reply more on your talk page, but just to note, you can request the article be restored to your userspace if the deletion is endorsed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:17, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  And Brocade closed her Misplaced Pages account so I’m left thinking that she made her account just to try to get the article deleted and be all condescending toward me while doing it, but I don’t even know what I can do about it or if anything can be done about it because it’s all speculation.

  The truly ironic part of me seeing this weird conspiracy that is borderline the same accusations the sockfarm were making is that I came back here to say that after reviewing the newer sources you linked, I'd be inclined to change my vote to draftify the article if the AfD were still ongoing. Cheers, though. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 07:43, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• Relist. The AFD never came to a proper conclusion, with people still debating whether AUTOMATON should be considered a reliable source, as well as GregariousMadness's thorough research and discovery of the new sources. The first "No consensus" closure was probably justified, but the change to a "delete" jumped the gun, IMHO. Relisting to determine a consensus on the sources sounds reasonable. UnstableDiffusion (talk) 23:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you! I'm hoping more editors will consider the new sources because I spent a lot of time finding them. Please at the very least, if you are looking through this deletion review, consider a relisting to gain some more consensus on the new sources found. Again, I don't think it's fair that my effort is being overshadowed by the bad behavior of editors who have no interest in how Misplaced Pages actually works. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 01:01, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse the close, I was surprised to see that the AfD ended as No Consensus and then switched, but the closer's rationale made sense to me. While I am retiring from the project because I feel I was spending entirely too much time on Misplaced Pages, I kept my eye on the AfD that I created since I was told people might ask me direct questions. Even if AUTOMATON was a reliable source, that isn't a procedural error. The closer weighed Extended Confirms higher than others and came to the conclusion to Delete. The arguments raised by the Delete cadre was that the coverage provided was trivial. My initial concern about the seeming lack of notability was raised at the Good Article Reassesment, where I was told that the notability should be addressed at AfD, and that is the entire reason I nominated the article and predates any interaction with GregariousMadness. As for the editor who submitted the AfD has closed their account frankly, I do not see how my decision to retire has any bearing on whether the close should be re-evaluated. To my understanding, an article being deleted does not prevent it from one day returning to the encyclopedia, so if the creator wishes to improve it (which is their rationale for overturning the deletion), they can still do so in draftspace and run it through Articles for Creation. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 06:41, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

  The arguments raised by the Delete cadre was that the coverage provided was trivial. The argument had merit before the relisting, but the new sources I found demonstrated significant coverage (, , , ) but were ultimately ignored in favor of the EC's opinions, which were made before the new sources were posted. All I'm asking is for my sources to actually be examined, and again it feels like my voice isn't being heard. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 13:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse GregariousMadness makes the best case for 15.ai being notable -- though I'd discount the Medium source as our existing consensus is that it's generally unreliable as a self-published source -- but I don't see the coverage as significant and enduring enough to overturn a reasonable close. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 18:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Weak Endorse (involved) - Deletion Review is not AFD round 2, and the editors participating in the DRV are not closing the AFD, but reviewing the closer's close of the AFD. So the question is not whether we would have closed the AFD as the closer did, but whether the closer's judgment can be justified. If all good-standing !votes are counted equally, the close should be No Consensus. The closer says that they weighed the !votes from Extended-Confirmed editors more than from newer editors. In view of the history of this article, that is reasonable and proper. There is a long history of sockpuppetry associated with this article, the previous AFD, the Good Article review, and the discussions at WP:ANI. The presence of multiple single-purpose accounts is strongly suggesting of off-wiki canvassing. The web site evidently has a fan club on a third web site. The fans may not be familiar with Misplaced Pages guidelines of notability. I would have preferred to see the closer identify which of the voters were given a higher weighting and which were discounted, but after writing this statement, I see that that is unnecessary, which is why I am striking the Weak from the Endorse. The closer recognized the need to discount editors who were likely to have been recruited for the purpose (or fabricated for the purpose).
  • • I initially cast a Weak Keep !vote in the AFD based on the principle of respecting a previous AFD, and then struck that !vote when I saw that the previous AFD had been corrupted by sockpuppetry, and did not cast a replacement !vote.
  • Approve Submission of Draft for Review - The title has not been salted, and a good-faith editor may submit a draft. The draft should preferably be a clean start for the topic, starting over, without reliance on the previous history that was corrupted by sockpuppetry and other misconduct. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:31, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse (involved), I think this was a fair and accurate reading by the closing administrator, of a discussion which was badly-disrupted throughout its life. Daniel (talk) 19:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse - Of the non-delete-!voting participants, several expressed what were admittedly "weak" positions. More still either struck their keep !votes or had rationales "as per" editors who later struck their keep votes. The consensus was not going the other way as the appellant attests. Therefore, this was a reasonable close by the closer. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 20:26, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse (involved as voted at the afd and commented at the resulting SPI) proceduraly I see nothing wrong with the close, which is what DRV is for, DRV is for determining whether the close is compliant with rules etc. it is not afd round 2. Lavalizard101 (talk) 21:32, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. I'm the one who posted the deletion review, and I want to thank everyone here for your comments. I thought about this whole thing some more today with a cooler head, and I no longer will oppose the deletion. Still, I found a new motivation to do the subject justice, and I'm going to start a draft of a new article, all from scratch, and submit it to AfC when I think that it meets Misplaced Pages's standards. I'm still learning a lot, and this experience has opened my eyes a lot. Thanks everyone again for helping me out, especially the editors who were kind and patient with me despite my annoying posts. I'm going to get to work now! GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 00:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse Weak endorse reasonable closure. After discounting the sock votes, I see some level of consensus to delete. A second relist would have also been appropriate, but was in no way required. Frank Anchor 14:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Adding that I oppose G4 deletion for the current article regardless of the outcome of this discussion based on the good-faith creation of a new article that is likely sufficiently different than the previous version. (This is not quite a DRV topic, but I feel a need to include it in this discussion anyway). Advice was given to the appellant to go through the draft/AFC process, and that is exactly what was done.Frank Anchor 22:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I responded to a speedy tag on this and deleted it appropriately, reading this discussion. Immediately afterward User:GregariousMadness called on my talkpage and said not only had he created a newly sourced draft, but had convinced an AfC reviewer to pass it before the speedy tag. They asked me to undelete, and I did so, knowing folks in this process would like to know about the speedy passage at AfC. BusterD (talk) 18:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  As the AFC reviewer in question, I had no knowledge of this discussion prior to passing it, so I apologize if I caused any problems with this. I personally am on the side of the new draft meeting notability criteria, but I have no comment on the current discussion here due to being largely unfamiliar with the broader conversation and original 15.ai article. A quick read seems to indicate to me that the old article had severe problems, but I am unaware of how the stark the difference between the new and old articles is. The creator of the new article has left a source bank on the talk page showing their strongest sources, so I'd recommend editors here take a look at those and see if they feel they're up to snuff. Unsure what the process from here is since I haven't had something like this happen before as an AFC reviewer. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 18:56, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  I have added {{DRV}} to the article, which while not strictly true is true enough. I trust the closer to deal with appropriately depending on the outcome of this discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  I rewrote the whole article last night. You can attest to the fact that I didn’t have access to a draft of the original article because it was never sent to me, and I’m glad you never did because I didn’t want to be biased. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 19:16, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  It is true I never sent the article. I have for ease of comparison for DRV participants undeleted the previous article history. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for restoring the history. I have now looked at the deleted article history and the new version and it does look like a good faith rewrite, but clearly from the same primary author, so it shares similarities of structure and content. The sourcing appears to be largely the same, including sources discussed at the last AfD that were not in the article. I don't really know where we go from here. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:42, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  I wasn't the primary author of the original article. I only came back to Misplaced Pages a few months ago, and the article had already been written by then. When I left Misplaced Pages to focus on undergrad, this was the status of the article: . The content is completely written from scratch but shares vague similarities because I was the one who wrote the first paragraph of the lead and the paragraph introducing the characters (and also edited the article when I returned to Misplaced Pages), so while the structure might look similar, it was written without any reference.

  The sourcing is also very different. I added at least eight new sources that weren't found in the original article, including United Daily News, Analytics India Magazine, Inverse, GamerSky, a source written by a machine learning specialist, and a source written by a machine learning professor, and I also deleted multiple sources that were found to be overly unreliable. I also didn't include sources that had significant coverage but wasn't sure about its reliability, whose content could be verified by a different source anyway. I put great care into making sure that every sentence in the article was neutral, objective, and verifiable. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 10:04, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. If I did anything wrong by creating the article from scratch and sending it through AfC (which I was advised to do so by User:Liz and after Robert McClenon suggested that I remake the article since the name wasn't salted), please let me know. I was advised that it was done too quickly, but I only submitted the draft because the top infobox said that it would take up to 8 weeks for a draft to be approved, so I figured I would submit a good enough draft and continue editing it. I didn't expect it to get approved so quickly. As User:Pokelego999 above noted, I had no reference of the old article other than a couple of very small snippets I had saved on a text file while I was editing the original version of the article months ago. You can check the edit history to see how different the article reads now. I'm really, really, really trying my best to improve Misplaced Pages, and I'm committed to doing everything right this time. GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 21:07, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  Liz told you ...if the second AFD closure is endorsed and the article is kept deleted... That didn't happen. This discussion is still open. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 05:09, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  Everything is fine. This discussion is obviously not going to have any effect now and if someone wants a new AfD, they should start one. The only thing this discussion does is procedurally block the AfD (because of a Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy provision: A page on deletion review should not be listed on a deletion discussion page until the review closes ...). It needs to be closed so that a potential AfD can be opened. —Alalch E. 09:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• No action: Notional endorse, but this DRV is now moot and should be closed.—Alalch E. 09:24, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

15.ai (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This is the 2nd time an AfD has been tempered by off-site canvassing. (First AfD) I would have paused even to close this 2nd AfD. I would have thrown any input from canvassed parties into the trash. How exactly were E+C editors weighted here, even if they were self-interested parties? The refs provided skimmed the surface for anyone who provided a thorough source assessment table. Either a better look at the participants is needed or the no consensus result should be overturned. – The Grid (talk) 16:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC) – The Grid (talk) 16:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Closing admin here. I will note that the filer didn't discuss this with me before filing the request and so this could have been avoided. I had mis-attributed EC to a couple of editors who didn't have it, which I realized while typing this response. As such I agree there is a delete consensus and have reclosed accordingly. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:53, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Cartoys (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This deletion discussion had minimal participation and the nomination did not fully follow the procedures in WP:BEFORE; there are articles in the Wall Street Journal, Puget Sound Business Journal, and Chicago Tribune with significant coverage, not to mention a good number of Seattle Times articles in local archives. I believe this was a premature deletion and the article could be saved and improved. SounderBruce 00:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse, there were two relists where no one weighed in. This was by no definition premature. Did you ask the deleting admin for a copy to improve in draft space? That would make sense if you believe you can improve it to where a G4 no longer applies. Star Mississippi 01:26, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse - Correct interpretation of the consensus. No keep !votes were made in the discussion and the sources brought by the requestor here were not presented in the discussion. The nominator at AfD also does not show any indication of a failure in their BEFORE duties. The closer cannot be blamed for assuming that a third relist would have yielded similar results as the first two. Delete was the only option here. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 03:53, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  Allow a Relist per Extraordinary Writ, preferable to a restore due to involving NCORP (which is indeed a higher bar to meet than GNG). ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn, with my apologies I saw this, thought that it was absurd, and failed to say so at the time. I can only opine in so many deletion discussions, and mistakenly assumed that other editors would chime in, as this area is not a core interest of mine. I was wrong. The decision is wrong on the merits, no matter who participated and how, and if DRV isn't the right place to say that--what is? Jclemens (talk) 04:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Restore we now have sources. The Chicago Tribune one is solid. WSJ is light. The Puget Sound ones I can't see, but they look likely to be fine. Closer's close was okay, but now we have sources. Hobit (talk) 08:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Relist. The first relist never actually made it onto the log, so this was really only relisted once. Given the good-faith request above and the low participation, a second relist is reasonable; the sources are decent but not so good that I'd want to just overrule the AfD (especially since WP:NCORP is stricter). Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:33, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  I'd be fine with a relist too. But I note that until and unless N is changed, a corporation can meet GNG or the appropriate SNG, CORP, to be notable. Jclemens (talk) 09:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  As I was writing my comment, I very specifically thought: "if I say that, Jclemens is going to reply that NCORP doesn't override the GNG". I guess I've finally reached the exalted status of DRV regular. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 10:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  Welcome to the club! :-) Misplaced Pages works best when we all collaborate despite its imperfections. Jclemens (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

• Restore based on new sources available and the minimal participation at the AFD. Any user is able to renominate for deletion. Relisting is a good option as well and would be my second choice. Frank Anchor 16:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Restore. I find no fault in how the AfD was closed. However, limited participation in it allows us to treat the outcome as a soft-delete, even if it wasn't spelled out as such, and restore the article in response to any good faith request. Owen× ☎ 16:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse own close. And forgive any confusion, as I just now changed my name back to my old name. It is not the closers' job to do their own research and reach their own conclusion, but to do their best to read consensus. I don't see how, with the discussion that was held, there was a compelling argument made to keep. That being said the technical issue with the relisting and the apparent availability of sources that were somehow not found by the particpants in the AFD is enough to justify another relist. I think this is the first time I've had a close challenged by someone who did not actually participate in the deletion discussion. That would've been where to make the case. I utterly reject the notion that it was premature. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  No, your close was fine--the discussion sucked and utterly failed to find the sources that existed. I had more obligation, as someone who monitors DELSORT Washington, to go find and list the sources our appellant did, and I failed to. The process was correct, the result was wrong. Jclemens (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  No one here, with the possible exception of the appellant, is claiming that you erred in your close, Beeblebrox. The only question before us is what to do with the page now, seeing as we found new sources. Owen× ☎ 20:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse and Allow Recreation There is no error in the close. That said, if new sourcing can be added to the article that meet our notability requirements, there should be no objection to recreation by tenured editors in good standing. --Enos733 (talk) 20:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse - There is no error in the close. There was no need for the closer to relist the discussion, and there is no need to overturn the close and relist the discussion to allow new sources. It is not necessary to come to DRV to ask for permission to submit a new draft, or to create a new article subject to AFD. Is there some way to advise editors who have found new sources are deletion that they don't need to come to DRV? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  I would hope that a user with seventeen years of experience on the project would at least try just asking the deleting admin to restore it as a draft so they could improve it and return it to mainspace, but apparently jumping straight to DRV without talking to he closing admin first is the preferred option these days El Beeblerino 20:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

  In my opinion, editors often make a mistake in asking the deleting administrator to restore a deleted article to draft, or in asking DRV to restore a deleted article to draft, when they would be better off to start from scratch. If the article was deleted for lack of notability, the article that does not establish notability may not be useful. If the article was deleted as promotional, the deleted article is almost certainly not useful. Many DRV requests are unnecessary because permission is not needed to start a new draft if the title was not salted. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• Draftify. If the reasons for deletion can be demonstrated to be overcome, allow mainspacing. This is a higher requirement than overcoming G4. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse and restore only three participants, only two !votes - the closer had no choice, but I have no problem if this is soft restored. Since NCORP is involved I also support draftifying before restoring, but I haven't seen what was deleted. If it's not very good, I'd draftify. SportingFlyer T·C 20:59, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Restore. Given the list participation at the AfD, I believe that it is best to treat this as a soft deletion that can be restored on request of good faith editor citing sources. A new AfD can be started by any interested user, but I see no compelling reason to require one. As for the close itself, it was clearly within admin discretion and no blame should attach to Beeblebrox. Eluchil404 (talk) 00:37, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. The process was obviously followed correctly. An additional relist was an option but far from necessary. The outcome should not be overturned for any reason and should not be reinterpreted as a soft deletion. The page can be restored to draft. The DRV starter should have requested that.—Alalch E. 17:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Thamir Muhsin (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I'm not often astonished by closes. Half of the participants in this discussion asked for more time to look for sources (which clearly requires searching sources from the 1970s in Arabic) but it was completely ignored by the closer even though there was more of a consensus to relist than there was to delete (two poor quality delete !votes, one delete !voter who supported a relist, and one delete !voter who is often willing to change their vote if sources are presented (GiantSnowman). While the argument that it's been draftified and nothing more needs to be done could be considered, an open AfD allows for more eyes on a specific topic, and as such I'm asking for this to be relisted. SportingFlyer T·C 00:26, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

• I'll summarize what I said on my talk. Consensus on the existing sources was clear-cut. Multiple editors wanted time to find sources: they have it, as the article is in draftspace. Recreation is not disallowed, if new sources are found. Relisting achieves nothing except wasting the time of regular AfD participants, who have no evidence to examine, and AfD closers, who would be re-examining the same discussion I did. I don't see a constructive purpose to this DRV. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:56, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  Relisting achieves nothing except wasting the time of regular AfD participants - if I didn't vehemently disagree with this, I wouldn't have opened a DRV. There's a huge difference between shunting something into draftspace and to relisting a discussion. The latter allows for more time for other people to participate in the discussion and look for sources. No one in the discussion asked for it to be draftified, either! SportingFlyer T·C 01:05, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse close: There wasn't a single keep vote, there were four people who supported deletion for valid reasons. No one presented a reason for actually keeping, except that there simply must be something. More time was requested to find sources, but there wasn't really a good reason not to close the AfD. As mentioned in the close, there's nothing stopping someone from recreating the article. Also, your mention of someone who voted delete supporting a relist is inaccurate, they specifically stated they did not oppose it. You wanted time to find sources, you have it now with Draft:Thamir Muhsin. Frankly I'm astonished that this was brought to DRV considering this is the best middle ground someone could have asked for. Hey man im josh (talk) 00:57, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  Just because there wasn't a single bolded keep vote doesn't mean deletion was unopposed. SportingFlyer T·C 01:13, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  Deletes don't have to be unopposed. -- asilvering (talk) 01:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  There wasn't a rational given to keep and that's what's important, there's no other way this discussion could have been closed. Regardless, you got the time you asked for by the article being moved to draft space. That's 6 months of no edits before it's deleted, which is why I'm truly astonished that community time is going to be wasted on this DRV.

  Do you wish to address the misrepresention that you made in your statement where you stated half the people there asked for more time? I count two, and one person who said they didn't oppose a relisting. Hey man im josh (talk) 01:28, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  This is a very frustrating close. I'm frustrated an experienced administrator completely ignored the fact participants agreed this AfD would benefit from a relist. I'm frustrated the outcome was essentially to draftify when no one even discussed that option, which is a supervote. I don't want this to be draftified, I want an additional week of discussion where everyone would be invited to do a very difficult source search. And I'm frustrated the rationale to delete was that it wasn't "terribly fair" to AfD participants to leave it open, when two out of the four delete !votes were as lazy as you will see at an AfD, and of the other two one supported finding sources (and is someone who I know would change to keep if good sources were found) and the other did not object to a relist.

  Finally, three out of six participants supported a relist. That's half of the participants. I don't understand why that could possibly be considered a misrepresentation. SportingFlyer T·C 05:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  To be very clear, I was referring to fairness to AfD participants in general, not those who had !voted. It is not respectful of an editor's time to ask them to read through and participate in an AfD that has functionally reached consensus but is awaiting more evidence that may or may not be found. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:51, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  It hadn't functionally reached consensus, though, not unless you overly weight two delete !votes with a combined thirteen words between them. Most of the discussion was a discussion about how sources might be found, and discussion was still active, with most of the discussion occurring in the last 24 hours. SportingFlyer T·C 07:15, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  One editor saying "No objection to a relist" is not the same as asking for more time. GiantSnowman 16:08, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse - The closer correctly interpreted the consensus of the participating editors that the article should be deleted. Of the non-delete-!voting participants, the first questions the AfD nominator on their WP:BEFORE check, but does not provide their own specific sources to the discussion that would indicate that the nominator failed in their BEFORE duties. The second (the requestor here at DRV) admits that they cannot find any sources. Both of their comments can be more or less boiled down to WP:MUSTBESOURCES and are therefore weaker than the arguments in the delete !votes. A relist would be have inappropriate as although one of the !delete voters sympathized with the MUSTBESOURCES arguments enough to express a lack of opposition to a relist, they did not go so far as to abandon their position. Allowing draftification is an appropriate compromise that both respects the outcome of the discussion and allows those attesting that sources must exist more time and less stress with which to find them. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 03:27, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse as a reasonable implementation of the consensus of the participants, except for a detail. The close says Delete, but the actual action was Draftify, which was a reasonable alternative to deletion, and has almost the same effect as Relist. A Relist would have given seven days to find sources. Draftification gives six months to find sources, and longer if the draft is tweaked during that time. Proponents of an article for the subject have a longer window of opportunity to find sources than they would have with a Relist. Maybe the close should be changed on the record to Draftify, which is a mere matter of paperwork. This was a better close than a relist. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  I see a small but important distinction between a consensus to draftify - typically associated with TOOSOON cases, CRYSTAL cases where the topic is likely to be notable, or clearly notable cases where the article is not policy-compliant - and a consensus to delete, after which the article is draftified as a courtesy to one or more editors. This is the latter case, for me. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 12:26, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse per Robert. GiantSnowman 12:28, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  I will add - the article was draftified over 2-and-a-half days ago and precisely ZERO sources have been found and added - not even considering all the time during the AFD itself. GiantSnowman 16:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

  the article was draftified over 2-and-a-half days ago and precisely ZERO sources have been found and added – I'd say that's mainly because I haven't looked for sources yet. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

  OK, so when do you expect to? When you asked for more time, how much did you need? GiantSnowman 13:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

  @BeanieFan11: I have no issue with you taking as much time as you need. Given that it's been 11 days since you first came to the AfD, though, it's a clear demonstration that draftification, and not relisting, was the optimal outcome. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I'm satisfied with the draftify outcome, although I was surprised initially with the closure. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse but add a post-closure note with the link to the draft. That way, interested parties are more likely to find and edit the draft. I agree that this close was better than a relist as it gives as much time as necessary to find and evaluate any new sources through the draft/AFC process, rather than a week to evaluate sources that may or may not exist. Worst case here, no valid sources come up and the draft will be abandoned and G13ed, which is a low-level risk. Frank Anchor 14:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

  That is a good idea: I will add such a link. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse although I understand SF's frustration because a mainspace article is much more likely to get the attention re: sourcing than one in draft space and systemic bias + pre internet is a huge issue here. That said, there was no sourcing to support retention. While I don't agree that draftification was a supervote anymore than redirect is when the closer finds that ATD, I think in this case it's the better outcome since this otherwise is likely a delete without you and other editors having access to the article to improve it. Star Mississippi 01:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse Closer provided a detailed statement, including an offer to provide a copy of the deleted article to anyone who asked for it. It's a perfectly reasonable close. El Beeblerino 20:30, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse (involved) - Draftification is clearly a reasonable option in cases where editors are seeking more time to look for sources but deletion is otherwise the clear consensus. Suriname0 (talk) 01:19, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse in line with the clear consensus. Can be reconsidered when sources are actually presented, as opposed to a vague promise to look for them. Stifle (talk) 09:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  We ended up finding a lot of possible sources at Draft talk:Thamir Muhsin, so we can probably close this discussion now. I'm still really unhappy with the way this was handled for a number of different reasons. I think the thing which frustrates me the most is just how lazy the AfD nomination and two of the delete !votes were, and I still feel my participation and BeanieFan11's participation was ignored because we didn't explicitly vote in the discussion. At least there's a pathway back to mainspace though. SportingFlyer T·C 19:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  Why? No sources were located during the AFD timespan, and you've only been able to find sources many days later which appear to be under a different spelling of his name! GiantSnowman 20:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  The AfD was open for a week, most of the discussion was within 48 hours of the close, the entire nomination was flawed ("non-notable academic" for a former national football team coach!), only one delete !vote even discussed a BEFORE search, and we would have found sources within the second week probably without needing to delete an article. SportingFlyer T·C 20:53, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Bruce Hall (musician) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Unsure as to why Bruce's page got deleted, I am reaching out as a rep of Bruce. 2601:5CD:C100:DA10:B0AA:52CB:1381:B68F (talk) 14:56, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse as a reasonable close and the only reasonable close of the deletion discussion. It was redirected in place of deletion because the separate article was inadequately sourced and did not support individual musical notability apart from the band. Any editor may submit a more complete draft for review, with reliable sources and providing information beyond his role in REO Speedwagon, provided that any conflict of interest must be declared. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:04, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse A draft isn't necessary, nor is our permission. to un-redirect and expand, provided a non-COI editor wants to do that--and there should be someone willing to. A draft is indeed the appropriate step for a COI editor. At the same time, I question the accuracy of the past AfD--it happened right as REO Speedwagon was in the news for the Hall/Cronin rift and cessation of touring, and I see plenty of Google News coverage for Hall--there's no question in my mind that at the time of the AfD there was an adequate amount of sourcing for Hall's individual notability, and the AfD outcome, though clear, was wrong on the merits. Jclemens (talk) 20:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse - The closer correctly interpreted the consensus of participating editors that the article's subject did not meet Misplaced Pages's notability policies as an individual, and that info about this subject that is known would be better suited for inclusion in another article at this time. As Robert McClenon states, this does not disqualify the subject from a future article if better sourcing can be found. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 21:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse The reason this was deleted is because we couldn't find enough information specifically on Bruce that was written by a secondary source (non-interviews, for instance) to allow him to have a stand-alone page on the website, but he's notable as part of being in his band, so we've redirected the page there and have included information about him there. If that's incorrect, it's possible a new article could be created if good sources are found. SportingFlyer T·C 23:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse/speedy close This forum is for challenging the closers' interpretation of consensus, not for just saying "I don't get it and I represent the article subject". This should be closed. El Beeblerino 20:34, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Controversy over Baidu (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

I am a course instructor supervising students writing and translating articles here for 10+ years and this is the first time I've seen a properly translated article (with references, interlanguage links, etc.) subject to speedy deletion (under strange rationale - G10, attack page). The page in question was just a translation of criticism of Chinese company Baidu from Chinese Misplaced Pages (zh:对百度的争议 - wikidata:Q10956638), perfectly normal for large companies - see Category:Criticisms of companies and articles like Criticism of Google or Criticism of Starbucks. It is simply the main article for the subsection present in our article at Baidu#Controversies. Now, the name should probably be Criticism of Baidu rather Controversy over Baidu (although we also have MSNBC controversies or Controversies of Nestlé - some name standardization of entries in this category may be in order...), but there is no good reason to speedy this. If someone dislikes the page, WP:AFD could be used, but I am pretty certain the article would be kept, per numerous precedents (dozens of articles in criticism of companies category). With all due respect, whoever speedy tagged it and deleted it needs a WP:TROUT and a refresher of policies. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:24, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. Could the page be undeleted for non-admins to review? I don't see any reason that a page about controversies related to a company would automatically be considered an attack page, but I didn't see the content of this particular page. Dclemens1971 (talk) 05:26, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• If an admin could either temp undelete this or confirm it's an attack page that doesn't require undeletion, that would be fantastic. SportingFlyer T·C 05:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn G10 I don't need to see it, I've disagreed enough with Piotrus in deletion discussions over the years to know that he knows what is and isn't an attack page, so it can go to AfD if someone disagrees. Jclemens (talk) 06:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn G10 assuming good faith that it is a faithful translation of the Chinese page, this shouldnt have been speedily deleted. If there are other concerns, send it to AfD and let the community decide if it should have a place here. DarmaniLink (talk) 08:56, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Now that the page is visible, which it was not at the time of writing, I do not have to make assumptions about the content. I still stand by that this was not a G10 candidate. If there are notability concerns about the coverage of the controversies as a whole, send it to AfD, however, an overview a summary of controversies in a psuedo-list is a copyediting problem rather than a notability issue. The language used is strong and literal, however, that is inherited from the phrasing of the source language, and an artifact of it being a translation of another article. To me, this means draftify for further copyediting, but an attack page it is not. DarmaniLink (talk) 07:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. After reviewing the deleted page, I completely understand the action of the deleting admin. The page is not like the other "Criticism of ____" pages mentioned by the appellant. It does not attempt to place these controversies in appropriate context or treat them encyclopedically. It's just a laundry list of negative content about the company, and it appears to be based on original research as the sources presented describe individual instances, not covering Baidu-related controversies as an overall topic. (As a translation, it has several significant defects as well.) I think there's probably some room for interpretation here; another admin might have reasonably decided this didn't meet the definition of an attack page, but given what's here (content that exists primarily to disparage...its subject) a G10 is definitely within discretion. Dclemens1971 (talk) 14:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  This matches my thinking when I tagged the page for G10, including the "another admin might disagree" bit which is why I didn't use my own admin tools to push the delete button. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse I do think that was a G10 within discretion. There are also salvageable parts, so a draft might be a good idea if it's allowed, but it shouldn't be in mainspace as is. SportingFlyer T·C 17:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse per Dclemens1971 comments above. The fact it is a translation from the Chinese WP is irrelevant, the existence of an article in another language WP is not a guarantee there should be a similar article in the English WP. --John B123 (talk) 21:45, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse It sure looks like the only purpose of that page was to disparage its subject. --Here2rewrite (talk) 23:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Comment (nom). Having read the comments above, I am sure we can remove any parts that are based on weak sources/OR if such parts are tagged, and rewrite content that is not neutral if it is likewise tagged (and feel free to be WP:BOLD and nuke stuff). I don't think this is bad enough to be WP:TNTed, however, and the topic seems notable per coverage (ex. ) --_{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 03:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Comment (nom). I've notified WP:CHINA and WP:COMPANIES about this discussion.--_{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 03:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn G10. I don't think it was ready for mainspace, but I don't think this could reasonably be characterized as an attack page. The fact that it came through the translation process without sufficient encyclopedic context for EN readers is an important concern but doesn't make it speedy deletion material. I think draftification (or re-userfication) would have been a more appropriate remedy. As a professional translator and occasional Misplaced Pages translator, I think I understand what went sideways here. IMO Misplaced Pages translation is best approached as transcreation, and by the same token a faithful translation is mostly wasted effort; it's better to just use the source article as a jumping-off point so you can focus on the challenges of the target wiki-culture rather than on the challenges of the translation process. I am not here to cast aspersions on anyone who is willing to contribute such an enormous amount of necessary and important work. But much of the content of even the best translation, especially of a substantial article like this, will need to be removed or reworked before it can survive in mainspace on EN wiki. -- Visviva (talk) 04:10, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn speedy and send to AFD. It was not unreasonable to tag this for speedy deletion, or to action that tag. Absent context (and there was none provided in the article), it does seem to "exist primarily to disparage" and raises various other questions. But SD is for uncontroversial, clear deletions and this is not the case here. In particular, it seems there is content that is salvageable. So send it through normal processes to figure out what best to do. No trouting for anyone needed, just people acting reasonably (in creating, tagging, and deleting) and now needs sorting out. Martinp (talk) 12:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn G10. Speedy deletion is for uncontroversial and clear cases, which this is not. It can go to AFD if needed, but it is clear that the uncontroversialness criterion isn't met. Stifle (talk) 14:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn speedy I can understand why it was deleted as a G10, but per Stifle, this isn't clear enough to be a speedy. It does lack needed nuance in places, but that's fixable. Hobit (talk) 15:41, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn G10. This does not come off as "exclusively" an attack page. Individual sentences that come off as attacks can be removed via editing. Frank Anchor 17:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn. G10 doesn't exclusively cover BLPs, but the wording of WP:Attack page makes it pretty clear that they're the priority juridstiction for the criterion, implying that the bar should be very high for other pages to be deleted under it. This article is pretty bad (it's translated worse than Piotrius makes it out to be, and seems to include of WP:NOTNEWS content) but in terms of prose or sourcing or severity of allegations its no worse than other Criticism of <corp> pages. Mach61 00:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn G10, draftify. Seems more like NEGATIVESPIN than ATP. Rather more detail than seems necessary in many of the subheadings. The only bit that seems more like an attack that criticism of poor quality control is the final lvl2, ==Title==: there's already a critic quoted elsewhere in the prose referring to the company by the unkind pun 百毒; we could just explain it once and move on. Folly Mox (talk) 01:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn G10. I really don't see how this qualifies for WP:G10, which only applies when pages serve no other purpose than to disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity. And there is a purpose to that page—controversies surrounding a large company, like Baidu, may well be encyclopedic, just as we have Criticism of Microsoft and Criticism of Tesla, Inc.. The telos of this page is not to attack; even if it is a spinout of material that doesn't reflect well upon the subject, that doesn't ipso facto create an attack page when the primary aim of the page is to cover encyclopedic content. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 08:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn G10. It looks like WP:NEGATIVESPIN explicitly allows this kind of article. It also looks like, as Folly Mox pointed out, G10 is aimed mainly at BLPs. A lot of this article is cruft cited to social media with no lasting significance, and those parts should be removed, but the topic is clearly notable and appropriate for the encyclopedia. Toadspike 21:12, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

2024 Duki coal mine attack (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Firstly, AfD is not the right forum for MERGE or REDIRECT discussion. Let me also remind that it's WP:NOTAVOTE.

Secondly, the over a dozen references within the article itself assert notability while fulfilling and meeting the WP:GEOSCOPE, WP:DIVERSE and WP:NCRIME criteria of WP:NEVENT which reads:

"Coverage should be in multiple reliable sources with national or global scope."

Thirdly, at the expense of being called out for WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I'll still say that having articles on street brawl and stabbing incidents in the West but not one on a terrorist incident that occurred outside of an active warzone in the Global South is a pure example of WP:GEOBIAS. — Mister Banker (talk) 19:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Weak endorse Restore/allow recreation First, AfDs frequently result in outcomes that are short of deletion, such as merges or redirects. Second, I agree with you on the WP:GEOBIAS. However, I'm not voting to overturn for two reasons: first, consensus was generally against keeping by a 2:1 margin, and second, it's difficult to distinguish this from an event which doesn't qualify for its own page, because WP:LASTING was not clearly met. I don't think it's that far away from a keep, though, and it can be merged into the target article and spun off again if additional coverage is found. SportingFlyer T·C 00:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Where does it say that WP:LASTING is a mandatory criteria that must be met? — Mister Banker (talk) 06:17, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Misplaced Pages:What_Wikipedia_is_not#NEWS: Misplaced Pages considers the enduring notability of persons and events. "Enduring" is often the key word in deletion discussions for articles about temporal events. SportingFlyer T·C 18:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I've updated to "restore/allow recreation." There's nothing wrong with the AfD, but I'm satisfied there's been enough continued coverage that this no longer fails WP:NOTNEWS. SportingFlyer T·C 18:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. AfD a poor forum for a merge discussion, but is not the wrong forum. AfD is the right forum on whether to turn a page into a redirect. Sources can assert notability but that notability, i.e. real-world notability, is not wiki-notability. There was a rough consensus to stop the article from being live, redirecting was a valid WP:ATD, and the closer noted that the content can be merged from history.—Alalch E. 01:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  As far as the consensus is concerned, there were 4 Keep, 2 Merge and 2 Delete !votes (excluding the nominator) before @Liz: decided to re-list the AfD discussion for the second time on 28 October. So, there was a rough consensus to Keep the article at that point in time. — Mister Banker (talk) 06:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Youre actually admitting there was not consensus to keep at that point. This is based on numbers and not looking into the reasoning (since AFD is not a vote). Four keep !votes and five delete/WP:ATD !votes (including the nom) is not consensus. A relist at that point was a reasonable choice. Frank Anchor 13:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. It was a poor nomination, people should not go to AfD with a vague merge proposal. And doing so is usually a train wreck. However, in this case the discussion recovered and I agree that it is a consensus to redirect. AfD is not not good for merges, but is perfectly good with redirection. Elements in the discussion were strong on the points that the article should not continue, and that there is no great ongoing need to merge anything, as the content is already at the target. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. AfD is the perfect place for redirect discussions. For poorly sourced articles that have a natural redirect target, a redirect is the best outcome. Once you discard the VAGUEWAVE !votes in this AfD, the redirect result reflects consensus well. Owen× ☎ 11:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Care to clarify how the article was poorly sourced? — Mister Banker (talk) 16:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  I would gladly do so if this were AfD. But this is DRV, where we are asked to review consensus among AfD participants, not to rerun the AfD. Owen× ☎ 07:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. Many of the keep !votes were weak while the redirect/merge !votes were more based in policy. Consensus to not keep appeared to form after the final relist. Frank Anchor 15:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• Question for User:Mister Banker - What is the right forum for redirect discussions? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  In my opinion, the article's talkpage. This attack has also received WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE, thus merits an article. (see: ANI, DAWN) — Mister Banker (talk) 13:44, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  I personally think those articles clear the continued coverage issue, and would vote to restore. SportingFlyer T·C 18:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse - Nominator's statement Where does it say that WP:LASTING is a mandatory criteria that must be met makes it clear to me that they do not understand that routine events like this do not have or get enduring coverage, AFD is often the venue where the consensus for merging/redirection emerges so the closer was correct in redirecting this article. - Ratnahastin (talk) 06:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Speedy Endorse - Appellant has been blocked as a sockpuppet, but ...
  • Allow Submission of Draft by a good-standing editor for review, using additional sources listed above. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

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