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Revision as of 20:42, 1 April 2014 editLighthouse01 (talk | contribs)149 edits →Reporting User:Lighthouse01: no need for report... i am stopping edit war, you can't argue with asshole JorisV, a macedonian who has no clue... sorry for this language...← Previous edit Latest revision as of 02:37, 26 December 2024 edit undoNil Einne (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers73,012 edits →Incivility, aspersions, WP:NOTHERE from Cokeandbread: ReplyTag: Reply 
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== Disruptive editing and WP:TALKNO by ] ==
As this page concerns INCIDENTS:
Place the PAGENAME of the incident in the header.


The main issue with this editor at the moment is disruptive editing based on continuous abuse of ] and ]. Issues began when this editor . They did it and and .
Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header.
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Do not place links in the section headers.
(Immediately UNDER the header is preferred).
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Entries may be refactored based on the above.
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Instead of starting a discussion on the talk page of the article, the user came to ] to let me know of their opinion of my contributions. When I on the talk page of the relevant article, the user and according to their POV. When I let them know that this was highly inappropriate according to ], both and , they ] stating {{tq|ever since the stupid Misplaced Pages Dec. 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, to able to edit or view Misplaced Pages at all from my home computer, I have to use an indirect method which involves a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool. I couldn't even really see your signature that way, and so didn't know to try to avoid changing it|q=y}}, which I had never heard of. In any case, they kept reverting the content supported by the reliable source, they also kept attempting to apply their POV to the discussion heading and and . I that I had and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, and they went ahead and .
== New editor with CIR, BLP, COPYVIO issues ==
<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)</small>


:The other user in this case is ]? This looks like a content dispute over whether the article is on the English version of a German-Arabic dictionary or the dictionary itself. ] (]) 15:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Could someone please have a nice, quiet chat with brand new editor ]? He's been adding copyvio images to pages (IMDB images uploaded to Commons as "own work" and then added to article here), adding unsourced non-consensus material regarding the death of ], creating sub-stub articles with a single sentence and no references, and so on, and seems reluctant to listen to what's on his talk page -- instead he just bulls ahead. ] (]) 01:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::Yes the is indeed about ]. I see the content dispute as stemming from the fundamental conduct issue, which has manifested itself most egregiously with insisting on violating ] repeatedly even after I that I had and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, after which they went ahead and . ] (]) 16:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:I just want to bring , which I think could possibly be a self-portrait, to the attention of whoever talks to the editor. ] (]) 01:28, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
:::The heading dispute is between a date heading, and a descriptive heading? that's not really reformulating your entry. ] (]) 17:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
::I thought that this person might be ] at first, but the pattern isn't quite right. Sigh, I'm becoming a jaded admin seeing socks everywhere. :( -- ''']'''] 01:32, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::::It's a conduct issue. ] (]) 19:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I guess that one of the drawbacks of the job, becoming jaded.<p>The young man just dropped (not my talk page), so he's certainly seeing the comments I'm leaving for him, even if he's not taking them into account. ] (]) 01:35, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::But what conduct issue? TALKNO doesn't forbid changing headings. In fact the wider guideline makes it clear it's perfectly acceptable "{{tqi|Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc. Whenever a change is likely to be controversial, avoid disputes by discussing a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant.}}" To be blunt, if you don't want editors changing the headings of sections you start, don't use such terrible headings. I definitely recommend you stay away from ANI since changing headings is quite common here. ] (]) 06:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::It's on the record, BMK. '''You have been warned.''' Anyway, I'll see if maybe another person chiming in helps, sometimes people think that if one person is addressing their misbehavior, it's just some jerk, but if someone else comes in maybe there's a legitimate complaint (although it can also mean the second person is the jerk's henchman or something). But it's worth a try. -- ''']'''] 01:43, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::Actually I missed the signature issue. That's far more concerning unfortunately lost IMO partly because you concentrated on silly stuff. ] (]) 06:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Doesn't seem to have made any difference - he created two new crude unsourced sub-stub articles. I'm afraid that this is going to come down to a competency block, since I'm not sure that the editor is understanding what he's being told. ] (]) 02:44, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::&lrm;إيان: I suggest you stop messing around with the section heading since it's a distraction which could easily lead to you being blocked. But if AnonMoos changes your signature again, report it and only that without silliness about section headings, mentioning that they've been warned about it before if needed. ] (]) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::One step forward, but then a step sideways: The editor is not uploading copyrighted pictures to Commons now, just very bad photos of streets taken from inside a car. These purport to be (and may well be, I don't know) streets named after the subjects of article - i.e. "Pennell lane" for ] - and they are being added to to the subject's articles without citational support or explanation. He also continues to add unsupported birth and death dates to biographical articles - again, these '''''might''''' be accurate, and he might be getting then from a source, but no source is listed. There's also been no response on the talk page to the various comments, including now a final warning from another editor. ] (]) 17:15, 26 March 2014 (UTC)


I wrote a long and detailed explanation on his user talk page as to why the date-only header is basically useless in that context, but he's still for some peculiar reason fanatically determined to keep changing it back. Frankly, I've basically run out of good-faith reasons that make any sense -- except of course, his apparently unshakable belief that he has certain talk-page "rights", which according to Misplaced Pages guidelines he does '''not''' in fact have (outside of his own personal user talk page)... ] (]) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
{{out}} from the editor, but it's not encouraging. Under the section title "I'm tyring to he helpful": "Stop talking to me I created Misplaced Pages and I forbid blocking my edits."<p>Unfortunately, I think it's time for a competency block per ] and ]. ] (]) 20:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::Well, that's not entirely fair, ]. He actually said "I'm trying to be helpful". Not that I'm against Atama's block or anything. Good block. ] &#124; ] 19:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC).
:::Bish (may I call you that?), I think it's quite fair when "I'm trying to be helpful" is paired with "Stop talking to me" (discussion is the essence of collegiality and impossible without it), "I forbid blocking my edits" and "I created Misplaced Pages", which are both either trolling or delusional. (P.S. If you're responding to the misspelling of "trying", that was a typo on my part.) ] (]) 23:48, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Yes, I assumed it was a typo, after I checked. But I was actually responding to the misspelling of "trying" as "tyring" ''and'' the misspelling of "be" as "he", in a quote of five words. I'm sorry, but the impression I got before checking (which not everybody does) was that you were showing up the user as a careless typist, and I didn't think it should be left without comment, to make the same impression on others. But it's moot, the user has been blocked, and not for careless typing. I call you BMK, so feel free to call me anything you like, down to and including "B". ] &#124; ] 17:26, 29 March 2014 (UTC).
::::::I'm not a touch-typist, so my rate of typos goes up the faster I try to type. Please rest assured that I was attempting not to characterize Daffyduck1234's typing or spelling, but to point out the content of their talk page comment, which was rather strange.<p>As you say, water under the bridge at this point. ] (]) 00:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:Marnette D, whose opinion I respect, . This is quite possible, as at some point extreme incompetency and trolling are very difficult to tell apart. It actually doesn't matter all that much, though, since the end result is the same: time and effort are sucked up and the project is not improved. ] (]) 20:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::<small>Well, you know what they say about ]... ]&nbsp;]] 20:25, 26 March 2014 (UTC)</small>


:{{replyto|AnonMoos}} I don't see a problem with changing the heading but why on earth did you change their signature multiple times ? That is indeed a clear violation of ] since the signature was perfectly valid per ]. In fact your change was far worse since it changed a perfectly valid signature which would take other editors to the contributor's talk page and user page into an invalid one which lead no where. If you're using some sort of plugin which does that, it's your responsibility to manage it better so it doesn't do that ever again especially if you're going to edit talk pages where it might be common. If you're doing that intentionally, I suggest you cut it out or expect to be indeffed. ] (]) 06:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
===Sockpuppetry===
::], this is not good to see. Don't rewrite or reformat other editor's signatures. There is no reason to be doing this unless you are trying to provoke the other editor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
I've just run out of AGF. The brand new editor ] is quite obviously a sock of Daffyduck1234, making the same edits on ], re-creating the speedily deleted sub-sub-stub ] (which I've again marked for speedy deletion). Competence or trolling, eh, who cares, the editor isn't going to listen, and isn't going to play by the rules, so both accounts should be indef blocked. ] (]) 21:01, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::: For what it's worth, AnonMoos stated earlier that the changing of the signature was a unintentional technical issue, due to his use of some "non-standard tool" in accessing the internet . This seems plausible, as similar apparently unintentional changes to non-Ascii character data have happened in edits of his before (e.g. ). But if he knew of this issue, it's rather disappointing he let it happen again some days later . Equally disappointing is the extremely aggressive rhetoric and acerbic tone with which he has been escalating this essentially harmless, good-faith content dispute from the beginning. ] ] 10:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:I concur about the trolling. The "final warning" was received at 16:12, 26 March 2014 and after that warning, they performed edits that added incorrect information then immediately reverted, at ] and ]. It looks to me like taunting, where they can say "I did it again but I reverted right away so you can't touch me". In light of this, I've blocked Daffyduck1234 indefinitely, and I'm also going to block the sockpuppet. -- ''']'''] 21:05, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::::I just can't fathom what tool they're using to get around the HTTPS requirement to edit Misplaced Pages securely. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks. An odd case, I wonder if we'll see the editor again? ] (]) 21:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::Should be impossible as it's required to even access the site in the first place according to ]]<sup>] </sup> 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::What I wonder is whether we've seen the editor ''before''. My sockpuppet radar went off immediately when I first read this report (as I said then), but I tried to exercise ] and then the person started using a sock, so maybe my instinct wasn't so much paranoia. -- ''']'''] 21:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::::<strike>Looking at his talk page it's been going back to at least 2011]<sup>] </sup> 16:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)</strike>
::::Their areas of interest seem rather tightly defined, so it might be worthwhile poking around. There's been a fair amount of back-and-forth about the Margie Hines date of death issue, but I can't recall if there was socking involved. ] (]) 21:46, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
:Guys, I do not deliberately set out to modify signatures, and when it happens, I am not usually aware of doing so. As I've already explained before in several places, since the December 2019 encryption protocol upgrade (NOT 2011!), the only way I can edit (or view) Misplaced Pages at all from home is by an indirect method which is not fully Unicode-compliant. To change this, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection, which would permanently disconnect my older computer, which I still use almost every day.
:::::There was indeed socking, and I was in the middle of reporting it (memory starts failing as you get older, you know). It's not impossible that our friend was , who stopped editing a month ago, and who earlier admitted to being . My description of the writing style of the master fits: <blockquote> distinctive style of writing: one line paragraphs, infrequent use of caps, use of ampersand and other informalities, and they generally don't sign their posts. Their edits are generally helpful, but their writing is weak, and their attitude on talk pages a bit confrontational with overtones of ownership.</blockquote> That's not quite enough to say it's a match, but it's pretty intriguing. My AGF tank's a bit empty at the moment, so I'll say that it's possible to interpret a one month gap in editing as an attempt to make their edits too stale for CU to use as comparison -- but, of course, there have been other gaps of that size and longer in the editing history. ] (]) 22:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
:Meanwhile, this thread has been set up so I can't add a comment to it from home without affecting Unicode characters, so I was unable to reply here for 36 hours or so. If I'm silent in the future, it will be for the same reason. ] (]) 01:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
{{out}} Now he's editing as ]. Undoubtedly the same person as Daffyduck1234 and Sandboxxxxx. ] (]) 00:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
::Misplaced Pages uses Unicode characters (] encoding). Anyone who cannot edit without corrupting such characters should '''not edit'''. ] (]) 03:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:Two more unsourced sub-sub-stubs created (] and ]). SPI opened at . Can someone please salt ] until this blows over? ] (]) 01:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Whatever, -- I was using them perfectly fine until December 2019, and still use them perfectly fine on public WiFi, but in December 2019 a requirement was imposed that you can't access Misplaced Pages '''at all''' unless you can handle encryption algorithms and protocols that weren't introduced until the mid-2010s. I have a 2012 web browser on my home computer that handles UTF-8 just fine, but 2012 simply wasn't good enough for the Misplaced Pages developers -- you had to have software that was almost up to date as of 2019, or you would be abruptly totally cut off. If you can drag up the relevant archive of Village Pump Technical, I and others complained at the time, but our concerns were not listened to or considered in any way. The basic attitude of the developers was that if you weren't running almost up-to-date software, then screw you, and if your computer is not capable of running almost up-to-date software, then double screw you! The change was announced for January 2020, but was actually implemented in mid-December 2019, apparently because they were so eager and anxious to start excluding people. It wasn't one of Misplaced Pages's finer moments. Since that time, I have had to use an indirect method to access Misplaced Pages from my home computer, and I don't feel particularly guilty about it (other people's obnoxious behaviors in 2019 have done away with most of the guilt I might feel)... ] (]) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::And another ]. ] (]) 01:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
::::...] was created in ''1994'', and became an official specification in '''2000''', not "mid-2010s". I'm not sure what 2012 web browser you're using, but if it's not able to handle HTTPS not being able to access Misplaced Pages with it is the least of your browsing concerns, given that 85-95% of the World Wide Web defaults to it now. Also I hate to think of how many security holes your ancient computer has. I'm going to be honest: with a brower setup that old it isn't safe for you to be on the web ''at all'', and the security hole that lets you access Misplaced Pages without using a secure connection should be fixed, because that is ''not'' working as intended and is - as mentioned - a security hole. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::And now ]. ] (]) 01:35, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::You unfortunately don't know what you're talking about. New ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL METHODS have been introduced ''within'' HTTPS from time to time. I was using HTTPS perfectly happily until December 2019, when the developers arbitrarily ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. ] (]) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::And indef blocked by NawlinWiki. ] (]) 01:44, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
::::And even leaving that aside, as Johnuniq mentions - if you can't edit without corrupting Unicode characters, and by your own admission you ''don't know when it happens'', you shouldn't be editing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
{{out}} The sub-stub article ] just deleted by NawlinWiki was previously deleted on 22 August 2007 by Lectonar. Could an admin take a look at that deleted article and report who created it? It might help figure out if Daffyduck1234 is a known puppetmaster. ] (]) 01:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
:Similarly ] was previously deleted two times. Knowing who created those two would be good. ] (]) 02:02, 27 March 2014 (UTC) :::::This is probably a reference to when Misplaced Pages started requiring TLS 1.2 (because earlier versions were deprecated). Anyone who was/is still on Windows XP at that point couldn't connect any more. ] (]) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::I'm not talking about when the update happening, I'm talking about how you have known about this issue, and have been getting complainants about it since <strike>2011</strike>and are still not taking any steps to do anything about it. What kind of internet connection would not support your PC? What on earth are you even using? Dial-Up? Because that still is supported by even Windows 10. ]<sup>] </sup> 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Marcus powell was originally created by {{User|Matt0012}} on 22 August 2007. Kate Wright was originally created by {{User|BoopBoopaDoop}} on 20 October 2009 and recreated by {{User|Bayoneta}} on 9 July 2010. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 02:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
<strike>:::Also, how did you see me saying "this has happened since 2011" as me saying that the update happened in 2011? Can you clarify. ]<sup>] </sup> 03:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC) </strike>
:::As I remarked above, Bayoneta is an admitted sock of BoopDoopaDoop (see the SPI report on that editor in the archive), who was allowed to keep editing after apologizing. Matt0012 is a new name to me. ] (]) 02:38, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
::::The problem didn't start in 2011, and I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention 2011. The problem started in December 2019 when the developers arbitrarily imposed new ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS... ] (]) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::That is, ]. ] (]) 14:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: Apologies. I was extremely tired when I wrote both above. I have striken the date parts. Rest of my comments still stand. ]<sup>] </sup> 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
===None of this matters===
I don't care what tool this guy uses or what his excuse is. If he can't edit without screwing up people's sigs, then he must not edit. {{U|AnonMoos}} shouls consider himself on notice now that if one of his edits messes stuff up one more time, he'll be blocked until he can give assurance that he's come into the 21st century. ]] 18:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:That's nice -- and also totally inaccurate. I ''was'' in the 21st century, and using 2012 tools, up until December 2019, when the developers pitchforked me backwards by arbitrarily imposing HTTPS ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS which my home computer hardware is not able to run. Notice that I had no problem complying with character-set handling -- the problem is with arbitrary ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. ] (]) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The century imagery is irrelevant. You have been warned. ]] 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::That was ''six years ago'', which is IMO about 3-4 years too long to keep using it as an excuse. Technology changes over time, so whatever this non-standard thing you think you need to do to edit here, it may be time to make a choice. ] (]) 00:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::As I said, to fix the problem, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection which would permanently disconnect my old computer, which I still use almost every single day. I would basically have to change my workflow and overall habits/methods of working because of an arbitrary decision by Misplaced Pages developers about encryption protocol updates. Anyway, when editing through public WiFi, I'm 100% Unicode compliant, and by exercising a little prudence, I can also avoid most problems when working from home. If I was constantly mangling Unicode right and left, there would have been a chorus of complaints long before now. But occasionally I can't anticipate a problem... ] (]) 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::And just to say for the third time: you're out of chances. "Occassionally" is too often. Once more is too often. And if and when that happens, your attitude of entitlement displayed here will pretty much ensure an indefinite block. ]] 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Think it's time to draft up a formal proposal at this point? ]<sup>] </sup> 18:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I don't think that's necessary. The key isn't formally deciding the criterion for blocking (because that's obvious to everyone) but rather detecting the next incident. Best way to do that for everyone gathered here to watchlist ]. Sooner or later, futher trouble will show up there. ]] 21:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::If you have DSL or even DialUp. That still works with modern machines. ]<sup>] </sup> 01:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Heck, ''I'' am on DSL (and have been since, if I recall right, 2008). I have no idea what sort of ancient Internet connection AnonMoos is claiming to be using, but it's clearly one that was already obsolete before this change he's still up in arms about six years later was made. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Not to mention it would STILL be supported these days. It's literally right there when you click wifi/network settings in Windows 10. ]<sup>] </sup> 18:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*The response by AnonMoos to feedback about this problem is bizarre. I don't really care what the excuse or the history behind it. If you are unwilling to edit Misplaced Pages using tools that work in 2024 then you should stop editing. The behavior is completely unnecessary and it seems like you don't understand the disruption. ] (]) 14:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


* AnonMoos hasn't really explained in any detail what their technical limitations are. They don't have to, but we can't really give advice otherwise. If as others have suggested their computer can't negotiate TLS 1.2, I'm surprised that they're able to use any websites at all from that computer. Requiring TLS 1.2 is not controversial; Misplaced Pages wasn't doing anything unusual in dropping TLS 1.0/1.1 around that time. ] ] 15:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{out}} There's a big backup at SPI, so I don't expect to hear anything from that quarter for a while, but it does seem highly probable that Daffyduck1234 (aka Sandboxxxxx, aka Ginsterama) is Bayoneta, admitted sockpuppet of Betty Boop-obsessed puppetmaster BoopBoopaDoop. Why Bayoneta apparently stopped responsible editing to return to disruptive activities is a bit of a mystery, but maybe he or she missed the excitement, I dunno. I do think that we're currently at a standstill in the absence of further activities from this editor or results from a CU, so probably this thread should be closed for the moment, and the discussion can be revived if things pick up again. ] (]) 04:11, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{CURequest}} - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 14:49, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
::SPI was just clerk-endorsed to check for connections. ] (]) 23:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::A CU check found no connection between the Daffyduck editors and Bayoneta (who is the only known link to BoopBoopaDoop), or, presumably to any other sockfarms. Since there hasn't been any disruptive editing on this front for a while, an uninvolved party should probably close this. ] (]) 09:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::Oh, and Sandboxxxx is Daffyduck1234, and Ginsterama is probable. ] (]) 09:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


*If it's that much of a problem for his computer, go and buy a new computer. It would certainly be better than whining about how Misplaced Pages broke his ability to edit without screwing things up for other users.] (]) 07:06, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
== Post RfC actions of Dr.K, Collect, Moxy and myself ==


:Meh. None of ''this'' matters. Signatures sometimes get accidentally fucked up. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum, and this signature thing is not a real disruption to the creation of encyclopedic content. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 07:21, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm requesting input from the community on whether the (post-RfC) actions taken by Collect, Moxy, Dr.K. and myself were appropriate in light of the results of ]. Long story short, I feel that they are deleting information which during the RfC was actually supported for inclusion by a majority of the participants (if you count). I find Dr.K's behaviour in particular to be offensive because he did not participate in any of the RfC's two surveys, and only after the RfC is closed, he starts removing information which only 25% of editors supported deleting. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 09:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
::While true, it's still a violation of ], and if it's accidentally changing characters in signatures, who knows what ''else'' it might be doing that isn't getting caught or reported? - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
{{Collapse top|Here is the long story|bg=FFFFFF}}
*We have been involved in a content dispute in the Bieber article that ]. Essentially, I wish to add content to the article on Bieber's run-ins with the law, and Collect, Moxy and Dr.K. were all in opposition. As a result of our actions (and those of other editors as well), the article was locked from a month from February 10, and an RfC was created by Moxy, and concluded slightly over a month later.
*At first within the RfC, a ] was created. All were informed, and Moxy, Collect and I voted. Dr.K. did not vote. Instead Dr.K. took to the ] section ''we should clarify this RfC as to the exact incidents which should remain in the BLP ... We should itemise the questions according to each incident''.
*So I took Dr.K's advice, created a ] for the RfC, and informed all who had earlier participated in the RfC, including Collect, Moxy and Dr.K. Another ] section was created for the second survey.
*For the second survey, I myself responded with reference to individual points. However, Collect and no attempt to address individual points. Collect in particular seemed , saying ''Sorry -- this is ''not'' how discussions normally occur for BLPs and I decline to play a game here ... Cheers -- but do not expect me to contribute to the "wall of text" discussion now or ever.'' Meanwhile, Dr.K. did not participate in the point-by-point survey he originally helped to propose.
*Because this was my first RfC, I was unaware of the proper procedure of how RfCs were to be closed. So after one month of the open RfC with discussion having died down for a while, I attempted to ] the discussion.
*Still, I believe that my conclusion was valid. From the general survey, those who outright opposed addition of the content (5 including Collect and Moxy) were outnumbered by the rest (12- made of 7 who said include most and 5 who focused on including legal issues). But for those who participated in the second point-by-point survey (eight editors), out of the 15 points, only 4 points received more than 25% opposition (2/8), these being points 7, 11, 13 and 14.
*So after being informed that I shouldn't be closing the RfC, I learnt the proper procedure and requested for an uninvolved editor to close it, and it was who said that '' there is consensus for '''inclusion''' of the information in some form ... In regards to specific points (1-15) for most of them there is not enough feedback to determine a consensus, but I will say that there is NOT a consensus to NOT include ... #7 and #13 appear to have the closest thing to consensus for non inclusion ... there is a consensus that these incidents are forming a larger portion of Bieber's reputation and notability. ''
*With the closure of the RfC, I the in the article, removing #13 and trimming #7. Pretty quickly to remove #15 saying ''Was there consensus for this BS stuff here? ... this page is Turing into a kids tabloid'', and . Note that in the point-by-point survey #15 was only 2/8 not in favour of inclusion -> 1/8 once reliable source found, which ''was'' found. After that Collect #14 (4/8 not in favour of inclusion -> 3/8 once reliable source found) and #15 also saying it was ''trivia of ephemeral significance''. '''So Collect and Moxy didn't bother to vote properly in the point-by-point survey, and now they're removing points as they see fit over a majority opinion?'''
*But those weren't the worst actions in my opinion. Dr.K. perform some ''Assorted removals'' from the legal issues, removing or trimming points 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7. You can count for points 2, 3, 4 and 5, no more than 2/8 of the 8 editors who bothered to vote properly in the point-by-point survey (not Collect, Moxy nor Dr.K.) opposed points 2, 3, 4 and 5. '''So Dr.K. seemingly ignores the RfC and does what he sees fit, after not even voting in the RfC'''.
*Here's what Dr.K. had to say for himself. '' participate in the RFC or the subsequent discussion trusting that a resolution could be arrived at, since so many people were discussing these points. But it appears that very little progress has happened.'' / '' believe the editorial judgement which allowed this fluff to creep into this article.'' Well if so maybe you should have participated in the RfC and voiced your concerns while it was still open!
*Gaijin42 elaborated that ''Its an open issue that may be discussed further ... I do not see a policy based reason for exclusion - it received wide coverage in very reliable sources. this is the type of thing that needs to be resolved via editorial consensus and discretion.''' - if so, how come , and are all employing the "remove first" and "discuss later" policy? <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 09:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
{{Collapse bottom}}


::It is safe to assume there more than a few of the editors taking part in this discussion have years and decades of technological experience under their belts, myself included. I do not think The Accused is straight-up lying about the technical hurdle, but clinging to the "I refuse to change my system of operation, therefore it's Misplaced Pages's fault for (6 years ago) making the change!" excuse is the real problem here - this is at the heart a ''behavioral'' discussion, not a technical one. Consistently violating the norms of the community is indeed a real disruption to the creation of encyclopedic content. ] (]) 16:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
::It's not inherently about the signatures. It's that he's stubbornly insisting on using an outdated system that introduces errors into ''other content''. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:::agree on this. Incidental changing of signayures due to the tech issue is not a small problem itself but that clearly has potential to impact a much wider range of mainspace content. I have a hard time believing that there is not a browser that supports https and can run on a decade old computer (something like Opera even). Claiming inability to switch or upgrade needs to be explained in detail or otherwise this has potential to be a bigger problem. ] (]) 17:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== Disruptive editing by ] ==
{{atop|1=IP blocked 24 hours, and then ] and created an account to evade the block, which has now been indef'd. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
The ] is engaging in disrupte editing. Neither does this IP provide sources and is POV pushing. And this IP has been warned multiple times for this on his/her talk page.


] (]) 20:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)


:@]: It looks like you both are ] on ].<sup class="plainlinks"></sup> That's not particularly helpful, so you should try to have a discussion on the ] as to whether you should include the ] name for the article in the lead/infobox. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">]&thinsp;]<sup>]</sup></span> 20:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::MJL why and how did you pick out that one article over the many this IP has made recent changes to? The IP has been making disputed edits for months and has been reverted by a number of editors, not just Moroike. ] (]) 01:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::@]: I am not suggesting that the IP editor isn't being disruptive, but my point is that {{u|Moroike}} isn't making the situation better (using the example of that one article). You can see this by looking at <span class="plainlinks"></span> where {{gender:Moroike|he has|she has|they have}} mostly just reverted this editor without using a summary. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">]&thinsp;]<sup>]</sup></span> 18:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::The IP's edits were removed a total of 13 times on the page regarding the capital city of ], ]. You can't let him continue engaging in further edit wars with other users besides Moroike, can you? ] (]) 17:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Since this IP user won't stop and is stonewalling, either he/should be temporarily blocked, or all the pages he is POV pushing without sources, should be semi-protected, so that only registered users can edit them. ] (]) 21:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:After he/she was blocked for 24 hours, this IP created an account as ] in order to evade the block and has resumed his/her POV pushing. ] (]) 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Creating the need to make 400,000 unnecessary edits ==
'''Note''' Content inclusion in a BLP which is clearly deemed contentious requires a positive consensus - at this point only one editor seems to be asserting that such incidents must be placed in the BLP. As for his insistence that editors '''must''' "vote" on his point-by-point ''wall of text'', that is just absurd. As for me calling his posts "wall of text" I invite anyone here to look at the length and number of his contributions and argumentation on the BLP talk page. ] and ] are clear on this, and this forumshopping excursion does not belong at AN/I at all. shows the edit at issue now -- noting that it gives much space to a "White House petition" which was deemed of no value except by basically a single editor, is the talk page discussion thereon. Gaijin, the closer of the RfC, specified that the material requires editorial consensus. '''One and only one editor says no consensus is needed for the trivia''' - and I suggest he may be in for a rude awakening regarding his one-man-consensus here, and the tendentious editing thereon. Cheers. ] (]) 12:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
::::The point-by-point survey came about due to a call for clarification so that there could be progress. I think it's just lazy that you didn't bother to offer a point-by-point reply. The petition was discussed in the RfC as well, and there ''were'' other supporters, although it was certainly contested. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 05:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::Perhaps part of the problem here is confusion among some editors about policy. One would think that BLP policy would all be located at ], but there seems to be an important BLP policy that is spelled out at ] and not at ]: "However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." Perhaps this quote might answer the current dispute?] (]) 13:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Mm, since that bit has been part of ] for a long time (june '12) it seems there is a decent consensus for that interpretation of consensus. I'd support adding it into BLP and seeing what happens. Regarding my close - clearly there was support for inclusion of the general topic of Bieber's scandals and how they are affecting his image, but the individual points were not widely !voted on (with the exception of 2 that had consensus to be removed). The lack of response on those other points brings up ] but as all of them involved contentious BLP (and some of themBLP that wasn't even about Bieber) it raises the bar for inclusion on those specific points. As far as ANI, this was a borderline close, with a lot of it coming out as no-consensus. Continued efforts to build that consensus are not a matter for ANI, but if there is edit warring or disruption, that is something for ANI. In light of the ] snippet, it does appear that positive consensus for inclusion would be needed. ] (]) 14:39, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Although not perfectly aligned with the ] snip above, BLP does already have something along these lines (although it appears to be targeted at the entire article, not individual bits of content). Perhaps the two bits should be conformed more
<blockquote>
To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first, and wherever possible disputed deletions should be discussed first with the administrator who deleted the article. Material that has been repaired to address concerns should be judged on a case-by-case basis.</blockquote>
] (]) 15:04, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks for pointing out that BLP quote. It seems pretty clear that material about "run-ins with the law" is contentious material that falls under these provisions of policy, so it should all be removed unless there is consensus to include or retain (assuming it's all presented in NPOV fashion, reliably sourced, etc).] (]) 15:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


Can we please dp something about editors who make unnecessary changes to widely-used modules, and then need to change 400,000 talk pages to get the same result we had before the change? Thanks to change from last week, which removed the parameter "living" from the bannershell, we now have more than 400,000 pages in ]. After the "cleanup" by ] (and perhaps others), we will have the exact same result as we had last week, no new functionality, no new categories, no improvement at all, but a lot of flooded watchlists.
:::User:Starship.paint did very well here...the majority of his text has been implemented because of the RfC. But there is however points that did not have consensus at all that were not re-implemented. Leaving out a poll and info on his friends antics was the out come of the RfC from what I can see. -- ] (]) 16:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


I tried to get him to stop at ], to no avail. This isn't the first time, as you can see from that discussion. ] (]) 14:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::], which offended {{u|Starship.paint}} so much that he had to drag me to ANI, albeit with a nine-day delay. I try to avoid ANI as much as I can if for nothing else than to avoid the drama. So I wasn't planning to reply to these allegations, except that I felt that I had to address his comments (personal attacks) about my "offensive behaviour". He does not seem to understand that Bieber's biography is no place for showcasing the results of what police found in his bus while he was absent. Neither is Bieber responsible for what was found on the body of his friend Lil Za. That is why I removed this stuff. I also removed {{xt|...and his ] also upset ]n and ]n authorities.}} on the basis that "upsetting authorities" is a vague and comical allegation, unworthy of inclusion in his biography. I also removed the bit that {{xt|Bieber's neighbours in ] have accused and confronted Bieber about his ] and ] in the neighbourhood.}} as trivial and unworthy of inclusion in a serious biography. Residents are frequently upset with their neighbours, especially if they happen to also be leading the lifestyle of rock stars. And finally I removed: {{xt|R&B singer ] was also arrested together with Bieber.}} What does that have to do with Bieber? I did my best to improve Bieber's bio by removing this tripe from his biography. After a nine-day delay and without ] Starship.paint brings me to ANI. He could have tried to reply to my points there instead of transplanting the dispute to this forum. Finally, as I remarked on the talkpage of Bieber's article, I find that Starship.paint frequently badgers opponents with walls of text. That was one of the primary reasons that I did not take part in the RfC. I simply could not discuss this tripe while anticipating to be showered by walls of text defending the trivia. Perhaps Starship.paint can be advised to try to improve the encyclopedia in more substantive ways than trying to relentlessly defend the addition of inconsequential crap in Bieber's biography and subdue the opposition with showers of text. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 23:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
:If you want to discuss {{tl|WikiProject banner shell}}, you should do so at ].
:::*So now you're blaming me for not replying to your arguments, when your last post on the Bieber talk page called for me not to reply to your arguments because you know my stand well already. Do you want my arguments or not? <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 05:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:As for the size of the category, I have no plans to empty it, and was only going to update a few hundred more categories and templates. &nbsp;&nbsp;<b>~</b>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>&nbsp; 15:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::*I didn't exactly tell you not to reply. I told you to wait until someone other than yourself came to defend your points, since this is a wiki. I had hoped that you would get the message that since after nine days noone came to defend your arguments, that your points were not popular. Now I see that the message you got was to bring me and two other editors to ANI. I am not going to comment on the wisdom of that action. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 06:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::You made nearly 2000 of such edits in the last few hours, and when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries. I have no way to know how many more you planned now or in future runs. Starting a discussion at the module would hardly stop you. ] (]) 15:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Pretty simple to me; you, Collect and Moxy are "regulars" of the article. It would seem that the majority in favour of inclusion of the legal issues in the RfC aren't such "regulars" editing the article. They apparently don't monitor the talk page, therefore they don't comment. If they disagree with me they can post so. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 10:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::"{{tq|when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries}}": incorrect. Since you wrongly thought I was making cosmetic edits, i.e. "{{tq|no change in output or categories}}", the category was to inform you that they are not cosmetic.
:::*Once I disregard #7, all of this information you removed was supported to be included by a majority of participants in the RfC. General survey had 12/17 supporting the inclusion of the legal issues, point-by-point survey had 6/8. How is it that it's possible for you to ignore participating in the RfC, then coming around to remove points after the RfC ended with a majority of participants supporting these points to be included. I just don't think it's right. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 05:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Regarding a BRFA for the bulk of the category, that's looking more likely since the category appears to be neglected. &nbsp;&nbsp;<b>~</b>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:16px;">] (] ⋅])</span>&nbsp; 15:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::*The RfC results on those points were debatable. Even the closer of the RFC commented they should be removed. These points were demonstrably irrelevant to the BLP as I have stated before. We cannot allow BLP-violating, irrelevant, nit-picky, low quality etc. etc. points into the article just because the RfC results were murky. That would be an utter failure of the collective editorial discretion. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 06:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Unnecessary removing a synonym and then making thousands of edits to remove the hidden cat created by that unnecessary change is not really any better than making cosmetic edits, the end result is that nothing has changed for the affected pages at all. ] (]) 15:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::"Debatable". Nice oversimplification. Imagine that you '''did''' bother to participate in the RfC's two surveys, and voted against every single point. Then 6/18 would be against the legal issues (33%) and 3/9 in the point-by-point survey (again 33%). It's a very non-murky "minority". Gaijin42 singled out points 7 and 13, not 2-5 (which you targeted). <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 10:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::Not unnecessary. The Lua code is very complex and removing the need the support various settings makes the code both easier to read and maintain. As always, editors that don't want to see these edits can hide these by hiding the tag "talk banner shell conversion". ] (]) 12:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
@Starship.paint: ]is ''not a vote'' and your use of numbers and "votes" for your "list of points" has no value whatsoever, and the fact is that ] is a very strong policy which means that '''policy-based arguments trump "I hate Justin Bieber" arguments every single time'''. At this point, moreover, you appear to have a bad case of ] which may well be addressed at this point, as it quite appears that tendentious point-pushing ''may'' attract undesired attention to yourself. Verb. sap, applies. ] (]) 12:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::It doesn´t look as if the specific code to have these synonyms was very complicated though, the argument that in some cases two synonyms were used on one page with conflicting values was more convincing. And the edits I complained about did ''not'' have that tag, so no, even if people knew about hiding that tag, it wouldn't have helped here at all. ] (]) 16:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*We've been through this before. Given that it is undisputed that each content point I have tried to insert has multiple reliable sources, I bring up a sub-policy of WP:BLP, which is ]. ''In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative''.
:This was discussed in detail on ]. Ideally these edits would be done by an approved bot so they do not appear on people's watchlists. The main benefit is to merge the {{para|blp}} and {{para|living}} parameters. When both are in use, we find they often get conflicting values because one gets updated and the other does not. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
*This is exactly what happened the last time. You bring up policy, I bring up policy, we revert each other, RfC was started to gauge the wider community's stand on this issue so that we could have progress. RfC concludes with more people tilting towards include. I know RfCs don't rely on voting, but this is exactly what the community feels, and I feel that Dr.K. in particular is ignoring that.
::Isn't it more logical to first have a bot cleanup the unwanted parameter, then remove it from the template, and only then start populating the cat with the somehow remaining or since added instances? In any case, this is a typical bot task and shouldn't be done with massive AWB runs. ] (]) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
*I've already argued before how each individual point satisfies WP:WELLKNOWN, so I can do it again if you want, but you'll probably call them "walls of text" again and ignore them, just like how you've done so in the past. Tell me you want me to prove how each point satisfies WP:WELLKNOWN, go on. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 14:27, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Yes, probably. But we have this mechanism already set up and I assumed {{ul|Cewbot}} would deal with these as part of its normal activities. Happy to look at other options - maybe discuss on template talk? &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 18:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:*{{tq|I feel that Dr.K. in particular is ignoring that.}} Please leave this nonsense. Repeating it will not make it true or put people in a zombie-like hypnotic trance to do your bidding. But I think I know why you have invested so much time and effort to defend adding this trivia which is unrelated to Bieber directly. The common thread between Bieber's bus inspection by the police while he was absent, Lil Za's cocaine bust and Khalil's arrest is that you want to associate Bieber with these events and imply that he is guilty by association. You want to editorialise: "Bieber's bus is bad, Khalil is bad, Lil Za is bad, everything around Bieber is bad, ergo Bieber is bad". The same goes with the rest of the events with the neighbours and "making authorities upset": "Bieber makes authorities upset, neighbours upset, ergo Bieber is bad" This is a ]-violating ] project on a grand scale designed to attack Bieber by painting a synthetic angle using a patchwork of tabloid news fodder some of which is not attributable to Bieber directly. You want to create a feeling of malfeasance about Bieber using a collage of trivia. I suggest you abandon that BLP-violating approach or action may have to be taken so that you can stop targeting Bieber this way. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 17:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::I don't know what this is about, but if the OP is correct, it is totally absurd to edit 400,000 talk pages for a tweak. Discussing at a template talk page monitored by those focused on the template would simply hide the issue. ] (]) 03:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This may all be caused because Starship.paint is use to writing about wrestling were the whole topic is fake. the topic its self is fuelled by speculation put out by the community to draw interest. Writing about characters over real people may be where there is a problem. Wrestling survives on guess work and made up associations, but the rest of the world does not work that way. I think Starship.paint does a great job for the kids that are interested in wrestling articles, but needs to understand that associations and things like public polls is not what we consider valid for real bios. The RfC was pretty clear to me that the majority did want to mention the topic of legal problems overall, but they also had reservations on some points as did the closer of the RfC. Need to read what people are saying not just look at there vote. -- ] (]) 18:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::Edits like these should ''always'' be bots, so they can be filtered from watchlists. There are numerous other editors who have recently engaged in the mass additional of categories to articles which I had to ask them to stop as my watchlist was flooded. ]] 13:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::That's a fair analysis. Thank you Moxy. Staship.paint seems like a capable editor if only he could be guided in the right direction. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 00:34, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::Hiding bot edits from watchlists is not a viable option for many editors, since it also hides any non-bot edits that predate the bot edit (], 2007, unassigned). Users ], ], ], ], {{lang|la|et al}} edit with such high frequency that hiding their edits leads to an unacceptable proportion of watchlist items not appearing. {{Small|(Also, Citation bot's edits should usually be reviewed, since it has a non-negligible error rate and its activators typically don't review its output, exceptions noted.)}}{{pb}}The code for maintaining two aliases for one parameter cannot possibly be so complex as to warrant a half million edits. If one of the two "''must''" undergo deprecation, bundle it into Cewbot's task. If the values don't match, have the banner shell template populate a mismatch category.{{pb}}In general, if a decision is made to start treating as an error some phenomenon that has previously not been a problem, and that decision generates a maintenance category with tens or hundreds of thousands of members, it is a bad decision and the characterisation of the phenomenon as "erroneous" should be reversed.{{pb}}At minimum, any newly instanced maintenance task scoped to over a hundred thousand pages should come before the community for approval at a central venue. ] (]) 15:19, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:::{{Small|Also, like, if only one of {{para|blp}} and {{para|living}} {{tqq|gets updated}}, shouldn't the net result be pretty obvious? Valid updates should really only go one direction. ] (]) 15:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)}}


* Is it just me or are talk pages like ] just perpetual ] issues where a very small number of editors (frequently 5 or less) make major changes that affect thousands of articles, all without involving the broader community through, at minimum, places like ]? ]]<sup>]</sup> 04:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::::*So instead of countering WP:WELLKNOWN, Dr.K. takes a sidestep to claim that it's WP:SYNTHESIS. To counter this, let me say that all the reliable sources of these "previous incidents" that Dr.K. removed were only written when reporting Bieber's first arrest, which means that the reliable sources '''have made the connection''' between the previous and current arrests. Several reliable sources listed the multiple incidents Bieber has been involved in since 2011 or 2012, and they even listed more than 12 incidents in 2013 itself. How is it WP:SYNTHESIS if reliable sources can make this connection?
*{{ping|Fram|Tom.Reding|Kanashimi|Primefac}} I got AWB working again. If cewbot would take time for making the changes, and if this needs attention soon, then should I file a request for that particular bot task? —usernamekiran ] 06:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::*And oh Moxy, you had to bring up my editorial background in wrestling? The notion that wrestling is based on guesswork is ridiculous. Also, you're again portraying my content as silly ''kids'' stuff again, hardly fair to me.
*:The robot is in operation... ] (]) 09:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::*I'd really like a third party opinion on Dr.K's removals and the current arguments on this topic (that said, I hope Dr.K. will reply to my arguments as well) <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 02:23, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*::yay! —usernamekiran ] 16:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Meanwhile, the category has grown to over 800,000 pages. Perhaps next time an RfC to determine whether creating such a large cleanup task is warranted, would be better? ] (]) 16:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Suggestion: When eight or more other editors do ''not'' share your position, you are ''unlikely'' to convince others by iterating your same arguments over and over and over and over in interminable walls of text. I suggest you take a step back, have a cup of tea and drop the stick -- right now it is apt to do you far more harm than good to keep this up. Cheers. ] (]) 12:03, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{re|Fram}} this is logical. We should also make it a policy (or at least a guideline), something along the lines "if change would lead to edits/updating more than XYZ pages, a consensus should be achieved on a venue with a lot of visibility". Like {{u|Silver seren}} mentioned above, sometimes a formal consensus/discussion takes place, but it happens on obscure talk pages. —usernamekiran ] 14:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== User:ZanderAlbatraz1145 Civility and Content #2 ==
:::::*What Collect said. And some more advice: Here we are trying to build an encyclopedia, not a ] of ] in which we are going to try to suffocate Bieber's reputation. There is such thing as editorial discretion. Please try to exercise it more often. Also ANI may be a lot of things but it is not an editorial advisory board. Except, of course, if you consider bans or blocks some type of editorial advice. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 12:28, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}
:::::::''Here we go again.'' It's really not the first time my opponents have ignored my arguments when I've brought up policy to trump them. "Walls of text", they say. Funny how Collect pulls out the number 8 '''now''' and previously dismissed all the numbers that were in favour of inclusion of the legal issues in the RfC (12). I simply stand by what many very reliable sources have said about Bieber, which counters your assertions of WP:BLP and WP:SYNTHESIS. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 13:56, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
This user has engaged in a lengthy display of disruption. Namely through incessant incivility I have noticed .
:::::::::You are reaching the point which some might call tendentiousness incarnate. I suggest you note that absolutely no one here is accepting your POV, that the RfC closer did not back you up, and that your use of AN/I for Forumshopping has failed as a hint, but it appears you need a stronger hint. Will someone please oblige starship.paint? Cheers. ] (]) 14:09, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:There has been zero third-party comments since Dr.K. replied. Again, I request a third-party opinion on the subsequent arguments on display; I believe my opponents' have been whittled down to asking for subjective 'editorial discretion'. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 23:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Seems to me that Starship.paint is a bit obsessed with this topic and ought to step back a bit, while Collect and Dr.K are wikilawyering. There is a ridiculous amount of sourcing about that petition from every sector, including an academic journal using it to criticize the WH petition process], legal analysis from as far away as India, Michelle Obama responding with parenting advice, a US congressmember complaining that Bieber will get favorable treatment because of his celebrity and wanting to change US immigration policy, a counterpetition supporting Bieber (opposing his deportation) and calling for equal treatment for other immigrants who get in comparable trouble (opposing deporting them too) (had to un-hotlink due to edit filter) documented by Fox News copycat petitions being started as publicity stunts, etc. There is more than enough sourcing to write a separate article about the petition all by itself. It seems to me ridiculous under WP:NPOV to not mention it in the Bieber article (one could reasonably debate about how much weight to allot it). Could a similar wikilawyering effort at the Bill Clinton article remove the documentation that Clinton was impeached? It undermines our credibility as an encyclopedia that publishes all the relevant info about the article topic if we have an article (as a deletionist I'd rather have far fewer such articles to start with, but Bieber is extremely notable). That all said, the RFC is kind of sprawling and if the petition is the main remaining issue of dispute, maybe it's simplest to open a new RFC focusing on just the petition. ] (]) 06:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


Instances such as , , on , etc. Users such as {{Ping|Waxworker}} and {{Ping|Jon698}} can speak to their experiences, I'll outline mine.
:*First you accuse me of wikilawyering then you embark on a lengthy rebuttal centred around the petition issue, even though I have not once referred to the petition. I don't call this informed criticism. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 07:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:*And can you explain to me how is it wikilawyering to say that what happened to Bieber's tour buses, while he was absent, is gossip unfit to be in Bieber's bio, quote:
:*{{quotation|Police in ] and ] each raided Bieber's tour buses in 2013 while Bieber was not present. They found ] in Detroit, and unspecified ]s and a ] in Stockholm.}}
:*Can you also explain to me how is it wikilawyering to state that what happened to Lil Za is irrelevant to Bieber's bio, quote:
:*{{quotation|Nine days before his first arrest, police searched Bieber's home and arrested Bieber's friend Lil Za for ] possession.}}
:*Can you also explain to me how is it wikilawyering to state that what happened to ] is irrelevant to Bieber's bio, quote:
:*{{quotation|R&B singer ] was also arrested together with Bieber.}}
:*In my eyes these edits are a transparent attempt to attack Bieber by implication using a web of unfair ] insinuations. Do you think this is any way to write the bio of a living person? Or do you think this is wikilawyering? ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 18:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::*You've got the order in reverse. A lot hinges on the Khalil point, which is not an attempt to 'attack' Bieber, but simply a fact of the case... was Bieber arrested (DUI of ''drugs'') alone or along with other people? Then you have an that nine days after Bieber and Khalil's arrest, Bieber and his friends/entourage were smoking a lot of marijuana on a plane.
::*Under WP:WELLKNOWN we can include content by reliable sources if they are relevant and notable. Based on the future history of Bieber and his friends being arrested as above, the past history becomes relevant. Notable because Lil Za was ''arrested'' on ''drug'' charges, Bieber's tour buses raided ''twice'' on different continents, ''drugs'' found. There is no WP:SYNTHESIS here because reliable sources like , , , and have reported these past and 'future' incidents '''together'''. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 23:57, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::*Exactly as you mentioned above: {{xt|Under WP:WELLKNOWN we can include content by reliable sources if they are relevant and notable.}} Yes, we can include facts if they are {{xt|relevant and notable.}} Except in this case they are irrelevant to Bieber. Bieber has nothing to do whatsoever with Lil Za's drug possession, Khalil's arrest or with the fact that drugs were found on his bus. These were not Bieber's drugs. Or nobody alleged they were. Therefore they are irrelevant to Bieber. He was not arrested for them and no one accused him of carrying them into the bus. They are irrelevant to Bieber and have no place in his biography. And your comment: {{xt|Based on the future history of Bieber and his friends being arrested as above, the past history becomes relevant.}}, is still not true. That's still Bieber's biography and details about his friends do not belong in his biography because they are irrelevant to his biography. That's where your ] comes in. You want to convert Bieber's bio into the synthetic article "The sordid history of Bieber, his friends and the bus incidents". ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 00:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::*We are never going to agree on ''Based on the future history of Bieber and his friends being arrested as above, the past history becomes relevant.'' From WP:SYNTH, in this case the reliable sources are saying A and B in the same article. If they were so irrelevant why did many reliable sources report past history in current incidents? Let's just leave it at that.
::::*Also, you're neglecting to mention on the other previous incidents directly involving Bieber which you removed as well. Relevancy is definitely not an issue here. Multiple instances of neighbours accusing Bieber of dangerous driving. Bieber's graffiti upsetting authorities in Australia and Colombia. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 02:57, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::*]: {{quotation|...and his ] also upset ]n and ]n authorities.}}
:::::*Well, as it turns out I checked the references and . There is no mention in any source that the Australian authorities were upset. : {{quotation|The hotel, QT Gold Coast, said in a response to a comment on its Facebook page: "We are stoked to have Justin Bieber's artwork on our wall." It added that it had given Bieber permission to paint on the wall.}}
:::::*So not only your edit about "upsetting authorities" is vague, trivial and unencyclopedic, but you added things which did not exist in the citations and also you failed to mention that the hotel in Australia approved of the graffiti and had given permission to Bieber to do it. That completely invalidates any culpability on Bieber's part but your edit makes it appear as if he had run afoul of the law because of his graffiti in Australia which is simply not the case, quite the opposite, since he was encouraged to do it by the property owners of the place. Your edit fails both ] and ]. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 09:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::*The Colombia bit said "upset authorities". Since Bieber wasn't charged but the Australian authorities did respond negatively, I wrote that he upset the Australian authorities too to summarise, which seems like an adequate summary when you consider that BBC wrote: {{quotation|Gold Coast City Council said it would order the graffiti's removal ... Council said that while the graffiti was on a private property, it was in public view and an eyesore ... "city has a zero tolerance approach to graffiti" ... Gold Coast Mayor Tom Tate described Bieber's behaviour as "really silly".}}
::::::*After all, everyone's been calling on me to summarise, summarise, summarise the past issues of Bieber, no need for so much detail, so that's what I did. If you feel it's an inadequate summary then fine, we can have another reliable source by Huffington Post that says in the title .
::::::*''completely invalidates any culpability on Bieber's part'' - so Bieber is not to blame at all?See BBC source: "city has a zero tolerance approach to graffiti", so what if the hotel approves? The city's approach still stands. I didn't add the hotel approval part, but I won't stop anyone from mentioning it as long as the Australian authorities' response is included.
::::::*Therefore, while the following sentence is clunky, it should satisfy Dr.K's intepretation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV: ''Bieber's graffiti also upset Colombian authorities and angered an Australian mayor despite the Australian hotel approving it.'' <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 09:45, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::*As I mentioned earlier, this is a trivial incident which does not deserve to be in the article. Even your present formulation is inadequate. Acording to the BBC: {{quotation|Earlier, Gold Coast Mayor Tom Tate described Bieber's behaviour as "really silly". "Just come and clean it up and we'll be happy with you. Alternatively come and sing at our mayoral Christmas carols on 7 December for an hour and I'll let you go."}}
:::::::*The mayor was not really angry, he was just playing politics. By the time this trivial incident gets explained properly, it is way past its ] quota for the article. And in any case, since the hotel gave Bieber permission to paint the graffiti, Bieber is completely exonerated from any responsibility, so by mentioning the anger of the mayor we imply Bieber was somehow culpable although he was not. Then we go to what "making authorities upset" really means, which I analysed just above and I think it is meaningless newspeak for tabloid fodder, completely unfit to be in a serious BLP. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 10:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::*As far as your coment: {{xt|"city has a zero tolerance approach to graffiti", so what if the hotel approves? The city's approach still stands.}} No, it does not. You assume Bieber knew about the Australian city bylaws but Bieber is not an expert on international municipal law. And then, how was Bieber expected to know that the "city has a zero tolerance approach to graffiti"? Who is he? An Australian city-hall insider? The hotel gave permission to Bieber to paint, Bieber painted. End of story. Bieber had no idea that the city council would go after him post facto. He has no responsibility whatsoever. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 10:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::::*The mayor "not really angry... just playing politics" is your interpretation. The Huffington Post reliable source says that he angered the mayor, which is the crux of it; it was definitely a negative response. Almost everybody ''isn't'' an (edit conflict) <del>international lawyer</del> expert on international municipal law - does that mean they are exempt from obeying municipal law in countries they are visiting? The hotel is culpable as well, but Bieber isn't exempt. Ignorance or "they told me to do it" is hardly a good answer to disobeying the authorities. If he were really that blameless, this would not have been covered beyond TMZ or Daily Mail. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 11:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


On December 10, I noticed on the article ] page several additions were made that didn't adhere to the article's purpose. Zander restored these with an introductory summary rife with . For the most part there was an attempt to discuss the issue we had, but ultimately did not see eye to eye. I asserted I'd be escalating the issue to garner more substantive dialogue around it, Zander's response includes a needless . I made some attempts at engaging the topic at the article's talk page, in addition to WikiProject Film, it was over a week that saw no input. I would go on to state that (at the time) in two days, I would restore the page to it's status quo. I would do so, . Zander , and after another terse interaction, I moved to nominate the article for deletion, finding with the conflicting views of what Unrealized meant, it was too open ended and led to these lists being essentially trivia. Since then, Zander has elected to take an antagonistic approach towards me, making swipes they openly admit , and now that I am putting said comments , Zander is now doing the editing equivalent of mockingly repeating me, with edits such as and .
===Topic Ban proposal===


This editor displays no interest in conducting themselves cordially or cooperatively on this website. ] 23:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
For ] for tendentious editing of BLPs and refusal to understand the significance and need for ] This is done only after the ''interminable postings'' above wherein the problem is laid quite bare for all to see. Topic ban to encompass all biographies of living persons, broadly construed, for a period of six months or as determined by consensus below. ] (]) 00:05, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:I've given them a warning for canvassing: - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:Ah, so apparently I should be banned from all BLPs for six months because I am adding (mostly) negative content to one BLP, discounting all my other contributions to other BLPs (the wrestlers? Natalia?) My edits for Bieber abide by ], a sub-policy of WP:BLP for public figures. Unable to counter my policy-based arguments and counter-arguments, you have resorted to this. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 00:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
: - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::No -- but you seem to accuse anyone who points out the requirements of ] or acting in bad faith and collusion, and iterate your claims often and frequently and repeatedly at various venues, and open a clear forumshopping exercise on this noticeboard. I suggest you see how many will note your stridency here and on the talk pages of the BLPs you have been active on, and add two plus two. The aim is to make you ''aware of the policy'' and to abide by it, not to banish you, and hopefully you will find other areas to edit in ''constructively'' and ''without making accusations'' about every editor who demurs with your stated positions. Cheers and Godspeed. ] (]) 00:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::And they appear to be continuing editing while ignoring here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::''stridency here and on the talk pages of the '''BLPs''' you have been active on'' - have you even seen any of my contributions on any other BLP? And where exactly have I accused anyone of editing in bad faith? I'm sure you're acting in good faith, but I don't agree with your methods. You clearly want to protect BLP articles, but I think you're over-protecting by removing reliably sourced negative content. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 03:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::This feels par for the course for Zander frankly. As noted with the bit about Zander reverting after an explicit edit summary saying not to and there being two days worth of me saying that edit would be made and they made no objections until the move was made. They disengaged from discussion but only re-engaged when the situation changed to their disliking. ] 02:07, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
'''Comment''' Given staship.paint's long and multifaceted campaign to add irrelevant facts into Bieber's bio and his continuing defence of his actions which show insufficient understanding of ] and specifically ], a fact that could cause harm to Bieber's bio, I think that I would be prepared to support a ban from Bieber's bio. I think he needs to take a break from that bio. This ban could be extended if similar behaviour arises in other bios. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 00:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:The legal issues in particular (which Dr.K. removed) were supported by a majority of RfC voters (12/17); I am merely the most outspoken. So all 12 of us don't understand WP:BLP and WP:WELLKNOWN, which warrants a ban?. <span style="border:2px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span> (] &#124; ]) 04:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


== Three week edit war over ] violations == == SPA ] back at it on ] ==


Hi, all, I'd like some assistance with the SPA ], who's been POV pushing on the ] article since . A quick view of their extremely short edit history shows that their sole focus is on pushing a vaccine-denialist POV on that and similar COVID-related topics. Started out on the talk page and BLPN, but now they've graduated to edit-warring on the article itself; they were active in June, made a single related edit in October, but now they appear to be . They've already , and have received an warning--to which they were . Would appreciate a more permanent resolution, either a COVID-19 topic ban or just an indef considering their SPA status, so they don't just go back into hibernation and then turn up again like a bad penny. (And yeah, given this context, I don't love the implications of the username "Tikitorch2", either.) Thanks, ]&nbsp;]] 05:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm not a regular editor of this article about ], however it is on my watchlist and I happened to notice an edit-war over what appears to be a pretty obvious ] violation. A ] was being used as a source for contentious material about a ]. I have no idea whether the accusation is true, nor do I care. But we cannot state in Misplaced Pages's voice an opinion held by a non-reliable source (AKA an advocacy organization without a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking). Therefore, I have partially reverted the edit. I invite other experienced editors knowledgeable about ] and ] to examine the issue. Thanks. ] (]) 22:57, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
:I support this removal. Good work. --] (]) 23:01, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
::], better work would have been looking at the extensive RFC discussion on the talk page and at least acknowledging it. No idea why you posted about it on here, especially since that content was only one piece of the "edit war" that died down 10 days ago. --] <sup>'']''</sup> 01:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Good point, {{U|NeilN}}. ] (]) 03:09, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
: RS for the quote itself: , , . -- ]'''ჷ'''] 23:22, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


:]? ] (]) 06:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
There is edit warring going on, its almost exclusively by Citizen150 who has been blocked for his warring multiple times on this article (and has confirmed socks doing the warring for him too). That warring continued today adding in unsourced information that the editor has tried to add many times ]. The "BLP" issue has been repeatedly removed by this user, and repeatedly added by a quite a few other editors. Its very well sourced that Nugent made these statements. Its also very well sourced that its been commented on repeatedly. There are the sources Finlay posted above, and a longer section in the body of the nugent article (see blockquote below). (And if the lede was a BLP violation, the body surely is too, but it remains) That quote misses the other statement Nugent made at the same event where he called Obama a Chimpanzee. There may be a case that this should not be in the lede, because of recentism, etc, but it was in no way a BLP violation. (Although the more reliable sources already used in the article should have been used in the lede section). Also agree that removal ignoring the RFC, and not mentioning it here, is very questionable, but does not rise to the level of requiring any admin action against AQFK. (Although the fact that AQFK explicitly !voted for removal in the RFC, and its pretty clear he is in the minority viewpoint in that RFC, but he removed it anyway... hrm, seems iffy).
::{{duck}}. I'm sending this ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 11:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::, so might just be generic disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:What are you implying with regard to my username? My edit history has been limited to trying to correct two red flags that stood out so much that I followed the citations when I was searching these scientists who were in the news for censorship. It has been enlightening learning how wikipedia selectively chooses secondary sources but discourages the use of primary sources to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible.
:For my two attempted contributions to Misplaced Pages, the two red flags were pretty dramatic to prompt me to check out the citations--Sunetra Gupta's article implied more than 1 in 1000 people in England died from Covid in spring 2020 in an effort to discredit her, which was trivially easy to google as untrue. I corrected that without really changing the overall narrative. The article for Martin Kulldorff...I would probably not have spent time looking at the sources or realized how unscientific Kulldorff's critics were had there not been such superfluous "Wikivoice" editorializing and synthesizing suggesting Kulldorff lied in an essay to the public. ] (]) 06:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::] are not to be used for anything but simple facts about a subject. They absolutely are not to be used {{tqq|to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible}} because that is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said. Maybe I am the sock puppeteer! ] (]) 03:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::What I am implying is that such a username in the context of an account pushing COVID-denialist rhetoric that flies in the face of the sources and Misplaced Pages policy is . Anyway, this editor continues to be a drain of editor time and attention. ]&nbsp;]] 14:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Ah an absurd, convoluted, and contrived personal attack. Assuming anyone but you knew tiki torches were present at a political event where someone was killed, why would I choose my username based on that? Tikitorches provide light, warmth, and keep the mosquitos away. I guess its not surprising an editor named writ keeper attacks the editor rather than effectively debating the subject of the edit. ] (]) 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Even if it was a personal attack, making one ''back'' isn't going to fly here. Knock it off. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::], your edits are being examined at ANI. This is not a pleasant experience, I'll admit. So, it's best for you not to dig yourself into a hole. I know the instinct is to defend yourself but it doesn't help your situation to come out swinging. It's probably to your benefit to address any concerns that have been raised and say no more than that. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Disruptive editor on ] ==
<blockquote>In a January 2014 interview at a ] hunting and outdoor trade show, recorded by Guns.com, Nugent was recorded stating, "I have obviously failed to galvanize and prod, if not shame enough Americans to be ever vigilant not to let a ] communist-raised, communist-educated, communist-nurtured subhuman mongrel like the ACORN community organizer gangster Barack Hussein Obama to weasel his way into the top office of authority in the United States of America".<ref>{{cite news|last=Whitaker|first=Morgan|title=Ted Nugent calls Obama 'subhuman mongrel'|url=http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/ted-nugent-calls-obama-subhuman-mongrel?cid=sm_facebook|date=January, 22, 2014}}</ref> After being chastised by ], Nugent apologized for his "subhuman mongrel" statement.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/198916-nugent-apologizes-for-calling-obama-a-subhuman-mongrel |title=Nugent apologizes for calling Obama 'subhuman mongrel' |last1=Shabad |first1=Rebecca |date=21 February 2014 |website=thehill.com |publisher=News Communications, Inc. |accessdate=22 February 2014}} </ref></blockquote>
] (]) 17:22, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


User ] has repeatedly removed reliably sourced refs to the genres infobox by removing ] simply because they don't believe it to be correct as the ref is "new" and that the artist isn't that genre. I had sent them two warnings now and also explained that's not how this works, so they decided to add more genres with refs that don't even mention the genres they included. I do not believe this editor is going to cooperate. ] (]) 08:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


:User:Pillowdelight changed the genre list of When the Pawn... which originally had been a variation of certain genres: Art pop, jazz rock, art rock, alternative rock, jazz pop, chamber pop, all of which are somewhat accurate and agreed upon by various editors of this page over many years. It was changed to just Alt pop, a genre that is used to describe the newer sounds of pop in the early 2010s with Lorde, Sky Ferreira and Lana del rey. It is not a genre that fits the album hence it has never before user:Pillowdelight been described as such beyond what her poor source says, a Fiona Apple revisit (that is not even about When the pawn.. specifically) from a new, small and virtually unheard of web magazine. Sources such as Rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork are far more accurate and robust and that's why this album has never been described as alt pop. That genre did not exist at the time of the release of the album. The source needs to be accurate, it is not. It's not an album review, it is a fluff article about Fiona Apple by a small web magazine. It's not even about When the pawn... specifically, it makes no sense. I think the other editors agree, it is inaccurate.
{{Reflist-talk|close=1}}
:Allmusic and pitchfork are far better sources. I have added both as sources. I didn't change the genre list, I simply changed it back to the genre list that had stood there the longest before user:Pillowdelight changed it a few months ago for the first time, having never touched this page before yet complaining about other editors. ] (]) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{ping|Longislandtea}} I removed the genres because they're unsourced, which I stated in many edit summaries you keep reverting, as well as on your talk page. It doesn't matter that just because you believe a source another user added calling the album alternative pop is incorrect and unreliable because it's "new, small and virtually unheard of" is a ridiculously excuse. Read ] it states — {{xt|genres must be stated and referenced in the body of the article; personal opinions or original research must not be included.}} The sources you have added specifically from Pitchfork don't state the genres you've listed. ] (]) 20:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Sources need to be '''legitimate''' and''' relevant'''. Your source is not relevant and it is disputed. Pitchfork is added because they describe the album as an alternative album several times in the review and the genre category is ROCK. What is alternative and rock? Alternative rock. That is how the album was marketed. You can't cherrypick a single article to make a case for a genre that the album absolutely is not in. I will remove the Pitchfork source, that's fine. There's numerous ones including from Allmusic that clearly state that it is an alternative rock album. The album was even added to Misplaced Pages's page for alt rock albums ages ago. This is very uncontroversial. Just having alternative rock is also lacking; jazz fusion, art pop (the album is already added on the wikipedia page for art pop albums) and art rock are accurate too and have been there for ages but alas! Let's get rid of it all to only serve your opinion. Numerous albums have unsourced genres might I add, but the vast of amount of editors agree to it because they know these accurately describe the album, these are the scenes that the album and artist comes from and sourcing for genres can often times be lacking. In that case, rather than trying to look for BAD sources, it's better to agree with the consensus. In our case, we do have sources. Rateyourmusic has been used as a source for adding art pop, alternative rock, jazz pop, fusion, art rock and chamber pop as genres before. ] (]) 20:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Here's the page for what is considered acceptable sources {{lw|Acceptable sources}}.
::::''Relevance. Sources must be relevant--there must be some reason for the reader to care about what the author has to say. For example, the opinion of a random individual on the presidency of George W. Bush, as published in a letter to the editor of a major newspaper, is not relevant; and thus should not be included--even though it is published, traceable to its author, and given in a reputable publication. Relevance can be imputed several ways--through explicit personal knowledge, through subject-matter authority, through general notability of the author, through demonstrable correlation with the opinion(s) of a large group of people, etc.''
::::A large group of people, the editors of When the Pawn...'s page throughout the years, thousands of people on music reviewing sites and numerous music journalists from legitimate publications do not agree with what this one article you cherrypicked states.
::::''Note that this policy is the minimum standard for inclusion as a reference in Misplaced Pages. Sources may meet this standard and still not be authoritative, reliable, accurate, free from bias, or undisputed. Sources which meet this minimum standard but which fail to meet stricter standards may be used, but should be used with caution. In particular, such sources should be explicitly attributed to their author(s) or publisher(s) in an article's prose (rather than being presented as fact with the author only given in the notes), and disputes considering the source's veracity should be described.''
::::Meaning you can't just add any genre because some random source says it when it goes against larger and more reliable sources as well as it is controversial.
::::Thank you and please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. ] (]) 21:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::]. Note that accusing editors of vandalism when they are not, in fact, vandalising can be considered a ], so I'd suggest you strike that comment. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Okay, I strike. ] (]) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You didn't actually strike any comments. To do so, do this <nowiki><s>Comment</s></nowiki> which will make it look like this <s>Comment</s>. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::<s> please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand.</s> ] (]) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Longislandtea}} How is the source considered not relevant and where was this dispute? AllMusic ''does not'' call the album alternative rock at all within its article. Rate Your Music is also not a source it's user generated which is against Misplaced Pages. I really wish an admin would comment on this because this is getting absolutely nowhere. ] (]) 21:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Here's another source describing it as an alternative rock and jazz fusion album
:::::https://www.the-solute.com/the-solute-record-club-fiona-apple-when-the-pawn/
:::::Alt pop is not accurate. If you're so adamant about alt pop, please argue why. It is completely inaccurate and you have one singular source over music journalists and music sites. Allmusic does categorize it as alternative rock, Pitchfork has categorized it as rock since 1999 of its release. There was NO Alt-pop at the time. It still isn't. These are different genres. Art pop is not Alt pop. You edited the page one time in October 2024 only to get rid of the genre list that editors agreed upon to add Alt pop which makes no sense whatsoever. ] (]) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I have now added a new source to the genre list. If you have any problems with the new source, tell me. But it's much more accurate this way. It's still sad to see the whole genre list that was originally there, so much more descriptive and fitting, hacked away but oh well. ] (]) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Pitchfork's categorizations mean basically nothing. They have ten categories, one of which is "Pop/R&B", and another of which is "Global". By the way, you should just stop caring about this, because sources misclassify genres of music chronically and everywhere you look. Take your passion to RateYourMusic. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:All of this discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page (which neither editor has used). ]&nbsp;] 21:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{ping|Schazjmd}} I'm awaiting for an admin to respond. This conversation is getting nowhere hence the reason why I brought it here in the first place. I've tried to explain to the user on their talk page along with this entire thread and it's getting nowhere. {{ping|The Bushranger}} you left a comment but could you please share your opinion on the dispute? Or possibly ping an admin who's familiar with music if this isn't your area of familiarity? ] (]) 21:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::There was no reason to bring this conversation here. I talked to you directly but go no real reply or any arguments despite adding sources and explaining why it's not an Alt pop album. I've explained to you well enough. Please stop trying to get admins to ban me simply because I (and other editors) recognize that the genre list that you got rid of was far more fitting. There's a new genre list now with sources but it is not Alt-pop. The album was already added to the wikipedia album pages for Alternative rock and art pop. I'm familiar with these genres and Fiona Apple specifically to know that it's accurate hence why the genre list has been that way for years. If you're adamant about sources, there is a source. Accusing me of not sourcing should be considered a false accusation at this point. Not all sources are equal either and I've tried explaining that to you. ] (]) 21:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::], you were given good advice which is to have this discussion on the article talk page which neither editor has posted at yet. This is a content dispute. If no action has been taken yet by an administrator, it's likely because they don't agree with your statement that action needs to be taken. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Okay, will do. Thank you Liz. ] (]) 22:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


=== Irrelevant sources and unnecessary changes to genre list on {{pagelinks|When the Pawn...}} ===
==Removal against consensus==
Hi. Today ] has repeatedly removed some material against consensus.
The latter removal was after three editors (including me) objected to removal. So, it seems like a pretty simple situation. ] claims that the removal was kosher because a different sentence at a different article was removed, which kind of seems irrelevant to me (the other article is currently the subject of an ArbCom case). I tried to make reasoned arguments, but they mattered not. A block for LB would be very helpful.] (]) 00:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:All of my reasons are given in the very long (sorry, but not all on my account) discussion of yesterday (27 March 2014) ] on the Gun politics in the U.S. talk page, and in the 20-27 March 2014 ] discussion on the Gun control talk page. However, I will be happy to answer any other questions that arise. In a nutshell, IMO: ] misrepresents the conditions under which the material in question was added to the article, and the "consensus." I suggested that he start an RfC on the subject, but instead, he started this. Again, I will be happy to stop what I'm working on to answer any questions that arise. ] (]) 00:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::Yes, I have a question that arises. Is it not correct that you reverted against the express objections of three editors at the article in question?] (]) 00:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


On October 22 2024, {{lu|Pillowdelight}} changed the genre list that has stood in place for years and has been a variation of the same variety of genres: Art pop, art rock, jazz, alternative rock, jazz rock, chamber pop and jazz pop. Across the biggest music sites, this is what the album is described as. The user changed it to Alt pop using a single irrelevant and unreliable source. The album is not described as such anywhere else. The user is going against the general consensus. Sources have now been added to the genre list and I don't feel as though that would mean I'm breaking any rules. The user is threatening to get another editor banned because they're uncooperative with how us other editors feel the genre list should look like. It's an album that has been categorized as rock by Pitchfork at the time of its release and was added to rock charts when released too.
:A block for the 'contributors' who see Misplaced Pages as an outlet for pro-gun propaganda entirely unsupported by legitimate academic sources would be even more helpful. ] (]) 00:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Here's how the genre list has looked over a long period of time, without much controversy from editors not readers:
::Thanks for not objecting to my request, Andy. Of course, when describing a political issue at Misplaced Pages, reliable sources that describe the opposing positions are necessary, and can be used without Misplaced Pages endorsing any of it, which I think is the case here. Unless our goal is to use Misplaced Pages for stamping out descriptions of one side of the issue, while promoting the other. Anyway, this is simply a case of ignoring policy in order to revert against consensus.] (]) 00:40, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1178937091 from 2023
:::On the subject of ignoring policy, I note that the assertion regarding Brazil in the disputed text is entirely unsourced - I suspect because the actual source for this appears to suggest that the "pamphlet distributed by the pro-gun lobby in Brazil" was unlikely to be understood in a Brazilian context, having been created by outsiders with little understanding of local issues - and of course misrepresenting sources would be against policy. And for the record, your 'thanks' are premature - I ''do'' object to your attempt to get someone blocked for supporting policies - which of course overrule any supposed 'consensus'. ] (]) 00:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Andy, the removed phrase simply says that the fear-of-tyranny motivation for supporting gun ownership "is mostly but not entirely confined to the United States." If you believe that that violates any Misplaced Pages policy whatsoever, then I am dismayed by the incredible degree to which you are wrong. Anyway, you've only objected to one of four supporting sources, which says: "NRA-sponsored propaganda collectively worked to further the cause of pro-gun activists both abroad and at home". In what universe does that not support the statement in the text? Perhaps it would be a good idea for Misplaced Pages to slant the POV impact of its political articles, but in that case I suggest we get an additional policy written up, such as ]. I emphatically deny any suggestion of promoting any POV at Misplaced Pages, but plead guilty to tilting against bias where I see it at this website. Cheers.] (]) 01:06, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::Um, no, the 'removed phrase' includes a reference which quotes ''Open Fire, Understanding Global Gun Culture'' (I'd missed that it actually named the source - sorry). What it fails to do is indicate that the quote is cherry-picked, and intentionally misleading, as noted by FiachraByrne on Talk:Gun control some time back - the source states that "...the vast majority of Brazilians would have been able to make sense of the discursive appropriation of ... Hitler" - making the claim that the Hitler poster indicated a 'fear-of-tyranny motivation for supporting gun ownership' in Brazil less than credible. Such cherry-picking of misleading quotes is however par for the course for the pro-gun lobby. Still, I'm sure you can live with that since the POV being pushed isn't 'liberal'. ] (]) 01:42, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Grump, I never I thought I'd hear "sorry" from you. The removed sentence obviously did not claim anything about Brazil or anything about Hitler. You're making me sorry that I ever logged on to this website, and I'm sure ArbCom will soon complete what you have started. Cheers.] (]) 02:08, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I suggest that you actually look at diffs before posting them on ANI in future. The first diff you linked clearly and unambiguously includes the quotation "he individual items of NRA-sponsored propaganda collectively worked to further the cause of pro-gun activists both abroad and at home. Consider, for instance, a pamphlet distributed by the pro-gun lobby in Brazil, which featured an image of Hitler giving a Nazi salute. The choice of image was clearly meant to suggest a parallel between the dangers of disarmament and the dangers of Nazism" as part of a reference. ] (]) 02:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::That quote is in a footnote. The removed sentence says nothing about Brazil or about Hitler, and if anyone would like to shorten the quote in the footnote then it's fine by me. I'm not going to be the one to shorten it, because it's a perfectly sensible and honest quote, and it doesn't imply anything that isn't true according to that reliable source. I honestly don't see any way that that footnoted source does not support the removed sentence of text, which is so obviously correct that I would be flabbergasted at this discussion were it not Misplaced Pages.] (]) 02:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::Um, no. We don't 'shorten' footnotes that intentionally misrepresent sources - we remove them entirely, along with the supposed 'reference' they are supporting, as contrary to both Misplaced Pages policy and elementary standards of encyclopaedic integrity - as Lightbreather had done. ] (]) 02:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Are we allowed to say "bullshit" here, or is that only allowed for ''the regulars''? Anyway, I have nothing further to say to you this evening Grump. Have a wonnnnnnderful evening, y'hear?] (]) 02:35, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::Our article text did not mention Brazil. The source does. Its one of four (?) sources used, all which clearly document that argument being used outside the US. If you disagree, and think the argument is restricted exclusively to the US, find a source saying so. Otherwise take your ] elsewhere.] (]) 02:28, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Pointing out that sources are being intentionally misrepresented is not 'original research' ] (]) 02:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1049316366 from 2021
{{od}} Two of the three editors (Anythingyouwant and Gaijin42) who objected to "the sentence" being removed are parties to ]. Andy is also a party to the case.--] (]) 01:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::Since you popped up ], perhaps you could clear something up for me. Does the ArbCom case cover ] or not? Had any of us thought that it did, we would have insisted that Lightbreather be a party. Maybe the case only covers those editors at that article who get in LB's way?] (]) 02:08, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


Thank you. ] (]) 19:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
An Australian, pro-control source, also used as a reference, dedicated to the topic of control says "Internationally, the gun lobby is fond of comparing gun control agenda with that of Hitler in pre-World War II Germany". And then proceeds to give several examples of the argument being made in Australia. The statement is 100% indisputable, reliably sourced. ] (]) 01:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Why do people have to argue about what genre music is rather than just listening to it, and hopefully enjoying it? ] (]) 19:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::The genre list was fine and accurate and uncontroversial until this user decided to remove the entire thing. It's important that the genre list is accurate. People find albums through genres. There's other reasons as well. ] (]) 20:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This is neither here nor there, but I thought albums are generally sorted in alphabetical order by band name or the musician's last name.
:::Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is incomplete. ] (]) 22:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I was trying to explain the important of listing genres accurately. If you go to a record store then yes, albums are listed in alphabetical order. But they're still put in categories of genres. ] (]) 22:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::If we were going to list musical genres "accurately," we wouldn't bother at all. Except in very broad strokes ("rock," "punk," "Baroque," etc), so many of these horribly subjective "genres" are made up by bored media writers and bands that hate the notion of being The Same As Everyone Else. Get ten people to listen to ten different tracks of heavy metal, and you won't get as many as a third of them agreeing on any of them on the doom/grudge/dark/death/Goth/Viking/sludge/*-grind/*-core/etc etc etc spectrum. Beyond that, arguing whether any given artist is "that genre" is ''very'' highly subjective. (Hell, I've sung Baroque, classical, folk, rock, ethnic, shape note, so many genres I can't readily count.) ] 15:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Multiple users breaking 3RR on Gilman School article ==
:A simple question: was the quote you mention selected (a) to accurately reflect the opinions of the author regarding the significance of the 'security against tyranny' argument in the Australian firearms regulation debate, or was it (b) selected to bolster claims that the NRAs ] has international support? Before answering, I suggest you read the source concerned... ] (]) 02:22, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::I have a simple question for you Grump. Do you think that the check-against-tyranny argument for gun rights has been entirely confined to the United States? Hmm?] (]) 02:25, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::That has precisely nothing to do with the issue I have raised - that sources were being intentionally misrepresented in the material Lightbreather removed. ] (]) 02:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
===Proposed resolution===
I propose that {{userlinks|Anythingyouwant}} is warned to stop misrepresenting sources and stop forum shopping, with a clear message that any more of this will result in escalating blocks.


Everyone else seems to be keeping it mainly cool in a heated debate, and at least trying to stick to discussing actual content and actual sources. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:59, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - He has just inserted the "international" material back into the Gun politics in the U.S. article again. ] (]) 18:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::Yes I did, with the support of 4 out of five editors at talk page, and with additional language intended to address the objection from AndyTheGrump, though I doubt it will.] (]) 18:57, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Obviously, I emphatically deny misrepresenting anything. Misplaced Pages will either decide to handle controversial political subjects neutrally, or it will inevitably be a propaganda machine, and my choice would be for the former instead of the latter. Also, please note AndyTheGrump's statement below: "I've not stated that it was Anythingyouwant who was responsible for the initial misrepresentation...." I oppose any and all misrepresentations in this Misplaced Pages article, or any other.] (]) 19:19, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Obviously you oppose. But since you are (a) the subject of the proposal and (b) not an administrator, your opposition is irrelevant. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Yes, I am often irrelevant. Mine is not the only irrelevant response to your proposal.] (]) 22:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
====Threaded discussion====


To be fair, I should point out that I've not stated that it was Anythingyouwant who was responsible for the initial misrepresentation. As for 'propaganda machines' though, the evidence is entirely clear that the whole absurd ] regarding firearms law is been driven by a partisan lobby allied with the NRA. It is also clear that their arguments are entirely unsupported by academic historiography, and are cobbled together - in a a "cherry-picked", "decontextualised" and "tendentious" manner, as one academic critic noted - not in the interests of promoting understanding that particular period in German history, but in order to influence a debate in another place and time entirely. ''That'' is propaganda. 15:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::The sentence that was blatantly removed against consensus said absolutely nothing about Hitler, and that sentence was manifestly supported by its four footnotes, as much as any sentence at Misplaced Pages could possibly be. Andy, why is it not possible to stick to the issue at hand?] (]) 15:40, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::The sentence removed was referenced with footnotes which used the words 'Hitler' twice and 'Nazi' three times. Hiding pro-NRA propaganda in footnotes doesn't make it immune to scrutiny. And 'consensus' cannot overrule policy which states that references must not misrepresent sources. That ''is'' the issue at hand. ] (]) 15:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Andy, you have objected to one of four footnotes. But much more than one of four footnotes was removed against consensus. As to that one footnote, you have not disputed that it is a reliable source. Whether it is being misrepresented depends upon what the footnoted sentence says, and in the present case the footnoted sentence merely states what should be extremely obvious to any neutral observer: that the tyranny argument is not entirely confined to the United States. This is not rocket science here, and at some point we have to (gasp!!!!!!!) look at the facts. More generally, are you saying that policy forbids Misplaced Pages from saying that the NRA (and others) have used a Hitler argument? ''Can you not see that describing "propaganda" is not the same as propagandizing?''] (]) 16:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::P.S. This will be my last comment, so feel free to have the last word, block me, ban me, or anything you want. I felt obligated to bring attention to the recent defiance of the consensus policy, even though I had no illusions that ANI would lift a finger. Cheers.] (]) 16:10, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


Two users are actively engaged in an ongoing edit war on ], with both {{user13|Counterfeit_Purses}} breaking 3RR , , , and {{user13|Statistical_Infighting}} being right at 3 Reverts
:::::::::::(ec) Yes, per ], it is more or less inevitable that Hitler will eventually come up in debates about firearms regulation. That does not however indicate that NRA propaganda on the issue has any serious credibility elsewhere - and cherry-picking sources to try to prove otherwise, in the absence of sources which actually state as such, is synthesis, and a violation of Misplaced Pages policy. The simple facts are that it is only in the U.S. that 'Nazi' analogies with firearms regulation have had any serious traction - elsewhere, as the Australian and 'Brazil' sources make clear, such arguments are either seen as irrelevant, treated with derision, or (as in Australia "the Jewish community finds repugnant and offensive, and totally rejects the comparison") called out as the grossly offensive abuse of the memory of the Holocaust for propaganda purposes that they clearly are. The sources are being cited to support a claim that the facile 'Nazi' analogy has traction elsewhere, without noting that the sources cited make it entirely clear that the analogy has been treated with utter contempt. Misrepresentation of sources is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. ] (])
, , .


This seems to go back to December 9th, with the first editor (Counterfeit) removing it and , on the 17th, , and then being at the above today.
===A bizarre post by Anythingyouwant on my talk page===
{{archive top|1=I'm astounded that anyone could seriously think that the statement regarding dueling by Anythingyouwant was anything other than sheer ] expressing his frustration at the situation. It may well have been inappropriate hyperbole, to be sure, but Andy's comment below was just as inappropriate a response to it, and the continuing commentary below just kept pouring gasoline on the fire. As the heat:light ratio has exceeded solar levels here, ''this is being closed'', with ] being delivered to both Anythingyouwant and AndyTheGrump for making an inappropriate use of hyperbole and for hyperbolically reacting to it, respectively, and then for both of them continuing to escalate the situation below. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 02:26, 31 March 2014 (UTC)}}
Evidently, Anythingyouwant seems to think that it would be preferable for disputes on Misplaced Pages to be resolved by resort to firearms: '''"I assure you that if duelling were still legal, I would be seriously considering it"''' Since such methods of resolution are not only against policy, but illegal (and given the fact that we are separated by the Atlantic ocean, impossible), I have to assume that the purpose of this post was to intimidate me, rather than for any other purpose - and accordingly, I call for Anythingyouwant to be '''indefinitely blocked''' for behaviour entirely incompatible with both Misplaced Pages policy and elementary standards of human behaviour. ] (]) 16:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:As I explained to Grump: "there was no threat whatsoever. I seriously doubt that you would accept a duel, even if it were still legal, and even if I challenged you to one." Funny how he left that part out. Funny how he also left out his previous statement that I am a "patronising little troll".] (]) 17:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


] (])
:Full disclosure: I have often found Anythingyouwant's editing and commentary problematic. But I can't get worked up about that one. As you say, Andy, there's an ocean between you. How could you possibly be intimidated? ] &#124; ] 17:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC).
*E/C applied. ] ] 19:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{u|Counterfeit Purses}}, please be aware that the ] article was kept in a recent Articles for Deletion debate, so the consensus of the community is that he is notable. Edit warring to keep his name off the alumni list is a ''really bad idea''. ] (]) 20:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::@] No problem, I've already given up. I would argue that ] applies here, but there's no sense in pushing against the tide. If you're content to have the lede section of Gilman School include "prominent graduates including "alleged murderer Luigi Mangione", I guess that's fine. It seems to be an unusual thing to include and an obvious case of undue weight given to something that is in the news at the moment. Perhaps someone should start a Wikiproject to add famous murderers to the ledes of other schools? ] (]) 22:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{u|Counterfeit Purses}}, in my view, ] is among our most misunderstood policy documents. It begins {{tpq|In principle, all Misplaced Pages articles should contain up-to-date information. Editors are also encouraged to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events.}} I believe that Mangione is notable, the evolving article is acceptable, and his name belongs in the alumni list. Many, many "bad people" are listed as alumni in countless school articles, and it is not at all unusual. The only unusual thing here is that the lead of this particular school article lists alumni, and so I have removed them from the lead. ] (]) 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I'm glad that misunderstanding WP:NOTNEWS is so common because I am going to continue to misunderstand it. I see that Liz Luigi Mangione from the lede before you removed the rest of the list. Acknowledging again that I have given up hope that Mangione will be removed from this article, let me ask you what you think the purpose of these alumni lists is? Including Mangione is an editorial decision. We don't include all notable alumni in these lists, so why should we include Mangione, and why now? It's too soon to know if he will have lasting relevance. ] (]) 04:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::{{tqq|We don't include all notable alumni in these lists}} Why not? If someone is Wikinotable and went to a Wikinotable school, then they belong in the "Notable alumni" section of that school's page, ] - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@] I'm not saying "we shouldn't", I'm saying "we don't". We don't include every notable alumnus in these lists, nor should we because it would lead to long, unhelpful lists stuck in the middle of articles about the schools. ] (]) 04:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::If an alumni list bloats an article, it can be split out. See ]. 11:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC) (Oops, signing) ] (]) 16:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Of course that's always an option, but what I am saying is that it isn't desirable to have every alumnus listed in an article for a school. Ideally, it would be a selection of alumni who have made significant achievements in their field. Otherwise, it's just trivia. Am I wrong? ] (]) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes. You're making a value judgment that some alumni (with articles, else they most definitely should not be included) are more notable than others. That is ]. ] (]) 20:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::Yes, that's called editorial judgment. Just like deciding not to include every known fact about something in an article. At some point, it is just trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a database. That info would probably be welcome over on Wikidata, which is a database. Alternatively, someone could just add ] (in this case). ] (]) 20:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::And a new user, who doesn't understand categories and has no idea Wikidata exists, is relying on the list on the page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== User:Glenn103 ==
:::Actually, that is an assumption on my part - I have no means of ascertaining where Anythingyouwant actually is. In any case, it is clearly written in a manner ''intended to intimidate'', since it can serve no other purpose. And yes, it is intimidating to have fellow contributors suggest that they would like to kill me. If this isn't 'problematic', I have to ask what is? ] (]) 17:56, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
{{userlinks|Glenn103}} has been mass creating unsourced stubs about Cyrillic letters, most of which have been draftified. They've also disruptively edited in the past, such as: <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 01:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I do not want to kill you Andy, as that would be illegal.] (]) 18:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Most of these pages don't even make any sense (eg.: ]). The user also ignores any notice about his articles being moved to draftspace by simply recreating duplicates of them (eg.: ] & ]). Immediate action may be needed. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 07:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::At this point, since it appears that Anythingyouwant is intent on continuing his intimidatory behaviour, I shall withdraw from this discussion, and contact the WMF directly. ] (]) 18:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Whatever. I don't want to kill them either.] (]) 18:11, 29 March 2014 (UTC) ::Given a uw-create4im with directions to come here, let's see what happens. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::They've continued editing, this time adding infoboxes to the articles, so I don't think the warning worked... <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 08:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I have blocked them from article space and page moves, and will leave note on talk page to come here. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 15:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Honestly, this almost feels like trolling. Their basic procedure seems to be: pick a random Cyrillic letter. Combine it with a random diacritic. Write a short stub on the combination, saying effectively "this letter combination is not used anywhere." The occasional historical mentions ("this combination was used in such-and-such obscure Siberian language") are completely unsourced, of course. (Everything is unsourced.) ] (]) 04:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Excuse me for detracting from the report, but this was your 4th edit, your last edit was in January 2016... how have you found yourself here of all places?
Is there such a thing as crocodile angst? At worst, this is an accusation of cowardice, which isn't very nice.] (]) 18:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:I mean you might have a point, but wow. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 04:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:Crocodile angst. Yes, apparently there is. ] (]) 18:36, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Similar behavior to {{checkuser|PickleMan500}} and other socks puppeted by {{checkuser|Abrown1019}}, which also made tons of drafts on Cyrillic characters that cited few sources (and none with in-depth coverage). Most drafts have been ]'d, of course, so only those with admin perms can verify the deleted contribs. <small>Since these socks have been banned (]), I haven't notified them of this discussion.</small> ] (] '''·''' ]) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:Good catch, and looking at the contribution histories it {{duck}}. Changing the block to indef as a sock accordingly. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== North Korean involvement in Russian-Ukraine war discussion ==
*'''comment''': The dueling statement goes over the line. What if the statement had been "I assure you that if ] were legal, I would be seriously considering it"? I think it would have been seen as intimidating. At the very least, Anythingyouwant should be warned express to their views in less threatening and more civil ways. ] (]) 18:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::An invitation to duel never resulted in any physical harm to anyone, unless both adults consented to it. Since this point seems not to be well-understood, I now realize that making the comment was a mistake, and I sincerely apologize for it.] (]) 18:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


The inclusion of North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox for the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" article has been a point of extensive and protracted discussion since September. A formal Request for Comment (RfC) on this matter ran for several weeks and was closed with a clear consensus to include North Korea as a combatant based on reliable sources and expert analysis. However, despite the closure, the discussion has continued unabated across multiple threads, with certain editors repeatedly rehashing resolved points and questioning the validity of reliable sources, leading to significant disruption.
My two cents: I think much of this disagreement arises out of the ARBCOM delays in releasing a proposed decision for ] which was scheduled to be posted on February 12th. Granted that there are almost always delays, but waiting an additional seven weeks for a decision that might involve some topic bans means that editing in this topic area is still contentious. I'd like to recommend admins wait until a proposed decision is posted by ARBCOM to act but it's still unclear when that will occur. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 19:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:And in the meantime making violent threats against editors is okay? &mdash; ] 19:35, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::I don't think anyone seriously believes this is headed toward a pistols-at-dawn situation. (Besides, knowing Anythingyouwant, I think if anyone agreed to a duel with him, he'd immediately launch into an interminable, legalistic argument about the technicalities of the '']'' until all of the seconds got fed up and went home). It's more like: if we've gotten to the point that one editor is yearning for the opportunity to duel another, then we're waaaay past ]&mdash;the editing environment on these articles is broken and adult supervision is required. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 19:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::"I do not want to kill you Andy, as that would be illegal" (above) is pretty bad. It doesn't devolve to "I do not want to kill you Andy, as that would be wrong in so many ways" but more toward "I would kill you if it was legal (and thus I could get away with it)" which carries the strong implication of "I wish you were dead". That's a pretty hurtful thing to say to someone as well as inflammatory. Is the dispute really that important? Let's not talk like this, people. Perhaps a nice hot steaming cup of Please Be Quiet is in order for the offending editor?


'''Key Points:'''
:::On the bright side, invitation to duel at least indicates that the person considers one a social equal and fellow gentleperson. If he considered you a mere yeoman or townsman he would presumably just threaten to thrash you with his cane or trample you with his horse. ] (]) 20:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::The illegality is not the only reason why I do not want to kill Andy. But I have already apologized for mentioning duels at his talk page (see above at 18:47, 29 March 2014), so maybe we can move on now? I will even forgive Andy for calling me a "patronising little troll", if he would forgive me for mentioning that a duel might be satisfying in the present case.] (]) 20:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*May I suggest you duel with pillows, or something equally undangerous. Perhaps a virtual duel in an online game such as ] might be suitable. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
: Banjos. ] (]) 21:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
: Handbags at dawn? <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 22:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Its an encyclopedia! We don't invite others to "duel" in the manner done here, nor to continue to insult and taunt them: ''("there was no threat whatsoever. I seriously doubt that you would accept a duel, even if it were still legal, and even if I challenged you to one"...according to Anythingyouwant.)''--] 22:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::As an honest person, I get tired of being relentlessly accused by AndyTheGrump of being a propagandist, a patronising little troll, etc, etc. I overreacted by mentioning duels at his talk page. I did not suggest that he would be a coward to not accept a duel, only that if I did propose one (which I didn't), then he could simply decline, with no injury to anyone. People who generously dish out heaping portions of condemnation should understand how offensive it is to the recipients, and such assumptions of bad faith have no place at an encyclopedia.] (]) 22:59, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Perhaps...how do you think we proceed now? Is an interaction ban needed?--] 23:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Both should behave as if there's an interaction ban in effect, because if something like this comes up again, that would probably be the result. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::I will. That is why I left the ] article last year, and have not been back to edit that article since (I explained this to Andy today at his talk page). I guess ArbCom will address what's been happening today at ] (that's why I started this section at ANI).] (]) 00:03, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
* No wonder people laugh and joke about the petty politics and buffoonery that runs rampant behind WP's façade. ] (]) 06:01, 30 March 2014 (UTC)


# '''Prolonged Discussions and RfC Closure:'''
===Since it seems clear that Misplaced Pages admins are unwilling to deal with Anythingyouwant's intimidatory behaviour here, I should probably consider taking the matter to ArbCom===
#* The RfC on North Korea's inclusion was conducted thoroughly, with a wide range of arguments presented by both sides.
...though given their apparent inability to make any progress whatsoever on the 'gun control' case (now almost seven weeks overdue), I would have little expectation of it being dealt with appropriately there, either. Frankly though I am almost beyond caring - it is becoming more and more obvious that this whole farcical enterprise is little more than an exercise in vanity publishing, combined with the worst aspects of 'social networking', and with a generous dollop of corrupt and contemptible POV-pushing of the most overt kind (paid and unpaid - though personally I find the latter more obnoxious, as paid editors at least have the excuse that they have to earn a living somehow), all carried out without the slightest concern for the readers, the only legitimate justification for the existence (and charitable status) of the encyclopaedia. In such circumstances, the most honest course of action has to be to leave the whole festering heap of semi-literate, factually inaccurate and biased beyond all hope of redemption 'articles' to the POV-pushing drones, clueless Google-miners and fancruft-shovelling subteens, in the hope that readers will come to recognise sooner exactly what it is, and look for 'knowledge' elsewhere, where it might actually be compiled by people with honest intentions, and with the slightest clue regarding what they are writing about.
#* The closing administrator, S Marshall, determined there was a clear consensus to include North Korea as a belligerent based on reliable sources and the strength of arguments.
#* The close explicitly allowed for reevaluation if new battlefield events or sources emerged, but no substantial new evidence has invalidated the prior consensus.
# '''Ongoing Disruption:'''
#* Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editors.
#* This behavior includes undermining reliable sources, misrepresenting their content, and insisting on a higher standard of verification (e.g., requiring firsthand evidence of North Korean combat, which is unreasonable given the context).
# '''Reliable Sources Confirming North Korean Involvement:'''
#* Multiple reputable outlets, including the BBC, Reuters, and Pentagon statements, confirm North Korean military involvement and casualties in the conflict.
#* Experts from institutions like Chatham House and RUSI have explicitly stated North Korea's role in combat, aligning with the community's decision.
# '''Impact on the Community:'''
#* The continued disruption consumes editor time and resources, detracting from the article's improvement.
#* These actions disregard Misplaced Pages's consensus-building principles and guidelines for resolving disputes. This dispute has been ongoing for months, with multiple threads being opened and closed on the same topic.


'''Request for Administrative Action:'''
And for the record, Anythingyouwant's assumption that (were duelling hypothetically legal), I would turn down his hypothetical offer is at least open to question, given that (assuming said hypothetical duel permitted the challenged party to chose weapons, as is the custom in civilised countries), I would have to seriously (though hypothetically) consider the relative merits of having the opportunity to (hypothetically) run him through with a sword against the risks involved, and might well consider it worth the chance. ] (]) 05:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::The matter has already been brought to the attention of ArbCom at the Workshop page. For the record, ] has again deleted material against the consensus of four editors at the talk page of ]. The deleted text is indicated by strikethrough: "Although gun rights supporters promote firearms for self-defense, hunting, and sporting activities, a further (and sometimes greater) motivation is fear of tyranny. <s>The latter motivation is not confined to the United States, though it has gained little traction elsewhere.</s>" There was no attempt by LB to rephrase, to compromise, to save the footnoted reliable sources, or anything of the kind. This is what happens when jihad is waged, motives are impugned, and policies are disregarded.] (]) 05:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)


I respectfully request that administrators address the following issues:
:::Then stop waging 'jihad' (interesting turn of phrase), stop impugning motives, and stop disregarding policies... ] (]) 05:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::::I didn't expect you'd notice that the stricken sentence is exactly what you asked for today, in between condemnations.] (]) 05:46, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::I asked for nothing other than that policy be complied with, and sources not be misrepresented. As for 'footnoted reliable sources', it has already been amply demonstrated that the quotes in at least two were cherry-picked to 'prove' a particular POV, with complete disregard for the broader context which indicated the contrary. Under such circumstances, policy requires their removal. ] (]) 06:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::The "POV" in the stricken sentence is that the tyranny argument gets little traction outside of the U.S. Last I checked, that was your "POV" as well, and also the "POV" of the cited sources. Anyway, as suggested above by other editors, I will do my best to not interact with you anymore, Grump, and I hope you will reciprocate. Nothing good can come of it, and we both end up looking like complete buffoons. Cheers.] (]) 06:14, 30 March 2014 (UTC)


# Enforce the consensus reached in the closed RfC, as no new evidence significantly alters the previous conclusions.
::None of this "duel" nonsense would be welcome in a "civilised country," save in the context of your therapist's office. ] (]) 16:08, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
# Discourage editors from rehashing resolved discussions, particularly when arguments have been repeatedly addressed and dismissed.
# Consider imposing a topic ban or other appropriate measures on editors who persist in disrupting the article with repetitive or bad-faith arguments.


This matter has been discussed exhaustively, and it is essential to prioritize Misplaced Pages's goals of maintaining a high-quality, well-sourced, and consensus-driven encyclopedia.
:::"This is what happens when jihad is waged, motives are impugned, and policies are disregarded." I know Anything thinks that I'm disregarding policy (I disagree), but waging a jihad? Dang! ] (]) 23:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
UPDATE: I just noticed that North Korea was removed as a belligerent and added to the 'supported by' section, completely violating the consensus.
] (]) 08:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:Since this report isn't really about an incident and your request is directed towards admins, I think this complaint would be better placed at ] rather than ANI. It will also need more specifics, which articles, which edits, which editors. You'll need to provide that. I also question whether or not these are content standards that the community can't handle on their own. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::I was going to post it at ] but it said: "'''This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of''' ''general administrator interest.''
::If your post is about a '''specific problem you have''' (a '''dispute''', user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the ''']''' (ANI) instead. Thank you."
::I posted it on ANI beecause my specific problem was this dispute ] (]) 12:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The original post in this thread appears to resemble LLM output. GPTzero confirms this impression, rating text as "99% probability AI generated". Using AI to generate ANI submissions is highly inappropriate. ] (]) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Even when a message appears to be AI-generated, I think it is worth considering whether or not it is pointing out an actual problem. I think editors might be ignoring the results of an RFC, I just don't think asking for administrators to monitor a subject area, without identifying specific articles, is a feasible solution. It does seem like, possibly, a point that could come up in a complaint at AE regarding the Ukraine CTOP area. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I had a peek and it's a messy RfC and, as is generally the case with a messy RfC had a very involved closure message which seems to reflect that the closer felt constrained by the framing of the RfC. I didn't see any immediate indication in the edit history that anyone had tried to implement the RfC result and been rebuffed (although I might have missed it). So there's some smoke here but, I think, not a ton of fire. ] (]) 20:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Liz, I don't disagree but I'm not at all convinced that use of AI is a positive contribution to CTOP areas. ] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::It was written with AI assistance. Not all AI. ai detectors aren’t considered reliable, because you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated. Regardless, whether it’s AI or not has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just that there’a been so many discussions and when I checked the info box it said ‘supported by”, violating the consensus of the RFC ] (]) 12:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::{{tq|you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated}}{{snd}}Well, I just put it through GPTzero and got ''97% human''. Might be best if you don't just make up random "evidence". ]] 17:25, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I think the underlying issue here is that if you use AI to generate text which looks like obvious AI output then readers will wonder "does the end user even have sufficient English to understand what the AI has generated for them?" and "did the end user understand the material prior to deciding to employ AI?". Thus if a user is fluent in English, as you obviously are, it will always be better to communicate in your own voice.
:::::::At the end of the day, a user making a valid point in their own voice is generally speaking going to be taken more seriously than a user employing LLM output.
:::::::There are plenty of other reasons for users not to employ AI (see the recent thread here for extensive coverage) but the argument above seems like a good practical reason for fluent English speakers to always prefer using their own voice.
:::::::You will see from the recent thread that many users here are vehemently against AI use. ] (]) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I understood the material very well, its not like I just used 100% AI out of nowhere. I know the context. I have been involved in this discussion since September. ] (]) 16:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a respect thing. It's disrespectful of other editors to make them read chatbot output rather than ''your'' words. ] (]) 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{external media|video1=}}
::::::::::Rc2barrington's user page says {{tq|This user believes in the bright future AI and robotics will bring}}, so there's probably no point in arguing here. However, I simply observe that in any kind of discussion where you're trying to convince other people, don't use a method that aggravates a significant number of readers (probably a significant ''majority'' of readers). It really is that simple. ] (]) 19:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::<p>Putting the use of LLM aside, however you compose your message you should comply with the basics of ANI. This includes not making allegations without supplying evidence. This would normally be in the form of diffs but in this case just links might be fine. But ] has provided none. </p><p>Probably because this is because their initial complaint appears to be unsupported by what's actually happening. They claimed "{{tqi|Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editor}}". But where is this? I visited the talk page, and what I see is here ] there was a request for clarification from the closer, something which is perfectly reasonably and which the closer followed up on. The OP then offered an interjection which frankly seemed unnecessary. There was then a very brief forumish discussion. To be clear, AFAICT no one in the follow up discussion was suggesting any changes to the article. So while it wasn't he most helpful thing as with any forumish discussion; it's hardly causing that much disruption especially since it seems to have quickly ended and also cannot be called "the same arguments" since there was no argument. No one in that discussion was actually suggesting changing the article. </p><p>Then there is ]. There was again some forumish discussion in this thread which again isn't helpful but wasn't that long. But there was also discussion about other things like the name of the article and whether to restructure it. To be clear, this isn't something which was resolve in the RfC. In fact, the closer specifically mention possible future issues in a non close comment. </p><p>Next we see ]. Again the main focus of the discussion is in how to handle stuff which wasn't dealt with in the RfC. There is a total of 2 short comments in that thread which were disputing the RfC which is unfortunate but hardly something to worry ANI about. </p><p>Next there is ]. DPRK was briefly mentioned there but only in relation to a suggestion to change the infobox for other countries. No part of that discussion can IMO be said to be disputing the DPRK RfC. Next we have ]. Again DPRK was briefly mention but only in relation to other countries. No part of that discussion can be said to be disputing the RfC. AFAICT, the only threads or comments removed from the talk page since the closure of the RfC was by automated archival. The only threads which seem to be post close are on ] and none of them seem to deal with North Korea. </p><p>So at least on the article talk page I don't see what the OP has said is happening. The tiny amount of challenging of the RfC is definitely not something ANI needs to worry about. Even the other forumish or otherwise unproductive comments aren't at a level that IMO warrants any action IMO. If this is happening somewhere else, this is even more reason why the OP needed to provide us some evidence rather than a long comment without anything concrete, however they composed it. </p><p>] (]) 10:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)</p>


== Concern About a New Contributor ==
===Potential section heading issues===
{{atop|Suspected editor was indeed a sock. Unnecessary drama created by all-too zealous reporting--let this be the end of it. ] (]) 21:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
{{userlinks|Kriji Sehamati}}


Dear Wikipedians,
I changed the heading of the previous subsection from "Since it seems clear that Misplaced Pages admins are unwilling to deal with Anythingyouwant's intimidatory behaviour here, I should probably consider taking the matter to ArbCom" to "Further discussion" citing that it was a more neutral section heading, and didn't contain an assertion embedded within it. Also it brought in line with policies. AndyTheGrump (who worded the initial heading) reverted my change. I feel that my change was correct and consistent with and directed by policies and guidelines, and that the version that it was reverted to is a misuse of headings. Sincerely, <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 19:08, 30 March 2014 (UTC)


I hope you’re doing well. I wanted to inform you about a new contributor @], despite lacking experience, has repeatedly attempted to vandalize multiple articles. These articles were properly aligned with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines and reviewed by experienced contributors, but he/she seemed unwilling to understand or respect their adherence to the policies.
:And your doing this is entirely unrelated to the fact that you have been a leading proponent of gun-lobby propagandising on Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with this, is it? In any case, your removal made a complete nonsense of my following sentence. And no, saying that Anythingyouwant was involved in 'intimidatory behaviour' isn't an assertion - it is a statement of fact, as acknowledged by his (half-hearted) apology for it. ] (]) 19:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::I acknowledged no such thing.] (]) 19:19, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::::So the claim regarding 'sincere apologies' you made at ] wasn't 'sincere' after all? ] (]) 20:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::I sincerely apologized for using the word "duel" at your talk page, I do not believe you were intimidated in the least, nor was that my intention, and yet we see the fuss it has caused. My only intention was to convey to you how upsetting your accusations and insults are, but I did it in a suboptimal manner. Anyway, as campaigns of demonization are often successful at Misplaced Pages, I expect you will be getting the results you have been striving for. In the mean time, can you please leave me alone? Thanks.] (]) 20:25, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::If you want to be 'left alone', I suggest you refrain from posting intimations of violence on talk pages in future. ] (]) 20:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::I consider character assassination just as serious as physical violence, and you have done a lot more than intimating as far as that goes.] (]) 20:34, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::So you are no longer denying that your post intimated physical violence? ] (]) 20:50, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::I'm done here.] (]) 20:58, 30 March 2014 (UTC)


I believe your experience could help address this situation effectively.
* I collapsed the section above; Andy reverted. I've got no dog in this hunt, and I request someone else close this and be done with it.] (]) 20:45, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}
===Update===
With no support at the talk page of ], and with opposition from five editors at that talk page (me, Gaijin42, Sue Rangell, North8000, and Darkness Shines), LB has declined to restore any of the following material that she has deleted multiple times against consensus (the deleted text is indicated by strikethrough and I previously quoted it above):
{{cquote|Although gun rights supporters promote firearms for self-defense, hunting, and sporting activities, a further and, according to law professor ], greater motivation is fear of state confiscation and ].<s>The latter motivation is not confined to the United States, though it has gained little traction elsewhere.</s>}}
This deleted sentence is very obviously neutral, well-sourced, relevant, and concise. LB is not a party to the present ArbCom case, so I disagree with the reluctance of administrators here to deal with this issue until the ArbCom case is complete. In any event, assuming I am still around after the ArbCom case, I suppose the only option would be an RFC of some sort, if no action is forthcoming here. Cheers.] (]) 14:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


Looking forward to your advice on how to proceed.
== Disruptive editor at page ] ==


Thankyou! ]] 15:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
The IP ] is being extremely disruptive in a content dispute over at this page. Their actions include:
:*Taking a near constant ]. ]]
:*Refusal to negotiate to reach ] despite several offers to collaborate (], , and ).
:*] (, , ).
:*A series of grudge reverts against ] (, , , , , , , , , , , , and ).
:*] (] and ]).
:*Outright lies .
:*Refusal to understand Misplaced Pages policies such as ], ], ], and most importantly ] (]).
:*Repeatedly removing the version ] and I, as well as ] to an extent, have been attempting to improve, in favor of their own poorly written, poorly sourced, POV version (, , , , and ).
:*Copying of large sections from other articles into the ] .
:*As well as the fact that they have engaged in such interactions ]
:*And adding unsourced/not notable "Criticism" sections to discredit the definition of the term that they disagree with. , .
:*Along with modifying other articles to fit their thesis (, , , and ).
:*And most recently ] to "prove" their point
'''Notes:''' if anyone decides to do something about this, then a extended semi-protection of the page would be most effective since this user's IP changes regularly. ] (]) 01:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


:"Vandalize" is a very loaded word here with a specific meaning. As far as I can tell, what they've done is nominate 4 articles for deletion, and your has been to accuse them of vandalism, ignoring dispute resolution procedures and making personal attacks – none of which I can see at a glance through their contributions.
*'''Comment''' I'm a little puzzled by this posting, given that the IP is already under a 48 hour block for edit warring (his second in a week; G S Palmer was also blocked for edit warring on the article earlier this week - they were at AN3 over the same article in mid-March, but were both warned). There is ''already'' administrator intervention, and there's no need to semi-protect the article if the single individual disruptively using an IP can be handled individually. I do not know if the IP will work within consensus processes after his block expires or if he will continue behaving disruptively, but it had been my intent to continue to monitor and hand out escalating blocks as appropriate to anyone who persisted in edit warring.<br><br>However, I don't have strong feelings about this, and it's already been quite a time suck, so if another admin wants to weigh in or take it on, feel free. :) <br><br>Because the IP ''is'' blocked, he cannot speak in his own defense here. Needless to say, he disagrees substantially with ]'s account above. I considered unblocking him to allow him to participate and might still, but since this section is relatively quiet thought perhaps just reproducing his response to G S Palmer's notice might suffice. I'm collapsing it because it's long. --] <sup>]</sup> 12:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Perhaps if you supplied ] of this behaviour, someone would be able to help? If your issue is that they've nominated 4 articles of which you are a major contributor ''and'' are doing so by going through your contributions in order to find articles to nominate for deletion with specious reasons, then this board would be the place to come. If not, then making your arguments for keeping the articles on the AfDs in question would be your best bet.
{{collapse top|the IP's response}}
:By the way is forum shopping. Stop that. ] (]) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:Yeah, real clever to do that while I can't edit for 48 hours, and then act as though you gave me a chance to reply there. The only disruptive editor is you yourself, for constantly adding unsourced material, your relentless reverting, deleting properly sourced material, and arrogantly refusing to even look at Misplaced Pages Policy, assuming you know best. ] (]) 05:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:(ec) This is an odd one. As S-Aura failed to provide diffs, I looked at Kriji Sehamati's contribution history. New account (9 Dec) began editing today, created two drafts and made a bunch of edits to those. Then began adding COI tags to articles S-Aura wrote, nominated those articles for deletion, and then left a template on S-Aura's talk page. Really seems to be something weird going on here between those two. (In addition to opening this ANI thread, S-Aura asked for help with basically the same message on the talk pages of Ipigott, Ryan shell, CFA, and BusterD, and S-Aura opened same complaint at AN.) ]&nbsp;] 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::I am concerned that ]’s actions, including unjustified deletion nominations and spamming, are disruptive and violate Misplaced Pages’s guidelines.
::She seems to lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related ] and ]. ]] 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::You were asked to provide diffs. You did, almost, but then reverted yourself. Those diffs (well, the ones before those diffs) are just the other user nominating articles for deletion (which is allowed) or tagging them for what they believe to be conflict of interest edits (which is also allowed).
:::Please provide some actual evidence that the other user is engaging in chronic, intractable behaviour, rather than just not editing how you would like them to. ] (]) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Here are some diffs highlighting her problematic edits. However, I believe that many of her contributions may be in violation of Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. It appears she has specifically targeted me and added the COI tag multiple times to the same page. I would appreciate it if you could review her actions more thoroughly:
:::: •
:::: •
:::: •
:::: •
::::and many more
::::Thankyou! ]] 17:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::We wouldn't generally treat an AfD as vandalism. ] (]) 17:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I understand your point about AfDs not generally being treated as vandalism. However, I noticed that the major contribution history of the user seems suspicious. ]] 17:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Not from where anybody else is standing so far. I get that you're upset to have four articles of yours nominated for deletion, and if you have any evidence ''at all'' that you are being deliberately targeted by the other editor, then people will very much act on that. Please provide it. ] (]) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I am here to contribute and edit articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. However, today a new user targeted me and falsely blamed me for actions that are not accurate. I believe this is unfair and not in line with the collaborative nature of the platform. ]] 18:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Please provide evidence of this. ] (]) 18:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Please check! ]] 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::The articles that have been nominated for deletion discussion have been reviewed by experienced contributors. These discussions involve articles about judges and lawyers, under ], a valid criterion according to Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Therefore, the deletion decision was made after carefully reviewing these articles. ]] 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Honestly it looks like this user, rightly or wrongly, believes you have a conflict of interest and are acting on the basis of that assumption. I would suggest, if you don't have a CoI, talking to them about this and maybe asking why they've come to this conclusion. ] (]) 18:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::They have just started targeting my contributions, and I tried to inform her about the situation. However, she is acting as if she knows everything about Misplaced Pages and is dismissing my concerns. ]] 18:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
:{{ping|Kriji Sehamati}} hasn't edited since their AfD spree earlier today, let's wait and see what their response here is when they return to editing. ]&nbsp;] 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*We need to stop focusing on the OP's calling this vandalism; it is not. I've changed the header to reflect that. That said, the new user's edits ''are'' problematic and merit scrutiny. As for the UPE stuff, I've removed that post from the OP's Talk page; it's nonsensical coming from a new user and does not merit a response.--] (]) 18:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*It is, of course, not vandalism to nominate articles for AFD discussions as long as a legitimate deletion rationale is provided and the article hasn't just been discussed at a recent AFD. However, I don't think it's a good sign when a brand new editor claims to understand all of Misplaced Pages policies and whose first actions are to nominate articles at AFDs. They are almost never an actual new editor, especially when they know how to even set up an AFD or are familiar with using Twinkle on their first day of editing. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:It seems that she is not new to Misplaced Pages and might be operating multiple accounts. It appears she has an issue with one of my contributions, as she created her account just 15 days ago, yet she already has a good understanding of tools like Twinkle and AfD procedures. This level of familiarity suggests prior experience on the platform. I am now requesting her account to be blocked as I am completely disturbed by her repeated allegations and disruptive behavior. ]] 11:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::I am now genuinely confused—if all my contributions are not good, then why am I even here? Were the experienced editors who reviewed and approved these pages also mistaken? A newcomer, who joined just recently, is now disrupting and questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors. This situation is deeply discouraging. ]] 11:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::Please resolve this situation—either block her for her disruptive behavior. How can i continue working under such constant targeting and stress ? ]] 12:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::User:S-Aura, you seem to be making unsupported personal attacks against ]. You should provide specific evidence of wrongdoing, including diffs, or your arguments here will fall on deaf ears (and bring consequences for you). Meanwhile, as a filer on ANI, you have brought all your own edits to close scrutiny by the community. You may have to face that smart people disagree, and this is how we sort disagreements out on English Misplaced Pages. You are not required to edit, but we encourage you to do so. Nobody is going to block Kriji Sehamati at this point, because you've given us no reason to do so. ] (]) 12:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Meanwhile, in the last few minutes S-Aura has disruptively about this exact issue on this same board, which by another editor. This is intentional disruption. ] (]) 12:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::As to the question "Why am I here?", poets and artists have been trying to answer this question for eons. Epistemology is outside the scope of this board, but there are articles about it. Show up to edit if you want to, but expect disagreement from time to time. (That's actually a sound answer to any epistemology question as well.) ] (]) 12:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Dear @],
*:::::It means I have been proven wrong, and that user’s contributions have been more focused on me, which is quite insufficient to catch someone’s lie that she is pretending to be new, when in fact she is old.
*:::::Also, I am not against AfD; I am simply expressing my opinion. ]] 13:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Could you please rephrase your point here? I don't understand. While it's okay to be suspicious that this editor is somehow socking or doing something else deceptive due to the familiarity, it seems unacceptable to deliberately accuse them of such repeatedly without firmer evidence. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Dear @],
*:::::::I am not engaged in paid activities on Misplaced Pages, and she claimed that I am connected with the subject, who is a judge, lawyer, etc. You all should understand that this is not a trivial matter; justice is a very respected position. Making such allegations can escalate court cases. I would like to remind you of the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI case. ]] 13:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::One thing you need to understand immediately is you should never make another post that sounds vaguely like a legal threat, as you've just done above. ] That intonation is seriously not helping us decide who's right or wrong here. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::Okay! ]] 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::I will caution you that this is tiptoeing right up to the edge of ] and you'd be advised to avoid making legal threats. ] (]) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::Dear @],
*:::::::::I am merely showing that she can potentially do something inappropriate. I am following the guidelines and not making any legal threats. ]] 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::Accusing another editor of potentially making legal threats is not much better, when there is no concrete evidence that they would do so. Being interested in articles about judges does not suffice. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::The page of Justice ], who had conducted over the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI court hearing, was also created by me. ]] 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::<del>State plainly what the implication you are making here is, because what I'm hearing is "I'm familiar with people who have hit Misplaced Pages with a mallet in court before, and I can make sure it happens again".</del> <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::This is becoming a rabbit hole. I urge you not to pursue the rabbit further. ] (]) 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::Good call, I'll retract the above. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::No, that is not what I am implying. ]] 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::No one has said your contributions are not good. However, it should be noted that a draft being accepted at AfC or a new page having been ] does not guarantee greater scrutiny would not result in a valid AfD nomination. That said, echoing others here it's clear something problematic is up with this user's behavior. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 12:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::You can't both criticize someone for {{tq|lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related ] and ]}}, and then argue that she is too familiar with the platform to be a newcomer for knowing how to file an AfD. I wouldn't be surprised if most people here knew how to file an AfD before knowing all 14 notability guidelines by heart. ] (] · ]) 12:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::There are detailed instructions on filing an AfD that can be found by googling "how can I get a Misplaced Pages page deleted" - if somebody had some personal reason for wanting to have pages removed it doesn't strain credibility to think that's why they created a WP account and that they just followed the very clear instructions on the appropriate pages.
*:::In fact that might explain why some of the AfD filings were reasonable and some were, on their face, incorrectly filed. If you looked up the AfD ''process'' but not ''criteria'' that is the likely outcome. That's why I find the "new user files AfDs must be a sock" idea here somewhat uncompelling. ] (]) 13:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*I believe we're entering boomerang territory at this point. Opinions? ] (]) 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:I think OP is upset that a cluster of their articles were put up at AfD. This in itself is understandable, but while there's reason to think there might be mischief by Kriji Sehamati, we don't have any real evidence of it. We either need the OP to make it clearer what misconduct, if any, has occurred, or they need to ]. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::The OP has been intentionally disruptive (by creating a new ANI thread which was reverted), and this thread is going nowhere. IMHO, there's nothing ANI can do here. Everything I'm reading about should be resolved at the page talk and user talk level, in my opinion. The AfDs are underway. If dispute resolution is needed, fine. Nobody is harming S-Aura. S-Aura can't come crying to ANI (or four random user talk pages like mine) anytime someone merely disagrees with them. ] (]) 14:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::I'd have said close with trout for all if not for creating the second thread at AN/I. Based on that I'd say the OP should be formally cautioned against such antics in the future. ] (]) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::I should have added that I largely hold with Remsense in their position. ] (]) 14:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::] is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages, but we don’t have any evidence because understanding Misplaced Pages’s AfD process so quickly can be a bit challenging. I have no problem with AfD regarding my contributions, and it’s a good thing that experienced contributors are giving their feedback. If you believe that the kriji is 100% correct and her activity is not suspicious, then this discussion should be closed. ]] 14:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::You need to stop insisting this is definitely the case if you don't have any evidence for it, period. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 14:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::S-Aura, how did you make the determination {{tq|User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages}}? Please share your process. That's a personal attack, and requires proof to prevent you from being in violation of ]. I've looked at the AfDs and they seem reasonable to me. When you've provided strong sources the article is being kept. So far the jury is out on the others. Both of you seem to be writing articles about obscure living persons who wouldn't normally (by my cursory reading) have a Misplaced Pages article about them because reliable sourcing is not readily found. When I see that, I must suspect COI or undeclared unpaid editing here, but nobody's admitting to it. ] (]) 15:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::S-Aura's continuing to issue personal attacks makes it more difficult for us to just close this (without some form of consequence for the editor making unproven personal attacks after they've been warned repeatedly). ] (]) 15:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I have made a level-four user talk page warning for the personal attack. FYI. We've been very nice about this up 'til now, but we need to stop being so kind. Doing foolish things has real world consequences. ] (]) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
* Both editors' apparent use of AI is certainly disruptive. If it continues, it should lead to blocks. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 15:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:No personal hate intended, but I just found this and thought it would be worth checking. ]] 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::It would be nice if you could explain the significance for those who do not speak Hausa. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::She had made contributions to pages in other languages a few months ago. I am attaching her contributions link. ]] 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::How does this constitute evidence of sockpuppetry if we aren't to know what exactly happened? There's a reason we don't just automatically block anybody who is blocked on another language wiki, and I looked through the edits some and didn't find anything outrageous that made it past the language barrier. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I agree that it’s important to ensure we have solid evidence before making conclusions. I appreciate your perspective on not automatically blocking users based on blocks from other language wikis. ]] 17:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Please don't reply to me or others using ChatGPT. It is flat-out rude. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support BOOMERANG''' - I've been uninvoled and have mainly just been watching the back-and-forths, but the personal attacks and ] mindset, such as "questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors", concerns me. Not sure for how long, but I don't think anything longer than a months is appropriate given the circumstances. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 15:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*This whole thread, but especially the 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC) comment, feels like the OP is just throwing literally everything at the wall to see what sticks. But, worse, what is being thrown at the wall lacks any significant body of evidence to support. I note that a personal attack warning has been given for the continued unfounded accusations being presented, which I think is a good move. I don't support a block at this point, although if I was the OP I would withdraw this complaint and/or drop the stick and walk away from this topic as a matter of urgency to avoid continuing to make the situation worse. ] (]) 17:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Darkwarriorblake making aspersions ==
:Did you actually read what you wrote? You reported me for being disruptive, for asking you yo use Misplaced Pages Policies such as ], ] etc? And you reported me for an "outright lie", then linked to the page which shows I was right? And '''I''' a the one who has made hostile edits? Have you actually read some of the stuff you wrote in edit summaries, and on the discussion page there? Hopefully, since I can't reply there for 48 hours, someone sensible can actually read all the unpleasantness you have brought to that article and its discussion page, and my attempts in vain to try and explain why your OR article can not be used for Misplaced Pages. And the only reason I copy-pasted Misplaced Pages Policy on that discussion page was because you refused to edit articles using Misplaced Pages Policy. After I had repeatedly asked you not to keep adding unsourced material, referring to Policy, your response was that you refused to read the Policies, and yet you somehow 'knew' that I was "interpreting them overly harshly". I constantly added links, which you stated outright on your own talk page that you were not going to read. So I copied them word-for-word on the discussion page to show they're not "my harsh interpretations", they're Misplaced Pages Policy. And then you continued to edit the way you wanted regardless. So it was a mistake on my part to copy-paste the Policies there, because I naively assumed that it may change your believing that adding reams of unsourced material, and making artciles out of whole cloth may change. ] (]) 05:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
{{atop|result=The OP says they don't care any more which I'm reading as a withdrawal and the other party says they won't be responding again so I'm closing this discussion. My only comment is that both editors in this dispute should have brought this to the article talk page to talk this disagreement out. I don't know if the differences would be resolved but this is what we advise editors to do when their edits are reverted. Now I just have to get that scene in the movie out of my mind. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}

Postscript: Ah, someone just close this, I don't care any more. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 22:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
. ] (]) 05:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

By the way you complain about me removing your unsourced sections, yet you constantly remove this link , , , , and many more... You also remove this: . And you delete this tag here for something that is irrelevant to the subject of the article , where in this source coes it state what you are using it as a reference for? , guess you still haven't read OR . The thing is ALL of these(and more) have been brought up on this discussion page again and again and again, and yet you dismiss it out of hand and keep removing RS, adding unsourced material, using sources to "reference" things that the sources never actually say, and adding irrelevant material, such as your quote from ''Survival'', which thankfully even Mezigue said was utterly pointless being in the article. If you had actually tried to read Misplaced Pages Policies, or engage civilly in the discussion then this would have been avoided. However, you had your own vision of "what the article should be", and nothing, least of all actual Misplaced Pages Policy will convince you that your version is not up to Misplaced Pages standards. ] (]) 05:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}

:If you will keep an eye on the page to make certain that the situation doesn't escalate, that would be fine. The reason that I brought this here was because I worried that once the IP's latest block expired the whole thing would start over again. ] (]) 21:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::I intend to, ]. If the whole thing starts over, editors who edit war will be given escalating blocks. It doesn't help that you do not come to this with clean hands yourself. Please read ] and help avoid muddying the issue. I would suggest that when he returns you ignore your past history or dispute and talk to him about the issues that he raises as if he were somebody else entirely. --] <sup>[[User talk:Moonriddengirl|
(talk)]]</sup> 12:47, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

:Let's set the record straight. The article ] was a rambling, unsourced OR mess. .

I posted this , and received this response .

I edited, making notes. I tried to include others , however .

So I started editing, leaving notes , and still inviting others to discuss it. After some time, I had corrected the article. Was it perfect? Not at all. But it was a first step.

Then, after much editing and discussion, ] appeared.:. This after a long discussion which he chose to ignore..

I tried to clear the air .

But ] was having none of that. I tried bringing up the topic more than once , , , , , , but ] would have none of it.

He has repeatedly removed a ]......such as at , , .

He removed a valid properly sourced section , written by ] of , , , not to mention .

And yet he has no problem adding (removing another tag, and note his explanation. That's in the first paragraph).

He removes tags for sources which never mention the article's subject at all

He deceptively moved a RS which was merely usage of the term, and never described a thing .

He never bothered reading any Misplaced Pages Policy.

But that's no surprise as .

(The only reason I pasted Misplaced Pages Policy on the discussion page was to try and show him where he was going wrong.)

By the way, I brought this up before he posted this here..

The problem is that the article is '''still''' a mess of OR, SYNTHESIS and Unreliable Sources, And of course the fact that he use Lofficier's ] in the first paragraph, yet anyone who actually Lofficier's words sees that Lofficier says almost the exact opposite to what ] states, then falsely claims Lofficier as a ] for. ] (]) 15:15, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

::I hate to say this, but these points aren't very well backed up. ("I tried to clear the air") wasn't even one of yours. I also don't see what point you are trying to prove with the quote from my talk page; it doesn't seem to say anything about whether I would read policy or not. ] (]) 23:34, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

:::It shows my repeated attempts to discuss things. And the relentless dismissal out of hand by you in particular of any sort of discussion. Just as you have now once again removed a RS that adds NPOV and balance to the still OR article. . After .

As for the link, I'm not sure how that happened. I meant to add . ] (]) 04:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Please review my block of Macktheknifeau ==

{{user5|Macktheknifeau}} is unhappy that the consensus went against him ]. The outcome has been that editors have decided to use "soccer" to describe the sport in an Australian context. Rather than challenge the consensus in a collegial way or try to establish a new consensus or a compromise of some kind (any of which I would be open to), he made a series of edits which changed "soccer" to "football", the opposite of what was agreed. is a sample. I have blocked him for 48 hours for violating ]. Please review this block. --] (]) 10:42, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:I've seen these edits on my watchlist and read the other discussions around naming conventions in australian sport. I agree that the series of edits Mack made recently are quite pointy, but I note he is not actually changing from "Soccer" to "Football", but from "Soccer" to "Association Football". As "Association Football" is the correct formal title for the game. My understanding from the previous discussions was that consensus was reached to use "Soccer" over "football" to avoid confusion with Aussie Rules. As the edits here do not do that, though they are pointy, they do seem to put the articles in a position where there can be no confusion and there is no issue over whether a "correct" term is being used. ] (]) 11:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::It varies. edit changes ] to ]. This is the opposite of what the discussion agreed. --] (]) 11:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::: Yes, ] applies. It's also called "soccer" in Canada, even though we have the "Toronto Football Club" that plays Association Football. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 13:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*The entire discussion, in which Macktheknife participated, was to stave off discussion for a while to let cooler tempers prevail and work on other things than the name. The block for pointiness is thus warranted. ] (]) 13:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*Macktheknifeau's attitude was clear even before a consensus was reached. Their vote said: "Small group of Victorians can't be allowed to dictate changes to globally recognised name. Victoria doesn't have priority over planet." When Mack then defied the consensus, a block was justified. The post-block discussion between John and Mack is progressing somewhat. Mack claims that the anti-consensus changes they made were "inadvertent", although at the same time calling the consensus "illegal" (whatever that means). The last comment in the discussion is from John attempting to get Mack to have some insight into their behavior.--] (]) 13:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*I've had my own run-ins with this editor over football/soccer-related articles (believe it came to ANI then as well), they are disruptive and do not abide by consensus or policies/guidelines. Good block. ]] 13:53, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
* I'm not commenting on this specific case, but in general, I think it's a good idea not to do a block and then ask for a review. Instead, please discuss before blocking. If the threat is so imminent that there's no time to discuss, then obviously the block is necessary and there's no need to discuss. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:*I think it's up to the admin which way to do it. There's a spectrum between "imminent" and the length of time a discussion may take such that if one waits for a conclusion, the block may not be timely. It's not easy to forecast how long a discussion will take.--] (]) 19:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::* Isn't it our goal to avoid blocks? If a problem becomes stale without a block, but isn't repeated, that's a good thing. If the admin isn't certain a block is needed then and there, don't do it. Discuss the problem with the user or at AN/I and see if a resolution is possible. If the user goes and does the problematic thing again while the discussion is ongoing, then block. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:39, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::*I am absolutely certain a block was needed there and then. This has been discussed previously with the user and the user has previously been blocked once before for a similar but less pointed breach of policy. That block was reviewed at this board ]. The general issues surrounding my enforcement of this area were discussed there and also ], and ]. I committed at the start of this process to having any admin actions taken in this area reviewed here at AN/I as a form of transparency and accountability. So far the community has been kind enough to endorse my actions in this area. If you have any serious qualms after reading these links I would like to hear them; if not I will continue to work to try to solve the problem. --] (]) 22:07, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Good block'''. This editor has engaged in exactly this sort of behavior before; hopefully the block will result in an improved editing process for them. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*I'm not really a fan of this idea of block review and as such agree with Jehochman, but in cases of disruptive editing (rather than simple vandalism etc.) a block is often a signal, a word to the wise, and a review, if editors and admins agree of course, can strengthen that message: this was not just a block by a single grumpy admin, and the behavior for which a user was blocked is indeed deemed disruptive by a group of editors and admins. Stronger signal, fewer claims of admin abuse. ] (]) 03:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*I participated in the soccer ''vs.'' football discussion, and I don't think it would be desirable for me to express an opinion on the block. However, I support the unusual mentoring that John has undertaken to resolve the long-term bickering, and I support the idea of bringing blocks to ANI for review as an exception to what is normally done. The benefit of discussions like this is that the participants will learn whether John's actions have the backing of the community, and whether future claims of INVOLVED are likely to be successful in derailing the process. There should not be many blocks, and the time spent reviewing them would be much less than the time required to deal with the soccer/football war if John's mentoring fails. ] (]) 05:15, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

It is very wrong to block an editor and then a tart a discussion about them in a venue where they can't respond. While it may not be John's intention, he has engaged in public humiliation as a form of punishment. Blocks aren't to "send a signal," they are to prevent harm. If you want to send a signal you talk with the editor and if that doesn't work, go to this board and ask for additional feedback. Blocking and then denouncing the editor while they are blocked is not fair. ] <sup>]</sup> 06:37, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:Did you actually read John's post at 22:07, 29 March 2014 (UTC), especially the bit that said "''This has been discussed previously with the user and the user has previously been blocked once before for a similar but less pointed breach of policy''"? This is hardly a first offence by an otherwise perfect citizen. I have been routinely abused by this editor for being a member of and posting as part of some sort of evil group of supporters of another sport. He has been doing it for years. It is only John's incredibly thorough approach that is finally highlighting to administrators where the real problems lie in those discussions, and how bad they really are. Those of us who have been posting in good faith for years, and occasionally becoming frustrated at the absolute nonsense being repeatedly presented by a small number of editors, are finally seeing some justice. Anyone who bothers to have a proper look at what has been going on there, as John now has, will see the truth. ] (]) 06:45, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::@Jehochman: Your concept is flawed. An editor who does not respond to comments left on their talk page may indeed respond to a short block -- that's just (unfortunately) human nature. That makes the "sending of a signal" a legitimate part of the overriding concept that blocks are preventative, not punitive. Not everyone is predisposed to talk about what they're doing, some have to be persuaded to do so with a bit of force. The choices to be made differ from editor to editor, and espousing a blanket policy regardless of circumstances isn't particularly helpful. You might thin about that the next time this kind of situation comes up. ] (]) 10:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

==Requesting a block for ]==

This user has been busy constituting nuisance and fighting everyone on wikipedia. he/She seems to be here for his/her own personal agenda and he/she has been making articles to be biased. As I see it, he/she is always removing anything 'Anti-Ghana' and it doesn't matter to him/her whether they are sourced or not. Here are the following reasons I think this user should be blocked.

*Personal attacks - he/She is always against people who reverts her propaganda posts and she results to personal attacks, name calling. etc on the user talkpages. You can see an example of that at the bottom of my talk page in . That was just because I placed a warning on her talk page concerning his/her disruptive edits.

*Gross Incivility - he/She reverts edits with flimsy excuses and never discusses with other users, an example can be found with his/her various reverts on ] article history. he/She reverts anything antiGhana in the article even if they are appropriately sourced. he/she seems to be the only one against the contents. Various warnings has been placed on his/her ], but he/she is never ready to discuss the concerned article/content. Instead he/she removes such warnings instantly and instigates a fight on the users' talkpages. You can see the various warnings placed on her talkpage (including mine) by clicking on the ''history'' of the talkpage.

*Edit Warring: he/she has been reverting a particular content like since forever on the ] article. Other users keep readding the content but he/she keeps removing it. This is the . Please note that the other IP addresses reverting the same content belongs to him/her as the edit summaries are similar to the one he/she gives. He/she considers it "An anti government rant". I don't think this content should be removed as well as it is well sourced and I believed both the 'good' and 'bad' should be included on Misplaced Pages to achieve NPOV. Another example is the one she just started on the article ]. '''Note that this user has also broken the ]'''.

Thanks--] (]) 15:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
****
::This user and his friend (]) are fishing around to block me (He wrote to someone to have me blocked) They have tagged teamed on me for no reason. ] has made himself the authority on many articles and no one can dare to make an edit with him reverting. He has filled the ] with bias claims and invalid sourced from gossip and entertainment mags as his source of reference. He also game on the ] page
::and reverted a claim has been disputed since 2013 me and several others have worked very hard on the article to make it neutral If you look at my edits I have not removed anything anti- Ghana like he claim ..claiming international accounts of corruption with no proof and adding references from entertainment sites in an anti government rant is not something that is suppose to be in an wiki article.

::Those sources are not even approved based on wikis standards, this editor and his friend can not bully people for making edits just because they don't like it. He is calling my edits propaganda yet he has done nothing but glorify the pages he edit. I am not from west Africa and many of the other editors that I have worked on the Ghana page with are not either. I have nothing to gain. Yet the articles he has worked on for Nigeria is filled nothing but claims from unverifiable sources their edits need to be looked into. he edit that I reverted in the Cinema of Nigeria has sources from an online African gossip entertainment magazine. He and his friend ] are coming after me because I told them to get true sources ] (]) 16:03, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

::People should not gang up to stop others from contributing..wikipedia is an open forum I am not going to be bullied and threaten by these two editors and I don't think their propaganda based edits should be allowed] (])

{| class="toccolours collapsible collapsed" align=center style="border: solid 1px #208020; background-color: #d9f9d9;"
|-
! Irrelevant discussions: containing personal attacks from the accused as well
|-
| <s>:::*LOL, you need to calm down. No one is out to get you. You are infact still displaying a reason why you should be blocked. I just checked the content you have been removing from ] to see if I was mistaking. lol, I never knew , , et al are gossip and entertainment websites (excuse the pun). And the topic you were removing from ] is an entertainment related topic, it's appropriate to get sources from reliable entertainment websites. Besides, don't transfer aggression on me, people have been readding the contents before I noticed it myself and I warned you. Checking your talkpage history, I saw various other wikipedians have warned you about the same edit warring and some other disruptive edits. That is the major reason I had to report you.</s>--] (]) 17:36, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

No wikipedians have "warned" me about the edit. there have been disputes over it since it was added to the article. This is not some game. if you were not out to "get me" you and your friend (]) wouldn't be fishing around to try to get me blocked all because I told you to get true sources. Misplaced Pages is not a blog its an encyclopedia so NO those sources mentioned there not valid sources for an encyclopedic article especially since it evolved claims of impeaching the current president. Ghanaweb is a user based online site any member can write an article and post it there. Also maybe you do not understand but Wiki articles are suppose to be neutral. That is why I removed those unwarranted bias claims. Also it is an article about the Country not a political party. What was you reason for reverting the edit in the first place.

If anyone needs to be blocked I think it's you. I have looked through all the articles you work on and it's the same sources from online blogs and gossip magazine. You comment up there just proves my point you have an ethnocentric agenda for Nigerian articles and you think I am Ghanaian so just because I told you to get true sources to back your claims you are trying to get me blocked.

Based on how you used this ] source for your article on the ] as well as all the articles you have created on I do not think you understand what is valid source is.] (]) 18:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not have anything to say to you or your friend (]) the admin he went to to try to get me blocked told him that. that is not how wikipedia work. You can try to paint me as the bad guy all you want but the truth about your edits and how you two are trying to get me blocked is right there. I have said all I have to say the admins will look into it. ] (]) 18:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

:{{ping|Thesunshinesate}} Lol. Davidwr is not an administrator. I was only asking him to contact an administrator he knows to speed up your block. Just so you know, this page is the administrator noticeboard, so everything you say here will be read by administrators. You can't be reason with, and your attitude towards others needs an overhaul. Maybe when you get block, you will change your attitude and approach. ] (]) 18:53, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

When did you ever try to "reason" with me or even try to discuss something with me. All you ever did was threaten me. What part do you play in all of this anyway. It's all because I told your friend there to provide valid sources and yes I am very well admins can see everything I say here. Thank you for coming here to confess that you did go around to look for someone to block me. If this was really about my edits why go about it in such a shady way? you two are going around making propaganda based edits and articles concerning Nigeria and the only reason you have tag teamed on me is because when I called out the bias claims in the Cinema on Nigeria article you saw that I had contributed on the Ghana page and you decided to launch this attack on me. Again thank you for coming here to confess. I am glad you proved my point. like I said I've stated my claims and I have stated the explanation for my edits, I will leave it to the admins] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned"> — Preceding ] comment added 19:23, 29 March 2014 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

<s>::* {{ping|Thesunshinesate}} Just like you said, Misplaced Pages isn't anybody's father's parlour. If you are looking for a place where your opinion rules, feel free to start ''ThesunshineSate Encyclopedia''. You need to learn how to relate with other editors. Everybody readding your alerged 'antigovernment ranting' can't be wronged at the same time. And the sources are valid enough for the article. BTW, I don't care if you are Ghanaian or Somalian. I am part of WikiProject Africa; I am to ensure Neutral point of view on African articles and watch out for people like you editing to suit their tastes. I have also contributed extensively to articles and people add negative Content everytime, I don't remove them. Once they are well sourced, I'm fine.</s>--] (]) 19:39, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

<s>:::*When people warn you, you are suppose to explain the reason you did what you are being warned for, not start personal attacks. You really can't be reasoned with. I've known you just for the past 24 hours and really......I don't know! I give up on you, for administrators to investigate your account and see your edits. Do you know I've had intense issues with the User you are calling 'my friend'? You need to stop these sentiments and focus on what is.</s>--] (]) 19:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

What is my opinion? The fact that those sources you use do not meet Misplaced Pages standards or the fact that section added to the Ghana page was not from a credible sources? you mention it was well sourced? Yet the sources you mention Ghanaweb and the others do not meet the criteria. Have you seen Misplaced Pages's policy on references and sources? If you have then tell me what I have done wrong. Also you say want neutrality on articles but you are reverting edits to a claims that is specifically an attack against that country's ruling political party and talks of impeaching the presidents without any proof yet and you are trying to get me blocked because I said it shouldn't be there because the claims are unwarranted. And you turn around to mention you want neutrality in articles. If any of you truly wanted to talk to me or discus with me you could have. The frist thing you did was sent me a warning and a treat. You never asked to engage in a dialogue with me. Stop making this about the Ghana page when its not. You and your friend there are trying to get be blocked because I called you out on those propaganda based edits on the Nigerian articles that you make ] (]) 19:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I am not going to argue with you, you brought me here to try to get me blocked for no apparent reason other than the fact that I said get true sorces for your claims] (]) 19:57, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

<s>:*Ghanweb is a reliable news source. You are the one who needs to check wikipedia's policy. And let's even assume to agree Ghana Web is not reliable. Is Ghana web the only reference cited? For crying out loud there is a newspaper source that published the claim. And I wasn't the one who added any of the content you are exhibiting propaganda on.</s>--] (]) 20:07, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

{{ping|Jamie Tubers}} ] can't be reason with. I don't have time to go back and forth with him/her. Thesunshinesate won't stop at nothing to justify his/her wrong doings. To make things worse, he/she has the nerve to insult you on your talk page, and then say that we are "ganging" up on him/her. smh. I personally feel that Thesunshinesate shouldn't be editing Misplaced Pages. For your information Thesunshinesate, Misplaced Pages is not ]. If you love censored information, I suggest you go elsewhere. ] (]) 20:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Can you all stop arguing long enough to let some other folks comment on your dispute? This is just a continuation of the bickering I see on your user talk pages. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 21:25, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
|}
:Seconded. Also while I only very quickly skimmed through the discussion, this is not a good place to debate whether something is a RS. Try ] if discussion on the article talk page fails or use some other form of ] as appropriate like an ]. ] (]) 21:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Simple edit warring complaints belong at ] not here and don't need anywhere near the level of discussion you're involved in here. BTW while there may be enough edit warring for a block I didn't see any clear cut 3rr violation. They are at the limit now but their previous revert before now to ths Ghana article was well outside the 24 hour window. ] (]) 22:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

::*I'm not concerned about his/her edits or want to prove anything concerning their reliability, he/She can discuss that with the other contributors on the articles (If he/she will). I only noticed he/she is busy edit warring and always attacking anybody who warns him/her about it. That's the reason I reported the user. --] (]) 21:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

::::*It was ] that raised useless and irrelevant issues claiming someone is out to get him/her or something. Good, you also noticed the edit warring was evidently very much. And what about the personal attacks he/she is always giving anyone who notifies or even tries to advise her on the edits?--] (]) 22:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

::::*3RR was evidently broken too. , and were all made within 24 hours--] (]) 22:21, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::*Yep, that's ''three'' reverts. Where is the ''fourth'' revert that constitutes a 3RR violation? - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:33, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay. And the personal attacks and abuses?--] (]) 22:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

::::::An editor can raise whatever they want, there's no need to respond to them if they are irrelevant to the discussion particularly when your comments are further irrelevant to the discussion. In other words, saying 'the other editor started it' is never a winning argument. And they are indeed irrelevant to this discussion, the reliability of the sources is no excuse for edit warring and should be established somewhere besides ANI (note that my message was directed at all primary participants of this discussion). As for the personal attacks, I had a brief look and their comments do seem problematic but it's not something I can be bothered looking in to. Consider this an example of the problems when you engage in long, irrelevant, argumentation on ANI before anyone gets a look in. Even if there are some legitimate complaints, by the time anyone knows what they are many are not going to bother to look in to them. ] (]) 02:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

*], Nil Einne gives you very good advice about ANI posting, but you did right to take the problem here. I agree with you that ] is ] and very sure they're right at all times (for instance , where they clearly don't know what the policy says). As is illustrated by their talkpage and even by their input in this thread, which shows much assumption of ]. (I must say, when people talk about their opponents being a "tag team", it rings a warning bell for me.) Admins and others are watching now, and Thesunshinesate has been warned on their page. I can only see two outcomes of that: either they change their approach to editing and their attitude to other contributors, or they get blocked pretty soon. ] &#124; ] 10:20, 30 March 2014 (UTC). <''<small>Addition: Plus I've just noticed that their comments on ] have been even worse, with some classic template abuse (a 4th-level "harassment" template, which is ridiculous). ] &#124; ] 12:37, 30 March 2014 (UTC).</small>''>

:*I just went through the contributions of the user and considering the claims of 'many' contributions, I had to conclude the user must have been editing anonymously as well. I went through the Ghana page and I saw that the previous disruptive reversions were made by anonymous IP addresses, then this user comes up to continue the reversions when the page got protected. This is really suspicious and a clear sign of bad faith. I'm very sure the following IP Addresses were used by this user (there may be more): ], ], ], ] and ]. I came to this conclusion because they have things in common with this User: the IPs made that same revert on the pages this user is involved in, the other contributions on those IPs (mostly disruptive) are similar/same with the topics this user edits and there are lists of warnings on the talk pages of those IPs (especially the first one) regarding the edits. I have reasons to believe this user infact only uses this account for protected pages, but regularly edits anonymously. I may be wrong though, as I'm aware IP addresses may be shared.--] (]) 13:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::You make good points, Jamie, though it's an exaggeration to say that the name account is only used when articles are semiprotected; it has edited several non-protected articles in the last couple of days. However, 216.165.95.64, the one with all the talkpage complaints going back to 2008 without a break, and several blocks, certainly quacks like a ], especially if we consider the edit summaries. 216.165.95.64 writes ''"remove npov political attack attacks against current rpresident does not belong in encyclopedic article''; and when the article has been semiprotected, Thesunshinesate echoes ''"revert NPOV anti govment rant with has no place in article"''. (Note especially the use of "NPOV" when presumably "POV" is meant, a signature for this user.) I was just going to block that IP for three months, when I noticed that ], a ] blocked the same IP in 2008 as part of a sockfarm. Alison, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a look at them now, in relation to Thesunshinesate and the other IPs. Their brother 216.165.95.66 doesn't have any similar bad history, and the other IPs you mention, Jamie, have IMO likely enough also been used by the same individual — they revert similar information, and geolocate to the same area — but they're dynamic, and haven't been used much, nor very recently (they're probably being used by someone else by now). Anyway, I hope we hear from Alison. If she's not editing, I will block the duck in a day or so. ] &#124; ] 16:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC).

::::Mass removals of content similar to what is being discussed here have been happening since . There have also been multiple registered users that have removed content that portrays the government of Ghana in a negative light, including, in chronological order, {{user|Citizen gh}}, {{user|Exdogbaste}}, and {{user|Medicineman84}}. However, Medicineman84 registered way back in 2007, and has made many constructive contributions. It is possible that there is both sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry taking place. —&nbsp;<span style="border:1px solid #00007f;background:#07ffff;padding:1px;"><font face="Times New Roman">]‧]‧]‧</font><font face="Lucida Handwriting">]</font></span> 18:01, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

:::::*If you asked me, I think the four accounts belong to the same person.--] (]) 19:58, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

*Thanks for your research, Jamie and Sam. I'm feeling a little out of my depth with this possible sockfarm. I've contacted another checkuser as well as Alison, who doesn't seem to be online right now, but if the worst comes to the worst, I suppose one of us will have to file an ] (groan). ] &#124; ] 11:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC).

*Interim report: a checkuser is looking at it. Watch this space. ] &#124; ] 16:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC).
**Oh, I'm watching! this is SO exciting! ] (]) 02:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Genre Warrior Andrewbf ==
{{user-t|Andrewbf}}<br>
The user Andrewbf is long-time genre warrior who has been warned repeatedly about WP:GWAR and has ignored all warnings and input from other editors. Never once has explained genre changes or tried to gain consensus. Does not provide sources to support changes. All attempts to communicate with this user have been completely disregarded, and this can't keep going on. ] (]) 23:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)/04:26, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{ping|XXSNUGGUMSXX}}, you need to provide the differences or links to show the user has been GWARing and that attempts to ask for an explanation have turned to deaf ears. Give the admins something to work on. —] · <sup>] ]</sup> 04:58, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::Here are samples: . User has received notices on talk page from myself , {{ping|STATicVapor}} , {{ping|Jim1138}} , {{ping|Lightsout}} , {{ping|Etheldavis}} , {{ping|Flat Out}} , and IP 183.171.179.131 regarding these unexplained/unsourced changes. Every single attempt so far has gotten no response and user has not stopped even a 31-hour block from admin {{ping|Elockid}}. As a matter of fact, Andrew quickly resumed genre warring after the block expired. Admin {{ping|Diannaa}} has left a notice on the user's page, though I'm not sure how effective it will be given the user's dismissal of warnings. ] (]) 04:09, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::: I put one more "final warning" on his talk page and will monitor. Editing has stopped for now. -- ] (]) 18:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I noticed that, and thank you. It wouldn't surprise me to see Andrew resume GWAR'ing, though..... ] (]) 20:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: I have put this in my calendar and will monitor his edits. -- ] (]) 20:20, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Notice of facts ==
{{archive top|Short answer, as ever, is "no." ]&nbsp;]] 09:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)}}

To:
The Administrators
Misplaced Pages English language project
"en.wikipedia.org'

Sirs

Kindly be advised and take notice of fact that the Registrar of your domain name(s), M/s Mark Monitor Inc, is not replying to repeated communications sent to them by the Top Level domain administrators concerning the a) libels against and b) impersonation of the "India Against Corruption". These notices have been issued by the Internet Domain administrators to enforce Terms of Use for registration of Misplaced Pages domain names, especially anti-abuse and impersonation clauses therein.

The impugned article, which can be easily viewed in India, is "paid content" written by a paid editor to promote various impersonators who are using "India Against Corruption" name, copyright and trademarks to solicit votes as candidates for ongoing Parliamentary elections under election tickets of ]. The continuance of these articles on your website is in violation of India's laws and also US laws, and constitutes "lobbying" and is a direct interference by foreigners and foreign agencies in India's democracy and India's democratic processes. The concerned WMF trustee from India is now well apprised of the dispute over this article and the public domain information of rampant abuse by Indian PR agencies to write fake articles on Misplaced Pages with connivance of involved Misplaced Pages administrators .

India Against Corruption therefore requires that the Administrators of this website/domain "en.wikipedia.org" take immediate steps, and not later than thirty six hours in any case, to comply with India's laws in addition to US laws, to disable publication of the impugned article within the territory of India, where elections are in progress and a model code of conduct is notified, promulgated and in force. The continuance of these paid promotional contents on Wikimedia Foundation servers, and in violation of WMF Terms of Use, for purpose of lobbying and influencing the outcome of India's elections by foreigners is a violation of the Hosting privileges accorded to Internet Intermediaries in India

'''Please also note that India Against Corruption has not initiated any "legal" proceedings against Misplaced Pages /WMF, and this notice of facts is not a legal threat, so kindly do not assume this notice to be a legal threat.'''

The IAC complaint to the Internet authorities is an administrative remedy invoked by IAC after the paid editor stopped participation, in Mediation, to discuss his edits, his sources or the unimpeachable counter evidence / sources IAC provided to rebut his malafide content and sources, thereby causing the Mediator to close the Mediation for reason of non-participation by Misplaced Pages community. IAC is now also in possession of emails from the authors of the reliable sources cited by the paid editor, which disclaim and decry the usage of their scholarly books on Misplaced Pages to malign our body. The 2 OVERSIGHT requests made thereafter by IAC for the defamation/libel and privacy issues have not been replied to by Misplaced Pages's Administrators either.

Finally, please note that we shall be using this IP address for future communications, if any. We advise you to kindly seek opinion of the General Counsel of Wikimedia before again taking any unilateral hostile actions against "India Against Corruption" as was done in the past.

"HRA1924"
for India Against Corruption <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{hab}}

:In response to the above, see Arkell v. Pressdram. ] (]) 06:33, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

::'''Private Eye lost eventually''' admitting ''"Mr Arkell has now, albeit belatedly, complied with the suggestion made to him at an earlier stage of the proceedings."''. ] (]) 07:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::The source you cite (a forum, so probably not RS) seems to say that they won. ] (]) 07:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Au Contraire'''. Snopes is as reliable an authority on exposing internet hoaxes as Misplaced Pages is as an encyclopedia :-). "nasw.org" is not a legal reporting site. Nonetheless, Mr.Pressdram verifiably paid up, Mr.Arkell took the money and went away, leaving Private Eye to gripe and ] the ] version cited.] (]) 09:26, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
----
Post-close factual note: the Snopes thread concludes by noting that according to Adam MacQueen's 'Private Eye: The First 50 Years', although Arkell proceeded, the case fell apart and Pressdram received costs (Pressdram is a company, not an individual, it is the publisher of record of Private Eye). When they say that Mr. Arkell did eventually comply, they mean that he did eventually go away. This interpretation is supported by . I don't know of any reliable authority for the claim that Arkell won, and it seems hardly plausible that the running joke would exist if he had, since it would essentially be libellous. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 16:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
---- ----
I'm posting here after a particularly underwhelming interaction with an editor in the form of edit summaries. I'll need to provide the context of a brief content dispute which hopefully won't take too long and then get to the point. I'm not asking for anyone to take my side in the dispute.
When one says Pressdram "received" costs, it means that costs were awarded ''against'' Pressdram. If Pressdram had won, it would say Pressdram was ''awarded'' costs. Anyhow, this letter is a hoax. ] (]) 17:44, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}


'']'' is a widely acclaimed comedy film from 1983, which is also widely acknowledged to have problematic elements by modern standards, including a scene in which the villain of the piece, stuck in a gorilla costume, is locked in a cage with a real gorilla, which is implied to sexually penetrate him without his consent.
== Block requested ==
{{archive top|1=Blocked. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 04:55, 31 March 2014 (UTC)}}
An I.P. editor {{user|99.68.24.85}} has made ten random vandalism edits in the last half hour. ] (]) 07:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:Blocked for a week by {{user|Hahc21}}. Vandalism reports are normally filed at ]. ] ] 07:42, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}


The article states that ] demurred being cast in the role upon finding that out. for this claim is a ] on ], which contains the sentence
== Suspicious edits ==
: ''Reportedly, Liddy was on board until he got to the part where Beeks .''
{{archive top}}
Reportedly ''by whom'' is not mentioned, let alone is there a direct quotation from Liddy. Plus as can be seen the words "becomes a gorilla's mate" are linked to a very poor quality, hand-held video of the scene in question playing on a television. This alone should be enough to raise serious questions about the use of this "source" in a featured article.
<div style="margin: 1em;" class="resolved"><span style="border: 1px solid #aaa; background-color: #f9fcf9; margin-right: 0.5em; padding: 0.5em;">] Resolved&#58;</span> <span style="font-size: 85%">Blocked by ]. --] <sup>]</sup> 15:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)</span></div>
{{IPvandal|86.26.247.171}} is making suspicious edits. This editor is adding causes of death to biographies. He is doing so at such a very high rate that it is unlikely that these edits are researched. Some are blatant vandalism (). I suspect all of these edits are just vandalism, but since it is not obviously so, I'm reporting here instead of at ]. ] (]) 14:11, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:See ] for the background to this. &nbsp;—]]&nbsp; 15:21, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:I checked a few of them and they were verifiable. I didn't look into the sockpuppet issue. I restored one edit with a citation, then decided not to do more, since I'm not sure the info belongs in infoboxes. In the case of ], the info (died by suicide) was already present and cited in the article text. ] (]) 00:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC) Added: you're right that the Carl Berner one is dubious at best, though ] died of AIDS at a rather advanced age, apparently contracted from a blood transfusion during surgery. ] (]) 00:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}


The content dispute began when I changed it like this () with the comment ''Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs'':
== Severe canvasing and meat puppetry on Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Friendly_artificial_intelligence ==
{{text diff|Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla.|Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks is raped by a gorilla.}}


This was reverted () by {{u|Darkwarriorblake}} with the comment ''not what the source says''.
Concerning ]. This is not directed at any one editor, but referring to an unfolding process of canvasing on this deletion discussion page. The situation is becoming increasingly convoluted due to the calls to help the page from those relevant to it and related to the poster. In a nutshell: the topic is mathematically impossible, which is why it has, in the years it was presented on the Web informally, and on this encyclopedia, had no technical peer-reviewed theory or proof in the literature. And the only two sources that are available are from a non-technical source that just happens to be published as a book of essays by Springer, which is easy to confuse at first glance with the journalistic quality areas of that organiztion. This was all pointed out and it was requested that notable sources be provided, but not a single valid citation in this now overlong discourse on the page has been brought up. The reason this isn't going to happen is because these sources don't exist, which any administrator will quickly be able to verify. I am posting this here because of the obvious canvasing and puppetry that is occuring, and that there have been claims made of bad faith. I do not wish the page to devolve from the focus on the topic any further and strongly believe administrative intervention is needed. Thanks in advance. --] ] 18:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)


After thinking about it a moment I came to the conclusion described above about the quality of the source, and decided that it was better out than in, which is what I should have done in the first place.()
*The discussion has become a bit long winded but is on topic and well within civility standards, surprisingly so. I don't yet see any puppetry, although I would agree that monitoring is a good idea. COI editing isn't against policy, although it is good to note for the discussion. At this stage, there isn't anything else to do. I have faith the closing admin can weigh the discussion and the COI in order to determine a consensus. If a wave of new editors comes, they can be tagged as SPA and likely the closing admin will greatly (or completely) discount their !votes. ]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;] 18:22, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
**I don't think that COI is much of an issue at AfD, as opposed to article editing, where NPOV needs to be maintained. On the other hand, AfD is really all about policies and opinions, and if a COI commenter doesn't have policies to support their opinion, the closer is unlikely to put much weight on their comments. If there are no reliable sources, the article is unlikely to be retained, no matter who expressed what opinion about it.<p>On the other hand, it's generally counter-productive to have one editor respond to '''''every''''' differing opinion with more commentary, as it creates the impression of hounding and of attempting to squealch further commentary. Best, instead, to allow everyone to have their say and leave it to the closer to put the weight where it belongs. ] (]) 22:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
:::I wrote an essay on that, ] some time ago. ]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;] 22:33, 30 March 2014 (UTC)


{{text diff|...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks. Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla. Paul Gleason took the role;...|...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks with Paul Gleason eventually taking the role;...}}
(moved here from unnecessary new thread:)


My accompanying comment was ''(a) That was the source's voice, not Liddy's. It's called a euphemism. Demonstrable by how it links to a clip of the scene in which a man is raped by a gorilla. (b) Source says "reportedly" for this claim, without evidence. Poor quality source. Removing claim''
I've been extremely civil and on policy over the long course of the discussion on the ]. I've asked for assistance from admins early on, and we managed to resolve some of the issues. The page was canvased and the responses became very long as a result. A lot of people came in treating it as a vote. Things managed to settle for a while. However, now, an admin by the name of Silence has come in and I'm not certain that they are acting in the best interest of consensus. I was dissapointed by being attributed as making statements I did not make, which were quoted and presented as if I had said them. This seems unduly difficult coming from an administrator, and I'm concerned about balance. Also, some of my comments were "accidentally deleted" as well, but I've still assumed good faith. But it is becoming more difficult. I've now asked if we could keep from addressing editors and stay on point. I also very politely suggested that we are at an impasse and to not engage in simple contradiction to help with brevity. Others are now ignoring the AfD status and attempting to cull the page contents to sway the AfD decision. I'm not sure if that is balanced, but it would be grand if several other eyes could help smooth things out. Thanks in advance. --] ] 10:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC


That was reverted by Darkwarriorblake () with the comment ''Nothing wrong with Indiewire as a source, if there is I'd raise it at ]. Until then, there's a talk page for you to use per ]. Your comments sound agenda driven and therefore not Neutral.''
== Ihardlythinkso blanking articles in order to make a point ==


This is where the reason for me to raise this at this board begins, because that's solidly an example of ]. It came on top of a revert which reintroduced a claim cited to a rumor in a blog post into a featured article, but that's really not my concern, because if the champions of the featured article process have decided that it's somehow acceptable for our "best" content then I'm just going to move on to something else rather than argue.
{{userlinks|Ihardlythinkso}}


There's one final back and forth which was enough to motivate me to post here. First, I reverted that revert (, my only time using the actual "Undo" button today), with this comment: ''a good source doesn't say "reportedly" (ie, spread a rumor), it specifies the origin of a fact. My only "agenda" is with a crap listicle being used as a reference, regardless of who published it. Take it to talk if you want to argue for the continued inclusion of a trash ref in a featured article, or source the claim properly yourself''.
Ihardlythinkso has been blanking and disrupting articles he has contributed to in order to make a ]. , , , , , , ,


This was reverted - again - by Darkwarriorblake () with the comment '' How are you an admin? "rape played for laughs" is an agenda, this went through FA as is so ] and ] apply. You must go to the talk page, not I. I don't know if you're going through a bad time or something but this isn't how an admin should be acting or communicating with others, up to and including ]''
A number of editors have discussed this issue with him, but he hasn't stopped. I brought it up on his talk page, , and got ''quite'' a response back. His posts to other users, such as {{u|Quale}}, have recently been way over the NPA line.


At this point it's gone firmly into the realm of knee-jerk reversions, because if Darkwarriorblake took the time to read the article which they've (is this ]? Kind of feels that way), they would get down to the ] section. Which says "some critics have praised the film while highlighting elements that they believe aged poorly, including racial language, the use of blackface, and the implied rape of Beeks by a gorilla", cited to articles in four major publications. Or, you know, even .
*
*
*
His to me was, frankly, even worse.


So anyhow regardless of whether the Indiewire source is deemed suitable or not, I'm just wondering what the feeling here is about someone making goofy assertions on the record that another editor has "an agenda" (what agenda could it be?) and may not be emotionally stable, which really doesn't feel like ] at all. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 20:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
I think a block for disruption and personal attacks is, unfortunately, warranted in order to prevent this sort of editing from continuing. &nbsp; &mdash; ]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">&middot; ]]</span> 00:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:Hrrm, this seems a bit excessive.
:*I've added a second source for the claim. Really this should've been the first option rather than removing the content.
:*The first summary was, as stated, "Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs". "Rape played for laughs" is a loaded comment and not something said in the article or the source text, so it's a personal opinion, it's not neutral, it's agenda-driven.
:*When this was reverted, the editor just removed the content entirely claiming IndieWire was unreliable. There is, as far as I'm aware, nothing wrong with Indiewire. I've since found a second source, the Telegraph, which is reliable per ].
:*The editor ignored WP: BRD when raised, and as an admin they should adhere to policy.
:*The editor states that they are an admin on their page. Assuming this is true, the aggressiveness of their edits, hyper focus on the single area, and use of words like "crap listicle" seemed out of line with what I, personally, would expect from an admin on Misplaced Pages, certainly someone who has been so for nearly two decades. Perhaps the edit summary wasn't the place to have that discussion but, as stated, they weren't adhering to WP: BRD to start a discussion, and in the interim the article needed putting back to the status quo.
:*I find accusations of OWNERSHIP often tend to come when people don't get their way. Which is fine. I have plenty of reversions on the page for people adding unsourced content and there are plenty of changes as well. I find someone removing sourced content and me putting the sourced content back to not ''really'' be something you can fling ownership at.
:*Within the context of the film, Beeks does become the romantic partner of the gorilla, it seemed more appropriate and encylcopedic text than just saying 'rape', and neither source I've added says that either.
:*Anyways, my edit history shows I'm a massive contributor and helper and it's nearly Xmas, and I don't feel like engaging with this any further, good luck Hex. ] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::Of course you don't, having ignored the actual matter of your conduct that I'm raising here. Your comments about the content of the article are irrelevant. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*Hex's position is not wholly supported, although in the entire issue, their toolset is irrelevant. There was no incivility on either part, and an all-out edit war seems to have been averted.{{pb}}Fundamentally the change Hex wanted to make was pure OR; rape may have been intimated—or, as Hex themself admits, implied—but its never overtly stated and is a wholly loaded term. This is the interpretation of an editor, not of secondary sources. If there is a pron=blem with Indywire as a source—currently used in —take it to WP:RSN. If it's disputed that it's a high quality source per WP:FA?, then take it to WT:FAC. Accusations of OWNership are as unhelpful—and as much an aspersion—as accusations of agenda-led editing. In fact, for OWNership, Hex should read the relevant policy: here, it is WP:FAOWN, which not only allows for careful stewardship of featured material, but requires significant changes to the consensus version to be discussed on talk; I don't suppose there's any suggestion that introducing rape—particularly "played for laughs"—wouldn't be a significant addition.{{pb}}Really though, this is an overblown content dispute which should have started with ''one revert'' each, and ended on the talk page. --]'']''] 21:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:"Never overtly stated... 'played for laughs' be a significant addition" - with John Landis, the director. {{talk quote|One of the executives was deeply appalled by a man being sexually molested by a gorilla. And I said you know, it's a joke and it goes by very quickly. But the first preview was very successful and it all went away. ''''}}
*:Feel free to amend the article on that basis. I'm certainly not interested in spending any more time on it. &nbsp;— ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 22:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


===Followup===
*Edit summaries like this show he is trying to ] the article (or at least his contributions), but my guess it is spite more than anything. He can be blunt, but he isn't dumb and he knows he can't just remove his contributions to the articles. The third pillar makes that abundantly clear, as does the CC-BY-SA license he released the contribs under. He and I have bumped heads a few times, so I'm not inclined to get involved with dishing out sanctions myself, but an explanation from him is certainly due. ]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;] 00:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
I just want to say that, now that we've had an ANI thread on the subjeect of Gordon Liddy's feelings about portraying the romantic partner of a gorilla, I can die happy.


While we're on the subject, recites that {{tq|Prior to his departure from the FBI in 1962, Liddy sought admission to various bars.}} I'm curious to know whether this is meant to imply that Liddy had a , and whether this could have had any bearing on the whole gorilla romantic partner situation. ]]
:"Blanking articles" is what vandals do, and I am no vandal. I have three (3) orthochess articles to my name, and any blanking was in error and corrected by me already. I did remove content contributions made by me in those three. On ] and ], I removed my copyedits. (I have my own reasons, they have nothing to do with "proving a point", or "creating disruption", so you have no basis to assign those as intention as you have -- that's false, and springs from bad-faith. What readers of this ANI don't know and can't empathize with, is the way I've been treated by editors like yourself, User:MaxBrowne, User:ChessplayerLev (but that was a long time ago, but he never apologized for the bogus ANI and falsifications made then and attempt to get me blocked or banned, as you are doing), all supported indirectly by defacto project lead User:Quale, who has only disparaging accuses and false blames for me, and compliments to those who would attack and attempt to smear. (It's not very pleasant. There is only so much unfair treatment and bullying incivilities a person can take. That limit was pushed over me recently.) I won't be editing orthochess articles any more, as a result, I won't be able to return to project articles I've touched, to touch them again after having improved my editing skills. (Articles I've copyedited when I began here freak me out, how embarassingly poor my writing editing skills were then, and I've drawn the conclusion my skills will probably continue to increase over time, to the point where edits I think I'm pround of today will make me cringe in embarrassment again in future when I see them. I don't want those edits hanging around as permanent monuments to my mediocre skill as editor at that time. I can't return to ProjChess due to chronic maltreatment and prejudice by Quale to disparage me, and compliment those who would attack me. All of that is true for anyone doing the research. But ANIs are burning stakes, aren't they. (No time for digging the truth. Hang'em high!) I believe this ANI is nothing but the OP's assertion of continued conflict-dominance clashes with me at article ] and article ], and if true, a means to harass and misuse process. (Why does he care? No reason other than that. Oneupmanship. Need to assert superiority over another editor he's been in dispute with.) <p>The issue here is whether an editor has the right or not to remove their own copyedits from an article. If it can be done without disturbing other editors' contributions, then why should it be denied? Edit reverts are the same thing: an editor has changed their mind on leaving her/his edit in the article. So I have changed my mind on ] and ]. I have my reasons, they have been partially explained -- enough to know accusations of valdalism are wholly untrue and bad-faith by an editor who I've had content clashes with. p.s. In each case of clashes with the OP, I've withdrawn from said Talks to avoid drama with him. He's too aggressive and unstoppable IMO, and objective discussion isn't in the cards with him -- only forcing his way, and "winning". I've avoided him therefore, now he comes to my Talk to unfairly accuse, and open this ANI as further contesting with me for whatever motive. I suspect the motive has nothing to do with the health of the encyclopedia, but rather interpersonal conflict he revels in. I'd like someone to tell him to leave me be. I've loved Misplaced Pages and contributing to orthodox chess articles. But the hostility, false blames, attempts to smear and defame, have made the "collaborative editing environment" a joke of inhospitable abusiveness in my perspective. (Just symptomatic of the wider rampant incivilities and lies told and smears conducted against editors generally -- a civility problem WP has no answer for, but has become the encrusted cultural fact here long before I signed up as editor. I simply don't want to be a part of it.) ] (]) 00:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
{{abot}}
:p.s. Dennis Brown's speculation of "ownership" is not correct. I wanted to remove my copyedits, and the example where User:MaxBrowne was excused for doing this at ] by another editor, that he had the right to do so, was basis for me to believe or offer, that I have a right to undo my edits if I want. Nothing more. I have no desire to break any rule.


== User Stationmanagerskidrow removing information on ] page ==
::Myself, I am not the slightest bit convinced of the sincerity of your argument. But putting that aside and responding to your question, there is no rule against reverting your copyedits. However, once you make an edit here, you release your contributions to CC-BY-SA and have no right to deny the restoration of those very same edits. Others clearly feel the content is beneficial to the article. You have no right to remove it without building a consensus for removal. ]] 01:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: My take on this is that ] is always sincere. I'm not saying that he is always right. ] (]) 22:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Well, thanks for that answer. To clarify, I didn't assert at any time I had right to deny restoration. (I didn't know.) I asked an editor to not restore, that I preferred no restoration (and explained why). ] (]) 01:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::::At least twice you told editors to not revert a revert, with one of them telling the editor to go read policy and the other telling the editor they were in violation of policy. and So you were asserting that readding the material was against policy. ]&nbsp;] 01:58, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::That's misleading. I was telling that editor that his revert of my revert was out-of-order. (The edit-warring template itself says to not revert a second time, "even if you believe you are right".) That discussion issue was over BRD versus BRRD, and whether his or my revert was the "B". So that is entirely a different issue than if I do or don't have right to deny (ultimate) restoration. ] (]) 02:11, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::This is classic ] / ] behaviour. When {{user|Kkj11210}}, a mature and polite editor, tried to discuss the blanking of the chess articles, IHTS immediately launched into a bullying based on KJ's youth. I am also fed up with having my name in the process of attacking other editors over incidents that had nothing to do with me. I honestly have tried to have as little as possible to do with this editor lately, but his recent editing has been extremely disruptive. ] (]) 01:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


:::Cesspool stuff, MaxBrowne. (As long as you feel free coming to the ANI cesspool to accuse of narcissism and disingenuousness, according to your need to falsely accuse and smear, do I in turn get to tell you that your behavior is that of an unethical cheat? Underhanded sleaziness? Do you want to throw more insults and buy the house some popcorn? This is your element, isn't it? Cesspool. Mud. Happy as a pig in mud you are!) ] (]) 02:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


] is repeatedly removing information about a recent incident involving a Jewish DJ at ]. They say that it is incorrect information, even though it is sourced. The name also states clearly that this is a company account. Lastly, they have continued this behavior even after being warned on their talk page. ] (]) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::: Please take a break. After a day or two think about whether you want to continue editing here, and imagine how much more pleasant it would be if you and other editors could be nice to each other. ] <sup>]</sup> 02:38, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


:User is now editing using ] ] (]) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::: Well, he's taking a break whether he wanted to or not, as the above came after ; accordingly I've blocked Ihardlythinkso for 24 hours. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 02:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


::This is a content dispute and the article is being actively edited by many different editors. However, no discussion about the disagreements has occurred on the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Well, I don't know about what happened in discussions concerning the Chess articles in the past, but I can only give my views regarding what I've observed in the last few days. From my take on the issue, it looks like user Ihardlythinkso believes that he has been subject to personal attacks in the past and that a number of editors are against his good-faith efforts to improve Chess-related articles. In response, he has been removing his early (and apparently bad-quality) additions while believing that such removals are beneficial to the articles. I didn't accuse him of ] since I was being ], but I do believe that he was acting without awareness of WP:OWN. After the expiration of the block, I think that a discussion attempting to put behind past events, as well as a good dose of ], will be adequate to resolve the conflict. <b>]</b> <sup><b>]</b></sup> 05:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:Ihardlythinkso has been editing for far too long and been embroiled in enough disputes to plead ignorance of ] or do edits like . --] <sup>'']''</sup> 14:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::His responses on his talk page to my trying to explain why he was blocked are disturbing. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 00:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


That article probably should be speedied as an A7 for not containing any assertions of notability; which obscures that Stationmanagerskidrow appears to have been edit warring on it with an undisclosed COI, and presumably was ]ing as , and if so violated 3RR as well. It's probably best for me not to take administrative action here tonight as I won't be around later/tomorrow to deal with any followups, but something should be done here beyond just saying "take it to the talk page." ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Who's conduct I think is "disturbing" is yours, Bushranger. (Turning good-faith Qs of you, instead of according to your responsibilities re ], into some kind of lecturing, shaming, baiting fest.) You obfuscated in every conceivable way and for as long as you could, to dodge answering two simple and clear Qs. (Until I had no choice but to give up.) Now you attempt to take credit for something not due you. I call that dishonest. You really take the cake. But somehow I think you don't care. (Is that because you're admin and see yourself invulnerable? My third Q also went unanswered: What are your recall parameters?) ] (]) 04:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::Your questions regarding the block were answered immediately; whether you overlooked them accidentally or otherwise is something I cannot help. What you call "lecturing, shaming, baiting" was an attempt to point out how your conduct is unacceptable for a Misplaced Pages contributor; again, if you ] I cannot help that. As for recall parameters, they involve something that you have proven incapable of extending: ]. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 08:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC) :The page was longer, but sourced (all but?) soley to the station's site and it's been trimmed down to what it is now. Given the repeated edit-warring by IPs I've semi-protected the page for two days for now. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::] and ] message added . I'm just about to make myself thoroughly ] by seeing what I can do about the ] article. ] (]) 🦘 09:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::That makes no sense. (If my Q about the block was answered immediately, then why didn't you say so when I continued to ask the same Q several times, and complain to you that I'd not received any answer from you? Your RfA Opposes pointed out sarcasm and/or a pattern of your giving "silent responses", in the form of a complaint in that RfA about your behavior. I see now you haven't lifted even a little finger to make any corrective changes in that behavior, based just on what you've said above. Not good.) You have no right to lecture me, attempt to shame, condescend me at my Talk, when I was merely trying to get understanding of your POV for the block. You think you have the right to soapbox and lecture me regarding civil behavior? Boo to that. If we had a forum to discuss, and a moderator to keep our discussion reasonable, I can perhaps name at least a half dozen personal attacks and personal slights you made at my Talk. You have no right to do that to a good-faith editor trying to get basic info from you about the block you executed. That's bullying behavior, and abusive as well. I think you are not fit to be an admin.) About IDHT, sorry but my view is a competing one. It's you that consistently displayed IDHT, not me. And about your good-faith criticisms, just like the block you made, how can I appeal or address, when I don't even know what the hell it is you're talking about and your issues of concern have never been presented to me in any comprehensible or digestible way? In any event, though I'd love to discuss that with you, that will be impossible, because I'd require as mentioned a space to do it in, plus a moderator to regulate your manipulative and obfuscating communications. Another reason it won't happen too, is that the topic that caused the ANI was Mann jess's efforts to warn me from reverting my edits from articles, and when I didn't heed his warning, he immediately opened this ANI for purpose to stop said reverts. Now in manipulative fashion you seem to be re-drawing the essential purpose of this ANI to some never-defined "bad-faith" issue of your concern. Sorry but I was having no luck even getting a square answer from you about the specific reason you blocked me, let alone all of the abuse you have decided amongst yourself that I must suffer from your mouth. Does not compute. Another reason no discussion of your issues will be conducted, not only because of the lack of feature here to provide a space for said discussion, and a moderator to keep orderly, but I'm finding it personally soiling to have any contact or interfaces with you whatever. That said, I wish you would get the fuck off my back and stop your irrational baits. I've already told you I think you're a disgrace as an admin; you aren't changing my opinion by your further lectures and condescensions. What do you hope to gain here? (Get me riled so I say something off-the-cuff whereby you have another crack at blocking me? For a longer duration?) Pathetic. ] (]) 09:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::Just to be clear: you ''got'' a specific answer after you asked what the specific PA you had been blocked for was, where I said "you posted this over an hour after you were warned", with "this" being linked to your specific post that caused the block; and within an hour after . I find it honestly perplexing that you're accusing me of "re-drawing the essential purpose of this ANI" when my comment regarding good faith was in direct answer to your question. I have answered your questions clearly and concisely, only not answering them promptly when the questions were accompanied by (yet another set of) personal attacks against other editors. However, your conduct in response, both on your talk page and here, has been a sea of invective and personal attacks, including but not limited to . From your pattern of commentary it's clear that you immediately ] on my part, and decided to remain in that position regardless of any attempted explanation, instead deciding that any attempts at speaking plainly and clearly about the issue must be abuse, and progressively escalating invective in response to each attempt to explain the situation - and its consequences for you. Accordingly, I regret to say I can provide no further assistiance in trying to help you to remain a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, which is what I have been trying to do all along, and instead will leave you with the same advice I gave another editor below on this page: when you find yourself in a hole, continuing to dig can only have one result. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 12:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


== Insults ==
::::*So, while "classic ] / ] behaviour" is just calling a spade a spade (as claimed on IHTS's talk page), "Cesspool stuff." is a personal attack warranting a block? Is this one of those Misplaced Pages ] things? <small>]</small> 09:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::*"Cesspool stuff" was not a personal attack. However calling somebody "an unethical cheat" who is engaging in "underhanded sleaziness" ''is'', and when the person making those statements has previously been warned that any further personal attacks will result in a block, they get blocked. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 12:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


::::::Come on NE Ent, don't employ tunnel vision over this. There are plenty of diffs provided in this discussion of personal attacks from IHTS, from both before and after the warning, and frankly it's not the first time this guy has sailed close to a ] block ]&nbsp;]⁄] 10:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Basalisk, ever since I criticized the editor who was your nominator at your successful RfA, you have gone out of your way to insert yourself in my wiki-life, and try and trick and trap me into a block. (For example, it is a fact that an admin called me a "mother-fucking asshole" in an Email, and upon knowing that, you went to my Talk and asked for the Email to be revealed at my Talk, knowing full well had I done that, it would have been an outing and an immediate sanction imposed on me.) I can diff several other of your posts where you bogusly threatened me at my Talk, and other editors came to my defense and chased you away. But you're still out to block me, or see me blocked. I call that carrying a long-term grudge, and is unbecoming of admin. You should self-evaluate better, Basalisk. You won't drop your stick. But tell you what, I'm willing to give you something and make you go away. I'm willing to commit to never using a curse word at anyone ever again. Just like Eric, when I've used curse words, they are by choice, not because I'm a lunatic madman not in control of my mouth. The challenge will be, how to get my meaning across as effectively, when curse words are short and succinct, whereas telling someone the same thing in more tea cerimony style is less impacting and "artful". But if it would make you happy, I'll promise to never use another curse word on the WP. Will that make you happy? ) ] (]) 10:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Well to be honest, I don't know anything about dating sites, but I imagine the wiki software doesn't bowdlerise profanities so that they can be included in articles for encyclopaedic purposes. Generally speaking the whole system is designed assuming that the people using it will act like adults. Diff away if it pleases you, though characterising a threat as "bogus" strikes me as a category error. I'm not trying to get you blocked IHTS. That's what you say of everyone who disagrees with you; they're all a bunch of fuckers trying to get you blocked. Just take a break from this and take it on the chin. ]&nbsp;]⁄] 11:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::Well I have some software background, and a table of article names could be exempted in the software to accomodate exceptions, that is all design-requirements stuff easily done. Adults swear Basalisk, more than children, so you got that reversed. Providing diffs isn't my entertainment or desire, Basalisk, telling you I can do that is a signal to you that you shouldn't challenge me on what I asserted, because I can back up what I say. (Your threat was entirely bogus and I can prove it.) I do not say about everyone that they are trying to get me blocked, that's a category overgeneralization, in fact I think I've said that of extremely few editors in reality. (But I know throwing BS overgeneralizations around at the ANI is consistent with the cesspool arguments and mud slung that is the cultural norm here, so you're fitting in real good with that. To me I'd be ashamed, but you and many others just love it. It's so tacky.) I don't know what you're advising me to do ("take a break", "take it on the chin"), Basalisk, I really don't. It was not my idea to open this ANI which Mann jess opened to stop reversions of edits at articles I've edited, turns out he's wrong about it, it was permissable to undo copyedits I've made to articles. I have no idea what you mean, and I don't seek your councel either, you just turned down a good-faith offer to get to leave me alone, I don't know how to make you leave me alone, quit calling me a child, I think you are the immature one, Basalisk. What will make you go away? Did you want to discuss Kevin Gorman here? This dialogue and cesspool tangents are abusive shit, and if you revel in it, you revel in shit. And I just can't fucking respect people who do that, you know. ] (]) 11:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


I'd like to report an incident related to ]. A person under IP already accused me of being "obsessed". Now someone (possibly the same person) . Please also see . I guess we can always agree to disagree with other people, but this is going a bit too far. Thank you. ] (]) 09:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}Back to the issue at hand, {{u|Ihardlythinkso}} as was explained to you above you can not remove content from WP just because you added it, specially claiming things like , , . Incidentally on March 29th you breached ] on at least three articles (], ], ]) and should count yourself lucky you didn't get a long block for that alone. Your lack of ] only adds insult to injury and you should consider stopping while you are ahead. Just drop it, calm down and resume your editing in a few days with a cooler head. Regards. ] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 12:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:Hello, Psychloppos. What action are you seeking to happen here? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:Is there some reason we haven't indefinitely blocked Ihardlythinkso yet? Since 2012, all I've seen him do is jump into one raging dispute after the next and exhibit a level of ] which a deaf person would find difficult to replicate. He seems to believe that NPA doesn't apply to him, as demonstrated above, and gets all up in arms if anyone ''dares'' to question anything he does. The headaches Ihardlythinkso has caused are way out of proportion to any good contributions he makes, and have wasted a tremendous number of man-hours from people who have to intervene and deal with the abuse he hurls at anyone and everyone. ] (]) 18:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::I have no idea which actions are warranted here. Maybe an admin could leave a message to this IP and this registered user and remind them that they should ] ? It would also be nice to remind them about ] and ]. Saying that I am "fuelled by an unhealthy obsession" or questioning my sanity do not seem to respect those guidelines. ] (]) 09:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Normally this starts with warnings on the user's Talk page, but it seems you two have already hashed that out. So unless this account does it again, there's no further action to be taken. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:25, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


=== Request for Review of Neutrality and Repeated Actions ===
== ] at ] ==
{{Atop|This complaint has no merit and does not require administrative intervention.--] (]) 18:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}


Dear admin,
The only edits that {{user|A50000}} has performed this year have been to repeatedly edit war over the labeling of the subject of {{la|Soviet Union}} as either a "]" (the current form) or as a "]" (the form he keeps restoring) . After the March 20 (at least in my timezone) edit, I informed him on his talk page that but he seems to have ignored that and . These have been his only actions on Misplaced Pages in what is essentially a year, and he has been blocked for disrupting articles relating to communism and socialism in the past. He only seems to respond in the edit summaries and has apparently paid no heed to the message that I left him on his user talk page. Based on this current disruption and past disruption, I believe that A50000 should be topic banned from topics relating to communism, broadly construed.—] (]) 04:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to express my concern regarding Psycholoppos, who has repeatedly applied the neutrality dispute tag to content related to Randa Kassis. Despite previous clarifications, these actions suggest a potential bias, which could undermine the objectivity and integrity of the platform.
*This is a single-purpose account, whose purpose I cannot clearly discern (their comments in edit summaries and on talk pages are a bit cryptic, though one gets a clear-enough hint and ) but whose methods are not acceptable. Sources, if they are ever provided, are terrible, and many of the talk page comments (like ) combine borderline trolling with personal attacks. A topic ban is a possibility, but given the soapboxy, unsourced, disruptive, edit-warriorlike edits made by this user, an indefinte block (not infinite, of course) is the best option. I'd love to hear some more opinions, but that's what I think I'm going to do unless I am swayed otherwise. ] (]) 14:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


I kindly request that you review this matter and take appropriate steps to ensure that all users adhere to neutrality standards. If possible, I would also appreciate guidance on how to address such situations constructively in the future.
== Harassment ==


Thank you for your attention to this issue. Please feel free to reach out if further clarification is needed.
I consider I am the victim of harassment by user ]. It has been going on for some time but has become more intrusive recently. It seems to be designed to ridicule and discourage me and it is spoiling my enjoyment of editing on Misplaced Pages.
Hazar ] (]) 17:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:@], whether the NPOV tag is needed or not should first be discussed on the article's talk page. Also, see the large notice at the top of this page: you are required to notify the editor you are reporting. ]&nbsp;] 17:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::The editor is also called Psychloppos, not Psycholoppos. I have notified them for the OP. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 17:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:I wouldn't give a chatbot-written thread the time of day. HS, ]. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 18:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{Abot}}


* Note: I moved this retaliatory post to be a sub-heading of the original issue. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:34, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Here are some examples:
*
*
* My name and reputation gets dragged into a discussion where the subject is something else entirely. User ] was also harassed and stopped editing after this incident.
* I ask for guidance on my errors but do not receive it.


==Nlkyair012 and LLM chatbots ==
The harassment is not confined to Misplaced Pages but also takes place off-wiki at and on general discussion forums such as http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4131 . I do not believe I have ever been anything but polite to AfadsBad and would like to be left alone to edit in peace. ] (]) 08:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
*{{Noping|Nlkyair012}}
: I won't be visiting one of the above external links, but I find the wordpress blog entry that names-and-shames a fellow community member to be beyond the pale. Human beings just don't do that to fellow human beings, but alas it's become so easy to trash people on the internet with so little fear of reprisal <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 09:12, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
This editor has been constantly using AI chatbots to respond and write messages. They are a single purpose account for glorifying the ] caste using unreliable ] era sources, I and several other experienced editors have taken time and effort to respond to their endless queries and ] generated using ChatGPT. They have posted AI generated walls of text on multiple noticeboards such as ] and ] and including here , accusing me of vandalism.


Despite my repeated requests and even a final warning to them (including a request by {{ping|ActivelyDisinterested}}) they are still continuing to do it. Their messages are repeating the same argument again and again and are frankly just ] that bring up fictitious guidelines or misrepresent the existing ones. Several editors have told them that Raj era sources are not reliable yet they continue to ask for more evidence on why that is the case based on AI generated claims of supposed academic value or neutrality. This is getting very disruptive and taking up valuable contributor time to respond to their endless AI responses which take a few seconds to generate. I have alerted them about ] and ], I would appreciate it if someone could enforce a restriction on this user from at minimum caste area. - ] (]) 13:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
'''Comment:''' AfadsBad has had been briefly helpful in two recent questions that I have asked of her, but most of my interaction with her to date has been unduly negative and tediously pedantic. The harassment of Cwmhiraeth is not a singular case, as there has been harassment and negative communications with several other editors, however, AfadsBad seems to have a special obsession with Cwmhiraeth that has verged onto being pathological and inimical to the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages. It has been going on relentlessly for about 7 or 8 months that I've seen it, and a lot of the argument is the same tune from a broken record. The argument wears a little thin--some editors find that there's little meat on the bone for her ranting and usually tune out, but the relentlessness of it contributes to driving users away, making contributing unpleasant, and that is unacceptable. I'm convinced that AfadsBad is the current name of a user who has been blocked a few times previously for similar harassment issues, although I do not have the tools to confirm it. I've mentioned to AfadsBad on her talk page that she should be more willing to collaborate with others, including Cwmhiraeth, but that advice was quickly dismissed. Likewise advice to correct errors in the collaborative spirit has been similarly dismissed. The fact that this harassment has expanded to include lambasting Cwmhiraeth's work offsite, especially at Wikipediocracy in what has the appearance of canvassing or suborning an endorsement for her continued harassment, is troublesome. As far as I see it, AfadsBad should have a one-way interaction ban from contacting Cwmhiraeth which includes the order to stop dragging her name through the mud elsewhere. If AfadsBad in her time as an underemployed scholar wants to continue bullying Cwmhiraeth, or wants to persist to criticize from the sidelines without collaboration or improving the project, she should find another hobby and be shown the door. Sorry, AfadsBad, but when it comes to several users who have said collaborate and play nice, it's time to "put up or shut up".--] (]) 13:33, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
: I consider this a tragic situation. When ] first began editing, she made a real contribution in science-related areas. But the collaborative editing style of Misplaced Pages means that "expert" edits can be undone by others who might not be as knowledgeable. The fact is that a few editors can determine consensus which might not be factually accurate, it's just an edit that editors have, more or less, agreed with. So, she felt her knowledge was unappreciated and she has been complaining about Misplaced Pages's coverage of science subjects since Fall 2013. I don't know the particulars of this editor interaction, just thought I'd fill in some of the backstory. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
: I love the little dig about being an "underemployed scholar". ] (]) 17:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


:Hello @Ratnahastin,
Lol, I am not going to read all this. "Underemployed scholar?" Lol.
:To start with I should admit that I am sorry for all the inconvenience that I may have caused as a result of my actions. It was never my intention to take people’s time or skew the conversation in a certain way. I appreciate the core idea to contribute the thoughts to the Wiki and share it borne in mind the overall rules and policies of this program.
:I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site. Even when I was using AI for the grammar check or, for instance, to elaborate on some point in the text, I saw to my mismanagement that over the process we probably confused the readers and repeated the same information and thoughts, which I would never wish to happen again. From now on I will ensure that in the future the input which I provide to wikipedia fits the Misplaced Pages standard and is more personal. I will also not write walls of text and will not make assertations that do not have substantiated evidence in sources.
:As for subjects that concern the Raj and the sources from this period and the discussions we have had it seems that I have gone too far in demanding clarification for the same thing. That being the case, with the understanding that the consensus will be acknowledged, I shall not be inclined to reopen this discussion unless new substantiated evidence is produced. I don’t want to prolong the conversation or bring any more stress.
:I will strive to learn from my experience to be more productive in my interactions going forward. If there are other limitations or additional rules to which I have to stick to, I will receive them with pleasure.
:In the same respect, let me specially apologize for the inconvenience and thank all of you for bearing with us. That was why I wanted to remind all of us that we can and should keep collectively improving Misplaced Pages as a resource. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::This comment also has a typical LLM feel and contains meaningless statements such as "I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site" and differs substantially from , although GPTzero said this is human input. - ] (]) 13:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::It seems human in that it contains some composition and grammar errors that I don’t think an LLM would produce. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Thanks for the reply sir, I can't explain how frustrated I'm feeling from this morning which this user made me experience <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The time when I messaged Vikram banafar I was casual not formal and second of all your saying doesn't prove anything "and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style" that's a straight up false accusation and utter nonsensical point and 3rd point being that GPTzero stated that this is a human input then that's an human input end of the question. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::No it's really not the end of the story if GPTZero says "likely human". In fact I'd actively discourage people depending on tools like GPTZero in favour of their human senses ] than yet another computer program. And, frankly, what you're hearing from people here is we'd rather your casual, human, flaws-and-all style of writing over ChatGPT output "formal" report templates. They are doing the opposite of what you're looking for and have become disruptive. ] (]) 14:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Man you still wanna do this? @] also says this doesn't seems AI generated to him and he used his actual "Human senses" to lean that way <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Admitting that you have used AI for writing your comments and then saying that you have not used AI is not going to help your case. - ] (]) 14:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You know what I think this is getting to the ] point. Having to tell somebody to have the basic respect of other editors to not subject them to text-walls of chatGPT garbage over and over again is a disruptive distraction from what we should all be doing. ] (]) 14:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::This ain't getting anywhere <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I really don't understand the problem. Cuz I literally also said many where that yes I used AI but for expanding and grammar correction <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::If this combative approach is your "casual" style, perhaps your use of AI and its over the top politeness was an attempt to mask it. In any case, I think you are ] but for caste glorification given your obsession with a certain sub-caste. - ] (]) 14:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::im not obsessed with a certain subcaste but am sure is obsessed with British Raj sources. <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif; color:#FF4500; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold;">]</span> 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::I don't think that's better. ] (]) 15:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::If we just temporarily put aside the AI-generated comments, can Nlkyair012 accept the view of experienced editors on Raj era sources and not push any viewpoint on a particulary caste? Because, to be honest, editors who have done this in the past usually end up indefinitely blocked. There is a low tolderance here for "caste warriors". <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Potential vandal trying to start edit war on the page for Frisch's. ==
Anyway, Cwmhiraeth cannot accurately place information in Misplaced Pages, and her level of knowledge is frequently too low to communicate what is wrong to her, like why C4 and CAM photosynthesis have different names. Every article of hers has made up information, inaccurate information, random pieces of information that give undue weight to what she has added, and plagiarism. Her main sources are usually too old, and she cannot overcome the problems of the disagreements between 1963 taxomony books and advances in modern biochemistry. She does not repair articles when she can understand what is wrong, and continues adding the same errors.
{{atop|1=Page protected, and now this admin is flashing back to his youth going to Frisch's Big Boy in ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
This user keeps using IP addresses in order to revert creditable information about who makes their tartar sauce. Please look into this user. IP Addresses used were 67.80.16.30, 66.117.211.82, and 216.24.107.180. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:Courtesy link ]. ] (]) 17:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Go ahead, check her articles against their sources. "Tropical Southern Ocean," "no cacti have leaves," "CAM and C4 photosynthesis are identical," the sea disaster corrected after it was off the main page.
:<del>This sounds a '''lot''' like the same edit warrer I dealt with on ], down to the false accusations of vandalism, removal of sourced information, and apparent use of proxies (all the IPs geolocate to different places). I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same person.</del> I've asked RFPP to intervene. ] &#124; ] 21:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::NVM, checked MaxMind for geolocation and they all are in the same general area. ] &#124; ] 21:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== ] inaccurate edit summaries ==
Since we are supposed to be writing an encyclopedia here, it is surprising that Misplaced Pages editors and admins would fight to keep 1300 bad science articles on Misplaced Pages with made up science and taxonomies in them and want to continue adding them.


WikiCup Ahoy! And onward Essjay! Or whatever his name was, he has good company with WikiScholar Cwmhiraeth. Her articles are passed and passed to the main page based on the strength of her having written so many, she doesn't claim expertise, but Misplaced Pages editorial superiority over the "underemployed scholar." Expertise exhibited. Taxonomy for Dummies, anyone?


All but 2 of user's edit summaries are "Fixed Typo" when they are in fact partially updating statistical information on the page. Have left multiple messages/warnings on TP, with no response. ] (]) 16:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Correcting bad science is harassment? So what is making up 1300+ main page articles for probably millions of hits, replacement of accurate science in Google search results with fantasy taxonomies, and making a mockery of an encyclopedia?


== Lil Dicky Semi-Protection ==
And Colonel Henry demanding that intrusive liquid metasediments intruding imaginary rocks is a Good Article?
{{atop|1=] is thataway →. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)}}
] was semi-protected back in 2019. Now that five years have passed, could the semi-protection be lifted? ] (]) 16:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


:Ask at ] ] ] 16:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
You don't need experts, just qualified ninth graders.
{{abot}}


== Disruptive behavior from IP ==
--(] (]) 18:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC))
For the past month, {{ip|24.206.65.142}} has been attempting to add misleading information to ], specifically trying to use the unofficial "777-200LRF" designation beyond first mention in the relevant section and passing it off as official (, , , , , , , , , , ). Their behavior died down for a few weeks, but restarted several days ago (, ), including that {{u|Fnlayson}} is "okay with it". They have been asked numerous times on ] to either stop or provide evidence of official use of the designation, but they have failed to do so and have continued their disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


I forgot to mention that this user has used at least two other IPs; {{ip|24.206.75.140}} and {{ip|24.206.65.150}}. 24.206.65.142 is the most recent to cause disruption. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:: AfadsBad, what you just wrote is completely inappropriate as it highly violates ]. However frustrated you might be with a user, do not under any circumstances patronize him/her. ] (]) 18:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Can I retract and call her an "unemployed scholar?" --(] (]) 18:22, 31 March 2014 (UTC))
:::Criticising poor article quality is not a personal attack in my book. ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 20:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::::(non-admin comment) I would just comment that AfadsBad's user page also does appear to break NPA where he has this on it: "But, meanwhile, we have editors, User:Cwmhiraeth (see my talk page, she knows, can't be bothered to stop or correct), making up information to be able to write Did You Know articles on topics that they don't know, so, I guess plagiarizing and sourcing to an anonymous science blog is kinda low on the list of offenses." <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.5em 0.5em 0.6em;"> ''']''' (])</span> 22:08, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::Lol. Pointing out plagiarism and fake science on Misplaced Pages is a personal attack? --(] (]) 23:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC))
:::::This is an encyclopedia project, not a vanity exercise. If someone with a science background says there are major problems with the science in those articles, you should first of all look at that, and find out if it's true. Because if it is, then neither Misplaced Pages nor the public are being served by sweeping it under the rug. There has certainly been of {{u|AfadsBad}}'s critiques of DYK science content being very well founded. Mind you, AN/I probably is hardly the right venue for that discussion. (I'd suggest ] or an ]; and, for the avoidance of doubt, not for AfadsBad, but for the editor whose work is being critiqued.) ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 00:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Note: Jayen466 is associated with AfadsBad (enwikibadscience) through their participation at Wikipediocracy.--] (]) 04:22, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Although I think we don't like each other there, but I may be getting him or her mixed up with someone else. --(] (]) 04:48, 1 April 2014 (UTC))
::::::::We shouldn't go for guilt by association. When Andreas speaks it's usually worth listening to him. The point that we should look carefully at what AfadsBad is arguing is valid. The manner in which they do it, well, let's just say, very diplomatically, that I have problems with it.<p>They have indicted me too in front of the Wikipediocracy inquisition, pointing to (I think it was intended as ammunition for Eric Barbour's "Indict Drmies" mission), saying that apparently I think that "a guy's website (peakbaggers.com) is a reliable source for naming a mountain". They kind of missed the fact that it's not really "a guy's website", and that Wikipedians apparently deem the website notable enough to have a template citing it (Template:Cite peakbagger). So yeah, some of Afadsbad's comments may well be worth taking to heart, but they also have a tendency to shoot from the hip and miss.<p>But ], the problem here is also the manner in which these things are brought up. There are helpful ways and there are shitty ways, and unfortunately that DYK brought things (some of which were not valid, or easily fixed) up in a shitty way. ] (]) 18:15, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::It is just a guy's website, and he has no problems with that. While I use the information for climbing, I am prohibited from using anything on it for rescues because it is considered a hobby website and known to be an unreliable source as to names, locations, and altitudes. "Peakbagger.com is a unprofessional, non-commerical web site that is both a hobby and a place for me to post some of the mountain-related information I have collected over the past 30 years." It's more an ANI comment than an indictment, but, you may consider it what you like.
:::::::::As to bringing things up in a shitty way, check out how I started at the GA for ] and this is the response I got, "Thank you for your comments, AfadsBad. I will consider the points you raise and make alterations where I think they are required, but please do not remove chunks of sourced information as you did with the sentence on cacti, thereby interrupting the flow of the text. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:14, 28 September 2013 (UTC)" The chunks of text I removed was misinformation; it is not true that all cactic don't have leaves, and no sources said that. I removed the misinformation about C4 plants being just like CAM plants, and Cwmhiraeth reverted the removal and claimed that it was true, again. And, in addition, also claimed that this information was sourced. She does not listen to corrections, and the only reason she is paying attention now is because of her claims, and now yours, about my "shitty way of bringing things up." Does any one on Misplaced Pages care that the content is wrong? I tried just stating that it was wrong. I was insulted and scolded as if I was an incompetent child interfering with someone's ] article, and the bad information was returned to the article, again claiming it was sourced. Misplaced Pages editors write essays about how perceived experts are treated on Misplaced Pages, and it really does represent a problem.
:::::::::The article ] was the worst geology writing I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages; even a hoax would have been an improvement. It was promoted to Good Article with ridiculous absurdities, liquid flows of rocks that had never melted moving into rocks that would not exist for another 600 million years. When I pointed out, however badly, how ridiculous the article was, ColonelHenry insisted that my rant was not worth paying attention to because he had correctly followed procedures to promote it to Good Article. The important thing was to get this ridiculous joke of an article out of article space. But, the least followed policy and least important policy on Misplaced Pages appears to be ]. Made up information, if made up by a popular editor, trumps verifiability every time.
:::::::::I think putting an article like that in article space is a really shitty way to treat readers of this encyclopedia. --(] (]) 19:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC))
:::::::::: Get a new schtick, the 8-month old broken record ranting is tiresome, rant rant rant and do nothing but criticize. you could have fixed problems then, but you didn't, you just rant rant rant...it would be comical but stale material repeated endlessly would get you shouted off the stage at a deaf convention in the Catskills. Either put up or shut up...either get in the game and collaborate or stop bitching from the sidelines. Your sanctimonious b.s. gets tedious.--] (]) 19:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::*{{U|AfadsBad}}, my comments were limited to that DYK where, as you saw, I acknowledge that there were issues with the article, but I think that the one I tackled could have been tackled easily by you, in a different tone. If you are indeed exasperated by the quality of this editor's contributions then a more general venue than a DYK nom is appropriate, and an RfC/U is, in the end, the way to go. Torpedoing one DYK (and I think you could have a. been much more specific in your comments and b. been more helpful in the actual editing of the article, beyond just placing a template) doesn't do anything for the quality of the article. I have no opinion on the GA or anything else since I haven't looked at it, and I hope you noted that I did not make any blanket indictment (civil or uncivil) of ''your'' editing here--and I don't subscribe to Colonel Henry's opinion, which I just edit-conflicted with.<p>I dig that you have problems with the project as a whole, but commenting on that DYK in that manner does not address anything, neither project improvement, editor improvement, or article improvement. I'll get back to that DYK and the article, even though you might consider me an amateur who is probably incapable of avoiding scientific atrocities. And if I'm in over my head I'll call on someone to help me. If you, in turn, wish to indict me elsewhere for being a nincompoop, well, that's fine; I'll just consider (perhaps vainly) that you probably had to look real hard to find some dirt on me. Or, and that's an option I prefer, you can help with the article and the nomination--just one more way of not hiding your candle under a bushel. Thank you, ] (]) 19:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::*Which DYK are you talking about? Cwmhiraeth does not usually understand the very specific comments, so I am not going to spend time on them, though I might for the sake of the RFU. She writes a few articles a week, and I check three sentences and find multiple problems, one of her articles is a full time job--it's often difficult to even connect the cited source to the Misplaced Pages article. There is no means in place to fight Randy in Boise syndrome. Misplaced Pages has built up a defense against it. There is an essay on Misplaced Pages claiming that experts don't have to use reliable sources for their articles so they may not understand Misplaced Pages. Of course the sentence is unsourced, and it's also untrue--how did someone think this? I remove nonsense, politely, and Cwmhiraeth reverts and scolds me for doing so. I point out the worst Good Article ever on Misplaced Pages, and I earn an enemy for life (although an amusing one in the level of anger). Why is en.Misplaced Pages so defensive against correcting bad science? When I corrected the misspelled name of a plant family, that had been on en.Misplaced Pages for 7 years and generated 50,000 Google hits on the misspelling, and I needed help from a couple of the foreign language Wikipedias for deletion corrections, there was no problem, no reverting of my corrections, no insulting me, no fighting me that the article had been created and should be kept. Editors and administrators deleted the bad articles, made the necessary moves, corrected the spelling elsewhere within the encyclopedia. You want to shut me up? Then just put in place a method whereby when something is wrong and is not in the cited source it can be corrected. By the way, "nincompoop" or not elsewhere, peakbaggers is not, by en.Misplaced Pages definitions, a reliable source. --(] (]) 19:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC))
::::::::::*For those in the peanut gallery: ]. ] (]) 19:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::Thanks. If you can read the sources at a low level you can probably fix this article; the information that I reviewed that is wrong was not the high level information, but it was also not in the sources. I only looked at a couple of sentences, though. --(] (]) 19:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC))
::::AfadsBad, when mentioning a response of yours violated WP:NPA, it was because you insulted an editor's intelligence and level of knowledge. Completely inappropriate. ] (]) 04:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::Read ] for this quote, "'''Many editors have ... come to believe that good faith is all that is required to be a useful contributor. Sadly, this is not the case at all. ''Competence is required as well.'' A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess.'''"
:::::If you want to support Cwhmiraeth in creating nonsense to put on Misplaced Pages's main page, you might consider going to that mock Misplaced Pages site and putting her nonsense there. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. If someone is incompetent, the right thing to do is to stop them from contributing fake information to the encyclopedia, not shoot the messengers because you are here to social network rather than write an encyclopedia. --(] (]) 05:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC))
::::::I believe my work will stand up to scrutiny and am happy to submit to ]. My objective in making this complaint is to stop the relentless flow of criticism from AfadsBad which is interfering with my enjoyment of editing Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 06:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Then I'd propose you initiate an editor review. This will give {{u|AfadsBad}} an opportunity to present representative diffs and examples of the worst perceived science errors in your work. I would urge AfadsBad to contribute to that review in as patient, matter-of-fact and non-polemical a manner as possible, to ensure that attention remains on content rather than perceived interpersonal issues. With any luck, you'll both get something out of the process. ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 09:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I have already done so. ] (]) 09:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::Regardless of how one views Cwmhiraeth's comptence level, it is NOT an excuse to patronize their intelligence or work per WP:NPA. ] (]) 06:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


:"777-200LRF" is not misleading, some cargo airlines do use that designation. Today I reverted to a previous version that ] was okay with . I feel that ] is going overboard with charges of misinformation and disruptive editing. ] (]) 19:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
== Repeated addition of unsourced info about relatives ==
::It is misleading to remove any mentions of it being unofficial. Boeing has never made a "777-200LRF", no aftermarket conversion has ever been offered under that name, nor has the FAA or any other regulatory agency ever certified such an aircraft. To pass such a designation off as official is by definition misleading and misinformation. Likewise, to continuously do so after you have been told to stop by multiple people and falsely claiming that others support your arguments is by definition disruptive. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::Of note is the fact that this is not the first time the IP has claimed to have Fnlayson's support. ] not to assume support without a specific statement, yet it seems they've also ignored that. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 20:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Its not misinformation as here are the sources which use "777-200LRF", including GE Capital Aviation (the engine supplier for most Boeing 777) and Leeham News (to avoid confusion with the upcoming 777-8F). ] (]) 21:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I have asked you for sources from either Boeing or the FAA, yet you still either refuse to do so or (more likely) cannot because they don't exist. Only Boeing and the FAA can designate factory-built Boeing aircraft. Airlines and misinformed news websites have no authority to do so, and any alternative names they use are purely unofficial and should not have anything more than a single brief mention in the appropriate article section. Your ] to get that after numerous people have told you is disruptive. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 22:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::::None of those are ] suitable for sustaining the edit you want to make. #1 would only support that airline claiming to have that kind of plane. #2 is a model manufacturer, and #3 is a blog. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:Relevant range is {{rangevandal|24.206.64.0/20}}, in case somebody needs it. ] &#124; ] 21:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*Semiprotected ] for two days. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Rude and unfestive language in my talk page ==
Ongoing problems with ] (previously known as ) who has a history of promotional editing and is repeatedly adding unsourced information to ]. In particular he is repeatedly adding information about his (dead) relatives (i.e. ]) , despite it being repeatedly removed by myself and other editors. I stumbled across ], found the information to be unsourced and very suspect and have attempted to improve it. Bcd3174 seems unwilling to accept that the information there needs to (at least) be verifiable. They have been warned on a number of occasions on their Talk page and the issues have been repeatedly explained on the article's Talk page but their behaviour hasn't subsequently changed at all. It's perplexing! ] (]) 10:19, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


:Seconding Sionk's concerns; the editor is essentially a single purpose account editing articles related to Charles Corm, and despite many requests to read and adhere to ] and ], and advice concerning original research in articles, they don't seem to quite understand that it is not ok to add unsourced information. Maybe more advice and pointers from other editors who have been uninvolved with them before could make them understand what the issue is. --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 13:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


--Bcd3174 19:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)'''This is BS! I spent ages researching and editing the article of "Richest Lebanese in the world". I have spent ages researching who are really the richest Lebanese in the world. It so happens that my GRANDFATHER was one (if not THE one!) of the richest men in Lebanon. After passing away, his wealth was divided among his 2 sons (my father and uncle). Ask anybody Lebanese about the Corm family and they will tell you that we are billionaires (not that I care that much at all; there are much more important things in life than money; this article just happens to cover THAT topic). So what?! Am I supposed to be ashamed to have a rich family? Am I supposed to apologize to Sionk and Bonadea who know NOTHING about Lebanese wealth (actually integrating in the list the names of people who don't even exist! I.e. Maya Papaya and co...)?! Maybe they just can't reconcile the fact that I am an honest and meticulous editor but also the son of a billionaire?! To show my good faith, I sent them the following message a few days ago:
'''
''@Bonadea and Sionk. As I messaged you both, can we please bury the hatchet. We are NOT enemies and I harbor no other intention than making this list as ACCURATE as possible (just like you)! That means that I apologize for past coarse language. It was only a reaction to having all my hard work deleted under really lame arguments (with all due respect). And you should appreciate the (educated) work I put into this page. I happen to know Lebanese wealth inside out. It doesn't work according to Forbes lists or other BS lists that are known to be notoriously incomplete (when not downright WRONG). There are AT LEAST 5 Lebanese billionaires living in Africa that are not included in Forbes and co. nor the list I compiled. Why? Because these guys' fortune, well above 1 billion USD, is unknown. It could be 1, it could be 10. Their assets are "undercover". Also, and contrary to you Anglo-Saxon thinking, it is common practice in the Middle East to talk about FAMILIES. Forbes MENA (the regional version of Forbes) recently released its list of "RICHEST" and it was a list of... MENA's RICHEST FAMILIES!!! That's the way it works around here: FAMILY WEALTH! Because nobody, including Forbes (!) and hence I trust you will agree neither of you too, can or will ever be able to breakdown the wealth of individual family members. Again, this is how it works around here and if even FORBES approaches the "issue" that way, I trust that you guys will have the humbleness to respect that approach too. Getting to Corm, he was the exclusive agent of Ford Motor Cars for the entire Middle East. Everybody in Lebanon knows the Corms are worth billions. But they are a discreet family who have no interest in being in Forbes (which in turn has no way of measuring their fortune hence does not list them). Now either you want to make this page ACCURATE AND FAIR, either you want to just propagate s* intelligence and information, creating a snowball effect that just reinforces Forbes and co. s* lists. Also Bonadea and with all due respect, your date of death logic is BS! Either you consider a man dead and hence don't include him or his family in the list either you do (again, please read above my part on FAMILY WEALTH). But I don't think it is your prerogative to decide what length of death is acceptable or not! If you insist in removing Corm, then you MUST remove Safra and Hayek. If you don't, you have no consistency. And consistency is the key to credibility. And credibility is EXACTLY what Misplaced Pages lacks. So if your plan is to KILL Misplaced Pages (whose death I am convinced is around the corner as nobody I know trusts a word coming from Misplaced Pages, they just use it as a quick info "fix" on subjects of little importance to them), continue applying DOUBLE STANDARDS the way you do. I just HATE double standards. They are just about the biggest impediments to OBJECTIVE reporting. Over and out...
'''''
'''Their reaction to this kind message and invitation to COOPERATE with me was to simply REPORT me on this page! Again, I am NOT going to apologize or retract because I am working on a list where one of the listees happens to be my grandfather! And if you force me to do so, you (I don't even know who I am talking to) would be going AGAINST every single principle Misplaced Pages stands for! Over and out...''''''


My esteemed editor collegue ] just left on my talk page, on Christmas Day no less. Not really in the spirit of the season, I'd say. Considering that he was sagaciously advising me on the importance of tact and etiquette in the very same thread, he should be held to the same standard. ] (]) 17:54, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:It is really very simple. There is a single standard: All information must be ]. Information that is not sourced can be challenged. When unsourced information is challenged, the ] rests on the person who wants to add the information. Once again: the fact that "everybody in " knows something is not a source. Nobody is attacking you, nobody is asking for an apology from you. We are only asking for sources.
:{{u|Vector legacy (2010)}} and {{u|Marcus Markup}}, you both should stop that childish behavior and disengage from one another. ] (]) 18:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:In addition, the reason sionk added this report here was not your message (which I would not have described as "kind", and which ascribed incorrect characteristics to me - I am not Anglo-Saxon) but the fact that you have persisted in restoring your ancestor to the page, without waiting for consensus on the talk page, '''and without reliable sources'''. You have been cut a lot of slack, and treated with a lot of courtesy despite not always being quite civil yourself , (I'm not sure whether your characterisation of me as "nothing but rude, aggressive and conceited towards " refers to , , or ). --'']'' <small>] ]</small> 06:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


== User:Ryancasey93 ==
--Bcd3174 07:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)If I was ever rude, I truly APOLOGIZE. It was never my intention. Please read my comments above. I extend to you all a hand of PEACE so that we collaborate instead of fighting. I have started my hunt for sources for this article. Not ONLY for my grandfather but for ALL the people on that list. Just give me some time and help out IF you want to make this page relevant and by extension Misplaced Pages a trusted source of information. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{atop|1=31-hour block. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)}}
*{{userlinks|Ryancasey93}}
Over at ], a user by the name of {{u|Ryancasey93}} requested that their YouTube channel be cited in a passage about them () that was added by {{u|TheLennyGriffinFan1994}} (). The talk page discussion was removed by {{u|AntiDionysius}} as being promotional in nature. Ryancasey93 then decided to ] to cite their channel, which was declined by {{u|LizardJr8}}, who then proceeded to remove the passage as being unsourced.


I then brought up concerns with ] and ] with Ryancasey93, who then proceeded to respond in a needlessly confrontational and hostile manner, and pinging me and LizardJr8. Ryancasey93 then proceeded to where they said we were "very rude and belittling" to them, told us they sent an email complaint against us, called us "the most cynical, dismissive, greedy, narcissistic, and ungrateful people I ever met in my entire life", accused us of discriminating against Autistic people (I am autistic myself, for the record), and called us "assholes".
== Raised a community ban proposal for Az-507 at AN ==


Simply put, I feel as if Ryancasey93 does not have the emotional stability required to contribute to Misplaced Pages, having violated ], ], and ], and a block may be needed. ]<sup>(])</sup> 19:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
As {{user|Az-507}} has been brought here several times recently I thought it appropriate to mention ]. ] (]) 11:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


:I just logged on while digesting turkey, and was alerted of the pings and this report. I don't really appreciate the messages from the user (I'm on the spectrum too, FWIW) but I think @] gave a good response, highlighting the need for secondary reliable sources. I should have done that better when I removed the unsourced information. I would like to see if there is any further activity from the user before getting into a block discussion. ] (]) 21:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
== Offensive IP ==
::Looks like they've been blocked for 31 hours by {{u|Cullen328}}. ]<sup>(])</sup> 23:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
{{archive top|1=Block requested, block delivered. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 21:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)}}
:::Yes, that last comment was unacceptable in several ways. ] (]) 00:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Please review the editing of {{IP|74.62.92.20}}. Offensive edit summaries that need hiding (again) and attacks on editors. Blocked by {{U|Dougweller}} for the same stuff back in January. Thanks, ] (]) 11:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== User:24.187.28.171 ==
Block the IP, I don't give a shit. ] (]) 12:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
{{atop

:Ask, and thou shalt receive. (3 months, if anyone cares, given the last was a month, with no apparent conflict?) ]<font color="FF8800">]</font> 12:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC) | result = Blocked for 3 months for edit warring. ] (]/]) 23:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
}}

*{{userlinks|24.187.28.171}}
::This has been an editor that has had extensive problems with multiple editors. He comes back everynow and again and leaves me fanmail. He jumps Ip's so he'll be back eventually maybe even before the block expires but the behaviors doin't change so it won't matter they will end up blocked either way. ] (]) 14:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
IP has been blocked before for previous infractions. Now, they continue to perform persistent disruptive edits contradicting the Manual of Style, either by deliberately introducing contradictions or undoing edits that resolve the issue. The user has also violated ] at ], though that remains unresolved for some reason. The IP has done all of this despite a backlog of warnings dating back to 2023. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 22:48, 25 December 2024 (UTC)</small>
{{archive bottom}}
:@]: could you please provide specific diffs? ] (]/]) 23:23, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}
== Are blogs allowed? ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">{{quote box2
| title =
| title_bg = #999
| title_fnt = white
| quote = Wrong venue for something that doesn't require administrative actions. Please discuss at the article's talk page first. If that doesn't result in consensus you may want to ask at the ]. ] (]) 13:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
| width = 30%|halign=left}}
:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top-->
----
Is this a case where such a blog would be allowed? ] (]) 12:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:Discuss this on the article's talk page or ] and not ].—] (]) 12:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:Yep, this isn't really a question for ANI. Just so it looks like we're not passing the buck, though, at a quick glance Youtube is virtually never an acceptable reliable source. ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 13:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
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:''The discussion above is closed. <span style="color: #F00;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive bottom --></div>

== {{user|Necrothesp}} ==
{{archive top|1=ANI is the point of last resort, not the first. A {{tl|trout}} to the OP for making it the first resort, and also for failing to notify the subject as is ''required of any posting at ANI''. ] over the titles of shortcuts aside, this isn't a concern, and if it is it needs to be discussed - substantially - first, elsewhere. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 21:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)}}
{{User|Necrothesp}} is systematically renaming all baronets from their titles as Sir John Smith, xth Baronet to John Smith, apparently without achieving conesnsus first. I find this extremely petty action, made on an entirely spurious basis. ] (]) 15:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:Have you tried to discuss this with Necrothesp? Probably not since you didn't even notify them of this thread. ] (]) 15:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

:: Did {{User|Necrothesp}} get consensus before making mass changes? Probably not since I have not seen them discussed. ] (]) 15:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Controversial edits should always be discussed first before taking the issue to this board. And that means if you object to these mass moves you should have tried to convince Necrothesp to undo them. I can see how you may view these moves as disruptive but that doesn't justify reporting another editor here without getting into contact with them first. As to the page moves, the applicable ] state that prefixes like "Sir" should not be included in the article title and per ] we don't need disambiguations for names of persons when there is only one article with that name. So I can see where Necrothesp is coming from. But on the other hand, the ordinal and peerage like "]" are supposed to be included in the page name per the naming conventions for nobility.
:::What does bother me a little though is the speed of Necrothesp's moves. I'm not saying they're automated but 2 page moves per minute is quite an output. That said, I would like to see a response from Necrothesp who has now stopped moving pages. ] (]) 16:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Nothing controversial or automated here. Just me implementing something (]) that should have been implemented on these articles long ago. These are peers, not baronets, and the same conventions do not apply as clearly stated in the naming convention. -- 16:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
We already have a consensus. Maybe if he bothers to actually read the longstanding naming convention (] #3) before commenting, ] may care to apologise for his accusations of "petty" and "spurious". I wait with baited breath. Incidentally, I didn't make "mass changes". I count fourteen! This seems to be a simple case of one editor not liking a naming convention and objecting when another editor implements it. It's not like it's a new convention - it's been there for years. -- ] (]) 16:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

: There are big problems with ] - the first being that baronets aren't peers. The changes are clearly petty, spurious and entirely unnecessary. I do not apologise for speaking the truth. The trouble is that countering a ] mentality with acquiescence means that those with pathetic petty agendas will inevitably succeed if those who are unimpressed by such actions do not stand up to them. ] (]) 16:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::Yup, he really needs to apologise now. This aggressive, accusatory attitude against an editor following the naming conventions (which he is clearly fully aware of, but doesn't agree with) is uncalled for and thoroughly unhelpful. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with ]. It is used by all of us who regularly edit British biographical articles, as a glance at ] will soon show. The convention quite clearly states that the style for baronets is only to be used when disambiguation is necessary. The fact that baronets are not peers is a complete red herring. We know that. The naming convention doesn't say they are. NCPEER is merely a shortcut. What ] has quite clearly done is disagreed with the naming convention and instead of discussing it in the appropriate place or bringing it up on my talkpage (I would have course have pointed him towards the naming convention), he has brought it here to accuse me in the hope that he will get support from other editors unaware of the naming convention, its longevity, and the fact that it is complied with and supported by other editors who work in this field. When rumbled he has simply upped his aggression level and made further accusations. The whole thing leaves a sour taste, quite frankly. -- ] (]) 17:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

As Necrothesp says, "NCPEER" is just a convenient shortcut; the naming convention (that "Sir" and "nth Baronet" should only be used when necessary for disambiguation) has been stable since August 2005, despite an unpleasant conflict centered, in part, around baronets. The change was conceived and affirmed by editors active in peerage and baronetage articles, and it hasn't been particularly controversial since. Barney, bringing this straight to AN/I was absolutely wrong: this should have been discussed at Necrothesp's talk page, the talk page for NCPEER, or ] before coming here. I would caution anyone making these moves (to the less complex page title) to make sure the baronet is the ''only'' notable person with that name; once the page has been moved, if someone edits the redirect, the move can't be reversed without administrator intervention. (This was being used tactically in the conflict I mentioned.) For unusual names like "Lowthian Bell", that's a fairly safe assumption, but high-speed renamings do tend to alarm people even if they are within policy. Anyway, the NCPEER guidelines are applicable and of long standing and Necrothesp is, as far as I can tell, complying with them. If you have a problem with those guidelines, take it to the talk page there; this is not an appropriate place for them. I think we're done here. ] (]) 18:51, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== ] tagging articles for problems that do not exist ==

A while ago I began to notice {{user|IPadPerson}} tagging articles for problems that don't exist. For example: , , . I left them a talk page note .

After that note, it continued: , , , , , , , , , , , , , .

I asked them once again to knock it off () and like many other attempts at contacting them, they ignored the message and continued on: , , , , , .

IPadPerson has had many incivility problems in the past, surrounded by issues of failing to respond to any user outside of one or two occasions (including when they were blocked for their incivility and requested an immediate unblock, all of a sudden having a ton to say). So it comes as no surprise to me that they've ignored my first two warnings. But this behavior of tagging articles for problems that aren't obvious or don't exist isn't beneficial to the project whatsoever. ''']&nbsp;•&nbsp;]'''</span> 17:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:Seems like textbook drive-by tagging, which I agree can be annoying. ] (]) 17:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::While IPadPerson seems to have improved on civility, the tags placed don't seem to have been given much thought. Is it just me, or did the block perhaps prompt responses to other users on talk page? ] (]) 17:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Side comment: Most tagging is drive-by tagging in the sense that it is the height of laziness on the part of the editor leaving a tag. If there is a problem they have noticed, they should take action to FIX or at least IDENTIFY the problem. Most tags do not articulate what the problem is, and the tags are left as a substitute for actual work that can help solve the problem. Note: the worst offenders are some of the highest edit count "leaders" of wikipedia--the ones who make multiple edits per minute and have no time to actually consider what they are doing with their edits. Really, a tag is a one-person complaint about an article, sometimes on articles that have thousands of views (meaning none of their predecessors have seen fit to change anything about the article). Furthermore, the public, header level announcement that there is a problem with this article, cumulatively serves to harm the overall look of credibility of Misplaced Pages. I equate tagging to vandalism on my talk page.

Often, after a tag has been left on an article, other editors use it as an excuse to remove legitimate, valuable content, doing greater damage to Misplaced Pages's archive of knowledge.

So in regard to this editor, yes their edits are junk, but virtually all taggers leave junk. The entire concept should be scrapped. ] (]) 17:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::As much as I don't think the tags IPadPerson placed were needed, it doesn't seem appropriate to call someone's edits "junk". Regarding "laziness", I can see how tagging articles can be seen as lazy, but sometimes they are done when the user doesn't in that moment have the time to fix the issue himself/herself. For example, placing a "needs additional citations" tag can help while the editor searches for sources. ] (]) 18:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

To further show the user's unwillingness to cooperate, or even discuss... they've removed my previous warnings and the ANI notice () ''']&nbsp;•&nbsp;]'''</span> 18:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:While removing a message from one's own talk page is technically a sign indicating the user acknowledges it, in IPadPerson's case it would've been much more beneficial to at least reply first. ] (]) 19:01, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
::The least that {{noping|IPadPerson}} can do is recognize that there is a problem with their edits. ] (]) 19:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Not sure if more of a "I don't understand what my faults are" or a "I don't have any faults- you're just making this up" case..... ] (]) 07:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== HOBOPOCC keeps deleting Wikpedia talkpage warnings of disruptive editing messages on his talkpage ==

{{Vandal|HOBOPOCC}} . I assume in an attempt to with wash his disruptive editing past. — ''']'''&nbsp;•&nbsp;] 17:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

:There is no requirement for a user to keep warning notifications on their talk page. They are not active blocks or sanctions. ] ] (]) 17:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
How are we to keep track of a patron of disruptive editing of a user then? — ''']'''&nbsp;•&nbsp;] 17:53, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

:Memory. History. Block log. Editing restrictions log. ANI archives. ] (]) 17:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

::The talk page history contains a record of past warnings. Further, when a user removes a warning from their talk page, that's seen as a de facto acknowledgment of the warning. —''']''' (]) 18:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
I see; thanks for the info ] & ]! In future I will include in the "Subject/headline" of a talkpage message the word "Warning of disruptive editing" to make it easier to keep track of a patron of disruptive editing of a user. — ''']'''&nbsp;•&nbsp;] 18:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
*This article is one of the worst kicks in the balls of ] since that whole "Occupy" fiasco--that is, the slew of articles detailing every single citizen and their dog who showed up to protest something. It should be deleted but hey, "it's in the news", no matter what the quality of the source is that says that 100 people showed up in Kherson or Zaporizhia. We can't wait until something becomes actual established knowledge--including photos, videos, and guesswork-maps that make our project into just another citizen activism site. ] (]) 19:54, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Three-admin panel requested for closure of ], when the discussion has run. ==

Greetings! A proposal has been made at ] to change the title of the article, ] to ]. Such a move request has been made in the past, and has frequently engendered very spirited discussion. The last time such a discussion went for the full discussion period, it was closed contentiously by a non-admin, leading to an equally contentious move review. In order to head off any shenanigans, I would like to request that a panel of three completely neutral and uninvolved admins (i.e. not having participated in the conduct or closing of any of the previous discussions) convene to monitor this discussion, make sure that it does not veer off-topic, and close it either at the end of seven days (if no extension is sought) or at the end of fourteen days (if an extension is sought). Cheers! ] ] 18:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:I'd be willing to close it either by myself or as part of a 3-admin panel. I have no particular interest in the article, other than being a voting-eligible US citizen.--v/r - ]] 20:29, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Great, thanks - do you want to see if you can find the other two, or wait for more volunteers? ] ] 20:31, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::The RM just opened today so there is no hurry. We can wait to see who volunteers.--v/r - ]] 20:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:I'd feel comfortable being a member of the 3-admin closing panel. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 22:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Thanks. One to go. The discussion seems to be quite civil this time around, and I hope it will stay that way, but it is worth keeping an eye on just in case. Cheers! ] ] 22:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Ongoing personal attacks by ] ==

Despite by blocked for 48 hours for unspecified reasons () by ], ] continues to make personal attacks. The last month and a half has seen an incredible wave of personal attacks, many against myself. Other more experienced editors advised me not to do anything since it would be a waste to time, so I sat back and observed the Skookum1's attacks continue unabated. Finally I started issuing warnings on his talk page (, , , and , in hopes of grabbing the attention of an administrator, but so far in vain. People have commented that Skookum1 makes valuable contributions; however, the other editors and I also make valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages for years now and have done so without violating basic Misplaced Pages Pillars.

For a sampling of personal attacks ("Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" also constitutes a personal attack):
* Against myself: "she's NOT a good editor, she's behaving in a rogue manner, I'll take it up elsewhere, I guess I was just pointing out to you that somebody's sleeping dog didn't really want to stay lying down...."
* Against myself: "You don't get how half-informed you are about the FOO people problem ... Your logic throughout all of this has been half-informed ... It's ironic to me that you, as someone on an indigenous high horse often enough, as with how you came at me over the Nevada categories, would in this case wind up pandering to the name-changes brought on by colonialist attitudes/chauvnism towards native nomenclatures.....
* Against myself: "Well, if I didn't have to hear the same obstinate, half-informed ideas brought over time and again ... All the things she's bringing forward right now I told her about already, she dismissed them, told me what I thought didn't matter, and that she's entitled to her opinion. What she's really saying is she's determined to underscore her ignorance and has no intentions of learning about the subject matter she's screwing with"
* Against myself: "you violently and bitterly resisted my attempt to make sense out of the Nevada categories ... start throwing apples and oranges around and pointing at other name problems to justify your rashness and obstinacy defending this ''bad'' choice of category name which you made without having a clue what you're talking about."
* Against myself: "pretending yourself to be such an authority on it that youy think your "opinion" (=ignorance of the topic) matters, and that you have a "right" to impose it on others??"
* Against myself (accusation w/o proof): "... considering her timing of this re other convos in IPNA and elsewhere, and her territorial ]ership of Nevada tribe/reservation categories where she accused me of being a vandal for trying to make sense of that category structure to bring it in line with IPNA standards ... to me it seems like she jumped on top of it as a provocation or a "throw the skookum a bone" time-waster like Kwami likes to do.... Hard to do, to accept good faith, when someone who has accused you in no slight terms in the past in very pointed NPA terms (impugning I'm a white racist or supermacist, calling me a vandal for trying to fix glaring miscategorization problems) is so aggressively WRONG in terms of the suggestions and reasons she brings forward, no matter how often I explain the facts to her, she reiterates her lack of correct information as if it were valid and mine was only "opinion", and wrong in her actions of ignoring the CfD and acting on her own without recourse to proper process."

...these go on and on, and I can provide more diffs if need, but to move on to more recent attacks:

* Against ] and myself: "He was at the time of most if not all, hence the overwrite power he had, which maunus and Uysvdi still have despite their contrarian and hostile and incivil behaviour."
* Against ] and myself: "Your attitude has been hostile and contrarian, and you yourself attacked me subtextually during that little game you played with the Shoshone categories, your position ''there'' also being against guidelines for category use and harmonizing names with category titles. Kwami's out of line, and this ain't the first time (his little game with the ] title these last two days was way out of line, and geez I thought ''you'' of all people in the cabal, being indigenous yourself, would seed the point of respecting modern name-choices made by those peoples..... but as with Squamish, which you waded into without a clue about the implications, you apparently prefer to stick with teh colonialists' names for peoples you don't even know. EAt apples much? And this little NPA message of yours is horseshit, given your own behaviour towards me....... Kwami defends racist terms and regularly espouses anti-native attitudes, and yet there you were lecturing ''me'' about not being indigenously aware...... ACK what a waste of time the lot of you are; ramming through your NCL pet project, applying it helter skelter without any thought of consistency, or the long-standin convention about standalone names being dismissive about native endonyms, and about Canadian English. That you are an admin is a joke." and
* Against ]: "YOUR POV is what the problem is here, and accusing me of that is a farce. I'm the one that's being regularly attacked and criticized, and if I do so much as criticize a policy or point to someone's erroneous or ill-considered actions, I get an NPA warning from someone who's attacked me herself. Your problem Kwami is you can't admit you're wrong and that you have a complete disdain for the knowledge of the places and people and linguistic idiom (aka Canadian English usages) that's really obnoxious and you show it time and time again"
* Against ]: "If all you can so is soft-pedal insults at the nominator and not address the 'support' votes from others, it's clear that your opposition is NOT based in guidelines but in personal contempt for me ... Your vote should be disqualified on those grounds ... Stop the axegrinding and discuss the issues ... it's you who declines to discuss this, and are making me thet issue, not the topic at hand, and are knee-jerk voting on a very personal and now targeted basis."
* Against ]: "Please contain your prejudices ... The subtext of bigotry towards native peoples and their names in all such RMs is both tiresome and disturbing ..."
* Against ]: "You bleated that UNDAB and NCET haven't faced RfCs; I think it's high time that NCL got a once-over by more than your little crew of linguistics groupies."

If anyone wants more examples, I can furnish more.

Skookum1 has frequently accused me of attacking him, but when asked to find concrete proof, could not (). The conversation where he incorrectly believes I accused him of racism is located at ] and ]. He accused me of calling his edits to Nevada tribes' categories as "vandalism"; however, I never did. The edit summaries of the edits in question can be found: and ; they involved removing reservation cats from redirects.

Skookum1 has many conspiracy theories against me, which, frankly, I find disturbing. In truth, I try to avoid him as much as possible in my editing, this AN/I being a major exception. In real life, I work with numerous Native artists from British Columbia, but don't bother writing about them on Misplaced Pages in the attempt to avoid Skookum1.

This recent barrage of personal attacks has created a toxic environment that does not serve any of us well. Ignoring the problem hasn't helped, and issuing warnings on Skookum1's talk page hasn't achieved anything. These personal attacks need to stop. If there *is* a policy that allows a user to attack anyone they want without any recourse, I would like to hear it. -] (]) 22:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

*'''Comment''' I've had many run-ins with Skookum, though I haven't always been polite either. If I disagree with him on a matter of procedure (for example, when Skookum dislikes the names of articles that follow our naming guidelines, I think it's best to discuss changing the guidelines, rather than making scores of move requests and arguing each of them independently as an exception to the guidelines), then he accuses me of racism, perversion, conspiracy, or other acts of bad faith. I've had good experiences with him too, where he's been reasonable and helpful, but only when (a) I agreed with him, or (b) I was seeking his advice and had no opinion of my own. Skookum has made valuable edits, but not IMO valuable enough to overlook his socially inappropriate behaviour. — ] (]) 22:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

* My reasons for blocking are set out on my talk page rather than Skookum1's, ]. I have tried to coach this editor, but have not succeeded. Although I chose not to take further enforcement action in his case, I have been warning him (see his talk page) that action is bound to come if he does not change his behaviour, but sadly this has not changed. – ] '''<font color="#FF0000">]</font>'''] 22:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
**My encounter with Skookum1 was at ]. I went into it neutral but speaking quite frankly I came away from it with the impression he's here to ], not to ]. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 00:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

*This ANI and the threats of it I view as part of an ongoing harassment of attack and obstructionism by Usyvdi on partisan and personal grounds and constitutes an abuse of power; Bushranger made me as a person the target of discussion in that CfD, rather than address the issues or even read my statements, despite support from other editors who were in agreement with me on that issue. Usyvdi has partisan motivations here and is abusing her power as an admin on behalf of that agenda, and has issued NPA warnings one-sidedly while ignoring those made against me by herself, Kwami, JorisV, Maunus and others, and also tolerating an obvious campaign of oppositionism in various RMs and other discussions. Her own condescensions and derisions toward me are a matter of record and constitute harassment on behalf a particular agenda and some kind of personal resentment that seem to have begun quite a while ago; this is all highly unCIVIL and AGF and her own NPAs against me put her assault on me in a highly hypocritical context. Others respect me, and actually are capable of reading my posts instead of complaining that don't have time or ability to read so-called "walls of text"; many patronizing comments by her and her colleagues at NCL are staple fare in various RMs, and her refusal to discuss her inconsistency on various matters pertaining to guidelines and other matters. This is a nuisance an ANI and I believe it is ''her'' conduct, not mine, that should be on the table and her adminship reviewed - and revoked.

She denies saying things to me which I know she said and must be hidden in page histories somewhere, which I will take the time to dig out because of this ANI; she has also deleted my attempt to broach an important issue where she is in conflict with her own actions, and added the extremely NPA edit comment "Get a life!". she has refused discussion and met important questions with silence. The one-sided nature of her conflated NPA accounts completely belies the ongoing derision and opposition and insults of herself and others who are defenders of the extremely flawed guideline ].

This is all a waste of time and just more harassment, and I believe part of a joint campaign to drive me by that particular faction to drive me from Misplaced Pages or have me blocked so as to muzzle my critiques of their actions and faulty guidelines and questionable behaviour. It is completely one-sided and highly partisan in nature and highly immature overall; playing wiki-cop when she herself is no one to talk is, quite frankly, a bore. I have been doing useful work while putting up with harassment, evasion, derision and more; this ANI is just more procedural obstructionism and hostility towards my editing activities and is highly questionable in the extreme. This ANI should be about her, and her erstwhile allies against me, not about me. I have work to do and that life to lead that she told me to go get; Misplaced Pages is becoming more and more about procedure and protocol that honest work on articles and seems increasingly smaller and smaller pool full of narrower and narrower minds invested with more and more power....and pompous behaviour. Yes, I am voluble but I am articulate and respected by many editors despite all the derision and denunciation.

This ANI is a nuisance ANI and partisan harassment and IMO nothing more; conflations of critiques of actions and guidelines are being misportrayed as NPA when much more explicit and vicious personality attacks and sundry derisions go unaddresszed, and are a tiresome bore at countless RMs and also that CfD that Bushranger interloped on by attacking me for my writing style without addressing content and support votes; that CfD and its predecessor and t he RMs preceding it all need revisiting, perhaps mediation or Arbcom or wherever, and NCL needs an RfC to address its many inadequacies. The use of adminship on behalf of a partisan alliance hostile towards me is highly questionable and should be being reviewed by all the adminship, not just the claque of those who recite TLDR as it it were a guideline and not an excuse to not listen or address important issues and incorrect claims which cannot be put in terse form.

The presumptuous behaviour and comments towards me by her and other admins who presume to speak for "the community" or as "we", as JorisV has done and others allied to Uysvdi is also a matter of record, as are incantations of guidelines without reference to the wider context of the rest of guidelines; the use of "fanatic" is an apt discussion of the ] behaviour of those concerned, and was conflated into NPA by hypersensitivity and an obvious ''laager'' mentality by those who maintain that NCL has primacy over all other guidelines. Yet despite even more virulent NPAs against me, ''I am the one being attacked'' and now officially harassed....I will post a link or two later to longer replies and comments about the decay in commonsense and civility at Misplaced Pages in recent times, including a reply to her on her pre-ANI warning to me last night, which I withheld for review until today.] (]) 04:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

* I am not an administrator. I ignored your personal attacks for weeks; however, they did not abate, so I gave giving you warnings for your personal attacks (which I would have no cause to do, if you would simply stop creating personal attacks). An AN/i is not a personal attack; having a different opinion is not a personal attack. -] (]) 05:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
**how bizarre but also typical of you, in all your conflations of my points about issues and guidelines and ongoing conduct and often rank dishonesty into alleged NPA status. "having a different opinion is not a personal attack" is completely contrary to how you have been treating my "different opinions" (which are 90% of the time or more directly about citable facts, other precedents and various guidelines other than the one being tub-thumped repetitively and out of context; I present facts, you claim they are only opinion while continuing to defend ORIGINALRESEARCH in NCL and also in NCET, and you deride my presentation of this with open derision and uncivil commentary on a regular basis, though not as harshly as the many AGFs and NPAs from your NCL colleagues which you also turn a blind eye to.

I am glad you are not an admin; I have seen your overwrite redirects and other things which led me to believe that; your pompousness and back-handed attitude towards my attempts to discuss guidelines and such matters as the "FOO people" problem and category redirects has been noxious and insulting. Your ANI is as hypocritical as much of your other conduct and words; this is a waste of time and is just more obstructionism and and a way to keep from answering to issues and RMs and to seek official muzzling of me to keep me from critiquing the NCL agenda and your own inconsistent positions on many matters. I will find that lengthy derision you launched at me re the category redirects which you deny making, as it was competely an NPA, being insulting and also somewhat racist towards me as a non-indigenous person.] (]) 05:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

*Skookum1 is passionate about what he thinks is best for Misplaced Pages. While Skookum1 could have picked less inflammatory words I can understand his frustration when faced with a group of editors who don't understand what the guidelines (] and ]) say, and and . Faced with that sort of remark and the belief by this group of editors that "one size fits all" ("Foo people: and "Foo language") even when this leads to article titles that violates ] it is no wonder that he tends to get frustrated. ] (]) 16:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::There isn't a single monolithic group of editors. Over years now, I've dealt with the exact same situation, have been equally frustrated, but read and am familiar with the current iteration of both conventions, discuss the issues on the talk pages of those conventions, and don't resort to personal attacks. -] (]) 17:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
::<small>Given there's established consensus to violate ] in the name of ] when it comes to article titles in certain other parts of the encyclopedia, ''that'' ship sailed long ago. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 19:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)</small>

===Me, too===

In , Skookum1 attributes all kinds of unspecified bad intent to me and others. This is uncalled for. ] (]) 05:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:Geez, yet more conflation and distortion claiming to be NPA when really it is evasion of the gist of your opposition, which is obstructionist and not about guidelines or real-world usage, but only a defence of your claim that the title in question is ambiguous, which it is ''NOT'' and you ignore both guidelines and cites/stats produced by entrenching the belief that it ''IS'' ambiguous, despite being no different from ], ] and other town items that share a name with now-archaic usages;] is very clear about such issues but you muddy the waters despite ''proof'' that the District of Saanich ''is the primary usage'' in the course of justifying ignoring guidelines that I am acting under the mandate of, and with consensus from other WPCANADA editors.] (]) 05:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

*Skookum1, forgive me for being extremely blunt here, but there's a saying that's relevant to your situation here. Extremely relevant, even. "When you're in a hole, ''stop digging''." - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 08:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
**Your repeated attacks on my writing style buried the very relevant points I raised and the support votes coming from ''informed'' and conscientious editors who understand what I'm talking about and don't hassle me for my writing style as if it were a crime; BHG's closure in making me the target of the negative and off-guideline closure are of the same kind as your own targeting of me in <s>your</s> Fayenatic's close of last year of the previous CfD. and rather than heed him, <s>you</s> ignored , which is totally contrary to the way any discussion is supposed to be decided on; on guidelines and facts, not targeting the proponent as a reason to deny the very needed CfD to correct the very bad and vague resulting stasis at a very questionable title. Others see my points and agree; the closure of the Squamish town RM was similarly skewed by procedural bafflegab and the endless TLDR mantra by those who cannot manage to read extended argument or even the guidelines, and by a host of opposition votes from people voting against the proposal in well-established and persistent patterns of knee-jerk opposition to ''anything'' I do or say.....] (]) 14:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
* '''Wow''' I'm not sure if Skookum1 could have proved the OP's point any better. Might have been better to plead the Fifth, however, based on the above alone, I forsee a break in Skookum1's editing patterns in the near future <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 10:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
**You mean the huge amount of valuable work I've been putting in despite endless harassment from a certain faction who want to see me gone because I'm in their way? Summary censure of a valuable contributor and very encyclopedically-conscious editor because of the insecurities towards my lengthy writingz and detailed commentary and wide-ranging interests and knowledge, or silencing my ability to respond to putdowns and insults accordingly? Is Wiki-bureacracy putting itself ahead of content so readily that someone who's created a huge mass of articles is so easily shut out by someone's attacks against me reaching such fever pitch and endless hypocritical accusations against me by those stonewalling and degrading me on a regular basis? Really? Is that what Misplaced Pages is about? The iron hand of so-called wikiquette and blatant hypocrisy about same, rather than honestly and fully addressing issues of content and TITLE??] (]) 14:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::] provides the definition of "personal attacks," which includes, "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence." -] (]) 15:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi
:::You have also successfully showcased why there is ] (Specifically the part stating "... long-time user who believes he or she is more important than other editors, long of course being subjective). Seriously just in the ANI responding to your behavior you have tossed out at least half a dozen dispersions. The requirements to edit also include being able to work in a colaborative environment; content isn't created in a vacuum. Creating a hostile editing environment is not the way to go. ] (]) 15:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to AN/I, Skookum1, the little that I've learned is that, regardless of your contributions thus far, editors that are seen as disrupting the project are sanctioned. I've seen editors who were productive for years and years, then some straw breaks the camel's back, they go off, making accusations and can't be talked down off the ledge and they end up being blocked. Editors here are asking you to asking you to come down from the ledge. Enough of the conspiracy theories, claims of being ganged up are rarely met with empathy because these are never one-sided disputes.

Also, no one, I mean, '''no one''', wants to read a wall of text. If you want people to read your argument, please be concise, direct and on topic.<font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 18:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Destructive editing by ] ==
{{collapsetop|Uh, ANI isn't DR and I can't see this ending with a positive outcome for anyone. RFC/U is a better venue. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 06:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)}}
{{user|TheRedPenOfDoom}}

Yet again, Red Pen washes up on the shores of ANI.

This, for those unfamiliar, is the most deletionist of deletionists. Half an article wiped as one, always with the letter of policy (usually WP:BURDEN) to support them. Yet this is a ''profoundly'' negative contributor (and I'm this view). Look at the contribs history - a sea of red (big reds too, taking 5k off an article in one bite is commonplace) and remarkably lacking in any sort of positive contribution. 50k+ edits and 8 article creations. This is an editor solely interested in serious admin bizniz, and with zero thought for ''contributing'' to an encyclopedia.

Mostly they limit themselves to trivial crap, fortunately. They rarely approach a serious article and have yet to demonstrate any subject knowledge in any particular field. Although they do have a nasty little sideline in going after articles whose contributors disagree with them, see ]. I post this today because today's deletion targets started to get close to robotics articles, a subject where they might get to leave lasting harm behind. We see ] tagged as a dicdef, a favourite tactic for working up to deletion. Then ], a German walking robot, gets half its volume and ''most'' of its six generations deleted, but not all of them – making the article a rather pointless travesty, yet not having the balls to take it to AfD with an audience. ] is another similar robot, probably the best known robot using ], and again its demolished without rhyme or reason. The external links are removed because ] who built it have 404'ed a page in a reorg (Google has it as top link for "Boston Dynamics Rhex", which is hardly robot science to rediscover). Then the content is removed as unsourced. Most importantly, ] (as the broad topic-level article) gets cut in half and all sources removed as . That's sites like ], ] and ].

I reverted these deletions. Of course I was edit-warred to delete them again in moments. ] is just something for the little people.

What is going on, what is going on with this project and what is going on with ]? I do not believe (and certainly hope not) that Red Pen's ''repeated'' actions have the support of the community as a whole. We have always had articles that are less than perfect, we have ] and we have guidance in place for how those concerned, interested or simply so inclined can progress articles ''forwards'' to improve them. These are better guidelines than Red Pen's simple "scorched earth" policy on everything he touches. This is particularly so when he either doesn't know who JPL or Boston Dynamics are, or lies to misrepresent the content hes deleting (and just read his past history for plenty of examples of such). This project, and the state it has reached, was not achieved by editors who acted as Red Pen is doing. Is this the behaviour we want for the future? For if so, it's time to start abandoning a lot of past policies and kicking out a lot of old editors, myself included, who are simply incompatible with this brave new world of "authoring by deletion" and dogmatic simplicity over knowledge. ] (]) 02:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:I have to disagree with this. TRPOD is a valuable contributer, I don't think he's perfect but I've had dealings with him on a few issues related to Bollywood stuff and my impression is that he does a lot of work that is difficult and often ignored precisely because people just give up because of promotionalism and such. There needs to be a balance between inclusionist and deletionists, sometimes quality is improved much like with trees by pruning what doesn't work. Sometimes though an abundance of information is desired too. I think it's more of a philosophical differences in approaches. ] (]) 02:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:: BRD isn't philosophy. Red Pen is perhaps the editor ''most'' convinced of his own perfection and least open to discourse about article content. I don't know anything about Bollywood and I can't comment on that (and we surely do see a lot of spam) – but when he pops up in a field I ''do'' understand, like the major RS-worthy players in the field of robotics, or even whether the ] is an unreliable tabloid or not, then I recognise when he's talking crap. ] (]) 02:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::I'm not 100% what's happening here so no comment on the validity, it may well be, I'm just vouching for my dealings with him. ] (]) 02:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD is a valuable contributor. If Andy Dingley were to leave due to TRPoD's editing, I would have a hard time not considering that another valuable contribution. Removing material that is not derived from reliable sources and eradicating original research from articles is a ''good'' thing. Objecting to the removal of unsourced material is a ''bad'' thing. It really is that simple, Andy, and if you have objections to it, I would suggest that you do something else for a hobby.&mdash;](]) 04:05, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

*I have to agree the editor's sole reason for existence seems to be negation, the name, probably a sock, if my five decades on earth mean anything experiencewise, speaks for itself, even if one doesn't pat attention to the behavior. The complainant should bring up some diffs, they will justify action. Just complaining doesn't, unfortunately. ] (]) 04:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*<ec x2>*Deleting material which isn't controversial but is unsourced would drop the total text of the encyclopedia by 90%. And thankfully, doing so isn't required or even strongly suggested by policy. If TRPOD believes that material is false or has a basis for suspecting that the material is wrong, that's one thing. But looking at the removal at LAURON, it's a terrible call and he is edit warring rather than discussion. Sure, be bold, but when reverted discuss. That's what ] is about. I'm not a fan of this editor in any case, but crap like that is just indefensible. (In particular calling 20 years of academic research a product list implies a huge lack of understanding of the topic. So huge I think ] applies.) ] (]) 04:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::], you've been here long enough to understand ]. Once the material was challenged due to being unsourced, it is the responsibility of the person ''restoring'' the material to provide the citations. There are no exceptions to that policy. None whatsoever. Your opinion of the removal or the quality of the challenge is irrelevant: once removed for lack of sourcing, it can only be returned with inline citations.&mdash;](]) 04:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::Read the rest of WP:BURDEN please--there is a balancing act here. "When tagging or removing material for lacking an inline citation, please state your concern that there may not be a published reliable source for the content, and therefore it may not be verifiable. If you think the material is verifiable, try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it." If TRPoD stated that they couldn't source the material, fine. But they didn't. Also notice that sourced material was removed with a justification that implies a massive lack of understanding of the topic (as if they didn't read it in fact). I know well enough that you and I won't come to agreement on this topic. But the fact is the vast majority of Misplaced Pages is unsourced and the vast majority of that material is correct. Deleting useful things because no one has gotten around to sourcing it ''when you've no reason to believe the material is wrong'' is a horrible idea. ] (]) 04:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::Hobit, you cannot just add unsourced material per WP:OR. Whether the "vast majority" of Misplaced Pages is unsourced is a something else (I also seriously doubt that much of it is unsourced), correct material or not. Kww hit the nail right on the head about unsourced material being challenged. I would listen to him, he knows exactly what he's talking about. ] (]) 04:45, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::All of that is true, ], and serves as a reason to caution TRPoD. Your restoration of the material is prohibited, however: "]". TRPoD has challenged the material: his challenge is unambiguous. ] is policy, ] is an essay: it cannot override policy. If the material is so clearly and obviously correct and so clearly and obviously valuable, then it should be trivially easy for you or another editor to provide the inline citations that are mandated by policy.&mdash;](]) 04:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::I don't really want to have this discussion in two places. But could you please read ] again and acknowledge that the person removing the material has obligations also? In addition, could you justify removing the sourced material (and cite)? ] (]) 05:02, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::Fine, I'll restrict my comments to here from now on: the sole inline citation removed was to a YouTube video, not normally considered a reliable source. The obligations on the person removing the material are suggestions only, while the obligations on the person ''restoring'' the material are an absolute and unequivocal mandate.&mdash;](]) 05:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Here's an example of very constructive editing on the part of {{U|TheRedPenOfDoom}}: ] - promotional content replaced with encyclopedic content, and citations placed appropriately. &mdash;] (]) 05:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*I don't really see the point of the edits on ]. "Not a product catalogue" doesn't apply here as this robot is not a product for sale in a catalog. Unsourced material should be deleted if it is contested--but let it be contested validly. If it is spammy, not neutrally written, contentious, likely untruthful, sure-- but was that the case here? ] (]) 05:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::Hobit, there are obligations for both the remover and the adder. As the adder, you need to support additions with reliable sources. As a remover, one would have to do so if the material is not supported by a reliable source. Not every source is reliable. ] (]) 05:11, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
* If the encyclopedia only valued contributions with a positive byte size then this place would be a swarm of trivia and bad anecdotal narratives. Thank God, or TRPoD or whatever, that we have editors who run the encyclopedia through some kind of filter so we can churn out quality over quantity.--v/r - ]] 05:11, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*The OP's complaints should be dealt with as individual incidents through normal channels if they have merit. RPoD does excellent work deleting large swathes of absolutely unacceptable material in many places. See e.g. the history of ]. I haven't looked at the specific complaints of OP, but really, there's no *general* case to be made that there's something wrong with RPoD's editing. And who knew that I'd end my editing today agreeing completely with TParis, eh?&mdash; ] (]) 05:21, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
**Well hey now, I'm an agreeable fellow! Sometimes... :) --v/r - ]] 05:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*How many baseless and inaccurate accusations can be made against an editor before ] comes into play? ] <sub>]</sub> 06:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
{{collapsebottom}}

== Altimgamr sock ==
{{archive top|1=All blocked and added to the SPI. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 08:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)}}
Can an admin please block this sockpuppet of ] that has . The user name may be an actual password as he has disclosed it before (see "Edits by User:44thPresidentOfUSA" above in ANI.) Thanks, ] (]) 05:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:Thank you for blocking that sock. He is also currently online as ] with edits like with a fake forum reference and nice edit summary. ] (]) 06:02, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== ] ==

For the past 24 hours, this user has been harassing me about an article I'm not even involved with. He wants me to do something about the '']'' article, wherein he insists that the film is in English. I have told him time and time again that I have never seen the film, so I have no say on what languages were used on it. My only issue with him was his constant vandalism of '']'', claiming that the English dub of the U.S. version is the official language. - ] (]) 06:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== ] ==
{{archive top|1=TPA revoked. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 08:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)}}
This vandalism-only account blocked already is repeatedly vandalizing ]. See and . ] (]) 06:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:If vandalizing own talk page, then there's no question that the user's talk page rights should be revoked if not already revoked. ] (]) 07:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Naghmehetaati ==

Could someone, perhaps someone who speaks Persian, have a word with Naghmehetaati to see whether it's possible to get them to stop posting walls of text in Persian on ]. I removed several of their posts and left a message at ] but without success. Some of the comments appear to have been directed at Hassan Rouhani himself and others seem to treat the page as a forum. They probably mean well but they don't seem to understand the purpose of the talk page. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 08:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:I used Google Translate to put a note on their talk page. The text is almost certainly distorted in some way, but perhaps it might be enough to get the idea across. ] (]) 09:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== India Against Corruption disruption yet again ==

We've got more incoming disruption at ] from the same meatpuppets/SPAs/role accounts that have previously and tendentiously been pushing a POV and issuing legal threats. I'm really rather fed up of this place at the moment and can't be bothered digging out diffs but if someone is around who knows the history then please could you do the necessary. Plenty in the archives here, and stuff at mediation, with OTRS etc. I have reported it to RFPP but that can take hours and this is election season in India.

You'll see some recent back-and-forth on my talk page history and at that of {{u|TheWikiIndian}} (who is blocked for 2 weeks right now but only the tip of the iceberg). - ] (]) 08:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:I protected the page when I noticed the edit warring a few minutes ago - hadn't seen this or RPP. This is the second time in a few weeks that this page has been protected. The elections are 12 May 2014 and I expect a number of attempts to use Misplaced Pages to promote candidates and parties. ] (]) 09:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::I suspect the problems will continue after the elections because this is a massive misunderstanding of how we operate. They've been invited on numerous occasions to create ] or similar ''if'' they think they can satisfy ] but they never bother. Which is because up to now it hasn't satisfied GNG and they know it. Anyway, I'm gone & it is no longer my problem. - ] (]) 09:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::This is a gross distortion of the facts. IAC is an apolitical organisation. We care a fig for elections. FYI, yhe elections are on 9.April.2014 onwards. It is Sitush who is promoting political candidates Arvind Kejriwal (who was a part of IAC but is now a politician) and Anna Hazare (who was never a part of IAC, but is endorsing candidates for a fee). On 27.March 2014 the leading Indian newspaper "The Hindu" published this . Sitush now stands exposed and refuses to discuss this news report . Accordingly IAC '''demands''' that all references in the article titled "]" to Anna HAzare / "Team Anna" are deleted within 36 hours. Mr. ] and Mr. ] are the trademark and copyright holders for all aspects connected to the brandname "India Against Corruption". ] (]) 09:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*The article has been fully protected. ] (]) 09:21, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
**The above looks like a "chilling effect threat" to me. Probably the IP should get a time out for that. ] (]) 09:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
***Please read the news report first and the retraction by the newspaper. Does Misplaced Pages still justify IMPERSONATION of our body? Can any Admin explain WHY Sitush dropped out of MEDIATION when he couldn't justify his impersonating edits ? ] (]) 09:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
****What happens after 36 hours when we don't comply with your demands? (Incidentally holding trademarks doesn't prevent the organization from being discussed without its permission, and, at least in US law, one cannot copyright a name.) ] (]) 09:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*****We have many options open to us. This is NOT a legal threat. ] (]) 09:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
******Discuss us freely, but don't allow IMPERSONATIUON of us on your website. Impersonation is a contravention of WMF's "Terms of Use". ] (]) 09:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
********Impersonation of who? You're not a named account, you're an IP. We have no way of knowing who you are, so there's no way to prevent "impersonation". Make an account, show OTRS some proof that you represent an organization, and if it's verified, then if someone claiming to be from the organization turns out to be an impersonator, something can be done. Until then... Beside, who are claiming is impersonating the IAC? Sitush? Simply because he's written an article based on facts from reliable sources that you don't like? You don't and can't (and won't) control what's written about you here, so if that's what you're after, it's not gonna happen. ] (]) 09:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*******Just to assist you folks. On 27.March.2014 the venerable Indian Newspaper "The Hindu" deleted a news story that Mr Hazare was with IAC and fully published our rejoinder that Mr. Anna Hazare was '''never''' a part of IAC, and after confirming this from Mr. Hazare. The link is above. ] (]) 09:42, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}
My was removed by someone. As for discussing freelym, we've done that for nine months and you "lost", for want of a better word. It is things like this that have put me off Misplaced Pages, ie: clueless contributors & the fact that the WP systems mean one has to put up with them for such a prolonged time. Ending the ability to edit anonymously would be a start. - ] (]) 09:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::Agreed, regarding IP editing. ] (]) 09:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:IP, howe many more times must you idiots be told that the article does not say Hazare was a part of the IAC organisation that you represented. He was a part of the IAC ''movement'' and a member of a committee that was popularly identified with that movement and the term ('''not''' the organisation) IAC. - ] (]) 09:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::IP blocked for evasion - I think it's pretty clear that, whether sockpuppet or meatpuppet, this is a continuation of the usual IAC disruption. Since there's clearly no reasoning with this person/these people, blocking on sight seems to be the only strategy that will work. ]&nbsp;]&zwj;] 09:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

*@ ]: it wasn't the IP who removed your earlier post — I think that must have been an accident. The sock you mentioned in the removed post has been indeffed, along with another one who just removed the header to this section from the ANI TOC. Possibly more interestingly, the more established editor ] has made legal threats and called you a paid editor who published inaccurate information in ] as a paid edit to solicit votes for Mr. Kejrijwal's party and to confuse the public. I think you recognize that, Sitush — do you have the link to that blog again? — and ] is in it too, he and the paid editor Sitush jointly vandalised Mr.Roy's Misplaced Pages bio-entry. Well, it ''is'' April 1. These abuses by Sitush and admins have been reported to Michelle Paulson and Philippe Beaudette, TheWikiIndian states. I only blocked him for two weeks for egregious personal attacks, which he repeated on his page after the block, so I removed talkpage access. But if anybody wants to indef him pending retraction of the legal threats, I won't stand in the way. There may be multiple reasons — a checkuser of TheWikiIndian vs the IP posting in this thread would be nice — but anyway, I started with two weeks. ] &#124; ] 10:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC).

:*TheWikiIndian's claims are just bizarre. For example, I've supported deletion of ], ], ] and ] - those all relate to the Aam Aadmi Party that I'm suposedly being paid to support here and they're just the examples showing in my 7-day watchlist (others went before then). There is a lot of abuse of Misplaced Pages going on at the moment in the name of the Indian general election but I have absolutely nothing to gain from favouring one group or another: I'm not Indian, I'm not resident in that country, I've never voted in any government or local government election in any country, I'm not a member of any political association anywhere, etc. My only connection to India is a great-great-grandparent who was born in Bangalore to English parents who may have been very minor officials in the Raj or clerks to traders. She was back in England by the time she married, aged 21. - ] (]) 10:45, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

=== Community Ban Proposal for ] ===
It's pretty obvious from the last several ANI threads about IAC that {{Userlinks|HRA1924}} and associated sock/meatpuppets are ] (or are here to ]). I'm not generally a fan of community bans, but given the persistent sockpuppetry, legal threats, and refusal to understand how Misplaced Pages works, I think the ability to block and revert on sight would be a significant net positive for the encyclopedia.
* '''Support''' as proposer ] (]) 11:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' The problem is, we're not sure whether it is the same person or various meatpuppets. There are allegedly 29,000 people on the IAC mailing list hosted via riseup.net. Since it is an activist group and communicates in large part using electronic methods, I'd guess that there'll be quite a few different people acting in a co-ordinated manner here. We know that they've used open proxies here before, so things are really messy. I think admins just need to be aware that, for example, as soon as someone mentions paid editing/impersonation/libel/Indian legal system etc in connection with IAC then they're probably of the same tendentious origin and should be blocked at that point.

::I've had some people in good standing from India contacting me about this: they would like something to be done that stops the torrent of clueless stuff coming here from the organisation. But they dare not get involved because they are in the country & so there are issues re: reprisals as well as the legal system. It should be borne in mind that practically anyone can open a case in India by filing a ] - although that doesn't constitute a formal charge (as far as I am aware, but I'm no lawyer), it is a matter of public record & so can affect employment etc.

::<small>Ha! I've just noticed my very own AN is showing in the edit header for this page. As Bowie would say, ''we can be "heroes", just for one day'' ...</small> - ] (]) 13:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

:::On my talk page another IAC sock claims " 1,03,000+ edits 832+ still working accounts" while calling editors chutiyas.. ] (]) 17:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

:::::::This is he - 1 limb of the HRA1924 network. Can we discuss this sensibly without being banned and blocked ? FYI, I've been on Misplaced Pages for 9+ years, 1,03,000+ edits, and 833+ working user accounts. The HRA1924 "team" had 47+ years at Misplaced Pages and 6,00,000+ edits between us. And also FYI, we hardly ever edit India-centric articles. I only called Sitush that] (]) 17:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Not while y'all are still making legal threats (saying "this is not a legal threat" doesn't make it not a legal threat), baseless accusations, and personal attacks, no. ]&nbsp;]] 17:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::{{Reply to|Sitush}} Now there's an insteresting concept. We could deal with this coordination/canvasing via the authorized mechanisms laid out in ] or one of the related ArbCom cases. Yes I know this makes me the poster child for an attack by members of IAC (which ironically is trying to corrupt the wikipedia decision process) and for being an an ArbCom groupie, but as I recall this is the 4th or 5th time I've seen the topic come up so I consider it time to start taking hard actions against the instigators of wikidrama. ] (]) 17:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== 77.97.151.145 and ] ==

Could someone have a word with {{user|77.97.151.145}} and their contributions to this talk page, which consist entirely of intermittent abusive messages about renaming ] to ], (, , ) a discussion that has been done to death so much it has a prominent entry in ]. Cheers. ] ] ] 09:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== User:Robomod ==
] has been adding external links to fashionmodeldirectory.com since its first edit, now also crosswiki. I'm doubtful about good or bad faith. The template itself is questionable and imho that's clearly spam which should be checked by local sysops. --] (]) 11:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

* Dear Sysops. Dear ]. I'm not a spammer, spambot or anything that wants to harm Wiki at all. The reason why I have been adding a few links to FMD is simple. They have revamped their website and their new designer profiles (all profiles actually) are more than just useful for Misplaced Pages. The interconnectivity brings you from a designer profile to the brand of the designer , up to all the editorials , advertisements and works that have been done by the designer. From there you have the featured models, booked agencies. Generally speaking, I believe and many on Wiki do, that FMD offers the user a lot of informative material. And that's what external links are about.
:I've not "only" done links to FMD, I actually write clearly on my user-profile what I am into on Wikipeda. I've contributed a lot of editorial work and also other external sources such as imdb. I love fashion and I love models, designers and brands. I also admit that I love FMD and that I spend hours hours on that website. If you consider the links I've added to you the designers being non-informative and spam, please highlight them and I will personally remove them and apologize for decreasing the quality on that parts. I don't think there are any. I'm also fine with being supervised in the future to show and prove that I am only acting in good faith.
:I also believe that my judgment of how important fashion information is, is above the average wiki-editor and I’d love to point the perfect example and I kindly ask you all to consider the following under a neutral point-of-view:

:I have linked to FMD from ] with the following link:
:http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/designers/dries-van-noten/ . The link provided contains an image of Dries (he is an awesome designer btw!) , describes with new content the designer himself and his look (wiki doesn’t do that).
:From there the user is able to click on the associated brands: http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/designers/dries-van-noten/brands/ , which is only one in this case, but others like Versace have dozens of brands.
:From there again, you have the brand profile , which to be honest should also be listed in the external links .
:The brand profile (http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/brands/dries-van-noten/) offers even more about Dries as a brand, and includes contact details but the most important is: it shows me his last fashion shows http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/brands/dries-van-noten/shows/ and 560 (!) fully credited editorials : http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/brands/dries-van-noten/editorials/ .
:I assume that ] didn’t notice this immense set of information when he/she accused me of being a spam, but I totally understand the concerns as mentioned above.
:Generally speaking, I kindly ask you to not take any measures against me and my work on Wiki. I love Misplaced Pages and I love FMD, and with regards to all the information used here on Misplaced Pages which comes from FMD since the very beginning of Misplaced Pages (thousands of references?), I also think that Misplaced Pages owes this to FMD.
:As for the crosswiki accusation: I'm multilingual , I'm fluent in Italian (sono anche cittadino italiano :)), German, mostly with French, even Croatian, Russian and a few more. I study languages. I also invite you to consider the fact that the remark in bold at the top of the page, saying "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." was not followed, I would have been happy to have this discussed earlier. Kind regards ] 11:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:: Please don't use imdb as a good example - it's not a ]. From a quick check, FMD is as bad as imdb and should never be used on Misplaced Pages of any language - using it would violate ] and ]. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 12:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::: You probably don't have the necessary background to know whether FMD is a good reliable source or not. I'm into fashion and I actually worked for a fashion label with both FMD and models.com, we - as a brand - sent these websites our press kits and official campaigns. If you consider FMD and IMDB to be so bad, then I believe 99% of the links should be removed and most fashion articles would have to be removed from Misplaced Pages as they rely on information of these websites. Furthermore, only accusing isn't the way here, tell me how and why you consider FMD not being reliable? They are a kind of authority in fashion business and I think you didn't check the facts with your "Quick check" (http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/info/about/). I also couldn't find any violations, you are welcome to point them out here. ] 12:52, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::: ''"we - as a brand - sent these websites our press kits and official campaigns"'' ... taadaaaa! And that's the reason it's not acceptable as an RS. Muchos gracias :-) <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 13:01, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::: At that time, the brands sent the original images of the fashion shows and I am sure they still do. Otherwise how could they have 1Mio credited fashion images? It's actually reliable that way rather than getting the material from "anyonmous users". Wouldn't you agree? ] 13:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::>that wants to harm Wiki at all
::Sigh.
::>adding a few links to FMD is simple
::A few? Try a few hundred.
::>They have revamped their website
::When exactly was this? You've been adding links to this website since , which was nearly six years ago. Also, are you trying to promote this website? That paragraph reads suspiciously like a sales pitch to me. We have a ] and your fluff does not address this.
::>many on Wiki do
::
::>I also believe that my judgment of how important fashion information is
::The lack of referenced content you have added in contrast to the number of links speaks otherwise.
::> I also think that Misplaced Pages owes this to FMD.
::Huh?
::>we - as a brand - sent these websites our press kits and official campaigns... It's actually reliable that way rather than getting the material from "anyonmous users"
::I was wondering why the site's profiles sounded like vapid promotionalism. What about the things the brands don't tell you?
::Now for the million dollar question: why are the overwhelming majority of your edits and link additions to this website? You should have broader editing interests, having been here for six years and made over 1300 edits. ] 13:12, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::: I didn't notice it was that much. I agree that I was kinda crazy for fashion a few years ago. I am not related to Ford Models nor FMD. As for FMD, I've been helping in the past with submissions but stopped after they started to rarely accept user submissions. I do have two editors in my FB-profile but don't know them personally. That's all. When I wrote "owe" I meant that many articles on Misplaced Pages rely on their information. It was not meant in any bad way. I just feel that we need an administrator here who is also into fashion and understands the work of a designer. I must admit, it's horrible to get dashed by a couple friendly(?) administrators. Addendum: The revamp motivated me to add links, like it was back in 2010 at their last revamp. You see the parallels? I agree with your comment that I should have more interests than fashion alone. I'll change that in my behaviour. ] 13:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::It's good to see this here at last, though I'd have thought ] would be a more appropriate venue. This is major, wide-ranging, long-term spamming. {{tl|Fashiondesigner}} was nominated for deletion by {{u|SilkTork}} in 2012, but the spam aspect did not come up in ], such as it was. That template has 353 transclusions, {{tl|Fashionmodel}} has 613, {{tl|Fashionlabel}} 29. We seem to have external links to {{url|www.fashionmodeldirectory.com}}. A large proportion of those appear to have been added by just one user. I suggest that their utility to that website is lot greater than their utility to Misplaced Pages, and that they should be removed. ] (]) 13:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::: "their utility to that website is lot greater than their utility to Misplaced Pages" . Please have a look at the model profiles my dear, how many information come from FMD? What benefit should they have from a link to a designer that has probably no visits per day? Viceversa you have for example 600 galleries to the brand or designer or model related? However, I leave the decision to the sysops and belive and hope they don't see it one-sided as you all do . I apologized but I am even more sorry for FMD that due to my behaviour I have probably ruined their reputation on Misplaced Pages. ] 14:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::::Have you edited Misplaced Pages under any other names since you started editing as Robomod in 2008? ] (]) 14:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::::: I have probably edited many articles, especially not-fashion-realted ones, more spontaneous without logging in. I should have logged in more often to prove that I am not a stupid spammer, as what I am exposed now. I did the triple of edits in the content and without log in, when I read an article and noticed mistakes (I suffer from perfectionism). Shouldn't be an excuse at all. I'm sad that my username may be deleted now. ] 14:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::::::Thank you, but that's not quite what I was asking. Have you edited while logged in with another name? (BTW, I don't believe anyone's saying they'll delete your username.) ] (]) 14:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::::::: Oh sorry. No, actually I have only this account. Is that somehow relevant? ] 15:13, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::::::::It is. You mentioned above that "many articles on Misplaced Pages rely on their information" so I looked for references to fashionmodeldirectory.com on Misplaced Pages and who had added them. On checking contribution histories, I saw the familiar signs of one person editing first with one account, then with another. One of those accounts was Robomod. I thought I should give you the opportunity to save some of your reputation here by owning up to those edits and revealing account names. I invite you to do so now. ] (]) 15:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::::::::: Which reputation? I have no other accounts. "familiar signs"? Maybe someone copied the annotation, as I did in the past and others did as well. I think the SysOps can look that up anyway. This is turning into stoning like with the Talibans. Did anyone of you fabulous guys answer to my questions? I argumented everything and you are just trying to put dirt over me , over and over. Now I know what kind of people are managing Misplaced Pages. Do whatever you all must do as this is so ridiculous and you have fun in torturing people who try to argue seriously. ] 15:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

::::::::::::Don't worry, I'm not someone who manages Misplaced Pages - not by a long shot. I've written up what I've found at ]; there's space for you and others to comment there. ] (]) 18:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

* Just as a last note before I leave the place: It is said that nobody of those who bashed me now have answered the questions I asked. I apologized and I also defended myself with argument whcih were left apart. I hope the sysops don't judge my wrong contributing, but moreover look at what is found at the end of the links. It's not spam, it gives you much more information about all the profiles I have linked and I thought that this is the understanding of adding an external link. Please consider the above example of how much of further information a Misplaced Pages-user is able to find by following it. Thanks for reading me. ] 14:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

:* I personally find the information provided in the FMD website quite useful. I have requested for a few modifications to be done in a number of profiles in the past and they require members to provide reliable sources beforehand, regarding the new information being submitted, if not it gets rejected. That speaks a lot of how professional and accurate they strive to be. Furthermore, most, if not all, of the fashion-related articles in Misplaced Pages are based on information from FMD. Just take a look at the ] article, for example, and how many notes use FMD as their reference (https://en.wikipedia.org/Chanel#References). If links to FMD are removed, I'm pretty sure it would hurt Misplaced Pages more than FMD, but then the same should be done with links to Models.com, IMDB or other similar informative databases. -- ] (]) 16:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

:* The problem is that we have here administrators who are not able to evaluate this. They see my account with many links to them and for them it's spam now. Noone of the above have visited the website from my example above. Where the link to Dries van Noten turns into an information flood that Wiki can't provide. And I agree, they should remove all articles that contain information from FMD. After all FMD is just like a fashion-Misplaced Pages, with the difference that you can't just edit and add funny information. ] 16:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the editors here can properly evaluate a modeling website, posting links to your website shows a clear conflict of interest ] ...Misplaced Pages shouldn't be used to promote a product, service or website and adding links to your website in external links on multiple articles is a kind of self-promotion. As far as reliable sources, Misplaced Pages prefers independent, secondary source that have some kind of editorial process (peer-reviewed journals, mainstream newspapers who have managing editors, books that are not self-published, etc.). What is not prized is a blog or website that reflects a particular individual's point of view, unless the article is about that individual and his POV. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 18:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

: Thank you Liz. Please note that this is not my website, but I wish it was. Your comment is practically in line with what FMD is. They are seen as a neutral authority within the fashion industry, just like models.com, but with the difference that they don't accept any advertisings and promotions from any listed entities (see their about-page posted earlier : It says "FMD is not a place to buy promotion"). And they have independent managing editors ] just like Misplaced Pages has, some of them are accredited journalists (two of them I have on Facebook as mentioned earlier). I think I shall invite the editors from FMD to this discussion, since we are now talking about a punishment of their property although the mistake of "spamminG was mine. ] 18:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

i personally don't think that this is such a big issue at all. why make an issue over legitimate and reliable content information from a source that is most comprehensive when it comes to fashion data. if you look closely you will see that 90 percent of models info comes from the fashion model directory. for that matter if we are speaking about the legitimacy and reliability of data then for that matter why not question models.com, supermodels.nl or any other such service? imho i honestly feel that this is a totally biased and unjust situation that is being directed in effort towards ]. for that matter there are thousands and thousands of companies that have users on wikipedia editing and posting content on their behalf. why is the legitimacy not in question for them? if your intent is to bash ] i think the message has been sent across loud and clear. ] (]) 18:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

: Thank you! I did a mistake, I apologized for linking to many times (although my userpage states that I'm linking to other databases since ever!) and now they are trying to punish a fashion database that was source of thousands of fashion articles. ] 18:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Inappropriate public slur by WilyD on another editor's character at RfD ==

At ], {{user|WilyD}} has publicly and completely unfairly accused another editor, {{user|Gorobay}}, of "making racist slurs". The accusation is unfair because the other editor nominated a redirect in Macedonian to the article ] with the rationale "not especially Macedonian" amongst a batch of similar nominations for cross-lingual redirects, with similar rationales in each case.

I removed the comment and replaced it with {{tl|redacted}} (which I now notice is meant to be subst'ed&nbsp;— my mistake), as I consider making public accusations of that nature about an innocent editor as being grossly inappropriate. However, I noted at the time that I was willing to assume good faith as to the comment's origin: namely that WilyD misunderstood the nomination (as Gorobay was clearly stating that our article "Work ethic" is not tied to a Macedonian title, not talking about the Macedonian people). Which I must also say is stretching AGF to its limit, because WilyD has also replied to several of those other nominations without making the same error. However, WilyD subsequently {{diff|diff=602245215|label=restored}} the accusation. I removed it again, only for WilyD to {{diff|diff=602249578|label=restore it again}} (and in the process delete my additional comment noting the re-removal).

I think that my action in removing this grotesque and uncalled-for public slur on the character of another editor was entirely justified under ], and that WilyD is acting entirely inappropriately in trying to force its inclusion in the page. I would appreciate hearing some opinions about whether I'm right or wrong. — ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 11:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

: Seems to me he's taking the piss. Anyway, where did you attempt to discuss it with him? — ] 11:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::That would be where I replied to his comment on the page, and he replied to it with an edit summary, and I replied with a comment on the page again, which he deleted while replying with an edit summary. That's discussion enough for me. — ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 11:52, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

:::While I don't particularly think it's Gorobay's intention to write something that comes across as racist, rather, merely sloppiness, it's also pretty unambiguous that writing "Work ethic is not especially Macedonian" carries a lot of racist baggage, and isn't appropriate. I haven't made the same statement on other nominations don't carry quite the same problem (though I think you could make a legitimate case that trying to make en.wiki less usable, rather than more useable, for readers with moderate English skills is ethnically insensitive, which is relevant to the background here). ], rather, when one accidentally makes a racist statement, they should retract or modify it, rather than complain about being called out. I would be willing to redact that comment if Gorobay changed his nomination statement to something not carrying this kind of racist baggage. ]<font color="FF8800">]</font> 13:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::It is obviously not a racist statement, you're intentionally misinterpreting it, and misquoting him to make it sound more like racism is shameful. If you are going to double down and claim it is, then let's handle it this way: if you falsely accuse someone of making racist statements again, you'll be blocked from editing, the same as any non-admin would be. --] (]) 13:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::: (ec) Oh puh-leeeze. What Gorobay wrote was entirely obvious and clear, and reading that ethnic slur into it takes a really, really twisted approach. Seriously, WilyD, you are seeing phantoms here. And if you were aware that Gorobay (evidently) didn't intend to mean what you think could be understood from it, the right thing for you to say would still not have been "stay away from making racist slurs", but something like "by the way, I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but your statement could be misread as an ethnic slur; could you please re-word it?". I very strongly recommend you go there now and reword it along those lines, because the way you phrased it, you are in fact imputing racist intent to him, and that ''is'' a personal attack, on your part. ] ] 13:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::], I initially read this expecting to agree with you but I think we can chalk this up to a misunderstanding. Scott should have talked it over with you instead of directly redacting your comment and Gorobay could have picked a different phrasing, but I don't think this was anything more than an unintended double entendre. I agree with Future Perfect here (and also do think that Gorobay should revise his comment). '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 14:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::] doesn't require you to talk over anything for a comment as inappropriate as the one that I removed (which is still visible, by the way), and reading the rest of Gorobay's nominations in context makes it quite clear that his comment is in no need of revision. — ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 16:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, someone better put a lid on this now there's still time. — ] 13:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== 1241edit ==

I think we have some issues with {{u|1241edit}}, and to put it simply :
*] : a second account, {{u|Ss1241}}, was on the French Misplaced Pages this morning, . Do you need a RCU here as well, or is the result on FR enough ?
*] : this second account has been used this morning to give me a . Needless to say that "Vandalism" is not exactly what I have done. The main account is on FR for the same kind of misbehaving.

From what I can see, he or she has had , but also .

--] (]) 13:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

:What a user does on another wiki is outside the remit of the English wiki, so a banned user on the French Wiki will not be banned on the English wiki unless they have violated the policies here. Each wiki is self contained with its own independent policies. You would have to go to Metawiki to have their account globally locked but that would be a whole new level of policy violation. ] (]) 14:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::I mean, do you need a new RCU to prove that {{u|1241edit}} = {{u|Ss1241}} or not ? As far as I know, if you have multiple accounts, you have to declare them, not use one of them to insult an other contributor when you want to. --] (]) 15:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::: Well, if you believe they're violating ] on the English Misplaced Pages, you can open an ] <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 19:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::Are you suggesting that using a sockpuppet to issue fake "Warnning for Vandalism" could fall under the scope of ] ? I don't need to prove that those accounts belong to the same person, {{fr}}, so I'm not going to waste check users' time.
::::Just take one minute to read ] that he/she has received already. --] (]) 19:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== ] et al ==

* {{la|Roy Harter}}
* {{la|Skinnyman (studio)}}
* {{la|Dave McDonald (radio personality)}}
* {{user|Skinnyman2010}}
* {{user|208.68.178.38}}
* {{user|Royharter}}

Hate to bring this here, but I've already requested help at the BLP and username noticeboards, and asked that Roy Harter be protected, with no responses yet. A network of related and largely vanity articles by COI accounts, with copyright and poor sourcing problems and the possibility of sock or meat puppeting. Thanks, ] (]) 14:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. Did I do something wrong? I apologize if I did. I'm trying to fix the article by citing references. Thank you. ] (]) 16:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== I responded to a request, and now the requestor tells me I have "no consensus" ==

] asked me (on my talk page) to make edits to ] and ]. So, in good faith, I made them.<br>
] then said I had no consensus to make such edits, and now seems to want to engage in an edit war.<br>
You are probably not surprised to learn that I'm unimpressed by his response. And you are also probably not surprised that as I went to considerable effort (note: <u>considerable</u>) to make the changes he requested, I am quite pissed off. PARTICULARLY as I could have just ignored the request, or even politely responded: "No thanks."<br>
But I didn't. I took him at face value, assumed good faith, and made the requested edits.<br>
So, please advise where I should go from here. Thanks in advance, ] (]) 15:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Potential abuse of power ==
]
{{userlinks|Spartaz}} is mass deleting the joke AFD nominations that happen every year, simply because they don't like them. Almost every red link on ] page is due to them. Editors have ]] to talk to them about it, but they continue to claim that the nonsense is "disruption". However, doesn't ] say that jokes only need to be kept where casual readers won't see them? Not only is AFD a place where casual readers don't go, every page I've seen has been tagged as "humorous" so they are clearly identifiable as jokes. The page also says "As long as you follow these rules, feel free to have some fun on April Fools' Day. There is consensus against a complete ban of jokes on April Fools'." So it seems that these joke AFD nominations are not considered disruptive, and do not break any rules. It would seem that Spartaz is simply abusing his power to delete stuff they ]. To conclude, it is perfectly all right to have some fun here on April 1, and one admin disliking it doesn't change that. ] (]) 17:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*You're joking, right? ] (]) 18:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Well, if <ins>he's</ins> not, I am not either.] (]) 18:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:*Not necessarily. Spartaz is being a bit heavy-handed here. In fact, one could argue that deleting TenPoundHammer's user page is actually disruptive, unlike the joke AfDs Spartaz is determined to censor. ] '']''<small> (])</small> 18:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*Well, you didn't respond to my question, so I'm going to block you for being incommunicado. Just remember, indefinite is not infinite. ] (]) 18:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
**Also, while ] is kind of funny (and deleted by {{U|RHaworth}}, who last laughed when Benny Hill was still on TV), though not as funny as ], it's a joke that wears thin pretty quickly. I mean, who's going to comment on such a metametametametaMfD? ] (]) 18:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::*If Spartaz doesn't find these jokes funny, why did he delete TPH's userpage? Was he doing it to be POINTy? ] '']''<small> (])</small> 18:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*He is in violation the ] :( . ] (]) 18:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*:That's not official policy. Please find the real policy and see if Spartaz is indeed in violation (he might be). ] '']''<small> (])</small> 18:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*:: ] shows the current consensus. For anything else on Misplaced Pages, it's considered bad behaviour to act against established consensus. I don't see why this should be any different. ] (]) 18:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
* To be honest, I agree. If there is consensus that jokes should be ok, it doesn't seem proper for an admin who doesn't like it to start deleting things and ruin it for everyone else. ] (]) 18:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
**Weeeeell, I can't believe I'm jumping to Spartaz's defense here, but "ruin it for everyone else"? That's hardly what's going on here, and there are still plenty of jokes around. Just look in Category:Pokemon. ] (]) 18:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
**Joking is serious business - it must not be dis'd. ] (]) 18:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::where the joke doesn't mess up what the poor innocent reader of articles sees, anyway. That way lies ] ] (]) 18:33, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
* No, I am not joking. I am being completely serious. There is consensus that April Fools' Day jokes are OK on Misplaced Pages, as long as they are kept out of the mainspace and properly tagged. The pages I've seen that Spartaz hasn't yet deleted satisfy both of these conditions. He, therefore, has no right to delete them. Doing so is an abuse of power. You can't just delete stuff you don't like. ] (]) 18:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*<span style="display:none;">]</span>Meh. ]&nbsp;]] 18:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I note that ] and ] give 100% opposite and contradictory advice from each other. Likely leading to some of this confusion (Perhaps one of them is itself a meta joke?) In any case, I would suggest one of them be deleted so we at least have a consistent set of guidelines/policy for how these jokes should work.] (]) 18:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::I am almost positive that ] is a joke and I have removed the {{tl|policy}} template and added a {{tl|humor}} template. ]&nbsp;] 20:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::Nothing disruptive there then? :rolleyes: ] <sup>'']''</sup> 20:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
* I was confused by that as well. I agree that there should be one single page where all guidelines and such are collected. ] (]) 18:57, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
* I've submitted a merge request at ]. ] (]) 19:05, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*Just as there is no policy that guarantees the right to April Fools jokes, there is also no policy preventing admins from dealing with the banality as they see fit (by either closing the AfD or deleting it). ]] 19:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::], ]. ]. ] (]) 19:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
**(EC) Just as a point of order I deleted '''one'' AFD - which was for ] as it was clearly disruptive and borderline blpvio (seriously, if anyone can't see why this particular AFD was a bad idea they shouldn't be editing here). Beyond that I only deleted 8 MFDs - including one particularly amusing one that was designed to induce users to accidentally log out so that presumably everyone can have a big chuckle when the victims then edit with their ip address exposed. I restored one of the pages I deleted as it was a link page for the ''jokes''. I also deleted TPHs user page since they had asked for it to be deleted at MFD. Before anyone argues that this was POINTy, I would suggest that it was no more disruptive then putting it up for MFD in the first place and I did restore it the moment TPH asked. So yeah, BIG FAT HAIRY DEAL I'm a big meanie party-pooper who should be desysoppsed for my terrible crimes. Alternatively we can all piss off and do something useful instead of wasting time with this nonsense. I might take this more seriously if the original complainant had more then 94 edits in two years and had actually bothered to engage me on the subject on my talk page. Maybe that bit of courtesy and rules following only applies to admins? ] <sup>'']''</sup> 20:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*I don't really like this line, taken from ]: "If you don't like the cap don't behave like a child." Tons of kids edit Misplaced Pages, myself included, and it isn't fair to discriminate based on age. I think it's ok to have one day a year when we can joke around and have some fun. While I understand that some may not participate, it's not as if Misplaced Pages is going to implode from a few jokes. -] (]) 20:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)Newyorkadam
:*It's unbecoming for an admin to be dismissive and rude like that. It's also unbecoming for an admin to delete a page simply because he or she doesn't like the page. ] '']''<small> (])</small> 20:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::*Actually I deleted them because it was disruptive not because I didn't like them. But then, since you haven't engaged with me to discuss my reasoning I guess its easier to use your super mindreading skill to make judgements about my motivations. I accept I could have used a better edit summary when I removed two MFD tags from live pages because they were also disruptive I'm still astonished that so much heat and light is being generated here over pretty much nothing. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 20:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::*When you unilaterally delete something because ''you'' deem it disruptive, you should expect to be held accountable for your actions. I don't mind that you removed MfD tags from live pages and that isn't the issue being here. The issue is that you may have overstepped the boundaries of your authority, especially in deleting TPH's user page (which is downright POINTy and probably more disruptive than the MfDs you deleted). ] '']''<small> (])</small> 20:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::*Is this level of condescension necessary, Spartaz? ] (]) 20:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== ] reverts to Austrian Economics Sanctions article – Request for sanctions ==

Background: This is regarding an edit made by ] in which a (contentious) edit was made while a discussion has been ongoing.
* There is an ArbCom case pending in which ] (and I) are parties. See: .
* The article in question (]) is subject to ]. Steeletrap has been notified of those sanctions. The article talk page has a General Sanctions notification template.
* The editors involved with this particular piece had, to greater or lesser extent, agreed to a ''voluntary'' IBAN/TBAN. ] did not agree to the IBAN/TBAN. The ban between Steeletrap & myself seems to be void. ] agreed to the IBAN/TBAN and seems to remains bound by the bans.
* Steeletrap has complained to an Admin about my edits. See: ] & ]. (No action was taken.)
Edits:
# At Steeletrap adds material about ].
# At ] reverts the edit.
# At I open a BRD on the particular edit, noting the sanctions and inviting discussion.
# At ] restores the material. (No participation in the BRD was undertaken by Specifico.)
# At I revert the edit and point out the specific talk page location for the BRD.
# The Steeletrap engages in the discussion, see: ]. Specifico also contributes.
# At Steeletrap restores the material.

I submit: The discussion has been on-going, but not all issues (particularly ]) have not been resolved. One of the interested editors (Carolmooredc) has not participated in the discussion (perhaps as per her voluntary IBAN/TBAN). There has been no RFC submitted on the edits. There has been no request for closure submitted. But, most importantly, there is no consensus for this BLP related edit. Accordingly, I submit that Steeletrap's restoration of the material violates the General Sanctions which pertain to this article and sanctions should be applied. – ] (]) 19:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Without regard to the merits or non merits of these edits I will note a very recent ANI discussion which pointed out ] says " However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." which would make the default action remove, until there is a positive consensus for inclusion. This is echoed in ] "To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first, and wherever possible disputed deletions should be discussed first with the administrator who deleted the article. Material that has been repaired to address concerns should be judged on a case-by-case basis." although that second policy bit appears to be written assuming the entire article was deleted, and not just a particular bit of content. Beyond that, with the sanctions on the page, it seems that this is an area where some level of enforcement may be needed. ] (]) 19:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


== Incivility, aspersions, ] from ] ==
:If three editors agree to an IBAN and violate it then the ANI should be about the resumption of disruptive editing, not a transplanted inappropriate content dispute at ANI. Take it to RSN or BLPN if you have genuine policy based concerns. Last I looked, Srich was changing his reasoning every time he posted, and the primary behavioral issue is not Steeletrap's content edit, which does not violate policy, but rather the Carolmoore's and Srich's violations of their IBAN given the sequence of events, I'm not sure but I think it is possible that Steeletrap also violated the IBAN. ]] 19:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


== Is '''sexy''' a bad word? ==


] is a few-month-old account whose area of greatest focus has been creating (and defending) two promotional pages for social media influencer-types: ] and ]. Cokeandbread has refused () to answer good-faith questions (, ) about whether they are operating as a paid editor ( to one of them with {{tq|Don't threaten me}}) and posted a copyvio to Commons (). Despite warnings (), the editor has been engaging in bludgeoning/disruptive behavior at the Jimmy Rex AfD (bludgeoning and attempting to !vote multiple times (, ) and has made uncivil remarks to other editors (, , ), while {{tq|respect}} in the other direction. Recently, Cokeandbread posted the following on their user page: {{tq|The way some people in AfD discussions move, you just know some people commenting are under demonic influence. Stay away from me and mine.}} (). Despite another warning (), which Cokeandbread removed when blanking their talk page (), this aspersion is still up. If we're at the point where an editor is accusing other editors of being demonically influenced, I think we're well into ] territory. Given the lack of response to non-admin warnings and requests, I'd ask for admin intervention here. ] (]) 23:34, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Whenever I write the word '''sexy''' in an article, someone keeps reverting my edit because of that word. Does that mean '''sexy''' is a naughty/bad/blacklisted word? ] (]) 20:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*You're absolutely right. Editors should not be accusing other editors of being demonically influenced. They should ]. ]] 00:04, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
*I concur, and have accordingly blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
*Do have to wonder what's going on with that AfD given several accounts with only few contributions, contributions which themselves seem questionable, have somehow found it. But that's probably a question for ] or something. ] (]) 02:28, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Suspicious indeed. There's ], although CheckUser did not confirm connections on the first batch of reported accounts. ] (]) 02:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
*:{{ec}} Actually see it's already been partly dealt with at ]. The geolocation point there is interesting, while I don't know what CUs are seeing it does seem likely given the other accounts wider interest these are editors from Nigeria which is another weird thing since there's nothing to suggest the subject is particularly known in Nigeria. ] (]) 02:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:37, 26 December 2024

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    Disruptive editing and WP:TALKNO by User:AnonMoos

    The main issue with this editor at the moment is disruptive editing based on continuous abuse of WP:TALKNO and failure to get the point. Issues began when this editor removed 5000+ bytes of sourced material. They did it again and again and again.

    Instead of starting a discussion on the talk page of the article, the user came to my talk page to let me know of their opinion of my contributions. When I started a discussion on the talk page of the relevant article, the user edited my signature and changed the heading of the discussion I started according to their POV. When I let them know that this was highly inappropriate according to WP:TALKNO, both in that discussion and on their talk page, they responded on my talk page stating ever since the stupid Misplaced Pages Dec. 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, to able to edit or view Misplaced Pages at all from my home computer, I have to use an indirect method which involves a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool. I couldn't even really see your signature that way, and so didn't know to try to avoid changing it, which I had never heard of. In any case, they kept reverting the content supported by the reliable source, they also kept attempting to apply their POV to the discussion heading again and again and again. I finally explained that I had sought a third opinion and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, and they went ahead and changed it again anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by إيان (talk • contribs) 15:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

    The other user in this case is User:AnonMoos? This looks like a content dispute over whether the article is on the English version of a German-Arabic dictionary or the dictionary itself. Secretlondon (talk) 15:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes the is indeed about User:AnonMoos. I see the content dispute as stemming from the fundamental conduct issue, which has manifested itself most egregiously with insisting on violating WP:TALKNO repeatedly even after I explained that I had sought a third opinion and that they should refrain from changing the heading again in order to preserve the integrity of the link, after which they went ahead and changed it again anyway. إيان (talk) 16:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    The heading dispute is between a date heading, and a descriptive heading? that's not really reformulating your entry. Secretlondon (talk) 17:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's a conduct issue. إيان (talk) 19:58, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    But what conduct issue? TALKNO doesn't forbid changing headings. In fact the wider guideline makes it clear it's perfectly acceptable "Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc. Whenever a change is likely to be controversial, avoid disputes by discussing a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible. It can also sometimes be appropriate to merge entire sections under one heading (often preserving the later one as a subheading) if their discussions are redundant." To be blunt, if you don't want editors changing the headings of sections you start, don't use such terrible headings. I definitely recommend you stay away from ANI since changing headings is quite common here. Nil Einne (talk) 06:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Actually I missed the signature issue. That's far more concerning unfortunately lost IMO partly because you concentrated on silly stuff. Nil Einne (talk) 06:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    ‎إيان: I suggest you stop messing around with the section heading since it's a distraction which could easily lead to you being blocked. But if AnonMoos changes your signature again, report it and only that without silliness about section headings, mentioning that they've been warned about it before if needed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    I wrote a long and detailed explanation on his user talk page as to why the date-only header is basically useless in that context, but he's still for some peculiar reason fanatically determined to keep changing it back. Frankly, I've basically run out of good-faith reasons that make any sense -- except of course, his apparently unshakable belief that he has certain talk-page "rights", which according to Misplaced Pages guidelines he does not in fact have (outside of his own personal user talk page)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

    @AnonMoos: I don't see a problem with changing the heading but why on earth did you change their signature multiple times ? That is indeed a clear violation of WP:TPOC since the signature was perfectly valid per WP:NLS. In fact your change was far worse since it changed a perfectly valid signature which would take other editors to the contributor's talk page and user page into an invalid one which lead no where. If you're using some sort of plugin which does that, it's your responsibility to manage it better so it doesn't do that ever again especially if you're going to edit talk pages where it might be common. If you're doing that intentionally, I suggest you cut it out or expect to be indeffed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:48, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    User:AnonMoos, this is not good to see. Don't rewrite or reformat other editor's signatures. There is no reason to be doing this unless you are trying to provoke the other editor. Liz 07:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    For what it's worth, AnonMoos stated earlier that the changing of the signature was a unintentional technical issue, due to his use of some "non-standard tool" in accessing the internet . This seems plausible, as similar apparently unintentional changes to non-Ascii character data have happened in edits of his before (e.g. ). But if he knew of this issue, it's rather disappointing he let it happen again some days later . Equally disappointing is the extremely aggressive rhetoric and acerbic tone with which he has been escalating this essentially harmless, good-faith content dispute from the beginning. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    I just can't fathom what tool they're using to get around the HTTPS requirement to edit Misplaced Pages securely. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    Should be impossible as it's required to even access the site in the first place according to WP:SECLakesideMiners 16:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Looking at his talk page it's been going back to at least 2011LakesideMiners 16:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Guys, I do not deliberately set out to modify signatures, and when it happens, I am not usually aware of doing so. As I've already explained before in several places, since the December 2019 encryption protocol upgrade (NOT 2011!), the only way I can edit (or view) Misplaced Pages at all from home is by an indirect method which is not fully Unicode-compliant. To change this, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection, which would permanently disconnect my older computer, which I still use almost every day.
    Meanwhile, this thread has been set up so I can't add a comment to it from home without affecting Unicode characters, so I was unable to reply here for 36 hours or so. If I'm silent in the future, it will be for the same reason. AnonMoos (talk) 01:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Misplaced Pages uses Unicode characters (UTF-8 encoding). Anyone who cannot edit without corrupting such characters should not edit. Johnuniq (talk) 03:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Whatever, -- I was using them perfectly fine until December 2019, and still use them perfectly fine on public WiFi, but in December 2019 a requirement was imposed that you can't access Misplaced Pages at all unless you can handle encryption algorithms and protocols that weren't introduced until the mid-2010s. I have a 2012 web browser on my home computer that handles UTF-8 just fine, but 2012 simply wasn't good enough for the Misplaced Pages developers -- you had to have software that was almost up to date as of 2019, or you would be abruptly totally cut off. If you can drag up the relevant archive of Village Pump Technical, I and others complained at the time, but our concerns were not listened to or considered in any way. The basic attitude of the developers was that if you weren't running almost up-to-date software, then screw you, and if your computer is not capable of running almost up-to-date software, then double screw you! The change was announced for January 2020, but was actually implemented in mid-December 2019, apparently because they were so eager and anxious to start excluding people. It wasn't one of Misplaced Pages's finer moments. Since that time, I have had to use an indirect method to access Misplaced Pages from my home computer, and I don't feel particularly guilty about it (other people's obnoxious behaviors in 2019 have done away with most of the guilt I might feel)... AnonMoos (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    ...HTTPS was created in 1994, and became an official specification in 2000, not "mid-2010s". I'm not sure what 2012 web browser you're using, but if it's not able to handle HTTPS not being able to access Misplaced Pages with it is the least of your browsing concerns, given that 85-95% of the World Wide Web defaults to it now. Also I hate to think of how many security holes your ancient computer has. I'm going to be honest: with a brower setup that old it isn't safe for you to be on the web at all, and the security hole that lets you access Misplaced Pages without using a secure connection should be fixed, because that is not working as intended and is - as mentioned - a security hole. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    You unfortunately don't know what you're talking about. New ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL METHODS have been introduced within HTTPS from time to time. I was using HTTPS perfectly happily until December 2019, when the developers arbitrarily ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    And even leaving that aside, as Johnuniq mentions - if you can't edit without corrupting Unicode characters, and by your own admission you don't know when it happens, you shouldn't be editing. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is probably a reference to when Misplaced Pages started requiring TLS 1.2 (because earlier versions were deprecated). Anyone who was/is still on Windows XP at that point couldn't connect any more. MrOllie (talk) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not talking about when the update happening, I'm talking about how you have known about this issue, and have been getting complainants about it since 2011and are still not taking any steps to do anything about it. What kind of internet connection would not support your PC? What on earth are you even using? Dial-Up? Because that still is supported by even Windows 10. LakesideMiners 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    :::Also, how did you see me saying "this has happened since 2011" as me saying that the update happened in 2011? Can you clarify. LakesideMiners 03:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    The problem didn't start in 2011, and I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention 2011. The problem started in December 2019 when the developers arbitrarily imposed new ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS... AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Apologies. I was extremely tired when I wrote both above. I have striken the date parts. Rest of my comments still stand. LakesideMiners 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    None of this matters

    I don't care what tool this guy uses or what his excuse is. If he can't edit without screwing up people's sigs, then he must not edit. AnonMoos shouls consider himself on notice now that if one of his edits messes stuff up one more time, he'll be blocked until he can give assurance that he's come into the 21st century. EEng 18:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    That's nice -- and also totally inaccurate. I was in the 21st century, and using 2012 tools, up until December 2019, when the developers pitchforked me backwards by arbitrarily imposing HTTPS ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS which my home computer hardware is not able to run. Notice that I had no problem complying with character-set handling -- the problem is with arbitrary ENCRYPTION ALGORITHM AND PROTOCOL REQUIREMENTS. AnonMoos (talk) 00:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The century imagery is irrelevant. You have been warned. EEng 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    That was six years ago, which is IMO about 3-4 years too long to keep using it as an excuse. Technology changes over time, so whatever this non-standard thing you think you need to do to edit here, it may be time to make a choice. Zaathras (talk) 00:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    As I said, to fix the problem, I would have to get a completely different type of Internet connection which would permanently disconnect my old computer, which I still use almost every single day. I would basically have to change my workflow and overall habits/methods of working because of an arbitrary decision by Misplaced Pages developers about encryption protocol updates. Anyway, when editing through public WiFi, I'm 100% Unicode compliant, and by exercising a little prudence, I can also avoid most problems when working from home. If I was constantly mangling Unicode right and left, there would have been a chorus of complaints long before now. But occasionally I can't anticipate a problem... AnonMoos (talk) 01:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    And just to say for the third time: you're out of chances. "Occassionally" is too often. Once more is too often. And if and when that happens, your attitude of entitlement displayed here will pretty much ensure an indefinite block. EEng 03:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Think it's time to draft up a formal proposal at this point? LakesideMiners 18:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't think that's necessary. The key isn't formally deciding the criterion for blocking (because that's obvious to everyone) but rather detecting the next incident. Best way to do that for everyone gathered here to watchlist User talk:AnonMoos. Sooner or later, futher trouble will show up there. EEng 21:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If you have DSL or even DialUp. That still works with modern machines. LakesideMiners 01:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Heck, I am on DSL (and have been since, if I recall right, 2008). I have no idea what sort of ancient Internet connection AnonMoos is claiming to be using, but it's clearly one that was already obsolete before this change he's still up in arms about six years later was made. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not to mention it would STILL be supported these days. It's literally right there when you click wifi/network settings in Windows 10. LakesideMiners 18:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • The response by AnonMoos to feedback about this problem is bizarre. I don't really care what the excuse or the history behind it. If you are unwilling to edit Misplaced Pages using tools that work in 2024 then you should stop editing. The behavior is completely unnecessary and it seems like you don't understand the disruption. Nemov (talk) 14:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • AnonMoos hasn't really explained in any detail what their technical limitations are. They don't have to, but we can't really give advice otherwise. If as others have suggested their computer can't negotiate TLS 1.2, I'm surprised that they're able to use any websites at all from that computer. Requiring TLS 1.2 is not controversial; Misplaced Pages wasn't doing anything unusual in dropping TLS 1.0/1.1 around that time. Mackensen (talk) 15:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • If it's that much of a problem for his computer, go and buy a new computer. It would certainly be better than whining about how Misplaced Pages broke his ability to edit without screwing things up for other users.Insanityclown1 (talk) 07:06, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Meh. None of this matters. Signatures sometimes get accidentally fucked up. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum, and this signature thing is not a real disruption to the creation of encyclopedic content. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 07:21, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    While true, it's still a violation of WP:TPO, and if it's accidentally changing characters in signatures, who knows what else it might be doing that isn't getting caught or reported? - The Bushranger One ping only 07:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    It is safe to assume there more than a few of the editors taking part in this discussion have years and decades of technological experience under their belts, myself included. I do not think The Accused is straight-up lying about the technical hurdle, but clinging to the "I refuse to change my system of operation, therefore it's Misplaced Pages's fault for (6 years ago) making the change!" excuse is the real problem here - this is at the heart a behavioral discussion, not a technical one. Consistently violating the norms of the community is indeed a real disruption to the creation of encyclopedic content. Zaathras (talk) 16:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's not inherently about the signatures. It's that he's stubbornly insisting on using an outdated system that introduces errors into other content. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    agree on this. Incidental changing of signayures due to the tech issue is not a small problem itself but that clearly has potential to impact a much wider range of mainspace content. I have a hard time believing that there is not a browser that supports https and can run on a decade old computer (something like Opera even). Claiming inability to switch or upgrade needs to be explained in detail or otherwise this has potential to be a bigger problem. Masem (t) 17:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    Disruptive editing by User talk:185.146.112.192

    IP blocked 24 hours, and then kept digging and created an account to evade the block, which has now been indef'd. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The User talk:185.146.112.192 is engaging in disrupte editing. Neither does this IP provide sources and is POV pushing. And this IP has been warned multiple times for this on his/her talk page.

    Moroike (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Moroike: It looks like you both are edit warring on Kichik Bazar Mosque. That's not particularly helpful, so you should try to have a discussion on the article talk page as to whether you should include the Talysh language name for the article in the lead/infobox. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 20:33, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    MJL why and how did you pick out that one article over the many this IP has made recent changes to? The IP has been making disputed edits for months and has been reverted by a number of editors, not just Moroike. CMD (talk) 01:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @CMD: I am not suggesting that the IP editor isn't being disruptive, but my point is that Moroike isn't making the situation better (using the example of that one article). You can see this by looking at their last 50 contributions where they have mostly just reverted this editor without using a summary. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 18:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The IP's edits were removed a total of 13 times on the page regarding the capital city of Azerbaijan, Baku. You can't let him continue engaging in further edit wars with other users besides Moroike, can you? Nuritae331 (talk) 17:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Since this IP user won't stop and is stonewalling, either he/should be temporarily blocked, or all the pages he is POV pushing without sources, should be semi-protected, so that only registered users can edit them. Moroike (talk) 21:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    After he/she was blocked for 24 hours, this IP created an account as User talk:Ibish Agayev in order to evade the block and has resumed his/her POV pushing. Moroike (talk) 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Creating the need to make 400,000 unnecessary edits

    Can we please dp something about editors who make unnecessary changes to widely-used modules, and then need to change 400,000 talk pages to get the same result we had before the change? Thanks to this change from last week, which removed the parameter "living" from the bannershell, we now have more than 400,000 pages in Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell with unknown parameters. After the "cleanup" by User:Tom.Reding (and perhaps others), we will have the exact same result as we had last week, no new functionality, no new categories, no improvement at all, but a lot of flooded watchlists.

    I tried to get him to stop at User talk:Tom.Reding#Cosmetic edits, to no avail. This isn't the first time, as you can see from that discussion. Fram (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

    If you want to discuss {{WikiProject banner shell}}, you should do so at Template talk:WikiProject banner shell.
    As for the size of the category, I have no plans to empty it, and was only going to update a few hundred more categories and templates.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    You made nearly 2000 of such edits in the last few hours, and when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries. I have no way to know how many more you planned now or in future runs. Starting a discussion at the module would hardly stop you. Fram (talk) 15:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    "when asked to stop pointed me to a category with 400,000 entries": incorrect. Since you wrongly thought I was making cosmetic edits, i.e. "no change in output or categories", the category was to inform you that they are not cosmetic.
    Regarding a BRFA for the bulk of the category, that's looking more likely since the category appears to be neglected.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Unnecessary removing a synonym and then making thousands of edits to remove the hidden cat created by that unnecessary change is not really any better than making cosmetic edits, the end result is that nothing has changed for the affected pages at all. Fram (talk) 15:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not unnecessary. The Lua code is very complex and removing the need the support various settings makes the code both easier to read and maintain. As always, editors that don't want to see these edits can hide these by hiding the tag "talk banner shell conversion". Gonnym (talk) 12:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    It doesn´t look as if the specific code to have these synonyms was very complicated though, the argument that in some cases two synonyms were used on one page with conflicting values was more convincing. And the edits I complained about did not have that tag, so no, even if people knew about hiding that tag, it wouldn't have helped here at all. Fram (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This was discussed in detail on Template talk:WikiProject banner shell. Ideally these edits would be done by an approved bot so they do not appear on people's watchlists. The main benefit is to merge the |blp= and |living= parameters. When both are in use, we find they often get conflicting values because one gets updated and the other does not. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Isn't it more logical to first have a bot cleanup the unwanted parameter, then remove it from the template, and only then start populating the cat with the somehow remaining or since added instances? In any case, this is a typical bot task and shouldn't be done with massive AWB runs. Fram (talk) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, probably. But we have this mechanism already set up and I assumed Cewbot would deal with these as part of its normal activities. Happy to look at other options - maybe discuss on template talk? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't know what this is about, but if the OP is correct, it is totally absurd to edit 400,000 talk pages for a tweak. Discussing at a template talk page monitored by those focused on the template would simply hide the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    Edits like these should always be bots, so they can be filtered from watchlists. There are numerous other editors who have recently engaged in the mass additional of categories to articles which I had to ask them to stop as my watchlist was flooded. GiantSnowman 13:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Hiding bot edits from watchlists is not a viable option for many editors, since it also hides any non-bot edits that predate the bot edit (phab:T11790, 2007, unassigned). Users AnomieBOT, Cluebot III, Lowercase sigmabot III, Citation bot, et al edit with such high frequency that hiding their edits leads to an unacceptable proportion of watchlist items not appearing. (Also, Citation bot's edits should usually be reviewed, since it has a non-negligible error rate and its activators typically don't review its output, exceptions noted.)The code for maintaining two aliases for one parameter cannot possibly be so complex as to warrant a half million edits. If one of the two "must" undergo deprecation, bundle it into Cewbot's task. If the values don't match, have the banner shell template populate a mismatch category.In general, if a decision is made to start treating as an error some phenomenon that has previously not been a problem, and that decision generates a maintenance category with tens or hundreds of thousands of members, it is a bad decision and the characterisation of the phenomenon as "erroneous" should be reversed.At minimum, any newly instanced maintenance task scoped to over a hundred thousand pages should come before the community for approval at a central venue. Folly Mox (talk) 15:19, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Also, like, if only one of |blp= and |living= gets updated, shouldn't the net result be pretty obvious? Valid updates should really only go one direction. Folly Mox (talk) 15:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Meanwhile, the category has grown to over 800,000 pages. Perhaps next time an RfC to determine whether creating such a large cleanup task is warranted, would be better? Fram (talk) 16:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Fram: this is logical. We should also make it a policy (or at least a guideline), something along the lines "if change would lead to edits/updating more than XYZ pages, a consensus should be achieved on a venue with a lot of visibility". Like Silver seren mentioned above, sometimes a formal consensus/discussion takes place, but it happens on obscure talk pages. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:ZanderAlbatraz1145 Civility and Content #2

    This user has engaged in a lengthy display of disruption. Namely through incessant incivility I have noticed they were previously reported for.

    Instances such as ordering IP editors to stop editing articles, hostilely chastising them, making personal attacks in edit summary on several occasions, etc. Users such as @Waxworker: and @Jon698: can speak to their experiences, I'll outline mine.

    On December 10, I noticed on the article Luca Guadagnino's unrealized projects page several additions were made that didn't adhere to the article's purpose. Zander restored these with an introductory summary rife with bad faith assertions about my intelligence and asserting they'd engage in edit war behavior. For the most part there was an attempt to discuss the issue we had, but ultimately did not see eye to eye. I asserted I'd be escalating the issue to garner more substantive dialogue around it, Zander's response includes a needless "bite me". I made some attempts at engaging the topic at the article's talk page, in addition to WikiProject Film, it was over a week that saw no input. I would go on to state that (at the time) in two days, I would restore the page to it's status quo. I would do so, asking it not to be reverted. Zander reverted anyway, and after another terse interaction, I moved to nominate the article for deletion, finding with the conflicting views of what Unrealized meant, it was too open ended and led to these lists being essentially trivia. Since then, Zander has elected to take an antagonistic approach towards me, making swipes they openly admit add nothing to the discussion threads they're added to, and now that I am putting said comments behind collapsable tables for being offtopic, Zander is now doing the editing equivalent of mockingly repeating me, with edits such as this and this.

    This editor displays no interest in conducting themselves cordially or cooperatively on this website. Rusted AutoParts 23:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

    I've given them a warning for canvassing: - The Bushranger One ping only 04:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And more personal attacks here - The Bushranger One ping only 05:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And they appear to be continuing editing while ignoring here. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This feels par for the course for Zander frankly. As noted with the bit about Zander reverting after an explicit edit summary saying not to and there being two days worth of me saying that edit would be made and they made no objections until the move was made. They disengaged from discussion but only re-engaged when the situation changed to their disliking. Rusted AutoParts 02:07, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    SPA User:Tikitorch2 back at it on Martin Kulldorff

    Hi, all, I'd like some assistance with the SPA User:Tikitorch2, who's been POV pushing on the Martin Kulldorff article since June. A quick view of their extremely short edit history shows that their sole focus is on pushing a vaccine-denialist POV on that and similar COVID-related topics. Started out on the talk page and BLPN, but now they've graduated to edit-warring on the article itself; they were active in June, made a single related edit in October, but now they appear to be back at it. They've already been notified about the CTOP status of COVID-19, and have received an edit-warring warning--to which they were less than receptive. Would appreciate a more permanent resolution, either a COVID-19 topic ban or just an indef considering their SPA status, so they don't just go back into hibernation and then turn up again like a bad penny. (And yeah, given this context, I don't love the implications of the username "Tikitorch2", either.) Thanks, Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Michael.C.Wright? 173.22.12.194 (talk) 06:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
     Looks like a duck to me. I'm sending this to SPI. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    SPI says unrelated, so might just be generic disruption. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    What are you implying with regard to my username? My edit history has been limited to trying to correct two red flags that stood out so much that I followed the citations when I was searching these scientists who were in the news for censorship. It has been enlightening learning how wikipedia selectively chooses secondary sources but discourages the use of primary sources to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible.
    For my two attempted contributions to Misplaced Pages, the two red flags were pretty dramatic to prompt me to check out the citations--Sunetra Gupta's article implied more than 1 in 1000 people in England died from Covid in spring 2020 in an effort to discredit her, which was trivially easy to google as untrue. I corrected that without really changing the overall narrative. The article for Martin Kulldorff...I would probably not have spent time looking at the sources or realized how unscientific Kulldorff's critics were had there not been such superfluous "Wikivoice" editorializing and synthesizing suggesting Kulldorff lied in an essay to the public. Tikitorch2 (talk) 06:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Primary sources are not to be used for anything but simple facts about a subject. They absolutely are not to be used to help discriminate which secondary sources are credible because that is original research. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said. Maybe I am the sock puppeteer! Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    What I am implying is that such a username in the context of an account pushing COVID-denialist rhetoric that flies in the face of the sources and Misplaced Pages policy is not an accident. Anyway, this editor continues to be a drain of editor time and attention. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Ah an absurd, convoluted, and contrived personal attack. Assuming anyone but you knew tiki torches were present at a political event where someone was killed, why would I choose my username based on that? Tikitorches provide light, warmth, and keep the mosquitos away. I guess its not surprising an editor named writ keeper attacks the editor rather than effectively debating the subject of the edit. Tikitorch2 (talk) 03:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Even if it was a personal attack, making one back isn't going to fly here. Knock it off. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    User:Tikitorch2, your edits are being examined at ANI. This is not a pleasant experience, I'll admit. So, it's best for you not to dig yourself into a hole. I know the instinct is to defend yourself but it doesn't help your situation to come out swinging. It's probably to your benefit to address any concerns that have been raised and say no more than that. Liz 04:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Disruptive editor on When the Pawn...

    User User:Longislandtea has repeatedly removed reliably sourced refs to the genres infobox by removing alternative pop simply because they don't believe it to be correct as the ref is "new" and that the artist isn't that genre. I had sent them two warnings now and also explained that's not how this works, so they decided to add more genres with refs that don't even mention the genres they included. I do not believe this editor is going to cooperate. Pillowdelight (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Pillowdelight changed the genre list of When the Pawn... which originally had been a variation of certain genres: Art pop, jazz rock, art rock, alternative rock, jazz pop, chamber pop, all of which are somewhat accurate and agreed upon by various editors of this page over many years. It was changed to just Alt pop, a genre that is used to describe the newer sounds of pop in the early 2010s with Lorde, Sky Ferreira and Lana del rey. It is not a genre that fits the album hence it has never before user:Pillowdelight been described as such beyond what her poor source says, a Fiona Apple revisit (that is not even about When the pawn.. specifically) from a new, small and virtually unheard of web magazine. Sources such as Rateyourmusic, allmusic and Pitchfork are far more accurate and robust and that's why this album has never been described as alt pop. That genre did not exist at the time of the release of the album. The source needs to be accurate, it is not. It's not an album review, it is a fluff article about Fiona Apple by a small web magazine. It's not even about When the pawn... specifically, it makes no sense. I think the other editors agree, it is inaccurate.
    Allmusic and pitchfork are far better sources. I have added both as sources. I didn't change the genre list, I simply changed it back to the genre list that had stood there the longest before user:Pillowdelight changed it a few months ago for the first time, having never touched this page before yet complaining about other editors. Longislandtea (talk) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Longislandtea: I removed the genres because they're unsourced, which I stated in many edit summaries you keep reverting, as well as on your talk page. It doesn't matter that just because you believe a source another user added calling the album alternative pop is incorrect and unreliable because it's "new, small and virtually unheard of" is a ridiculously excuse. Read Template:Infobox album it states — genres must be stated and referenced in the body of the article; personal opinions or original research must not be included. The sources you have added specifically from Pitchfork don't state the genres you've listed. Pillowdelight (talk) 20:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Sources need to be legitimate and relevant. Your source is not relevant and it is disputed. Pitchfork is added because they describe the album as an alternative album several times in the review and the genre category is ROCK. What is alternative and rock? Alternative rock. That is how the album was marketed. You can't cherrypick a single article to make a case for a genre that the album absolutely is not in. I will remove the Pitchfork source, that's fine. There's numerous ones including from Allmusic that clearly state that it is an alternative rock album. The album was even added to Misplaced Pages's page for alt rock albums ages ago. This is very uncontroversial. Just having alternative rock is also lacking; jazz fusion, art pop (the album is already added on the wikipedia page for art pop albums) and art rock are accurate too and have been there for ages but alas! Let's get rid of it all to only serve your opinion. Numerous albums have unsourced genres might I add, but the vast of amount of editors agree to it because they know these accurately describe the album, these are the scenes that the album and artist comes from and sourcing for genres can often times be lacking. In that case, rather than trying to look for BAD sources, it's better to agree with the consensus. In our case, we do have sources. Rateyourmusic has been used as a source for adding art pop, alternative rock, jazz pop, fusion, art rock and chamber pop as genres before. Longislandtea (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here's the page for what is considered acceptable sources Misplaced Pages:Acceptable sources (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs).
    Relevance. Sources must be relevant--there must be some reason for the reader to care about what the author has to say. For example, the opinion of a random individual on the presidency of George W. Bush, as published in a letter to the editor of a major newspaper, is not relevant; and thus should not be included--even though it is published, traceable to its author, and given in a reputable publication. Relevance can be imputed several ways--through explicit personal knowledge, through subject-matter authority, through general notability of the author, through demonstrable correlation with the opinion(s) of a large group of people, etc.
    A large group of people, the editors of When the Pawn...'s page throughout the years, thousands of people on music reviewing sites and numerous music journalists from legitimate publications do not agree with what this one article you cherrypicked states.
    Note that this policy is the minimum standard for inclusion as a reference in Misplaced Pages. Sources may meet this standard and still not be authoritative, reliable, accurate, free from bias, or undisputed. Sources which meet this minimum standard but which fail to meet stricter standards may be used, but should be used with caution. In particular, such sources should be explicitly attributed to their author(s) or publisher(s) in an article's prose (rather than being presented as fact with the author only given in the notes), and disputes considering the source's veracity should be described.
    Meaning you can't just add any genre because some random source says it when it goes against larger and more reliable sources as well as it is controversial.
    Thank you and please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. Longislandtea (talk) 21:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:NOTVAND. Note that accusing editors of vandalism when they are not, in fact, vandalising can be considered a personal attack, so I'd suggest you strike that comment. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Okay, I strike. Longislandtea (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    You didn't actually strike any comments. To do so, do this <s>Comment</s> which will make it look like this Comment. Liz 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    please stop vandalizing pages on topics of music you do not understand. Longislandtea (talk) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Longislandtea: How is the source considered not relevant and where was this dispute? AllMusic does not call the album alternative rock at all within its article. Rate Your Music is also not a source it's user generated which is against Misplaced Pages. I really wish an admin would comment on this because this is getting absolutely nowhere. Pillowdelight (talk) 21:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here's another source describing it as an alternative rock and jazz fusion album
    https://www.the-solute.com/the-solute-record-club-fiona-apple-when-the-pawn/
    Alt pop is not accurate. If you're so adamant about alt pop, please argue why. It is completely inaccurate and you have one singular source over music journalists and music sites. Allmusic does categorize it as alternative rock, Pitchfork has categorized it as rock since 1999 of its release. There was NO Alt-pop at the time. It still isn't. These are different genres. Art pop is not Alt pop. You edited the page one time in October 2024 only to get rid of the genre list that editors agreed upon to add Alt pop which makes no sense whatsoever. Longislandtea (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have now added a new source to the genre list. If you have any problems with the new source, tell me. But it's much more accurate this way. It's still sad to see the whole genre list that was originally there, so much more descriptive and fitting, hacked away but oh well. Longislandtea (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Pitchfork's categorizations mean basically nothing. They have ten categories, one of which is "Pop/R&B", and another of which is "Global". By the way, you should just stop caring about this, because sources misclassify genres of music chronically and everywhere you look. Take your passion to RateYourMusic. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    All of this discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page (which neither editor has used). Schazjmd (talk) 21:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Schazjmd: I'm awaiting for an admin to respond. This conversation is getting nowhere hence the reason why I brought it here in the first place. I've tried to explain to the user on their talk page along with this entire thread and it's getting nowhere. @The Bushranger: you left a comment but could you please share your opinion on the dispute? Or possibly ping an admin who's familiar with music if this isn't your area of familiarity? Pillowdelight (talk) 21:49, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    There was no reason to bring this conversation here. I talked to you directly but go no real reply or any arguments despite adding sources and explaining why it's not an Alt pop album. I've explained to you well enough. Please stop trying to get admins to ban me simply because I (and other editors) recognize that the genre list that you got rid of was far more fitting. There's a new genre list now with sources but it is not Alt-pop. The album was already added to the wikipedia album pages for Alternative rock and art pop. I'm familiar with these genres and Fiona Apple specifically to know that it's accurate hence why the genre list has been that way for years. If you're adamant about sources, there is a source. Accusing me of not sourcing should be considered a false accusation at this point. Not all sources are equal either and I've tried explaining that to you. Longislandtea (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Pillowdelight, you were given good advice which is to have this discussion on the article talk page which neither editor has posted at yet. This is a content dispute. If no action has been taken yet by an administrator, it's likely because they don't agree with your statement that action needs to be taken. Liz 22:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Okay, will do. Thank you Liz. Pillowdelight (talk) 22:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    Irrelevant sources and unnecessary changes to genre list on When the Pawn... (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

    On October 22 2024, User:Pillowdelight (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) changed the genre list that has stood in place for years and has been a variation of the same variety of genres: Art pop, art rock, jazz, alternative rock, jazz rock, chamber pop and jazz pop. Across the biggest music sites, this is what the album is described as. The user changed it to Alt pop using a single irrelevant and unreliable source. The album is not described as such anywhere else. The user is going against the general consensus. Sources have now been added to the genre list and I don't feel as though that would mean I'm breaking any rules. The user is threatening to get another editor banned because they're uncooperative with how us other editors feel the genre list should look like. It's an album that has been categorized as rock by Pitchfork at the time of its release and was added to rock charts when released too. Here's how the genre list has looked over a long period of time, without much controversy from editors not readers: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1178937091 from 2023

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=When_the_Pawn...&oldid=1049316366 from 2021

    Thank you. Longislandtea (talk) 19:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

    Why do people have to argue about what genre music is rather than just listening to it, and hopefully enjoying it? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    The genre list was fine and accurate and uncontroversial until this user decided to remove the entire thing. It's important that the genre list is accurate. People find albums through genres. There's other reasons as well. Longislandtea (talk) 20:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is neither here nor there, but I thought albums are generally sorted in alphabetical order by band name or the musician's last name.
    Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or my information is incomplete. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 22:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    I was trying to explain the important of listing genres accurately. If you go to a record store then yes, albums are listed in alphabetical order. But they're still put in categories of genres. Longislandtea (talk) 22:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    If we were going to list musical genres "accurately," we wouldn't bother at all. Except in very broad strokes ("rock," "punk," "Baroque," etc), so many of these horribly subjective "genres" are made up by bored media writers and bands that hate the notion of being The Same As Everyone Else. Get ten people to listen to ten different tracks of heavy metal, and you won't get as many as a third of them agreeing on any of them on the doom/grudge/dark/death/Goth/Viking/sludge/*-grind/*-core/etc etc etc spectrum. Beyond that, arguing whether any given artist is "that genre" is very highly subjective. (Hell, I've sung Baroque, classical, folk, rock, ethnic, shape note, so many genres I can't readily count.) Ravenswing 15:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Multiple users breaking 3RR on Gilman School article

    Two users are actively engaged in an ongoing edit war on Gilman School, with both Counterfeit_Purses (talk · contribs · logs · block log) breaking 3RR 1, 2, 3, 4 and Statistical_Infighting (talk · contribs · logs · block log) being right at 3 Reverts 1, 2, 3.

    This seems to go back to December 9th, with the first editor (Counterfeit) removing it here and here, again on the 17th, 18th, and then being at the above today.

    Awshort (talk)

    Counterfeit Purses, please be aware that the Luigi Mangione article was kept in a recent Articles for Deletion debate, so the consensus of the community is that he is notable. Edit warring to keep his name off the alumni list is a really bad idea. Cullen328 (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Cullen328 No problem, I've already given up. I would argue that WP:NOTNEWS applies here, but there's no sense in pushing against the tide. If you're content to have the lede section of Gilman School include "prominent graduates including "alleged murderer Luigi Mangione", I guess that's fine. It seems to be an unusual thing to include and an obvious case of undue weight given to something that is in the news at the moment. Perhaps someone should start a Wikiproject to add famous murderers to the ledes of other schools? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 22:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Counterfeit Purses, in my view, WP:NOTNEWS is among our most misunderstood policy documents. It begins In principle, all Misplaced Pages articles should contain up-to-date information. Editors are also encouraged to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events. I believe that Mangione is notable, the evolving article is acceptable, and his name belongs in the alumni list. Many, many "bad people" are listed as alumni in countless school articles, and it is not at all unusual. The only unusual thing here is that the lead of this particular school article lists alumni, and so I have removed them from the lead. Cullen328 (talk) 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm glad that misunderstanding WP:NOTNEWS is so common because I am going to continue to misunderstand it. I see that Liz removed Luigi Mangione from the lede before you removed the rest of the list. Acknowledging again that I have given up hope that Mangione will be removed from this article, let me ask you what you think the purpose of these alumni lists is? Including Mangione is an editorial decision. We don't include all notable alumni in these lists, so why should we include Mangione, and why now? It's too soon to know if he will have lasting relevance. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    We don't include all notable alumni in these lists Why not? If someone is Wikinotable and went to a Wikinotable school, then they belong in the "Notable alumni" section of that school's page, Q.E.D. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    @The Bushranger I'm not saying "we shouldn't", I'm saying "we don't". We don't include every notable alumnus in these lists, nor should we because it would lead to long, unhelpful lists stuck in the middle of articles about the schools. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 04:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    If an alumni list bloats an article, it can be split out. See Category:Lists of people by school affiliation. 11:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC) (Oops, signing) Narky Blert (talk) 16:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of course that's always an option, but what I am saying is that it isn't desirable to have every alumnus listed in an article for a school. Ideally, it would be a selection of alumni who have made significant achievements in their field. Otherwise, it's just trivia. Am I wrong? Counterfeit Purses (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes. You're making a value judgment that some alumni (with articles, else they most definitely should not be included) are more notable than others. That is WP:OR. Narky Blert (talk) 20:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, that's called editorial judgment. Just like deciding not to include every known fact about something in an article. At some point, it is just trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a database. That info would probably be welcome over on Wikidata, which is a database. Alternatively, someone could just add Category:Gilman School alumni (in this case). Counterfeit Purses (talk) 20:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    And a new user, who doesn't understand categories and has no idea Wikidata exists, is relying on the list on the page. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Glenn103

    Glenn103 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been mass creating unsourced stubs about Cyrillic letters, most of which have been draftified. They've also disruptively edited in the past, such as: ''']''' (talk • contribs) 01:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Most of these pages don't even make any sense (eg.: Draft:Yery with tilde). The user also ignores any notice about his articles being moved to draftspace by simply recreating duplicates of them (eg.: Draft:Tse with caron & Tse with caron). Immediate action may be needed. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 07:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Given a uw-create4im with directions to come here, let's see what happens. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    They've continued editing, this time adding infoboxes to the articles, so I don't think the warning worked... ''']''' (talk • contribs) 08:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have blocked them from article space and page moves, and will leave note on talk page to come here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 15:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Honestly, this almost feels like trolling. Their basic procedure seems to be: pick a random Cyrillic letter. Combine it with a random diacritic. Write a short stub on the combination, saying effectively "this letter combination is not used anywhere." The occasional historical mentions ("this combination was used in such-and-such obscure Siberian language") are completely unsourced, of course. (Everything is unsourced.) Oddwood (talk) 04:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Excuse me for detracting from the report, but this was your 4th edit, your last edit was in January 2016... how have you found yourself here of all places?
    I mean you might have a point, but wow. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 04:57, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Similar behavior to PickleMan500 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) and other socks puppeted by Abrown1019 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki), which also made tons of drafts on Cyrillic characters that cited few sources (and none with in-depth coverage). Most drafts have been WP:G5'd, of course, so only those with admin perms can verify the deleted contribs. Since these socks have been banned (WP:3X), I haven't notified them of this discussion. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Good catch, and looking at the contribution histories it  Looks like a duck to me. Changing the block to indef as a sock accordingly. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    North Korean involvement in Russian-Ukraine war discussion

    The inclusion of North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox for the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" article has been a point of extensive and protracted discussion since September. A formal Request for Comment (RfC) on this matter ran for several weeks and was closed with a clear consensus to include North Korea as a combatant based on reliable sources and expert analysis. However, despite the closure, the discussion has continued unabated across multiple threads, with certain editors repeatedly rehashing resolved points and questioning the validity of reliable sources, leading to significant disruption.

    Key Points:

    1. Prolonged Discussions and RfC Closure:
      • The RfC on North Korea's inclusion was conducted thoroughly, with a wide range of arguments presented by both sides.
      • The closing administrator, S Marshall, determined there was a clear consensus to include North Korea as a belligerent based on reliable sources and the strength of arguments.
      • The close explicitly allowed for reevaluation if new battlefield events or sources emerged, but no substantial new evidence has invalidated the prior consensus.
    2. Ongoing Disruption:
      • Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editors.
      • This behavior includes undermining reliable sources, misrepresenting their content, and insisting on a higher standard of verification (e.g., requiring firsthand evidence of North Korean combat, which is unreasonable given the context).
    3. Reliable Sources Confirming North Korean Involvement:
      • Multiple reputable outlets, including the BBC, Reuters, and Pentagon statements, confirm North Korean military involvement and casualties in the conflict.
      • Experts from institutions like Chatham House and RUSI have explicitly stated North Korea's role in combat, aligning with the community's decision.
    4. Impact on the Community:
      • The continued disruption consumes editor time and resources, detracting from the article's improvement.
      • These actions disregard Misplaced Pages's consensus-building principles and guidelines for resolving disputes. This dispute has been ongoing for months, with multiple threads being opened and closed on the same topic.

    Request for Administrative Action:

    I respectfully request that administrators address the following issues:

    1. Enforce the consensus reached in the closed RfC, as no new evidence significantly alters the previous conclusions.
    2. Discourage editors from rehashing resolved discussions, particularly when arguments have been repeatedly addressed and dismissed.
    3. Consider imposing a topic ban or other appropriate measures on editors who persist in disrupting the article with repetitive or bad-faith arguments.

    This matter has been discussed exhaustively, and it is essential to prioritize Misplaced Pages's goals of maintaining a high-quality, well-sourced, and consensus-driven encyclopedia. Thank you for your attention to this matter. UPDATE: I just noticed that North Korea was removed as a belligerent and added to the 'supported by' section, completely violating the consensus. Rc2barrington (talk) 08:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Since this report isn't really about an incident and your request is directed towards admins, I think this complaint would be better placed at WP:AN rather than ANI. It will also need more specifics, which articles, which edits, which editors. You'll need to provide that. I also question whether or not these are content standards that the community can't handle on their own. Liz 09:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I was going to post it at WP:AN but it said: "This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of general administrator interest.
    If your post is about a specific problem you have (a dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue needing an administrator), you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead. Thank you."
    I posted it on ANI beecause my specific problem was this dispute Rc2barrington (talk) 12:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The original post in this thread appears to resemble LLM output. GPTzero confirms this impression, rating text as "99% probability AI generated". Using AI to generate ANI submissions is highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Even when a message appears to be AI-generated, I think it is worth considering whether or not it is pointing out an actual problem. I think editors might be ignoring the results of an RFC, I just don't think asking for administrators to monitor a subject area, without identifying specific articles, is a feasible solution. It does seem like, possibly, a point that could come up in a complaint at AE regarding the Ukraine CTOP area. Liz 19:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I had a peek and it's a messy RfC and, as is generally the case with a messy RfC had a very involved closure message which seems to reflect that the closer felt constrained by the framing of the RfC. I didn't see any immediate indication in the edit history that anyone had tried to implement the RfC result and been rebuffed (although I might have missed it). So there's some smoke here but, I think, not a ton of fire. Simonm223 (talk) 20:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Liz, I don't disagree but I'm not at all convinced that use of AI is a positive contribution to CTOP areas. Axad12 (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    It was written with AI assistance. Not all AI. ai detectors aren’t considered reliable, because you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated. Regardless, whether it’s AI or not has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just that there’a been so many discussions and when I checked the info box it said ‘supported by”, violating the consensus of the RFC Rc2barrington (talk) 12:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    you can put the U.S. constitution through one and it says 100% AI generated – Well, I just put it through GPTzero and got 97% human. Might be best if you don't just make up random "evidence". EEng 17:25, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think the underlying issue here is that if you use AI to generate text which looks like obvious AI output then readers will wonder "does the end user even have sufficient English to understand what the AI has generated for them?" and "did the end user understand the material prior to deciding to employ AI?". Thus if a user is fluent in English, as you obviously are, it will always be better to communicate in your own voice.
    At the end of the day, a user making a valid point in their own voice is generally speaking going to be taken more seriously than a user employing LLM output.
    There are plenty of other reasons for users not to employ AI (see the recent thread here for extensive coverage) but the argument above seems like a good practical reason for fluent English speakers to always prefer using their own voice.
    You will see from the recent thread that many users here are vehemently against AI use. Axad12 (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I understood the material very well, its not like I just used 100% AI out of nowhere. I know the context. I have been involved in this discussion since September. Rc2barrington (talk) 16:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's a respect thing. It's disrespectful of other editors to make them read chatbot output rather than your words. Simonm223 (talk) 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    External videos
    video icon Rc2barrington's appearance on Jeopardy
    Rc2barrington's user page says This user believes in the bright future AI and robotics will bring, so there's probably no point in arguing here. However, I simply observe that in any kind of discussion where you're trying to convince other people, don't use a method that aggravates a significant number of readers (probably a significant majority of readers). It really is that simple. Axad12 (talk) 19:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Putting the use of LLM aside, however you compose your message you should comply with the basics of ANI. This includes not making allegations without supplying evidence. This would normally be in the form of diffs but in this case just links might be fine. But User:Rc2barrington has provided none.

    Probably because this is because their initial complaint appears to be unsupported by what's actually happening. They claimed "Despite the RfC's resolution, the same arguments are being repeated across multiple threads, often by the same editor". But where is this? I visited the talk page, and what I see is here Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Post RFC discussion there was a request for clarification from the closer, something which is perfectly reasonably and which the closer followed up on. The OP then offered an interjection which frankly seemed unnecessary. There was then a very brief forumish discussion. To be clear, AFAICT no one in the follow up discussion was suggesting any changes to the article. So while it wasn't he most helpful thing as with any forumish discussion; it's hardly causing that much disruption especially since it seems to have quickly ended and also cannot be called "the same arguments" since there was no argument. No one in that discussion was actually suggesting changing the article.

    Then there is Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#North Korea RFC aftermath discussion. There was again some forumish discussion in this thread which again isn't helpful but wasn't that long. But there was also discussion about other things like the name of the article and whether to restructure it. To be clear, this isn't something which was resolve in the RfC. In fact, the closer specifically mention possible future issues in a non close comment.

    Next we see Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Follow up to the previous discussion (Request for comment, can we add North Korea as a belligerent?). Again the main focus of the discussion is in how to handle stuff which wasn't dealt with in the RfC. There is a total of 2 short comments in that thread which were disputing the RfC which is unfortunate but hardly something to worry ANI about.

    Next there is Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Can we add a Supported by section for Ukraine in the infobox?. DPRK was briefly mentioned there but only in relation to a suggestion to change the infobox for other countries. No part of that discussion can IMO be said to be disputing the DPRK RfC. Next we have Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#Remove Belarus from the infobox. Again DPRK was briefly mention but only in relation to other countries. No part of that discussion can be said to be disputing the RfC. AFAICT, the only threads or comments removed from the talk page since the closure of the RfC was by automated archival. The only threads which seem to be post close are on Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 20 and none of them seem to deal with North Korea.

    So at least on the article talk page I don't see what the OP has said is happening. The tiny amount of challenging of the RfC is definitely not something ANI needs to worry about. Even the other forumish or otherwise unproductive comments aren't at a level that IMO warrants any action IMO. If this is happening somewhere else, this is even more reason why the OP needed to provide us some evidence rather than a long comment without anything concrete, however they composed it.

    Nil Einne (talk) 10:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    Concern About a New Contributor

    Suspected editor was indeed a sock. Unnecessary drama created by all-too zealous reporting--let this be the end of it. Drmies (talk) 21:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Kriji Sehamati (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Dear Wikipedians,

    I hope you’re doing well. I wanted to inform you about a new contributor @Kriji Sehamati, despite lacking experience, has repeatedly attempted to vandalize multiple articles. These articles were properly aligned with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines and reviewed by experienced contributors, but he/she seemed unwilling to understand or respect their adherence to the policies.

    I believe your experience could help address this situation effectively.

    Looking forward to your advice on how to proceed.

    Thankyou! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 15:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    "Vandalize" is a very loaded word here with a specific meaning. As far as I can tell, what they've done is nominate 4 articles for deletion, and your response has been to accuse them of vandalism, ignoring dispute resolution procedures and making personal attacks – none of which I can see at a glance through their contributions.
    Perhaps if you supplied evidence of this behaviour, someone would be able to help? If your issue is that they've nominated 4 articles of which you are a major contributor and are doing so by going through your contributions in order to find articles to nominate for deletion with specious reasons, then this board would be the place to come. If not, then making your arguments for keeping the articles on the AfDs in question would be your best bet.
    By the way is forum shopping. Stop that. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    (ec) This is an odd one. As S-Aura failed to provide diffs, I looked at Kriji Sehamati's contribution history. New account (9 Dec) began editing today, created two drafts and made a bunch of edits to those. Then began adding COI tags to articles S-Aura wrote, nominated those articles for deletion, and then left a possible UPE template on S-Aura's talk page. Really seems to be something weird going on here between those two. (In addition to opening this ANI thread, S-Aura asked for help with basically the same message on the talk pages of Ipigott, Ryan shell, CFA, and BusterD, and S-Aura opened same complaint at AN.) Schazjmd (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am concerned that User:Kriji_Sehamati’s actions, including unjustified deletion nominations and spamming, are disruptive and violate Misplaced Pages’s guidelines.
    She seems to lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related WP:GNG and WP:NPOL. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    You were asked to provide diffs. You did, almost, here but then reverted yourself. Those diffs (well, the ones before those diffs) are just the other user nominating articles for deletion (which is allowed) or tagging them for what they believe to be conflict of interest edits (which is also allowed).
    Please provide some actual evidence that the other user is engaging in chronic, intractable behaviour, rather than just not editing how you would like them to. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Here are some diffs highlighting her problematic edits. However, I believe that many of her contributions may be in violation of Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. It appears she has specifically targeted me and added the COI tag multiple times to the same page. I would appreciate it if you could review her actions more thoroughly:
    •
    •
    •
    •
    and many more
    Thankyou! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    We wouldn't generally treat an AfD as vandalism. Simonm223 (talk) 17:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I understand your point about AfDs not generally being treated as vandalism. However, I noticed that the major contribution history of the user seems suspicious. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Not from where anybody else is standing so far. I get that you're upset to have four articles of yours nominated for deletion, and if you have any evidence at all that you are being deliberately targeted by the other editor, then people will very much act on that. Please provide it. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    I am here to contribute and edit articles in accordance with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. However, today a new user targeted me and falsely blamed me for actions that are not accurate. I believe this is unfair and not in line with the collaborative nature of the platform. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please provide evidence of this. 81.2.123.64 (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Please check! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    The articles that have been nominated for deletion discussion have been reviewed by experienced contributors. These discussions involve articles about judges and lawyers, under WP:NPOL, a valid criterion according to Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Therefore, the deletion decision was made after carefully reviewing these articles. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Honestly it looks like this user, rightly or wrongly, believes you have a conflict of interest and are acting on the basis of that assumption. I would suggest, if you don't have a CoI, talking to them about this and maybe asking why they've come to this conclusion. Simonm223 (talk) 18:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    They have just started targeting my contributions, and I tried to inform her about the situation. However, she is acting as if she knows everything about Misplaced Pages and is dismissing my concerns. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 18:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    @Kriji Sehamati: hasn't edited since their AfD spree earlier today, let's wait and see what their response here is when they return to editing. Schazjmd (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • We need to stop focusing on the OP's calling this vandalism; it is not. I've changed the header to reflect that. That said, the new user's edits are problematic and merit scrutiny. As for the UPE stuff, I've removed that post from the OP's Talk page; it's nonsensical coming from a new user and does not merit a response.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • It is, of course, not vandalism to nominate articles for AFD discussions as long as a legitimate deletion rationale is provided and the article hasn't just been discussed at a recent AFD. However, I don't think it's a good sign when a brand new editor claims to understand all of Misplaced Pages policies and whose first actions are to nominate articles at AFDs. They are almost never an actual new editor, especially when they know how to even set up an AFD or are familiar with using Twinkle on their first day of editing. Liz 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
      It seems that she is not new to Misplaced Pages and might be operating multiple accounts. It appears she has an issue with one of my contributions, as she created her account just 15 days ago, yet she already has a good understanding of tools like Twinkle and AfD procedures. This level of familiarity suggests prior experience on the platform. I am now requesting her account to be blocked as I am completely disturbed by her repeated allegations and disruptive behavior. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 11:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I am now genuinely confused—if all my contributions are not good, then why am I even here? Were the experienced editors who reviewed and approved these pages also mistaken? A newcomer, who joined just recently, is now disrupting and questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors. This situation is deeply discouraging. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 11:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Please resolve this situation—either block her for her disruptive behavior. How can i continue working under such constant targeting and stress ? 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 12:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      User:S-Aura, you seem to be making unsupported personal attacks against User:Kriji Sehamati. You should provide specific evidence of wrongdoing, including diffs, or your arguments here will fall on deaf ears (and bring consequences for you). Meanwhile, as a filer on ANI, you have brought all your own edits to close scrutiny by the community. You may have to face that smart people disagree, and this is how we sort disagreements out on English Misplaced Pages. You are not required to edit, but we encourage you to do so. Nobody is going to block Kriji Sehamati at this point, because you've given us no reason to do so. BusterD (talk) 12:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Meanwhile, in the last few minutes S-Aura has disruptively created a second thread about this exact issue on this same board, which was reverted by another editor. This is intentional disruption. BusterD (talk) 12:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      As to the question "Why am I here?", poets and artists have been trying to answer this question for eons. Epistemology is outside the scope of this board, but there are articles about it. Show up to edit if you want to, but expect disagreement from time to time. (That's actually a sound answer to any epistemology question as well.) BusterD (talk) 12:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @BusterD,
      It means I have been proven wrong, and that user’s contributions have been more focused on me, which is quite insufficient to catch someone’s lie that she is pretending to be new, when in fact she is old.
      Also, I am not against AfD; I am simply expressing my opinion. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Could you please rephrase your point here? I don't understand. While it's okay to be suspicious that this editor is somehow socking or doing something else deceptive due to the familiarity, it seems unacceptable to deliberately accuse them of such repeatedly without firmer evidence. Remsense ‥ 论 13:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @Remsense,
      I am not engaged in paid activities on Misplaced Pages, and she claimed that I am connected with the subject, who is a judge, lawyer, etc. You all should understand that this is not a trivial matter; justice is a very respected position. Making such allegations can escalate court cases. I would like to remind you of the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI case. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      One thing you need to understand immediately is you should never make another post that sounds vaguely like a legal threat, as you've just done above. Seriously. That intonation is seriously not helping us decide who's right or wrong here. Remsense ‥ 论 13:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Okay! 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I will caution you that this is tiptoeing right up to the edge of WP:NLT and you'd be advised to avoid making legal threats. Simonm223 (talk) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Dear @Simonm223,
      I am merely showing that she can potentially do something inappropriate. I am following the guidelines and not making any legal threats. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Accusing another editor of potentially making legal threats is not much better, when there is no concrete evidence that they would do so. Being interested in articles about judges does not suffice. Remsense ‥ 论 13:32, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      The page of Justice Subramonium Prasad, who had conducted over the Misplaced Pages vs. ANI court hearing, was also created by me. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      State plainly what the implication you are making here is, because what I'm hearing is "I'm familiar with people who have hit Misplaced Pages with a mallet in court before, and I can make sure it happens again". Remsense ‥ 论 13:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      This is becoming a rabbit hole. I urge you not to pursue the rabbit further. BusterD (talk) 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Good call, I'll retract the above. Remsense ‥ 论 13:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No, that is not what I am implying. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 13:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No one has said your contributions are not good. However, it should be noted that a draft being accepted at AfC or a new page having been patrolled does not guarantee greater scrutiny would not result in a valid AfD nomination. That said, echoing others here it's clear something problematic is up with this user's behavior. Remsense ‥ 论 12:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      You can't both criticize someone for lack understanding of basic Misplaced Pages guidelines, particularly those related WP:GNG and WP:NPOL, and then argue that she is too familiar with the platform to be a newcomer for knowing how to file an AfD. I wouldn't be surprised if most people here knew how to file an AfD before knowing all 14 notability guidelines by heart. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      There are detailed instructions on filing an AfD that can be found by googling "how can I get a Misplaced Pages page deleted" - if somebody had some personal reason for wanting to have pages removed it doesn't strain credibility to think that's why they created a WP account and that they just followed the very clear instructions on the appropriate pages.
      In fact that might explain why some of the AfD filings were reasonable and some were, on their face, incorrectly filed. If you looked up the AfD process but not criteria that is the likely outcome. That's why I find the "new user files AfDs must be a sock" idea here somewhat uncompelling. Simonm223 (talk) 13:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I believe we're entering boomerang territory at this point. Opinions? BusterD (talk) 13:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I think OP is upset that a cluster of their articles were put up at AfD. This in itself is understandable, but while there's reason to think there might be mischief by Kriji Sehamati, we don't have any real evidence of it. We either need the OP to make it clearer what misconduct, if any, has occurred, or they need to drop the stick. Remsense ‥ 论 13:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      The OP has been intentionally disruptive (by creating a new ANI thread which was reverted), and this thread is going nowhere. IMHO, there's nothing ANI can do here. Everything I'm reading about should be resolved at the page talk and user talk level, in my opinion. The AfDs are underway. If dispute resolution is needed, fine. Nobody is harming S-Aura. S-Aura can't come crying to ANI (or four random user talk pages like mine) anytime someone merely disagrees with them. BusterD (talk) 14:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I'd have said close with trout for all if not for creating the second thread at AN/I. Based on that I'd say the OP should be formally cautioned against such antics in the future. Simonm223 (talk) 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I should have added that I largely hold with Remsense in their position. BusterD (talk) 14:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages, but we don’t have any evidence because understanding Misplaced Pages’s AfD process so quickly can be a bit challenging. I have no problem with AfD regarding my contributions, and it’s a good thing that experienced contributors are giving their feedback. If you believe that the kriji is 100% correct and her activity is not suspicious, then this discussion should be closed. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 14:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      You need to stop insisting this is definitely the case if you don't have any evidence for it, period. Remsense ‥ 论 14:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      S-Aura, how did you make the determination User:Kriji Sehamati‬ is definitely a sock puppet on Misplaced Pages? Please share your process. That's a personal attack, and requires proof to prevent you from being in violation of WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS. I've looked at the AfDs and they seem reasonable to me. When you've provided strong sources the article is being kept. So far the jury is out on the others. Both of you seem to be writing articles about obscure living persons who wouldn't normally (by my cursory reading) have a Misplaced Pages article about them because reliable sourcing is not readily found. When I see that, I must suspect COI or undeclared unpaid editing here, but nobody's admitting to it. BusterD (talk) 15:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      S-Aura's continuing to issue personal attacks makes it more difficult for us to just close this (without some form of consequence for the editor making unproven personal attacks after they've been warned repeatedly). BusterD (talk) 15:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I have made a level-four user talk page warning for the personal attack. FYI. We've been very nice about this up 'til now, but we need to stop being so kind. Doing foolish things has real world consequences. BusterD (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Both editors' apparent use of AI is certainly disruptive. If it continues, it should lead to blocks. C F A 15:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      No personal hate intended, but I just found this and thought it would be worth checking. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      It would be nice if you could explain the significance for those who do not speak Hausa. Remsense ‥ 论 16:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      She had made contributions to pages in other languages a few months ago. I am attaching her contributions link. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      How does this constitute evidence of sockpuppetry if we aren't to know what exactly happened? There's a reason we don't just automatically block anybody who is blocked on another language wiki, and I looked through the edits some and didn't find anything outrageous that made it past the language barrier. Remsense ‥ 论 17:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I agree that it’s important to ensure we have solid evidence before making conclusions. I appreciate your perspective on not automatically blocking users based on blocks from other language wikis. 𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 17:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      Please don't reply to me or others using ChatGPT. It is flat-out rude. Remsense ‥ 论 17:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support BOOMERANG - I've been uninvoled and have mainly just been watching the back-and-forths, but the personal attacks and VESTED mindset, such as "questioning the validity of all the work that has been carefully reviewed and maintained by experienced contributors", concerns me. Not sure for how long, but I don't think anything longer than a months is appropriate given the circumstances. EF 15:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • This whole thread, but especially the 16:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC) comment, feels like the OP is just throwing literally everything at the wall to see what sticks. But, worse, what is being thrown at the wall lacks any significant body of evidence to support. I note that a personal attack warning has been given for the continued unfounded accusations being presented, which I think is a good move. I don't support a block at this point, although if I was the OP I would withdraw this complaint and/or drop the stick and walk away from this topic as a matter of urgency to avoid continuing to make the situation worse. Daniel (talk) 17:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Darkwarriorblake making aspersions

    The OP says they don't care any more which I'm reading as a withdrawal and the other party says they won't be responding again so I'm closing this discussion. My only comment is that both editors in this dispute should have brought this to the article talk page to talk this disagreement out. I don't know if the differences would be resolved but this is what we advise editors to do when their edits are reverted. Now I just have to get that scene in the movie out of my mind. Liz 05:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Postscript: Ah, someone just close this, I don't care any more.  — Hex • talk 22:56, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    I'm posting here after a particularly underwhelming interaction with an editor in the form of edit summaries. I'll need to provide the context of a brief content dispute which hopefully won't take too long and then get to the point. I'm not asking for anyone to take my side in the dispute.

    Trading Places is a widely acclaimed comedy film from 1983, which is also widely acknowledged to have problematic elements by modern standards, including a scene in which the villain of the piece, stuck in a gorilla costume, is locked in a cage with a real gorilla, which is implied to sexually penetrate him without his consent.

    The article states that G. Gordon Liddy demurred being cast in the role upon finding that out. The citation for this claim is a listicle on Indiewire, which contains the sentence

    Reportedly, Liddy was on board until he got to the part where Beeks becomes a gorilla’s mate.

    Reportedly by whom is not mentioned, let alone is there a direct quotation from Liddy. Plus as can be seen the words "becomes a gorilla's mate" are linked to a very poor quality, hand-held video of the scene in question playing on a television. This alone should be enough to raise serious questions about the use of this "source" in a featured article.

    The content dispute began when I changed it like this (diff) with the comment Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs:

    −Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla.+Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks is raped by a gorilla.

    This was reverted (diff) by Darkwarriorblake with the comment not what the source says.

    After thinking about it a moment I came to the conclusion described above about the quality of the source, and decided that it was better out than in, which is what I should have done in the first place.(diff)

    −...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks. Liddy was interested in the offer until he learned that Beeks becomes the romantic partner of a gorilla. Paul Gleason took the role;...+...was offered the role of corrupt official Clarence Beeks with Paul Gleason eventually taking the role;...

    My accompanying comment was (a) That was the source's voice, not Liddy's. It's called a euphemism. Demonstrable by how it links to a clip of the scene in which a man is raped by a gorilla. (b) Source says "reportedly" for this claim, without evidence. Poor quality source. Removing claim

    That was reverted by Darkwarriorblake (diff) with the comment Nothing wrong with Indiewire as a source, if there is I'd raise it at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. Until then, there's a talk page for you to use per WP:BRD. Your comments sound agenda driven and therefore not Neutral.

    This is where the reason for me to raise this at this board begins, because that's solidly an example of casting aspersions. It came on top of a revert which reintroduced a claim cited to a rumor in a blog post into a featured article, but that's really not my concern, because if the champions of the featured article process have decided that it's somehow acceptable for our "best" content then I'm just going to move on to something else rather than argue.

    There's one final back and forth which was enough to motivate me to post here. First, I reverted that revert (, my only time using the actual "Undo" button today), with this comment: a good source doesn't say "reportedly" (ie, spread a rumor), it specifies the origin of a fact. My only "agenda" is with a crap listicle being used as a reference, regardless of who published it. Take it to talk if you want to argue for the continued inclusion of a trash ref in a featured article, or source the claim properly yourself.

    This was reverted - again - by Darkwarriorblake (diff) with the comment How are you an admin? "rape played for laughs" is an agenda, this went through FA as is so WP:STATUSQUO and WP:BRD apply. You must go to the talk page, not I. I don't know if you're going through a bad time or something but this isn't how an admin should be acting or communicating with others, up to and including WP:EDITWARRING

    At this point it's gone firmly into the realm of knee-jerk reversions, because if Darkwarriorblake took the time to read the article which they've reverting changes to for years (is this ownership? Kind of feels that way), they would get down to the critical reassessment section. Which says "some critics have praised the film while highlighting elements that they believe aged poorly, including racial language, the use of blackface, and the implied rape of Beeks by a gorilla", cited to articles in four major publications. Or, you know, even search Google for "Trading Places gorilla rape".

    So anyhow regardless of whether the Indiewire source is deemed suitable or not, I'm just wondering what the feeling here is about someone making goofy assertions on the record that another editor has "an agenda" (what agenda could it be?) and may not be emotionally stable, which really doesn't feel like assuming good faith at all.  — Hex • talk 20:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hrrm, this seems a bit excessive.
    • I've added a second source for the claim. Really this should've been the first option rather than removing the content.
    • The first summary was, as stated, "Don't mince words; the interaction between Beeks and the gorilla is rape played for laughs". "Rape played for laughs" is a loaded comment and not something said in the article or the source text, so it's a personal opinion, it's not neutral, it's agenda-driven.
    • When this was reverted, the editor just removed the content entirely claiming IndieWire was unreliable. There is, as far as I'm aware, nothing wrong with Indiewire. I've since found a second source, the Telegraph, which is reliable per Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources.
    • The editor ignored WP: BRD when raised, and as an admin they should adhere to policy.
    • The editor states that they are an admin on their page. Assuming this is true, the aggressiveness of their edits, hyper focus on the single area, and use of words like "crap listicle" seemed out of line with what I, personally, would expect from an admin on Misplaced Pages, certainly someone who has been so for nearly two decades. Perhaps the edit summary wasn't the place to have that discussion but, as stated, they weren't adhering to WP: BRD to start a discussion, and in the interim the article needed putting back to the status quo.
    • I find accusations of OWNERSHIP often tend to come when people don't get their way. Which is fine. I have plenty of reversions on the page for people adding unsourced content and there are plenty of changes as well. I find someone removing sourced content and me putting the sourced content back to not really be something you can fling ownership at.
    • Within the context of the film, Beeks does become the romantic partner of the gorilla, it seemed more appropriate and encylcopedic text than just saying 'rape', and neither source I've added says that either.
    • Anyways, my edit history shows I'm a massive contributor and helper and it's nearly Xmas, and I don't feel like engaging with this any further, good luck Hex. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of course you don't, having ignored the actual matter of your conduct that I'm raising here. Your comments about the content of the article are irrelevant.  — Hex • talk 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Hex's position is not wholly supported, although in the entire issue, their toolset is irrelevant. There was no incivility on either part, and an all-out edit war seems to have been averted.Fundamentally the change Hex wanted to make was pure OR; rape may have been intimated—or, as Hex themself admits, implied—but its never overtly stated and is a wholly loaded term. This is the interpretation of an editor, not of secondary sources. If there is a pron=blem with Indywire as a source—currently used in 1000s of articles—take it to WP:RSN. If it's disputed that it's a high quality source per WP:FA?, then take it to WT:FAC. Accusations of OWNership are as unhelpful—and as much an aspersion—as accusations of agenda-led editing. In fact, for OWNership, Hex should read the relevant policy: here, it is WP:FAOWN, which not only allows for careful stewardship of featured material, but requires significant changes to the consensus version to be discussed on talk; I don't suppose there's any suggestion that introducing rape—particularly "played for laughs"—wouldn't be a significant addition.Really though, this is an overblown content dispute which should have started with one revert each, and ended on the talk page. --SerialNumber54129 21:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
      "Never overtly stated... 'played for laughs' be a significant addition" - here's an interview with John Landis, the director.

      One of the executives was deeply appalled by a man being sexually molested by a gorilla. And I said you know, it's a joke and it goes by very quickly. But the first preview was very successful and it all went away.

      Feel free to amend the article on that basis. I'm certainly not interested in spending any more time on it.  — Hex • talk 22:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

    Followup

    I just want to say that, now that we've had an ANI thread on the subjeect of Gordon Liddy's feelings about portraying the romantic partner of a gorilla, I can die happy.

    While we're on the subject, our article on Liddy recites that Prior to his departure from the FBI in 1962, Liddy sought admission to various bars. I'm curious to know whether this is meant to imply that Liddy had a drinking problem, and whether this could have had any bearing on the whole gorilla romantic partner situation. EEng

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User Stationmanagerskidrow removing information on Radio Skid Row page

    User:Stationmanagerskidrow is repeatedly removing information about a recent incident involving a Jewish DJ at their station. They say that it is incorrect information, even though it is sourced. The name also states clearly that this is a company account. Lastly, they have continued this behavior even after being warned on their talk page. Pyramids09 (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    User is now editing using User:159.196.168.116 Pyramids09 (talk) 03:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This is a content dispute and the article is being actively edited by many different editors. However, no discussion about the disagreements has occurred on the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. Liz 04:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    That article probably should be speedied as an A7 for not containing any assertions of notability; which obscures that Stationmanagerskidrow appears to have been edit warring on it with an undisclosed COI, and presumably was WP:LOUTSOCKing as this IP, and if so violated 3RR as well. It's probably best for me not to take administrative action here tonight as I won't be around later/tomorrow to deal with any followups, but something should be done here beyond just saying "take it to the talk page." ⇒SWATJester 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The page was longer, but sourced (all but?) soley to the station's site and it's been trimmed down to what it is now. Given the repeated edit-warring by IPs I've semi-protected the page for two days for now. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    WP:USERNAME and WP:COI message added here. I'm just about to make myself thoroughly WP:INVOLVED by seeing what I can do about the Radio Skid Row article. Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Insults

    I'd like to report an incident related to this discussion. A person under IP already accused me of being "obsessed". Now someone (possibly the same person) suggests that I may need psychiatric help. Please also see this comment. I guess we can always agree to disagree with other people, but this is going a bit too far. Thank you. Psychloppos (talk) 09:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hello, Psychloppos. What action are you seeking to happen here? Liz 09:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have no idea which actions are warranted here. Maybe an admin could leave a message to this IP and this registered user and remind them that they should assume good faith ? It would also be nice to remind them about Misplaced Pages:Civility and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Saying that I am "fuelled by an unhealthy obsession" or questioning my sanity do not seem to respect those guidelines. Psychloppos (talk) 09:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Normally this starts with warnings on the user's Talk page, but it seems you two have already hashed that out. So unless this account does it again, there's no further action to be taken. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:25, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    Request for Review of Neutrality and Repeated Actions

    This complaint has no merit and does not require administrative intervention.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Dear admin, I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to express my concern regarding Psycholoppos, who has repeatedly applied the neutrality dispute tag to content related to Randa Kassis. Despite previous clarifications, these actions suggest a potential bias, which could undermine the objectivity and integrity of the platform.

    I kindly request that you review this matter and take appropriate steps to ensure that all users adhere to neutrality standards. If possible, I would also appreciate guidance on how to address such situations constructively in the future.

    Thank you for your attention to this issue. Please feel free to reach out if further clarification is needed. Hazar HS (talk) 17:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Hazar Sam, whether the NPOV tag is needed or not should first be discussed on the article's talk page. Also, see the large notice at the top of this page: you are required to notify the editor you are reporting. Schazjmd (talk) 17:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The editor is also called Psychloppos, not Psycholoppos. I have notified them for the OP. – 2804:F1...26:F77C (::/32) (talk) 17:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I wouldn't give a chatbot-written thread the time of day. HS, we have less tolerance for AI-written arguments than the American court system. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 18:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Nlkyair012 and LLM chatbots

    This editor has been constantly using AI chatbots to respond and write messages. They are a single purpose account for glorifying the Kamaria Ahir caste using unreliable WP:RAJ era sources, I and several other experienced editors have taken time and effort to respond to their endless queries and WP:SEALIONING generated using ChatGPT. They have posted AI generated walls of text on multiple noticeboards such as WP:RSN and WP:DRN and including here , accusing me of vandalism.

    Despite my repeated requests and even a final warning to them (including a request by @ActivelyDisinterested:) they are still continuing to do it. Their messages are repeating the same argument again and again and are frankly just hallucinations that bring up fictitious guidelines or misrepresent the existing ones. Several editors have told them that Raj era sources are not reliable yet they continue to ask for more evidence on why that is the case based on AI generated claims of supposed academic value or neutrality. This is getting very disruptive and taking up valuable contributor time to respond to their endless AI responses which take a few seconds to generate. I have alerted them about WP:GSCASTE and WP:ARBIPA, I would appreciate it if someone could enforce a restriction on this user from at minimum caste area. - Ratnahastin (talk) 13:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Hello @Ratnahastin,
    To start with I should admit that I am sorry for all the inconvenience that I may have caused as a result of my actions. It was never my intention to take people’s time or skew the conversation in a certain way. I appreciate the core idea to contribute the thoughts to the Wiki and share it borne in mind the overall rules and policies of this program.
    I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site. Even when I was using AI for the grammar check or, for instance, to elaborate on some point in the text, I saw to my mismanagement that over the process we probably confused the readers and repeated the same information and thoughts, which I would never wish to happen again. From now on I will ensure that in the future the input which I provide to wikipedia fits the Misplaced Pages standard and is more personal. I will also not write walls of text and will not make assertations that do not have substantiated evidence in sources.
    As for subjects that concern the Raj and the sources from this period and the discussions we have had it seems that I have gone too far in demanding clarification for the same thing. That being the case, with the understanding that the consensus will be acknowledged, I shall not be inclined to reopen this discussion unless new substantiated evidence is produced. I don’t want to prolong the conversation or bring any more stress.
    I will strive to learn from my experience to be more productive in my interactions going forward. If there are other limitations or additional rules to which I have to stick to, I will receive them with pleasure.
    In the same respect, let me specially apologize for the inconvenience and thank all of you for bearing with us. That was why I wanted to remind all of us that we can and should keep collectively improving Misplaced Pages as a resource. Nlkyair012 13:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This comment also has a typical LLM feel and contains meaningless statements such as "I understand your fears about the AI utilities you have mentioned on your site" and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style, although GPTzero said this is human input. - Ratnahastin (talk) 13:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It seems human in that it contains some composition and grammar errors that I don’t think an LLM would produce. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 13:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks for the reply sir, I can't explain how frustrated I'm feeling from this morning which this user made me experience Nlkyair012 14:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The time when I messaged Vikram banafar I was casual not formal and second of all your saying doesn't prove anything "and differs substantially from your usual (non-AI) writing style" that's a straight up false accusation and utter nonsensical point and 3rd point being that GPTzero stated that this is a human input then that's an human input end of the question. Nlkyair012 14:01, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    No it's really not the end of the story if GPTZero says "likely human". In fact I'd actively discourage people depending on tools like GPTZero in favour of their human senses which are better at detecting LLM outputs than yet another computer program. And, frankly, what you're hearing from people here is we'd rather your casual, human, flaws-and-all style of writing over ChatGPT output "formal" report templates. They are doing the opposite of what you're looking for and have become disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 14:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Man you still wanna do this? @Zanahary also says this doesn't seems AI generated to him and he used his actual "Human senses" to lean that way Nlkyair012 14:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Admitting that you have used AI for writing your comments and then saying that you have not used AI is not going to help your case. - Ratnahastin (talk) 14:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    You know what I think this is getting to the WP:NOTHERE point. Having to tell somebody to have the basic respect of other editors to not subject them to text-walls of chatGPT garbage over and over again is a disruptive distraction from what we should all be doing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This ain't getting anywhere Nlkyair012 14:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I really don't understand the problem. Cuz I literally also said many where that yes I used AI but for expanding and grammar correction Nlkyair012 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If this combative approach is your "casual" style, perhaps your use of AI and its over the top politeness was an attempt to mask it. In any case, I think you are not here for building an encyclopaedia but for caste glorification given your obsession with a certain sub-caste. - Ratnahastin (talk) 14:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    im not obsessed with a certain subcaste but am sure is obsessed with British Raj sources. Nlkyair012 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't think that's better. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 15:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    If we just temporarily put aside the AI-generated comments, can Nlkyair012 accept the view of experienced editors on Raj era sources and not push any viewpoint on a particulary caste? Because, to be honest, editors who have done this in the past usually end up indefinitely blocked. There is a low tolderance here for "caste warriors". Liz 19:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Potential vandal trying to start edit war on the page for Frisch's.

    Page protected, and now this admin is flashing back to his youth going to Frisch's Big Boy in Tampa. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This user keeps using IP addresses in order to revert creditable information about who makes their tartar sauce. Please look into this user. IP Addresses used were 67.80.16.30, 66.117.211.82, and 216.24.107.180. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrStudios The Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Courtesy link Frisch's. Knitsey (talk) 17:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    This sounds a lot like the same edit warrer I dealt with on Redbox, down to the false accusations of vandalism, removal of sourced information, and apparent use of proxies (all the IPs geolocate to different places). I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same person. I've asked RFPP to intervene. wizzito | say hello! 21:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    NVM, checked MaxMind for geolocation and they all are in the same general area. wizzito | say hello! 21:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:Nadeem asghar khan inaccurate edit summaries

    All but 2 of user's edit summaries are "Fixed Typo" when they are in fact partially updating statistical information on the page. Have left multiple messages/warnings on TP, with no response. Spike 'em (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Lil Dicky Semi-Protection

    WP:RFPP is thataway →. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Lil Dicky was semi-protected back in 2019. Now that five years have passed, could the semi-protection be lifted? 174.93.89.27 (talk) 16:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Ask at WP:RFPP EvergreenFir (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
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    Disruptive behavior from IP

    For the past month, 24.206.65.142 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been attempting to add misleading information to Boeing 777, specifically trying to use the unofficial "777-200LRF" designation beyond first mention in the relevant section and passing it off as official (, , , , , , , , , , ). Their behavior died down for a few weeks, but restarted several days ago (, ), including baseless claims that Fnlayson is "okay with it". They have been asked numerous times on their talk page to either stop or provide evidence of official use of the designation, but they have failed to do so and have continued their disruption. - ZLEA T\ 19:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    I forgot to mention that this user has used at least two other IPs; 24.206.75.140 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 24.206.65.150 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). 24.206.65.142 is the most recent to cause disruption. - ZLEA T\ 20:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    "777-200LRF" is not misleading, some cargo airlines do use that designation. Today I reverted to a previous version that User:Fnlayson was okay with . I feel that User:ZLEA is going overboard with charges of misinformation and disruptive editing. 24.206.65.142 (talk) 19:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    It is misleading to remove any mentions of it being unofficial. Boeing has never made a "777-200LRF", no aftermarket conversion has ever been offered under that name, nor has the FAA or any other regulatory agency ever certified such an aircraft. To pass such a designation off as official is by definition misleading and misinformation. Likewise, to continuously do so after you have been told to stop by multiple people and falsely claiming that others support your arguments is by definition disruptive. - ZLEA T\ 20:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Of note is the fact that this is not the first time the IP has claimed to have Fnlayson's support. They have been told before by Fnlayson not to assume support without a specific statement, yet it seems they've also ignored that. - ZLEA T\ 20:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    Its not misinformation as here are the sources which use "777-200LRF", including GE Capital Aviation (the engine supplier for most Boeing 777) and Leeham News (to avoid confusion with the upcoming 777-8F). 24.206.65.142 (talk) 21:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I have asked you for sources from either Boeing or the FAA, yet you still either refuse to do so or (more likely) cannot because they don't exist. Only Boeing and the FAA can designate factory-built Boeing aircraft. Airlines and misinformed news websites have no authority to do so, and any alternative names they use are purely unofficial and should not have anything more than a single brief mention in the appropriate article section. Your failure or refusal to get that after numerous people have told you is disruptive. - ZLEA T\ 22:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    None of those are reliable sources suitable for sustaining the edit you want to make. #1 would only support that airline claiming to have that kind of plane. #2 is a model manufacturer, and #3 is a blog. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Relevant range is 24.206.64.0/20 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)), in case somebody needs it. wizzito | say hello! 21:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

    Rude and unfestive language in my talk page

    My esteemed editor collegue Marcus Markup just left this rude message on my talk page, on Christmas Day no less. Not really in the spirit of the season, I'd say. Considering that he was sagaciously advising me on the importance of tact and etiquette in the very same thread, he should be held to the same standard. Vector legacy (2010) (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    Vector legacy (2010) and Marcus Markup, you both should stop that childish behavior and disengage from one another. Cullen328 (talk) 18:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    User:Ryancasey93

    31-hour block. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Over at Talk:Anti-Barney humor, a user by the name of Ryancasey93 requested that their YouTube channel be cited in a passage about them () that was added by TheLennyGriffinFan1994 (). The talk page discussion was removed by AntiDionysius as being promotional in nature. Ryancasey93 then decided to make an edit request to cite their channel, which was declined by LizardJr8, who then proceeded to remove the passage as being unsourced.

    I then brought up concerns with WP:GNG and WP:COI with Ryancasey93, who then proceeded to respond in a needlessly confrontational and hostile manner, creating a chain of replies and pinging me and LizardJr8. Ryancasey93 then proceeded to go off on a tangent where they said we were "very rude and belittling" to them, told us they sent an email complaint against us, called us "the most cynical, dismissive, greedy, narcissistic, and ungrateful people I ever met in my entire life", accused us of discriminating against Autistic people (I am autistic myself, for the record), and called us "assholes".

    Simply put, I feel as if Ryancasey93 does not have the emotional stability required to contribute to Misplaced Pages, having violated WP:NPA, WP:ASPERSIONS, and WP:PROMOTION, and a block may be needed. The Grand Delusion 19:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    I just logged on while digesting turkey, and was alerted of the pings and this report. I don't really appreciate the messages from the user (I'm on the spectrum too, FWIW) but I think @Tamzin gave a good response, highlighting the need for secondary reliable sources. I should have done that better when I removed the unsourced information. I would like to see if there is any further activity from the user before getting into a block discussion. LizardJr8 (talk) 21:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Looks like they've been blocked for 31 hours by Cullen328. The Grand Delusion 23:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, that last comment was unacceptable in several ways. Cullen328 (talk) 00:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
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    User:24.187.28.171

    Blocked for 3 months for edit warring. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    IP has been blocked before for previous infractions. Now, they continue to perform persistent disruptive edits contradicting the Manual of Style, either by deliberately introducing contradictions or undoing edits that resolve the issue. The user has also violated WP:DOB at Huntley (singer), though that remains unresolved for some reason. The IP has done all of this despite a backlog of warnings dating back to 2023. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EdrianJustine (talk • contribs) 22:48, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    @EdrianJustine: could you please provide specific diffs? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:23, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
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    Incivility, aspersions, WP:NOTHERE from Cokeandbread

    Cokeandbread is a few-month-old account whose area of greatest focus has been creating (and defending) two promotional pages for social media influencer-types: Jimmy Rex and Hammy TV. Cokeandbread has refused (diff) to answer good-faith questions (diff, diff) about whether they are operating as a paid editor (responding to one of them with Don't threaten me) and posted a copyvio to Commons (diff). Despite warnings (diff), the editor has been engaging in bludgeoning/disruptive behavior at the Jimmy Rex AfD (bludgeoning and attempting to !vote multiple times (diff, ) and has made uncivil remarks to other editors (diff, diff, diff), while demanding respect in the other direction. Recently, Cokeandbread posted the following on their user page: The way some people in AfD discussions move, you just know some people commenting are under demonic influence. Stay away from me and mine. (diff). Despite another warning (diff), which Cokeandbread removed when blanking their talk page (diff), this aspersion is still up. If we're at the point where an editor is accusing other editors of being demonically influenced, I think we're well into WP:NOTHERE territory. Given the lack of response to non-admin warnings and requests, I'd ask for admin intervention here. Dclemens1971 (talk) 23:34, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

    Category: