Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:48, 14 March 2007

Table at the bottom of the page

The information offered by this table should be more clearly explained since it is not completely obvious. I am going to change its position to the see also section, since it only references to Wiki articles. Hydraton31 20:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Any objection to renaming the article to Federalnaya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti Rossiiskoy Federacij? With proper redirects, of course. This would be more consistent with other articles on Russian government departments, and would also match the pattern used for U.S. agencies. -Joseph 04:36, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)

We generally use English titles. If other articles on Russian government departments are in Russian, they should also be moved to the English titles. Gzornenplatz 18:50, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

Only in the cases when the corresponding English titles are a commonly accepted standard.

• First, even in Russian "full titles" are not used or are unreasonable to be used. See, e.g., Smersh.
• Second, we are not supposed to "translate" titles ourselves, only to explain the existing usage. Mikkalai 02:48, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, in that case, this article should really be 'FSB.' But with the reorg that just happened, we should probably find out more info about that first. It will be MGB again, right? -Joseph 04:40, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)

Err.. the "coup" of 1991? Is that really proper? Graft 21:14, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Now "attempted coup", which links to Soviet coup attempt of 1991. -- Curps 01:44, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Name of Article

Since we use the name KGB for the KGB article, why must we use a semi-descriptive name for FSB (Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation), instead of FSB? Aris Katsaris 05:00, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Because KGB has long since been unique in English mainstream usage, almost never being tranlated. "FSB" is way far from a unique meaning. There is no reason to flood English language with nontransparent abbreviations, from foreign languages, especially when the native (English) language has other meanings. Also, a general rule that the article title is preferrably the full official name of something, various abbreviations being redirects. Of course, there are exceptions, for various reasons, mostly because of tradition, like "United States". Mikkalai 22:08, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Most English-language media use FSB, see CNN for instance. The fact that FSB is not unique is handled in the Misplaced Pages standard way, by appending a qualification in parentheses: FSB (Russia). I think Mikkalai is mistaken about a policy of using official names for article titles, in fact the policy is to use the most common names: Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names). Thus we have Uruguay, not "Oriental Republic of Uruguay", and United Kingdom, not "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Of course the full official name should often be mentioned in the first sentence or paragraph of the article. -- Curps 01:41, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

FSB & KGB

It is often asserted that the FSB is the KGB in a new guise. I think this issue should be dealt with in this article. The KGB page deals with this ambiguously by talking about 'function'. We know the broad 'function' is the same, but how different is the FSB from the KGB? Is it a different organisation covering the same role (state security) or the same organisation with a few cosmetic changes?--Jack Upland 01:38, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Curiosity

This section needs to be expanded on. It's quite vague, and the links are not the least bit helpful.

In the beginning of 2006 the Italian news agency ANSA reported the publication on the FSB website of an offer, open to Russian citizens working as spies for a foreign country, to work as double agents which is false. — Why is it false? As of October 2006, the offer is still up and reads as follows: "Российские граждане, сотрудничающие с иностранными разведками, могут связаться с ФСБ России по телефону доверия с тем, чтобы стать агентами-двойниками. В этом случае денежное вознаграждение, получаемое такими агентами от иностранных спецслужб, будет полностью сохранено, и с ними будут работать сотрудники ФСБ РФ высочайшего класса. При этом будет гарантирована анонимность и конфиденциальность."

I have checked this. You are right. The offer (and many other offers) are still there. I removed reference (link) because it was not operational. Biophys 05:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Acronym vs. abbreviation

It is stated that FSB is an acronym, but if you look at the definition of acronym, you find that this kind of abbreviation is voiced as a word, such as NASA. If this is correct, then what type of sound does pronouncing FSB make "FISB" or "FOSB"? Or should it just be an abbreviation "F"-"S"-"B"?

Maybe we should list only referenced information

Lets reference legitimate sources if possible, even if it contradicts your personal beliefs. "According to Chechen sources" holds no value. Compare this article to the article about CIA, notice any difference?

Chechen sources is Kavkaz.org. Unfortunately, it does not work. Biophys 15:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you surprised? CIA is a foreign intelligence agency, FSB is a domestic security agency. Colchicum 15:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Right. But what does it mean: "a domestic security agency"? There is no comparison with CIA. This article says: "FSB is a very large organization that combines functions and powers like those exercised by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Federal Protective Service, the Secret Service, the National Security Agency (NSA), U.S. Customs and Border Protection, United States Coast Guard, and Drug Enforcement Administration. FSB also commands a contingent of Internal Troops, spetsnaz, and an extensive network of civilian informants." Note that CIA is missing here, because SVR suppose to be an equivalent of CIA. What do you think? May be something else is missing? Biophys 17:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this article should be organized better?

Text in Overview seems contradictory. It says first that FSB fights crime and terrorism (which is an official version). Then, it describes Litvinenko's views that FSB promotes the crime and terrorism, instead of fighting them. Maybe it would be better to make two separate parts, for the official and "alternative" views on FSB activities? Biophys 04:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC) Besides, the text about Litvinenko is not the Overview but someting else. Of course the "alternative" view must be present, because it is actually supported by many.Biophys 04:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the Litvinenko thing doesn't even seem like it should have a major paragraph in the "Overview". Perhaps it should be moved to a rumours section of sorts... 74.109.156.190 09:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I was wrong. This is probably better as a single section.Biophys 17:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the whole article needs to be re-worked. I won't put a tag on the front page, but I think the page is pretty close to needing it... The article is just jumbled and confusing. Yuletide 17:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It is not clear what this organization does, and what its subdivisions do. FAPSI - is it currently a part of FSB or not? I think the old structure of FSB (in 1997) is not so important. A historic section describing transition from KGB to FSB should be included, but the differences or similarities of FSB and KGB functions should be explained clearly. Many claims are not supported by references. How many people work in this organization and what is its budget? I know this is secret, but some approximate estimates should exist. It seems there are different views about this organization. This is fine. The official and alternative views could be described in two different sections. But who will do this job? I can try, but I am not that much familiar with the subject. Biophys 17:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

So, I have spent a lot of time to rewrite Overview and two first chapters. It was important to tell a little about these apartment bombings. Otherwise, it would be completly unclear for reader what is that all about. Biophys 05:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

O'K. Then, I have to collect some references for this article:

English

• Russia's Secret Services at War

Russian

Note that "Novaya Gazeta" is the most liberal and not the most read Russian newspaper accessible primarily through the web.

• State control of TV and newspapers
• Operations in Georgia
• Operations of FSB against Russian scientists
• Anti-Georgian operations
• How to close a newspaper
• Kaibyshev case
• Expansion of State borders
• Summit arrests
• Summit arrests
• Arrest of a Tadjik dissident
• A similar case
• People who disappear
• Special forces that kill civilians
• Movies that create a positive image of FSB
• How FSB punish journalists
• Murder of Movladi Baisarov
• Patrushev and others
• FSB and oil
• For what reason FSB needs so much power? -1
• For what reason FSB needs so much power? -2
• For what reason FSB needs so much power? -3
• Executions by FSB forces
• FSB kidnaps journalists
• He knew too much. Now he knows nothing

Biophys 20:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Restructuring FSB part

I have made a few changes to make this more understandable for a reader. Naturally, he would ask what is the difference between FSB and KGB or between FSB and FBI.

How about removing all "historic" part of Restructuring and leaving only the current organizational structure of FSB?Biophys 20:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I realize that there are no enought references at the moment. I will provide them later. Biophys 18:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The english in this page is sloppy.

On the one hand, the sources seem (although I did not read them particularly thouroughly) very comprehensive, the english is terrible. Someone with a clear understanding of a) the issues here, which are contentious and lend themselves to debate, and b) english, the language of this section of wikipedia, and hence, the language in which this article should be written, should clean this joint up.

I agree, it would be good if someone could improve English. Could you register as a user and sign your message, please? Biophys 04:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. What is more, why is FSB not "The FSB"? That is how it is commonly referred to in English.

Agree! But the article is locked. So, there is nothing we can do. Biophys 18:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Attention! Case of Stomakhin

Please know that Stomakhin wasn't procesuted by FSB, but he was prosecuted on the basis of applications of private persons, see the article on Boris Stomakhin. The statement of Union of Councils of fSU Jews is containing false statements and facts which contradict to Mass Media reports. Stomakhin is a leader of extremist organization Revolutionary Contact Association He was sentenced by court for the extremist activities, inciting religious and ethnic hatred, promoting violent change of constitutional regime, calls for violation of terriorial integrity of Russian Federation, defamatory statements(articles 280 and 282 of the Russian Criminal Code). He is not a dissident. Consider the following his statements:

Kill, Kill, Kill! To flood all Russia with blood, to not give a quarter to anyone, to try to make at least one atomic explosion on the territory of Russian Federation -- this is like the program of radical Resistance should be, and Russian's, and Chechen's, and anyone's! Let the Russians, according to their deserts, reap as they has sown. Russians should be killed, and only killed, for there is no one among them who is normal, intelligent, or who can be talked with and for understanding of whom we could rely. Harsh collective responsibility of all Russians should be introduced, of all loyal Russian citizens for the actions of the government elected by them -- for the genocide, executions, ordeals, trade with corpses... From that moment there should be no division of killers on combatant and non-combatant, wilful or forced. http://rko.marsho.net/articl/mashadov.htm

The article 'Death to Russia' by Boris Stomkahin in Google cacheVlad fedorov 17:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not doing an original research here. I only cited a notable source on the appropriate subject. This Jewish representative said "FSB". Biophys 18:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Read your passage again. You wrote personally that "Other arrested people include ... Boris Stomakhin..." Considering the name of the article, readers could imply that FSB prosecuted Stomakhin which is a lie, that contradicts to numerous press articles and reports of non-governmental organizations. Here the links:

http://www.prima-news.ru/news/news/2006/3/29/35420.html
http://www.newsru.com/russia/03oct2006/stomaxin.html
http://lenta.ru/articles/2006/11/20/court/
http://www.regnum.ru/news/739771.html
http://www.grani.ru/Society/Xenophobia/m.114646.html
http://www.svobodanews.ru/articlete.aspx?exactdate=20061128140042880
http://www.russianlife.nl/boris_stomakhin.htm
http://arrests.cjes.ru/?id=282
http://rian.ru/defense_safety/investigations/20061005/54549461.html 
http://rian.ru/society/20061124/55959089.html

Statement by Jewish representative about FSB concerns "FSB refused to investigate the distribution of a neo-Nazi hit list", and not Stomakhin.

You have intentionally wrote false infromation that Stomakhin was prosecuted by FSBVlad fedorov 18:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not write that Stomakhin was prosecuted by FSB. I only cited statement by Mr. Naftalin where he ctriticized FSB. This is obvious. But since you insist, I can do this differently to accomodate your concerns. Biophys 03:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

No, by publishing ambiguous wording and selecting specific words from Naftalin you actually did so. Naftalin wasn't critisizing FSB. Naftalin critisizes court who ruled for 'long term of jail'. It is clear from your passage. FSB has nothing to do with this citation as it is not the only government body which carries out prosecution functions. It is carrying out prosecution functions mainly in state security area. And you could do nothing to cover your libelous statements which are already stored in page history.Vlad fedorov 07:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Russia and terrorists

I have removed the following fragments as it is unrelated to FSB. Something probably should go to Russia and the Arab-Israeli conflict and some somewhere else:

It was suggested that Russia helped Saddam Hussein to hide his Weapons of mass destruction before US invasion of Iraq in 2003

Critics claim that Russian government led by former FSB Director Vladimir Putin is providing modern military technology to the outcast governments and terrorist organizations worldwide. Modern Russian-made anti-tank weapons played significant role in Hezbollah operations against Israel Defense Forces during 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. Former Lt. General Ion Mihai Pacepa said that "Israel has been attacked with Soviet Kalashnikovs and Katyushas, Russian Fajr-1 and Fajr-3 rockets, Russian AT-5 Spandrel antitank missiles and Kornet antitank rockets." Some FSB-affiliated GRU detachments from Chechnya were transfered to Lebanon independently on the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, where they allegedly conducted intelligence missions together with Hezbollah after the conflict. Pakistani journalist Hamid Mir revealed that Russia and Iran are providing weapons and money to the Taliban in 2006, according to his sources in Afganistan government

It is also possible that Russian government promotes the Nuclear program of Iran to use Iran as proxy against the West. Yossef Bodansky and some others even claim that Iran may have already purchased nuclear warheads from Russia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alex Bakharev (talk • contribs) 08:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

FSB as a ruling political party

Very interesting material (Russian), Echo of Moscow

Таким событием, с моей точки зрения, стала Коллегия федеральной службы безопасности, которую провел президент В.Путин, и в которой приняли участие все важнейшие чиновники страны. А это глава администрации президента Сергей Собянин, заместитель главы администрации Игорь Сечин, помощник президента Виктор Иванов, глава Контрольного управления Александр Беглов, генеральный прокурор Юрий Чайка, министр внутренних дел Рашид Нургалиев, директор Федеральной службы охраны Евгений Муров, директор СВР - это разведка, Сергей Лебедев, руководитель Госнаркоконтроля Виктор Черкесов. Руководитель Федеральной службы по финансовому мониторингу Виктор Зубков, руководитель Главного управления спецпрограмм президента Александр Царенко, глава Счетной палаты России Сергей Степашин, председатель Верховного суда России Вячеслав Лебедев. Прошу прощения за столь длинное перечисление фамилий, оно просто показывает – не путайте, это было не заседание правительства, это была Коллегия Федеральной службы безопасности. Так вот этот список, конечно, показывает, сколь важное ключевое место в сегодняшней политике России играет наследница КГБ, Федеральная служба безопасности. Кстати, среди приглашенных на заседание этого теневого, или кто-то говорит - второго, первого - кому как больше нравится – правительства России, был приглашен и председатель Комиссии по контролю за деятельностью силовых структур Общественной палаты Анатолий Кучерена. Правда, лишь на телевизионную часть заседания. Потом контролера от кремлевской общественности попросили вон.

Мы знаем, что на этой коллегии ФСБ Путин призвал органы Госбезопасности принять самое деятельное участие в контроле за избирательным процессом. Он сказал – цитирую: «В этом году пройдут очередные выборы в региональные законодательные собрания и Госдуму. Это важнейший демократический механизм формирования государственной власти, власти ответственной, и избранной в результате здоровой политической конкуренции. Важно не только обеспечить законность, - сказал президент, - и правопорядок, но и обезопасить общество от попыток вброса на общественно-политическое поле идеологии экстремизма, национальной и конфессиональной нетерпимости».

О.КРЫШТАНОВСКАЯ: ...чем ниже уровень политического класса, тем больше там представителей всяких других, боковых ветвей, в том числе, и МВД, и армия, и прочее – то есть, все виды силовых структур уже присутствуют. Но на самой верхушке, политбюро - это буквально 50 на 50 - разведка и контрразведка. Пополам. Но сейчас интересный процесс еще другой - в составы Советов директоров крупнейших компаний с присутствием государства достаточно много сейчас тоже представителей силовиков - этот процесс новые, и пока скрытый от общественного внимания, но мы подробно этим занимаемся, и обнаружили, каким образом туда вмонтируются эти люди.

О.КРЫШТАНОВСКАЯ: ...всегда профессиональная какая-то группа выделяется по своей функции в обществе - то есть, ментальность, все прочее – это вторично. Это люди - силовики – откуда слово «силовики»? Потому что эти люди с оружием в руках призваны защищать что-то. То есть, это вооруженная группа людей - вот это их объединяет прежде всего. Если смотреть в микроскоп, то конечно - каждый вид оружия, каждый вид спецслужбы, или не спецслужбы, конечно, он различный. Но если смотреть подальше, в телескоп, так сказать, то у них так много общего, что можно их считать одной группой. Конечно, я понимаю все оговорки, которые здесь надо сделать. Почему это одна группа? Еще в советское время она была сконструирована, и слово «силовики» возникло в советское время – ни в одной стране мира почему-то нет такого слова, всегда при переводе на английский, французский, немецкий, приходится пояснить многими словами, что имеется в виду. Почему у нас все они соединены, а там это все-таки разные вещи? Есть причины. У нас была иерархия этих силовых ведомств. И КГБ, а сейчас ФСБ, являлось мозгом, которая управляла другими вооруженными структурами – ну, армией в меньшей степени.

Е.АЛЬБАЦ: но, тем не менее, Третий Главк контролировало и Генштаб и Министерство обороны, и ГРУ.

О.КРЫШТАНОВСКАЯ: Да, конечно. И тройки были во всех регионах. Тройка - это УКГБ, туда еще входил главный милиционер и прокурор. Вот тройки силовиков, которые определяли на местах очень и очень многие важные вещи. Ментальность разная у них. Но поскольку лидирующие позиции занимает ФСБ, то ментальность ФСБ – она ключевая. И поскольку это организация типа такого закрытого ордена, то она построена вся на том, чтобы буквально зомбировать - может быть даже в хорошем смысле, «зомбировать» такое слово с негативным оттенком – пропитывать людей, которые проходят через эту школу, определенной совершенно идеологией. И эта идеология она главенствующая, это идеология, где патриотизм положен в основу основ. Biophys 17:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Secret police organization or intelligence agency?

Clearly FSB is not an intelligence agency but secret police organization. See Chronology of Soviet secret police agencies and List of secret police organizations. Biophys 18:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I can also copy a segment from discussion above:

Are you surprised? CIA is a foreign intelligence agency, FSB is a domestic security agency. Colchicum 15:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Right. But what does it mean: "a domestic security agency"? There is no comparison with CIA. This article says: "FSB is a very large organization that combines functions and powers like those exercised by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Federal Protective Service, the Secret Service, the National Security Agency (NSA), U.S. Customs and Border Protection, United States Coast Guard, and Drug Enforcement Administration. FSB also commands a contingent of Internal Troops, spetsnaz, and an extensive network of civilian informants." Note that CIA is missing here, because SVR suppose to be an equivalent of CIA. Biophys 17:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Description of FSB as a secret police

Since the article in Misplaced Pages says that secret police term is usually used in totalitarian regimes, that description is an evident POV. Russia is a member of European Convetion on Protection of Human Rights and there is jurisdiction of Human Rights Court in Strasbourg over Russia. Russia is a member of European Council, the statute of which evidently excludes the membership of non-democratic states. Constitution of Russian Federation provides that Russian Federation is a ..democratic, unitarian...state. There are direct, open and equal elections in Russian Federation (unlike in the US which do not have open, direct, free and equal elections), there is a Parlament which has exclusive competention not owned by the President of Russian Federation. Totalitarian regimes do not have such institutes and Russia couldn't be characterized in terms used for totalitarian states.Vlad fedorov 04:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

No, secret police can be present not only in totalitarian regimes, but also in authoritarian and other regimes, including even democratic regimes. Biophys 04:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

If CIA would be described as a secret police in respective article of Misplaced Pages, then I would agree on that. Otherwise, it is just a POV which obviously distorting the real FSB.Vlad fedorov 05:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

CIA is irrelevant. This is article about FSB.Biophys

CIA is a proper equivalent of FSB in the US. Since CIA is not described as a secret police and there are no self-descriptions of FSB as a secret police, this word collocation is a POV and defamatory.Vlad fedorov 07:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course, it is not. CIA is equivalent of SVR. By assigning foreign intelligence functions to FSB (Russia) you diminish the importance of SVR, a very powerful organization.Biophys 19:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Very powerfull according to Biophys? If we all are to belive in your fantastic know-it-all abilities, then perhaps you should sometime identify your authorship (original research) in Misplaced Pages edits? I have written to you already that many times US Congress formed commissions designed to investigate the activities of CIA on the US soil and therefore CIA is not exclusively foreign intelligence service. Moreover, after September 11th, US Congress passed the the Patriot Act which allows CIA to spy on US citizens by virtually any means available. You description of CIA as a foreign intelligence agency is laughable. See the Encarta or Britannica.Vlad fedorov 19:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant. This is not article about CIA.Biophys 19:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Summarily, if other Encyclopedias articles are irrelevant for Biophys, then Biophys opinion is irrelevant for me. Is this your last argument?Vlad fedorov 20:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Dispute on 'secret service' description

I would like to learn the arguments of those who describe FSB as a secret police and specific links to NPOV sites which describe FSB as a secret police, since it is a Misplaced Pages (Encyclopedia). Please, go on.Vlad fedorov 08:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Just look at the Misplaced Pages articles I cited above and others. But I proposed a compromise here. Let's tell "secret police and intelligence". Why not follow this compromise? I am sure FSB does some intelligence as well. Biophys 19:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not a compromise, since the term secret police used only in regard of totalitarian regimes, and specifically in regard of Gestapo. Your description of FSB as a secret police pursues only defamatory goals (equalling of FSB to Gestapo) which is obvious POV. You haven't put forward any intelligible argument. If CIA or FBI would be described as secret police on respective articles and it should be kept by other users, then we may continue discussion.Vlad fedorov 20:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Another important thing. Members of FSB proudly call themselves "Checkists" rather than "KGBists". They want to emphasize the historical tradition. And they are right. Such tradition does exist. So, it is important to note. Besides, people in the West know KGB but do not know FSB. So, we must tell: this is main successor of KGB. Indeed, it is FSB (rather than SVR) appears to be main successor. Telling otherwise would diminish the importance of FSB. Biophys 19:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, these are linguistic specifics of Russian language. The word 'troll' in English also has different meanings and usually it doesn't mean a character from a fairy tale. So Chekist doesn't nessecarily mean a person answering to Edmund Dzerzhinsky and abiding Builders of Communism Code. Second, they do not specify which specific traditions they heir from Cheka and your personal original research in interpreting these phrases and citations of other indivduals (me, for example) which you do not support with specific sources is actually has nothing to do with Encyclopedia. It's either you have source which proves 'beyond the reasonable doubt', or you have a hearsay which have no place here. Western ignorance on current affairs in Russia is usually cured through better education and obviously not by doing personal adaptations in Encyclopedia which is used worldwide and not only by 'the West'. I don't think that FSB would feel itself abused, if we would describe it as an intelligence service. Especially when you would look at their webpage for the first time in your life and would read about their scope of work. Ridiculously, I haven't seen to many links in this article to FSB website. More large bulk of links are dedicated to hearsays and conspiracy theory websites.Vlad fedorov 20:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Citations from the Law on FSB http://fsb.gov.ru/under/fsb.html:

Статья 8. Деятельность органов Федеральной службы безопасности Article 8 Деятельность органов Федеральной службы безопасности осуществляется по следующим основным направлениям: - контрразведывательная деятельность; - борьба с преступностью. Article 9 Контрразведывательная деятельность - деятельность органов Федеральной службы безопасности в пределах своих полномочий по выявлению, предупреждению, пресечению разведывательной и иной деятельности специальных служб и организаций иностранных государств, а также отдельных лиц, направленной на нанесение ущерба безопасности Российской Федерации. Biophys, in your opinion, контрразведка, doesn't mean intteligence?Vlad fedorov 20:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course, not! This is counter-intelligence (as already written in this article), not intelligence. It also says: "fight with crime". Who fights crime? Police. Next question: is this secret police or not? Obviously, this is not normal police (such as one run by MVD), obviously it operates in secrecy as described in all sources.Biophys 21:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop your sophistic and tautalogical bad-tasting tricks. I've got 97% on Philosophy exam at the University of Oxford record, '5' mark in Warsaw University and Gomel State University. Crime is fought by the courts, congress (parlament), president, state prosecution, penitentiary system, non-governmental organizations, teachers, schools and etc. Police is just one out of many bodies who deal with crimes. Are you gonna name judge secret police member (closed court proceedings)? The question is how your current term 'counter-intelligence' relates to your previous 'secret police' description? It's pretty different to 'secret police'. Police doesn't perform counter-intelligence, indeed. And second, as I said previously, the Misplaced Pages article on secret police describes unambiguously that this term denotes to totalitarian regimes. Moreover there is an ongoing debate over validity of that term, which could be seen there http://en.wikipedia.org/Secret_police#Controversy_over_the_term. According to your personal sophisms we should characterize not only CIA as a secret polcie, but FBI, Delta and SWAT too. There are no even hints in the respective Misplaced Pages articles, that FBI and CIA are 'secret police'. How then it comes in accord with your allegations? Could we write in Encyclopedia article that "FSB, according to the learned opinion of anonimous Misplaced Pages user Biophys, is a secret police"? Could you identify yourself as a reliable source here in Misplaced Pages? E.g. provide your address, education background, bibliography of your research works written and etc.? Do you acknowledge your intentional defamation of FSB? Intelligence and counter-intelligence are actually refer to one and the same matter - intelligence.Vlad fedorov 14:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

So, you want to tell that FSB is a "domestic security agency"? The secret police article says: "Secret police forces may be contrasted with the domestic security agencies found in modern liberal democratic states, which are generally subject to government regulation, reporting requirements and other accountability measures." But a significant portion of this FSB (Russia) article contradicts completely this assessment. Take a look at "Criticism of FSB actions". It is supported by at least fifty valid references. All of them tell exactly the opposite. They tell that FSB "activities are not transparent to the public, their primary purpose is to maintain the political power of the state rather than uphold the rule of law, and they have often been used as an instrument of political repression", as explained in the secret police article. So, this is already supported by ~50 referencesBiophys 14:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Try to meditate over the meaning of the word 'to contrast".Vlad fedorov 15:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

But a significant portion of this FSB (Russia) article contradicts completely this assessment. Take a look at "Criticism of FSB actions". It is supported by at least fifty valid references.

May I just correct you? 'Fifty valid references' to empty allegations by either foreign government sponsored organizations and individuals or by the radical opposition representatives seeking to defame acting government. No court judgements, no official statements, no any specifics and whereabout. Of course we should all believe that these guys are claiming these allegations with 'good faith' hidden in their pockets. And these guys, of course, are objective, independent experts on these topics, like Mitrokhin, the traitor, former KGB spy, working on the CIA disinformation team?Vlad fedorov 15:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

All of them tell exactly the opposite. They tell that FSB "activities are not transparent to the public, their primary purpose is to maintain the political power of the state rather than uphold the rule of law, and they have often been used as an instrument of political repression", as explained in the secret police article. So, this is already supported by ~50 referencesBiophys 14:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

May I just cite the respective passage of Law on FSB? It says that anyone has the right to receive explanations and information from FSB in case their rights and freedoms are restricted. Could you cite me analogous passage from the US legislation on the CIA or FBI? I bet you won't, since the United States Code doesn't vest the US citizens even with right to demand explanations from them. It is exactly why the US Congress, itself, has set up the Committee to investigate the activities of CIA on the US soil. Many thanks. http://fsb.gov.ru/under/fsb.html

Статья 6. Соблюдение прав и свобод человека и гражданина в деятельности органов Федеральной службы безопасности

Государство гарантирует соблюдение прав и свобод человека и гражданина при осуществлении органами Федеральной службы безопасности своей деятельности. Не допускается ограничение прав и свобод человека и гражданина, за исключением случаев, предусмотренных федеральными конституционными законами и федеральными законами.

Лицо, полагающее, что органами Федеральной службы безопасности либо их должностными лицами нарушены его права и свободы, вправе обжаловать действия указанных органов и должностных лиц в вышестоящий орган Федеральной службы безопасности, прокуратуру или суд.

Государственные органы, предприятия, учреждения и организации независимо от форм собственности, а также общественные объединения и граждане имеют право в соответствии с законодательством Российской Федерации получать разъяснения и информацию от органов Федеральной службы безопасности в случае ограничения своих прав и свобод.

Irrelevant. All these fifty sources satisfy Misplaced Pages verifiability criteriaBiophys 15:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

All these fifty sources do not contain description of FSB as a 'secret police', they just contain criticism. Vlad fedorov 15:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

All lawyers in Russian total more than 10 million. 10 million versus 50 induviduals??? 50 individuals present their respective POV, so their individual POV's couldn't be presented as everyone's POV. And definetly term 'secret polcie' couldn't be used in the opening passage. Would you be so nice by not expressing your arguments in single words such as 'irreleveant'? Vlad fedorov 15:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Lawyers are completely irrelevant. This is Encyclopedia, not a court. Biophys 17:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Lawyers and regulations are relevant. Your famous 50 references do not describe FSB as a secret police. And it is exactly why you are just waisting time there. It was your personal POV. We may add Cholcium, but that's won't change anything.Vlad fedorov 04:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The functions of FSB are almost exactly parallel to those of the infamous Geheime Staatspolizei, which was undoubtedly a secret police, as witnessed by its very name. Colchicum 18:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Could you support your POV with citations from other encyclopedias? Encarta or Britannica? If no, then I congratulate you with another POV which you may personally maintain. Ironically, Boris Stomakhin writings were characterized as being worse that Mein Kampf, while Boris Stomakhin is considered by Biophys as dissident.Vlad fedorov 04:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

True. But Vlad will never agree. Does it mean this article will be locked forever because of such minor and absurd dispute? This is probably a question for administrators. I can promise not to be involved in RR wars with regard to this article if it helps.Biophys 19:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, let him alone with his problems. Actually, he makes much less changes in the overall impression from the articles than he might like. Although I agree that his activity is a bit disruptive, nothing important really depends on it, and nobody will ever be allowed to make enough damage here by the general Misplaced Pages community. I think it is much more important to create a network of new articles (stubs at least) covering the recent Russian history than to enter into an edit battle with somebody over these subtleties. Networks are much less prone to such damage. Colchicum 20:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I would remember this violation by you of 'good faith rule' and personal attack.Vlad fedorov 04:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't care much about what you are going to remember. You yourself was warned by Misplaced Pages administrators against committing personal attacks as often as imaginable. By the way, could you please make yourself familiar with the topics you are writing on before editing? I have noticed that you tried to add some false information to Misplaced Pages, e.g. that Stepashin had never worked for FSB, Potanin was married to a daughter of Yeltsin and some similar nonsense. Colchicum 13:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well that's all you could convict me of. However I just made two mistakes which I have acknowledged. But your POV edits describing FSB as SS or Gestapo are much more serious since you two forcibly advance your own biased anti-Russian opinion unsupported by any sources whatsoever. May I notice that it is you who discusses personality of users here. Are you Wikipedian indeed? I thought everyone's discussing the article here, not the personality of contributors and it is you who the first touched my personality not me. So just learn Misplaced Pages guidelines prior to joining this article. Ok? Vlad fedorov 15:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Right. Then you need more people with knowledge of recent Russian history and good English in Misplaced Pages. I am actually very far from it. I simply could not stand and see how FSBists are killing very best people. Otherwise, I would not write much on political/history topics.Biophys 21:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Okey Mister Colchicum, then if I am alone such a nasty individual how then it comes that CIA, FBI have pretty much the same functions and are not reffered to as 'secret police' or Geheime Staatspolizei? Please comment this... Does that mean that according to User Colchicum, american users editing Wiki's respective articles are disrupting the Community work? Considering this http://en.wikipedia.org/Waco_Siege#The_initial_assault and this http://en.wikipedia.org/Ruby_Ridge#Siege FBI is pretty much acting like Geheime Staatspolizei. Try to sort out your POV from your allegations. I have already written that this term is considered to be contradictory in the respective Misplaced Pages article on secret police. And if you don't have any valid arguments for putting that term into the opening passage, you better stop your time waisting.Vlad fedorov 04:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Citations from the Law on FSB say that anyone has the right to receive explanations and information from FSB in case their rights and freedoms are restricted. Could anyone here cite me analogous passage from the US legislation on the CIA or FBI?Vlad fedorov 04:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Let me interject for a minute and say something. The FSB is most likely a secret police, as the Litvinenko case proves. Link? Sure, why not? Ion Mihai Pacepa. Since it is a Russian POV, and he has considerable proof connecting the FSB with Litvinenko's death, I'd consider the FSB a secret police from the article CPTGbr 16:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Okey, then let's write that FBI and CIA are also secret police. Moreover there are some notorious supporters of this like Timothy McVeigh. Why don't you write this in FBI and CIA articles then? They plot and kill people around the world, disinform and make provocations! Are you specific in your disinformation and bias? Why the bias of such people like you only concerns FSB, but when it comes to FBI and CIA this bias vanishes like a girl's virginity after the graduation party?Vlad fedorov 05:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Practice what you preach Vlad. I gave proof that they are secret police, yet you make accusations all across the board without citing anything. So please, stop being a hypocrite and start defending yourself, not attacking me. Plus the FBI and the CIA have nothing to do with the FSB and have no place in this discussion. CPTGbr 03:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that you gave me nothing in proof. Could you cite anyone who is saying that FSB is a secret police, except you? Second, no one has established that FSB is liable for Litvinenko death. I would like to remind, if you are not acquainted with news, that the likely killer flied to Jugoslavia from London, according to London police. Please, stop your false accusations that I attack you, because the next time you would write it I would complain on the noticeboard. If you couldn't cite reliable sources claiming that FSB is a secret police, if you can't realize the definition of secret police, then its your personal problem. Again, I repeat you have presented no sources to support you empty words. It is encyclopedia, not a place for publication of your personal views. I again could cite from Britannica and Encarta on FSB, and stress the absence of a term "secret police":

Encarta

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569000_15/Russia.html#p202

"In the Soviet era the KGB (Komitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti; Russian for 'State Security Committee') and its predecessors were large and powerful organizations. The KGB’s role included intelligence work abroad, counterespionage, and the repression of domestic dissent. The KGB also provided the top Soviet leadership with information about public moods and international developments that could not be gained from the USSR’s censored press. KGB officers were members of the Soviet elite and were often very intelligent and well educated. In 1991 public outcry erupted after the agency participated in a failed coup, and President Yeltsin subsequently split the agency into five bodies. The main heirs to the KGB are the FSB (Federal Security Services), which concentrates on domestic affairs, and the SVR (Foreign Intelligence Service), which inherited the KGB’s foreign agents and activities. Although the major successor agencies are still large bodies with pervasive influence, Russians are now far freer to express their opinions and engage in independent political activity than they were under the KGB in the Soviet Union".

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761574501/KGB.html "KGB, in full, Komitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti (State Security Committee), the government agency of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics..."

Definition of secret police by Encarta: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761565081/Secret_Police.html Secret Police, special police force organized by autocratic or totalitarian regimes in defense against their enemies.

Britannica

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9384885/Federal-Security-Service

Russian Federalnaya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti , formerly (1994–95) Federal Counterintelligence Service Russian internal security and counterintelligence service created in 1994 as one of the successor agencies of the Soviet-era KGB. It is responsible for counterintelligence, antiterrorism, and surveillance of the military. The FSB occupies the former headquarters of the KGB on Lubyanka Square in downtown Moscow.

Britannica on secret police: http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9378132

Generally clandestine, secret police have operated independently of the civil police. Particularly notorious examples were the Nazi Gestapo, the Russian KGB, and the East German Stasi. Secret-police tactics include arrest, imprisonment, torture, and execution of political enemies and intimidation of potential opposition members.

As we see from this review neither Encarta, nor Britannica call FSB a secret police. I believe that user CPTGbr, is just aspiring to push forcibly his point of view (personal opinion) without citing any sources here. For that he undertook some defamatory and personal attack moves whichj could be seen here http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ABiophys&diff=114715622&oldid=114560367 and here http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AAlex_Bakharev&diff=114896675&oldid=114890366. Vlad fedorov 05:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

While I haven't gone through the articles or whether or not they are reliable, you took from a sources that a). Need a subscription to fully read and b). Have very little information proving your point, of what is readable. The second thing is that my comments that I make are separate from this discussion. In fact, I'm surprised that an intelligent person like you would take a cheap tactic like that. And I think (i.e. personal opinion) that you are forcing your opinion on others as well, as well as the admin who locked this page, so I guess that makes us even. As well, by saying that I haven't proved my point, when I obviously gave a link to support it. And yes, the British Police have linked Russia (and the FSB) to Litvinenko's assassination. Either way, you still haven't disproved that the FSB is a secret police. Short Summary: Back up your points with pages that you can actually read the whole thing. CPTGbr 23:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Infiltration

The English language wikipedia has been infiltrated by members of the FSB (some of them being wiki admins now) who forge history files and remove content critical of Putin's Russia. So far these attempts meet stiff resistance by the wiki community.

Why do you think so? Which Misplaced Pages articles and what content do you mean?Biophys 22:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

While I'm not the guy who posted above, this would make sense, as the above argument between Vlad and Biophys shows, but there is no actual proof that this happened, since no links are given. Please show proof CPTGbr 16:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

FSB or not, but it is simply impossible to work in Misplaced Pages when Vlad is tracing all my changes and reverts them saying nonsense, like Political assassinations - Please cite sources, these people were killed earlier than KGB was born in article Active measures. He said that about murder of Georgi Markov organized by KGB and described in all detail by Oleg Kalugin and Oleg Gordievsky! This is outright humiliation. This has absolutely nothing to do with creating an Encyclopedia. See also: Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Vlad_fedorov.

Biophys 01:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Man you guys need to get a life

Yes, I will. Biophys 01:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

GESTAPO etal

Were not the majority of arrests of political criminals in NAZI Germany conducted for the Gestapo by the KRIPO? Especially as the KRIPO was also a much larger agency. AND... the police in the UK and the Commonwealth do conduct security and intelligence operations, see Special Branch. I could also add the SIS which was a branch of the FBI operating in South American during and after WWII. There were many allegations of FBI activities as Hoover was also known to oppose the establishment of the oSS and the CIA ass he thaught the FBI shoul be an all encompassing agency. Note that FBI means Federal Bureau of Investigations and is not discriptive of what type of investigations, just as the US Marshals and the US Secret Service were both heavily involved in intelligence activities, esp in America's naive adolosence. Just adding food for thought. The previous was added by Tomtom9041 --71.242.127.31 22:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Tomtom9041 for your information. It is really helpful.Vlad fedorov 05:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Protected edit

I have made an edit while the article was protected. Please complain to WP:AN/I if you think I have abused my admin rights but otherwise the leading phrase does not make sense. Alex Bakharev 05:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, this kind of introduction is employed by Britannica, but it mentions only KGB. Encarta doesn't employ such intro at all. This kind of intro here is tricky and ambiguous in regard of what is heired from the earlier agencies. And this is unencyclopedic, because ambiguous. Anyway, this is no problem for me. However, secret police, is over the top.Vlad fedorov 06:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

1. Russia Hid Saddam's WMDs -by Ion Mihai Pacepa, Washington Times, October 2, 2003.
2. Moscow Arms Assad with a Top-Flight Surface Missile by DEBKAfile
3. Syrian Missile Sale Slots into Secret Russian Air Defense System for Iran by DEBKAfile
4. Through Arms to Syria, Putin Challenges US Middle East Game Rules by DEBKAfile
5. Russia secretly offered North Korea nuclear technology - by a Special Correspondent in Pyongyang and Michael Hirst, Telegraph, September 7, 2006.
6. Russian Footprints - by Ion Mihai Pacepa, National Review Online, August 24, 2006
7. Moscow posts two Chechen platoons in S. Lebanon, one headed by an ex-rebel commander, "to improve Russia’s image in the Arab world" by DEBKAfile
8. The Future of Pakistan: An Interview with Journalist Hamid Mir - by David Dastych, The New Media Journal, May 8, 2006.
9. Iran Flaunts Low-Level Enrichment to Conceal High-Powered Weaponizaton Plant by DEBKAfile
10. Russia and the Iranian Bomb - by J. R. Nyquist, Geopolitical Global Analysis