Misplaced Pages

I appreciate and apprize admin Magog the Ogre for his such decisive action at this moment very much, more than just saying support it. I'd like to say it would be better if such action had taken earlier. As for the dispute itself, even I am on one side but I can say I am quite open, not only including open for either of dual name D/S or S/D, or pure/real English name, but also including let the tag be on if there is dispute even the title can be moved into a one which I think is NPOV . I am not going to take advantage of status quo by stubbornly removing out such tag when the title is the one I accept but the dispute has been raised and ongoing. Admin 日本穣 mentioned Liancourt Rocks dispute, that remind me that the mediation started going to a deadlock. When I mentioned the precedent Liancourt Rocks which has been demonstrated as example in the the guideline WP:NCGN#Multiple local names, Qwyrxian expressed "Please drop it" and then actually shut a door or way as a possible solving approach. I am not critisizing anyone here, instead, I just hope we should be more open in the future DR no matter it will be through AbrCom or the extensive community. Anyway, currently under such sanction set by admin Magog the Ogre, I am willing to do some substatial edit contributions on the page content which I wanted to do before but lost my interesting under previous POV pushing situation and the page(s) got locked. --Lvhis (talk) 20:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I think Magog's actions are justifiable. I advocated the locking of both pages in the past for the very same reason. Since Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution process is ill-equipped to deal with editors who engage in tendentious editing (i.e. look at how the mediation that took place last month ended up), I think this is the best course of action that can be taken. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Restatement

My contributions to this not-very-complicated thread have been informed by a four-prong examination at each and every point in a predictably escalating drama:

• 1. What is the quality of the sources used by both sides in the dispute?

• 2. What is the consensus of scholars in the field; and does each cited source reflect that consensus?

• 3. Are the sources actually supporting the assertions for which they are cited?

• 4. Are unsourced assertions being used?

Can't we agree that this provides a commonly accepted foundation for our work together. --Tenmei (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Lead section

Lvhis, I'm sorry, but your edits are not helpful. It doesn't matter how many sources you put in, because they're not that relevant to what the first line of the article should be saying.

Yes, Japanese people know the islands as the "Senkaku Islands". Yes, Chinese people know them as the "Diaoyu Islands". But Taiwanese people are not Chinese, and they do not know the islands as "Diaoyu". More importantly, you're still limiting the recognition of the names to Japan and China. Why? This whole dispute is over what names are most common in English. So why are you making these changes? John Smith's (talk) 19:09, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I LOVE IT when my British friend chooses to presents his view on Chinese issues as expert opinions. Let's seeee......

On " not know the islands as Diaoyu": I believe it's already established that Diaoyutai was known to be used in media from PRC and Diaoyu was known to be used in media from ROC. In case that isn't clear enough, this is an RS from , which is a media based in Taiwan.

On "Taiwanese people are not Chinese": According to ], 98% of people living in Taiwan are Han Chinese and so this statement does not make sense. In the event the term "Taiwanese" is used to refer to aboriginal people living in Taiwan, then please note that these aboriginals are minorities and do not in fact run the country. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 01:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

So Taiwan is China then? Oh what a wonderful POV world we live in...time to step away from the big red button.

If one is born in Taiwan one is Taiwanese, not Chinese. One can not be Han Chinese unless you are born in China, so basically you are saying that 98% of the population of Taiwan moved there after being born in China, rather than people born in Taiwan who are of ethnic Han Chinese descent? Chaosdruid (talk) 02:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you are an expert in Chinese? Then perhaps you should correct this page: Chinese_people

(out of chrono order) One does not need to be an expert in Chinese matters to see the validity of being born somewhere being ones country and nationality after a generation or two, and where ones people originally came from being ones ethnic identity. Maybe you could correct the Australian article? There you would be saying that Australians are in fact mostly British? Chaosdruid (talk) 04:07, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest you to read the link I pointed you to before making the next response (if any). Thanks. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

>If one is born in Taiwan one is Taiwanese, not Chinese
When the day comes when the government on Taiwan ceases to use the name Republic of China and officially uses the name "Taiwan" (and "when" is quite a question), then again depending on interpretations, your statement might be considered true; however it is currently not. "Chinese", and to some interpretations, "Taiwanese" are nationalities, but Han Chinese is an ethnicity that encompasses the two. Keep in mind that 78% of Singaporeans are Han Chinese - that does not mean that their nationality is no longer Singaporean. Same goes for the 24% of Malaysians that are ethnic Han, and 40% of Thais that are either full or part Han.
>There you would be saying that Australians are in fact mostly British
However, Australians call their country the Commonwealth of Australia, not the "British protectorate of New Holland". Taiwan, however, is part of what is known as the Free Area of the Republic of China, "free" as in "not under Communist Party of China control", along with Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and Taiping Island. In addition, "British" is a nationality and not an ethnicity; Australians, New Zealanders and some Brits can be Anglo-Saxons, whilst some Brits can be Scots, Irish or Welsh. This is an example of apples and oranges. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Benlinsquare, that's rather disingenuous of you. You know full well that the only reason Taiwan's government is titled the Republic of China is because it was forced on them by the KMT when they occupied the island and because now it's virtually incapable of changing it (for the moment). It is one clear factor that China says will cause it to invade. Only a tiny minority of Taiwanese people identify themselves as being Chinese. The rest identify themselves as being Taiwanese or Taiwanese/Chinese (in as far that they know their ancestors came from China). John Smith's (talk) 09:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

They call their written script Traditional Chinese, their language "Chinese", their pop music C-pop, their airline China Airlines, their postal service Chunghwa Post, etc etc. It's not that different from Singaporean Chinese calling their language Chinese and their script Simplified Chinese. Jay Chou doesn't call his music "T-pop" or variants of that name even though he is from Taiwan; his works are classified as either C-pop or Mandopop, and one of his particular musical styles is known as "中國風" (Chinese wind). Similarly, JJ Lin doesn't call his music "Singapore-pop" or a variant of that name even though he is Singaporean; his works are classified as either C-pop or Mandopop. (In fact, most popular "C-pop" artists come from Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia and Hong Kong since the music recording industry in mainland China is, simply put, shit.) Also its difficult to gauge public opinion on political issues for a variety of reasons, and its best not to jump to conclusions like you have. In essence, you are pulling something out of nothing with the unsubstantiated claims you've made; what the political flavour of the year is has nothing to do with whether or not Taiwanese have a Chinese cultural and ethnic identity or not. In addition, what you have said does not apply to Fukienese who have never been under long-term occupation by the Empire of Japan nor the People's Republic of China, since Taiwan is one island of many of the ROC. Also, we're going off a slight tangent to the main topic here. I've replied to Chaosdruid, but a reply of a reply of a reply of a reply might be getting off-topic. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Canadians, Americans and many others use the language "English". Does this mean they're English themselves? No. The airline and post service were named by the KMT when they had a monopoly on power. The KMT also blocked any change of name for the postal service. As for public opinion, find me a poll that shows a majority of Taiwanese identify themselves as Chinese (exclusively). We're not talking flavour of the month, more flavour of not having the KMT ram Chinese nationalism down your throats at the end of a gun. Even President Ma is trying to claim he's Taiwanese to curry favour with the public. John Smith's (talk) 15:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

My friend, your are not an expert in Chinese culture and yet you appear to think you know more about it than several well-educated native Chinese individuals and proceeded to deride them to be disingenuous. While it's certainly possible that you, in fact, do know more about Chinese culture than the people you label to be disingenuous, the arguments you employed do not support such a notion. The term "Chinese" is usually used to describe people who are ethnically Han Chinese, just as "German" is often used to describe people who are ethnically German (i.e. do Austrians consider themselves to be Germans? How about Saxons in pre-Franco-Prussian war?). I think you have fallen into the fallacy of equating the terms "China" and "Chinese" with the regime known as "People's Republic of China". Now, please, if you are going to insult other people's knowledge, do try to make sure your criticisms make sense at all. Thanks.

Oh by the way, here's an innocent question: Were Canadians and Australians considered to be British before the British Empire fell apart? I suppose they were still considered not to be British even though the two colonies were part of the now-defunct Empire. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The term "Chinese" is usually used to describe people who are ethnically Han Chinese, just as "German" is often used to describe people who are ethnically German (i.e. do Austrians consider themselves to be Germans? I think Hitler liked to refer to Austrians as German, but most people call Germans German and Austrians Austrian these days. As for the matter in hand, I don't see why ethnicity is some overriding factor. I have "Chinese" friends who are English and American. Sure, they know where they come from, but they identify with where they live and/or where they were born. That's how a majority of Taiwanese seem to approach things (I've never met a Taiwanese person who introduced themselves as Chinese, though I guess there must be a few who do that). So I think it's better not to try to lump Taiwanese together with Chinese. John Smith's (talk) 20:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you read up on set theory and tell me what's a super-set and what's a sub-set? As well, look up the definitions of "Chinese" in your very own Webster dictionary. It'd answer your post. Thanks. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:03, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

>That's how a majority of Taiwanese seem to approach things
No, that's how a majority of Pan-Green Taiwanese approach things. Identity politics varies between those with Pan-Blue and Pan-Green sympathies, and is all in all a political issue. Those who associate with Pan-Green view themselves as Taiwanese (and "definitely not Chinese"), and their country as "Taiwan", whilst those who are Pan-Blue view themselves as both "Taiwanese" and "Chinese" (you're essentially making an irrelevant correlation by claiming that no one from Taiwan would solely refer to themselves as "Chinese" - its obvious that they would point out their geographic origins to demonstrate that they're not from "that China". You know, the evil one that uses red colours alot and they say on Fox News that they murder poor children all day every day withe Melamine and send scary, nasty soldiers into Tibet (oh dear, poor them) all day every day. Similarly, ask any Hongkonger where they are from, and they will say "Hong Kong". The current global environment makes it unlikely for someone from Taiwan to solely refer to themselves as "Chinese". Also repeat the line on set theory listed above), and refer to their nation as "ROC", with their geographical origin being the island of Taiwan. Individuals, companies, all have their identities subject to their political views. Pan-Green leaning companies tend to write things such as "台灣製造 Made in Taiwan" and "台灣產品 Product of Taiwan" (I have a packet of 超级99棒 brand biscuits in front of me that does exactly this), whilst Pan-Blue leaning companies tend to write things such as "中華民國台灣" or "Made in Taiwan, R.O.C" (my LCD monitor has this printed on the back). Then there's the "degree of severity", so to speak - if you're Pan-Green "enough", you'll call your homeland "Formosa", not Taiwan; after all, the word "Taiwan" is apparently the Chinese corruption of "What is that?" in a Taiwanese Aborigine language, or so they say; if you're really Pan-Blue (though few people actually do this), you'll even drop the "Taiwan" from the line "Republic of China (Taiwan)". -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for elaborating, Benlisquare. It's baffling that non-experts would come in, pretend to be experts, and then dismiss the things that knowledgeable people had said or provided links to. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Chaosdruid, media in Taiwan refers to the islands as Diaoyutai (Islands)... And regarding the arguments about Taiwanese/Chinese people... Uh, not appropriate here. Due to the Chinese Civil War, you can easily argue that many people living in Taiwan right now would share ancestors with people in China due to the ROC government retreating to Taiwan Island at the end of the war. People in Taiwan can have an ethnicity of "Chinese", but are "Taiwanese" due to being physically born in Taiwan. I would strongly, STRONGLY stay away from that argument in any case (it can only get messy...)

In any event, I am proposing the inclusion of the original names in the lead section by adding 尖閣諸島 next to Senkaku Islands, and the simplified/Traditional Chinese writing of Diaoyu/Diaoyutai next to Diaoyu/Diaoyutai Islands. We're already doing this in the main SI article, and I'm (more or less sure) that this makes sense. But I'd figure that people may want a say regarding what I'm proposing here... - Penwhale | 03:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

That's why I said "time to step away from the big red button". I have posted some figures on the dispute talk page on the common name issue, this one caught my attention - though I am probably not going to comment further due to not wishing to get involved in a time wasting series of "discussion" (as per the other pages and comments). Chaosdruid (talk) 04:07, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I will input my thought later. --Lvhis (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I input the version I revised for the lead section as follows for discussion:

The Senkaku Islands dispute concerns a territorial dispute on a group of uninhabited islands which are known as the Senkaku Islands to the Japanese, and also known as the Diaoyutai Islands or simply Diaoyu Islands to the Chinese. These disputed islands are currently controlled and administered by Japan, and claimed by both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan). The United States occupied the islands from 1945 to 1972 and holds a neutral stance on the dispute. The controversial diplomatic issues of sovereignty are marked by a complex array of economic and political considerations and consequences.

References:

1. Shaw, Han-yi (1999). in Contemporary Asian Studies, No 3 (ed.). The Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands dispute: Its History and an Analysis of the Ownership Claims of the PRC, ROC, and Japan. Baltimore, USA: School of Law, University of Maryland. ISBN 0-925153-67-2. (On page 10) ... a chain of tiny islets commonly known today to the Chinese as the Diayutai (or simply Diaoyu) Islands 釣魚台列嶼, and Senkaku Islands 尖閣列島 to the Japanese.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: editors list (link)
2. Ogura, Junko (10-14-2010). "Japanese party urges Google to drop Chinese name for disputed islands". CNN World. US. CNN. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
3. Netherlands Institute for the Law of the Sea (NILOS). (2000). International Organizations and the Law of the Sea, pp. 107-108., p. 107, at Google Books
4. Lee, Seokwoo et al. (2002). Territorial disputes among Japan, Taiwan and China concerning the Senkaku Islands, pp. 11-12., p. 11, at Google Books
5. Finney, John W. "Senate Endorses Okinawa Treaty; Votes 84 to 6 for Island's Return to Japan," New York Times. November 11, 1971.

Everyone above has made a lot comments, and I agree with Penwhale, Bob, and benlisquare. What I want to say is let us stick on related RS, otherwise we will go out of topic and make this discussion like a forum far beyond the lead section of this wp page. When I say "related", it means the RS stated directly these islands with their names. Instead of pointing the related countries, here it is pointing the language: "... to the Japanese, ... to the Chinese" . Regarding the name in Chinese Language (Taiwanese language is one of the many branches of Chinese language, regardless political things), here is described as said in the RS book written by a Taiwan scholar. For the official stand from both side across the Taiwan Strait, it was said in this book, on Page 37: (V. The PRC and ROC's Positions and Evidence Supporting The Chinese Claim.) "While the governments of the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China have ... each separately issued numorous official statements reiterating their claims over the islands, their positions are essentially identical since they are based on a shared historical past". If one has different views, please provide related RS. The words from one's friends cannot be accepted as RS by wiki. The three wikipideans whose opinions I agreed on have also provide some meaningful RSs. --Lvhis (talk) 22:32, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

You're still trying to push the same edits you made previously. You make no account for Taiwanese and, more importantly, these terms are known outside of Japan and China. Can you please explain why we must limit recognition to two countries? Why not just leave it as currently drafted, where all three names are identified as existing?

Also we can't quote a US newspaper article from 4 decades ago to quote a current US position (though I can see this is not a new edit). John Smith's (talk) 07:14, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Please be advised that Benlisquare and I have replied to your allegations that (1) Taiwanese are not Chinese and (2) Taiwanese do not know what's "Diaoyu". Since you've accused the former of being disingenuous, it'd not be very nice to ignore his reply. In the event that he is completely wrong and you were, in fact, completely right, you should correct him on his mistakes. In the event that he is right and you were, in fact, pretending to be an expert in an unfamiliar subject, then you should acknowledge the mistake and tell him that he was not, in fact, disingenuous as you've previously proclaimed. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 08:16, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to go around and around in circles with either of you. Most people around the world refer to others by nationality, and at the very least it is confusing to in this circumstance refer to people by ethnicity. If you can't accept that, too bad. But it's not that important an issue. The main issue is why Lvhis feels the current text is so wrong and why he wants to focus on what words are used by Japan and China, ignoring the rest of the world. John Smith's (talk) 13:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Now, I see you are a spokesperson for "most people". I did not realize you have such authority. As I've pointed out earlier, German is an example where both nationality and ethnicity applies. If you are unable to comprehend such a notion, then there is a very serious problem since you are an European and your educational background is History. Here's a link to the Misplaced Pages article on Germans (and please correct it if you think it's wrong).

You know... it isn't really nice to call others disingenuous, then proceed to lose the argument, and then proceed to accuse others of talking in circles. Although nobody in Misplaced Pages is obliged to be open-minded and cooperative, these are certainly desired traits. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

You don't even understand why you're wrong, do you? You raised the issue of Germany and Austria. I pointed out that even if Austrians could be considered "German", no one bar ultra-nationalist nutters refers to them as German. They're referred to as Austrains. I don't care about whether we call Chinese people Chinese because they live in China or they're Han. It's Taiwanese we're talking about, i.e. the people that don't live in the place called China. John Smith's (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, are you being serious? You're saying that I have to provide a source that people generally refer to others by nationality instead of ethnicity? So, in fact, people don't refer to Americans (bar native Americans), they call people that live in North America "English", "German", "Caucasian", etc? John Smith's (talk) 19:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, we are being serious. The fact North Americans do not often identify themselves based on their ancestry (which are often quite mixed anyway) doesn't mean people do not refer to others by ethnicity. Examples of people being referred to by ethnicity include Serbs, Germans, and Hungarians. While I would assume this is common knowledge to European historians, I wonder if it is taught in every history curriculum in major universities. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way, our British friend appears to be trying to edit the Chinese people page after I've cited it as part of my counter-argument. Specifically, there is a listing of people who fall under the category of "Chinese people" and our friend tried to remove the line that contained "People who hold citizenship of Republic of China (Taiwan) (See political status of Taiwan)". Interestingly, his change has already been reverted . It will be interesting to see how the BRD cycle will go with that. Don't forget to invite us when that happens. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 01:09, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I think Lvhis's edit is unnecessary because this article is about a dispute not about the islands. However if you insist to include the edit, I will propose a more accurate wording, "The islands are known as Diaoyu Islands to the Chinese and Diaoyutai to the Taiwanese" with the following reliable sources.

• "China is involved in a territorial dispute with Japan and Taiwan over the sovereignty of islands known in China as the Diaoyu, in Taiwan as the Diaoyutai, and in Japan as the Senkakus."
• "the Senkaku islands, a group of five islets and three barren rocks that lie between Taiwan and the Japanese island of Okinawa known as the Pinnacle Islands in English, Diaoyu Islands to the Chinese and Diaoyutai to the Taiwanese."
• "China calls them the Diaoyu Islands, Taiwan calls them the Diaoyutai, and Japan calls them the Senkaku Islands."
• "The PRC uses Diaoyudao (Diaoyu means “fishing”; dao means “island”), and Taiwan uses Diaoyutai."
• "In mainland China, the islets are usually referred to as the Diaoyu Islands. As this article is about the movement organized by Chinese students from Taiwan, it uses “Diaoyutai Islands,” which is the name better known in Taiwan."

This claim is proved to be true by the following Google site search results:

• "Diaoyutai Islands" site:gov.tw 1200
• "Diaoyu Islands" site:gov.tw 228
• "Diaoyu Islands" site:gov.cn 1870
• "Diaoyutai Islands" site:gov.cn 2

Providing an example of the exception doesn't prove the two names are equally called in the countries. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:26, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Minor morphological variations among the two Chinese names are not important. Both the inhabitants of PRC and ROC are familiar with both names and so a more accurate way to express the sentences would be to say "... known as Senkaku Islands in Japanese and Diaoyu or Diaoyutai Islands in Chinese". As someone who regularly reads Hong Kong newspapers, I can confidently say "Diaoyutai" is very commonly used in Hong Kong and Macau. Needless to say, Hong Kong and Macau are both cities within the PRC. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:19, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Phoenix or Phoenix7777, although you listed several reference links there, you still just went around and around. We have discussed this at here and what Bob's comment above is reenforcing what his and my comments there. If several of us said you Phoenix7777 now kept some stand on the Diaoyu Islands issue with us or "our DI side", and you yourself argued against us and said "No", could we or others else refuted you with "you are just providing an example of the exception that doesn't prove your real stand"? It sounds so ridiculous. Back to the topic, once again the change I proposed is to clarify a misleading that "the Japanese name 'Senkaku Islands' is the English name" and the territory dispute over the Islands even starting with the naming. As for the naming, what I proposed is only indicating the language, Japanese and Chinese. "Diaoyutai" and "Diaoyu" are mandarin pronunciation of Chinese, no matter which one is used more in the mainland China or Taiwan. If you want to emphasize the Taiwanese as the Taiwanese language, Hokkien, the Islands name is called "Tiaoyutai" or "Tiaoyu", which are much less used in English. Also again, Taiwanese/Hokkien is one of the many branches of Chinese language. If you complain that Taiwan (ROC) is not given a place in this lead section, your complaint is groundless. See the second sentence, "These disputed islands are currently controlled and administered by Japan, and claimed by both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan).". It is still there and I did not change it. Regarding whether the Mainland China and Taiwan are two countries or just two regions of one country, I give you an advice that do not push Misplaced Pages to take sides before the out-wiki world make this issue clear cut. Your attempt and attitude on this is very POV pushing. I used a very reliable and related source written by a Taiwan expert on this Islands dispute which clearly stated that "While the governments of the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China have ... issued numorous official statements reiterating their claims over the islands, their positions are essentially identical since they are based on a shared historical past" with listing related RSs in his book. Up to date things are still like these. When there was a conflict or collision over these Islands happened between Japan and Taiwan (ROC) , the Mainland China (PRC) only and always condemned Japan; and same when conflict or collision happened over these Islands between Japan and the Mainland China, Taiwan only condemned Japan. If you do not agree, please give direct and official reliable sources. --Lvhis (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis, I think we should also wrap things up with our friend User:John Smith's. He and User:ChaosDruid endorsed one or more of the following points:

• Chinese people know as the "Diaoyu Islands"... do not know the islands as "Diaoyu"
• Taiwanese people are not Chinese

Since these form the basis of John Smith's arguments and that he has been unable to provide convincing counter-arguments when he has been unambiguously refuted, I think you should ask him in his talk page once more for further opinion from him in the event that he is no longer providing more arguments. I've previously raised the concern of indefinite filibuster to User:Magog the Ogre regarding his new BRD policy. I believe this will be a pretty good test case. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Then I have to post this again. The islands article in zh treats the names separately. The first sentence of the lead is "钓鱼岛及其附属岛屿，台湾称为钓鱼台列屿，日本语称为“尖閣諸島...", "Diaoyu Islands , they are called as Diaoyutai Islands in Taiwan, as Senkaku Shoto in Japan...". Lvhis, you know that well as you were the most recent editor of the article as of this post of mine. And the dispute article in zh does not refer to the names. Oda Mari (talk) 10:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

What I read when I clicked on your link is "釣魚台列嶼，或称钓鱼岛及其附属岛屿，日本語稱爲「尖閣諸島」，琉球語稱為「魚釣諸島」（ユクン･クバジマ）", which is reasonable and almost exactly as what I suggested. It's possible that there are discrepancies between the four versions of zh articles (PRC-simplified, HK/Macau-trad, Malaysia/Singapore-trad, and Taiwan-trad). And as you've pointed out, none of the names listed in the zh articles are exactly like the ones being widely referred to by RS and by us. This is due to the fact that the names like 釣魚台列嶼 and 称钓鱼岛及其附属岛屿 are "official" names, much like the "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" where we tend to refer to as the "United Kingdom" or "Britain". For people who are not proficient in Chinese or Kanzi, I'd also point out that 釣魚台列嶼 (Diaoyutai island chain) and 称钓鱼岛及其附属岛屿 (Diaoyu island and associated islands) basically mean the same. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

(Oho, (edit conflict)) I saw Bob's post last night and was preparing a revised version but did not have time to post here. Oda Mari, I will reply you after posting my revised version. I take Penwhale's and Bob's suggestions and revise the proposed edit as follows:

The Senkaku Islands dispute concerns a territorial dispute on a group of uninhabited islands, known as the Senkaku Islands (尖閣諸島) in Japanese, and also known as the Diaoyu Islands (钓鱼岛群岛) or Diaoyutai Islands (釣魚台列嶼) in Chinese. These disputed islands are currently controlled and administered by Japan, and claimed by both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan). The United States occupied the islands from 1945 to 1972 and holds a neutral stance on the dispute. The controversial diplomatic issues of sovereignty are marked by a complex array of economic and political considerations and consequences.

References:

1. Shaw, Han-yi (1999). in Contemporary Asian Studies, No 3 (ed.). The Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands dispute: Its History and an Analysis of the Ownership Claims of the PRC, ROC, and Japan. Baltimore, USA: School of Law, University of Maryland. ISBN 0-925153-67-2. (On page 10) ... a chain of tiny islets commonly known today to the Chinese as the Diayutai (or simply Diaoyu) Islands 釣魚台列嶼, and Senkaku Islands 尖閣列島 to the Japanese.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: editors list (link)
2. Ogura, Junko (10-14-2010). "Japanese party urges Google to drop Chinese name for disputed islands". CNN World. US. CNN. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
3. Netherlands Institute for the Law of the Sea (NILOS). (2000). International Organizations and the Law of the Sea, pp. 107-108., p. 107, at Google Books
4. Lee, Seokwoo et al. (2002). Territorial disputes among Japan, Taiwan and China concerning the Senkaku Islands, pp. 11-12., p. 11, at Google Books
5. Finney, John W. "Senate Endorses Okinawa Treaty; Votes 84 to 6 for Island's Return to Japan," New York Times. November 11, 1971.

Oda Mari, I have given the reason at least 3 times above why making such edit change: to clarify an already effective misleading that "'Senkaku Islands' is the English name" for these disputed Islands. Penwhale, Bob, and benlisquare agreed on this change. When you cited zh-wiki page of "zh:釣魚台列嶼" (Diaoyutai Islands), you did not cite a correct version. There is a non/simplified/traditional version of Chinese conversion function key on the left top of the page, and you should choose the "不转换" (non-conversion) to see the very original version of this page. Under this non-conversion version, the lead sentence is "釣魚台列嶼，或称钓鱼岛及其附属岛屿，日本語稱爲「尖閣諸島，琉球語稱為「魚釣諸島」（ユクン･クバジマ）". And in the "命名(Naming)" section, it states "在官方文件中，該群島在中華民國稱作「釣魚臺列嶼」；中華人民共和國的官方新聞稿有時寫「釣魚島及其附屬島嶼」；在民間和傳媒中，「釣魚台」及「釣魚台群島」均可泛指整個釣魚台列嶼。「釣魚台」／「釣魚島」一詞既可以僅指主島，有時亦可全部群島。其中主島「釣魚島」在日本稱為「魚釣島」。" There is no naming fighting about the title/name in zh-wiki even the page title is used 釣魚台列嶼 but not 钓鱼岛群岛 or 钓鱼岛及其附属岛屿. If your Chinese level good enough, we can have a discussion on the talk page of zh-wiki there. In zh-wiki, no one believes or can be misled that "Senkaku Islands 尖閣諸島" is the English name. But if you prefer, I can add such things with RSs in zh:釣魚台列嶼主權問題. Here again, "Diaoyutai" and "Diaoyu" are mandarin pronunciation of Chinese and the expression in English with minor morphological variation, no matter which one is used more in the mainland China or Taiwan.

Bob, I will wait for a reasonable time after this revised version posted. If there is no meaningful argument with related RS on this draft, I will check or consult with Magog the Ogre if I can finish the "D" of this start the "B" of next cycle of "BRD" (or as start the "B" of a new cycle?). Last time I indeliberately broke R→D and was reported by John Smith's and blocked by Magog the Ogre. I saw your question in Magog the Ogre's talk page and his answer, I trust him. --Lvhis (talk) 18:34, 29 July 2011 (UTC) {{collapse top|title="Unhelpful off-topic content"}

Acknowledging Lvhis' diff here.

WP:VNT constrains us again to investigate, e.g.,

• 1. What is the quality of the sources used?

• 2. What is the consensus of scholars in the field; and does each cited source reflect that consensus?

• 3. Are the sources actually supporting the assertions for which they are cited?

• 4. Are unsourced assertions being used?

No, for example -- The so-called "Taiwan scholar" Han-yi Shaw is a too insubstantial for the argument Lvhis proposes -- see WP:Weight, e.g., Shaw, Han-yi at WorldCat/OCLC.

No, for example -- In this 2010 context my research introduced here and here, the misleading NILOS citation stands out as a WP:Red flag in the "new" framing" Lvhis contrives -- see WP:V#Exceptional claims require exceptional sources.

Once again, a too familiar gambit falls apart when subjected to meaningful scrutiny.

QED ≠ Misplaced Pages:But it's true! --Tenmei (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis, I notice that you underline the word meaningful. A persistent opinion which is expressed succinctly by STSC here is meaningful, but not persuasive:

" ... the title with the Japanese name is never "NPOV" as long as Japan is one of the participants in the territorial dispute."

Do you perceive this as axiomatic? --Tenmei (talk) 21:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

My interpretation of the first part of Tenmei's post is that he thinks that particular scholar is unreliable. In this case, he has not provided any evidence. Without reliable evidence against the credibility of a particular source, such claims are meaningless and do not deserve to be paid attention to. As for the second part of Tenmei's post, it is incomprehensible to me. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:09, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Bob. Tenmei, there are two RSs for that sentence. One is from the Taiwan scholar and one is from CNN. Again (I am almost tired to have to repeat this again, again, and again ...), the main point of the change is to clarify that "SI" is the Japanese name. and of course at the same time the Chinese names need to be mentioned. Tenmei's post is out of focus or topic. --Lvhis (talk) 05:11, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Expressed with specificity and simplicity, these are conventional issues in the evaluation of proposed changes:

• 1. What is the quality of the sources used?

• 2. What is the consensus of scholars in the field; and does each cited source reflect that consensus?

• 3. Are the sources actually supporting the assertions for which they are cited?

• 4. Are unsourced assertions being used?

Although expressed in the form of open-ended questions, these aspects of article credibility are not arbitrary. These issues are not diminished when you use the word "meaningless" as a derisive smokescreen -- compare WP:RS/AC + WP:SYNTH. --Tenmei (talk) 07:12, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

It appears to be another set of incomprehensible text that resembles some sort of accusations. Unfortunately, no supporting arguments spotted. I will give Tenmei one last chance to clarify his position before ignoring him completely in this thread. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 07:24, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction strategy

Mere contradiction as a strategy is deprecated at WP:DR; and it is inadequate in our specific context. A one sentence comment John Smith's added here in mid-October 2010 has proven to be prescient and on-point:

"It's ridiculous to keep proposing name changes until people come up with the 'right' answer."

Summarizing the history of serial assaults on the status quo in threads on this active talk page and in archived talk pages:

As a context, perhaps it will be helpful to revisit Bobthefish2's words here from December 2010:

"I still do not see a convincing argument coming from any party here that suggests "Senkaku Islands" must be the name to be used. The fact that it has been the status quo for 4 years isn't a good excuse."

Characteristically, this conclusory observation misconstrues and misallocates responsibility for what must be done next -- see WP:Burden --Tenmei (talk) 17:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• I treat this post of Tenmei as a one irrelevant to the discussion above "Lead section" as nothing related to the draft. As for the claim he insists on that "'Senkaku Islands' is the commonly used English name", it has been discussed pretty well during the mediation. "'Diaoyu Islands' is the commonly used English name" too and is even slightly more used in English than "SI". Recently this topic was continued in the "SI" talk page . --Lvhis (talk) 19:44, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

{{collapse bottom}}

• I took the liberty of collapsing this chunk of text. Tenmei was given 3 chances to clarify his position and support his arguments in a concise manner. Unfortunately, he chose not to listen. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis and Bobthefish2 -- No, mere contradiction as a strategy is deprecated at WP:DR.

No -- defending the credibility of our project and this article is not meaningless.

Lvhis devalues the serial, substantive diffs of John Smith's, Phoenix7777 and Oda Mari as not "meaningful" here. The derisive label is a variant of contradiction, and it remains only a label, a hollow word. It does not engender constructive engagement.

No -- disagreement is not incomprehensible.

Bobthefish2 denigrates my words as "incomprehensible" here; but this is only a descriptive word. It is only contradiction, not invalidation.

No -- careful reading and engagement is not irrelevant.

Lvhis dismisses my words as "irrelevant" here; but this too is only a knee-jerk reaction, indistinguishable from contradiction.

No. The steamroller-like pattern of diffs from Lvhis and Bobthefish2 do not augur well for a a process which identifies elements of consensus.

In contrast, the bibliographic reference sources cited at Senkaku Islands and Senkaku Islands dispute reflect the current consensus among published reliable sources.

Bottom line. Senkaku Islands is (a) the commonly used English name; and (b) the neutral English name -- see here and here. --Tenmei (talk) 22:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Ridiculous

A one sentence comment John Smith's added here in mid-October 2010 deserves repeating:

"It's ridiculous to keep proposing name changes until people come up with the 'right' answer."

This does not need to be the problem it has become. The following show that John Smith's perceived the issues accurately:

A. " ... the title with the Japanese name is never "NPOV" as long as Japan is one of the participants in the territorial dispute." -- STSC 12:12, 3 May 2011

B. "... why making such edit change: to clarify an already effective misleading that 'Senkaku Islands' is the English name" for these disputed Islands." -- Lvhis 18:34, 29 July 2011

C. "... the main point of the change is to clarify that "SI" is the Japanese name." --Lvhis 05:11, 30 July 2011

These words deserve the emphasis this diff creates for them. --Tenmei (talk) 23:04, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• As Bob pointed out for more than one time, Tenmei your recent posts are really incomprehensible. However, to make the point very clear, please answer the questions below in a very straightforward manner:
  

1) Is the "Senkaku Islands" the Japanese name for these Islands? Just answer "Yes" or "No".

2) Is the "Pinnacle Islands" the real English name for these Islands? Just answer "Yes" or "No".

If your answer is "No" for both questions above, do provide direct RS. For the answer "Yes", I am giving one more RS written by a Japan scholar Unryu Suganuma (菅沼雲龍), his book "Sovereign Rights and Territorial Space in Sino-Japanese Relations -Irredentism and the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands". I will add this RS in the proposed draft. If you answer "No" but cannot provide direct RS, your point is just an OR which wp cannot accept, and you may be assumed to intend to keep misleading the encyclopedia readers that the "'Senkaku Islands' is the English name". If you want to keep arguing for "SI is the commonly used English name", your argument shall have to direct to the SI talk page there, but is irrelevant to the discussion in the section "Lead section" here above, i.e. not meaningful. I think I have make the point very clear. --Lvhis (talk) 17:07, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis -- stop. I simply won't take the bait; but at the same time, I am not failing to acknowledge the tactics and strategy which are too familiar.

Bluntly, you are gaming the system, are you not?

I can do no better than to adopt the words of Qwyrxian as if they were my own. Your edit history compels me to acknowledge that

the problem is that any comments I make like this are useless ... and really, even if you could be blocked (say, if this went to ArbCom), you have nothing to lose, since you're not really interesting in actually editing Misplaced Pages, anyway.

Bottom line: I don't know what to do. My words are measured; and your escalating urgency draws attention to itself. --Tenmei (talk) 17:50, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Unryu Suganuma -- new article created. --Tenmei (talk) 20:09, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Conflated issues

The development of arguments and counterarguments at Talk:Senkaku Islands and Talk:Senkaku Islands dispute and here in the mediation venue have conflated

(a) disputing what is the English-language common name for our articles about disputed islands in the East China Sea; and

(b) disputing what is a "neutral" name.

For example, "Google (and other search systems) do not aim for a neutral point of view ... Google is specifically not a source of neutral titles" according to Misplaced Pages:Search engine test#Neutrality. --Tenmei (talk) 01:29, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Misinformation/synthesis

The misinformation/synthesis of Lvhis needs further discussion -- see here

• diff 01:05, 1 August 2011 Lvhis (68,363 bytes) (finished the "D" of a cycle of BRD.)
• diff 01:18, 1 August 2011 Lvhis m (68,360 bytes) (fix)

Changes in opening paragraph require rigorous scrutiny because of the purposeful "framing" which has been made explicit, e.g.,

A. " ... the title with the Japanese name is never "NPOV" as long as Japan is one of the participants in the territorial dispute." -- STSC 12:12, 3 May 2011

B. "... why making such edit change: to clarify an already effective misleading that 'Senkaku Islands' is the English name" for these disputed Islands." -- Lvhis 18:34, 29 July 2011

C. "... the main point of the change is to clarify that "SI" is the Japanese name." --Lvhis 05:11, 30 July 2011

For these reasons, the changes proposed by Lvhis are problematic. --Tenmei (talk) 20:10, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis's edits were reverted here -- see also here. --Tenmei (talk) 20:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis -- Let's re-visit an unanswered diff here. As you will recall, you have not responded to the issues and questions which are underscored anew by the revert just made.

Perhaps now would be a good time to answer a question which remains unaddressed for many months: Can you please explain where you don't see consensus for the current name? As you know, several previously uninvolved editors commented that the name as it stands is the correct English name.

Now would be a good time to acknowledge the reasonable points which have been presented by other participants in our talk page threads. Please recognize the mild language and non-provocative tone in the diffs posted by John Smith's and by Phoenix7777; and I would hope you will reply in the same way.

Please remember that what we are looking for is not the "neutral" name, but the name which is most commonly used in English.

Your active engagement with specifics is needed. If not now, when ...? -- Tenmei 20:30, 24 May 2011

This old diff suggests that there is a recurring non-responsive pattern. Change is within your ability to control. --Tenmei (talk) 03:49, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Re Tenmei's reversion

Tenmei, your reversion was very non-constructive. Last time I asked you two straightforward questions but you was not able to answer them buy making such excuse "I don't know what to do." Now you reverted the version which has been undergone and sustained discussion in which questions and challenges had been discussed, answered, and clarified as shown in the section "Lead section". You complain that this version is with misinformation and synthesis (why did not you complain such before?). Now I list the two versions, one you reverted (let's call it version A), one you reverted to (version B), as below and compare them:

Version A :

The Senkaku Islands dispute concerns a territorial dispute on a group of uninhabited islands, known as the Senkaku Islands (尖閣諸島) in Japanese, and known as the Diaoyu Islands (钓鱼岛群岛) or Diaoyutai Islands (釣魚台列嶼) in Chinese. These disputed islands are currently controlled and administered by Japan, and claimed by both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan). The United States occupied the islands from 1945 to 1972 and holds a neutral stance on the dispute. The controversial diplomatic issues of sovereignty are marked by a complex array of economic and political considerations and consequences.

Version B :

The Senkaku Islands dispute concerns a territorial dispute on a group of uninhabited islands, the Senkaku Islands, which are also known as the Diaoyu or Diaoyutai Islands. These disputed islands are currently controlled and administered by Japan, and claimed by both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan). The United States occupied the islands from 1945 to 1972 and holds a neutral stance on the dispute. The controversial diplomatic issues of sovereignty are marked by a complex array of economic and political considerations and consequences.

So the only difference between version A and B is this part:

..., known as the Senkaku Islands (尖閣諸島) in Japanese, and known as the Diaoyu Islands (钓鱼岛群岛) or Diaoyutai Islands (釣魚台列嶼) in Chinese. ...

..., the Senkaku Islands, which are also known as the Diaoyu or Diaoyutai Islands. ...

You disagree the version A with your so called reason "misinformation/synthesis". You must pinpoint which part and which word in version A is misinforming and made by synthesis. straightforward! --Lvhis (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not speaking for Tenmei (couldn't, if even I wanted to), but Version B is correct, so long as the article title(s) remain "Senkaku Islands (dispute)". Should that change in the future, then Version A will be correct. I don't know about synthesis, misinformation, or whatever, but it's just stylistically wrong. The title of the article is "Senkaku Islands dispute", so we don't need to phrase it as in A. Speaking of which...I suppose it's time for me to return to Talk:Senkaku Islands... Qwyrxian (talk) 00:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Stupid minor note: my last edit summary was incorrect; I meant that B is correct for now, just like the text says above. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I am very.. very glad you have recovered from your stress. "Senkaku Islands dispute" is "Senkaku Islands dispute" and not "Senkaku Islands (dispute)". The difference is that this page should technically not be a sub-category of "Senkaku Islands" but rather a page that details a dispute - a dispute which we gave some arbitrary name to (?), in fact. As a result, the stylistic issues you raised are not applicable. :) --Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that's fun and all, but you're twisting words. Currently, the working name for the islands on Misplaced Pages is Senkaku Islands. That's why that's the name of the article, not the other way around. For example, if there were an article "List of islands in the East China Sea", you couldn't call it Diaoyu there (this issue comes up, for instance, when people try to change the name of the islands from "Sea of Japan (East Sea)" to "East Sea (Sea of Japan)" in articles like Japan-Korea disputes. Things come in their proper order; the order here is determining Misplaced Pages's name of the place first. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:41, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I am not very sure what you mean by "twisting words". Nobody said we have to rename the island names in "Sea of Japan" at the moment. Rather, we are simply talking about how to introduce these islands in a page about a dispute that we currently called the "Senkaku Island dispute". I am not very sure why you are having problems with the issue of "proper order". As far as I can see, introduced the Japanese name first followed by the Chinese names. Are you very certain that I am "twisting words"? --Bobthefish2 (talk) 07:08, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian -- In view of the reasoning expressed in your edit here, will you join me in asking Feezo to mediate the persisting disagreement we have about the harm you caused with your contributions at Talk:Senkaku Islands#U.S. Control prior to 1972? --Tenmei (talk) 16:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that I understand the premise Lvhis puts forward in this thread. And yes, I think I understand the crisp analysis offered by Qwyrxian. I do not reject either when I describe both as premature untimely.

The new emphasis on BRD causes us to focus first on a "strategic" mis-statement by Lvhis: "All questions and challenges raised from other editors have been answered and clarified." This short sentence shows that Lvhis understands that there are significant "questions and challenges" which stand in line before the ones which are now urged. For example, among the diffs which are inconsistent with Lvhis' strategic assertion include:

1. Oda Mari, I have given the reason at least 3 times above why making such edit change: to clarify an already effective misleading that 'Senkaku Islands' is the English name" for these disputed Islands. -- Lvhis 18:34, 29 July 2011
2. Tenmei's post is out of focus or topic. --Lvhis 05:11, 30 July 2011
3. I treat this post of Tenmei as a one irrelevant to the discussion above "Lead section" as nothing related to the draft .... --Lvhis 19:44, 30 July 2011

To be very very clear: Questions and challenges raised from other editors are

• not answered
• not clarified

I am willing to wait patiently in line behind John Smith's, Phoenix7777 and Oda Mari. --Tenmei (talk) 01:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

In an effort to appear cooperative, let me just point out that WP:Synthesis + WP:RS are on point in explaining the mismatch between the two columns below:

"A" FACTOIDS "... why making such edit change: to clarify an already effective misleading that 'Senkaku Islands' is the English name" for these disputed Islands." -- Lvhis 18:34, 29 July 2011 "... the main point of the change is to clarify that "SI" is the Japanese name." --Lvhis 05:11, 30 July 2011 "... gaming BRD cycle to prevent revision of the lead section, and intending to misleading readers the "SI" is the English name." -- Lvhis 22:36, 1 August 2011

"B" SOURCES Shaw, Han-yi. (1999). "The Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands dispute: Its History and an Analysis of the Ownership Claims of the PRC, ROC, and Japan," Contemporary Asian Studies. Ogura, Junko (10-14-2010). "Japanese party urges Google to drop Chinese name for disputed islands," CNN World. Suganuma, Unryu. (2001). Sovereign Rights and Territorial Space in Sino-Japanese Relations: Irredentism and the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands, pp. 89-92. Netherlands Institute for the Law of the Sea (NILOS). (2000). International Organizations and the Law of the Sea, pp. 107-108. Lee, Seokwoo et al. (2002). Territorial disputes among Japan, Taiwan and China concerning the Senkaku Islands, pp. 11-12. Finney, John W. "Senate Endorses Okinawa Treaty; Votes 84 to 6 for Island's Return to Japan," New York Times. November 11, 1971.

Our conventional editing practices deprecate "synthesis." The extraordinary claims in "A" above are not supported by the list in "B" above. --Tenmei (talk) 04:55, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Please note that according to WP:V#Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, extra caution is reasonable in specific instances, including:

• surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;
• reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, or against an interest they had previously defended;
• claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions

This was explicitly referenced here in advance of the revert. --Tenmei (talk) 13:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• Tenmei, for your comments of this one and the above one at 16:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC), regarding finishing the "D" of last cycle of BRD and current disagreemnt, just remind you to pay proper respect to admin Magog the Ogre, who is also a witness of the discusion here. --Lvhis (talk) 21:38, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Discussion between Q and L

Qwyrxian, welcome back. Regarding your comments above, despite that you said "I'm not speaking for Tenmei", effectively you were. Sorry I don't think you have given enough specific justifications to support Tenmei's reverting version A back to version B. Let us start the questions that Tenmei was not able to answer in straightforward manner:

1) Is the "Senkaku Islands" the Japanese name for these Islands? "Yes" or "No"?

2) Is the "Pinnacle Islands" the real English name for these Islands? "Yes" or "No"?

3) Which part and which word (need to pinpoint) in version A is misinforming and made by synthesis?

For question 3) we can leave it to Tenmei. Please answer the 1) and 2), then we can go next step to clarify further. I hope we can calmly discuss this as we did there "Talk:Senkaku Islands#Pinnacle neutral?". Thanks. --Lvhis (talk) 21:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis, you know that my stance has always been that "Senkaku Islands" is the real English name for the islands (probably, almost certainly, but not 100% sure; it definitely was the English name 20 years ago, there's a small chance that in the last few years the name has changed, that's what we're trying to decide in DR), and that "尖閣諸島" is the name in Japanese (which is usually transliterated to "Senkaku-shotou" or "Senkaku-rettou"). So I guess my answer to questions 1 & 2 is "No". I didn't say that version A is synthesis (that was Tenmei's words, and, I believe, wrong); I did say that the current English name in Misplaced Pages is "Senkaku Islands", though, as always, y'all are hoping and arguing that will change (and may actually prevail...who can say for sure before the final RfC and/or Arbcom?). So long as we're saying SI is the name, then that's how it should be represented in each sentence, not just in the article titles. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Tenmei, I don't care what you said in a pile of words but only care whether you have answered those questions in straightforward manner. If you cannot answer, you fail. Also, now I want to discuss with Qwyrxian calmly first. Qwyrxian, I will reply you tomorrow, now it is too late. --Lvhis (talk) 04:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Qwyrxian, I knew your stance saying that "Senkaku Islands" was the English name, but after the unsuccessful mediation and our unfinished calm discussion in that "Pinnacle neutral?" section I thought you might changed a little bit. It was a sort of something beyond my expectation that you answered "No" for questions 1) and 2). Maybe something out-of-topic has made you change back. Okay, now as I asked for Tenmei before (see here), please provide direct RS for your answering "No" to "'Senkaku Islands' is the Japanese name for these Islands" and "'Pinnacle Islands' is the real English name for these Islands", or for your "Yes" to "'Senkaku Islands' is the real English name for the Islands". I think you understand that I emphasized "direct" here. You are also very clear that Misplaced Pages cannot accept "OR". For answering "Yes" to the two questions mentioned, the RSs in version A gave direct sources and support, that one was from a Taiwan scholar, one was from a Japanese scholar Unryu Suganuma (菅沼雲龍) (you checked his book when you input your comment or question there a week ago), and one was from CNN that was firstly provided by Penwhale. Regardless that the part of the Japanese name "shotou 諸島" or "rettou 列島" has been translated into "islands", the whole name is still the Japanese name expressed as in English form or Romanized form, same as the part of Chinese name "qundao 群島" or "lieyu 列嶼" has been translated into "islands" for the Chinese name "Diaoyutai Islands". (BTW, Version A has RSs which Version B is lack. When Tenmei reverted Version A back to Version B containing , he was very gross in deleting RSs for such reversion. His such reversion can be called, using a word he uses quite often, "anti-wikipedia". Version A was also a sort of consensus after discussions). Back to here, I am waiting for your RS, and then we will go next step. --Lvhis (talk) 17:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't change because the mediation never came to any conclusion, despite your repeated claims of proving every single point of your own and disproving all of mine. As I said over on Talk:Senkaku Islands, I think mediation proved 1) DI may have a small advantage, currently, in some Google searches, but 2) Google searches are extremely flawed and provide almost now valuable information, and 3) I'm not certain that the parameters chosen for those searches represented fair treatment of the matter. I still hold, as I always have, that the encyclopedia and almanac evidence is far stronger, and that major non-Japanese/PRC/ROC governments use the term SI. I hold that what we need to do is try to see if major news publications have a "style guide"; i.e., if, for example, CNN always uses SI, or Time magazine always uses DI/SI, or The Guardian always mentions both in long detailed prose. In other words, I still see the weight of evidence favoring SI, though I admit that there is more work to be done to see if there is other, contrary evidence, particularly from news sources (I mean, I would prefer scholarly sources, but I don't have the necessary access to actually read the journal articles, so there's not much I can do on that end). I'm hoping that, once everybody is satisfied that they have gathered enough evidence, and gotten their arguments into a good shape, that we can hold an RfC and be done with this. I expect it will be several weeks to months before we're all ready for that, though. Meanwhile, until such time as the name changes, the sentence must be written with respect to Misplaced Pages's current choice of name. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

A friendly reminder (that you will pretend not to hear): It was shown that catalogue searches in Library of Congress, WorldCat, Google Scholar, HathiTrust, and JSTOR all favoured "our" side. Since most of them were all about scholarly articles and published materials, dismissing that as some "Google searches" is quite grossly misleading... especially when you and others had very enthusiastically supported these searches (up until they no longer supported "your side") and they were the basis of the current article name's legitimacy. I'll leave the rest to Lvhis. :-p --Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:22, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, you have mixed up or confused two different questions or issues here: one is "which name is/was from which language", and another is "which name is more commonly used in English". For the later one, we know there is no any RS directly to tell which name is more commonly used in English, and we have discussed what way and what search method, search engine, and so on even involving statistical analysis in certain extent should be used. Bob responded some above and he also made some arguments against your points in SI talk page. But this one "which name is more commonly used in English" is nothing to do with the Version A vs Version B and the two questions I asked then you answered. To answer "which name is from which language" does nothing with "your stance" and "my stance". It can only get from direct Reliable Sources. No matter what stance you take for these Islands dispute and wiki page naming dispute, a name from that language is from that language, and there are a big amount of Reliable Sources telling this in a clear cut and straightforward manner. "Senkaku Islands" is the Japanese name, and the real English name for the Islands is "Pinnacle Islands". This is not "my stance" but the clear cut naming historical knowledge unanimously described and recorded in many, many RSs. Here I give you one more RS from another Japanese writer in addition to Unryu Suganuma (菅沼雲龍), Kimie Hara (原貴美恵, now living in Canada), her book "Cold War frontiers in the Asia-Pacific: divided territories in the San Francisco system", page 51. Let me re-list the RSs for such text that "For these Islands, 'Senkaku Islands' is the Japanese name, 'Diaoyu' or 'Diaoyutai Islands' is the Chinese name, 'Pinnacle Islands' is the real English name":

1. Shaw, Han-yi (1999). Contemporary Asian Studies, No 3 (ed.). The Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands dispute: Its History and an Analysis of the Ownership Claims of the PRC, ROC, and Japan. Baltimore, USA: School of Law, University of Maryland. ISBN 0-925153-67-2. (On page 10) ... a chain of tiny islets commonly known today to the Chinese as the Diayutai (or simply Diaoyu) Islands 釣魚台列嶼, and Senkaku Islands 尖閣列島 to the Japanese.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: editors list (link)

2. Ogura, Junko (10-14-2010). "Japanese party urges Google to drop Chinese name for disputed islands". CNN World. US. CNN. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

3.Suganuma, Unryu (菅沼雲龍) (2001). Sovereign Rights and Territorial Space in Sino-Japanese Relations: Irredentism and the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands. Hawaii, USA: University of Hawaii Press. pp. 89–92. ISBN 978-0824821593. {{cite book}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)

4. Hara, Kimie (原貴美恵) (2007). Cold War frontiers in the Asia-Pacific: divided territories in the San Francisco system. New York, USA: Routledge, c/o Taylor & Francis. p. 51. ISBN 9780415412087.

When you say "No" for these, you need to provide Reliable Sources to support what you said, but not your "stance". If you use what you mentioned in your comment above to explain why you say "No" for these, it becomes your Original Research. Before you make a conclusion or judgement on the names involving naming history on these disputed islands, you need to do your homework better on this (a week ago you were even not clear which one came first, Senkaku, or Pinnacle?). If it is difficult for you to admit your such Original Research mistake, you can choose to keep silence. BTW, you did not change, so I just overestimated. --Lvhis (talk) 18:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

If you still have quesions on Version A, again, you need to provide Reliable Sources to argue. May I clarify one thing here: Version A is not "Lvhis' version" any more because it was an outcome of the discussion participated by several editors including John Smith's, Bobthefish2, Chaosdruid, Benlisquare, Penwhale, Phoenix7777, Oda Mari, and me of course. I had waited for a reasonable time for objection. When no objection input and I got positive approve from Magog, I then implemented this version A to the page. So this is sort of consensus of discussion, not my own version any more. You said this version was "Pro-Chinese", wrong! In this version, it still begins with "The Senkaku Islands Dispute" with bold format, and followed by the Japanese name first, and by the Chinese name second, and not mentioned the English name "Pinnacle Islands" at all. If your "neutral" standard is actually toward "Pro-Japanese", you will interpret any real neutral one as "Pro-Chinese" or "Pro-Whatever non Japanese". Please do not use Tenmei's BRD violation version as a reference, that is an extremely biased one. --Lvhis (talk) 00:04, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis -- Aha. I see.

A. Your reasoning here is consistent with a pattern of related arguments across a span of months. Your tactic is a variant bait and switch. The function and meaning of the edit which was reverted is explained by you in broad, "comprehensive" terms, i.e.,

• "... why making such edit change: to clarify an already effective misleading that 'Senkaku Islands' is the English name" for these disputed Islands." -- Lvhis 18:34, 29 July 2011
• "... the main point of the change is to clarify that "SI" is the Japanese name." --Lvhis 05:11, 30 July 2011
• "... gaming BRD cycle to prevent revision of the lead section, and intending to misleading readers the "SI" is the English name." -- Lvhis 22:36, 1 August 2011

B. After the revert here responded to the premise you yourself had so clearly articulated, the switch to a different and narrowed topic ensued. The broad, "comprehensive" terms of analysis are ipse dixit derogated, marginalized, labeled "off topic".

C. This pattern mirrors the obstinate lack of interest in the issues raised by John Smith's, Phoenix7777, Oda Mari and others. Again and again, they each posted diffs with a narrow focus based on the perceived premises of a specific thread; and then the switch to a different and broader topic was introduced as a method of dissipating the potential consensus-building impact. This pattern in recent edit history is summarized in a "strategic" mis-statement by Lvhis. At a minimum, this short sentence shows that Lvhis understands that there are significant "questions and challenges" which stand in line before the ones which are now urged.

"All questions and challenges raised from other editors have been answered and clarified."

D. Yes -- the questions posed in this thread do have answers which are already developed and these were factors which informed the revert, but the bait and switch environment affects our ability to engage or investigate any of it, e.g,

1. No, not yet -- "... the RSs in version A gave direct sources and support, that one was from a Taiwan scholar, one was from a Japanese scholar Unryu Suganuma (菅沼雲龍) ...."
2. No, not yet -- "... the Japanese name "shotou 諸島" or "rettou 列島" has been translated into "islands", the whole name is still the Japanese name expressed as in English form or Romanized form, same as the part of Chinese name "qundao 群島" or "lieyu 列嶼" has been translated into "islands" for the Chinese name "Diaoyutai Islands".
3. No -- "... Version A has RSs which Version B is lack. When Tenmei reverted Version A back to Version B containing , he was very gross in deleting RSs for such reversion."
4. No -- "His such reversion can be called, using a word he uses quite often, 'anti-wikipedia'."
5. No -- "Version A was also a sort of consensus after discussions."

E. After the unanswered diffs of John Smith's, Phoenix7777, Oda Mari and others are given their due, perhaps we will have worked out a way to address these matters in a step-by-step, constructive, forward-focused process. --Tenmei (talk) 19:45, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis -- -- I learned a new phrase -- "obstinate lack of interest." Across the span of months, parts of your editing strategy have been revealed, including "obstinate lack of interest". Your sentences here illustrate this narrowed focus:

"Tenmei, I don't care what you said in a pile of words but only care whether you have answered those questions in straightforward manner. If you cannot answer, you fail."

Responding to substantive issues, I do not fail. Acknowledging and setting aside the truculence, WP:V + WP:RS do not fail, have not failed, cannot fail, will not fail.

A. Each of the three questions is an examples of a trick question.

B. As a rhetorical construct, the only practical response is to reject these questions because of their form. Rather than trying to clarify using my own words, this problem is explained briefly in wiki-written prose which I copied using cut-and-paste:

Complex question, trick question, multiple question or plurium interrogationum (Latin, "of many questions") is a question which has a presupposition that is complex. The presupposition is a proposition that is presumed to be acceptable to the respondent when the question is asked. The respondent becomes committed to this proposition when he gives any direct answer. The presupposition is called "complex" because it is

• a conjunctive proposition,
• a disjunctive proposition, or
• a conditional proposition.

A complex or "trick" question could also be another type of proposition that contains some logical connective in a way that makes it have several parts that are component propositions.

C. In this thread, the pivotal issues are made explicit in Lvhis' own words. These words create a context for the revert.

• "... why making such edit change: to clarify an already effective misleading that 'Senkaku Islands' is the English name" for these disputed Islands." -- Lvhis 18:34, 29 July 2011
• "... the main point of the change is to clarify that "SI" is the Japanese name." --Lvhis 05:11, 30 July 2011

D. The revert was informed by core policy, including WP:V#Exceptional claims require exceptional sources.

E. Senkaku Islands is the most commonly used English name for this geographic feature in the East China Sea

The edit history which pre-dates this thread is part of the context for the revert here

• Archive 1: here, here, here, here, here, here, and here
• Archive 2: here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, hre, and here
• Archive 3: here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here
• Archive 4: here and here,
• Archive 5: here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here
• Archive 6: here, here, here, here, here, here, and here,
• Archive 7: here

F. There are significant issues which are not addressed. I continue to be willing to wait patiently until after the diffs of John Smith's, Phoenix7777, Oda Mari and others are given their due. --Tenmei (talk) 06:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Citation-supported introduction paragraphs

On Version A & B

Starting this up again per discussion on User Talk:Lvhis; I'm responding here to the comment that Lvhis made on August 4 which said, in part, ""Senkaku Islands" is the Japanese name, and the real English name for the Islands is "Pinnacle Islands"." This is the part I still disagree with, but I think it's because you're misunderstanding what I mean by "real English name". The "real name" of something is the name that is currently used for that thing, not the name that was originally used. For example, the "real English name" of New York City is, in fact, "New York City", despite the fact that the original English name was "New Amsterdam". Similarly, the "real name" of Mumbai is "Mumbai", not "Bombay", even though as late as the mid 1950s the official English name was "Bombay". So, when I said earlier that the real English name of the islands is "Senkaku Islands", that's what I meant--the current, regularly used name is "Senkaku Islands". Probably--there's still a possibility that either there 1) is no regularly used English name, or 2) the regular English name is something like "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands". So, for me, the correct phrasing of your version would be "known as the Senkaku Islands (尖閣諸島) in Japanese and English, and known as the Diaoyu Islands (钓鱼岛群岛) or Diaoyutai Islands (釣魚台列嶼) in Chinese." Alternatively, since we don't agree on what the "real" English name "is", we could say, "known as the Senkaku Islands (尖閣諸島) in Japanese, the Diaoyu Islands (钓鱼岛群岛) or Diaoyutai Islands (釣魚台列嶼) in Chinese, and by various names in English, including the romanized version of the Chinese and Japanese names as well as several different combinations of them." That's awkward, but perhaps clearer. If We (e.g., Big We--the Misplaced Pages Community) should ever agree on what the common name is (via the theoretically upcoming RfC, God willing), then we would adjust the article to match the consensus name. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

@Lvhis:Please clarify the definition of "English name". And "Chinese name" and "Japanese name" too. Oda Mari (talk) 05:14, 10 August 2011 (UTC)