Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:48, 2 June 2021

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Further information The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are: Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence. After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Palestinians. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Palestinians at the Reference desk.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Palestine Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article has been marked as needing immediate attention. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ethnic groups High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks: Meta-tasks: Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project. Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention Iyer Peruvian people Start an article: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Israel High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Misplaced Pages requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Arab world Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Human Genetic History (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human Genetic History, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Human Genetic HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryHuman Genetic History

Text and/or other creative content from Palestinian hip hop was copied or moved into Palestinians with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Property Losses Estimate

The last sentence of the header reads: "According to Perry Anderson, it is estimated that half of the population in the Palestinian territories are refugees and that they have collectively suffered approximately US$300 billion in property losses due to Israeli confiscations, at 2008–09 prices."

However, the *total* national wealth of neighbouring Jordan (population >10M, greater than 2x the current population of the Gaza Strip + the West Bank) is $146 billion, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_countries_by_total_wealth. Even if property in Israel is substantially more valuable per square foot (possible), Israel's total national wealth is only $1,046 billion or $1.05 trillion (same source), and Israel is an unusually stable/rich/technologically innovative country by Middle Eastern standards so the land in an independent Palestine has no guarantee to be as valuable as land in the state of Israel.

I submit that this sentence should be removed as not credible, or at least have some sort of qualification added to it providing context (such as the total wealth of neighbouring Jordan).

Genetics

Why is there such a focus on genetics of Jews in this article? This is not an article about Jews. It's just unnecessarily cluttering the article.

DNA Jews and Palestinians

A 2020 study on remains from Canaanaite (Bronze Age southern Levantine) populations suggests a significant degree of genetic continuity in currently Arabic-speaking Levantine populations (including Palestinians, the Lebanese, Druze, and Syrians) as well as in several Jewish groups (including Sephardi Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, Mizrahi Jews, and Maghrebi Jews) from the populations of the Bronze Age Levant, suggesting that the aforementioned groups all derive over half of their entire atDNA ancestry from Canaanite/Bronze Age Levantine populations, albeit with varying sources and degrees of admixture from differing host or invading populations depending on each group. The study concludes that this does not mean that any of these present-day groups bear direct ancestry from people who lived in the Middle-to-Late Bronze Age Levant or in Chalcolithic Zagros; rather, it indicates that they have ancestries from populations whose ancient proxy can be related to the Middle East."

False conclusions from flawed study with conflicts of interest. The origins of Jews, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, are converts from Iran (Zagros), corroborated by other studies and which is why Zagros was conveniently added to the study in question as a location of interest to obfuscate and lead to false conclusions. The scientific results of this study were that Jews (Ashkenazi) originate from the Levant OR Zagros (Iran) and we know it's the latter from other studies that confirm this. The authors then conveniently twisted the truth to imply that they originated from an population that settled in Palestine from Zagros (Iran) much earlier which is a blatant lie historically. 69.157.142.54 (talk) 00:54, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Correct Grammar.

There are various grammatical errors. For example, the first paragraph has a semicolon where there should be a comma. Unable to edit due to restrictions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stalfnzo (talk • contribs) 01:09, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Fixed! Are there any other errors you'd like corrected? Also, please remember to sign your messages using four tildes (~~~~). -- Tamzin (she/they, no pref.) | o toki tawa mi. 01:22, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much. Grammatical errors make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I'll review the entire article and let you know if I find anything else. Peace — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stalfnzo (talk • contribs) 05:53 (UTC)

Stalfnzo, punctuation is not grammar. That semi-colon to separate independent clauses, that's style. Drmies (talk) 02:17, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Found a missing space after comma in the subsection "Arabization of Palestine": "...show a prevalence of Arab names over Aramaic names from the Achaemenid period,550 -330 BCE onwards." Jude P. (talk) 10:47, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Think I forgot to sign Jude P. (talk) 10:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Documentation that most Arabs today in Palestine who identify as "Palestinians" likely have no ancestry to Palestine

"Innocents Abroad" by Mark Twain, published 1869, is a very well known classic of a detailed account of a border to border expedition of Palestine journeyed by Mark Twain & colleagues. It documents that for centuries Palestine was a "very unpopulated vast wasteland". There were no people groups occupying the land. You could journey for 3 days before meeting one person. The population today claiming to be Palestinian are very unlikely to have ancestral ties before the increase in non Jewish peoples that happened in the 1950's, hence, they are not from Palestine, & whose ancestors have not been there for even a century. IN PERSON INTERVIEW WITH THOSE CLAIMING TO BE PALESTINIAN, which anyone can do as I have done, will reveal these people are from Jordan and have little if no history in Palestine.

JoeFerrari (talk) 21:06, 25 May 2021 (UTC) Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page)."Innocents Abroad" by Mark Twain

Yes, you got that from Joan Peters's probably ghostwritten piece of historical fiction,From Time Immemorial. Go read Norman G. Finkelstein's review. But if you are really interested in the topic, attend any history course taught in any Israeli university of international standing, where the stupidity of that meme doesn't circulate.Nishidani (talk) 21:13, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

User:JoeFerrari Using that source to support the claim you are making would seem to be a fairly clear case of WP:OR, which is against Misplaced Pages policies. Skllagyook (talk) 21:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

It sounds like this editor has dived into the propaganda pool.

Here is some actual information:

• Travelogues_of_Palestine#Debate_over_mid-nineteenth_century_depictions.
• Christison, Kathleen (28 November 2001). Perceptions of Palestine: Their Influence on U.S. Middle East Policy. University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-92236-5. jaundiced observations of Palestine and Palestinians, publicized in his 1869 account of travels through Europe and the Holy Land, The Innocents Abroad, have made him a favorite with proponents of Israel ever since... In modern times, Twain's exaggerations have become grist for the mills of those who propagate the line that Palestine was a desolate land until settled and cultivated by Jewish pioneers. Twain's descriptions are highlighted in Israeli government press handouts that present a case for Israel's redemption of a land that had previously been empty and barren. His gross characterizations of the land and the people in the time before mass Jewish immigration are also often used by U.S. propagandists for Israel. Mark Twain's was only one of literally hundreds of travel books about the Middle East published in Europe and the United States throughout the nineteenth century that conveyed an image of Palestine and its Arabs; the image was almost without exception derogatory, although often less dramatically drawn than Twain's.
• Orientalism (book)

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Nishidani, can't you just go ahead and archive this nonsense? I never thought I'd see Mark Twain cited as an authority of some kind in an ARBPIA article. Drmies (talk) 02:20, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

I never archive things. Don't know how to. Then, one never knows. Some people out there may be the victims of memes like this rubbish and sincerely trust in them, and if they can get a little advice from editors on wiki, all the better. Of course, this should stop here and not develop into a thread, which would be time-attrition when much work is needed elsewhere. Nishidani (talk) 08:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

The region has not been Arabized after Islam

The area was not Arabized in any way after the Islamic conquest. Rather, it was Arab in origin. It was ruled by the Ghassanids, the Arab Christians allied with the Byzantines, and before the Ghassanids, it was ruled by the Nabataeans (for knowledge). The Romans used to refer Arabia petrea See before islam Ghassanid Kingdom Arabia Petraea Tanukhids Also read Muslim conquest of the Levant And not the Arab conquest of the Levant in the region. It was only Christian Arab before Islam Samlaxcs (talk) 15:20, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Arabization refers to the adoption of Arabic, forms of which had been current, especially in the south since the 5th century BCE. But it only became a nation wide lingua franca with the Arab conquest, replacing koine Greek and Aramaic. But that process, like the conversion of Christians and other groups to Islam, took some centuries.Nishidani (talk) 15:30, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

The overwhelming academic consensus is that the area now being Israel and Palestine was Christian (religion) and Aramaic-speaking (with some Greek) prior to the arrival of Islam (and for some time after). Jeppiz (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

The term "Arabization" refers only to a region that was not Arab, and after the Islamic conquest it became Arab and Palestine is not one of them but it was before islam rule by ghassanid Samlaxcs (talk) 10:32, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it was a Christianity ruled by the Christian Arab Ghassanids and not another or different ethnicities Samlaxcs (talk) 10:37, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:RS both apply here. Unless you have academic sources in support, there's little point to this discussion and the article won't be changed. Jeppiz (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Newspapers as a source...

Jordan's population has grown so much by the influx of refugees and others so now the total population amounts to 11 million people. But the newspapers still write that Palestinians comprise half of the population! They also give a figure of 10 million people (sometimes they call them all for citizens) in Jordan while it is actually 11 million now according to the Jordanian Department of Statistics. Just saying it now here because I have noticed what the newspapers are writing (each source mirroring the other) and not because there is a problem in this article. It just shows why newspapers are not a good source for this - academic sources are the best ones. A good, newer study or other academic source would be good. In addition to this, after so many decades in Jordan of integration, the intermarriage rate between Jordanians and Palestinians must be pretty high so I am not so sure about this distinction but I am sure an academic source would look at that as well. --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Palestine-related articles
• Top-importance Palestine-related articles
• Palestine-related articles needing attention
• WikiProject Palestine articles
• B-Class Ethnic groups articles
• High-importance Ethnic groups articles
• WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
• B-Class Israel-related articles
• High-importance Israel-related articles
• WikiProject Israel articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• B-Class Arab world articles
• Top-importance Arab world articles
• WikiProject Arab world articles