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This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Keep, March 30, 2007, see discussion. Speedy Keep, January 11, 2007, see discussion. Keep, December 12, 2006, see discussion. Keep (no consensus), August 9, 2006, see discussion. Keep (no consensus), November 25, 2005, see discussion.

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Fad

I find it sad, and disgusting, that civilized people would engage in this anti-Americanism fad. Every single person who is defending this article knows full-well that they are motivated by a political agenda, and that this article does not belong in a NEUTRAL encyclopedia. I hope one day, probably after GWB is out of office, most of you wake up from your blind fad. I guess the United States is the only nation that sponsors terrorism, right? Garric 05:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

<edit conflict>

• You probably wanted to say:

I find it sad, and disgusting, that civilized people would engage in this pro-Americanism fad. Every single person who is attacking this article knows full-well that they are motivated by a political agenda, and that this article does belong in a NEUTRAL encyclopedia. I hope one day, probably after GWB is out of office, most of you wake up from your blind adoration which ipso facto precludes criticism. Nomen Nescio 10:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

1) Re "Anti-Amricanism": "The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships Thus, in the old Soviet Union, dissidents were condemned as "anti-Soviet." That's a natural usage among people with deeply rooted totalitarian instincts, which identify state policy with the society, the people, the culture. In contrast, people with even the slightest concept of democracy treat such notions with ridicule and contempt. Suppose someone in Italy who criticizes Italian state policy were condemned as "anti-Italian." It would be regarded as too ridiculous even to merit laughter. Maybe under Mussolini, but surely not otherwise." 2) Do you deny the events listed here occured? Do you deny that civilians were the targets? Do you deny that the intent of these actions was to persuade governments or populations to take a certain course of action or oust democratically elected governments when they persued policies not in line with the interests of Washington? 3) There are indeed pages for other state sponsors of terrorism and the acts they've committed LamontCranston 20:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Garric, this isnt really the place to discuss this in a forum like fashion, nor belittle those who subscribe to some of the theory presented. While I agree that the article has serious pov problems, and I have opinions about the very slanted pov pushing that goes on here, as well the original research and synthesis of materials present, the correct action is to edit the article and make it npov, or failing that put the article up for deletion. FWIW, I think this article COULD be useful and accurately describe some of the terrorist allegations against the US. In its current form though, its a piece of slop that has been shaped into an anti-american manifesto and is example of the worst of wiki(which is truly a shame). Dman727 10:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Pointing out brutal state policies is Anti-American? LamontCranston 20:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are you asking me? I have not made such an assertion. The ARTICLE in its current form of being out of context, inaccurate, inventive and highly pov certainly is. As I referenced, there is a place in wiki(and beyond) for pointing "brutal state policies" of the US and other states. Indeed it could be done fairly and informatively in this very article. As it is however, , the article is highly radicalized and in the end betrays its purpose. Dman727 11:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You have not made such an assertion? Dude, wtf! You called it "an anti-american manifesto", are you now denying making such an assertion? As for context, do tell what is the right context for explaining state terrorism - negating it every step of the way with claims of doing it for a greater good? With the exception of the linking to Operation Northwood, these are solid facts presented in the article. LamontCranston 21:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Lamont, you very well know that this article is a crock, why blindly defend it like this? You have no one to convince except yourself. Garric 14:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

What here is incorrect? School of the Americas? The actions of men like Orlando Bosch & Luis Posada Carriles? The findings of the Church Committee? The Nicaragua vs. United States of America ICJ trial? Operation Gladio? Operation Ajax? Operation PBSUCCESS? Operation Mongoose? Operation Phoenix? Operation Condor? The Strategy of Tension? Point it out man! Aside from Operation Northwood, what here is exaggerated? Point it out man!

Are you saying these things never happened, it's all an anti-American lie perpetrated by people who hate America because they can't understand its inherent decency & innate moral superiority?

Or are you saying they did happen but are exaggerated, justifiable and just how innocent were these so-called civilians anyway?

LamontCranston 03:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to avoid this page like the plague as it is pointless to run a marathon in knee deep shit, but this has gone on too long.

• Orlando Bosch & Luis Posada Carriles: Did Bosch or Carriles work for the CIA when he bombed Flight 455? Oh that’s right, they didn’t, in fact they were glad that the CIA was taking heat for it because it drew the attention off them.
• Nicaragua vs. United States of America ICJ trial: Did the IJC mention the FSLN’s support of the FMLN and ELN who were involved in pretty much the same activities as the Contras? Of course not, because after all, the Sandinistas were only victims, never perpetrators of “State Supported Terrorism”
• Operation Gladio: here’s a sweet one if you ask me, the rantings of “9/11 Scholar for Truth” Danielle “why did 4000 Jews stay home that day” Ganser. Yeah … real credible.
• The Strategy of Tension: see above, pure, unadulterated Ganser bullshit.
• Operation Ajax: The overthrow of an pro-Soviet Iranian dictator during the height of the cold war, what a freakin travesty.
• Operation Condor: OMFG! How terrible of us to relay the communications of Latin American countries facing Cuban and Soviet sponsored insurgencies! The Humanity … Oh the HUMANITY!!!!
• Operation Mongoose: WTF were we thinking! Attempting to undermine a communist dictatorship 90 miles from Florida that was letting the Soviets place short and medium range nuclear missles on its soil.. I blame the fascist AmeriKKKan government for allowing this insanity.
• Operation Phoenix: fighting VC guerrillas with their own tactics? Sheer madness!
• Operation PBSUCCESS: Well … that was pretty shitty I guess.
• Carlos The Jackle: Oh ... wait ...The Cubans and Bulgarians were responsible for him ... move along ... nothing to see here ... just swallow the Red Pill and pretend you didn’t read this
• Iran Air Flight 655: So right you are on this one, in fact I remember watching the video of the bridge after they found out it was a civilian airline the cheers and hoots were almost deafaning ... Oh wait ...they were all pretty stunned ... in fact sickened to realize they just killed a couple hundred people ... move along ... nothing to see here

So yes, we are saying that most of the content of this page is unadulterated garbage from equally dubious sources.Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The above section "Fad" does not belong on this talk page. I vote that we remove it as trolling.Giovanni33 22:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• "Operation Gladio: here’s a sweet one if you ask me, the rantings of “9/11 Scholar for Truth” Danielle “why did 4000 Jews stay home that day”"

&

• "The Strategy of Tension: see above, pure, unadulterated Ganser bullshit." - You don't actually know what they are, do you? Nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 or the conspiracy nonsense that has cropped up around it , I've no idea why you've confused them, its something that occurred in Europe, Italy specifically, decades earlier. Please go and read.
• "Operation Ajax: The overthrow of an pro-Soviet Iranian dictator during the height of the cold war, what a freakin travesty." - Check the facts, democratically elected, but speaking of dictatorships what was the Prime Minister & Parliament replaced with...A KING WITH ABSOLUTE POWER, you've no right to complain about anyone when that is what the US is going around putting in their stead. 'pro-Soviet': by that we mean he wished to pursue independent development rather than hand mineral resources over to Anglo-American corporations. So independence and use of resources for development is pro-Soviet, while a tyrannical Shah is pro-freedom and democracy and all that nice stuff?
• "Operation Condor: OMFG! How terrible of us to relay the communications of Latin American countries facing Cuban and Soviet sponsored insurgencies!" - organising and coordinating not just relaying communications, you really need to research these things TDC. They kind of shot themselves in the foot with this one when they blew up out the front of the State Department building a dissident who was out of Chile at the time of the coup d'etat and was making trouble by speaking out in western nations, had to tone things down after that, they also tried to put out a contract on Congressman Edward Koch.
• "Operation Mongoose: WTF were we thinking! Attempting to undermine a communist dictatorship 90 miles from Florida that was letting the Soviets place short and medium range nuclear missles on its soil.. I blame the fascist AmeriKKKan government for allowing this insanity." - They were doing this in response to US aggression, it's called a credible deterrent, there's no doubt about it being very insane but consider what drove them to it, at the 30th anniversary conference held in Havana, McNamara and the other Kennedy administration members who attended agreed that under the circumstances Cuba made the only choice available and they'd have done it too .
• "Operation Phoenix: fighting VC guerrillas with their own tactics? Sheer madness!" - Well now here you are in agreement regarding the US targeting civilian population, to the tune of at least 6,000 people killed, no need to be a smartarse about it though.
• "Operation PBSUCCESS: Well … that was pretty shitty I guess." - Why do you say that? You support all these other actions, no doubt plenty of others not listed here too. The official story for PBSUCCESS was the same as all the others here , Operation Ajax was even used as a blueprint for PBSUCCESS. So why a problem with this when its the same as all the rest? Maybe you've somehow managed to do some serious reading on PBSUCCESS.
• "Iran Air Flight 655: So right you are on this one, in fact I remember watching the video of the bridge after they found out it was a civilian airline the cheers and hoots were almost deafaning ... Oh wait ...they were all pretty stunned ... in fact sickened to realize they just killed a couple hundred people ... move along ... nothing to see here" - They didn't mind being in Iranian territorial waters at the time they did it, you didn't explain how other US ships in the area were able to clearly identify it as a civilian airliner - in a commercial corridor, they didn't mind the heroes welcome they got, they didn't mind the medals they got, they didn't mind the Navy Department cover-up that cleared them of any responsibility, they didn't mind Bush I declaring "I will never apologize for the United States of America—I don’t care what the facts are", did any of them speak up when Iran retaliated with Pan Am 103 later that year?

So we have one where you can't account for the treatment they receive, two cases of mistaken identity, three cases of severely negating what occurred, another where you wallow in a psychopath-esque admittance of what happened which I gotta say is a little creepy and its up their with al-Qaeda guys boasting and laughing about 9/11, another where you admit it was actually the wrong thing to do. The same TDC we've grown to know and love. LamontCranston 08:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Under Construction

Cold we return to the relevant portion of the debate. Please this is not a blog, soapbox or any other nice way to vent your oinions. Returning to this article can we debate the points raised and use arguments to explain why we think something is or is not terrorism. Nomen Nescio 08:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The lastest edit conflict was with this version, which was a compromised version that had gained some consensus:

"Some scholars, such as Noam Chomsky, argue that the U.S. has been legally found guilty of state terrorism based on the verdict by International Court of Justice condemning the United States Government for its "unlawful use of force."

"The claimants say the U.S. is hypocritical because Government regularly asserts a public image and agenda of anti-terrorism."

VS: This version:

"Noam Chomsky argues the U.S. is guilty of state terrorism because the International Court of Justice found it guilty of unlawful use of force."

"The claimants say this is hypocritical because the U.S. Government regularly asserts a public image and agenda of anti-terrorism."

I've asked that we talk about this conflict but the other side claims in the edit summary this has already been discussed. I don't see such discussion. Maybe he can point it out? For me there are two issues that makes the first version better. One is the issue is one of better phrasing. For examples, repeating the word guilty is poor English "US is guilty of...because found it guilty of...", and the use of "it" instead of naming the US, which makes the point clear. The other more important reason is accuracy. To claim that just Chomsky argues this is misleading and false. Its a POV articulated strongly by Chomsky, hence his being mentioned as a respresentative of this POV, but its just Chomsky.Giovanni33 16:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I still support the first sentence in the first version, but for it to say "Some scholars", we need to cite somebody else in addition to Chomsky. I think that's the main objection. I support the second sentence in the second version because it's written better, although the meaning is identical. - Merzbow 17:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that there is a typo for the second sentence in the first version.It should read, "The claimants say the U.S. Government is hypocritical because it regularly asserts a public image and agenda of anti-terrorism." I agree we should add more sources, but I wonder if that is the real basis or only objection. If we add another source, I suspect some editors will still oppose it. I guess I'd like to see the editors who opposed the edit state taht this is the issue, and thus we can have the article unprotceted by adding a source. If so that is easily remedied as there are multiple sources besides Chomsky that can be used. Giovanni33 18:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If there are other scholars who have made this claim, I would like to see who they are and exactly what they said. We might be glossing over a lot of varying opinion with 'some scholars say...' Also, the page needs be restored to the consensus-supported name, 'Allegations of...' Tom Harrison 20:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Well there are many writers to choose from. I'd say that Dr. Frederick H. Gareau who holds a Ph.D. in international relations and organizations from American University, Washington, DC, as well as in political science from the University of Geneva might be a good second to pick as a source. He is full professor at Florida State University and author of The United Nations and Other International Insitutions: A Critical Analysis as well as an extensive number of articles and conference reports. The book in particular that makes these claims supporting the Chomsky POV is entitled" STATE TERRORISM and the UNITED STATES. An abstract can be found here: . Some other writers expressing this POV for example are: Should the United States Renounce Terrorism? See: http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html; FROM WOUNDED KNEE TO IRAQ: A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS, and http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans/foreign.html: Terrorism as Foreign Policy.Giovanni33 00:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

You forgot to cite Dr. Seuss.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 06:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't but I'm glad you are sharing your reading material with us. I'm not suprised.Giovanni33 09:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

So what exactly do they say? Do they in fact "argue the U.S. is guilty of state terrorism because the International Court of Justice found it guilty of unlawful use of force?" Tom Harrison 02:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I never argue that, and that is not the wording that I support. The US is guilty of state terrorism because it commits acts that qualify as state terrorism per every definition that we have, and the instance of the ICJ ruling is a case where the US was found legally guilty of committing such acts, which these scholars identify as state terrorism (which the courts call "unlawful use of force,' and 'in violation of international law," etc.Giovanni33 09:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

That and that the U.S. is naughty. That sums it up I think.--MONGO 07:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Naughty is putting it mildly. Criminal is more like it.Giovanni33 09:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that Marshall Plan was pure terrorism.--MONGO 21:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you have support for that claim? I think you are confusing terrorism with imperialism. There is some overlap but the two are quite distinct things, esp. for the kind of economic imperialism that you cite.Giovanni33 22:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

It was an imperialist terrorist scheme to make them dependent, and sap their will to defend themselves, or even reproduce. Good thing that plan failed, huh? Tom Harrison 21:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I see you changed your idea of the Marshal Plan from plain dollar imperialism to terrorism, so while its on topic (perhaps create another section for this), do you have any sources that make such a claim? I really think you have a fundamental confusion about the two very different subject matters. Remember this is not a place for OR. Of course, I am assuming good faith with the seriousness of your comments here.Giovanni33 23:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but this is a bit off topic since this article is not about imperialism, but terrorism. Can we stay on topic?Giovanni33 22:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, you have to prove terrorism first...all you have is the opinions of a few well know radicals...who cares. This reminds me of arguments with UFO believers, etc. Cherry picking "facts" to support an a priori premise.--MONGO 05:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. This is not for me to prove, as a matter of fact. That would be OR. It is only for me to prove this is a notable POV as articulated by scholars such as Noam Chomsky and others, and thus we can state such as a fact, as evidenced by the sources. And, who cares? I do, and as many others around the world, even if you call them "radicals." Maybe you dismiss their well grounded and scholary work, but many people, including myself, don't. Lets not impose our own biases here. If you dispute their allegations of fact, then please cite a reputable source of us to include as a balancing opinion in the body of the article. That would be fine. The conflict, again, is to state that just Chomsky says this, as opposed to "some scholars, such as Chomsky..." which implies this is a point of view not unique to Chomsky, which is accurate.Giovanni33 07:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Chomsky is a Linguistics expert...not a global terrorism expert. His opinions are no more noteworthy than anyone elses on this subject matter. That no unified group, the UN or other recognized governmental body has agreed with his and the very very few other's radical viewpoints such as his, puts the onus on you to come up with substantial evidence that isn't riddled with your a priori premises. I strongly recommend this article be restored to the correct title which is "Allegations of state terorism by the United States". Your strawman arguments won't work here.--MONGO 07:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with moving the article back to the original "Allegations..." name. - Merzbow 07:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no straw man argument, except on one your making now. I stated what the argument was, and its you who keeps shifting it away from the issue at hand. Now you are attacking Chomsky as a credible source. Sorry, wrong argument. That is the straw man. You were reverting to "Chomsky says,' if you don't think he has a right to be heard on this subject matter, then why revert to what he says? This is not an excuse to deny that other scholars such as Chomsky also have the POV that the "unlawful acts" in "violation of international law," etc. that the court found the US guilty of were in fact actions of state sponored terrorism. I've provided the sources, and its a vew that is rather noteable, and published in many books on the subject. You may want to exclude Chomsky's views to only linguistics, but he has written many well regarded and researched books on the subject of State Terrorism of the US, and he is recognized for his political commentary and analysis, as much as for his theories in linguistics. Moreover, I cited another scholar above, Dr. Gareau, whose academic area of research, is international relations and politics. Sorry, you don't get to say "so what," and dismiss these arguments, or change the issue. As you say, strawman arguments won't work here.Giovanni33 07:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Quick question: Do you also edit under the name Nomen Nescio?  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 16:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Since we keep encountering each other it is unfortunate your style of debating (ignoring facts that might sway your distorted view of reality) has matured into making allegations that are totally unwaranted. I find your repeated and unsupported accusations offensive and you are more than welcome to retract that allegation. After you have done that you might take some time to read WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Cheers Nomen Nescio 08:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't speaking to you, or was I? Did you lose track?  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 14:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's stop being clever, you clearly suggest I am a sockpuppet, or using one. That is a not-cool thing to do and I am waiting for your retracting. There is some space following this comment. Nomen Nescio 14:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

What about prof Frederick H. Gareau (PhD in international relations and organizations from American University, Washington, DC, as well as a licence in political science from the University of Geneva) and his book State Terrorism and the United States? Or Michael Mandel (professor of Law at Osgoode Hall Law School, York University, Toronto, Canada) in How America Gets Away With Murder? // Liftarn

For what statement do you want to use them as sources? Tom Harrison 15:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

That there are other scholars who have made this claim. // Liftarn

What claim exactly? As I asked above, do they "argue the U.S. is guilty of state terrorism because the International Court of Justice found it guilty of unlawful use of force?" Tom Harrison 15:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and I answered that question above with sources of the claim by other scholars whose academic area of expertise is international relations and pol. sci.Giovanni33 00:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You avoided answering, said it wasn't wording you supported, and restated your position. Kind of like here. I have asked a couple of times now who these scholars are, what exactly they say. Who besides Chomsky argues "the U.S. is guilty of state terrorism because the International Court of Justice found it guilty of unlawful use of force?" I'm beginning to think the answer is just Giovanni33. Tom Harrison 03:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I did answer you, and your question's premise is wrong. Not even Chomsky argues that. its the wording that you put in the article, which is not acurate. The wording that I've tried to restore is an accurate reflection of the sources. Once again, the US is guilty of state terrorism because it commits acts that qualify as state terrorism per every definition that we have, and the instance of the ICJ ruling is a case where the US was found legally guilty of committing such acts, which these scholars identify as state terrorism (which the courts call "unlawful use of force,' and 'in violation of international law," etc Note how this is quite different than "Us is guilty of...because the ICJ found it guilty." That is too simplistic and finding guilty is not the reason for being guilty--its only a legal finding that establishes the factual basis and legitimacy of the charges presented for examination. Those actions examined fit the definition of state terrorism per the various authors cited above, and that is the point supported by the cited references. They are all there for you to read and verify for yourself.Giovanni33 03:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I look forward to seeing exactly what it is you want to put in the article, and what the citations are for it. There is clearly no point in asking you here, or else no point in you telling me, so I will wait and see what edit you make to the article. Tom Harrison 04:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no mystery. The version I compromised with, is per talk, and which you reverted. I assume you reverted becaues it lacked a source other than Chomsky, which I'm happy to supply. The wording is: "Some scholars, such as Noam Chomsky, argue that the U.S. has been legally found guilty of state terrorism based on the verdict by International Court of Justice condemning the United States Government for its "unlawful use of force."Giovanni33 04:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course, Chomsky thinks that terrorism is justified if done by the right people. "In fact, Chomsky was well aware of the degree of violence that communist regimes had routinely directed at the people of their own countries. At the 1967 New York forum he acknowledged both 'the mass slaughter of landlords in China' and 'the slaughter of landlords in North Vietnam' that had taken place once the communists came to power. His main objective, however, was to provide a rationalization for this violence, especially that of the National Liberation Front then trying to take control of South Vietnam. Chomsky revealed he was no pacifist.

I don’t accept the view that we can just condemn the NLF terror, period, because it was so horrible. I think we really have to ask questions of comparative costs, ugly as that may sound. And if we are going to take a moral position on this—and I think we should—we have to ask both what the consequences were of using terror and not using terror. If it were true that the consequences of not using terror would be that the peasantry in Vietnam would continue to live in the state of the peasantry of the Philippines, then I think the use of terror would be justified."

"Yet Chomsky’s moral perspective is completely one-sided. No matter how great the crimes of the regimes he has favored, such as China, Vietnam, and Cambodia under the communists, Chomsky has never demanded their leaders be captured and tried for war crimes. Instead, he has defended these regimes for many years to the best of his ability through the use of evidence he must have realized was selective, deceptive, and in some cases invented."Ultramarine 15:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

This is off topic as this is about your opinion regarding Chomsky being even handed with respect to his expose of crimes of other states. The US mainstream media already does a good job at that while turning a blind eye to US crimes, so its good we have scholars like Chomsky who can put some balance back in and hold the US accountble to the same standards it applies to others. Also, this charge contains a logical fallacy, as pointing out what others do, does not negate the validity of the argument against the US. Giovanni33 00:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Chomsky has been extremely biased as the above link shows, both regarding the states he favors and those he disapprove of. Regarding the US mainstream media, studies have found that it has a bias exactly opposite of what you describe. It reports too much from nations where the US is involved, and to little from other nations. For example, by far the bloodiest recent conflict was the Second Congo War, involving 8 nations and causing millions of civilian deaths, which was almost completely ignored by the media.Ultramarine 00:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Everyone has bias, including you and me. So what? US media report based on its own biases, too, which often serve the agendas and interests of the elites of which they are a part of. Your example serves my very point. The genocide in the Congo is off the radar, but not Darfur, for example. Asking why is important and the answer has to do with the kind of selective reporting that the US media has always done, reflecting those same very biases, you are accusing Chomsky of. Well, as I said, his reporting is a good corrective balance to the mainstream medias own ideological filters. In either case, none of this invalidates the factual basis of any particular story.Giovanni33 04:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Certainly the article now give the misleading impression that the US does disproptionately much violence, while in fact empirical research on democide shows that the US government, as all democracies, do comparatively little external and internal violence. Also, much of the article is OR, with no backing in the sources that anyone has even claimed that these events were "state terrorism".Ultramarine 13:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Title

Restore to Allegations of state terrorism by the United States

1. Tom Harrison 13:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Dchall1 13:57, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
3. (second choice)  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 00:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
4. Merzbow 16:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
5. (second choice)--MONGO 20:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
6. (2nd choice) Dman727 20:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
7. (second choice) Tbeatty 02:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
8. (2nd choice) - JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 03:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
9. (Second Choice) -- Yaf 04:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
10. 2nd choice (it's facts, not "allegations") // Liftarn
11. 2nd Choice. Per Liftarn, this article is about facts, not just "allegations."Giovanni33 10:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
12. Option b. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 12:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
13. No evidence has been presented that any international body has accused the United States of "state terrorism". It is only the allegations of some writers, Chomsky in particular.Ultramarine 15:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
14. 2nd choice, see note below. --Leifern 15:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
15. 2nd. Arkon 17:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
16. 2nd choice. ←Humus sapiens 20:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
17. Wandalstouring 08:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
18. (Second choice.) Horologium t-c 15:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
19. second choice. csloat 16:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
20. First choice because the change of name to accusation of .. or allegations of... will be more easily defended against the inevitable repeated attempts to remove the page. DGG 20:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Keep State terrorism by the United States

1. Divestment 18:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)— Divestment (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
2. id keep it the name it is, cause its not about allegations ( leas the way it reads)Charred Feathers 04:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
3. Keep (1st choice) I'm ok either way but have a preference for keeping the title as it is simply because allegations is a weaker term and most of the facts presented in this article go far beyong mere accusation, to established facts and legal court verdicts. Since this article does list actual acts of state terrorism--not simply those who make accusations--this title is best. If it were the latter, then this article would get much much larger. So far those additions of well known allegations have not been allowed in. I don't see this article is an allegations article, but a neutral description of established facts that no one denies.Giovanni33 09:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Which court or international body has used the term "state terrorism"?Ultramarine 15:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

4. Keep (1st choice) // Liftarn
5. Keep name since it has been established the US took part in terrorism activities known today as Operation Condor, it is difficult to see why we are no allowed to call a spade a spade. Nomen Nescio 14:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Who has established that it was "state terrorism"?Ultramarine 15:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Considering that it's been established that the School of the Americas was not terrorism and the U.S. involvement in Operation Condor was not terrorism, I suspect you will want to change your mind to Delete? --Tbeatty 06:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

6. Keep. When something has been established in a court it is no longer "alleged". As Nescio says, whether we like it or not, we need to call it what it is. --John 15:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Which court has used the term "state terrorism"?Ultramarine 15:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   The ICJ. What do you think they refered to when they found the US guilty of "unalwful use of force" and of actions that "violate international law? We don't have to guess since they talk about those accusations which were proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the court. In fact, the US has admitted to mining the harbors. If you don't think this is state terrorism, pretell, what do you call it? Verdict for these actions? Guilty.Giovanni33 20:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   No, the ICJ (with questionable jurisdiction) only found the US guilty of "unlawful use of force" and of actions that "violate international law". Equating this verdict to state terrorism would be equivalent to accusing Japan of state terrorism for hunting whales, although I suppose the whales might consider whale hunting to be state terrorism :-) Yaf 20:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   They never mention "state terrorism". It is like claiming that all persons found guilty in courts of breaking the law are terrorists.Ultramarine 20:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   No, the analogies are false. State terrorism is a controversial term, and not widely accepted which lacks the kind of legal clarity as a concept the court would use in its verdict. Thus it uses the established legal description of "violating international law," "unlawful force," etc. State terrorism is not the kind of wording a court would use to describe what this article describes as state terrorism. But, if you look at the kind of actions that US was found guilty of when it used "unlawful force" and broke "international law," you will see that those actions ARE classic and perfect examples of state terrorism. A correct analogy would be the court found the person guilty of "unlawfully and intentionally killing a person," and we report that the court found the US guilty of murder. The actions that the court looked at and found the US guilty of are specific and clear, so that there is no mistake that the criminal actions its condemned the US for was state-terrorism--as the definition is accepted and used in this article. That is why we have sources that state such is the case. Hence, its not merely an accusation, or allegation--its a verfict of guilty legally established as fact. We can report on these as facts, not merely allegations.Giovanni33 21:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   P.S. The ICJ's juristiction is not questionable. The US only refused to recognize it after it had lost its argument. But it is binding and juristiction was not in quesiton or contested prior. See: http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar05/Sanders0317.htmGiovanni33 22:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   If its not being recognized, then its questionable by definition. Dman727 22:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   For the guilty party to not recognize it after they lose, does not objectively make the issue questionable.Giovanni33 23:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Doesnt matter. This isnt small claims court. the ICJ gains it power only through voluntary recognition of its participants. If its being questioned by its participants, then its questionable regardless of whether you think its objective. Dman727 23:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Original research such as your own personal interpretation of what the court ruling means is not allowed in Misplaced Pages.Ultramarine 22:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   You need to review OR, then. Its not original, I'm not coming up with anything new; its NOT original research to report on what scholars say, and then fully cite this by reputable, reliable sources. Nor it is OR to make simple deductive inferences that are logical and follow from the premise. Such is the common usage of language on WP. But, even this is a moot point since we are reporting what sources say, connecting this obvious dots of FACT.Giovanni33 23:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research." -- WP:OR Tom Harrison 23:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   This entire article is an exercise in WP:SYN. Most of the noteable incidents here already have their own articles and are covered there extensively. This is simply an extremist attempt to gather them all up and draw conclusions to fit one POV. Dman727 23:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Its interesting how you leave out the part of the policy that makes for an exception to this, and thus its NOT OR per policy. Policy goes on to explain: "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." Because have reliable sources that has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article, it stands as acceptable. You may not agree with that perspective, and you are free to counter it by reporting another valid source that dispute it, however, all sources I've seen clearly identifies this "unlawful use of force" as in fact fitting with all accepted definitions of state sponorsed terrorism, and not one argues that this violation the US was found guilty of is something else other than state terrorism.Giovanni33 23:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   No judicial body has been presented which says that the court ruling means that the US committed state terrorism.Ultramarine 23:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   We have Chomsky saying that it is "international terrorism", but that is just his allegation, not a fact.Ultramarine 23:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   <outdent Giovanni33, do you want to say "Chomsky says..."? Reporting what Chomsky says is okay with me. I thought you wanted to say as a matter of fact that it was so. Tom Harrison 23:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Yes, I want to say "some scholars, such as Chomsky, say..."But, it is a fact that these actions did occur, by whatever name you want to call it. Thus, there rise above mere someone making allegations. These are various descriptions of undisputed facts, which according to the definition we use, are actions of state sponored terrorism--ofcourse according to sources. But to attribute these facts to sources does not make then any less facts. That fact that we don't have any other opinion about it per the sources, futher underscores the point.Giovanni33 00:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   Not a fact that it was state terrorism, allegations, which is what this discussion is about.Ultramarine 00:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   Giovanni33, I only care about what you want to put in the article. So far, I have seen no citations to other scholars making the argument you want to attribute to them. Tom Harrison 00:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   I did cite several other sources above, with links. I think you have seen then, and if not, nothing is stopping you from reading for yourself.Giovanni33 03:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   I think it qualifies as a fact, not opinion. Unless you can show me a counter argument that disputes this logical connection.Giovanni33 00:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   Again, see the above argument regarding OR. Also regarding Chomsky, he is speaking outside his academic field. Regarding the quote in the article it is from a television interview. Just his personal opinion.Ultramarine 00:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   Point is moot since we cite other scholars who are not speaking outside their academic field, not to say Chomsky is not qualified to speak on the matter given his extensive published material and reasearch. And, besides the court case, there are various other claims of a factual nature, that are not mere opinion. Again, no one disputes these facts or offers another "opinion." They are as factual as the claim that the US committed acts of genocide against the Native Americans. Not opinion. Fact.Giovanni33 00:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   Many of Chomsky's political books are collections of interviews and similar material. While there were many atrocities against Native Americans, that the US government has a deliberate policy of genocide would be controversial Also genocide is not a controversial term, accpeted in the international justice system, state terrorism is an controversial term not accepted. That the US have supported various dictatorships and rebells is a fact, that this was "state terrorism" is allegations.Ultramarine 01:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   Repeatedly stating that something is "fact" when you have ten other editors telling you it's not so will not advance the discussion. - Merzbow 01:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   Giovanni33, unless it's something you want to put in the article, I don't care. Tom Harrison 00:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

7. Keep Lawarees 03:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)— lawarees (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
8. Strong Keep Stone put to sky 10:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
9. Keep it as the most truthful description of the subject. Allegations my arse. The below votes for deletion are pointless as this isn't the procedure to get an article deleted. --Servant Saber 13:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
10. Keep as is64.201.162.1 13:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
11. Keep: I don't see much of a compelling argument to rename. It's just not enough. .V. 16:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
12. Keep — IMO, no need to move —Christopher Mann McKay 17:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
13. Keep - I don't see much of an argument to rename either, but either this or the "allegations" name works for me.csloat 16:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
14. Keep, Second choice, because the change of name to accusation of .. or allegations of... will be more easily defended against the inevitable repeated attempts to remove the page. DGG 19:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Do something else

1. Delete, (first choice)--MONGO 20:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Delete (first choice) --  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 00:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
3. Delete (first choice) Tbeatty 02:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
4. Delete Tom Harrison 02:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
5. Delete (1st choice) - JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 03:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
6. Delete (1st choice) - Most all of the actual verified events discussed here could be their own article. As it is, this is simply a collection intended to create a wp:syn pov. Dman727 04:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
7. Delete (first choice) - All of the content is from highly suspect sources with POV agendas (communist propaganda websites, etc. Clearly WP:SYN issues. Yaf 04:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   What happened to normal process, i.e. AfD? Nomen Nescio 08:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   The normal AfD process has resulted in several clear keeps. The reasons stated for wanting to delete are clearly POV driven but I guess this makes people feel better. To me it amounts to advocating a type of virtual book burning. Shameful.Giovanni33 09:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   I'd appreciate links to the AfDs if you have them. Tom Harrison 17:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Its right on this talk page at the very top.Giovanni33 20:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   I see American terrorism closed as 'no consensus', and State terrorism by United States of America closed once as 'no consensus' and once as 'keep'; Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America closed once as 'keep' and once as 'speedy keep'. Are these what you choose to call 'several clear keeps'? Tom Harrison 23:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Yes, they are clear keeps, several times, including one speedy keep. After an article has survived so many keeps, subsequent ones should just be speedy keeps.Giovanni33 00:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   So what,Consensus can change. ←Humus sapiens 01:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

8. Delete, indubitably. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 12:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
9. Delete, first choice. Alleged crimes should be covered, but putting them under the blanket "terrorism" constitutes a double standard with respect to patently terrorist organizations such as Hamas, and actually dilutes the facts related to those crimes that have been alleged and/or committed. --Leifern 15:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
10. Delete - 1st. Arkon 17:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
11. Delete, 1st choice - Leifern said it well. ←Humus sapiens 20:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
12. Delete This entire article pretty much hinges on three episodes: the Cuban flight, Nicaragua, and SOA. The first one does not demonstrate that the government ordered it, just that it might have ignored warnings. The second stems from peoples attempts to make "unlawful use of force"=terrorism based on Chomsky. The third might be true but actual evidence is lacking. CJK 23:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
13. Delete (first choice). Without the writings of a linguist (discussing something far afield of his area of expertise), there is nothing here. Horologium t-c 15:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Is this inappropriate canvassing? I also object to the reference to "the nationalists on the page," which seems to use people's affiliations to discredit their views. Tom Harrison 16:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Tom harrison, weren't you accused by User:NuclearUmpf, along with MONGO, Morton, and Tbeatty of regularly e-mailing each other offline? 69.152.137.187 23:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I havent a clue about whether people email each other, but the above canvasing is certainly inappropriate. Dman727 01:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Need for a New Page

Actually, the problem here is simple: there are many, many more accusations of terrorism by the United States than are being presented here. I propose, therefore, that we create that page that so many here have been calling for: the one called "Allegations of State Terrorism by the United States", wherein we present all allegations against the United States -- regardless of their perceived validity, slant, or merit -- as opposed to those which appear herein, and have been clearly substantiated and verified.

For instance, there are many allegations against the U.S. by states such as Zimbabwe (Mugabe, IMO, is a simple thug), N Korea (an embattled and marginalized dictatorship), Libya, China, Russia, and other State governments that are widely viewed as mere propaganda, posturing, or openly hypocritical and irrelevant to serious debate. By creating a page that lists these, i think we'd be able to please everyone here: we could separate the chaff from the wheat and demonstrate the clear, unarguable difference between the events described here (which are based in fact, widely disparaged by citizens of the United States, and openly contrary to the established principles on which most citizens of the U.S. think their government does or should operate) and the rather silly allegations and charges that marginalized states often level.

It would allow us all to make a clear distinction between the objections of a group like, say, Amnesty International, when it condemns U.S. and British complicity or inaction in the 1970s Ugandan genocide, in contrast to the claims of someone like Idi Amin, who sought to divert blame from himself onto the handlers who brought him to power. Clearly, one source is much more believable and valuable than the other.

Regardless, the page as it currently stands is clearly based in fact; ALL of the various objections and complaints currently being aired have withstood the challenge of re-examination many, many times over. Many of these facts have been posted on this board for nearly half a decade. In that time they have survived unremitting, tendentious assaults, all the while receiving clear and unambiguous endorsement by hundreds -- if not thousands -- of conscientious and skilled wikipedia editors and *-ops.

Meanwhile, of the editors currently protesting the current manifestation of this article, Devonshire, TDC and MONGO have each been the recipients of equally clear and unambiguous disciplinary action for their political posturing and abuse of the wiki system. Several of their comrades have been summarily banned from the Wiki pages, most notably among them "NuclearUmpf", who was herein an earlier protagonist of similar behavior. Tom Harrison -- like a few of the others who pop in from time to time -- has never ceased to join this group in calling for the deletion of this page.

This is all very tragic, i think. The fact that this page has received the overwhelming endorsement from the International wiki community is lost on these few. They seem completely numb to the possibility that their own viewpoints are wildly skewed from mainstream, international opinion, and -- unfortunately for those of us who try to maintain this page -- are utterly incapable of reconsidering their own nationalist, partisan sentiments.

The arguments to remove or further water-down this article are vapid and without merit, nor is there any justification for the qualifiers and obsequies currently being promoted. Those who insist on these qualifiers have, many times over, confirmed their utter rejection of this article's very existence -- as they do once again, above, in what is apparently a cynical challenge to firmly established, uncontroversial wikipedia protocol.

The insistence upon "contextualizing" behavior which clearly runs against the agreed upon laws, principles and morality of the wider American people is absurd. The insistence that clearly defined words like "terrorism" may not be applied to widely reported events is absurd. Moreover, any objections that it is the duty of wiki readers to accept -- against all verifiable facts, interpretation, and recorded experience -- unsubstantiated suspicions, opinions and prejudices is absurd.

These last couple of weeks i have seen from this crew -- MONGO, Devonshire, TDC, Harrison, and the people who chime in with them -- nothing more than a series of weak rhetorical postures, not a single one of which is based in any form of fact or substantiation. There have been no challenges to the facts presented, only assertions that these widely reported and analyzed events are not "factual" enough. There have been no demonstrations of an error in research, only repeated accusation that the arguments are invalid. Nor has there been any serious challenge to the sources and archives of these facts and events, but instead a litany of misbegotten opinions that claim to a wide social omniscience.

Instead of solidly argued, fact-based challenges of the ideas, sources and events presented here, we are instead being treated to an energetic exercise in content-free medial "spin" by people who apparently think history was acted out and written by men and women who composed their ideas with an 8th grade vocabulary pruned to 20 second sound-bites. It's a shame that my fellow countrymen feel so fearful as to seek the constraint and limitation of soundly argued, free spirited reasoning, and no doubt a shame that has the true american patriots of bygone years spinning in their various graves. Stone put to sky 10:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Read the WP:NPA policy before you post again.--MONGO 10:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• Support. That is an excellent idea which I fully support. We can have an allegations page that is much more expansive than this narrow list of verified and unrefuted acts of state terrorism. The page can be broader too, such as "Allegations of Crimes against Humanity by the United States?" Or, "Crimes against Peace," "War crimes," etc. If an allegations page is what is called for then lets create them. Certainly we have lots of allegations to report.Giovanni33 18:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

There is not a single "verified and unrefuted acts of state terrorism" on this page, only allegations.Ultramarine 19:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see some proof that I have been one of the "recipients of equally clear and unambiguous disciplinary action for their political posturing and abuse of the wiki system"--MONGO 10:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Were you not de-sysopped?

Further, i have read the WP:NPA. It states that "epithets...dismissing or discrediting views ...Threats of legal action...violence...vandalism... which expose editors to persecution......Insulting or disparaging an editor" qualify as a general outline of what a "personal attack" might be.

Please point out where my words above qualify under any of these measures -- or even something less obvious, unlisted by the WP:NPA but clearly in its spirit. As i have said: i will be happy to reconsider what i have written if you will simply point out to me where it is that i have erred.

I have no problem apologizing. It seems odd to me that i have had to ask four times, now, for clarification. If the offense is so clear as to warrant action, it seems to me that you could have merely stated it clearly and it would already be removed by now. Do you have some reason for not clarifying? Stone put to sky 11:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. I was not desysopped for political abuse...that is a lie. Yes, you did above and have several other times recently Insulted and disparaged an editor (more than one editor), naming others by name, and trying to discredit them instead of their arguments. This has been discussed with you now several times.--MONGO 11:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't even know you were desysopped! Show you how much I've been following the internal politics of WP. So, what did you do wrong, Mongo, to get in trouble and lose your sys op status? I looked around but could not find it. Sorry if this is off topic (but a lot of this page is rather off topic, I think). I know that for an admin to de-sysoped another is very rare. I guess it must have been a serious violation?Giovanni33 18:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This conversation is not relevant here. - Merzbow 19:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Really? Then perhaps i'm wrong. Would you like to explain why you were de-sysopped? Please correct me if my assumption is wrong, but it seems to me that being de-sysopped quite clearly implies that your responsibilities were -- after repeated warnings, and in what was considered quite a rare action by the sys-op board (i'm sorry, but i don't know their official title) -- revoked because of mis-use.

Further, i would like to protest that i have not "insulted and disparaged" anyone personally. I am very scrupulous about that. There have been repeated threats made against me, by quite a few of the posters here -- TDC, you, and Devonshire in particular (and your friend from long ago, NuclearUmpf) -- but i have tried quite diligently to avoid making any sort of personal attack.

Finally, i would like to say how i think it very odd you have removed Devonshire's clear violation of Misplaced Pages policy -- and something which clearly qualified as a "personal attack" -- without a warning, while you repeatedly level warnings and threats against my own person. Is there a double-standard at work here, MONGO? Stone put to sky 11:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

MONGO, you know i am not a sock account. My posts here are made in good faith. Would you please stop harassing me? Stone put to sky 11:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You keep readding this continued attack on several editors here. I guess there is nothing left to do since you don't seem to understand that you can't impune the integrity of others you are disagreement with.--MONGO 11:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

MONGO, there is no way to justify removing the entire post; in fact, you have yet to point to even a small part of it that clearly qualifies as a personal attack. There are portions of the post that make only general statements about the direction this conflict would best move. Similarly, there are large portions of this post which clearly state that certain editors here are not interested in contributing-to or refining this article, but instead seek only to delete it. I have pointed out that the motivation of such editors when contributing to such a page are rightfully questionable, and that in fact many of the challenges that have been made to the page in its current state are simply pure rhetoric, with no content, analysis, or logic to back them up.

As i have said: please, point me to the specific portions of the entry where you feel i was making some sort of personal attack.

As for my suggestion to ban certain posters from this page: in the context of the informal AfD above, i hardly think that my views on this issue are misplaced or consitute an attack. Many of the people here are calling for deletion of this article, for which i have made cogent arguments in defense. My suggestion that these deletionists be banned from editing this particular article is a simple response to what seems an intransigent problem: how can we definitively protect this article from being defaced by people who consider it an affront?

I do not consider this article an affront. I consider it a work of quality research and long, hard negotiations. I do not want to see it deleted, and i do not want to see it constantly defaced by people who resent its existence. I am defending the article -- defending these facts from being covered up and hidden away -- and my suggestion reflects the importance in which i hold this work. Stone put to sky 11:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Your ongoing inciviliies are noted. That you don't see them as such is no surprise, since the last time you argue about this issue, you stated "Anyone who might suggest that this topic be deleted is either a dumbshit fascist or a dumbshit dupe. In either case, they have no place here in wikiepedia." You are personally attacking people when you make these kinds of comments and when you continue to impune the integrity of those you disagree with by naming them and making accusations about them.--MONGO 11:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Eh. I'll admit that one was out of line - way out of line. I was posting-while-drunk. It is, however, an exceptional case and completely unrelated to the present circumstances.

In other words, MONGO -- i learned my lesson. I stayed away and regained my cool. I have returned, now, more level-headed and much more sober.

So, to say it once again: there is no reason for bringing up those words now, because in addition to having been written a long time ago, they also were not directed at you, nor anyone in particular. Stone put to sky 12:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, it sure would be nice if we could post to the page, wouldn't it?

Unfortunately, it appears that we are -- once again -- unable to continue editing this page in good faith because a few people are peeved at the facts and material presented here.

Whatever. Once we get around to editing again i may be too busy to be able to post; so i am including this stuff here, in hopes that some responsible soul will pick it up and place it where it needs to be:

U.S. State Department Definition of Terrorism:

The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant1 targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

The term "international terrorism" means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than one country.

The term "terrorist group" means any group practicing, or that has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism.

The US Government has employed this definition of terrorism for statistical and analytical purposes since 1983.

From:

Patterns of Global Terrorism -2001/2/3

Released by the Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism

May 21, 2002

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2001/html/10220.htm

I think these are very interesting definitions, and look forward to playing with them in the future. Stone put to sky 12:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:No original research. Once unprotected, a massive cleaning will be necessary, most of the article is original research with no backing in the sources that these events have been labelled "state terrorism".Ultramarine 13:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No, no, ultramarine -- the article is not "original research". The article is a clearly ordered collection of facts about a few of the United States' actions abroad, and how many of these actions clearly meet established definitions of terrorism.

You see, Ultramarine -- you have not been around to witness the evolution of this article. I have. Once-upon-a-time, the article was a rather innocent and sparse entry describing a few ideas and instances that many people around the world recognized as instances of terrorism perpetrated or sponsored by the United States.

However, at some point the page was targeted by a few people who objected to the use of the word "terrorism" to describe any action of the United States, and these people began to make brash deletions. An edit-war sprung up.

That edit war has continued until today, now something close to five years gone. Back at the beginning, the entry looked something like this:

The United States of America, being an economically and militarily powerful nation, has gained numerous perennial critics, who tend to focus on its foreign policy. One of these is author Michael Moore. For his list of charges against the US, some of which would be considered by some to be examples of state terrorism, see Michael Moore and US foreign policy.

Many critics claim that various US policies have negative humanitarian consequences, and that in some cases that could be considered state terrorism. For instance, the UN sanctions on Iraq, actually created by the UN and not the US, are often charged with harming the people more than the government. However, the US responded that the sanctions were necessary to cut off the oil revenue that was funding Saddam Hussein's regime.

The US has also taken sides in various foreign civil wars, often working with organizations with questionable human rights practices in order to help fight an enemy perceived as worse. Some label support of such organizations state terrorism.

The nuclear bombing of Hiroshima is considered by many to be an example of state terrorism

Now, the page has undergone a radical transformation. That transformation has taken place under the watchful eyes of the cadre of deletionists, above, many of whom have been stumping around here as long as i have, some three years or so.

This transformation has, at every step of the way, been a chaotic and unprincipled thing. For some reason, the standards of truth by which we measure the quality of facts presented here keeps changing.

For instance, where it would elsewhere be satisfactory to simply state:

"The U.S. was convicted of the "unlawful use of force" by the ICJ. In the context of the Nicaraguan conflict, this has been widely interpreted by many commentators as a condemnation of U.S. State Terrorism" -- all of which is quite true, and easily demonstrable --

well, here, that's just not good enough. Instead of working with commonly accepted definitions and easily demonstrable facts, the editors of this page find their hands tied to constantly shifting and unpleasantly metamorphic standards. Nothing is ever good enough, see --

And it appears that you, too, wish to join in. Super! We welcome you! But there is very little in this article that can be easily deleted. Until now, too many people and too many editors have invested too much time into these entries for anyone to simply state "Most of the article is original research". Nothing could be farther from the truth! In fact, there is much substantiation on the page.

My suggestion is simple: If the collection of people here consider the article to be so poorly constructed that it deserves only deletion, then why don't we float another AfD?

Of course, that can only take place after we, the opposition editors, have been given the opportunity to re-instate the information which we feel has been unjustifiably removed. It is quite unfair, i think, to have an AfD after a cadre of editors to ride in like a herd, make a big stink to force a great many arbitrary edits, and then demand that the page be protected.

So no, ultramarine -- i do not think this page will be altered nearly as dramatically as you seem to think. There is no case for doing so, and certainly no easy way to argue away the collection of facts and reporting that has so far accumulated. Stone put to sky 14:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Read Misplaced Pages:OR. Everything that an external source has not claimed is "state terrorism" should be removed. When an external source claims this, it should be clearly stated that this is a claim and by which author.Ultramarine 14:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have read it, Ultramarine. My suggestion is that you go back and re-read it, because it appears you have yet to really fathom exactly what direction it seeks to encourage our development.

As of now, there is no "Original Research" in this article. To suggest that there is flies in the face of common sense. Stone put to sky 15:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of the article consists of incidents that certain anonymous Misplaced Pages editors personally thinks is "state terrorism". Everything that an external source has not claimed is "state terrorism" should be removed. When an external source claims this, it should be clearly stated that this is a claim and by which author. Not to mention containg numerous factual errors, including numerous fringe conspiracy theories, and being extremely biased in the description of events. Which will be corrected.Ultramarine 15:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have misapprehended the amount of scholarship and verification that has gone into these entries. You have completely mis-articulated the nature of this article. There is nothing "fringe" or "personal" about the facts presented. They all clearly use the term "state terrorism", they all clearly demonstrate U.S. involvement, and they all clearly follow from widely acknowledged internationally validated facts.

I'm sorry, but the facts presented in this article are all carefully validated according to internationally recognized authorities. I really think you need to go review Original Research and try to apprehend its spirit and intent. Stone put to sky 15:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That the Algiers putsch was caused by Glado is a fringe conspiracy theory. Mohammed Mossadegh was not electecd but appointed by the Shah. Stephen Kinzer never states that Iran having an alliance with the US was "state terrorism" by the US. The desciption of the coups are very biased, ignoring the fear at the time of these states becoming Communist dictatorships. The list goes on and on and will be corrected.Ultramarine 16:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The content regarding the Algiers Putsch is clearly sourced to a validated academic. There are no scholars -- and i mean absolutely nobody -- who contests that Mohammad Mossadegh was democratically elected. Your pointed -- and apparently purposeful -- misinterpretation of Kinzer's work is, frankly, frightening in its newspeak. Regarding the "coups", fears about "communism" are only relevant to the motives underlying the events in question; otherwise, they are utterly irrelevant to questions of the tactics and methods used to prosecute their practical effects. The list goes on and on, truly; but so far, it is all accurate, and will remain so. Stone put to sky 16:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The claim regarding Algiers is still a fringe conspiracy theory not accepted by most scholars. You duck the lack of support from Kinzer. That Mohammad Mossadegh was appointed by the Shah is a fact, he may or may not have had popular support. Mentioning oil nationalization but not the fear of a Communist coup violates NPOV.Ultramarine 16:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

From WIkipedia:No original research: "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." Tom Harrison 15:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Original Research?

".. synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" does not apply to situations in which there is only one possible outcome. How about changing mph into km/h. Or, what about the following: 1 four legged animals are quadrupeds, 2 dogs have four legs. Therefore dogs are quadrupeds. To insist we are not allowed to say this ignores "synthesis of published material serving to advance a position," which refers to a myriad of possibilities. Nomen Nescio 16:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is more like "Four legged animals are quadrupeds. Dogs are quadrupeds. Elephants are quadrupeds. Therefore dogs are elephants." The current argument seems to be whether we should use this logic and title the article 'Dogs are elephants' or "Dogs are alleged to be elephants". But really, it should just be deleted as it's somewhat ridiculous proposition. --Tbeatty 06:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well spoken, Nomen, and i completely agree.

What fascinates me is how so many editors here feel that selectively quoting short phrases from wikipedia policy clarifications are equivalent to legalistic equivalences.

Fortunately, Misplaced Pages is neither a democracy, nor is it adjudicated.

To quote the most relevant passage of the Original Research entry:

Original research (OR) is a term used in Misplaced Pages to refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. The term also applies to any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or, in the words of Misplaced Pages's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."

Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.

And further down, it is clarified that "Original Research":

• introduces original ideas;
• defines new terms;
• provides or presumes new definitions of pre-existing terms;
• introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position;
• introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;
• introduces or uses neologisms, without attributing the neologism to a reputable source.

None of the facts presented here can be disqualified by any of these criteria. All of the ideas presented here have solid sources underlying them. All of the terms here are clearly defined by entities which qualify as authoritative in the concerned field (and yes, that includes Chomsky, Chossudovsky, et al). None of the work presented here provides or presumes definitions which have not been agreed upon in advance, by all editors. None of the entries or facts herein presented engage in analysis or synthesis of "established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments" without first attributing that synthesis to reputable sources. And finally, none of the entries here utilize neologisms without proper attribution.

What i find particularly odd, however, is that the complete lack of relevance that the 4th point represents. Why is it that there have been no reputable sources presented disputing the facts as they are currently presented? Stone put to sky 16:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The personal claims of Misplaced Pages editors that many of these events were "state terrorism" is an "synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor".Ultramarine 16:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No, they do not. All of the events and facts presented on this page are clearly characterized as terrorism by third parties. Our vaunted NuclearUmpf -- who, i might add, was eventually banned for flagrant provocations that flaunted Misplaced Pages guidelines (and rightfully so, IMO, although it was sad to see such a shaggy and immature intellect purged from a place where he seemed to be learning so much) -- made certain that all entries brought to this page adhered to the clearly enunciated phrase, "State Terrorism". Stone put to sky 16:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Nomen Nescio, if Professor Gareau argues the School of the Americas was a training camp for state terrorism, and the Times reports that the Generalissimo attended, and the Globe reports his conviction for crimes against humanity, we cannot record that "the US commited state terrorism.<ref>Gareau</ref><ref>The Times</ref><ref>The Globe</ref>" That would be a synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. I increasingly think that dealing in hypotheticals does more harm than good. We may have a better idea of each others' positions when we see each others' edits. Tom Harrison 16:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, unless we have a source that states that the specific act for which this general was convicted of, i.e. crimes against humanity, qualifies as examples of state sponored terrorism. If we do, then we can use it. I think this article does make such direct connections in its claims based on sources it uses. If not, then we should correct that.Giovanni33 22:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That is like stating that it is a fact that Castro is a terrrorist since he have supported rebells in other nations using violence and doing human rights violations. At the very least, an external source is required and attribution regarding the claim should be made.Ultramarine 01:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, my word! Nescio was in no way making such an argument! Gareau himself presents the case in question; the following footnotes demonstrate the basis of Gareau's reasoning -- not Nescio's -- and thus in no way violate the Original Research guideline.

Moreover, Nescio's point - and it remains valid - is that if the United States pays latin-american military leaders to murder 400 civilians so that certain land may be both ethnically cleansed and to encourage local villagers to submit to local Jefe rule, then we can truly say that the U.S. has engaged in "State Terrorism". Stone put to sky 16:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No, that is an original synthesis. Could be put in article called "Criticisms of United States foreign policy" or something similar. But claiming that it is the vague and unclear concept of "state terrorism" is OR.Ultramarine 16:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Nescio and Stone--these claims are not in any way OR, nor are they Syn violations since all we are doing is reporting on the 1. facts that are not disputed by anyone, and 2. the arguments that these undisputed facts constitute examples of state sponored terrorism. True, the concept is one whose basis is disputed but this article states as much, i.e. its controverisal, etc. That is no reason to reject reporting on these acts which are said to constitute examples of state terrorism. That you don't like the concept and term "state terrorism" is fine but its not for you to impose your POV by suppressing our reporting on what what reputable scholars have argued.Giovanni33 22:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Arguing that certain are "state terrorism" is OR unless there is a source stating this. It is like stating that it is a fact that Castro is a terrrorist since he has supported rebells using violence. At the very least, an external source is required and attribution regarding the claim should be made.Ultramarine 22:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me it would be the same for any of the "State terrorism by XXXX" articles. How do the other ones deal with it? --John 16:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible errors in other articles is not relevant for this one.Ultramarine 16:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it possible that the other articles are just fine (the standard all other article are using and they don't seem to have a problem with it), and that the error here is your interpretation and understanding of how policy is implemented on this question?Giovanni33 00:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it possible that the other articles have similar problems? No evidence have been presented either way. Regardless, I am discussing policy violations in this article, not possible ones in the others.Ultramarine 01:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, i wish it were so simple. Unfortunately, such rhetoric is clearly the consequence of linguistic competence, and nothing more. Stone put to sky 16:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Read Misplaced Pages:Civility and Misplaced Pages:No Personal Attacks. I will report continued attacks.Ultramarine 16:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I see no personal attack there. Please try to focus on improvements to the article rather than bickering with others. As to my question above, I made no reference to any errors. I asked how other articles of the "State terrorism by XXXX" deal with this problem. Maybe you thought it was a rhetorical question. It wasn't. --John 17:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You could try asking on the talk page of that article.Ultramarine 17:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Please stop dodging the issue, Ultramarine. The question is valid and deserves to be answered.

With the impasse as it currently exists, it is obvious that this page could stand a bit of education at the knee of other groups. Stone put to sky 17:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, then go and ask on the other talk page. But again, what is important is following policy, which this page does not.Ultramarine 17:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to let John respond to this -- because i think he'll say it much better than i can -- but i'll attempt it, for now:

The point is that examples from other pages would be instructive. If it's good enough for other groups of wikipedians, then we should be able to learn something from it. That's what the definition of "community" is, and that's what wikipedia is founded on. Stone put to sky 17:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, then go and ask. However, the violations of policy on this page will be corrected.Ultramarine 17:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

There are no violations of policy on this page. Apparently, you need to go read up on WP:OR, WP:AGF, and a few other policies. Stone put to sky 17:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Many have been pointed out above. There are many others. I will carefully document them when I correct them.Ultramarine 17:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. And I will back you up. Every single incident in this article must be backed by a reliable source that claims it represents state terrorism by the United States. Claims by editors here that we can infer something is state terrorism are WP:OR, because that is a position held only by analysts like Chomsky on the far side of the left political spectrum. - Merzbow 17:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree too, at least in principal, but I don't see the actual violations on this page. There seems to be a disagreement about what that looks like in practice, and I see the claims being made as unsupported. From my reading, the reported facts in this article are backed up by a reliable source, but that this is simply being ignored. And then the false claim is made that one is doing OR or Syn. I am also disturbed by the fact that it looks like those who are doing this are highly driven by a nationalist conservative ideology, which should not be the case. Chomsky is a valid source, as are the other sources given here that are cited to support the various claims made in this article. If there is disagreement about this, then I think we will all need to look at each specific example concretely.Giovanni33 22:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Spare me the Ad Hominem. I will carefully document everything when starting to correct the article.Ultramarine 22:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any ad hominem. But, why don't you state specifically what needs correction and your proposed text to "correct it" so we can see if it will be accepted or not by others? This seems like the way go forward given the contentious nature of this article and the editors.Giovanni33 00:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have already pointed out factual errors and NPOV violations above, like in regard to the Iranian coup. But the whole article is full of them. Some other quick examples. "The United States Government has also been accused of planning terrorism against its own citizens. and fabricating false pretext" Never accepted, just a proposal, and not against its own citizens. "In 2000, a report from the Italian Left Democrat party," For NPOV, should added "former Communist party", and "the centrist Republican party said it was worthy of a 1970s Maoist group.", "To Aldo Giannuli, a historian who works as a consultant to the parliamentary terrorism commission, the release of the Left Democrats' report is a manoeuvre dictated primarily by domestic political considerations." And so on.Ultramarine 00:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you have failed to point out anything specifically that stands up as accurate and valid. What I have noticed is that you make grand, highly generalized and vague pronouncements with your claims, but you back away from demands that you support you claim by listing something specific that illustrates it’s validity. Now you have listed something, and it again turns out only to prove that your claim is false.

You say the source does not support this statement: "The United States Government has also been accused of planning terrorism against its own citizens. and fabricating false pretext" Then you say “it was never accepted, just a proposal,” But this is quite irrelevant and does not refute the claim. You are creating a straw man fallacy. The accusation is simply that it was a plan--not that it was a plan that was eventually implemented. If it were, we would surely report that, as it would be very significant. You also claim that “not against its own citizens.” I suggest you go back and read the documents again because it clearly provides details supporting that accusation.

The quote details: "the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets…by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”

I'm off to bed. Goodnight, all. Sweet dreams, when they come. Stone put to sky 17:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Blowing up a US ship in an attempt to recreate a phony pretext along the lines of “Remember the Maine” incident is a terrorist attack against US citizens. Any attack on US public (citizen) property, is an attack on US citizens. Hence, the plan did exist. You may not like these allegations against the US govt. but they are real and supported by valid sources. Its not POV to reports on these facts, and it is POV to try to hide them. Can you list anything else? I'm hoping that at least one problem you find is a valid one so that is can be fixed. But so far I'm waiting to see what your talkign about.Giovanni33 19:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, just a proposal, never executed or accepted by the President. I am sure there is proposal (probably several different) for an attack on North Korea, but it is not accepted as policy. No explicit mention of a planned attack on US citizens, that is your own OR conclusion. You are ignoring my comments on NPOV violations and factual inaccuracy regarding Iran and Glado.Ultramarine 19:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was a plan, and thanfully never executed or accepted by the President. But so what? Why do you think stating that such a plan existed is equal to saying that the US actually committed the act of carrying it out? No one is making that claim, except you. Your real argument is that we should not report on this plan per the source because its just a plan? If that is your real argument then I think its very weak because 1. plans to commit terrorism on one's own citizens are NOT ordinary but extraordinary, and 2., all plans relevant to the subject should be reported on anyway, and esp. plans the form a spectrum of various actual implimented plans of terror against Cuba, directly and indirectly. I recommend that others read the sourced document directly here: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

As far as your comment about Iran, please be specific about your claim, and make your case.Giovanni33 19:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"The United States Government has also been accused of planning terrorism against its own citizens" That is like stating "The US government is planning a war with North Korea" if a such a possible proposal was found. Correct is "There was a rejected proposal...". Regarding Irana and Glado, see earlier my earlier comments above.Ultramarine 19:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

But I can repeat them. The article states: "In 2000, a report from the Italian Left Democrat party," For NPOV, should added "former Communist party", and "the centrist Republican party said it was worthy of a 1970s Maoist group.", "To Aldo Giannuli, a historian who works as a consultant to the parliamentary terrorism commission, the release of the Left Democrats' report is a manoeuvre dictated primarily by domestic political considerations."

Mohammed Mossadegh was not electecd but appointed by the Shah. Stephen Kinzer never states that Iran having an alliance with the US was "state terrorism" by the US. The desciption of the coups are very biased, ignoring the fear at the time of these states becoming Communist dictatorships. And so on, just some examples.Ultramarine 19:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I will also repeat earlier comment regarding stating as a fact that certain acts are "state terrorism". That is like stating that it is a fact that Castro is a terrrorist since he have supported rebells in other nations using violence and doing human rights violations. At the very least, an external source is required and attribution regarding which authoer has med the claim should be made.Ultramarine 20:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

This article does use external souces for attribution regarding claims that are made. If there is something does lack then, please point it out so we can remedy it. As far as your point about Mossadegh not being elected, that is not quite true. I think you are confusing the fact that in Iran the appointment took place in the context of an election process, the two not being mutually exclusive. Here are sources that support the claims: This is an excellent interview about the kinds of terrorist activities the US committed in that country at that time: "50 Years After the CIA’s First Overthrow of a Democratically Elected Foreign Government We Take a Look at the 1953 US Backed Coup in Iran." If that source is too "left" for you, here is the BBC: Which states: "Document reveals the true extent of Britain 's involvement in the coup of 1953 which toppled Iran 's democratically elected government and replaced it with the tyranny of the Shah." And, if you one a more scholarly source, here is Harvard’s Human Rights Journal Volume 17, Spring 2004, ISSN 1057-5057. Copyright © 2004 by the President and Fellows of Harvard College, that states: "Any analysis of America’s position in the Middle East would be incomplete without a thorough understanding of the U.S. role in overthrowing Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, the democratically elected and revered Prime Minister who nationalized Iran’s oil."See:http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss17/booknotes-All.shtml As far as your comment about "ignoring the fear of communism" that is POV, and not relevant. The fear is the same fear we have that is typical for all imperialist states bent on global conquest and domination: that people gain control their own natural resources (in this case oil, again), be it in the form of socialism, communism, or nationalism. What you call "communism" I'd call liberation from capitalist expoitation and plunder, etc. But these are POV's that are best left out of this article. If we want to present both sides, then that is ok, in the body of the article about this incident, provided you have a source. I have no objection to that--as long as its not the only pov. Your comment about adding that the plans the US made for some terrorist activies were rejected, is trivial since we only report the accusation of the plans they made. If they were not rejected but carried out, we'd report that fact. But, if you think we need to add in that these particular plans were ultimately rejected by such and such, then that is fine, but not stating that is not a problem either, as it is rather obvious. Plans are just that plans, they are not actions.Giovanni33 22:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, obviously there is a difference between stating "The United States is planning to attack North Korea" and "The United States has plan, if the United States so decide, to attack North Korea." The current article misleadingly implies the first alternative. As well the OR conclusion that plan explicitly targeted US citizens. Regarding Iran, the Iranian Constitution gave the Shah great powers, including appointing and dismissing the Prime Minister. Mossadeq was elected to the parliament and the parliament (initially) supported him. This and street riots forced the Shah to appoint him Prime Minister. The following events were complex, like Mossadeq dissolving the Parliament and taking on dictatorial powers when it didn't obey him but claiming popular support from a plebiscite. Exactly who to believe depend on who you ask, but he was not elected as Prime Minister and the degree of democracy in Iran is questionable (both from the great offical power wielded by the Shah and the great inofficial power taken by Mossadeq after dissolving the Parliament). The article names the oil nationalization as the cause for the coup, so it is pov to not mention the very real fear of a Communist dictatorship at the time. Still no explanation how the Iran having an alliance with US or being "client state" after the coup is "state terrorism" by the US. You ignore the argumens regarding Glado and Castro.Ultramarine 23:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC) A quick check yields more problems. "According to the Asia Times, sponsoring terrorist activities inside Iran has been a consistent feature of U.S. regional policy over the past quarter-century. The paper cites The New Yorker Magazine's investigative reports which states that as of at least 1996 the United States has military commando units operating inside Iran." There is no citation of The New Yorker Magazine or claims regarding commandos. Seems completely fabricated. Regarding the first sentence, the opinion piece gives no sources, so only the personal opinion of the writer.Ultramarine 00:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Now you are doing OR. You have failed to come up with a single source that says his govt. was not democratic, or democratically elected. I showed you several. What you are doing is using your own analysis of complex facts to come to your own conclusion. That is like me saying George Bush, because he was appointed by his buddies on the Supreme Court, is not a democratically elected govt. but I cite no sources, except that events are complex, etc. Lets stick to what sources say and claim, and not do our own OR or Syn. If you have sources that plainly state as a statement of fact that this govt. was not "democratically elected" then produce them, otherwise, we do have sources that make this claim as a statement of fact with precisely such terms.

Your point about the US making plans, and your objection to the current wording is misleading because the example you give, while valid, does not fit into how the article puts it. It says the US has been accused of making plans against its own citizens, using clear past tense language, not like your example, "is planning" language, which I agree would be a problem, as it misleads the reader into thinking this is currently a plan under consideration. No, it planned it. This particular plan was not carried out, but need we say that? If it did carry it out, the accusation would not be about the US making plans, but actually committing the actions. So, I don't see your objection as valid. If the US devised a plan to attack Korea, then we should report on it, just like that: "the US has been accused of constructing a plan to attack North Korea"--not "the US is planning planning to attack..." This article does the former, NOT the latter.

Saying there was a "real fear of communist dictatorship" is also OR. One does not know about fear or motivations, but if there is a source that states then, then I dont object to quoting from it, but it must be properly attributed to a qualfied source. Then, for NPOV, we woudl have to also report with sources that will point out the US regularly and artifically created and used the anti-communist hysteria to undermine democratic governments and install Nazi-like dictatorships.Giovanni33 00:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree we should probably use a better source than the report by the Asia Times, but it is not "completely fabricated." The New Yorker article is real: The Iran Plans By Seymour M. Hersh, The New Yorker, 17 April 2006 Issue If your argument is that we should add a better source, or add this New Yorker source, I'm fine with that. I would also like to add the informative sources on the coup, above, which also allege state terrorism. Regarding the claim of comandos in Iran see: "Seymour Hersh: U.S. Conducting Covert Operations in Iran For Possible Military Strike. We speak with investigative journalist Seymour Hersh who is reporting that the Pentagon has already secretly sent in forces to Iran to identify possible future military targets. According to Hersh, the president has authorized the Pentagon to send secret commando forces into as many as ten nations in the Middle East and South Asia. The secret forces could potentially carry out combat operations or even terrorist acts. Giovanni33 00:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Still not elected, appointed as per sources. Still do not believe me? Read the 1906 Iranian Constitution, Section 4, Article 46. Democratically appointed? Maybe, we could state that some sources have said this but that they make an incorrect claim regarding being elected. See sources above for fear of a communsit overthrow. Regarding"planning terrorism against its own citizens", this is still not the same as a rejected proposal involving unspecified persons. I still see no support in the New Yorker for commandos in 1996 and also looks like an unsourced opinion piece. Regarding the Democracy Now statements, personal opinions that commandos may use terrorism in the future is conjecture. I have still not seen a response regarding to how being a "client state" is "state terrorism, Glado, or Castro. More problems. The article quotes extensivly from Danielle Ganser who has used Soviet forgeries, which must of course be mentioned, as must Chomsky's double standard regarding state terrorism and Communist regimes.Ultramarine 01:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

You're jumping all around again. Stick to one issue at a time and be clear. What about Gladio, which were linked to domestic right-wing terror groups. See What about Castro? As I said, I can claim Bush was not elected. He lost the majority of votes. If I make this claim on an article that the Bush regime, and therefore the US govt. currently does not have a democratically elected govt. that would be in violation of SYN and OR. But that is exactly what you want to do here. Your pulling out particular facts, out of context, and using that to push a POV, in opposition to what the sources say, although it does not counter what the sources say. Again, find a source that says, the govt. is NOT democratically elected, and then we can say its a disputed fact. Otherwise, we just have you own OR. I don't see sources above for fear of communism, but as I said, I'm fine with adding that POV as long as we have the other POV represented as well. And, even if the commandos is an opinion, as long as we properly attribute that to its author, what is the problem?Giovanni33 01:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Ganser is a bit of a stove-piped rube. His work is amateur at best, synthesizing the tabloid press in Italy and elsewhere, taking it all at face-value, without checking the hyped-claims against primary research. For instance, he accepts the validity of FM 30-31B, which the legitimate press has found to be a Soviet forgery. His work reads like the sensationalist tomes of conspiracy theorists and crackpots. Coincidentally, he's a 9/11 conspiracy theory true believer. Big surprise.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 14:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

(NOTE: the last time Monty attacked Ganser he was forced to admit that he hadn't actually read Ganser's writing. Have you read it since, Monty? Interesting how you can claim "His work reads like the sensationalist tomes of conspiracy theorists and crackpots" without having read it. Slightly less than honest, isn't it Monty?)... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 16:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, instead of attacking his claims, you attack him. This is a fallacy, you know, poisoning the well and ad hominin. But, its also factualy wrong. An "amateur at best?" No, he is a professional. Big difference. Your the amature, my friend. "Daniele Ganser is a is a historian who specializes in inter-national relations and international history from 1945 to today. His research interests are peace research, geostrategy, secret warfare, resource wars, globalization and human rights. He teaches at Swiss universities, including the history department of Basel University. His current research is focusing on the so called "war on terror" and peak oil." And, your claim that he is a "true believer" also appears to be false. From what I've seen he simply raises questions regarding the official story, and says that alternative theories, including, the conspiracy theories, should also be examined against all the facts. But more to the topic, do you dispute the veracity or accuracy of any of the claims he makes in the source above on Gladio? If so I can provide other sources that support his claims. This is really the issue, btw.Giovanni33 16:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

As shown, numerous problems and it seems to be getting difficult to discuss them all on talk. Probably better to wait for the article to be unprotected so we can more easily see sources added and arguments made.Ultramarine 09:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is a mainstream source, ABC, to add the Operation Northwoods, claim, which clarifies the quesitons you raised regarding targetting US citizens (a claim this source makes clear is a true allegation and not OR), and the question of the plan being rejected. In connection with that point, if it is to be said the plan was rejected, then it should be made clear that this was only after the plan was also approved by the highest levels of Pantagon. As the report states, it had "the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara." It was only rejected by the Kennedy Administration, but this is what the US military leadership wanted the US govt. to carry out.Giovanni33 16:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I see no mention of explicitly targeting citizens, most of the actions is clearly directed against non-citizens and the rest is unspecified. If you want to add at what stage the proposal was rejected, fine.Ultramarine 16:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Moving material

Much of the material in the extremely long section on Luis Posada Carriles should be moved to that article and replaced with a summary. No need to repeat the entire article here.

The sections "Definition of the term terrorism" and "Application of United States Government's own definitions" should be merged, same topic.Ultramarine 12:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. When this article becomes too big, then we can look to trim and merge. Right now its fits in well with the article, and it does not go in great details as the main article does. It should cover enough information about the subject in this article. After this article is expanded and size/space becomes and issue, then we can do trimming/merging. The focus should be on expanding, and adding more and better sources.Giovanni33 16:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

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