Misplaced Pages

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view · edit Frequently asked questions (see also: Misplaced Pages:Technical FAQ) Click "" next to each point to see more details. If something looks wrong, purge the server's cache, then bypass your browser's cache. This tends to solve most issues, including improper display of images, user-preferences not loading, and old versions of pages being shown. No, we will not use JavaScript to set focus on the search box. This would interfere with usability, accessibility, keyboard navigation and standard forms. See task 3864. There is an accesskey property on it (default to accesskey="f" in English). Logged-in users can enable the "Focus the cursor in the search bar on loading the Main Page" gadget in their preferences. No, we will not add a spell-checker, or spell-checking bot. You can use a web browser such as Firefox, which has a spell checker. If you have problems making your fancy signature work, check Help:How to fix your signature. If you changed to another skin and cannot change back, use this link. Alternatively, you can press Tab until the "Save" button is highlighted, and press Enter. Using Mozilla Firefox also seems to solve the problem. If an image thumbnail is not showing, try purging its image description page. If the image is from Wikimedia Commons, you might have to purge there too. If it doesn't work, try again before doing anything else. Some ad blockers, proxies, or firewalls block URLs containing /ad/ or ending in common executable suffixes. This can cause some images or articles to not appear. For server or network status, please see Wikimedia Status. If you cannot reach Misplaced Pages services, see Reporting a connectivity issue.

MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-footer

Would there be any objections if I were to create this particular MediaWiki: page? Examples of its use can be seen on Meta and Wikisource (see bottom of here and here) —Anonymous Dissident 08:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I want it I want it I want it!! Happy‑melon 20:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

YES! Interestingly enough I was just thinking about this too after my recent editing on WB. - Icewedge (talk) 07:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Nicely done. :) Is there a particular reason MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-footer and MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-footer-anon use different images and css attributes? In particular, Image:Misplaced Pages-logo.svg (38px) and Image:Information.svg (40px)... and the tables themselves seem to render with slightly different widths, on my browser. I favor consistency, but have no particular preference regarding which style we keep. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Luna Santin: You are right. I'll update both to use our standard MediaWiki message box styles, thus they will look like the MediaWiki:Sharedupload. With 100% width, standard light grey background and so on.

I have coded up examples in my user space at User:Davidgothberg/Test30. I don't know which image to choose. I am leaning towards the Misplaced Pages logo (it looks good), or the icon tools image (since it says more about what content the boxes have).

Note! In my examples I also suggest a slight change in the MediaWiki:Sharedupload box. (The "This is a file from the Wikimedia Commons" box.)

--David Göthberg (talk) 22:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. I definitely appreciate the consistency. As far as images, I believe I would personally favor Image:Information.svg or Image:Icon tools.png (though I believe you mentioned you liked Image:Imbox notice.png previously, which is also fine with me) -- they hint nicely as to the box's contents, as you said. – Luna Santin (talk) 09:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Based on the two of us it seems the Image:Icon tools.png is the choice. But I think we need some more users to look at this. So please, can more people take a look at User:Davidgothberg/Test30 and comment here?

--David Göthberg (talk) 06:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I also prefer this icon; it matches the purpose of the links much better. I'd certainly prefer not to see the Misplaced Pages logo. Waltham, The Duke of 12:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there any way I can add the template to the bottom of my user page? Thanks! SharkD (talk) 22:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

SharkD: I see that you answered yourself by making the template {{sp-contributions-footer}}.

Everyone: I think I have found a much better image to use for these boxes: Image:User-info.svg

Perhaps we should use a more colourful version of that image, but you get the idea. But these boxes are interface messages so perhaps it is good that the image looks a bit neutral. See my example boxes at User:Davidgothberg/Test30 to see how it looks in the boxes.

--David Göthberg (talk) 08:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I really think that "IP user" should be substituted for the three places that "anonymous user" appears, as everyone should know that most user names are far more anonymous than IP addresses. 199.125.109.90 (talk) 17:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with the IP user 199.125.109.90, it is time we get rid of the misnomer "anonymous user" for the not logged in users.

--David Göthberg (talk) 17:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The term "IP user" is terrible. It's incomprehensible jargon to practically anyone on the planet. Call them "unregistered users". —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 15:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Not specific enough. IP user is fine, and it is well explained. It's not something that would ever be used out of context. I know I would much rather be referred to as an IP user than as an un-something. 199.125.109.64 (talk) 15:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

IP user is not "well explained". It's incomprehensible unless you happen to be one of the tiny technical elite who knows what an IP address is, and even then it's incomprehensible unless you realize that MediaWiki names unregistered users by IP address (which is unheard of for web software). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I like the new image; I don't mind the discreet blue colour (actually, I think I like it), and I agree that the image should look neutral. In the sandbox I notice two additional new suggestions... As I've said, I prefer this icon to one with more colour (in this case, the one wearing a red tie). As far as the black one is concerned, I get the meaning ("shady" members), but I don't think it will be appreciated much, and it stands out too much anyway.

Although I might consider it if it were stroking a white Persian cat. Waltham, The Duke of 22:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

As most of you probably have already noticed: I have changed to the "user info" image I show above for all the related MediaWiki messages.

Waltham: Yeah, the black one looks scary. I bet some would like it for IP users! :)) The two coloured images were the only related ready made ones I could find on Commons. I have tried with softer green versions on my own computer, but didn't upload them since they didn't look as good as the grey-blue one we are using now.

Simetrical and 199.125.109.64: Both "IP user" and "unregistered user" sounds right to me. Both are way better than "anonymous user". I think we need input from more users to decide which one is best. So people, which do you prefer: "IP user" or "unregistered user" or something else?

--David Göthberg (talk) 11:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I prefer IP user as it is both shorted and as 199.125.109.64 (I think) pointed out, unregistered could be seen as negative. —Atyndall 11:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I am being pedantic about semantics, but maybe use "editor" rather than "user". All editors are users, but not all users are editors (some are just readers), and there is no purpose in having "IP user contributions" for IP readers-only. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 11:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Twas Now has a point there. Here are the first sentence of the message with the different namings. Version 0 being the old message:

0: This is the contributions page for an anonymous user, identified by the user's numerical IP address.

1: This is the contributions page for an IP user, identified by the user's numerical IP address.

2: This is the contributions page for an unregistered user, identified by the user's numerical IP address.

3: This is the contributions page for an IP editor, identified by the editor's numerical IP address.

4: This is the contributions page for an unregistered editor, identified by the editor's numerical IP address.

I think I prefer versions 1 and 2, but I am okay with 3 and 4 too. To me "user" sounds more friendly and welcoming than "editor". By the way, since these footer boxes are very visible I think that the naming we use in them is likely to become the standard naming we use here at Misplaced Pages.

--David Göthberg (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no preference, but I'd like to make two observations:

• IP user/editor is more educational, as it makes the connection with IP address and shows the Wikipedian in question what an IP user/editor is without having to be a nerd or read any help pages.
• As far as Twas Now's point is concerned, he is right in that only those IP addresses with edits are relevant here, so it makes no sense to refer to plain readers in the toolbox. Furthermore, I think we can say that editor is a title automatically bestowed on anyone who's made an edit, not least because the two words are obviously related.
  • On the other hand, since only those who have made edits will have a contributions page (where the toolbox at the bottom appears), the IP user in question cannot be a plain reader anyway. The "this is the contributions page of an IP/anonymous user" message would only appear for editors, who do belong to the category of IP users.

Full circle. :-) Waltham, The Duke of 13:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

So glad Version 0 is getting looked at. I much prefer "IP editor" to any other option."Hey look, you're already an editor. One of us. One of us". Seriously, it is much more personal, friendly and instructive than "IP user" (my second choice). Hopefully affording us the title will rub off on both IPs and those registered. Dream the dream. 86.44.24.10 (talk) 02:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC) is pimping his sidebar proposal

User is standard terminology on Misplaced Pages. Note: User:Dream, User:Duke, User:David. If Misplaced Pages had been using Editor:The Duke of Waltham then IP editor would be appropriate. Since WP uses User:The Duke of Waltham, then it should be IP user for consistency. 199.125.109.96 (talk) 06:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Advanced search is hard to find

I did not notice right away, but advanced search is at the bottom of the regular sidebar search results. Could a link to "advanced search" be put in the sidebar of all pages?

Or at the very least, at the TOP of the regular sidebar search results too, and not just at the bottom. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Hitting the "Search" button (next to the "Go" button) takes you to that page; a link already is on every page. EVula // talk // ☯ // 13:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but very few people know that, I believe. I have been editing Misplaced Pages almost 3 years and have over 14,000 edits and did not know that until now. I have always entered a search term or phrase and then clicked either button. I don't remember clicking either the "go" or the "search" button without entering search terms. Or it was so rare that I did not remember where it sent me too.

Most of the time I use the Google toolbar to search the Misplaced Pages site anyway: the "Search only the current Web site" button. I would have liked to have used the advanced search more since there is more specificity in what it can search for in some cases. But I disliked the extra steps I had to take to hunt up the bookmark. So this is good to know. Many other people would probably like to know this.

No offense, but nerds who work a lot in an area (for example the Misplaced Pages sidebar and interface), tend to lose sight of how others perceive that area. They don't realize how unintuitive some things are. I have my areas I focus on in nerdlike fashion, and fresh perspectives have been very helpful at times. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

• Just to say I second the suggestion to add a Special:Search link somewhere in the sidebar ("toolbox", I guess). Sardanaphalus (talk) 21:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, good idea to put it in the "toolbox" section of the sidebar of wikipedia pages. I hope it is named "Advanced search" since that is a search tool name people are familiar with. So the link could be in this form: Advanced search. That is also the name used on the submit button on that search page. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I too would like an Advanced search link in the toolbox since I want to be able to right click it and choose "Open link in new tab", and I can't do that with the button.

--David Göthberg (talk) 00:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

If this doesn't get implemented generally, anyone who wants it can easily do it with personal javascript. Algebraist 01:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

If whatever you search for doesn't exist, the "Advanced search" thing is at the bottom of the search results page. Mr.Z-man 01:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the OP said that in his first sentence. The issue is whether it should be more visible. Algebraist 01:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Best solution would be to make the word "search" (above the search box) link to Special:Search rather than adding it to the bullet list. — CharlotteWebb 17:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I was wondering why there were 2 buttons, one labeled "Go" and one labeled "Search". I think one of them could be removed. Then a simple link labeled "Advanced search" could be put in its place. A link, not a button. A link can be right-clicked as David Göthberg suggested, and the advanced search page can be opened up in a new tab. I dislike having to open it over the original existing page. That wastes bandwidth and time if I have to go back to the original page. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

They serve different purposes. "Go" (a.k.a. "I'm feeling lucky") loads a page with a title exactly matching your input, if one exists, and "Search" will give you a list of pages containing text similar to your input. I'm just suggesting that we change the text above the sarch box from:

<h5><label for="searchInput">Search</label></h5>

to

<h5><label for="searchInput"><a href="/Special:Search" title="Advanced search">Search</a></label></h5>

— CharlotteWebb 18:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

OK. That would work. Not sure that everyone will understand that the box below the link is not for advanced search though. But this idea of putting the "Advanced search" link just above the search box is much better than before. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear no! The Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style explicitly states that section headings in articles "should not normally contain links", since most editors think that is ugly. So please don't link the box headings in the interface. Also, renaming that box heading to "Advanced search" would be misleading about the box content, and not renaming it would be misleading about what the link means.

The advanced search is mostly for us editors who want to search other name spaces. (Well, and for experienced readers who want to right click and open a new tab.) So put the link in the toolbox. There are plenty of vertical space in our sidebar, since most pages are far longer than the boxes in the sidebar. (And I have a very slow computer but loading and rendering some extra text is no problem, so it's not a performance issue either.)

And keep both the and buttons. They are both useful and I have seen my non-geek friends use them and understand them without problems.

--David Göthberg (talk) 12:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I can only hope your appeal to the MOS is a sarcastic one. — CharlotteWebb 15:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

OK. Maybe if the "Advanced search" link was put at the top of the "interaction" section then it would be close enough to the search box to be noticed right away by people who want to do a search. Or better yet, put the link at the bottom of the search box below the "go" and "search" buttons. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

CharlotteWebb: No, I don't use sarcasm. I know the MOS doesn't apply to anything but articles. But it is still a good reference for what many Wikipedians think is good style.

Timeshifter: You got a point that it would be nice if the Advanced search link is put somewhere close to the search buttons. I tried it in my image editor and it doesn't look that good in the search box (below the search buttons). So I suggest either at the top of the "interaction" menu, or perhaps more fitting at the bottom of the "navigation" menu. (And adding it to any of those two menus is just a simple edit to MediaWiki:Sidebar, while adding it to the search box is probably more complex.)

--David Göthberg (talk) 19:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The sole commonality is the coincidental use of a <h> html tag for each, so comparisons are tenuous at best. — CharlotteWebb 16:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the bottom of the navigation menu sounds good. Search is definitely a navigation tool. And the "Advanced search" link would be directly adjacent to the search box. I have another problem. When I enter a search term into the search box the popup suggestion box that drops down covers the "go" and "search" buttons. This makes it almost impossible to actually do a search! So putting the "advanced search" link above the search box is better. This allows people to go some place where they can do a less-encumbered search. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Timeshifter: When you type in a word and don't want to do an actual search instead of just clicking one of the alternatives that pop up in the drop-down list, then all you have to do is to click anywhere outside the box (on the page) to close the drop-down list, then you can click "Search". The word you typed will still be in the text field.

Everyone: It seems most of us want to have a link to Advanced search in the sidebar, and that some of us think the best place is at the bottom in the "navigation" menu. So I will add it there now.

--David Göthberg (talk) 03:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! SharkD (talk) 03:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Y Done - The Advanced search is now in the "navigation" menu in the sidebar. If you don't see it on a page you visit and feel impatient then you can purge the page. About a week from now all pages will have timed out in the cache and will have re-rendered and then everyone (including IP users) will see the Advanced search link on all pages.

--David Göthberg (talk) 04:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I see it. Is there a way to make the dropdown menu (the one with search suggestions) open up so that it doesn't cover up the "go" and "search" buttons. Maybe make it open up a little to the right? Also, could the search results for regular searches open up in a new tab? --Timeshifter (talk) 07:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Is there a way to add hotlinks for some of the more advanced function, like there is on edit pages? Or, at least provide a short key/legend? SharkD (talk) 04:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Which advanced functions? —AlexSm 04:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I oppose this addition. So far I saw two arguments:

1. some users never find advanced search fieldset. Solution: add a jumping-down ] shortcut to MediaWiki:Searchresulttext which is displayed above search result
2. some users need a direct link to advanced search. Solution: a bookmark in your browser.

By the way, a little tip: if you want to search in one particular namespace, just type it as a prefix, e.g. typing "wp:apple" and clicking "Search" will look for "apple" in "Misplaced Pages:" namespace. —AlexSm 04:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

SharkD: I don't know what you meant by "hotlinks". But do you mean that on the Special:Search page you want to add some more explanations how it works? I looked around and there is at least the MediaWiki:Searchresulttext which seems to be the message that is placed at the top of Special:Search, so seems we can add more text easily.

--David Göthberg (talk) 04:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the question was about insertable characters (aka edittools)? Certainly possible as a gadget. —AlexSm 04:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

AlexSm: Your first suggestion above is good. I checked the rendered page code and there is an id at the advanced search box at the bottom of the page, so yes, we can add an anchor link from the message at the top of the page.

Your second suggestion does not help people who read or edit from public computers. And does not help people who don't know the link Special:Search in the first place.

Your third suggestion does not help the millions of people who don't read this Village pump page.

--David Göthberg (talk) 04:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I want more of an explanation of how it works on the search page itself (a terse cheat-sheet with examples should suffice). And possibly the insertable characters like can be found on the edit pages. SharkD (talk) 05:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Benefit to readers?

I don't see the benefit to non-editors. The only people who really care about namespaces other than the main namespace are editors. If I was a casual reader and saw "advanced search", I would assume it was actually more advanced than the normal search in a way that actually matters to me. It's not. --- RockMFR 23:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree, the "Advanced search" isn't really useful for non-editors. In fact, calling it "Advanced search" at all is somewhat misleading. All it does is search namespaces that aren't the default one, or what you have set in your preferences, other than that its the same search, it really doesn't give any advanced options like Yahoo's or Bugzilla's. The only real advanced options (Boolean search and category intersections) are available via the normal interface. Mr.Z-man 23:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The most beneficial feature for readers is the ability to search Misplaced Pages using Google. Algebraist 23:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Is 'Random article' truly random?

I've been meaning to ask this for the last couple years; the 'Random article' algorithm isn't really random, is it? If I click it, say, 50 times, I get several communes in France, but no villages elsewhere. Or I might get several articles on genes, but no athletes. The next day, the situation might be reversed. The likelihood of this happening is very low, so I'm thinking it uses an article's ID number (given to it when it was created?), and since there are clusters of articles are created by bots in a short period of time, one draws "too many" from one these clusters. Please, don't comment on probability unless you happen to know the algorithm 'Random article' uses. Thanks, 129.252.106.201 (talk) 04:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Every article is assigned a random number between 0 and 1 when it is created (these are indexed in SQL, which is what makes selection fast). When you click random article it generates a target random number and then returns the article whose recorded random number is closest to this target. Any clustering by content that you think you see is purely in the eye of the beholder. Dragons flight (talk) 04:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Technical_FAQ#Is the "random article" feature really random? - Icewedge (talk) 04:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

In simple English, it's not totally random, but it's not biased towards anything in particular. --Carnildo (talk) 05:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Or rather, it is biased, but randomly so, if that makes sense. For example. if you had three total articles, and they were randomly assigned the numbers .5 .51 and .49, you would see the latter two far far more often. Prodego 21:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

It actually picks a random number and then chooses the page whose preselected random number is the closest one greater than the random number chosen. In the event that there's no suitable number found (if the random number is larger than all page_random values), it wraps around to the lowest values since r21371. This is no less random, but more efficient from a database point of view. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 13:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I've tested this and it seems to choose the one with the lower page_id if the page_random values are equal, which isn't implausible on large projects (see Birthday paradox). — CharlotteWebb 17:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I got the same article again when I re-randomed a few days ago (I set up the kids' browser with a random article as home page). At one point it was set to reject RamBot articles, as they made up too large a % of the article count. Rich Farmbrough, 01:57 27 August 2008 (GMT).

But Rich, that's our most reliable content... <sob> — CharlotteWebb 02:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

page_random is a double, which in MySQL apparently means 53 precision bits. The birthday paradox implies that you'd need on the order of sqrt(n) different articles to cause a collision, instead of the order of n. In our case, this should mean on the order of 2, or about 47 million articles, before you'd expect a collision. This is very rough reasoning, and is possibly off by an order of magnitude, but there are likely going to be few if any collisions even for quite large numbers of articles, even with the birthday paradox. This is good, because if two pages share page_random, one will never turn up using the random page feature ― although it's not like that cycles through all pages anyway, so it hardly matters.

Anyway, the actual sorting order is undefined when page_randoms are equal. Since pages will normally be added to the index in the order of page_id, it's quite likely that the database will store the page with the lowest page_id first in the index leaf, and will then incidentally return it first when it needs to return the first result with that page_random. Depending on implementation, it could also easily be in descending page_id order, or could randomly alternate between orders. There are probably cases in InnoDB where the higher page_id will be returned. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

2 seems to be about 9 x 10 but I only saw 12 decimal places (using phpMyAdmin), so maybe my test was flawed by copying and pasting a truncated value (oops?). — CharlotteWebb 15:24, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Any conversion to decimal will probably lose precision in at least some cases. phpMyAdmin is probably truncating it. In any event, I did find a few thousand page_random collisions on enwiki, so my estimate was somewhat high (but not drastically). I didn't expect it to be good to within more than about an order of magnitude, and it was less than an order of magnitude higher than the number of pages enwiki has, so that's no surprise. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, it may be helpful to check for collisions like this every month or so and assign them new values for page_random so that they have a non-zero chance of being seen. — CharlotteWebb 13:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

No point in doing it every month, it should be at page creation. But there's not really much point in it. No page has a significant chance of being seen anyway. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Picture of the Day templates

Two parts: is there a way to make {{POTD}} and {{POTD commons}} display in a similar manner? I can find no way to put them next each other and not have it look weird.

Also, would it be at all easy/possible to create templates that show the Pictures of the Day for other language WP projects, such as fr:Wikipédia:Image du jour (which, btw, is an awesome name)? As far as I can tell, there are 14 PsOTD total, it would be nice to make a dynamic gallery of them. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 07:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC) User:Emil76/test4

I once made a template to display the {{POTD}} in the same way as POTD commons (which uses the layout that is also used on Commons for this). You can see the code at User:Emil76/test4. To display it in the way shown here use: {{User:Emil76/test4|float=right|thumb=yes|title=yes}}. Ofcourse you may also copy this template to your own usernamespace. Emil76 (talk) 07:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Move problem

Why can't I move 2004 Summer Paralympics medal count to 2004 Summer Paralympics medal table? When I try to do so it says "the title '2004 Summer Paralympics medal table' is protected from being created", but the protection log shows nothing. When I first tried this there was no article at the "medal table" title, so I tried creating a redirect there. It worked, so it's obviously not protected against creation. But I still get the same error message when I try to move the "medal count" article over the redirect. — jwillbur 20:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

This appears to be a persistent problem. I have come across the problem today with Sugar Hill Historic District (Detroit, Michigan), which was "protected against creation", but I was able to create a redirect. JPG-GR (talk) 19:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

And, again at Template Attribute Language Expression Syntax. JPG-GR (talk) 03:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Titleblacklist. — Werdna • talk 08:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Any idea which particular line on the blacklist is causing the problems? I couldn't see any, but then I'm not all that familiar with regexps. — jwillbur 15:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Template limits

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this thread (the first link therein is now here). The threads seem to revolve around template limits, although I can't seem to find a page where template limits were exceeded.

So if anyone has a trusty hacksaw to get through this, here are my questions:

• Template load is a server-side issue, right? A dial-up vs. DSL user will see exactly the same lag time to serve the page, i.e. the final HTML served up is precisely the same size regardless of whether there are 700 {{convert}} templates on the page or 700 instances of plain-text imperial-metric conversions - correct?
• And why do we care about server-side load for any given page? Doesn't the HTML version get cached by the squid servers? After the page is served up once after the most recent edit, does it matter any longer whether there were 77,000 templates on the page?

Thanks for any enlightenment! Franamax (talk) 21:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

And let me hedge that a bit. If {{convert}} is adding bluelinks to the units, it will produce a longer page; also if it was adding CSS styles (which it doesn't), the page would be longer. Other than that though? Franamax (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Right, the output from {{convert}} takes up the same number of bytes in the rendered web page as if the conversion was typed in by hand. So it doesn't matter for the web browser that downloads and views the page. And it also doesn't cost more bandwidth for Misplaced Pages to send out onto the Internet.

The reason we sometimes care about server-side load is that this isn't just about one page, this is about a template. The convert template internally uses several subtemplates that have to be fetched from the database each time it is rendered. And the convert template is used on 99,772 pages. And it is often used many times per page. And each page is not just rendered once after the last edit, it is re-rendered once a week (if it gets visitors, otherwise it is not re-rendered). That's a lot of rendering work.

I am not a dev so I don't know exactly how to interpret the "NewPP limit report" comment that the serves put in the rendered XHTML pages. (Try the "view page source" or similar menu option in your web browser and find the "NewPP limit report" in the source of the page.) But it seems to me that doing one single conversion like for instance {{convert|18|°C|°F}} costs about five times more than rendering an {{ambox}}. (I would say that the ambox is a medium complex template.)

But in spite of all that, I don't think we should worry. After all {{convert}} isn't that expensive. (It is surprisingly efficient considering how versatile it is.)

--David Göthberg (talk) 22:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's purely a server-side issue. But no, it's not always going to be served from cache. It will only be served from cache if someone else with the exact same parser-affecting settings as you has viewed it within the cache expiry period, and it hasn't been changed since then. In practice, 90%+ of page views are served from Squid and don't ever hit MediaWiki at all, and a large percentage of the remainder hit the parser cache ― but that's dominated by anonymous users. Logged-in users will see much lower parser cache hit rates, since it needs to store separate copies for separate date formats, separate redlink formats, separate stub thresholds, etc. Chances are good that a typical user will often be viewing pages following links from watchlists, for instance ― so you're viewing it very shortly after the last change was made, and odds are poor that someone else has seen it aside from you.

So basically, even though it's server-side, it will affect rendering time for a significant minority of page views. Before the template limits were put in place, some pages were taking well over ten seconds to render. Even with the limits, George W. Bush takes something like 15 seconds from the time I click the link to when the page starts to render, and the bulk of that is probably parsing time. With no limits on template complexity, it would be easy for careless users to create pages that take minutes to render. Such pages have been created even with the template limits. It's this latency that's the compelling reason for the limits, not so much the fact that it will increase server load. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Separate copies for separate date formats, separate redlink formats, separate stub thresholds, etc. ← Wow... Any chance some of the more esoteric user-settings can be migrated client-side? — CharlotteWebb 14:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

In particular, I have been wondering if it would be possible to migrate date formatting to the client... which would permit IP users to set date preferences via a cookie. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

For "stub thresholds" I would guess that caching one copy and hiding the byte count somewhere in the html of each link (letting the client's js/css/whatever decide what to do with it) would be more efficient than caching separate copies for a wide variety of thresholds (as nobody seems to agree what the proper limit is). — CharlotteWebb 13:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Confirmation

I suggest that there be a confirmation message that appears when a user is not signed in and trying to edit, to confirm with the user that he/she wants to edit without signing in. -- IRP (talk) 03:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There is:

You are not currently logged in. Editing this way will cause your IP address to be recorded publicly in this page's edit history. If you create an account, you can conceal your IP address and be provided with many other benefits. Messages sent to your IP can be viewed on your talk page.

Please do not save test edits. If you want to experiment, please use the sandbox.

24.0.66.109 (talk) 03:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I was suggesting a more noticeable popup message. -- IRP (talk) 03:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a nice idea, but for those who choose to edit anonymously (and there are some people who have racked up enough Misplaced Pages experience to be admin material while on an IP address) it would get infuriating in a very short time. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 04:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

How about making that message a bit more noticeable? A border or lightly colored background? WODUP 04:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's a balance between trying to get people who have inadvertently logged out to notice that they're logged out and scaring would-be anonymous contributors with a large notice about how they're not logged in. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

One possible solution is to make your personal logged-in experience a bit different, so you can immediately notice when you're logged out. For example, #wpSave {background:#77CC77} in your monobook.css should make your "Save" button green. —AlexSm 05:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Didn't we just have this discussion? Anomie⚔ 10:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, how about this: The same message that already exists will not pop up in a popup message, but it should be underneath the 3 buttons: Save Page, Show preview, and Show changes. The message should be highlighted in a noticable color. -- IRP (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we already had this discussion: Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 32#Prompting an editor, before submitting an edit, if not logged in. And there were some good suggestions there. Some might even be good as gadgets. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the information -- IRP (talk) 21:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

How about having a different default skin color for logged in editors vs. editors who are not logged in? Corvus cornix_talk 22:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Gadgets don't work for anons. — Werdna • talk 08:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: create MediaWiki:Wikibits.js

I propose that MediaWiki:Wikibits.js be created and serve as a central location for discussing this file. A page exists for MediaWiki:Common.js and probably other JS files as well. SharkD (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why you would want to create a useless and misleading "local system message" to discuss internal MediaWiki file. On the other hand, a separate discussion place somewhere on Meta or mediawiki.org might make sense, provided that you advertise it on MediaWiki_talk:Common.js, WP:US, etc. —AlexSm 05:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, there's nothing about the title of the proposed page that screams to me, "local system message!" However, if there is an existing benchmark for these sorts of things, then an alternative proposal would be appreciated. SharkD (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

All «MediaWiki:...» pages are local system messages by definition, so creating MediaWiki:Wikibits.js would give some users the wrong idea that this file can be changed just for English Misplaced Pages. —AlexSm 05:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah! I see! For some reason I thought MediaWiki:Wikibits.js linked to a page on mediawiki.org (i.e., an interwiki link). SharkD (talk) 05:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Issues with date formatting/sorting (described here) might be a good reason to make this file editable on a per-language wiki basis. SharkD (talk) 06:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there enough discussion outside of bugzilla to warrant the creation of talk pages for all files that fall under this category? Some of them? Lots of them? I'd rather see a systematic change than see a single talk page orphaned somewhere in space... SharkD (talk) 04:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

We have a general discussion forum for software changes. It's called wikitech-l. It does not make sense to have discussion pages for wikibits.js, unless we also have them for User.php, Title.php, and so on. — Werdna • talk 08:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Article sub-pages

Can pages in article space have subpages (such as Water melon/subpage), or are the forward slashes automatically converted into textual data? SharkD (talk) 04:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

No real subpages in the mainspace, sorry. Subpage-enabled namespaces are marked as such here. WODUP 04:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You can use slashes fine, it's just that the result is not considered a subpage. More info: Help:Subpage, mw:Help:Subpages. —AlexSm 05:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I see that "hierarchical organisation of articles is discouraged." I was thinking this might be useful in cases where articles are too long, but the "split" articles don't meet notability requirements, and are instead supposed to inherit the notability of the parent article. Oh well. SharkD (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Years ago, this feature was enabled in the main namespace, and in Misplaced Pages's early years, it was a common way of organising information, but it led to awkward titles and the creation of article forks written from a particular POV, so it was decided to abandon the subpages system. Warofdreams talk 08:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you have an example of an article where you believe "notability" is a concern? — CharlotteWebb 14:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Not off the top of my head. But I remember the issue being brought up a couple of times in WikiProject Video games and in AfD discussions. SharkD (talk) 03:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems there's a new article on the topic. SharkD (talk) 04:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that, do you have any examples of sub-pages, or distinct topics begging to be split onto separate pages, which may be in need of a more canonical title? — CharlotteWebb 13:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

You may want to take the issue to the discussion page I linked to (also, see here). I haven't been following along, but the whole point of the discussion seems to revolve around whether some articles may inherit the notability of the parent topic (or, rather, whether rules can be bent in some cases). I don't particularly like the idea, but I am suggesting that sub-articles may potentially constitute a separate class (i.e., not a "real", self-contained article) where this is the case. SharkD (talk) 16:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Even if there was a consensus to use file-directory style titles, I don't see how the "notability" guideline would be interpreted differently. On the other hand "notability guidelines and common sense" go together about as well as "water and oil", "vinegar and baking soda", or "bleach and ammonia" (as opposed to "fish and chips", "peaches and creme", or "vodka and orange juice"), so really g-d knows what would happen in that case. Seriously though would this mean Christianity in the United States would be under "United States/Religion/Christianity" or under "Christianity/Places/United States", or under something else I haven't thought of? — CharlotteWebb 16:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Denoting subpages by using backslashes is ponderous and unecessary. I am not a database expert, but my understanding is that the hierarchical taxonomy being described by having subpages (e.g. Hamlet/Prince Hamlet) is already dealt with by categories such as Category:Characters in Hamlet. In my view, the proposal to have subpages is just a thinly veiled attempt to assert that a subject without reliable secondary sources inhertits notabiility from a more notable subject, which is just not the case.--Gavin Collins (talk) 09:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

In this particular case Hamlet (character) would probably be preferable. — CharlotteWebb 13:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite see the connection in what you're saying. The existence of the article, Hamlet (the play, not the character), does not lend itself to the categorization scheme you suggest. I.e., placing the Hamlet article in Category:Characters in Hamlet isn't particularly sensible. SharkD (talk) 16:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Alright so maybe you mean to use Hamlet/Act 1 instead of Act 1 of Hamlet, Hamlet: Act 1, Hamlet, Act 1, Act 1 (Hamlet), or Hamlet (Act 1). I don't see how this would make things any easier or why anyone would expect it to have any effect on "notability" guidelines. — CharlotteWebb 16:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

One area where I could see such a thing used is in List-type articles. They're not really articles (they have no prose, and don't explain anything), yet they have some encyclopedic value. For instance, a list of things in Topic X could appear in X/List of Y in X. However, I wouldn't want to see this done, either. I'd rather see a separate namespace be used for lists (I think this would be a good idea) than resorting to this option. SharkD (talk) 19:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: add "my sandbox" link to top navbar

I propose that a "my sandbox" link be added to the top navbar, in between "my talk" and "my preferences". This might encourage users to work on articles in their sandbox before moving them to article space. SharkD (talk) 04:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a Gadget? --MZMcBride (talk) 06:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that would work too. Still, I'd like it if it were considered for all registered users. SharkD (talk) 06:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

x

This would be a very good feature for all users. I like the placement of the link that SharkD suggests, between "my talk" and "my preferences". And I like the suggested name "my sandbox".

It should not be a gadget since this is exactly for the kind of users who still probably have no idea what a gadget is. Instead we can make a gadget to turn off the link for those who don't want/need it anymore.

We should probably make it so the sandbox link isn't red. (For instance by using my sandbox instead of my sandbox.)

What page name should the sandbox have?

• /Sandbox
• /sandbox
• /Test1
• /test1

That is, upper or lower case first character? And should we name it "/Test1" to make it clear that one can make more test pages? (When I tell people to "Please try it in your own user space first" then I link them to Special:Mypage/Test1.) On the other hand, that "/Test1" link kind of gets wrong once one has more test pages, so simply "/sandbox" is perhaps more timeless? For "/Test1" I have a slight preference for upper case. While for "/sandbox" I have a slight preference for lower case since that is our standard naming for template sandboxes.

This feature could also be good for IP users. But we perhaps need to think a bit about where the IP user's sandbox should be placed.

--David Göthberg (talk) 11:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps IP users should just be pointed to THE sandbox with logged-in users pointed to their own?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Clubjuggle (talk • contribs) 12:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Sharks' original proposal and second Clubjuggle's IP suggestion - X201 (talk) 12:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with directing IPs to THE sandbox. I disagree with David Göthberg in that I don't think that the links need to be forced into blue links. Both the user and user talk pages start out as red links for newly-joined users until they actually get around to creating these pages. The same can be true for user sandboxes. SharkD (talk) 13:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think /Sandbox (upper case) would be fine. A custom message could appear there when starting the page describing how to create multiple (and sub-hierarchical) sandboxes, kind of how a custom message appears before creating any other aritcle. SharkD (talk) 14:02, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some of us who have multiple sandboxes or other subpages. I have a couple of pages of notes for articles I want to create or develop, and several I use to test templates or tables. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 12:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Gadget850: Well, there's nothing preventing you from having more sandboxes, and even from putting a link list on your "my sandbox" page to your other sandboxes and test pages. :)

Everyone: Linking IP users to Misplaced Pages:Sandbox might be a slight problem. Since already now that sandbox gets so frequently edited that I think those poor newbies must get edit conflicts all the time. But since we probably will be adding the "sandbox" link using javascript, then we can make it so it points to many different sandboxes. For instance we could have say 32 different sandboxes. (And we can increase that later if needed.) But we shouldn't choose the sandbox randomly, since the same user will expect to see the same sandbox the next time he/she visits it. So we could use the first byte in the user's IP address to choose which sandbox to use. That means the same user will usually see the same sandbox even when he visits some time later, since usually only the lower bytes in the IP address changes between sessions. I think that should be a no-brainer for our javascript coders to fix.

--David Göthberg (talk) 13:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at my sandbox page: User:SharkD/Sandbox. It serves more as a directory for all my other sandbox pages, which are stored as sub-pages under the main sandbox page. SharkD (talk) 13:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Where are we going to put the sandbox link for IPs? Algebraist 13:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The link could go in the same place, but direct to the wiki sandbox. SharkD (talk) 13:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Simple JS implementation:

addOnloadHook(function () {
    addPortletLink('p-personal', wgArticlePath.replace("$1", "Special:Mypage/Sandbox"), 'My sandbox', 'pt-sandbox', 'Your personal sandbox', null, document.getElementById('pt-preferences'));
});

Of course, if we added it to the sidebar instead, we could do it without JavaScript. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be great to have a "my sandbox" or (for (IP editors) a "sandbox" link on the navbar. I don't think it's so critical to explain to editors how to create multiple subpages; I'd much prefer the message box that shows up (when someone clicks on the red link) to simply explain that this is a personal subpage for testing of editing, with a link to WP:SUB for those who might be interested. But that's just details to be worked out later; the core concept seems really good.

As for IP editors, having their "sandbox" link go to one of 100+ sandboxes, depending on the first block in the IP address, has pluses and minuses. On the plus side, it minimizes edit conflicts that occur when lots of people are editing the standard sandbox simultaneously; on the minus side, it means that the bot or bots doing the cleanup need to cover 100+ pages. But again, I think this is a secondary issue; it would be great to be able to tell IP editors to just click the "sandbox" link at the top of their screen rather than provide them with a link to WP:SAND, and I think there is a reasonable chance that we'd have fewer "test" edits on real pages if there was a "sandbox" link visible at the top of screens. And maybe we'd even get a few more people to realize that they can edit Misplaced Pages. (On a lot of other wikis, if you click the "edit" tab, you just get a message saying that you have to log in first to edit.) -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

John Broughton: Right, the IP user sandboxes needs to be cleaned regularly by a bot, just like the current Misplaced Pages:Sandbox. And I can imagine there are cases when an admin has to delete the sandbox to get rid of especially nasty stuff from the edit history of the sandbox. And that was why I suggested using a fairly low number of such sandboxes. And by the way, I suggest naming them Misplaced Pages:Sandbox1 and so on.

Ilmari Karonen: Right, we could put the link in the sidebar. Although I think this is an important enough feature that it should probably be put on the navbar at the top of the page. (SharkD's original suggestion above.)

Ilmari and our other javascript experts: Does javascript have access to the IP user's name or IP number so we can use it to pick which sandbox to send the IP user?

--David Göthberg (talk) 18:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Special:Mypage/sandbox seems to work just fine for anon users (lower case is better IMHO, in the same form as skinname.css/js) --Splarka (rant) 08:04, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

@David Göthberg: JavaScript has no way of finding a user's IP address alone - one has to use server-side code (i.e. PHP) or (ugh) a Java applet. x42bn6 Talk Mess 04:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Splarka: Yes, Special:Mypage/sandbox works for IP users too. But that would mean after a year or so we would have perhaps a million IP user sandboxes, some of which might hold pretty nasty content. And some search engines do index all pages on Misplaced Pages...

x42bn6: Ouch, seems you are right. I checked around, the "wgUserName" javascript variable is only filled in for logged in users. And since those variables are set in the rendered page header it would probably destroy the squid caching if the user name (IP number) of IP users were set in the page header. So for now it seems our best option is to direct the "sandbox" link for IP users to Misplaced Pages:Sandbox.

For the logged in users I prefer we use lower case "/sandbox" for the "my sandbox" link. Since as Splarka mentioned above, we already use lower case for the user's own monobook.js and monobook.css. And we use lower case for the now standardised subpages for templates such as "/doc", "/sandbox" and "/testcases".

Then after some weeks if people like these things then I suggest we request the making of a special page named Special:Sandbox that links to Special:Mypage/sandbox for logged in users and to a numbered public sandbox for IP users. But let's leave that aside for now.

Since all comments above have been so positive I think we can declare a consensus to do this. The only thing that remains is to decide on upper case or lower case "/Sandbox" or "/sandbox". (Sorry to be picky about this, but we can not change that spelling later since then a lot of users will have a problem to find their old /sandbox.)

--David Göthberg (talk) 15:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not even a javascript programmer, but I have figured out how we can do the numbered sandboxes for the IP users: When a new user visits we can randomly assign one of the numbered sandboxes, and then store the result in a javascript cookie. Then if the user comes back an hour later we can assign the same sandbox to that user. Of course, if the user has set his browser to clear cookies between sessions then he gets assigned a new sandbox. But at least the user will see the same sandbox in all open windows during the same browser session, which is more important than seeing the same sandbox some hours later. It seems simple enough that I could cut and paste some cookie examples I found on the web to do it. But to not break anything I should probably leave that to our javascript experts.

But I'll deploy a simpler code at MediaWiki:Common.js first. See the code I am showing at MediaWiki talk:Common.js#"My sandbox" link for the personal tools menu.

--David Göthberg (talk) 20:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. SharkD (talk) 06:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Alternate projects link section in sidebar

In addition to the "languages" box in the sidebar, I propose that a new box be added to link to equivalent pages in other projects. For instance, if Wikimedia Commons has a "Village pump", then it would be linked to from this box when viewing this page. SharkD (talk) 04:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

For clarification: we're talking about Commons, the Foundation, and sister projects like Wikibooks and Wiktionary, right? And I assume you're suggesting this because it might benefit pages in projectspace, since within articles (for example) we typically use templates to link to relevant pages in other projects, and of course links like wikt:Noun work fine as well.

Is this a widespread problem? Most projectspace pages are fairly static, so it's easy to add a link in the "See also" section of a page. Village pump pages aren't, but I can't think of many other pages besides noticeboards that are dynamic, not static. And why wouldn't posting such links at the top of talk/discussion pages be sufficient, for dynamic pages?

And finally, while this proposal certainly has some technical aspects to it, it would appear this would be better posted at WP:VPPR than at this page.

Yeah, I mean the sister projects like commons. Typically, there are links in the See also sections as well as within templates, but I thought that a box on the sidebar would be more consistent (i.e. the same methodology used across all of MediaWiki). SharkD (talk) 21:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that SharkD has a nice idea here. I would like to use this in articles to link to Wiktionary and Wikispecies when appropriate. And yeah, this would be even more useful in the "Misplaced Pages:" namespace. Technically we would need a slightly different syntax to add such links, since currently a link like ] becomes an interwiki link in the sidebar, while a link like ] simply becomes the link wikt:Taxi. But hey, take a look at the wikt:Taxi page! Wiktionary apparently has a such a system already!

--David Göthberg (talk) 18:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

WikiProjects can design their main pages any way they want, if they want sister project links, they can add them. Corvus cornix_talk 18:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Corvus cornix: This is not about the main page, this is about the sidebar used on all pages.

--David Göthberg (talk) 15:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the change would encourage general visitors to check out the other projects. (Am I being naive?) SharkD (talk) 03:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Now at bugzilla. SharkD (talk) 03:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Monobook.js not updated correctly

I recently added Twinkle to my monobook.js but now I have to press Ctrl + F5 on every page in order to get the extra tabs to load up; every page automatically loads without the TW tabs, and only after a hard refresh (which, again, I have to do every time I click on a page) do they show up. Any advice? It Is Me Here (talk) 12:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I have this problem frequently in Internet Explorer. Forcing a hard refresh, and even deleting the temporary files first, doesn't always have an immediate effect. I never have this problem in Firefox though. SharkD (talk) 14:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Twinkle isn't compatible with IE; you're going to have to use either Firefox, Safari or Opera. Maxim (☎) 15:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right, that explains it! It Is Me Here (talk) 11:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Preview categories

Is it technically possible to show categories in the Preview Pane? It seems half my edits are correcting my own errors in category names because they can't be previewed.--Appraiser (talk) 13:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This can be annoying. However, making the category visible may cause the edit page to appear in the category as a side effect. SharkD (talk) 14:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. When you are previewing a "whole page edit", or a "section edit" of a section which contains categories (usually the last section e.g. "==External links==") the categories will appear in the preview, in the same place they appear in the saved page (e.g. at the very bottom in monobook skin). "Hidden" categories are visible at the bottom of the edit screen regardless of whether they are in the section you are editing, and regardless of whether you have chosen the " Show hidden categories" option in Special:Preferences. — CharlotteWebb 14:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

It is useful to be able to see them to check for accidentally-induced redlinks by virute of mispeelings and the like. As I say below, I'm certain the list at the bottom of the screen uysed to show this, as I recall using it for this very purpose (I think!). Splash - tk 14:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

That used to be right at the very bottom of the whole screen (and not merely at the bottom of the preview), along with a list of templates. I'm 99.3% certain of this, but it certainly does not appear at present. It appears however, that a hidden category does get shown right at the bottom of the screen. I think this may be a bug, as I'm sure it's a changed behaviour. Splash - tk 14:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

...certainly does not appear at present ← Still not sure what you mean ? — CharlotteWebb 15:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what or why or when, but the people reporting this were not imagining it. I experienced the same thing over the past few days, although it seems to have gone back to the previous behavior of displaying the categories. Although I thought it a little odd, I was busy with other things and didn't feel inclined to report it. older ≠ wiser 17:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't notice the problem, but I'm not doubting that it existed; in any case, categories seem to be showing again (at the very bottom of the screen) when doing a preview. Those who think this is a problem are welcome to comment at Bugzilla #2679, Show category links above the edit box. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 20:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Last time I checked categories didn't appear in preview pages. It's been a while since I've edited any categories, though. SharkD (talk) 21:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if I was (anti-)hallucinating earlier, but I do see them now. Using a different PC, but same Firefox version. Ah well. Maybe I actually looked at the edit window page (where templates appear but categories don't) rather than the preview page. Didn't think so, though. Splash - tk 23:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I actually don't know if this is what others were referring to, but what I had been seeing earlier is still happening. When I create a redirect, I often will categorize it as well. These are typically tiny or historical settlements that I am redirecting to the next larger administrative unit. I will often tag the redirect with {{R with possibilities}} and a category like Category:Unincorporated communities in Michigan. Previously, both the text of {{R with possibilities}} and any other categories would display in preview. Lately (and currently) not only does the text of {{R with possibilities}} not appear at all in the redirect (preview or after saving) as it used to, but also the categories do not appear in the preview, although they do appear after saving. older ≠ wiser 17:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not what others are referring to, but actually a real and current bug. The lack of visible categories in the preview is a very odd side effect of previewing a redirect, not of previewing a page which is categorized via a template. — CharlotteWebb 17:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Also see . — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Transclude historical image?

Is it possible to contrive a means of transcluding an old version of an image, ie. a previously-uploaded one from its history? Easy to get a URL to it, but can I persuade it to show as an image? Splash - tk 14:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

In the same way that you can't wikilink to an old version of a page, no. I don't think it's really the idea: the whole point of the version system is that each new version is supposed to be an improvement on the previous content, so why would you want to use an out-of-date version? Happy‑melon 14:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The more precise comparison is that you can't transclude an old version of a template either. Both of these features might however, have a few niche uses. Sometimes I have wished that old versions of articles used whatever version of the template which was current at that time, especially in cases where the names of some important parameters have been changed (so that article revisions using the old syntax don't work anymore), or more inane cases where some nimrod has renamed the template and deleted the redirect, but I digress. — CharlotteWebb 15:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree; some times, one has to conduct a full-blown historical research just to see exactly how an article looked three years ago. (And even then, there are usually several deleted images. (groan)) Waltham, The Duke of 21:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

No, didn't think it was possible. My application is that the UK is fiddling with tax rates during the financial year - we have Image:UK tax percent.svg and friends, and I'd like for that to have (from its birth) in its history a list of how the tax has changed over time. In this exceptionally unusual year where tax rates are changing mid-way through, I'd like to display the new graph and the old one for a time. That means uploading the old one to a separate image file, even though its already stored on Wikimedia servers. I'll just live with the new one only, I guess. Splash - tk 23:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

If there is likely to be any future use for the historic images, each new version should be uploaded to a new title - probably including the year or date in the title. Warofdreams talk 08:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Lots of changes to "wikibits.js"

I've made lots of changes to "wikibits.js". The edited version can be found here. The changes to the file are described here. You can experiment with the code by copying it to your "monobook.js". The changes include several improvements to sortable tables. I'd appreciate some feedback. SharkD (talk) 22:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I posted some feedback on User talk:SharkD/Sandbox/wikibits 4 as I could not work out how to test it. -84user (talk) 10:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! I replied to your comments on the talk page. SharkD (talk) 11:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The bugzilla entries (including patches) for this(-ese) proposals can be found here: . SharkD (talk) 03:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

One more: . SharkD (talk) 16:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Another: . SharkD (talk) 06:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: collapse related categories

Some articles fall into several related categories (such as the Category:20th century video games family of categories). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to allow such categories to be replaced with a single link to the parent category in order not to clutter up the article. Thoughts? SharkD (talk) 11:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

In a tree of categories, an article should only be in the most detailed subcategories; parent and grandparent categories should be omitted.--Appraiser (talk) 15:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't take issue with their placement. The problem is when an article belongs to multiple categories (such as 1996 Japanese video games, 1997 North American video games, 1998 European video games, etc.) that all have the same parent category. In this case, replacing the link displayed in the article with a link to the parent category would save space and make the article look less cluttered. Maybe the category could even be expanded somehow to reveal the individual categories (though I'm not sure how this would work exactly...) SharkD (talk) 15:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I like this idea due to articles/templates/etc where multiple parties (e.g. countries) are involved, e.g. a conflict or war. So, something like "...History of A | History of B | History of C | History of D ..." could become "...History of A / B / C / D...". I guess the parser would need to look for, group together and then abbreviate all identically-constructed category names. Sardanaphalus (talk) 16:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

That would work too. SharkD (talk) 17:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It would probably be better to add a flag to the category(-ies) in order to force this behavior instead of relying on the parser to make a best guess. For some categories the behavior might not be desirable, and there might be cases where a category fits the naming scheme but is not actually related in any way, causing the parser to produce false results. SharkD (talk) 20:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Added to bugzilla. SharkD (talk) 03:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Image category help

How do I place images like Image:FreeCol colony screen.jpg into a category? Will "creating the page" cause problems? Thanks! SharkD (talk) 11:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You can do it, but I think WikiCommons would be a better place to created categories of images.--Appraiser (talk) 15:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, the nice thing about having the categories be on Misplaced Pages is that they appear along side the articles when viewing the category. I.e., readers viewing the category may find images they hadn't looked for and be pleasantly surprised. SharkD (talk) 15:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You can link to the commons categories, see {{commonscat}} (not "common scat" mind you). — CharlotteWebb 15:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If I use {{commonscat}} for category B (located on commons), will this cause all the images in that particular category to appear in category A (located on en:WP)? This is what I'm trying to achieve. SharkD (talk) 20:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

No, this is just the standard way of linking to a commons category from a project other than commons. Attempting to categorize commons images locally on each project is redundant and confusing (as there is no corresponding local content). — CharlotteWebb 13:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Bot request involving publishing category intersections on the 'Net

I made a bot request, here, involving the publishing of article/category data in table format on the Web. I would appreciate it if you guys were to take a look at it and critique it on a technical basis. Is such a bot system feasable? Are there good reasons this should not be done? Any and all comments are welcome. Thanks! SharkD (talk) 15:19, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Autoblocks

Sorry if I am bringing up an old issue again but is there any plans to replace this? Thanks, GDonato (talk) 15:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Server kitties gone wild?

I have two or three times now submitted an edit which goes into deep lag and returns the Wikimedia Foundation error screen. During this lag, I can check my watchlist and see the change already registered. Anyone else seeing this glitch? Did someone forget to pay the power bills for one of the servers? Franamax (talk) 23:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

All fine here. Algebraist 23:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, nevermind, all gone now. Weird though - maybe I should try the page I was working on again, just to be sure. Franamax (talk) 23:56, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Free and clear. I'm not paranoid, it's just that they're singling me out for persecution. Franamax (talk) 00:00, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Franamax: I don't know what page you worked on but: If you save a change to a very widely used template then it takes more than one minute to put that job on the job queue. Then you get a pretty scary looking error message after your save has "timed out". However the servers will continue to put that job on the job queue and finish the job even after you have gotten that error message. The same thing would be true if another page for some reason takes too long to save. So before you try to save again I recommend you open another browser tab and view the page you were working with, to see if it already is saved or not.

And yeah, the servers have been a bit twitchy lately. That happens every now and then but our server admins usually fix it within some hours. (Hugs and kisses to our server admins, they seem to be working 24/7.)

--David Göthberg (talk) 16:03, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Monobook.js fails to change

I changed the code of my monobook.js file and then removed it and then replaced it. The change does not affect my skin. --frogger3140 (talk) 00:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you bypassed your cache? If that doesn't help, what browser are you using? Algebraist 00:54, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

And I could be wrong, but shouldn't all those custombuttons be inside an addonloadHook (function(){})? Algebraist 00:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I copied this script. --frogger3140 (talk) 01:01, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've had problems bypassing my cache in Internet Explorer. Sometimes it takes, sometimes it doesn't. Never had problems in Firefox. SharkD (talk) 14:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm using Safari 3! --frogger3140 (talk) 15:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Try purging the file using this URL. SharkD (talk) 17:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Image not showing

Please help! Can't get uploaded image to show up in the page . . why? I.A.Contino (talk) 03:19, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Image names are case sensitive. This edit failed because of a lower case 'i' in Image:Absolutistvan.jpg instead of Image:AbsolutIstvan.jpg. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Something weird in our neighbourhood

on Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2008-08-25/News and notes some of the wikilinks are not visible in the project page although you can see they are there in the edit screen.

Here is the raw wikitext:

* The ] has reached 90,000 entries. * The ] has reached 60,000 articles. * The ] has reached 100 entries.

This then comes out as:

• The has reached 90,000 entries.
• The has reached 60,000 articles.
• The has reached 100 entries.

I've tried this with firefox 3.01 and Safari Version 3.1.2 (4525.22) on Mac OS X 10.4.11 (8S2167). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Filceolaire (talk • contribs) 09:16, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Add a colon before the language prefix, or it will show up on the left. --NE2 09:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Database error

I keep getting:

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "ExternalStoreDB::store". MySQL returned error "1030: Got error 136 from storage engine (10.0.2.107)".

-- User:Docu

I got that one too earlier today. After a complicated edit too - luckily Refresh pulled it out of the dumpster. See my post above - I'm sure the servers are hungover today, or at least one of them needs a drug test. Franamax (talk) 10:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I concur. If they are shown to be guilty then they should have their medals stripped from them! It seems to have suddenly started working again in the last few minutes. I reported it at the help desk The Bald One 11:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

This just started for me too. older ≠ wiser 10:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Me too (if this saves). Carcharoth (talk) 10:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Again - 10.0.2.107 needs euthanizing it seems. Franamax (talk) 11:06, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

See https://wikitech.leuksman.com/view/Server_admin_log --- User:Docu

Me too

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:
    (SQL query hidden)
from within function "ExternalStoreDB::store". MySQL returned error "1030: Got error 136 from storage engine (10.0.2.102)".

I received this error when trying to save User:^.^/Status. It has not occurred again. Just thought I might report it anyway. — ^.^ 11:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

on the same note I keep on receiving similar errors. They occur on random pages that seem to have no link. Normally happens to me when trying to save a page. ·Add§hore· /_Cont 11:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

That happened to me when I was trying to add a CSD tag when Twinkle wasn't working. --frogger3140 (talk) 15:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I got it an hour or two ago while simply trying to post to a talk page. Luckily I always copy to the paste buffer before I hit "save". Baseball Bugs 16:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

If that happens on Firefox and you've just pressed "Save" to save content, you can just press F5, and nothing is lost. D.M.N. (talk) 16:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've encountered this error twice today, but never before. SharkD (talk) 17:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've been here for about 3 1/2 years and this is the first time I recall seeing it. I'll get "page not found" from time to time, but not this. Baseball Bugs 19:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Database Error - Page Not Found

I get a database error where the database "cannot find a page that it should find" at this URL I think the problem is the old ID is missing from the database.

I'm not very sophisticated at the working of Misplaced Pages but the missing page relates to a very hot topic and I am concerned that someone may have manipulated the database to delete the page. Can this be checked? Tom94022 (talk) 19:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It looks like your URL is missing a '4' at the end. That would give http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/Thunderbird2&diff=prev&oldid=234474144 which is the page creation. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Lupin's Anti-vandal tool

Hey guys. I installed this tool on my monobook.js a few months ago. To see the changes, I always had to bypass my browser cache ...however, no matter how many times I do that now, I am unable to use the non-admin rollback button, even though it worked before. It always says "Internal Server Error" and when I check the error report, it says "Line 275; Char: 2; Undefined is null or not an object; Code: 0". I don't know what sort of junk that's supposed to mean, but I DO know that the error might be a bug or something that affected User:Lupin/recent2.js. I know that this tool is "out-dated", but I use it anyway and it works on any computer in, say, the library. Does anyone know how this works? Thanks, ~ Troy (talk) 20:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

...PS: normal admin rollback works with me only sometimes as I was just recently granted the rollback function (it was always like that). Whenever it doesn't work, it asks me to use non-admin rollback, so that's where the issue is noticeable. ~ Troy (talk) 20:36, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I gave Troy some suggestions here, but I don't know if that's done it or not.--chaser - t 02:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Template/CSS help

I'm trying to achieve this effect in this article using this template. There are two problems: 1) it only works in Internet Explorer, AFAIK; 2) it screws up the alphabetic sorting of the table column. I was hoping someone here might have a solution. Thanks! SharkD (talk) 20:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It works fine in FF3, Opera and Safari. You could use a hidden sortkey to sort out the sorting. Algebraist 20:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, sorry I didn't specify the issue in better detail! It's been a few weeks since I actually worked on the article/template.

The problem in Firefox is when the cell's text is too long. In Firefox a line-beak occurs between the audio link and the cell text, causing the cell text and audio link to appear on different lines. In IE the cell text instead wraps when it comes into contact with the audio link. To see this problem in effect, take a look at the thirteenth row in the table. (You may have to decrease the size of the browser window first, as the problem will not occur if the browser window is very wide.) I'm not sure which browser is technically working "correctly", but the IE behavior is the one that is desired. SharkD (talk) 20:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the template docs, if there are line-break/overlap issues you should specify the widths for each span using the optional parameters, lw and rw. Algebraist 23:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Hehe. I wrote the doc. Anyway, I tried this and another user reverted it (it only works when the table column has a width specified for it), so I'm looking for a better all-around solution. SharkD (talk) 03:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Why not just put the text and link in different columns? Algebraist 13:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Putting the links in another column is ugly, and would result in the table tabulating metadata instead of only data. That said, maybe the borders between the two columns could be collapsed, but I think this would be more trouble than it's worth. SharkD (talk) 16:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Toilet history problem

I was wondering if anyone can give an explanation of what happened on the article Toilet. Due to Gwarp moves I move protected the article. A further attempt to move the article failed but the article move command has appeared in the article history as per diifs. Why has an entry been made in the history? Keith D (talk) 21:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't a move. It was an edit which added a space to line 1 and made an edit summary which made it sound like a move. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:38, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I should have looked closer - too much Grawp at the moment, time for bed. Keith D (talk) 23:01, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Excluding editors unlikely to vandalize from filtered recent changes

I often use Lupin's anti-vandalism tool to scroll recent changes for vandalism. The tool works great, but the feed is cluttered with perfectly legitimate edits and vandalism reversions that get caught b/c it operates with a bad-words list. One way I've often considered to exclude these is to create a whitelist of admins and others whose edits don't get picked up by the tool. The AWB checkpage and rollbackers would be a good start to such a list (this isn't by any means an effort to create a new "trusted" user class). Would it be possible to implement this somehow, as all Lupin's code appears to be in his userspace? (I would contact Lupin, but he or she hasn't edited in almost eight months.)--chaser - t 22:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The User:Lupin/recent2.js tool grabs data from the Special:Recentchanges RSS feed , which currently allows you to ignore bots, anons, etc. with &hidebots=1, &hideanons=1, etc. in the url. Adding more options for other access levels e.g. &hideadmins=1, &hiderollbacker=1, &hideboardvote=1, etc. would be the most efficient way to ignore certain user-groups, because loading only the diffs you want to see is less wasteful than loading all of them and telling the script to disregard many of them, and would require only minimal changes to the script (namely the url it grabs from). Talk to the devs about this. — CharlotteWebb 14:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Whether a change was made by a user who's anonymous or a bot is stored in the recentchanges table. Whether they're an admin, rollbacker, boardvote, etc. is not. It would require a join to the user_groups table and would be a lot less efficient. In some cases you'd probably have to scan the whole table, too: try searching for edits by developers . . . Bots and anons are "efficient enough" because you can expect a substantial but not overwhelming percentage of edits to be by each group. So at most you should have to scan two or three or ten times as many rows as you really need, not thousands of times as many. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, failing the first option, how about including the user-rights of each user whose edits appear in the RSS feed? Then the script would know which edits to assume good (ignore) without having to hit the API or whatever for each unrecognized name. — CharlotteWebb 22:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It could be done, sure, if there's enough demand for it. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 14:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Did you read Simetrical's reply above? He clearly says that, when generating the recentchanges table, checking for those things is not conducive to reasonable performance. It could, of course, be included in the recentchanges table, but it seems like a bit of a big ask for minimal benefit. OTOH, I'm working on some new fields for recentchanges, so it could be snuck in there, presuming there was sufficient demand/need for it. — Werdna • talk 06:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It would be an issue to filter by it. It wouldn't be an issue to just provide the data. One extra query on all the user_id's would do it. (Joining would be a bad idea because it would repeat rows.)

You couldn't include it in the recentchanges table unless you did something ugly like concatenating the group names, because users can have multiple groups, so it should really be in its own table. Plus you'd have to maintain it, if it were denormalized like that, which would be a pain. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 14:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Enable <kbd> & <samp>_&_<samp>-2008-08-31T23:22:00.000Z">

The standard HTML elements <kbd>...</kbd> and <samp>...</samp> have been disabled by MediaWiki for no particular reason that I can conceive of. These are perfectly valid elements with with clear semantic meanings. Right now, people are either abusing <code> (which has a different semantic significance), or misusing <tt> (which has no semantic significance and exists only for futzing with the presentation, and while not officially deprecated by W3C yet has, like <i> and <b>, been effectively deprecated by the Web development community at large for around a decade now) in order to work around these Wiki-missing elements. For CSS purposes, <samp> should probably be styled exactly as MediaWiki styles <code>, and <kbd> identically to <code> but boldfaced. NB: They are all inline, not block, elements. Just to be clear, they should not be simply "allowed" and then translated into <code> or anything else, but should appear in the post-processed source as received by the browser just like <code> does, since they have independent semantic significance beyond their display style. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 23:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)_&_<samp>"> _&_<samp>">

After looking up what these elements are used for, I agree that both <samp> and <kbd> should be enabled. Both of these look quite useful, and overuse of <code> certainly can make it hard to distinguish source code, user input, and user output. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 23:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Template:Bug —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)_&_<samp>"> _&_<samp>">

Title blacklist affecting my userpage

I can't seem to create any pages in my userspace as the username ^.^ is in the page title blacklist. Is it possible to rectify this problem so I can create pages in my userspace (the ones that are already there were moved over by a crat when I got renamed). At the very least, could a kind admin move User talk:HappyMan/Archive 6 to User talk:^.^/Archive 6. (HappyMan is my ASCII compatible account). Thanks — ^.^ 00:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be a way to set individual entries on the title blacklist to apply only to editors who aren't autoconfirmed. Alternatively, there's also the handy-dandy Title whitelist if some helpful admin speaks whatever programming language these two are written in. Talk page archive moved.--chaser - t 00:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Whitelisted. Mr.Z-man 00:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

template help

Can someone help me add a parameter to {{icu-saved}}? I'd like to be able to add "Nested=yes" so that it can be collapsed like regular WP tags. The WICU project has seveal tags but this one seems to be the one that stays on articles however they do more of a"treat and release" concept so the regular project banner doesn't seem as approprite in the cases of articles that have been "released". Banjeboi 03:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Could you provide an example of a template that features the desired behavior? SharkD (talk) 04:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Template:WPBannerMeta. Banjeboi 06:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. Anomie⚔ 11:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yea! Thank you!!! Banjeboi 02:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

When editing a page, whitespace above editing box

When editing a page (that is, on the page you get to after clicking the "Edit this page" link), there is some whitespace above the editing box that wasn't there before today, which I think is caused by something like:

<div id="wikiPreview"></div>

getting changed to:

<div id="wikiPreview"></div><p><br /></p>

Where was this change made?

—Lowellian (reply) 04:15, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

In EditPage.php: look at the comments to rev:40184 and maybe some other revisions as well. —AlexSm 04:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the info, AlexSm. But this is not cool at all; that unnecessary whitespace is very annoying and shoves the edit box down too far. As far as I can tell from looking at the revisions, under the previous code, the

<p><br /></p>

part was only generated when there was actually a Preview DIV with content in it (which makes sense, because if there is a Preview block, we want there to be some space between the Preview block and the edit box for visual clarity). But now, that whitespace is generated even when there is no Preview (that is, you haven't clicked the Preview button, so there is only a Preview DIV with no content). This is unnecessary whitespace that looks rather glaring. Any idea how to get the attention of the developers to fix this, or alternatively, how I can modify my monobook.css to get rid of the whitespace?

—Lowellian (reply) 19:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Saying "I don't like it, for the following reasons" would be sufficient to express your displeasure with the change. — Werdna • talk 07:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but who should I contact to get this changed? Or like I said, alternatively, how I can modify my monobook.css to get rid of the whitespace? —Lowellian (reply) 17:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Global block overwrites local block?

Does a global softblock of an IP address overwrite a local hardblock of the same? --Oxymoron 06:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

No. — CharlotteWebb 14:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

No global block will ever "overwrite" a local block. To say this implies that the local block is somehow removed. The effect of both a global block and a local block is additive. — Werdna • talk 07:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLPN

Something very odd has happened here. I did an edit. and the bottom half of the page has vanished, along with its edit history from what I can make out. This is what it looks like now Ty 10:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Now it's suddenly all reappeared again - the rest of the page and the related part of the edit history. Ty 10:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

And now it's half vanished, along with the edit history related to that part. Also talk page is a red link. Here's the edit history with edits missing:

• (cur) (last) 10:08, 1 September 2008 Tyrenius (Talk | contribs | block) (161,385 bytes) (→Talk: John Michell (writer): heading level from 2 to 3) (rollback | undo)
• ((cur) (last) 09:50, 1 September 2008 Tyrenius (Talk | contribs | block) (161,383 bytes) (rv self - something not working here) (undo)
• ((cur) (last) 09:48, 1 September 2008 Tyrenius (Talk | contribs | block) (160,083 bytes) (move post down to related post) (undo)
• ((cur) (last) 03:46, 31 August 2008 Privatemusings (Talk | contribs | block) (161,383 bytes) (→Ongoing WP:BLP-related concerns: add danny) (undo)
• ((cur) (last) 00:37, 20 August 2008 SageMab (Talk | contribs | block) (161,165 bytes) (Talk: John Michell (writer)) (undo)
• ((cur) (last) 00:30, 20 August 2008 SageMab (Talk | contribs | block) (159,865 bytes) (→Talk:living author: defaming continues) (undo)
• ((cur) (last) 16:19, 15 August 2008 Ciupicat (Talk | contribs | block) (158,721 bytes) (→Template:Lidia Matticchio Bastianich) (undo)
• ((cur) (last) 16:18, 15 August 2008 Ciupicat (Talk | contribs | block) (158,721 bytes) (→Ongoing WP:BLP-related concerns) (undo)
• ((cur) (last) 04:25, 15 August 2008 Edison (Talk | contribs | block) (158,356 bytes) (→Proposal for a vote) (undo)

There's too much that had vanished to show it all here, but here's a sample of what it looks like when it's working OK:

• (cur) (last) 18:27, 15 August 2008 Wikidemon (Talk | contribs | block) (69,552 bytes) (→Mocking a BLP at Media Matters for America: evil steve jobs) (undo)
• (cur) (last) 18:09, 15 August 2008 Noroton (Talk | contribs | block) (69,012 bytes) (→Mocking a BLP at Media Matters for America: wrong on all counts) (undo)
• (cur) (last) 17:45, 15 August 2008 Gamaliel (Talk | contribs | block) m (68,332 bytes) (→Mocking a BLP at Media Matters for America) (undo)
• (cur) (last) 17:44, 15 August 2008 Gamaliel (Talk | contribs | block) (68,331 bytes) (→Mocking a BLP at Media Matters for America) (undo)
• (cur) (last) 06:36, 15 August 2008 MiszaBot II (Talk | contribs | block) m (67,987 bytes) (Archiving 1 thread(s) (older than 4d) to Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive50.) (undo)
• (cur) (last) 05:48, 15 August 2008 Wikidemon (Talk | contribs | block) (69,708 bytes) (→Mocking a BLP at Media Matters for America: comment) (undo)
• (cur) (last) 04:25, 15 August 2008 Noroton (Talk | contribs | block) (68,971 bytes) (→Mocking a BLP at Media Matters for America: response to LaughingVulcan) (undo)

It is at the moment OK again.

Ty 10:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Page text not found

While looking for potential image copyvios in an upload log, I encountered the following on two images (Image:Jericho rosales.jpg & Image:Kristine hermosa.jpg):

The database did not find the text of a page that it should have found, named "Image:Kristine hermosa.jpg".

This is usually caused by following an outdated diff or history link to a page that has been deleted.

If this is not the case, you may have found a bug in the software. Please report this, making note of the URL.

Well, it isn't a diff or a history link, and there's nothing in the image logs to suggest they've been deleted. So I'm reporting it here as advised. Thanks. --62.164.255.93 (talk) 10:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Might be relevant: Template:Bug —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Important RFC on Notability!

Note that Misplaced Pages talk:Notability/RFC:compromise is now open for business and your comments would be very welcome. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Custom edit messages

Per the August 11 Signpost, we can now add custom edit notices per page. This looks like a much better solution than using comments in the article. Does anyone understand how to implement this? --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 11:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If MediaWiki:Editnotice-2 is created, it will appear when editing any user-page. If MediaWiki:Editnotice-2-Gadget850 is created, it will appear when editing your user-page. Try it . — CharlotteWebb 14:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Check out template {{editnotice}}. It has documentation that explains how this works. (And no, I didn't make that template.) One thing worth mentioning is that only admins can create editnotices since they are placed in the fully protected "MediaWiki:" namespace.

--David Göthberg (talk) 15:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah well thanks for that link. Now I feel stupid for going to read the source code . On the other hand if the notices are being added through a template it would be possible to make certain messages editable by regular users (or at least auto-confirmed) by using a vivid array of parser-functions and template sub-pages. Strictly by the "it's a wiki, get over it" principle this wouldn't be a bad idea if the key intent is to at least partly replace <!-- hidden html comments --> which can be added or removed by anyone. I don't see it happening though. — CharlotteWebb 15:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to all. This will be helpful in maintaining list articles that have criteria for inclusion. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 15:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

CharlotteWebb: Well, I too went reading the source code and figured out that the naming was something like "MediaWiki:Editnotice-Namespace-Pagename". But how to write the namespace and the pagename was not clear. So I decided to search with Special:PrefixIndex/MediaWiki:Editnotice to see if someone else already had tried the different spellings. And thus I found the existing notices and the template used on them. Now afterwards I feel slightly silly since it would have been much simpler to use Special:Search and search all namespaces for "editnotice".

Gadget850: Yeah, this will be very useful. But I think the devs have been a bit too fast in deploying this one. Even though I have worked a lot with namespace detection I find it confusing to work with namespace numbers. Sure, it makes the server code simpler, but it can't be that much code to translate between local namespace names and the numbers. Using namespace names would be much more user-friendly.

--David Göthberg (talk) 15:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

And the template is even more useful when I remove #talkpagetext {display:none} from my .css. I can't remember what I was testing with that. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 16:15, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it would probably better to omit the namespace number and just use the {{FULLPAGENAME}} e.g. "Editnotice-Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(technical)" instead of "Editnotice-4-Village_pump_(technical)". — CharlotteWebb 16:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If we want to have the naming convention changed it should be done now, not after we have thousands of these message pages. — CharlotteWebb 16:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I would favour this change, assuming there's no technical problem with it. Has anyone posted it to Bugzilla yet? Algebraist 18:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure the impending response would be "but namespace titles might change, especially on foreign language projects with incomplete localization is incomplete (or at least needing better translation by a more fluent speaker)", however I doubt a project would reach the point where it needs Editnotice pages (certainly not in a level of bulk where renaming the namespaces would be a big deal) without already having high volume of editing and hopefully a critical mass of native/near-native speakers who have already straightened out all the L10n issues. But I could be wrong. Even so it would be easy enough to automatically rename directly from the database whenever namespace are changed.

I have asked Krimpet to comment here as she is the one who created this feature. — CharlotteWebb 19:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

(Could this be applied/adapted to the request at MediaWiki talk:Common.js#Disambig editintro? I would guess not, from the implementation explanation , but someone who knows this might be able to help me with that. :) -- Quiddity (talk) 18:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Guessing not would be correct. — CharlotteWebb 19:15, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Create protection failure

You Me At Six (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was created again, but the log shows that it was protected against creation on July 20, not to expire until Oct 20. What's up?Kww (talk) 15:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It was created at You me at six and moved by Deb (who is an admin). Algebraist 15:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah. Left a note with Deb pointing out her mistake.Kww (talk) 16:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Please advise on tl-something templates

From what I know, we've got {{tl|, {{tl2|, {{tlx|, {{tlnull| - when are we meant to use one, and when the other? Please help! It Is Me Here (talk) 16:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Usage notes are provided at Template:Tl. –xeno (talk) 16:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I understand, but I don't find the instructions there very clear, to be honest. For instance, what is the difference between {{tl2| and {{tlx|? It Is Me Here (talk) 17:53, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Tl2 is for linking to other langs/projects, Tlx is so that you can show some parameters. –xeno (talk) 18:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, and what about {{tnull|? I'm sure I saw it somewhere. It Is Me Here (talk) 07:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

From Template:tnull - Tnull is used to nullify templates in the monospaced font. It's used for stuff like {{helpme}} after you've helped the user, you nullify the template. –xeno (talk) 10:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I see - thanks! It Is Me Here (talk) 13:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Heading structure broken

Just a heads-up, as I've also been advised to take the following to MediaWiki. Per Misplaced Pages:Help desk#Heading structure broken:

The heading structure on every page appears to be broken. There is an H1 (the page title) immediately followed by an H3 ("" - which isn't even a heading, and should probably be marked up as a paragraph); and the page ends with a bunch of H5s ("Views", "Personal tools", "Navigation", "Search", "Interaction", "Toolbox") with no parent other than H1 (and the last headings in the article, which are not meant to apply to it).

Headings should follow a strict hierarchy, H1 > H2 > H3, and so on. WCAG says:

3.5 Use header elements to convey document structure and use them according to specification.
For example, in HTML, use H2 to indicate a subsection of H1. Do not use headers for font effects. ()

and:

Since some users skim through a document by navigating its headings, it is important to use them appropriately to convey document structure. Users should order heading elements properly. For example, in HTML, H2 elements should follow H1 elements, H3 elements should follow H2 elements, etc. Content developers should not "skip" levels (e.g., H1 directly to H3). Do not use headings to create font effects; use style sheets to change font styles for example. ()

See also Misplaced Pages talk:Accessibility#Headings in page template. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 17:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Template:Bug —Simetrical (talk •  contribs) 21:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you - you beat me to it, because I am still waiting for my bugzilla registration confirmation e-mail to arrive. It's very disappointing to see that the bug was raised on 12 September 2004, just short of 4 years ago, and yet a fix has not yet been implemented. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 21:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

You realize that there are 3087 unresolved bugs for MediaWiki and Wikimedia? What exactly makes you think that every problem is likely to get fixed within four years of being reported? This particular one doesn't cause any real problem that I've heard of, but fixing it would break all sorts of user scripts and custom styles. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 14:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It causes the real problem that you will have heard of, when you read the cited WCAG guidance, above. Where did I say that I thought that every problem would be resolved within four years? If your latter assertion is true, then the lesson is to be stricter in adhering to such guidelines in the first place. Andy Mabbett (aka Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy Mabbett; Andy Mabbett's contributions 00:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Registered in Misplaced Pages English, how to post article Misplaced Pages French

I am registered on the English Misplaced Pages site and have translated an article into French from an article I posted in English.

However, the French Misplaced Pages does not appear to recognise my username/login. Do I have to register again? IanS (talk) 18:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

See m:Help:Unified login. Corvus cornix_talk 18:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you IanS (talk) 18:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Page creation and deletion by namespace

Is there information available regarding one or more of the following?

1. The total number of pages in each namespace;
2. The number of pages created in a given time period (e.g. day, week, month), broken down by namespace; and
3. The number of pages deleted in a given time period, broken down by namespace.

Since it's apparently possible to give an exact count of the number of non-orphaned articles (see Special:Statistics), it should also be possible to do the same with other namespaces. However, despite all my searching, I've not been able to find this information anywhere. –Black Falcon 02:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

See m:Help:Magic_words#Statistics for the first (seems to be disabled). I'm not sure about the rest. - jc37 02:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You can get a pretty good idea of #2 via Special:NewPages for everything but articles. You'll have to set the feed high and then re-set it to get an exact count, but if you're just interested in the rate, dividing a given number of pages by the time period will give you that. It's no good for articles because there are so damn many of them and they get speedy deleted so quickly. I haven't done enough speedy deletion outside the article namespace to know how quickly that's done or what effect it would have.--chaser - t 06:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If there is a point to this question, you can ask somebody with a toolserver account to run a few database queries. — Werdna • talk 08:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Some Usercheck fields have stopped working

I made a template fairly recently, {{Usercheck-full}}, which combines the fields for users from all other Usercheck templates. However, some of its links have stopped working of late. Namely, the total link has stopped working, instead linking to a page which informs you that "query.php is dead" (this also means that {{User11}}, where I got the code for the link from, has also stopped functioning correctly), and the summary link now just links to a page that says "Object not found!" (this also affects {{User15}}). Please advise. It Is Me Here (talk) 09:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The templates need to be updated to use api.php. Query.php was shut down a few days ago. Franamax (talk) 00:24, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I made a copy of {{User11}} and changed it. Does this work?
Franamax (talk) 00:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Weird broken link.

Can someone explain what was wrong with this edit? I reverted it because it breaks the link on the "music" icon, but I can't figure out why. Thanks. APL (talk) 14:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The image has another original size so the coordinates only select the upper left corner which can be clicked. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Aha! That did it. Thanks. I didn't realize it worked like that. APL (talk) 16:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Looking for some listing tools

I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I figure the people here can point me in the right direction. Over at Misplaced Pages:Featured topics we've been having a hard time keeping in sync the articles listed on that page and the articled tagged as being in an FT using {{ArticleHistory}}. To keep these two in line with each other, I would like to find:

1. A way to see a list of all the articles in Category:Misplaced Pages featured topics all articles, its sub-categories, and sub-sub-categories in alphabetical order. This would let me see which articles are tagged with the ArticleHistory template.
2. A way to see a list of all the articles linked on Misplaced Pages:Featured topics in alphabetical order.

With these two lists I would be able to quickly find the disagreement between the two, which currently can take a very long time to track down. I have a feeling that someone has arleady devised tools to do each of these functions, so can someone please tell me where to find them? Thank you. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 18:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

English Misplaced Pages Internal Account Creation Interface

Hi guys! I'm trying to create an account on the English Misplaced Pages Internal Account Creation Interface. I entered in all of the information, clicked the second checkbox, skipped the signature box, and hit submit. I got something that looked like:

"Query failed: INSERT INTO acc_user (user_name, user_email, user_pass, user_level, user_onwikiname, user_secure, user_welcome, user_welcome_sig, user_welcome_template) VALUES ('NuclearWarfare', 'EMAIL WAS HERE BUT I REMOVED IT', 'HASH WAS HERE BUT I REMOVED IT', 'New', 'NuclearWarfare', '0', '0', , 'welcome-personal'); ERROR: Unknown column 'user_secure' in 'field list' "

Can anyone tell me what is wrong? I've read Misplaced Pages:Request an account/Guide over and I can't see what's wrong. Thanks for your help!

(I was told to cross post this over to here, forgive me if I put it in the wrong place) NuclearWarfare _{My work} 18:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...that's interesting. I'll have to ask SQLDb or OverlordQ about that, as they run the SQL tables. Xclamation point 00:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Give me a couple moments, and, I'll have it fixed up. SQL 03:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Should be fixed now. SQL 03:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit summary not working properly

When you change an edit summary to document changes to more than one section (as described at Misplaced Pages:Edit summary#Section editing), only the last section name enclosed in "/* */" will be properly parsed. See here and here. This used to work properly. I am using Firefox 3.0.1 with several javascript apps in my monobook.js (I don't think this would be the problem, but I don't know for sure). — OranL (talk) 20:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this is an output issue, not really a problem with using summaries in that manner: I archive the steward permissions page regularly, and I'm seeing edit summaries with that issue going back to July. The problem is, I recall them working correctly at the time. I suspect there's been a recent change to mediawiki that's causing the output to not display the way we're used to. Kylu (talk) 01:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that too, and I liked the old way: sometimes I feel like adding replies to several section with just one edit. Look at the history of Linker.php, this was probably rev:39373 by Brion that broke multiple /*section headers*/. By the way, another recent change is rev:39600 do-not-escape-entities, so if you put   in some old edit summary now it is displayed as space. —AlexSm 03:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Move copyright warning on the edit page

Please move the 'Content that violates any copyright will be deleted...' message above the edit pane. As it is now, the edit pane and summary field don't always fit in the browser window. I have to scroll every time I edit a page. SharkD (talk) 01:25, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Try putting

 body #editpage-copywarn,
 body #editpage-copywarn2,
 body #editpage-copywarn3,
   { 
   display: none !important;
   }

in your User:SharkD/monobook.css file. Also check out mine. Hardly any boilerplate shows up for me anymore. Saintrain (talk) 01:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Software project

I was wondering if anyone would be interested in starting a software project. Basically what it would do is query CatScan and output the results in table format. The results would have multiple columns depending on the categories an article belongs to. It would be used for members of Misplaced Pages Projects to organize work. SharkD (talk) 01:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Watchlisting rollbacks

On seeing this interesting question, I tried my (out-of-date) local wiki and it appears that when you use rollback, the article is not added to your watchlist. Can anyone shed light on whether there is a preference to enable this? Franamax (talk) 04:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

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