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"Israeli army said they shot the farmer" - removal request

It is hard to believe that IDF spokesperson would do such a thing. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Where is your source where Israel rescinds that comment? Cryptonio (talk) 00:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Get real. His has lawyers you know. I've googled and found 3 references:

• http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-01/18/content_10678349.htm
• http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/so-much-for-the-israeli-cease-fire/
• http://en.wikipedia.org/2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict

I do not think this is a reliable source. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 01:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Get working. Google Israel's rescue, explanation or flat-out denial they did such a thing. Cryptonio (talk) 01:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Please don't be rude. Actually it is better to see how this incident was reflected in other RS in order to achieve better encyclopedic value to this article. I did not see any IDF press release, maybe you? At best we could say Xinhuanet by unclear author reported that ... BTW Xinhuanet already published Hamas press releases before: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2003-03/04/content_755607.htm AgadaUrbanit (talk) 02:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

AgadaUrbanit, I don't know of any reason to doubt that Xinhua is generally a reliable source, but you raised an interesting issue. I did some checking, and couldn't find any other RS stating the incident as fact. I found several RS's stating the incident as an allegation by a Gazan speaking to Israeli human rights group B'Tselem. B'Tselem on its own is not a reliable source. It seems to me then that the alleged incident should best be described "So-and-so told Israeli human rights group B'Tselem that a Palestinian farmer was shot on January 18...". If other RS's can be found that refer to the incident as fact, we should also refer to it as fact. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The BBC simply say "Medics in Gaza said a Palestinian farmer was killed by gunfire." Sean.hoyland - talk 03:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

AlJazera reports: After the incident, Israeli forces opened fire, killing a Palestinian farmer, Palestinian medical workers said. MX44 (talk) 04:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This is why we have this pesky little thing called verifiability... :D--Cerejota (talk) 04:55, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Folks, thank you for checking. So no IDF press release? MX44, Thank you for the link. I think you cite another "farmer" incident, but apparently by the same source: Hamas employed MoH official Gaza emergency chief Mo'aweya Hassanein, he is medical worker alright. Cerejota (talk) thank you for providing verifiability. While, apparently, there is nothing surprising with "(Hamas) medical workers report farmer killed", on Jan 18 and this allegation was reported also by BBC and B'Tselem. From other hand "Israeli army said they shot the farmer" clearly presents red flag. IDF spokesperson would not state something that out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended. How BBC and B'Tselem managed to miss this apparently important press release? Exceptional claims require exceptional sources:

• surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources
• reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended;
• claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or which would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living persons. This is especially true when proponents consider that there is a conspiracy to silence them.

Exceptional claims in Misplaced Pages require high-quality sources; if such sources are not available, the material should not be included...

So what do you think? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 07:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

if there is no problem with one source reporting that a doctor said the casualties were 500-600 and we have that in the article, then why should this source be a problem? Untwirl (talk) 07:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

btw- cerejoGaza? i think you should apologize for that and try to remember to be civil. Untwirl (talk) 07:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

agad - you need to apologize and strike it, not just delete and pretend it didn't happen. Untwirl (talk) 07:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry this is copy-paste accident, thank you for noticing. I'm really sorry Cerejota (talk). This is honest mistake. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 07:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Untwirl (talk), it was not my intention. can we return to "Israeli army said they shot the farmer" quote? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 07:55, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

no prob - accidents happen. did you see my example? "if there is no problem with one source reporting that a doctor said the casualties were 500-600 and we have that in the article, then why should this source be a problem?"Untwirl (talk) 08:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This quote has a name of Italian known author, quoting "anonymous" Palestinian doctor. I fully agree with you there is to much of ""anonymous" reports in this article. If you want to remove it - go ahead. It is irrelevant to this discussion subject.

To the point, I'm not really sure that unnamed Xinhuanet author really quotes IDF response. There is no evidence about this claim of responsibility by IDF in war crime. This is highly unusual. You should consider process that IDF has for press releases in atmosphere of "bracing for slew of lawsuits". Everything IDF is saying is being filtered by Judge Advocate General. Why no other source confirms it, while reporting "medical sources" allegations? Do you see my point? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 08:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources that is all I have to sya about this - I mean, if it did happen, it will be trivial to find sourcing --Cerejota (talk) 08:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I see we on the same page, Cerejota. So if there is no other sourcing, please balance this "Ceasefire violations" quote and credit it clearly to Hamas sources. I personally would remove it completely, since "farmer" incident happened while Hamas initially "vowed to fight on". It's also acceptable to move "farmer" Jan 18 incident to Incidents section, where it rightfully belongs. What do you think? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 11:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Sean's source was also about the separate, later "farmer" incident. In our (Jan 18) incident, the guy who said he saw it was not a medic, but the brother of the person allegedly shot. Like I said, I haven't found any source other than Xinhua that speaks of it as fact, though a few sources attribute it to B'Tselem "as heard from the brother". Jalapenos do exist (talk) 11:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

So is there WP:consensus to remove first paragraph of Ceasefire violations section? Any other suggestions? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 12:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I am all for consensus, but we have this AFP (also mentions "8 year old girl"), I think there is an attribution issue. Sources clearly mention "medics" as the source of the information, and we should say so.--Cerejota (talk) 13:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Cerejota, I agree to what you say. Also according to IDF there were exchange of gun fire on Jan 18. "Medic" is wishy washy for "Gaza emergency chief Mo'aweya Hassanein". Is he mentioned accidentally in both Jan 18 and Jan 27 "farmer" allegation cases?

Anyway, use "medics" and add "8 year old girl" but let's move it to Incidents. Agreed? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 14:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Folks I need your opinion how to move forward. First paragraphs is out of context in Ceasefire violations since it happend while militants fired rockets and Israel launched retaliatory air strikes (AFP link). We did not find sources for Israeli army said they shot the farmer. Any suggestions? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 20:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

the source is: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-01/18/content_10678349.htm

it should not be removed - it should be attributed to xinhua. if edits reported by only one source are to be removed - then the unnamed doctor's estimate of casualties should be removed as well. i'm sure there are others ... i think this type of requirement will open pandora's box. Untwirl (talk) 20:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

what about "Hamas fired grad rockets from Media Office Building. "

the video shows a reporter saying she heard a loud noise and thinks that a rocket was fired from the building. how does her untrained opinion on a noise with no visual verification qualify as an exceptional source? Untwirl (talk) 20:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It shouldn't be removed. The atmosphere for reporters in this area and conflict, is not the best one to get ALL media outlets to report on everything that its happening. Taken this, then will Al Jazerra be disqualified as well, we knowing that is one of the few media outlet permitted inside of Gaza? BTW I was not rude, you were the first to say 'get real' - I simply took exception.

Say that, Israel has not denied the incident yet, or yet to provide their side of the story, then go ahead and specify that, but remove it because Israel has yet to acknowledge that did something? I apologize, but we are not under obligation to neither wait for an acknowledgment from Israel or remove reliable information that gives Israel an unwarranted black eye.

Say, fairness? Dubious remorse in my honest opinion... Cryptonio (talk) 22:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it was established that Israeli army said they shot the farmer never happened, this is not a fact. Calling Hamas reports of civilian casualties Ceasefire violations during the morning when Israeli officials announced a unilateral ceasefire but Hamas "vowed to fight on" and militants fired rockets is twisting a truth. Blackeagle said elsewhere There's a clear expectation of a quid pro quo "we'll stop shooting at you if you stop shooting at us" on both sides. Cryptonio, thank you for bringing up fairness into discussion. I hope you see my point. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 06:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

After this long discussion I performed following edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict&diff=267161730&oldid=267155196 AgadaUrbanit (talk) 09:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

i think you acted too soon. there are only you and possibly cerejota that agree with this removal. consensus could best be reached by attributing the statement to xinhua. using your own logic, israeli govt's censorship policy would never allow israeli media to report such a thing, therefore the only sources that could repeat such a statement would be foreign. this is not an opinion piece. unless youre suggesting that all material from and links to xinhua should be removed, then i dont see a problem with "according to" prefacing any contentious material that is reported by what we have considered a reliable source for this article. Untwirl (talk) 16:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The main point is that is was in the wrong section. I did not remove, I moved it to Unilateral ceasefires where it belongs from timeline point of view. It happened on Jan 18 AgadaUrbanit (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

There was no consensus on either of your edits. If you agree with what Blackeagle stated, then your objection to Ceasefire Violations is mute. More importantly you don't have the authority to discredit reliable sources. I would like to re-read where in this conversation it was 'proved' the incident never happened, or that the quote from the Israel military was a lie. In the incidents to follow, it clearly stated that the IDF did in fact shot at farmers etc(for whatever reason), how then is it far fetched to believe the accuracy of the article you are questioning when it clearly said that the IDF had shot a farmer?

if you ignore what was just asked of you, just simply explain where in this discussion was proved that the article you are questioned is a lie, or as you put it, it wasn't a fact. Cryptonio (talk) 18:16, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Your current line of thought does not merit an argument about what is actually in questioned before reverting your unilateral edit. I, was who reverted your edit. Cryptonio (talk) 18:45, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, This edit was discussed here for two days. Many agreed that Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. I assumed silence as WP:consensus, but was mistaken. Cryptonio, so you still say that "Israeli army said they shot the farmer" is a fact worth publishing? Could you explain you position? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I sure can Agada. "In the incidents to follow, it clearly stated that the IDF did in fact shot at farmers etc(for whatever reason), how then is it far fetched to believe the accuracy of the article you are questioning, when clearly said that the IDF had shot a farmer?

And also, "many agreed" sounds too complicated for me, perhaps because the discussion was so simple. You first objected on grounds that Xinhuanet is not a reliable source, the claim is fine, but what is not right is not to substantiate that exact claim.

You then argued that the statement made is not per IDF "standard", which is fine, except that you objected on grounds that the whole incident did not occoured. The burden is not on truth sake's but on credibility.

You are not looking for consensus, rather for the removal of this media reported bit.

If you are not working for consensus, how do you expect you'll get the section deleted? Cryptonio (talk) 00:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

No WP:consensus

It was clearly established that there is No WP:consensus on the subject. I argue that first paragraph of Ceasefire violations should be removed.

• The events are described in Unilateral ceasefires second paragraph, relevant quote: Gaza medical sources reported civilians killed.
• Israeli army said they shot the farmer is clearly a red flag according to verifiability. Exceptional claims in Misplaced Pages require high-quality sources; if such sources are not available, the material should not be included

I'm new here. Let me know if I understand it right. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 02:05, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The source you have presented, does not go into details about the incident that is currently presented in Ceasefire Violations. Notice then, that not much information is known about this incident as a whole. This same source "AFP", does not discredit 'at all' what is stated in the Xinhua article. Now, since your source does not provide much information about the incident, neither an Israeli response, why would you want to discredit, what appears to be the only other news article that apparently covered this story? You have my consensus, that you have found another source on this matter. But you continue to ignore the argument that is presented to you. i will add the "AFP" article as source to the first paragraph in Ceasefire Violations. Cryptonio (talk) 03:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem is not consensus, the problem is WP:V. I insist and concur with Agada, Exceptional claims in Misplaced Pages require high-quality sources; if such sources are not available, the material should not be included. I have yet to find verification that the IDF admitted the shooting. If we do, it stays, if we don't, it goes. We do find verifiability that the incident happened. So the incident stays. Simple. --Cerejota (talk) 19:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Cerejota, I think that events are described in Unilateral ceasefires second paragraph, relevant quote: Gaza medical sources reported civilians killed.. I'm uncomfortable with the fact that Misplaced Pages states as a fact that "Israeli army said they shot the farmer", quoting in my view in this particular case Hamas source - Gaza emergency chief Mo'aweya Hassanein. Though I have to agree that Xinhua generally is reliable source. Does it make any sense? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 19:38, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The argument was made about having information included in the article that only had ONE person as source and was in itself an Exceptional Claim( so high-quality sources needed is muted).

You want me to find 'verification' about something that is included in the article, that i DID NOT write? you are looking for MORE sources? how many sources will satisfied you? do we have to work towards your satisfaction in this matter?

Cerejota, you are entitled to disavowed Xinhua as a source. Don't get ahead of yourself. Cryptonio (talk) 02:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

"Though I have to agree that Xinhua generally is reliable source. Does it make any sense? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 19:38, 30 January 2009 (UTC)"

Just that in this matter they received a good chunk of cash from Hamas?

Cerejota, can you repeat again, what is that you concur with Agada on again? Agada just saw the light from the same tunnel you are about to travel through. Cryptonio (talk) 02:20, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

"Just that in this matter they received a good chunk of cash from Hamas?" So, Cryptonio, are you claiming that Hamas has enough cash to bribe the Chinese government? That the Chinese government would favor Hamas over it's second larges arms supplier? Blackeagle (talk) 02:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

You made me look this up. http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm

"The real danger comes in Israel's habit of reverse engineering U.S. technology and selling to nations hostile to U.S. interests. Israel's client list includes Cambodia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, the South Lebanon Army, India, China, Burma and Zambia. The U.S. has most recently warmed up to India and is now in fact competing with Israel for arms sales there, but the other Israeli customers remain dubious at best.

Perhaps the most troubling of all is the Israeli/Chinese arms relationship. Israel is China's second largest supplier of arms. Coincidentally, the newest addition to the Chinese air force, the F-10 multi-role fighter, is an almost identical version of the Lavi (Lion). The Lavi was a joint Israeli-American design based upon the F-16 for manufacture in Israel," Cryptonio (talk) 02:43, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's relevant, but it's funny how absurd conclusion (like murder justification) could be drawn from solid statistics. See: http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4728/1231958480954uo4.jpg AgadaUrbanit (talk) 08:25, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't find that image funny, I find it offensive (and the math is incorrect, too). May we please refrain from gender-based jokes? Thank you kindly. Tell someone (talk) 22:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

AgadaUrbanit I suggest you strike your "funny" bit of misogynism above. RomaC (talk) 01:28, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Folks, my wife and daughter approved this joke, but I'm sorry if you find it offensive. Being male I love woman in general, and thank God for their existence, assume good faith. BTW statistics in the picture look credible to me ( and my wife ), but I'd be glad to be corrected. To the point.

• I'm still waiting for confirmation that Israeli army said they shot the farmer, otherwise this "fact" should be removed.
• I insist to move January 18 morning "farmer" incident to Unilateral ceasefires second paragraph.

Cognitive relativism has its limits. Any suggestion? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 03:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

To this point, it could very well be, that the article has the appearance of standing on just one leg(as per some 'crafty' rationale) but is the actual position of the article, or its merits what should be debated? To that point, we here in Wiki select the latter, and to that point, whether 'cognitive relativism' is employed or not(as per some witchcraft) is not open for debate. Cryptonio (talk) 22:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps not surprisingly, I understand and agree with Agada's point. Israeli army said they shot the farmer would be Israel claiming they were responsible for a war crime. "Oh sure, we saw this farmer plowing his field and so we shot him. What's the big deal?" Israel might acknowledge that it shot a 27-year old man (or whatever -- just using example) who Palestinians claim was a farmer "just checking his field". So the point is, this statement is a redflag statement, like admitting to murder, out of character etc etc as Agada pointed out above. It requires "exceptional sources" ... one Chinese (if generally reliable) source does not qualify. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

War crime? who is judging Israel's actions? We are not discussing Israel's actions in this matter(even the supposed absent 'explanation' for their actions). What a reader believes warrants further action against Israel is not of ANY importance here. Furthermore, even the 'gravity' of the action itself is of no concern here. Notice that in here, http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ijkYFQac8SjkWN53E259A5P2Cr2w, which is the second source mentioned, it does not include other accounts of occurrences that is not related to the current conflict between Israel and Palestine. It does not, for example, mentions that an old man died of an heart attack peacefully. So, the article implies, by its nature, that Israel's actions had something to do with the farmer's death. The example that you give to Israel's side of the story is of no bearing on this matter either, for there hasn't been any Israel explanation on this matter, which is perhaps the reason why 'some' might object to this article, who's both sources, albeit being the only ones to be presented, are reliable sources. On Israel's admittance of murder, should we bring up examples where Israel in fact admits to murder?

A source that counters Israel's 'fathom' explanation of this matter has not yet been written. Cryptonio (talk) 04:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Using the argument that, "Since Israel has yet to deny or confirm this incident, or giving their version of this matter, the article CANNOT be true, or factual"... Cryptonio (talk) 04:42, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your response, Cryptonio. Please reread verifiability. In any case the problematic phrase get only 3 hits using google, so Misplaced Pages is in the good company, reporting this 'fact'. Could you explain your reasoning why January 18 morning events should not go to Unilateral ceasefires second paragraph, where events of that morning are described? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 05:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Cryptonio, your talk page is read-only. How did you do it and is it intentional? Thank you for clarification. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 06:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm being dim but I've never fully understood this dispute. It's not exceptional for the IDF to shoot people in the security buffer zones around the Gaza strip. It's covered by the military rules of engagement under which their soldiers operate there. I'm just saying it's not especially unusual. Anyway, that probably doesn't help much. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree Sean, enough is enough (talk to non-talk-able). I performed following edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict&diff=267995438&oldid=267995015 Hope it is balanced and neutral and better reflects reality.AgadaUrbanit (talk) 07:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Sean I need to stress IDF open-fire orders do not permit shooting unarmed farmers even in buffer zone. Another question is were there reports of IDF ground forces in Khan Yunis (translated park/stay for nigh here) area? AFAIK infantry and tank troops entered only to north of Gaza strip, but maybe I should be corrected. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 08:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The IDF have shot unarmed people in the buffer zone. For example . Maybe the soldiers were prosecuted for it.... Sean.hoyland - talk 11:26, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Sean you might find it surprising, but if law is broken people get prosecuted by law. And indeed there were precedents in the past. I hope you do not suggest that IDF open-fire orders do permit target unarmed people? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 13:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't be surprised at prosecutions when there are clear breachs of the law but the law is often applied weakly/loosely at borders when security comes before everything else for various pragmatic reasons. I would be extremely surprised if the IDF rules of engagement allowed the shooting of knowingly unarmed people mainly because the average soldier wouldn't obey such an order. However, the fact is that unarmed people are shot. That's what happens in these situations. It happens here too. If it was up to me there wouldn't be any borders anywhere, no visas, no passports. Problem solved....sort of. We can then all go and live somewhere nice like Laos, Oman or maybe all move to Oregon. It's quite roomy. Anyway, off topic... Sean.hoyland - talk 14:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

But Sean's comment is all about WP:OR while Agada's point is not. IDF rules of engagement do not permit shooting unarmed civilians, thus it would be highly unlikely ie "out of character" and "against an interest they had previously defended" (ie "we do not target civilians") and thus would fall under the "Exceptional claims require exceptional ("high quality") sources. (Note the plural) -- just stressing the point for the benefit of Cryptonio. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It does not follow that the rules of engagement saying something makes it highly unlikely that a soldier does the opposite. Somebody making a claim that is in opposition to what the IDF has said does not qualify as an exceptional claim. Nableezy (talk) 19:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I reverted your edit Agada, but also addressed your concerns:

"The first death after the ceasefire was a Palestinian farmer who was shot dead by an Israeli soldier while checking his farm in Khan Younis, on the morning of 18 January. The Israeli army said they shot the farmer because he was approaching land occupied at that moment by Israeli ground troops. There has not been an Israeli report addressing this matter in furtherance. "

Cryptonio (talk) 02:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

EDITor Evb-wiki has not been seen in this talk page or has addressed this subject matter. His edit for this reason can be taken as vandalism. Will revert. Cryptonio (talk) 05:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Cryptonio, thank you for addressing my concerns. There is still one left. Let's look on the Gaza strip map and Ground invasion section. According to reports Israeli tanks cut the strip along Karmi - Netzarim east-west road north of Deir Al-Balah. Israeli ground activity were reported in Gaza city and its suburbs to the north of this road. Though there were reports of air strikes in south Gaza strip and specifically in Khan Younis, I have not seen any reports of ground troops in the area. Should I be corrected? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 06:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I do this only per your request. If you strongly feel as this is a point that should be made, bring up more information and state your concerns for us to read. I do not do this to stop you from advancing your argument, simply because it seems to me as you live near that area etc. and will know more about it than me, in particular. I understand this is a logistic challenge.

Tuesday 6 January 2009 - "The sharp spike in the number of civilian casualties came as Israeli troops and tanks moved into Gaza's second largest city, Khan Younis, for the first time today supported by intensive artillery strikes as the military pledged to press on with its attack." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-palestinians

Sunday 18 January 2009 - "A Palestinian civilian was killed by Israeli forces near the Gazan town of Khan Younis after mortar bombs were fired from the area, medical workers said, identifying him as a civilian.

He was the first fatality on either side of the frontier since Israel halted its 22-day-old Gaza offensive at 2am, saying it had achieved all its objectives but that a troop withdrawal was contingent on Hamas ceasing its fire." http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0118/breaking2.htm Cryptonio (talk) 14:29, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for research. I stand corrected. However, currently the same Khan Younis incident currently reflected twice, both in last sentence of second paragraph Unilateral ceasefires and first paragraph Ceasefire violations. Israeli Army admission quoting Gaza medic is clearly a red flag according to verifiability, thus should not be included. From logic and relevancy point of view the incident should belong to Unilateral ceasefires. After all it's the place where January 18 morning events are described. Anyway daily clashes, and the fact that in accordance with Hudna tradition Hamas cease-fire was week long it looks that we should rethink article organization. In my opinion it looks like Continued negotiation all along. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 07:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

As per your request, the incident is now mentioned at the end of the second paragraph in Unilateral Ceasefire. The red flag you raised comes from the article which you said was from a reliable source and was included by you to the second paragraph of Unilateral Ceasefire. Pardon for taking so long in agreeing with you that this is where the article belongs, although I am not totally convinced though and reserve the right to challenge your position and argue for its inclusion at the beginning of Ceasefire Violations at any time hereafter. Cryptonio (talk) 09:42, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Cryptonio, it looks that we mostly agree. I respect your right to challenge my position and really appreciate your understanding. After all this is not personal, we both want to deliver encyclopedic value. The way to compromise passes through initial disagreement and careful evaluation of each others arguments. Please respond to argument supported by other editors that Israeli Army admission quoting Gaza medic is clearly a red flag according to verifiability, thus should not be included. The bottom line is that even reliable sources have unreliable information from time to time so that's why we have verifiability AgadaUrbanit (talk) 19:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

That the Israeli army shot a farmer, is not all that exceptional in a war. That the army's defense was that the farmer was getting closer to a controlled perimeter, is not exceptional. There is nothing exceptional about this claim, just because Israel denies everything that in the eyes of some(and most disappointing, in their own eyes as well) is questionable, it does not mean it must be taken out because someway is not verifiable. There is nothing exceptional about this claim, in time of war. It was shown that the Israeli army itself has in the past admitted to have committed acts that in their own eyes was illegal(although i'm not concerned about the legal aspect of this case). So if, there is precedence, the burden of truth is made less heavier. And have you heard, Israelis are human beings! Cryptonio (talk) 20:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus. There are various arguments below, but the strength of the arguments appears about equal on each side. I will note that there was some support for Gaza war as an alternative, but it did not receive enough input to achieve consensus; nor does there appear to be any consensus likely on a new name in the near future. It still appears that not enough time has passed for there to be a clear WP:COMMONNAME for this event. The first move request was made while the event was still occurring, or had just finished, if I remember correctly. It has still only been a few weeks since it ended. In my opinion, editors would do better to wait at least a few months before worrying about the name of the article again. Concentrate on ferreting out all the reliable sources for the event and adding the information to the article; once the article has been stable for a few months, it will probably be clear to most editors what the most appropriate neutral title would be. --Aervanath (talk) 07:52, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict → Israel–Gaza war — There has been a lot of discussion around this, and there seems to be a growing consensus towards this formulation, from RS and wikipedians. Its time for another poll. This will require admin close as article is move protected. — Cerejota (talk) 07:13, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.

• Support - just in case it was not clear. :D --Cerejota (talk) 07:16, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• I've already said a few times that I'm okay with a "war" title. I pointed out a while ago that it comes up more than just about anything else in news searches. And it does seem to be the most common name in both Israeli and Arabic news sources. I guess we can't be sure that it will endure in the long run but that's a long way off in the distance either way. So for now I'm more than happy to support the name change. --JGGardiner (talk) 10:11, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support - a much clearer and more sensible title than the current one. It will be an improvement at least.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 14:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support - In addition to thousands of reliable sources which have used the term "gaza war", google search also has more results for "gaza war" than "gaza conflict". Some of those reliable sources are:

• Parsing Gains of Gaza War، The New York Times
• Ceasefire may not end Gaza war, BBC News
• Demands grow for Gaza war crimes investigation, Guardian
• Gaza: War, from a distance, The INDEPENDENT
• How the Gaza War Could End: Three Scenarios, Time (partners with CNN)
• Gideon Levy / Gaza war ended in utter failure for Israel , HAARETZ
• War on Gaza, Aljazeera
• UNICEF: Children bearing brunt of Gaza war, CNN

--Wayiran (talk) 16:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

We've got a comparison of how many results the different terms return in the RM preparation section, above. Blackeagle (talk) 16:43, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. Many news sources also use "war in Gaza", but this is not as good as "Gaza war" or "Israel-Gaza war". 199.125.109.124 (talk) 18:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support - However, due to a recently diagnosed TS related medical condition whereby I apparently have an unconcious tendency to promote antisemitic conspiracy theories such as that the US provides financial aid to Israel and Egypt I am ineligible to vote. Consequently I would like to propose that anyone who has either been the accusor or the accused in some "that's antisemitism" impoliteness in WP recently be excluded from this vote. That should speed things up enormously. I would also like to propose that anyone who wants to use the word antisemitism on this page from now on must first make a $250 donation to the ICRC. This should help to counter the tumbling market price for the use of the word and stop it being handed out like Jelly Babies. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support Israel-Gaza War - btw sean- did you know that if you think lenny kravitz music is terrible you are racist and antisemitic, but if you liked his old stuff but you think his newer stuff sucks you are a new racist and a new antisemite? Untwirl (talk) 19:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• Indifferent- I do however disagree with the "antisemitism" remarks... but feel that SH should be able to allowed to vote no matter how pukey one finds his smug remarks. V. Joe (talk) 19:34, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Have a Jelly Baby to settle your stomach V. Joe. They worked for me after reading some of your more controversial comments here. There was a serious point buried in my smug, pukey remarks so I welcome your support in any drive to ensure that the word antisemitism is given it's due weight in discussions here and I hope I can count on you to challenge anyone who uses it inappropriately, disrespectfully or devalues it in any way by making dim-witted accusations against any editors here. I think this is probably one issue that we can agree on. By the way, pukey is $100 to the ICRC. Forgot to mention that. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose for now - This conflict is part of something bigger that has been going on for over 50 years now and no side has declared war on the other as of yet.Knowledgekid8716:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support - Though as I remarked below, I don't know that we need the 'Israel' part. Blackeagle (talk) 21:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - Pure original research. Those links represent nothing more than the pov of the reporters. Israel deployed a force in a scale of a division wich is barely a maneuverable force. The best description for the fighting is a military operation. Lack of military background doesn't justify this change, no offense. 87.69.41.159 (talk) 23:55, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support (loosely) It may not be a "war" but this is how much of the media throughout the world title and/or refer to it.Cptnono (talk) 00:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. Although this term is second-best, "Gaza war" is better. Israel is a recognized country and Gaza is not, so the current proposal's juxtaposition of the terms is awkward. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I have no opposition to "Gaza war" - but I took what I understood as an emerging consensus. Is anyone opposed to "Gaza war" who supported "Israel-Gaza war"?--Cerejota (talk) 06:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. Since Israeli officials don't call it a war. Flayer (talk) 08:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support. Current title is good for me but the suggested is little better, more concise. Brunte (talk) 11:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current title (1) includes a date specification, since this isn't the first Gaza-Israel conflict and probably won't be the last (2) uses "conflict" instead of war because war denotes a more complete military engagement - in this case only one side has a military to speak of, so using "war" would seem to give an inaccurate impression. I'm not against finding a better title, but Israel-Gaza war isn't it. Avruch 17:47, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - There is an official definition of a war; it's not just a term that can be thrown around freely. Israel never declared war on Hamas, because Hamas is not a state, rather a terrorist organization. Therefore, this was neither officially nor technically a war. Furthermore, to title this the Israel-GAZA War is absolutely ridiculous. If this change goes through, it will only be further demonstrating to the public just how biased wikipedia truly is. Israel's military operation was not against Gaza; it was against Hamas. If you were hellbent on including war in the title, which I still maintain is incorrect, you should at least have enough neutrality and objectivity in you to concede that it should be "Israel-Hamas War". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.136.92.148 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose, as per Avruch. Israel's Gaza war' is closer, but tendentious. But I think we should patiently await to see how specialist journals on international relations, conflict and the Middle East decide how it is best called. There's nothing wrong with a provisory title, in lieu of RS consensus which will take time to come on line. Nishidani (talk) 20:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose: "Israel-Gaza war" gets a few dozen true google news hits (I looked through them te separate the wheat from the chaff). As was established above, Gaza war and Gaza conflict are in the low thousands. I doubt that "Gaza conflict" will be used in the news for long without the addition of modifiers, since it can be confused with other things once the searing memory of this round-of-fighting wears off, but the more powerful "Gaza war", without modifiers, may well remain the moniker of choice, and so so I think we should be eyeing that name. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 21:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support AgadaUrbanit (talk) 04:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose: This was a massacre, not a war. War requires an army: What army does Gaza Strip maintain? Where are the Gazan tanks? Would we call the Warsaw Ghetto uprising a "war"? I have come to prefer the Israeli name: "Operation Cast Lead". It's Israel's baby, so Israel gets to christen it. NonZionist (talk) 16:42, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose--Fipplet (talk) 16:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

This is not a vote.--Cerejota (talk) 04:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - lacks the date in the title. Also, it's questionable whether Gaza, which isn't a recognised political entity, can be a participant in a war; that proposed title implies something much less one-sided than what actually happened. Terraxos (talk) 23:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
• Support The term 'conflict" seems to imply that this is just a disagreement between two parties. The article already uses terms related to warfare as truce, attack, broad offensive, air raids, ground invasion, target is bombed, third stage of the operation, etc. --J.Mundo (talk) 15:21, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
• OK, I've sort of changed my position. I now oppose Gaza war compared to something like 'Israeli asssault on Gaza', but I still support it over the status quo (conflict).Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 17:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose I would oppose merging for now, the conflict warrents its own article, but a limited merger may be warranted upon the undisputed conclusion of the conflict. --Pstanton (talk) 00:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
• "Israel–Gaza war" alone is ambiguous: there have been x number of scraps between Israel and Gaza. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose There may be several more and it will help to differentiate. 128.30.5.108 (talk) 17:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose Does not qualify as more than a few skirmishes or a battle. It may very well be a significant event of such a war, but there should then be two articles. So far, doesn't look like there is a consensus to move the name. Dovid (talk) 21:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Dates not needed, as there is no disambig.--Cerejota (talk) 07:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• Do we need the 'Israel' qualifier, or could we just go with Gaza war? I don't think there are any other Gaza wars we need to distinguish it from. Blackeagle (talk) 13:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we do, as otherwise there could be confusion with the internal struggle in Gaza last yearJandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 14:36, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I think 'war' would be stretching it as a description for Fatah–Hamas conflict, but if people were confused we could always put a disambiguation link at the top of the article. Blackeagle (talk) 14:59, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I think "Gaza war" is descriptive enough. Lets try for consensus this one time...--Cerejota (talk) 19:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• War was never delared on either side so how can it be called a war? The news may call it one, but doesnt it have to be a fact for wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/Declaration_of_war http://en.wikipedia.org/Ongoing_warsKnowledgekid8716:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

verifiability, not truth. If the consensus of the sources is "war", even if it is a ridiculous media invention with no basis on reality, we should give it weight.--Cerejota (talk) 21:41, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that horse is already out of the barn. The Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, Iraq War, and 2006 Lebanon War were all undeclared, yet they are all have wikipedia articles with 'war' in the title. For that matter, I don't find any reference to a declaration of war in the Six Day War or Yom Kippur War articles. Blackeagle (talk) 21:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I lean towards Gaza War per the discussion from Blackeagle and BrewcrewCptnono (talk) 04:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

From the military point of view, the "Israel-Hamas War" seems to be more correct. --Wayiran (talk) 14:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

No, can't be, because about 5 groups are listed as Beligerents on the 'Gaza' side, including Fatah and some other groups.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 14:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I would ignore comments from editors not actively involved in discussions and editing, and ideological arguments, such as that from the recent anon account. We should base our naming on editorial decisions from RS, most oppose here do this, but partisan, WP:BATTLE/WP:SOAPBOX arguments are discouraged, and generally invalid. Can we discuss this without climbing in our soapboxes?--Cerejota (talk) 19:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• After thinking this over, I think 2008-2009 Gaza war would be the best title, by analogy with 2008 South Ossetia war. There's no need to actually mention Israel in the title, if the date is used; there's only one war that took place in Gaza at that time. Israel-Gaza war is somewhat more ambiguous, and (I think) falsely implies a certain equality between the belligerents, which wasn't really the case. Terraxos (talk) 23:29, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree wholeheartedly. There is a precedent for this in the 2008 South Ossetia War. 2008-2009 Gaza war seems to be the best choiceAndrew's Concience (talk) 01:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Well what's the decision

Well according to the tag at the top of the talk page, the proposed title is Israel-Gaza War. I have no objections to that title. I guess we give it a day or so to see if anyone has any further discussion or objection and then we make the move. Andrew's Concience (talk) 22:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, judging from the discussion, there is no rough consensus. However, there seems to be a move for one alternative (actually two) "Gaza war" with or without date. We should give this a few days, and then close it. If it is move, then we move, if not, then I propose we re-open with a two way on "Gaza war" with or without date.

BTW, this discussion should be closed by an uninvolved admin if the result is move, as it is move protected.--Cerejota (talk) 05:11, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, judging from most of the comments in the core survey responses (not discussion), there probably isn't consensus around Gaza War either, though I personally have no objection. Some might say there is ambig. v. the Fatah/Gaza internecine "war."Dovid (talk) 19:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Does the Fatah/Hamas intercine war have a page?124.189.241.23 (talk) 22:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Israeli ambassador: Gaza attack prelude to attack on Iran

The Israeli ambassador to Australia spoke candidly when he thought the cameras were off:

"(He said) the country's recent military offensives were a preintroduction to the challenge Israel expects from a nuclear-equipped Iran within a year," Cummings said. During the meeting, held in a relaxed breakfast setting, Mr Rotem spoke about the war in Gaza, which has killed more than 1300 Palestinians. Cummings said Mr Rotem made the point that "Israel's efforts in Gaza were to bring about understanding that we are ready to engage in a decisive way."
-- Angus Hohenboken (2009-01-31). "Iran will soon pose N-threat, says Israel". The Australian. Retrieved 2009-01-31.

I've been making the point that we should not divorce the attack on Gaza from the larger context provided by the series of recent Israeli attacks (Gaza in early 2008, Syria in 2007, Lebanon in 2006, Iraq in 2003). All of these wars follow the 1996 "Clean Break" plan, developed by Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and others for Benyamin Netanyahu. If we are going to change the name of the article, we should call it the "Israel - Middle East War", or go along with the neo-cons and call it "World War IV". We impose POV when we exclude crucial context, just as we would impose POV if we were to treat Germany's 1939 attack on Poland as an "Isolated Response" to "Polish Terror".

"Clean Break" calls for:

• "reestablishing the principle of preemption, rather than retaliation",
• a "new strategic agenda can shape the regional environment in ways that grant Israel the room to refocus its energies",
• "seiz the strategic initiative ... engaging Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran".

-- Richard Perle (1996). "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm". The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies. Retrieved 2009-01-12. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) I do not believe that suppressing this information is justified! NonZionist (talk) 13:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I have to say, I'm against nuclear weapons in general, but if Israel can possess them, why doesn't Iran have the right to do so. I don't trust Israel any more than Iran. After all, which of them is constantly attacking other countries/territories?Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 14:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Off topic but Iran signed the NPT treaty so they have no right to nuclear weapons. They can pull out of the treaty. Israel has not signed the treaty. You can read all about it here as there are quite a few people working on these issues in Wiki. Sean.hoyland - talk 14:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

And they are both Parliamentary Theocracies, as is Gaza currently. Religious nuts with nukes, what fun! That said, Sean is correct, under international law, Israel's nukes are legal, but Iran's aren't. Period.--Cerejota (talk) 18:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Interestingly though Arabic public opinion favours Iran having nukes. See the bit I added in Iran_and_wmd#Opinion_in_the_Arab_and_Islamic_world last year based on the annual University of Maryland survey. Not great news for NP efforts. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course Arabic public opinion favours an Iranian Nuclear weapons program. Iran is the biggest player in the Arab world. Death to the west and all that buissiness. The Saudi's are BFF's with the states and with Israel swinging it's arms around a bit. A nuclear Iran would have the political presence to make itself into the region's superpower. A superpower that is run by Arabs for Arabs, it's like their biggest christmas wish. But enough about all this OR and unrelated talk. On with the article at hand I say Andrew's Concience (talk) 22:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Iran isn't an Arab country. They don't speak Arabic, nor are they ethnic Arabs. Arabs are a minority group within Iran. Blackeagle (talk) 23:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Middle Eastern then, my mistake. my points still apply. Perhaps musslim would have been better but I didn't want to offend them (They get so cranky j/k :/) Andrew's Concience (talk) 01:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

There's a wide range of views towards Iran in the Arab World. Officially, Saudi-Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen and others are averse to it, while Syria and Qatar, e.g., side with it. Among the Arab population, there's a degree of sympathy for Iran and the assertive stance of Mr Ahmadinejad, but not everywhere (e.g. not in Sunni areas of Iraq or Lebanon). Much of it is about the Shi'a / Sunni divide in the Arab world, which Iran is trying to foster. The emerging connection between Hamas and Iran, e. g., is far from obvious, because Hamas is originally affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, which considers Shi'ites apostates. Some of al-Qa'ida's leaders have even argued that fighting Shi'ites is more of a priority than fighting the West. This is all commonplace Middle East history slash politics. I'm a trifle concerned that users who are not aware of such basics are among the contributors to an article like this one.--84.190.24.105 (talk) 07:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: "I'm a trifle concerned that users who are not aware of such basics are among the contributors to an article like this one". I have to say that I do share your concern but the way I look at is that people learn things here that they won't get from their mainstream media. Also, if they want to add things to the article they need to go and find a reliable source, read it, process it a bit before they edit WP or else they'll get reverted. I think it's better for people to be here than sitting in front of their TV screens watching dumbed down nonsense e.g. editors had the opportunity to read your 'it's more complicated than you think' remark above and let's be honest, pretty much everything is more complicated than pretty much everyone thinks. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Human shields in Gaza

"Gaza victims describe human shield use" By JPOST.COM STAFF "Members of a Gaza family whose farm was turned into a "fortress" by Hamas fighters have reported that they were helpless to stop Hamas from using them as human shields." Relevant?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tundrabuggy (talk • contribs) 02:59, 1 February 2009

Extremely relevant as part of "Palestinian military activity", but it is quite an extraordinary claim, so it should be subjected to verifiability via more sources.--Cerejota (talk) 03:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

For example, I would like to know if they are related to Yasser Abd Rabbo. --Cerejota (talk) 03:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Not much of an "extraordinary claim", these types of allegations are as old as the I-P conflict itself. The Jerusalem Post is a reliable source and WP:V has no requirement for a multitude of reliable sources. There's enough sentences with silly string citations. Moreover, the JPost says that this information comes from the Al-Hayat al-Jadida. So it looks like all POV's are satisfied (unless there's some card-carrying Hamas supporters here). If we want to be extremely cautious we can always go....."According the Jerusalem Post, the Al-Hayat al-Jadida has reported that..........."--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that makes sense... but is still extraordinary in the sense that it can be controversial: as I said, is definitely relevant.--Cerejota (talk) 08:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

if its added, it should be followed by this from amnesty international reporting idf taking over civilians home' and vandalizing w/ graffiti and excrement. http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-soldiers-leave-gaza-homes-devastated-condition-20090123

"In most cases, the families had fled or were expelled by the soldiers. In some cases, however, the soldiers prevented the families from leaving, using them as "human shields". Untwirl (talk) 06:47, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a great idea, once we get a reliable source for that, of course. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh puhleeze, the credibility of AI trumps that of JPOST. BTW the evidence of Israelis using Palestinians as human shields (and literally) is overwhelming. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 17:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually it does not. Amnesty International is not even a news source, it doesn't even meet the WP:RS threshold. The Jerusalem Post is considered a valid reliable source.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

AI is a RS, on the same grounds that HRW is a RS as demonstrated here. Al-Jazeera is also a RS as is the JPost. Nableezy (talk) 01:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

here are some more

do you like haaretz? http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060390.html "On Monday, on one of the walls of the house that became the IDF position from which soldiers shot the two brothers who died at their father's side, we found two inscriptions in Hebrew: "The Jewish people lives" and "Kahane was right," referring to right-wing extremist Rabbi Meir Kahane."

or http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059513.html "Report: IDF probing racist graffiti left by soldiers in Gaza"

the independent? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/my-terror-as-a-human-shield-the-story-of-majdi-abed-rabbo-1520420.html "My terror as a human shield: The story of Majdi Abed Rabbo"

brisbane times? http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/opinion/writing-is-on-the-wall-for-gaza-peace/2009/01/30/1232818724423.html

the australian? http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24987294-2703,00.html

ynet? http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3664281,00.html "Givati troops leave 'Death to Arabs' graffiti in Gaza" Untwirl (talk) 17:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Untwirl: You see to have gone off topic. The issue here is whether Hamas has been using humans as shields, not whether some 18-year old troops have messed up some house that was ruined anyway from Hamas fire. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

this is the problem. as an american (i'll divulge that) when us troops are accused of atrocities in iraq or guatanamo my knee jerk reaction isn't to deny it. i call for an investigation, and hope the soldiers and commanders responsible are punished. from your side of the pond, you are so biased that you call shitting in peoples cooking pots and holding them hostage "messing up some house that was ruined anyway from Hamas fire." yes report on the hamas using them if it is verified by more rs. yes report on idf actions that have been reported on in multiple rs. spend some time finding rs like i have and then advocate for their inclusion Untwirl (talk) 01:19, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Untwirl: Your comments are a bit unclear. If your English is not up too par, you might want to contribute to the Misplaced Pages of your native language. Regarding the substantive issue, all of the links concern vandalism, not human shields. The one article that did mention the use of a human shield is from the notoriously anti-Israel The Independent and is solely based on the statements of the "shield" himself and has yet to be independently verified. I rest my case.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:21, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

sorry, let me slow it down for you since you seem to be missing my point.

1. you say neither amnesty international nor the independent are reliable due to their "notoriously anti-Israel stance."

2. you advocate for the inclusion of jerusalem post, seemingly asserting that they don't have a pro-israel slant or an "anti-hamas" slant.

3. your bias is crystal clear, hence my observation above of your brushing off war crimes as "some 18-year old troops have messed up some house that was ruined anyway from Hamas fire."

do you need further explanation? maybe you should translate it into your native tongue so you can understand it better. Untwirl (talk) 03:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Just to join Untwirl in his diversion for a moment, ie the one regarding some IDF troops messing up someone's Gazan house, I urge you to read this fascinating Letter to Gaza Citizen: I am the Soldier who slept in your HomeTundrabuggy (talk) 02:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

oh how cute, blame the victim:

"I swear to you, that if the citizens of Gaza were busy paving roads, building schools, opening factories and cultural institutions instead of dwelling in self-pity, arms smuggling and nurturing a hatred to your Israeli neighbors, your homes would not be in ruins right now. "

btw - please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes. Untwirl (talk) 04:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

oh yeah, wrong gender, tundrabuggy Untwirl (talk) 04:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

amnesty international nor the awarding winning independent with their vastly experienced journalist donald macintyre are reliable sources ? that's funny. i'm getting flashbacks to the whole bbc arabic is unreliable because it uses squiggly writing unpleasantness. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Your characterisation is very cute but self-serving and false. No one made such a claim except perhaps you just now. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

tundra -your friend brewcrewer said exactly that

Brewcrewer said that bbc arabic is "unreliable because it uses squiggly writing unpleasantness"? I'm willing to bet more than the money in my pocket that you can't provide that diff! Tundrabuggy (talk) 20:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

TUNDRA MADE A JOKE??!?!?!?!?!?!?111///1!!!!//???!--Cerejota (talk) 05:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Call me an optimist, I'm willing to bet money that TB is a nice person too. Okay TB, you win. I can't supply that diff. Unfortunately no one has used that argument yet. It's come close though but the editor doesn't seem to be around anymore....which is a great loss because he could understand arabic, english and hebrew. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

"That's a great idea, once we get a reliable source for that, of course" (linked to criticism of amnesty)

and "The one article that did mention the use of a human shield is from the notoriously anti-Israel The Independent

care to retract your statement? Untwirl (talk) 03:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I would like to hereby retract my unfounded claim that AI and The Independant are unreliable sources. Wow, this is confusing because I could have sworn that I didn't...never mind. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

literalists. Untwirl (talk) 07:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

UN School

UN Admits: IDF Didn't Hit School - by Maayana Miskin . Now clearly confirmation from a less "biased" source would be necessary. The article refers to the Toronto Globe and Mail. This is of course relevant, since Ging, made a point of saying that he had given Israel the coordinates, thus implying that Israel was responsible for war crimes for deliberately bombing a school. Yes, here is the original article: Account of Israeli attack doesn't hold up to scrutiny Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

this is not repeated in any rs. Untwirl (talk) 17:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Unsurprising, since it's a new story. Globe and Mail is highly reliable; no reason not to put the info in the article. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:55, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Does israel come clear from blame anyhow? The bombs killed civilians outside and wounding civilians inside a school? How does you suggest we change the article after this new fact Tundrabuggy? Brunte (talk) 18:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like the information that the attack landed outside the school was already added to the article yesterday, in this edit Blackeagle (talk) 18:20, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Good. Much noice for nothing then. What is your intention with this Thundrabuggy? Brunte (talk) 18:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec) tb - your statement "This is of course relevant, since Ging, made a point of saying that he had given Israel the coordinates, thus implying that Israel was responsible for war crimes for deliberately bombing a school. " is implying that somehow israel would be released from culpability? would that also explain the un headquarters? Untwirl (talk) 18:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You don't need to deliberately target anyone for something to be considered a war crime. You can still fall foul of the principle of proportionality e.g. fire at a couple of guys, oops, kill tonnes of people. Anyway, never mind. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

ok, first of all, this " Israel faced mounting international pressure for a ceasefire after incorrect preliminary reports indicated that the school itself was hit,and announced a three-hour "humanitarian truce" is completely OR, one report cited mentions that the 'lull', 'pause', whatever was came "amid growing international concerns about civilian casualties from Israel's military operations in Gaza and a day after Israeli forces fired on several U.N. schools in Gaza." i'm taking it out. as well as "the school itself - OR again.

the so called breaking newsstory from globeandmail has not been reported by other rs, hence "exceptional claims blah blah blah Untwirl (talk) 18:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

from the article "On January 6, 2009, Israel struck outside a UNRWA run school sheltering 400 Palestinians, killing 43 civilians. "

i think we have enough rs for this fact that we dont need to use globe and mail Untwirl (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Why would we want to take a citation to an RS out? What would you propose to cite for that sentence instead? Blackeagle (talk) 19:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

how bout this http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-obama Untwirl (talk) 19:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't really seem like a substitute. The whole point of the Globe and Mail article is that initial reports, like the Guardian article you linked to, were incorrect about where the mortar rounds landed. Blackeagle (talk) 19:28, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

how did the children in the school grounds get injured? no one specified exactly where the mortar rounds landed. this is a straw man argument Untwirl (talk) 19:33, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

They were injured by shrapnel, "While a few people were injured from shrapnel landing inside the white-and-blue-walled UNRWA compound, no one in the compound was killed." The article includes quotes from multiple individuals, both eyewitnesses and the UNRWA operations director, that the rounds landed in the street. I don't see how this meets the definition of a Straw man argument. Blackeagle (talk) 19:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent."

"the shell didn't actually hit the school building, like you said it did"
"therefore all that hubbub from the world about firing at the school was unjustified"

the fact remains that israel admitted that they fired at the school because they thought 'militants' were firing from there, which they later admitted was untrue. Untwirl (talk) 20:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I think you're the one making the straw man argument here. I've never said anything to the effect of, "therefore all that hubbub from the world about firing at the school was unjustified". The fact that an Israeli government spokesman says something does not automatically make it true. Blackeagle (talk) 21:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

actually i was referring to the author of this section's original reasoning, "This is of course relevant, since Ging, made a point of saying that he had given Israel the coordinates, thus implying that Israel was responsible for war crimes for deliberately bombing a school." as well as your "initial reports, like the Guardian article you linked to, were incorrect about where the mortar rounds landed" my point is where the rounds landed is irrelevant, and every other reliable source which doesn't print this 'story' obviously agrees. idf fired at the school. they admit it. period. Untwirl (talk) 21:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article, the facts are always relevant. If the rounds didn't hit the school, then we should say they didn't hit the school. "Every other reliable source", including the IDF statement, were all based on the initial, incorrect reports. Blackeagle (talk) 21:29, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

so do you want to say "fired on a school but hit just outside, killing 43 civilians"? what is your point? they fired at the school. people were hit by shrapnel inside the school grounds. is the shrapnel not part of the mortar, intended to hit a target?

and every 'fact' isnt relevant, thats why we discuss inclusion here Untwirl (talk) 22:02, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that not every fact is relevant, but everything in the article should be factually true, to the best that we can determine. As far as what to put in the article, I'd say something like: "On January 6, 2009, Israel mortar shells landed outside a UNRWA run school sheltering 400 Palestinians, killing 43 civilians." Blackeagle (talk) 22:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

i would agree with ""On January 6, 2009, Israel tanks fired on a UNRWA run school sheltering 400 Palestinians, killing 43 civilians." the shells didn't just "land there", the school was intentionally fired on. and the source needs to be one of the dozens of more reliable ones we have Untwirl (talk) 22:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's clear that it was tanks that did the firing. Israeli tanks do carry mortars (they're about the only country in the world that mounts mortars on their MBTs) but they have other mortars in the service too. I think we ought to stick with "mortars" rather than "tanks".

The other problem is one of intention. Israel has said both that they targeted the school itself and that they targeted an area next to the school. I think we should either include both statements, say that Israel issued contradictory statements as to whether or not they targeted the school, or just stay away from intent and simply say that the shells hit close to the school and killed a lot of people. Blackeagle (talk) 03:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

From the Globe article:

• The UN's Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs got the location right, for a short while. Its daily bulletin cited "early reports" that "three artillery shells landed outside the UNRWA Jabalia Prep. C Girls School ..." However, its more comprehensive weekly report, published three days later, stated that "Israeli shelling directly hit two UNRWA schools ..." including the one at issue.

The good ol' U.N. Ever consistent. Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• • Oh, but you seem to have missed this:

• • In other words, the UN didn't report anything. When I say fog of war, this is the kind of crap I mean. If we all got out of the WP:SOAPBOX for a few seconds we might see these things--Cerejota (talk) 04:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Kind of crap indeed, "They even came out with a video that purported to show gunmen in the schoolyard... But we had seen it before" You could clearly see that IDF spokesperson released the discussed video before this incident happened and marked 29 Oct. 2007. see http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI Still Mr. Ging blames the Israelis for the confusion. Go figure it. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 06:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

What are you trying to say? Brunte (talk) 07:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

That there is a lot of confusion, due to disinformation. Thank you for asking, Brunte. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 07:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Like this you mean ? WikiEN-l Conflict of Interest and lobbyists for foreign governments :) Sean.hoyland - talk 08:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Whatever Sean, now I'm Shin Bet agent :) Usually you're very balanced and neutral and in my eyes you earned a lot of credit with your suggestions. Let's not get into personal attacks. Agree? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 13:18, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of personal attacks or rudeness so we should be okay. It was just a joke (with of course a serious side). Personally I'm more concerned at them calling people like us 'intellectuals'. It doesn't give me a good feeling about their grasp of reality. :) Sean.hoyland - talk 13:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

This statement ""On January 6, 2009, the IDF fired on a UNRWA run school sheltering 400 Palestinians, killing 43 civilians." is factually accurate. the debate over where the rounds landed is not relevant and the article (UN Admits: IDF Didn't Hit School)is misleading (ie. the un admitted nothing different from what they had said all along). Untwirl (talk) 20:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The statement isn't accurate. The rounds didn't actually hit the school, the article should reflect that. The IDF has issued contradictory statements about whether or not they targeted the school. If you want to say something about whether the IDF intended to hit the school, we have to either acknowledge the conflicting statements. Blackeagle (talk) 20:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The statement is accurate. If they fire close enough to wound 43 people they must have landed the thing on the doorstep. The fact that it wasn't a direct hit doesn't mean that the school wasn't "Fired upon". Any army is obliged to fire their weapons in a manner that does not cause indiscriminate damage, this is the reason WP rounds are contraversial. There can be no doubt that the injuries in the shcool DID occur, and that Israeli mortar fire was the cause. Andrew's Concience (talk) 23:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

exactly. the shrapnel (or whatever) that hit and injured people on the school grounds is part of the shell, regardless where the shell lands exactly. therefore, the school was fired upon, and hit, by mortar fire. Untwirl (talk) 00:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

At the time of this "incident", it was not clear what happened. Israel's rules of engagement are that they return fire when they see where it comes from. They also may have specific military "targets" but that's another story. When the story first broke that they had hit a school, they assumed they had returned fire-for-fire, since those are the operating rules. When UNRWA and Palestinians claimed "No one was firing from this school" "It was a refuge for civilians" "We gave Israel the coordinates" and "We don't fire from schools," Israel released an earlier film demonstrating that gunmen indeed have and do fire from UNRWA schools. They did not pretend that this film was this incident. They were demonstrating that Hamas gunmen fire from schools. However, when it was finally acknowledged by some (not the UN!) that there was not a direct hit on the school, some people still want to give the impression that there was. It is most likely that there was fire from the area, and Israel responded. Indeed had the locals actually been in the compound, they would not have been hurt, since no one in the school was hurt. There is a huge difference between targeting a school (while aware of its coordinates) for no reason, and returning fire when fired at and avoiding the school. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:15, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

And they're all good points Tundrabuggy. I never said that Israel targeted the School, nor did I say they hit it. However there is no excuse for blind firing in the vecinity if an internationally protected target, there's no excuse for poor accuracy in civilian populated areas and there's no doubt that people were killed or injured by Israeli mortar fire at the UN school. Israel has an internationally recognized, proffesionally trained army. Simply saying a mistake was made is not good enough. Andrew's Concience (talk) 03:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• Even schools are not internationally protected targets if there is hostile firing coming from it Article 51, paragraph 7, of Protocol I:

The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.

In war, stuff happens. Hamas never made any attempt for accuracy, nor to avoid civilians, in its attacks against Israel. Are they excused because they don't have an "internationally recognized, professionally trained army"? What's with the double standard? Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

ok, lets be specific, like the guardian. note that israeli fired on the school, hitting just outside, and "most of those killed were in the school playground and in the street" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-obama Untwirl (talk) 15:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

and your point about "returning fire when fired at and avoiding the school" is wrong, by israel's own admission and by the fact that people were killed on the playground. Untwirl (talk) 15:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Untwirl, perhaps you can find a more recent source that says "playground" since that source is now acknowledged to be wrong. Where did Israel say that they did not avoid the school? Could you please ref the admission? Thanks Tundrabuggy (talk) 20:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The fact remains that Israel killed 40 totally innocent people. If they didn't score a direct hit on the school, put that in, but it doesn't reduce the severity of the incident.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 20:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes 40 people were presumably killed in this incident for which we do not know the exact details. Point is, as usual, everyone rushes in (especially the UN) to accuse Israel before the facts are known. By the time the truth is uncovered, no one believes it. This doesn't just happen sometimes, it happens alot. As for the innocence of these individuals, someone must have been firing from the area, or it would not have drawn fire. 12.51.52.206 (talk) 04:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

see circular argument Sean.hoyland - talk 05:08, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Casualties in the Lead

Currently, the lead paragraph on casualties reads "However, as of February 1 2009, the number of Palestinians killed, and the proportion of Palestinians killed who were civilians, remains a matter of contention. According to figures compiled by the Israeli military, between 1,100 and 1,200 were killed, over 700 were militants and 250 were civilians. According to the Gazan Ministry of Health, about 1,300 Palestinians were killed, 900 were civilians, including 410 children, and the remainder were police officers and militants."

I think this is inaccurate and does not accurately reflect the secondary sources that we have access to. Most mainstream news organizations report the Palestinian Ministry of Health Figure without qualification. For example:

BBC: "More than 1,300 Palestinians killed"

Washington Post: "after a conflict that left 1,300 Palestinians and 13 Israelis dead"

Mail and Guardian(South Africa) "killed nearly 1200 Palestinians

UN " 758 people in Gaza (On Jan 9) .. according to Palestinian reports cited as credible by UN officials."

AlJazeera: "1,300 people, at least 410 of which were children"

Reuters: "Israel's Gaza offensive ... killed more than 1,300 Palestinians. Gazan rights groups said 700 civilians died, many of them children."

Economist: "About 1,000 Palestinians have been killed, among them more than 400 women and children, in nearly three weeks of fighting." (On January 15)

It is true that the Israeli military has questioned these figures, but the Israeli figures have not been widely taken up by neutral reliable sources. Of course, we should include the fact that the IDF has questioned these figures, but the IDF figure cannot go ahead of the other figure and I think the phrasing should make it clear that an overwhelming majority of sources accept the other figure. In light of this, to present these figures as a matter of serious dispute misrepresents the sources. I propose something to the effect of: "About 1,300 Palestinians have been killed, according to figures compiled by the Palestinian Ministry of Health . The Israeli military has questioned the number of civilian deaths ." Jacob2718 (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

i agree that "Most mainstream news organizations report the Palestinian Ministry of Health Figure without qualification," however i dont believe israel's 'estimate' is relevant at all. we wouldnt quote hamas for how many israelis died. Untwirl (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The IDF has spies, no doubt, and informants. It cannot, itself, do what people in the field and hospitals, are doing, direct crosschecking of dataq in hospitals with the families. Since in the war, the IDF shot 'everything that moved' (words of a northern commander), as in Vietnam, statistics are systematically tilted to 'identify' whoever is shot as a enemy, i.e., here a Hamas operative. Like all armies and governments in war, it's never been particularly reliable, in any case.

Apparently there is intensive work being done to control and crosscheck the figures given by the Palestinian authorities, now underway. Some of the difficulties are well explained by Donald Macintyre in The Independent Sunday, 1 February 2009]

'a count of the dead and the wounded is possible. And it has been and is being done. There is a difference of 85 dead between the figures that have been published by the Palestinian Ministry of Health and those that have been arrived at by the two leading human rights centers in the Gaza Strip - Mezan and the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. This gap, however, is not a result of an intentional inflation of the number of dead and wounded, but rather the result of a number of errors that occurred because of the heavy load: For example, in the aerial bombardment on Saturday, December 27, of the civilian police buildings in Gaza City, seven students of the nearby UNRWA vocational school were killed. All of them - inhabitants of Rafah. It is possible that they were listed twice - once as people from Rafah who were killed and once as people killed in Gaza City. There were people who were taken to Shifa Hospital who when they died were transferred to hospitals in the places where they had lived. It has happened that by mistake a number of names were listed twice. Sometimes there is an error in the name, which is later corrected. Sometimes neither a corpse nor remains have been located. In this way, the body of H., an Iz al-Din al-Qassam member, was lost. Only his shoes, which were found, confirmed that he had been killed. Four members of the Haddad family, parents and two children, got into a car and fled the army that was approaching the Tel al Hawwa neighborhood. A shell incinerated the car. The neighbors were able to identify the four scorched corpses only by the license number of the car, and they reported this to an investigator from the Palestinian Center. Nor is anyone able to intentionally lessen the number of Palestinian fighters who were killed. Every family is proud to say that its son fought and was killed in battle, so that sometimes the error could be the other way around: that someone is called a fighter because a certain organization adopted him, but in fact he was killed in his home and did not even know how to fire a rifle. Investigators who are very familiar with the field have their own ways of knowing who was an armed fighter and who was not. When on January 14 there was a report of four corpses in Shokka, east of Rafah, the field worker from the Palestinian Center knew the name of one of the dead and knew that he was from Iz al-Din al-Qassam. He concluded that two of the others, who were his age, were also in the military organization. However, the fourth man was 42 years old when he was killed, which is not so congruent with the profile of a "fighter," and inquiries to his family confirmed that indeed he had no connection to the armed group.

In the two human rights organizations the confirmation of the names of those killed, their identity, their age and their sex is carried out in a number of ways: In real time, each of the organizations had field workers present at the hospitals. They saw the bodies and spoke with family members. Other investigators did everything in their power - in conditions of mortal danger and running between the bombardments - to get to the place where people were killed and wounded. If not there - then to the home of the family or the wake house. If this was not possible during the course of events - it is being done now. Each investigator has a detailed questionnaire that he goes over with all the affected families and in which all the details are recorded. The work of getting everything down in writing will take at least a month and a half or two months. Then in all likelihood the slight gaps in the figures of the two human rights centers will be corrected.

The data, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, as of January 22, are as follows: 1,285 dead, of whom 1,062 were non-combatants (895 civilians and 167 civilian police). Of these, 281 were children (21.8 percent) and 111 were women. There are 4,336 wounded, among them 1,133 children. The 6-year-old girl who we saw in the Zeytun neighborhood, who holds her hands up in the air in fear every time the photographer brings his camera near her, is not included in the list of the casualties.'Nishidani (talk) 20:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Right, of course Israel killed some 99% non-combatants according to PCHR. What happened to the 410 children that were killed earlier? That's a discrepancy of 130 children. Did they count ALL the children twice? How old are children? Is a 16 & 17 year old considered a child? Now since Israel only killed some 200- odd "combatants" why weren't the so-called civilian police or others able to stop these "combatants" from firing into Israel and causing retaliatory fire? It was not as if they had got no warning as to what to expect. In fact, today's news includes Olmert saying that they will have a "disproportionate" response to the current rocket fire . It would make sense if the civilians who appear to outnumber the militants considerably, were to take matters into their own hands for their own safety. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Well, that is why a number of us have argued for not putting the casualties in the lead at all, but we were over-ruled. Tundrabuggy (talk) 20:36, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you go back to primary school and work out the percentages. 1,062 non-combatants of 1,285 makes 223 combatants, which as a percentage of 1,285 comes out, at a glance at around 16-17%, meaning by their calculations 83-84% were civilians/non-combatants, not 99%, as your queer calculation asserts. If you read front-line Israeli reports from the IDF there was actually very little contact with Hamas. Most were killed on the first day, then went underground. Their strategy was survival. All sides exaggerate, spin and tilt figures in war. The Palestinians at least had this excuse, they had to make their calculations with several thousands people in a few weeks registered at several hospitals, and conflicting data from several sources, while under siege. The IDF calculations were done in comfortable quarters, mostly by counting all dead as around 75% 'Hamas operatives', the figure they pushed from the beginning. We'll know in a month or so, and will then update.Nishidani (talk) 21:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

so warning of a "diproportionate response" (against civilians, i presume) somehow justifies it? hamas warned israel that rockets wouldn't stop until they lifted the blockade, which they didnt, thereby according to your reasoning "causing retaliatory fire" by hamas rockets. Untwirl (talk) 20:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

There are some weird concepts of mathematics operant here. The lead now has

About 1,300 Palestinians were killed including 900 civilians and 410 children (with the remainder being police officers and militants) according to figures compiled by the Palestinian Ministry of Health. The Israeli military claims that 1,100 and 1,200 Palestinians comprising 700 militants and 250 civilians were killed.

Both figures are nonsensical ('and' as in 900 civvies and 400 children should be '900 civilians, of whom 400 children' (that figure should itself be adjusted down), otherwise you get 900+400 = 1,300, no place for militants. Likewise the IDF is made to claim that of 1,100 killed, 700 were militants and 250 civilians, meaning 150 were neither militants or civilians. What were they, zombies?

Does anyone actually control this farce (farcir 'to stuff', an appropriate French verb). It is a farcical stuff up. I note also in para 1 an unfixed ref., standing out like dogs' balls.Nishidani (talk) 21:37, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Most reliable sources do indeed qualify the amount of causalities. It would be kinda irresponsible on their part not to. See Battle of Jenin, where Palestinian claims of massacre were later found to be nonsense and the IDF numbers were correct.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:41, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

brewcrew, where are your links for this statement? jacob provided 6 or 7 to back up his assertion. once again you are jumping in with your opinion that isnt based on rs. if you want to make contributions to this discussion, do some homework. Untwirl (talk) 01:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Untwirl: Please stay WP:CIVIL, if you want to contribute to this talkpage. The links he provided are the exception. We all know that the amounts of dead people are almost always qualified to the source. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

be civil? your suggestion that i contribute to a wiki of my native tongue was condescending and uncivil. i simply asked you to provide some sources for your opinions, which you have yet to do. what "we all know" is irrelevant - provide a source. Untwirl (talk) 03:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

i see you dont mind being slapped with a trout. well, here goes - *whap* Untwirl (talk) 03:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You have a native tongue ? You should probably give that back. Tongues and such like sometimes have local cultural/religious significance. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

my native tongue is cruelty free and certified organic. mmm delicious. Untwirl (talk) 05:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Brewcrewer: Please stay WP:CIVIL, if you want to contribute to this talkpage. Bullying doesn't last long around here, call it the revenge of the nerds if you will. --Cerejota (talk) 04:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The figures need to be attributed, especially if they are disputed. We have numerous sources attributing the claims, the opener found some who don't (yet they might do in other articles, e.g. reuters attributes those figures to Hamas here). There is no "mainstream" consensus of secondary sources to not attribute their figures, as the opener suggests, and even if there was, we would not be supposed to follow.

Also, there is no "mainstream" consensus of secondary sources to not cite the Israeli figures, as the opener suggests, and even if there was, we would not be supposed to follow. The Israeli figures were just recently released, and all that was released was a kind of a "preview" that is yet to be completed. It is thus no surprise that they are not yet cited by everyone. We need secondary sources to wp:verify information, but we need to present these informations following wikipolicies such as wp:npov. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

On checking the problem is that the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs on its website does not give official figures. No official figures apparently exist for the IDF statistics. The IMFA only cites for this information the same newspaper articles our own article cites, and frankly this is pure lunacy. That a government cite newspapers for statistics that it itself is the source for. The IDF figures in the newspapers are revelations made off-the-record, or privately, to journalists by briefers. This is complete contrast to the Palestinian case, where there is an official source for the figures (may be wrong, but at least they assume responsibility for their calculations)

Secondly, the IDF does not 'claim' these are correct figures. The IMFA site says that the IDF 'believe' that 700 are Hamas operatives. To claim is to assert a fact, to 'believe' is to take on trust, in lieu of definitive evidence, that such and such is the case. Therefore the wiki description should have the word 'belief' for the IDF figures until their report comes out.

As to the discrepancy I pointed out between 950 (militants and civilians) and 1,100-1,200 total, the remaining 150/250 are believed by the IDF to be mainly Hamas militants also. So so far, only in as regards the IDSF/Israel figures we are in the realm of belief. The PMH figures are asserted on the web-site to have been based on extensive crosschecking, and are generally supported by an independent authority (the in loco UN people)Nishidani (talk) 18:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

skapp - there does seem to be a mainstream consensus not to cite israeli figures. (see jacobs examples above) the (one) example you linked to does attribute their numbers to "medical sources" in gaza, but it also makes no mention of (unofficial) israeli estimates. 7:1 mainstream sources that dont attribute their numbers, and 8:0 that don't mention israeli estimates, seems to be in consensus on not adding the israeli estimate or qualifying the number with moh or hamas. Untwirl (talk) 19:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I continue to oppose inclusion of casualties figures in the lead, - it shoudl say something vague like "causualties happened" - and push for their inclusion in the infobox. As to quantities, all of these discussions would be solved if we provided an upper and lower range, and then a few sources. Keep the narrative for the Casualties section. --Cerejota (talk) 06:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you still of the opinion that Israel's figures shouldn't be use AT ALL?(i think you at least brought up that point). because that was BOLD and I'll add my opinion as well. There could be strong support for such measure. Cryptonio (talk) 15:23, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You clearly misunderstood my point. My point was not using IDF figures solely, fog of war and all that (in other words, the IDF is doing estimates, while the MoH is counting hospital reports; which is more reliable - in the non-wikipedia sense?). We need sourced min-max ranges, see the example I created above, which could include IDF figures. I also oppose the explicit qualification of any information, because we have a established way to reference and cite information and should therefore use it.--Cerejota (talk) 17:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if this leaves much room for misinterpretation but: "As it stands, its ugly. But I would like to hear arguments as to why the IDF figures are to be considered reliable, vis-a-vis health organizations on the ground in Gaza." Cerejota.

Anyways, thanks for clarifying your point. I wonder how you would then, minimize the coverage of Israel's figures in that section. Cryptonio (talk) 20:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

As I said, I would like to hear arguments "as to why the IDF figures are to be considered reliable, vis-a-vis health organizations on the ground in Gaza". I haven't heard them. But, this is approaching the threshold of the stuff I am not giving a fuck about. This aberration of ugliness will have to be fixed in two years when when the books get written. I still however retain hope we can reach an informative and inclusive range that is well sourced, such as the format I suggested.--Cerejota (talk) 01:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Weapons related word counts in the article for interest

2 aircraft
3 airstrikes
3 army
5 artillery
5 bomb
3 bombed
1 bombings
3 bombs
5 booby
1 explode
1 exploding
4 explosives
2 gun
1 gunships
2 helicopter
2 helicopters
3 katyusha
3 launchers
3 missiles
19 mortar
5 mortars
6 phosphorus
6 qassam
47 rocket
34 rockets
2 rockets'
4 shelled
5 shelling
13 shells
6 tank
2 tanks
Sean.hoyland - talk 09:28, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Call me vulgar and immature, but I found the line "5 booby" to be kind of funny. Now if only the Hamas messages to Israelis' mobile phones had said "booby on all cities, shelters will not protect you", instead of "rockets...", we'd be able to crank up the booby count a bit. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 15:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

As per request: you are vulgar an immature. :D--Cerejota (talk) 06:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Me too and I deliberately didn't go and check whether it was accompanied by 'trap' because that would have ruined the Woody Allen-esque Sleeper (film) images I had in my mind. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

how bout, "boobies will not save you!" "booby is not your friend" "or "death to boobies!" Untwirl (talk) 20:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

What, no mention in the article of UAVs, the drones, with their special missiles, and surveillance cameras that allow controllers at headquarters to view with great clarity everything on the ground, with such precision that indeed, they consistently killed children and civilians, even in open fields, as Amnesty reports. Bet there were high 5s all round the video feed at HQ when catching this 'breaking news' beamed back from the drones.Nishidani (talk) 21:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I deliberately didn't offer an interpretation of these figures because I wanted others to do that but since no one has, here goes....bearing in mind that this is just a semi-deterministic method to assess NPOV/it's just bit of fun...sort of.

• not mentioning UAVs etc seems consistent with the whole not mentioning anything much apart from rockets approach that seems to be apparent from the figures.
• rockets and related terms are mentioned too much, did I mention that ? aren't mentioned enough.
• we need to mention more about rockets to increase the popularity of the article because apparently they're quite popular ::::with editors and therefore readers in order to increase advertising revenue. sorry, i've forgotten, what are we trying to do here ? Sean.hoyland - talk 09:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a predictable result of the fact that one side in the conflict has lots of different types of weapons, and the other side has pretty much one type of weapon: rockets. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 16:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I was going to say the same thing. Asymmetric warfare is asymmetric. However, if you sum what is Israeli vs Hamas weaponry, Israel comes up slightly bellow, clearly not how this has played out. I think we mention rockets too much, too often, compared to say, shelling in Gaza. But this has some potential to be a storm in a teacup... we should fix the article without an eye to terms. --Cerejota (talk) 17:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with both of you to a certain extent and since stopping rockets was the stated aim you might reasonably expect related words to have elevated word counts. This does look a bit more like a spike than an gentle hillock which perhaps should trigger a warning light...maybe just an orange alert...although changing the colour of the light bulb is a lot of effort. Since the article (and any article) is meant to avoid accidentally and implicitly advancing a POV through the language used (e.g. terrorist) we should be able to use simple techniques like this every so often to get a rough idea of what's going on in the article. For example, if it were an article about crime in Thailand and the words 'Burmese' and 'migrant' appeared 100+ times it would be reasonable to assume that something a bit odd was going on. Anyway, it wasn't meant to trigger a storm. Quite the opposite actually. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Poll: Section Title: 'Gazan response' or 'Palestinian militant activity'

Please say which title you think is better, since otherwise this is just going to back and forward between Jalapeno and me.

• 'Gazan response'

Support since it naturally follows 'Israeli offensive' and also because 'Palestinian militant activity' does not sound neutral, it makes it sound suspicious and illegal(maybe it is, but then 'Israeli offensive' should be changed to something like 'Israeli attacking troop activities' (OK a bad one but I can't think of better)Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Better After some rereading I think that 'Palestinian militant activity' sounds more negative than 'Israeli offensive' and is therby not npov. Brunte (talk) 01:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• 'Palestinian militant activity'

• Discussion

I think neiter. If 'Israeli offensive' stands, the other should be something with 'defence' in it. ex 'Palestinian defence' or 'Palestinian defence of Gaza' Brunte (talk) 18:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't any of these options are all that great. "Gazan response" is pretty generic. It doesn't really say who is responding and doesn't convey that most of the response was military in nature. "Palestinian militant activity" is only slightly better. It says a little bit more about who but is just as generic as to what. "Palestinian defense" doesn't really fit because many of the activities (rocket attacks) are defensive only in the sense of "the best defense is a good offense". On that basis the Israeli actions could be considered "defensive". Anyone have any other suggestions? Blackeagle (talk) 18:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The more I think about it, I really have to conclude that we probably shouldn't have two separate sections for Israeli and Palestinian actions. These are really two sides of the same coin. Does it really make sense to talk about the Israeli Ground invasion in one section, then Palestinian Engagement with Israeli forces further down on the page?

So, how about reorganizing the Campaign section like this:

• Israeli airstrikes - the current Air strikes and Warnings subsections
• Palestinian rocket attacks - the current Rocket attacks into Israel subsection
• Ground invasion - the current Ground invasion, Attack on Gaza City, Preperation, and Engagement with Israeli forces subsections
• Attacks on Israel from outside of Gaza - the current subsection of the same name
• Notable incidents - the current incidents subsection
• Ceasefires - the current Humanitarian ceasefires and Unilateral Ceasfires subsections

Propoganda and psycological warfare would get folded into the media section or article. The very first paragraph under Palestinian militant activity describing the militant groups involved and the Internal violence subsection get spun off into their own section describing who's involved on the Palestinian side.

It's a pretty big change, but I think it would make the article a lot better and get away from the current "he did, she did" format Blackeagle (talk) 18:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree 100% with Blackeagle's suggestion as the only only policy compliant framework so far. He has had the gonadal fortitude to bring the obvious cluster-fuck the section is. We should be able to provide an NPOV narrative in the encyclopedic voice without segregating obviously related topics by combatant. Of course, as I said, I can live with well sourced, verifiable aberrations as long as we do not cross the line into SYNTH. I just think we should reconsider how we have arrived to these "solutions". Consensus is hard, sweaty, and time-consuming. Which doesn't mean that we are immune from the fact must reach it. --Cerejota (talk) 02:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Israeli 'shock' victims may have crept back in

Do people remember the previous discussions about this? The Israeli govt includes 'shock victims' in their casualty figures. In the infobox it now says 182 civilians injured. I would guess this includes shock victims once again. As noted before, there are probably over 1 million victims of shock in Gaza.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 20:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's hard to determine the exact number of "shocked" victims because mass media tends to be more selective when it comes to Israeli news, but perhaps we shock can technically be categorized in the injured section. Also, depending on one's proximity from an explosion, "shock" could imply physical damage. Lest you forget, shock can cause internal and psychological injuries. But I doubt 182 victims injured also includes those who were "shocked." Under your reasoning, the victims would exceed 50,000. Sderot and Ashkelon have been experiencing daily rocket attacks for over a year...Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Shock can be a physical condition. An adrenaline rush can widen your vains causing a sharp drop in blood pressure. This is where the term "Scared stiff" comes from, with the person being physically unable to move. I'm not sure it's enough on it's own to threaten someones life though. Obviously if you have a large open wound and go into shock you can bleed out, but I'm pretty sure on it's own it won't leave any lasting damage. At the most a lie down, perhaps some hydration and the victim should be fine in a day or two. Certainly would require some medical attention though just in case. So I guess it could count. It's not on par with bullet & shrapnel wounds though. (Forgot to sign in)Andrew's Concience (talk) 22:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

In addition to Acute Stress Reaction, which is the kind of shock I mentioned above, also see Circulatory Shock. Circulatory Shock comes in multiple different forms, several of whitch can in fact cause death by organ failiure if not medically treated, therefore it seem there can be no question that these numbers belong in the casualties sectionAndrew's Concience (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I have been against counting them together. Although I would note that we also count Palestinian psychological victims. I included a link to this a while ago but the head of the PCHR counting said that they had counted about a thousand fewer wounded than the MoH and he attributed it to the MoH counting psychological trauma. --JGGardiner (talk) 23:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I dont think they should be counted together either. But there are also sources from Palestinian medial officials saying they believe more than 50% of all Gaza residents will suffer from PTSD and other psychological trauma. Nableezy (talk) 00:23, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been arguing for weeks that we should include information about psychological trauma. But not to combine it with other injuries in the infobox to create a combined "wounded" number. Back then nobody agreed with me that we should include any sort of psychological trauma at all. Although back then we mostly just had the Israeli "shock" figure. If we get Palestinian information I wouldn't be surprised if a few editors become more interested. Even though I did include an article with Palestinian information like two weeks ago. But I don't know if anyone read it. --JGGardiner (talk) 00:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about PTSD or people who are having nightmares because they saw some nasty things. I'm talking about the people who suffer from the medical definition of shock. As in they hear a bomb go off and their bodily reaction can put their lives at risk. If it is the latter it should be mentioned in the casualties. If they require medical attention as a direct result of the conflict then they are casualties. If they are having nighmares or PTSD they should be left out of casualties, as this reaction is purely psycological. In summary I think that if immediate medical prevention is required to save their lives then it counts. If it needs counselling or therapy it doesn't count. This is not an attempt to make light of psycological trauma, merely my suggestion of how this issue can be resolved Andrew's Concience (talk) 01:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

OMG. People, this would all be solved if we had ranges with sourcing. I will repeat this as mantra. There is absolutly no need to have long edit warring and talk threads on casulaties if we follow this simple formulation. There is a fog of war and all an any attempts at casualty figures by any side have to be treated as part of their respective PR efforts. However, they are published as primary sources and repeated by RS, and obviously central, so we must include this.

Say aye and lets get over with, so we can edit war on better things, like lovefests and rockets. Yeesh, at least the Babycue debate had some serious systemic implecations. These here is close to being lame.--Cerejota (talk) 04:19, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

vandal ip

could someone report it? http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=268117343 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Untwirl (talk • contribs) 22:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC) '

You can do it yourself.WP:AIV. He was handled fine, not blocked, but warned and has not edited again. If s/he edits again in the same fashion, s/he will be blocked. --Cerejota (talk) 05:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

"anti-semitic incidents"

jalps - 2 of us now have agreed and removed material that is duplicated word for word in the international reactions section. it should be summarized and that is all. don't say "see talk" when you have not posted anything discussing this to the talk page. i will wait to revert you until others weigh in. Untwirl (talk) 00:23, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You and I seem to get into talk page edit conflicts: I was posting my comments here but lost the edit conflict to your comment, so I'll just respond to it. Jandrews twice removed two whole subsections of the article, "Israel" and "Antisemitic incidents", without discussion. After the first time he did it, I explained above that this is not done: when removing large portions of sourced text, one must seek consensus first on the talk page. The fact that you agree with Jandrews is of absolutely no relevance, though your input in a discussion in which you explain why you agree with him would certainly be relevant and perhaps influential in determining the outcome of the discussion. You have just begun such a discussion, contributing the sole argument that the content of one of the subsections in question ("Antisemitic incidents") is duplicated word for word in another article. If that is the case, I can assure you that the other article copied from here and not the other way around. If you think there was some problem with them doing that, I suggest you take it up on that article's talk page. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

This article starts to be bloated with proisraeli material with less connection to the conflict. This section is one of them. I find 'antisemitic incidents around the world conected to this conflict' complicated. Do muslims see diference between jews and israelis? Is Muslims attacks against jews, who most of them support israel antisemitic? In any case israel dont make it easyer to be of jewish heritage. Brunte (talk) 01:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Brunte, but I don't understand what you're saying. Could you perhaps be clearer? Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

What part dont you understand? Brunte (talk) 01:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Everything past the first two sentences. (Though I'm not sure I understand even those two sentences: how is information about antisemitic incidents "pro-Israeli"?) Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

If anything, this article is pro-Palestinian. Virtually all Palestinian-news media, especially government casualty reports, fail every wiki reliability laws. Yet, oddly enough, we still use them as references. So let's end this pro-Israel b.s because we all know it's the direct opposite. The international media has been biased against Israel from the start of the war. And since this article is heavily reliant on international sources, the article is undoubtedly slanted. Now, can we move away from the pro-Israel tirade and focus on the article? Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Do we have a section of anti-musslim attacks in the article? Seems like having the section at all is unnecesary. If you look at the disussion above I said merely a mention that the attacks occur should suffice. It seems impractical that we list the anti-jewish incidents when this article is about the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict. It just seems to me that this is a tangent issue and while it may be a direct result of the happenings of this article, it does not need more than a brief mention Andrew's Concience (talk) 01:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I support that. Brunte (talk) 01:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

A. If you have information about notable attacks against Muslims which, according to reliable sources, were directly related to this conflict (as you agreed the antisemitic attacks being discussed were), then by all means add it to the article: WP:BOLD. B. The subsection does not list "the anti-jewish incidents"; it briefly mentions a few of the most notable incidents, without even going into basic details. C. The subsection is a part of the section "Effects", which, as its name implies, does not deal with events of the conflict, but with "direct results of the happenings" (your words). Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:41, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Equal weight is important. If we're publishing content demonstrating the results of the war but not necessarily part of the actual fighting, then all sides must be posted. IF there's reputable sources that report on the growing anti-Semitic/anti-Israel protests occurring throughout Europe and the Middle East, then it MUST be included. Under your reasoning, everything that wasn't physically influenced shouldn't be included - like international reactions, organizational opinions, etc. After all, "it just seems to me that this is a tangent issue and while it may be a direct result of the happenings of this article, it does not need more than a brief mention." Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I have reservations about an exclusive "antisemitism' section, maybe an inclusive "backlash" subsection to International reactions section would be germane. But how do we judge whether a physical assault on a Jew in Paris is directly related to this event? Or if the decision to ban Arab parties from the upcoming Israeli elections is directly related to the event? Seems we would be opening an ugly can of worms here. But go ahead, if the section includes info relating to both sides. RomaC (talk) 01:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Like I said, I think that notable backlash attacks against any group, considered by reliable sources to be directly related to this conflict, should be in the subsection, and the title of the subsection should reflect the content. I don't think that the subsection should be in the International reactions section, since that section deals with views and public expressions thereof, whereas this subsection deals primarily with tangible actions, and is thus more suited to a section dealing with concrete effects. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I owe you an apology Jalapenos. I was under the impression that the section had been changed to a list of anti-simetic happenings. I read over the section again. And while it's longer than I would have made it, I don't think that it's unbalanced or unworthy of note. The fact that I thought it had been moved from the section that it's in sparked my remarks about having an anti-musslim section. When the section is viewed as a whole and not in individual sections it is not unreasonable. Further Anti-Simetic of Anti-Jewish is more appropriate than "Backlash". It is what it is and what it is, is anti-simetic violence and discrimination as a result of this conflict (Don't know if that all bade sense) Andrew's Concience (talk) 02:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you needed to apologize for anything, but I appreciate that you did. Thanks. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 03:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

if you insist on overcrowding this article with 'effects', i suggest adding this:

• anti-arab incidents in israel

"When the leader of Israel's religious-Zionist Meimad Party recently addressed a meeting of 800 high-school students in a Tel Aviv suburb, his words on the virtue of Israeli democracy for all its citizens were drowned out by student chants of "Death to the Arabs." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM.20090126.wisrael26%2FBNStory%2FInternational%2F%3Fpage%3Drss%26id%3DRTGAM.20090126.wisrael26&ord=18771778&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

and this:

"Israel's election panel disqualified two Arab parties from running in the February 10 elections based on a motion filed by two far-right parties which claimed they did not recognise the Jewish state's right to exist. "Obviously, the right wing is stronger with the war. The Israelis are selling more cheap popularity in the streets," said Jamal Zahalqa, head of the parliamentary group of one of the two parties, the National Democratic Assembly. . . .The leader of the Greek Orthodox community in Sakhnin, father Salah Khoury, has organised a campaign to send food and clothes to Gaza, but fears the consequences of supporting the Palestinians in the enclave. "We identify with the people in Gaza, but we don't want to endanger ourselves," said the Arab Israeli. "We want to stand in our land. We're scared. Right wing Jews see us as enemies." http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h0R8Cdp-6NO1kvXp38rf3KRMk7Aw

and articles about settler violence against arabs in the west bank, which i shall find shortly. Untwirl (talk) 02:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi Untwirl, your efforts to find relevant information for the article are laudable, though I would stress that the aim of adding information should never be to "counteract" information one thinks should be omitted, per WP:POINT. About the first incident: I don't think hate speech is notable enough for a summary section, which is why I refrained from including incidents of hate speech when creating the section. About the second incident: this was already discussed a while back, with the conclusion being that no reliable sources consider it related to the conflict. By the way, the Israeli Supreme Court overturned that decision by the Central Elections Committee, so in effect nothing actually happened. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 03:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I also have problems with this section, as it represents only one side of the backlash. First, this: "Italian trade union Flaica-Cub called for the boycott of shops owned by the "israelitic community" ("comunità israelitica") in Rome, interpreted by the media as Jews, in protest at the Israeli offensive. Following an outcry and threats to sue the union under Italy's anti-racism laws, the union stated that the proposed boycott was directed at products made in Israel ("Boicottaggio dei prodotti israeliani")" is too long considering it seems to boil down to a misunderstanding. As it is the strong suggestion here is that a boycott of Israel constitutes antisemitism. What we're left with is a few assaults, some angry letters and a lot of spray-painting. If this is going to be covered then it has to be covered as it relates to both sides, not only as "antisemitism." For example, we should include "A blue Star of David with the words "Israel forever -- Arabs never" was spray-painted on a back door to the Sts. Peter and Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church in the Washington suburb of Potomac, Md. Local police said the incident is being investigated as a hate crime." No? RomaC (talk) 03:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the Rome boycott: I've seen quite a few news articles on the boycott, and none of them took the union's post-fact explanation seriously. I agree that the description of the incident is too long. I originally wrote it very briefly, then another editor added the details, presumably he thought it was fair to get the union's side in; I didn't want to delete his contribution. Regarding the church defacement: I could see making a case for including it, but then we would have to include other incidents that happened after the ceasefire, which I wanted to avoid for length reasons. Additionally, the source you brought did not connect it to the conflict (and considering it happened almost two weeks after the ceasefire, I don't see why it would be considered connected). Finally, there's a notability issue. I think what makes a defacement of a house of worship notable is the defacement itself, with the message being secondary. In this case, the message is undoubtedly anti-Arab, but is the defacement itself an anti-Muslim act? Surely not, because it was a church being defaced. So what was it? Anti-Christian? You get the idea. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 03:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

maybe we should clarify the anti-semitic part and explain that arabs are actually semites, too (sons of shem) so violence against them is anti-semitic as well by definition. Untwirl (talk) 03:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

See Antisemitism#Etymology. It was precisely because I expected misunderstandings such as these that I objected to user:Cerejota's naming of the section "Antisemitic incidents". Jalapenos do exist (talk) 03:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Reducing the importance and relevance of the strongly-supported anti-Semitic protests occuring throughout the world to various incidents in Israel IS anti-Semitic. World opinion is woefully against Israel, as is the protests against it. Equalizing Jews taunting Arabs and Arabs taunting Jews is laughable. There will always be some people who have a differing opinion, but the case remains: Anti-Semitic outbreaks far outweigh any anti-Muslim/Arab protests. And keep in mind, the majority of anti-Semitic outbreaks are intense and violent. And while there is a significant number of pro-Israel protests, very few even remotely resemble the activities organized by pro-Arab/pro-Palestinian groups. When did 10,000 angry fundamentalist Jews storm a predominantly Arab housing project and throw moltolv cocktains and rocks at the windows, whilst screaming "glory to the God of Jews" and watching a German officer storm into the Arab ghetto and taking down the flags? http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950850066&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Oh, and that source could be used in the article. A sovereign democratic government banning the waving of Israeli flags is VERY relevant to this article. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

No its not. Just as it is irrelevant that it is still illegal to wave a Palestinian flag in Israel. Nableezy (talk) 03:41, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

And I can think of a few times recently such actions have been directed at Arabs in such cities as Hebron. Nableezy (talk) 03:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan, you have to accept that if the international media is biased against Israel regarding this topic, the Misplaced Pages article must be biased too, because Misplaced Pages's policy requires sticking to the reliable sources, and until books and academic papers are written about the conflict, the media is the main reliable source we have. If you don't accept this, you will simply not be able to be a productive contributer. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 03:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, good night everyone, I'm going to bed. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 03:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, this is mind-blowingly retarded. Why wikipedia still sanctions propaganda-fallacy driven articles such these is BEYOND ME. No wonder nothing ever gets done in these kinds of discussions.

And Jalapeno, don't accuse of not being a productive contributor. You are the one who is unproductive solely based on your refusal to publish facts. There is plenty of reliable sources that provide a far differing spin then what is seen here. Sleep well. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikfan, a concern I have here is that if we take the number and scale of anti-Israeli actions as greater than the corresponding anti-Arab actions, and then declare that treating both with the same regard is "laughable", would it not then be consistent to apply the same relativism to damage and casualties in the conflict itself, and dismiss Qassam rockets as "laughable"? RomaC (talk) 03:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Jalap, I respect what you are saying, that the Israeli Supreme Court overturned the ban on Arab parties in the Knesset, and if this means "nothing happened" there, then it would be consistent to conclude that nothing happened in Italy, where the union re-named its Israeli boycott campaign. RomaC (talk) 03:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

if it is "reducing the importance and relevance of the strongly-supported anti-Semitic protests occuring throughout the world" (and according to you, anti-semitic) to include the fact that there has been a pro-israel backlash against arabs, then you have a very broad view of anti-semitism. as cerejota once wisely said, calling everything antisemitism "cheapen(s) the very real suffering of those who have faced true antisemitism." Untwirl (talk) 04:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Uh? What is the line between acceptable, or "true" anti-Semitism. As far as I can tell, the bangwagon hate occurring throughout the developed world is anti-semitism. The stone throwing, the beatings, the massive angry protests, the lawsuits, everything. It's all rooted in hate, and it is light years ahead of any event organized by extreme Zionists. There is no excuse to be ignorant. The facts are right under your nose. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

you contend that, "Equalizing Jews taunting Arabs and Arabs taunting Jews is laughable." and i say there is no difference. jews do not have a monopoly on oppression and prejudice. all people deserve to be treated with respect, jews, arabs, blacks, etc. i'll just repeat and agree with you that "there is no excuse to be ignorant." Untwirl (talk) 04:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

There is a difference. When the vast majority of the Arab world and many European nations act indifferent or support violent protests against Jews and those who support Israel, it is laughable when you try to cancel out these alarming activities because of a few anti-Hamas/Arab/Muslim etc... demonstrations. It's like equating someone who throws stones and someone who shoots rocket launchers. And BTW, the Jews as a whole aren't notorious for impression. Their respective for non-Jews and ethnic minorities greatly exceeds the tolerance given to non-Muslims in the neighboring theocracies. Point being, the anti-Semitic protests are notable and should be given a section. Just because some users think it doesn't matter because "all sides do it" is not a justifiable excuse. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

"It's like equating someone who throws stones and someone who shoots rocket launchers."

i hope you see the irony of that statement with respect to the israel-gaza conflict. Untwirl (talk) 05:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan, anti-semitic incidents are being dealt with in the reactions article. There was a standalone article. It was nominated for deletion and it was deleted yesterday. I am not going to help you find this stuff because I find you unhelpful. Please play nice. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I do see the irony and thank you for telling me you won't help me. Never in my wildest dreams did I think you would NOT help me. I'm totally and completely shocked at your irresponsibility in not helping me. I think I might die from your lack of help. Seriously. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you want to put Sean's refusal to help you under anti-semitic incidents? Nableezy (talk) 06:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh brother. Why are people in the real world very nice wherever you go in this world but so many people in WP aren't. I'm bored of this so I'm going to tell a little story now with an example of what anti-semitism isn't. Last year I was in a remote area on the Thai side of the border with Myanmar and we were chatting with a really old hill tribe guy about stuff. We asked him why there was a camp so far away from the nearest town, who was there, what was going on etc. He said it was for tourists from Israel. We asked "why are they all the way out here". He said "They're very noisy". True story. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

So there was a camp for Israelis "so far away from the nearest town" because they were noisy? Just how noisy were they? Were they shooting off celebratory gunfire? Did they use megaphones and electronic music? Maybe you are naif to have taken this "really old hill tribe guy" at his word. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Since you asked Tundrabuggy I'm very happy to expand the info. They were a bunch of youngsters doing what youngsters do best, make noise, laugh a lot, probably drink too much and generally having a good time. I should add that I'm pretty sure the old guy didn't know anything about Israel apart from that it's the name of a country somewhere out there over the mountains where tourists live, all of which he lumps into one category, Farang=foreigner. His remark was delivered without any irony and was about how annoying young people are when you get old. I thought it was funny. He seemed confused that I thought it was funny. For interest, there are tonnes of Israeli tourists in Thailand and they are throughly nice people. Hell, there's tonnes of Israeli, Arab and Iranian tourists shopping in the same Tesco Lotus down the road from me. Imagine that! Sean.hoyland - talk 02:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Re-Lede

I've brought these two archived conversations back, for its information and work.

Lede

I know the lede is a powder keg, but for the benefit of readers who actually want to read the article to know what happened, I made two small additions.

1. Added "in the Gaza Strip" to specify where Israel's military campaign was. 2. Added "on its southern communities" to specify where Hamas rocket attacks were.

I also wikilinked the first mention of Hamas in the lede instead of the second mention. I have a grain of hope that these changes won't lead to endless partisan bickering, but...they probably will. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 13:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Stylistically 'in the Gaza Strip' goes better after Operation Cast Lead. Have presumed to adjust. Only problem with adding 'in the southern communities' is checking that the sources quoted use precisely that wording, as attribbuted to Israeli spokesmen. Do they?Nishidani (talk) 15:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The sources I've seen usually use "towns and communities", "towns" or "communities". There was already a discussion about the phrase "towns and communities", with Nableezy arguing that this was weasel wordage and Cerojota and I arguing that it wasn't. The way I remember it is that Nableezy eventually accepted our position, but I can't speak for him. In any case, these are the phrases used by RS's; I chose a one-word phrase instead of a three-word phrase so as not to provoke arguments that I was giving the rocket attacks too much air time. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 16:13, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yep, and though Cerejota doesn't believe me, I argued that 'communities' is the default word for anywhere where Israelis live, and is never used to Palestinians, in most I/P articles. Here Gazans don't ever live in 'communities', though all their refugee camps and town-units are clan-structured communities. Hamas fires all over the Negev, mostly into the desert, even if it aims at settlements or towns.One argument for communities is that the many kibbutzim in the Sha'ar haNegev are not towns. On the other hand, most places hit are townships. In any case, technically, one should have this sort of phrasing sourced. We are dealing with 'stated' claims, and stated claims should follow the official Government statements to the word.Nishidani (talk) 16:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It's interesting to me that you have that gripe, because one of my pet peeves is that "villages" is used in the media only for Palestinians and not for Israelis. Since "village" has no particular administrative meaning, but does conjure images of a bucolic, peaceful New-England-type setting, I consider it to be borderline weasel-wordage in the I-P context. But since it's a problem in the RS's themselves, I would never argue against its use in Misplaced Pages, as long as it was adequately reflected in the cited sources. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 16:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I use neither. It is interesting also that Israeli village gets 77,400,000 hits on Google. 'Village', when not upmarket nouveau-bucolic, has a touristy tone, whereas 'community' is schmalzy. I refer not to general usage, but to I/P usage. Israel's stated aims, are of course those announced in the press by government and IDF spokesmen. These naturally have absolutely nothing to do with its real aims, given that Hamas had accepted to reaffirm the truce. The real aims are already coming out in strategic reports all over the place, and have nothing to so with 'protecting southern communities', which is quite simple: accept a truce, one that allows people in Gaza to eat regularly. But this is soapboxing of course. The problem remains. The links I checked that are supposed to underwrite 'southern communities', are old links, and do not mention this as the stated aim. The stated aim was generic, to stop rockets being fired.Nishidani (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"Israeli village" has 13,600 google hits, most referring to Arab-Israeli villages or reconstructed villages. "Palestinian village" gets 84,200 google hits. I'm breaking my self-imposed rule of never getting into rambling talk page discussions not related to the article. I can control myself when seeing opinions I disagree with, but when people get facts messed up, I get sucked in. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm not an expert, both 'Israeli village' gives me 24,800,000 now, and 'Palestinian village' over 1,200,000. It doesn't matter either way to me. My point was (a) Wiki I/P usage and (2) the fact that nowhere in the three sources does it state Israel's intent was other than to halt rocket fire. No mention of 'southern communities' which appears to be your construction. Note 31 by Amos Harel however has this.

The Israeli objective is clear: deal as serious a blow as possible to the Hamas chain of command in order to throw its operating capabilities off kilter. Ostensibly, it will not prevent heavy rocket fire on the Negev towns, but it will likely make it more difficult for Hamas to carry out more damaging attacks against Israel.

This is not of course Israel's stated view, but that of an opinionist- The notes 32,33,34 all refer simply to an aim of hitting 'Hamas-linked' infrastructure and stopping rocket fire, as in the original had it before you changed it. I'll restore the old version, which was more succinct, until evidence is forthcoming that the stated view was that of stopping firing into just one part of Israel, (the known military objective was to destroy Hamas's capacity to strike Israel, and stop it from achieving an upgraded capacity to strike anywhere in the country). I hardly need add that rather than arbitrary sourc es from newspapers we need a specific declaration by the government on the 27th. referring to the purpose of the assault. If this exists, and uses language that justifies your proposal, or a different formulation, by all means bring it up. If we get the official gov. or IDF (same difference)declaration, we can get rid of the three newspaper refs, which are arbitrary, and as such improper.Nishidani (talk) 18:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, Nishidani, here are three sources explicitly stating that Israel's aim was to stop Hamas rocket fire on its "southern communities" (as opposed to, say, its northern communities). For simplicity's sake I'm limiting myself only to Associated Press articles. I agree that since the RS's - and not just the Israeli government - state as fact that this was Israel's aim, saying "with the stated aim" in the lead is an unnecessary qualification: we can just say "with the aim". I said this long ago, but was opposed by... hmm, I guess it was you. In fact, since the reliable sources use the phrasing "years of rocket fire", I see no reason not to follow them on that, too; but we can leave these issues for later.

* All 15 council members agreed to a press statement drafted by Britain and France that welcomed Sunday's unilateral cease-fires by Israel and Hamas militants following Israel's offensive aimed at halting years of militant rocket fire by Hamas on its southern communities and arms smuggling into Gaza. * Israel launched the war on Dec. 27 in an effort to halt years of militant rocket fire by Hamas on its southern communities and arms smuggling into Gaza. * Israel launched the war on Dec. 27 in an effort to halt years of militant rocket fire on its southern communities and arms smuggling into Gaza. (different article, different author)

This should sate your desire for "forthcoming evidence". Now please restore the more informative, if somewhat less succinct version, and please never waste my time again by demanding that I prove trivialities. Also, please please please don't ever again make me sit through your extremist, bitter and remarkably un-self-critical soapboxing. As a symbolic admission of my partial guilt in this case, I'm striking through my earlier comments that were not directly related to the article. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 19:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

My two changes to the lede were proposed together, since one adds info on Israeli violence (and thus vivifies it, potentially bothering some pro-Israeli editors) and one adds info on Palestinian violence (and vivifies it, potentially bothering some pro-Palestinian editors), while both add necessary information for the naive reader. Nishidani was the only one who objected, predictably agreeing to the info on Israeli violence while finding a way to oppose - and then unilaterally remove - the info on Palestinian violence. Since he has not responded to me, and more importantly, since no one else has objected to my (in all honesty, ridiculously cautious) change, I am restoring it. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 21:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't be so rude. Your time is no more valuable than my own. Were I as ill-mannered as you seem to be above, I should reply that you wasted my time by inserting a phrase unsupported by the old references. It is standard wiki practice to anchor one's edits and wording in references. My drawing your attention to this was neither rude, nor time-wasting, but a matter of editorial scruple. If you demand precision from others, expect it from those who examine your own edits. You have three texts, all AP from the end of January, not the beginning of the war, which mention in this context, 'southern communities'. The phrasing they used is identical. So you edit is referenced now. It remains for me, at least, to see whether that formula employed by the Associated Press reflects precisely Israeli government or IDF statements of intent expressed when the assault began on Dec.27, or whether it is retrospective. It remains for me your edit proposal, now with proper references. I don't know about wikipedia, but that's how historians work. And I do not understand, in closing, your remarks about my 'predictably agreeing to the info on Israeli violence while finding a way to oppose - and then unilaterally remove - the info on Palestinian violence'. If I have unilaterally removed info on Palestinian violence, while agreeing to that on Israeli violence, I'd appreciate a link to show where. The only edit change a made to your lead suggestion was repositioning words for stylistic smoothness. Otherwise, unlike yourself, I left an edit I didn't agree with intact, as courtesy obliges when one's fellow-editor takes the trouble to engage in dialogue. Nishidani (talk) 22:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

'saying "with the stated aim" in the lead is an unnecessary qualification: we can just say "with the aim". I said this long ago, but was opposed by... hmm, I guess it was you.'

I didn't insert 'stated aim'. It's been there for some time, unchallenged. I agree with it. 'Stated aim' is perfectly correct, since several articles I've been reading by military and political analysts, not all with my POV by any means, assert that these two 'stated aims' often bruited about in newspapers, do not reflect far more complex considerations behind Israel's decision to go to war. To replace 'stated aim' with 'aim' is to presume we here know exactly what those real intentions were. We aren't at this state, in a position to know anymore than this. There is a very serious distinction to be preserved here.Nishidani (talk) 23:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Jalapenos, Nishidani, could you both stop with the personal attacks please? Blackeagle (talk) 23:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

What personal attack? I won't push it, but I haven't attacked anyone, and will not engage further if this is raised again. Take it to my page if you think I have. Nishidani (talk) 23:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the content of either of your changes, but now we've got quite a run on sentence. It's made even worse by all the (parenthetical) statements. How about splitting it into two sentences, something like:

"The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, part of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, started on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC) when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead (Hebrew: מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎), the campaign's stated intention was to stop Hamas rocket attacks on Israel's southern communities and target the members and infrastructure of Hamas." Blackeagle (talk) 21:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

where has nishi made a personal attack??? i see him being exceedingly patient while being accused of "extremist, bitter and remarkably un-self-critical soapboxing"

if jalapenos were serious about regretting disruption he should strike that statement and apologize. Untwirl (talk) 23:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The person who made the remark should not be allowed to light a fuse that isn't there. I checked. I mistook a newbie for an administrator and took the crack as an instance of administrative nodding, to be countered. This has blown over. Jalapenos and I are, essentially, discussing technical problems in the lead. We disagree. We argue. No harm done.Nishidani (talk) 23:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Blackeagle, I don't think either Nishidani or I engaged in a personal attack, but I did fail to keep cool. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:58, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I am adopting Blackeagle's suggestion above about splitting one sentence into two. It is a stylistic necessity and does not change the content at all. If anyone objects to it for some reason, they can say so here. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

A point, as I see my name up there; I was never involved in this discussion, though I favor a word other than communities. I think there are any number of words that fit better, and the one I would think fits the best is 'southern Israel'. Nableezy (talk) 21:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC) And I also think it should say with the 'stated aim'. It is Israel's stated aim, there are a number of sources that question these were the actual aims, questioning whether or not it was motivated by upcoming elections, or by the knowledge that support for Israel in the White House could not be assumed to be as strong upon the inauguration of Obama, or any other number of reasons. The easiest way to sidestep that is to explicitly say this is the stated aim of the Israeli government, which can be both well-sourced and verifiable. Nableezy (talk) 21:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The current version of the article uses "stated intention", rather than "stated aim". Does anyone have a preference for one over the other? Blackeagle (talk) 21:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I would favor 'aim'. I think intent would apply to wider vision, a military campaign has aims and goals, it is a tool of intent. Just me though. Nableezy (talk) 00:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd go with "aim" until being shown a good reason for "intention", at least because its used in one of the sources I quoted above. Nableezy, can you give an example of a high-level RS, say a news item from a major news organization, that assumes the alternate aims you mentioned or casts doubt on the "stated aims"? Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:58, 30 January 2009 (UTC) I'm still researching the issue of "stated aim" vs. "aim", but I thought I'd post this tidbit. Iranian Press TV, which is, to put it mildly, biased against Israel, cites the aim of ending rocket attacks against Israeli towns as fact: "Tel Aviv launched Operation Cast Lead on December 27 to put an end to rocket attacks against southern Israeli towns." Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:23, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

To be clear up there I meant I would go with 'stated aim'. There are no sources that report as fact anything that I said above questioning the stated aims, there are certainly editorials by notable authors about that, but I wouldnt think of including them in the article. The reason why I would favor stated aim is this. I don't think anybody can accurately report what any government in this world is actually trying to do. What we get is what they say they are trying to do. I would be wary of saying anything that a government says about its aims or intentions without first qualifying it as what it is, the aim that is given to the public. It goes both ways, Hamas saying their only intention is lifting the siege is only that, what they say. Nableezy (talk) 04:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The reason many of the RS's cite the stated aims as fact in this case is because there are some stated aims that are inherently plausible. If a gov't builds a bridge over a river, the stated aim of "enabling people to get from one side to the other" is inherently plausible. I agree that in war we need to be exceptionally careful, becuase gov'ts are prone to conceal things in war, but I don't see why we need to be more careful than a large portion, possibly the majority, of the reliable sources. By the way, if we do go with "stated aim", we have the added responsibility of citing the stated aim fully and accurately, as it was stated, which means pretty much quoting from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 12:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The government may also be making strategic landing strips for fighter airplanes with that bridge (from a conspiracy as to why the US has the Eisenhower Interstate System). Governments consistently hide their true motivations from the public, I just don't think we can take any at its word. Nableezy (talk) 15:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

This was not addressed: "You have three texts, all AP from the end of January, not the beginning of the war, which mention in this context, 'southern communities'. The phrasing they used is identical. So you edit is referenced now. It remains for me, at least, to see whether that formula employed by the Associated Press reflects precisely Israeli government or IDF statements of intent expressed when the assault began on Dec.27, or whether it is retrospective." -Nishidani

Because if we DO go back to the beginning of this conflict(and we should when addressing the lead), we'll find the following:

Dec 30 - Israel attacks Gaza for the fourth day - http://www.kbc.co.ke/story.asp?ID=54699 (from the BBC)

On goals(aim) - "Israel's defence chief earlier said his country was fighting a "war to the bitter end" against Hamas."

On whether to use 'stated' or not - "Israel says its aim is to end the rocket attacks by Hamas-linked militants - of which there were reportedly more than 40 on Monday."

Dec 27 - Israel's attack on Gaza kills hundreds - http://www.contracostatimes.com/california/ci_11323391

On goals - "The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket attacks that have traumatized southern Israel."

"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said late Saturday that the goal was "to bring about a fundamental improvement in the security situation." He added, "It could take some time."

"Stated"? - see above plus "Israel warned it might go after Hamas' leaders, and militants kept pelting Israel with rockets - killing at least one Israeli and wounding six.

Dec 30 - Israel Assaults Hamas In Gaza - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/27/israel-launches-air-strik_n_153664.html

On goals - "Israel's stated goal is to cripple Hamas' ability to launch rockets at Israeli towns, which means that a ground invasion is becoming more likely as it becomes clear that airstrikes alone cannot finish the job."

"Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak has declared "all-out war against Hamas."

"Stated"? Yes. But infrastructure? and since Hamas fire those rockets from civilians area, not having military bases of their own, police stations and houses in gaza are Hamas' infrastructures?

I recognized Nishidani's point as being that from the beginning there was ambiguity as to what this Israel's attack was to bring Israel itself. Now there was a target inside Gaza, Hamas, there is war, but is war about what? goals? yes to some degree, but most of those goals can't be archived until conquering has been archived(re:Iraq war, AND Israel's previous occupations of both Lebanon and Palestine)...so to cripple Gaza, only Hamas's "infrastructure" was the "stated" goal?

At what point, even Israel's foreign minister was at odds with what the prime minister was "stating" as the goals for this operation.

Needless to say then, it would be a great disservice if we use Israel's "stated goals" as of Jan 30.

My humble suggestion is to leave it as "The operation was aimed at..." Stated is a loaded term.

There should be even more discussion on this BTW. Cryptonio (talk) 20:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Plus, Dec 30 - ANALYSIS / Hamas is hoping for an IDF ground operation in Gaza - http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051024.html

On goals - "The operation's goals, as defined by the cabinet, are "creating a different long-term security situation in the south, while bolstering Israel's deterrence." The IDF does not interpret this to mean a complete end to the rocket fire, as it considers this impossible. Rather, its goal is to eliminate Hamas' desire to attack Israel. The bombing campaign has so far dealt a severe blow to Hamas."

Fire in the hole. Notice ref to "as defined"(so they are defining what they are stating? or vice-versa?) plus IDF does not interpret what's been stated(which of course was defined before it was stated) which at the end, they disregard what was stated for them(perhaps rather just defined, in order for them to interpret on their own?) because they found what was 'defined' for them impossible(or what they interpreted as being defined to them). Cryptonio (talk) 20:53, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I have a really hard time with complaints that "community" should not be used in the lead but "Massacre" is A-OK. Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:23, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Well then, thanks for the input. Misplaced Pages is not calling it a Massacre, we just say who is. Here, wikipedia is using the term 'communities', not just saying who is. There is a little bit of a difference there in case you were wondering. Nableezy (talk) 02:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

New section re lead

Jalapenos do exist and other committed editors. I'm extremely wary of touching leads until agreement is established via discussion. It used to be fairly balanced. What we have now, on checking it this morning, is gross reduplication, which the text didn't have earlier. It reads:-

(a) with the stated intention of stopping Hamas rocket attacks on Israel's southern communities and targeting the members and infrastructure of Hamas.. In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre (Arabic: مجزرة غزة‎).

(b)A six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008. Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce. Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and for an Israeli raid on a purported cross-border tunnel in the Gaza Strip on November 4, which it held constituted a serious breach of the truce. Israel blamed Hamas for rocket and mortar attacks on Israel.)

(c) On 27 December 2008, Israel launched its military operation with the stated objective of halting Hamas rocket fire and the smuggling of weapons through underground tunnels from Egypt. Hamas demands the cessation of Israeli attacks and an end to the Gaza Strip blockade.

In my view (b) relatively untouched since the beginning, is fairly balanced. However (a) and (c) repeat the same phrasing, and this should never occur in leads.

The Ist para describes the Operation, Israeli's objectives. The second gives background and reciprocal blame or claims. The third repeats the already explained 'intentions' of para one, simply changing 'stated intention' with 'stated objective', while adding a further one (tunnel smuggling), and repeats the claim made by Hamas in para 2. Israel in (c) which is all repetitition, gets 24 words, Hamas 15.

Para (c) is therefore repetitive, reduplicates parts of para (a) and para (b), in violation of WP:LEDE. Since it says nothing new, but hammers away, I suggest it be removed, with an eye however to conserving in some form the 'tunnel smuggling' bit. However retain that, with a RS showing it was the explicit view of the IDF/Gov, and you then have a balancing problem. For Hamas, those tunnels mainly serve as corridors for food and goods to get round the blockade.Nishidani (talk) 11:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that (c) is mostly repetitive. What about moving the smuggling allegation to paragraph (b). Have it read something like:

(b)A six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008. Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce. Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and for an Israeli raid on a purported cross-border tunnel in the Gaza Strip on November 4, which it held constituted a serious breach of the truce. Israel claimed cross-border tunnels were used for smuggling weapons while Hamas insisted the tunnels were necessary to supply Gaza with goods and food. Israel blamed Hamas for rocket and mortar attacks on Israel using the smuggled weapons.

Blackeagle (talk) 15:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

What exactly does that paragraph purport to explain? Why the truce was not renewed? You have Hamas claiming that Israel was not lifting the blockade as justification, though it is not clear whether that was agreed upon as part of the truce agreement. You have Hamas holding one cross-border tunnel raid as a reason, and give Hamas' rationale for the tunnels. You say "Israel blamed Hamas for rocket and mortar attacks using smuggled weapons." Nowhere does it acknowledge that Hamas fired weapons and mortar into Israel the entire time of the truce, really ratcheting it up in November & December. It does not state that Israel considered this to be a "serious breach of the truce". The fact that the weapons were smuggled was not Israel's reason for this counter-offensive. It was in fact the constant, almost daily fire throughout most of the truce that was the main reason -- and Israel did in fact hold the constant firing on the "southern communities" to be a "serious breach of the truce". Israel's view isn't really reflected in this paragraph except perhaps as an afterthought. Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:47, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

This is intended as a readability edit rather than a content edit. The content itself is pretty much identical with what is currently in the article, it's just arranged a bit less redundantly. Do you prefer the current version to what I proposed above? Blackeagle (talk) 02:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that was meant as the "universal 'you'" as opposed to the "personal" you. If it were clear that we were talking about the reasons that the "truce" was not renewed, as opposed to the first paragraph which supposedly is talking about the reasons for "Operation Cast Lead" itself,' it would not then be redundant, though it might be similar. Hamas and Israel could not come to terms to extend the truce. Then Hamas' stated reasons & Israel's stated reasons, fairly. If you are not going to explain why there was no extension of the truce you could leave it all out or put it in later in the background section. ie "A six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008. Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce." End of story. Just a thought. Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Although the lead has received exceptional cosmetic changes, there are a few that are necessary still. I will bring a few that I believe will enhance the article, with the help of the last conversation on record on this matter. Since the archived conversation was taken into consideration, I assume that it has wide support and warrants an edit before further debate.

• Para A "The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, part of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, started on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC) when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead (Hebrew: מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎), the campaign's stated intention was to stop Hamas rocket attacks on Israel's southern communities and target the members and infrastructure of Hamas. In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre (Arabic: مجزرة غزة‎)."

It has been widely referenced, that the MAIN reason(perhaps even the only reason) given by Israel in support of the military operation(at the beginning of the conflict), is to stop rocket attacks by Hamas on southern Israel. One of the actions, that in Israel's view had to be done in order to archive this goal, was the targeting of 'so called'(but widely accepted as) Hamas' infrastructures. To this point, it should be made clear, that those attacks against Hamas' infrastructures were part of the operation but not a goal in itself, since the actual implementation of the operation, in itself, was not a stated goal. These changes are reflected and supported by the same sourced material of the Para's current format(and more were also presented). Also, before the operation, Israel had no information on what Hamas' response was going to be, so the targeting of its members was not a goal, but part of the operation since Israel was planning in using its military to archive the goal of stopping Hamas rockets. Here we must make the distinction between overall goals, and military operations. Not surprising in itself, since Israel(understandingly) would not make its actions known beforehand.

As for 'campaign's stated intention', on those same sources in support of the information, it does not include that phrasing, simply because it would be redundant. Once Israel makes its intentions known as a statement, and thus stated, it is taken as authoritative. If then, we go ahead and quote those intentions or aim, we are presenting the actual statement, and it doesn't need to be reminded(but sourced yes), that at one point it was stated, for we are quoting or resuming what that statement entailed. Only when there is a question on whether the party has made its intentions clearly, should our job be to clarify(by the input of known documentation) what those intentions were. And so, it would warrant the usage of the word "stated". In this matter, it is widely known that stop Hamas rockets were the reason given by Israel at the beginning of the conflict, and that in order to archive that goal, a military operation(with military actions) was the order.

Last, there was no mention at all about "southern communities" and I'm not surprise( in good faith, of course) but surely disappointed that it is till there. Almost all material used at the start of this operation, used the phrase "Southern Israel" as any respectable publication would.

New Para

The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, part of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, started on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC) when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead (Hebrew: מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎), the campaign's aim was to stop Hamas' rocket attacks on southern Israel's and included the targeting of Hamas' members and infrastructure. In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre (Arabic: مجزرة غزة‎).

Cryptonio (talk) 02:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps some mention to the ceasefire and the breach of the ceasefire should be made also?

The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, part of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, started on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC) when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead (Hebrew: מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎), the campaign's aim was to stop Hamas' rocket attacks on southern Israel and included the targeting of Hamas' members and infrastructure. The conflict is currently under ceasefire(negotiated on */**) however the conditions of the agreement were not fully agreed upon by either party, and several infringemments of the ceasefire have caused further violence. In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre (Arabic: مجزرة غزة‎). Andrew's Concience (talk) 02:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

(a) 'stated intention' is just because there are two reasons for going to war, the official and the long-term strategic. There must be quite a few sources dated 27-28 December 2008 which give the Israeli government's official position on why it undertook Operation cast Lead. So far, in lieu, of these statements, we only have retrospective articles from the press all repeating the same formula. Can't anyone dig up the words used by Israel or the IDF's spokesman on the 27th to explain the onset of the attack?

(b) 'Southern communities'. I objected to this. I think we should stick to the actually wording used at the outset of the campaign. Rocket fire on the sha'ar hanegev was a casus belli for Israel, as was Israeli fire on the Gaza Strip. In both cases 'communities' were hit, with the difference that almost all Hamas and co's rocketry fell outside of towns, whereas Israel's fire was extremely accurate, and almost invariably hit what it was aimed at, i.e. communities. To use 'communities' unilaterally of Israel, is unbalancing, and misleading, for by default it implies, tacitly, that on the other hand, Gazan 'communities' weren't hit.Nishidani (talk) 09:41, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I share your concern over 'exact wording' in this matter. At this time, I do not understand your position on the 'long-term strategic' reason as related to the actual operation. The bare minimum that I grasp would be the statement by Israel's prime minister in here http://www.contracostatimes.com/california/ci_11323391, which is dated btw, 12/27/08. "Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said late Saturday that the goal was "to bring about a fundamental improvement in the security situation." He added, "It could take some time.". But at the same time, "The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket attacks that have traumatized southern Israel."

If, by your request, there is another publication per the dates giving by you, more information is found I will be glad to read over them. And if that's the case, where in your opinion this 'watered down' wording being used in the lead right now, is not adequate, some further editing can be discussed.

On the second matter, I do not understand "sha'ar hanegev", perhaps only that it could mean desert? where most of Hamas rockets fall? I'll await confirmation on that since it seems a workable matter that with sources can be corrected. In my opinion though, if that's the case, those areas would make up 'southern Israel' as well. I will retreat on this matter until further opinion and research has been found since I've made clear my position till now. Cryptonio (talk) 14:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Cryptonio. That quote from Olmert 12/27/08 is spot-on. There should be some official Israeli source, of course, but method requires something of this order. Perhaps that in the meantime could be edited in as a provisory source, a good one too, since it gives 'southern Israel' (not, note 'southern communities').

The area basically hit over the years is the Sha'ar Negev(שער הנגב), the administrative area of the northern Negev.Nishidani (talk) 18:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Cryptonio, re the phrasing "southern communities": in the archived discussion I brought 3 sources using that phrasing. I researched the issue, and "southern towns", "southern communities" and "southern towns and communities" seem to be the most common phrasing in the international media for the target of Hamas rocket attacks. Presumably the reasoning behind that phrasing is that it briefly indicates that the target of the rockets are civilian habitations rather than army bases or infrastructure. Rather than speculate about what credible sources "would" do, why not just check them? Jalapenos do exist (talk) 18:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Nishidani: Perhaps you could preview for us in here how you would include your idea, and let us discuss it. I am really into reading what others think on this matter.

Jalapenos: I clearly remember your posting on your 3 references. But you did not discussed or rather addressed Nishidani's response to your point. You just did not followed through for some reason. "You have three texts, all AP from the end of January, not the beginning of the war, which mention in this context, 'southern communities'. The phrasing they used is identical. So you edit is referenced now. It remains for me, at least, to see whether that formula employed by the Associated Press reflects precisely Israeli government or IDF statements of intent expressed when the assault began on Dec.27, or whether it is retrospective." -Nishidani

I concurred with Nishidani on that point, and although I did not read others' approval I did not hear your disapproval neither. Again, for the lead we should use material from the start of the conflict, when everything was happening and people were saying things. Those at the end of January, are elaborating and perhaps had time for style points, which is how i feel when you talk about Hamas rockets falling on 'israeli communities'. Perhaps is not well known that Hamas rockets actually kill Israelis, but i will be surprised if is not universally known that those rockets affects people's life inside of Israel. Using 'communities' does not make it 'more' believable and using 'Southern Israel' does not takes the danger away. Cryptonio (talk) 20:28, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Jalapenos and I disagreed. We are unlikely to persuade each other. I didn't touch 'southern communities' even though I thought the introduction of that wording wrong. I waited for some rational consensus to build. I'm not in a hurry here. I dislike 'communities' for the reasons stated: I see this as the way Israeli or Jewish towns are selectively described, as opposed to Palestinian 'communities', from working on I/P articles. Secondly, sources should state the given reasons at the outbreak of the war in Israeli media that provide the official rationale for the war. J's three sources are all late, 2 or three from one writer, and all 3 from Associated Press. Thirdly, given the known inaccuracy of those rockets, and the fact that the areas they hit are thinly populated, it is not as if they consistently hit 'communities' as opposed to being fired in their direction. Evidently, Hamas' strategy is to reproduce some of the panic on the other side of the border that is chronic in the Strip as a result of Israel's continual killing raids from the time of the disengagement down to the truce in June last year. 'Southern Israel' is rather generic: I said Sha'ar haNegev because that's the zone, the northern district of southern Israel, most affected. But it is fair enough as a general description, even if imrpoved rocket technology means that 'Israel' is, and will be, seen as the general target. Just as Gaza is the IDF's favourite bombing zone.I think therefore that Israel, as it used to be, is best; 'southern Israel' more precise topologically, but rather restrictive, while 'southern communities' a subtle intrusion of an emotive POV.Nishidani (talk) 14:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Changing 'destruction' and 'dismantling'

Moved this down, we need to change the sentence below as it is WP:plagiarism. This sentence, in the Background section -- is it neutral? (my itals) "Hamas considers Israel an illegitimate state and is doctrinally committed to its destruction, while Israel views Hamas as a terrorist group that must be dismantled." How to rephrase this, as it has been lifted verbatim from the the cited article, which is WP:plagiarism. RomaC (talk) 16:16, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

"Hamas considers Israel an illegitimate state and is doctrinally committed to its destruction, while Israel views Hamas as a terrorist group that must be removed from power in the Gaza strip."

You can't destroy or demolish Hamas it's a worlwide organisation. Destruction in the case of Israel can stay as it would probably be thae words any Hamas official would use Andrew's Concience (talk) 04:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, more importantly I guess is that "Hamas considers Israel an illegitimate state and is doctrinally committed to its destruction" is just plain wrong given that Hamas, like all Arab states, Iran, pretty much everyone in the world supports a 2 state solution albeit with some conditions. If we are going to say something about Hamas' position on this then we better get it right. Maybe whoever inserted this text didn't even know that. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:15, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Sean, that's not true. Reliable source consider Hamas to be doctrinally committed to Israel's destruction. This assessment is based on, among other things, Hamas' charter (available online, and quite an amusing read, what with the references to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and so forth). Jalapenos do exist (talk) 16:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Jalapenas, I don't know if you have ever lived in the Middle East but you quickly learn that there is huge difference between the propaganda/rhetoric crap and nonsense thrown around by all sides and the pragmatic reality of peoples actual positions on issues especially the average members of the public who are just trying to live a happy life like everyone else. This is something that much of the 'reliable' media chooses to ignore, particularly in the US, preferring instead to present a grossly distorted view of reality on the ground. I don't know why. Maybe they're just lazy or think that people prefer cowboys vs injuns stories. The reality is that Hamas supports a 2 state solution. It doesn't get into the press very often but see these articles for example. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-softens-israel-stance-in-calls-for-palestinian-state-431624.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jan/10/israel1. There's more where that came from. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Sean, if a group usually presents itself in a politically inexpedient way ("we are theocratic, antisemitic, conspiracy-theory-driven, intransigent wackos"), and occasionally presents itself in a politically expedient way ("well, we might be pragmatic about this one thing"), don't you think it's likely that the former stance represents what it truly believes, and the latter stance is posturing for political benefits, such as international legitimacy and money? Jalapenos do exist (talk) 19:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

There's an enormous irony in me apparently painting Hamas as peace brokers given that I dislike religion based political movements (yeah, call me an atheist bigot). I guess my point is that Hamas is a political party, therefore everything they say is politically expedient and will vary according to who their audience is at any particular moment and which RS you look at etc. No surprise there. Who knows what the truth is or even if there is one truth but I guess it's probably whatever position would maximise their popular support and financing like anywhere else and that would be to support a 2 state solution. The RS say that Hamas are both things, a party that wants Israel's destruction and a party that supports a 2 state solution. So, mentioning one without the other is misleading and an oversimplification. I'm with Nableezy on his proposal at 17:46, 4 February 2009 below. Let the contradictory facts speak for themselves. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Wrong, the vast majority of the Arab world do not support a two-state solution. As evident by their refusal to provide citizenship to Palestinians, indifference or financial support of Hamas, and woefully tactless handling of refugee camps situated in their lands. But this is an entirely different argument.  : ) Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

So far 55 Islamic and Arab states have undertaken to recognize Israel within the 67 borders. Israel has yet to give a formal answer to this proposal made at the Beirut summit, and repeated twice since.Nishidani (talk) 09:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Well you say that but when I visited a refugee camp in Jordan many years ago I was very impressed by the number of TV aerials. There were so many that somebody could have lost an eye. :) Sean.hoyland - talk 04:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Anecdotal evidence is very impressive. I'm sure the many Christians being harassed in this camps and the conditions exacerbated by the hypocritical theocracies must have impressed you as well. Or, how extremist literature is spread throughout the various educational facilities (often financed by the UN) unabated. Please, leave your confusing sympathies with someone who cares. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok Wikifan enough. Maybe you could find conversation of your "caliber" some where like www.arguingwithfools.com . You're all over this talk page doing nothing but antagonizing people. It stops now.............or I'm telling Andrew's Concience (talk) 04:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe just remove the sentence all together.:"Elements within Gaza and Palestine consider Israel to be illegitimate state and are committed to its destruction, while Israel views Hamas as a terrorist group that must be removed from power in the Gaza strip." Sounds convoluted and blatantly obvious Andrew's Concience (talk) 04:28, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Very odd, since the ones doing the destruction are the Israelis, and not just of Hamas. Obliterate the sentence please --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 04:54, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, those evil Israeli's. How dare they avoid historic muslim sites and taking great prejudice in avoiding civilian casualties, unlike their friendly, peaceful, tolerant, Hamas neighbors. If Israel wanted to truly kill civilians, they could demolish Gaza in 15 seconds. That's what Hamas would have done if they had the capacity to do so. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You are right, I salute Israel for not completing a genocide. What tremendous moral fiber they must possess. Surely Hamas would have done that, why Miss Cleo says so! Nableezy (talk) 05:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree Nableezy, Israelis should be commended for not completely wiping Gaza off the non-Israeli map. The Israelis take great care when they aim at homes, schools, mosques, hospitals, medical personnel, and civilians. They avoid causing collateral damage to the vegetation while targeting with precision. Just ask the Samounis. What is left of them of course.-- Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 05:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, my intent. Your true colors show. Here, let me direct you to a site you might find very interesting: Lovely —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikifan12345 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

My true colors? I just praised Israel for showing remarkable restraint in not completing a genocide! What else do you want from me? And your true colors are what exactly? Nableezy (talk) 05:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

And for all those living in the states that are at all worried about triggering an NSA seizure of your computing equipment, the above link is to a site about the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, might not want to click. To my homies up in Canada, click away! Nableezy (talk) 05:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

No thanks. One should be more worried about what happens when they can't seize your computer. --JGGardiner (talk) 10:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

By your true colors, I'm not referring to your obvious sympathies with Hamas and total ignorance of the situation in Israel. I'm talking about how your talking me down about the idolization of Falk in the international lead, using various fallacies and citing rules (or someone else was citing rules), while your own opinion is a strong cause for concern. You are acting out in the interests of your heated self and not according to the supposed-neutral POV advocated by wikipedia.
My colors? I believe in truth. I don't endorse everything Israel does, but I know bullshit when I see it. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Well then, try identifying what you are writing and you may be surprised that much of it is bullshit. Nableezy (talk) 05:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how destructive it might be. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan you haven't said one thing in this section applying to the ACTUAL TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED. Either participate in the discussion of this particular topic or get out. That goes for everyone else who wants to use this as a forum to argue with other editors.Andrew's Concience (talk) 06:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, now you state the obvious? Thank you Andrew. Your timing is impeccable. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm handsome too Andrew's Concience (talk) 06:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Man, Wikifan, why can't you be less, lets say, combative? Pretty much everyone here knows were people tend to stand soapbox-wise. If you are going to appeal to motive every time someone disagrees, we will get nowhere. I have seen here some rather strange and hopeful collaboration, and even sincere friendliness about people accross all POVs - lets keep it that way, and lets work towards it. The reality is that neither the pro-Plaesitnians nor the pro-Israelis can be convinced to abandon their true colors - what we must do is collaborate in spite of them to build a neutral encyclopedia. I hope you can join in that spirit.--Cerejota (talk) 06:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

That was my original spirit, but I became discourage by the total and completely resentment for facts and truths, in addition to the stubbornness willingly adopted by even veteran editors. Blah. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan, please adhere to WP:CIVIL. For all the real pro-Israel, pro-Palestine, and/or neutral editors, do not fall in this trap. Remember:"this is an article that the Palestinians will fight for. You want to get them into trouble", the previous CAMERA Misplaced Pages lobbyists. --Darwish07 (talk) 08:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not accusing Wikifan of belonging to CAMERA, I'm just warning the real editors from people who are trying to disrupt others instead of faithfully improving Misplaced Pages. --Darwish07 (talk) 08:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I attributed the statement in question even more clearly to context and source (note: a ref already clearly indicated the source, --> no plagiarism) and put the NYT quote in quotation marks. That should do. Skäpperöd (talk) 08:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok Skäpperöd quotes citing NYT will do, thanks. I still wonder whether the sentence is a neutral choice, with one side characterized as bent on "destroying" and the other "dismantling." RomaC (talk) 05:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

It's plain wrong. See response to Jalapenas further up. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, given that the "dismantlers" have destroyed much more than the "destroyers" have, that the terms in this sentence may be misleading. I mean, "Hamas and Israel hate one another" is what it boils down to... Should we say "Hamas regards Israel as an occupying power and Israel regards Hamas as terrorists" or should we shitcan this sentence? Or something else? It's harder to phrase than I thought it would be, and I want everyone to be happy with the edit. RomaC (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this would be appropriate: Hamas views Israel as an illegitimate state and its charter calls for Israels destruction (cited to this bbc article), while Israel views Hamas as a terrorist organization that must be dismantled (cited to the NYT article). And there have been recent quotes by Hamas officials saying they will not stop until Israel is destroyed. If you can find some Israeli government official calling for the destruction of Hamas change the word, but I for one am not big on avoiding facts. The Hamas charter clearly calls for the 'destruction' of the state of Israel. Nableezy (talk) 17:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I am fine with the way Nableezy put and sourced it, and also agree with the reasoning. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

dismantled or annihilated with every one and everything in its path?? --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 19:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm okay with Nableezy's proposal if there's consensus for that. These are facts after all but I'd prefer some mention of the contradictory positions of Hamas re: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-softens-israel-stance-in-calls-for-palestinian-state-431624.html and http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jan/10/israel1 to avoid oversimplification. The same probably goes for Israel's position on Hamas although I don't have a source for that. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

antisemitic incidents edit revert

isn't the reactions section supposed to be a summary of the reactions article?

regarding an incident in italy, the main page says, "] Italian trade union Flaica-Cub called for the boycott of shops owned by the "israelitic community" ("comunità israelitica") in Rome, interpreted by the media as Jews, in protest at the Israeli offensive. Following an outcry and threats to sue the union under Italy's anti-racism laws, the union stated that the proposed boycott was directed at products made in Israel ("Boicottaggio dei prodotti israeliani"). "

in the international reactions page, this is the only mention of that event "In Italy, a trade union called for a boycott of Jewish-owned shops in Rome."

A. the main article page should be a summary of the (more detailed) international reactions page, not the other way around.

B;. the international reactions page mischaracterizes the boycott as "jewish owned" with no reference to what the union clarified was their actual proposal.

cerejota, i respect your editing and dont want to go in and revert your reversion. please look over the whole section and see if you agree that it is too much detail. also look at the discussion above entitled "antisemitic incidents" (about the first half or so, before it disintegrated). specifically i'd like to see if you agree to add anti-arab incidents and either rename it to anti-jew/anti-arab incidents or go into the whole etymology of semite (since they both are , technically, semitic, could all be seen as anti-semitic attacks)  : ) thanks alot Untwirl (talk) 07:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's some background. A link to Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Antisemitic_incidents_alleged_to_be_related_to_the_2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict for those of your who missed it. Here's a link to the admin's talk page User_talk:MZMcBride to read the comments from some understandably peeved editors. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Far more honest than this bloated article. Oh no, disagreement! *censor stick* Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there will be any censorship in practice. It's very likely that all of the info will survive in one of the articles split off from the gigantic reactions article. That article has to be split for practical reasons. There are enough editors willing to make sure that racially motivated attacks related to this event are covered in WP. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

This section is bad as it inflate the word antisemitism, a word that should be saved for those who have a irrational hate against jews like nazis. Arabs and muslims attacking jews is more common etnical violence (though not less bad) and in this context not irrational after israels unproportional killings in gaza. I suggest to merge it in diferent sections or condense it to mention pure antisemitic attacks. Not containing attacks by arabs and muslims. Brunte (talk) 13:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I changed the title to 'Violent and Antisemitic backlash to the events in Gaza' As it would give space for my considerations without changing text to much. But I think it is to long. Brunte (talk) 13:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

as I get reverted by some random user Dendlai maby some other can look at the my edit. Brunte (talk) 14:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

"Random User" eh? Well, I guess on wikipedia, we are all random users. I disagree with the wording "Violent and antisemitic" because it equates the two. Antisemtism = violence. (And oh, I've had this page on my watchlist for quite some time now. Just not jumped into the fray yet.) I just thought equating antismeitism and violence seemed a bit too POV. Like using an extra loaded bad word to "discredit" the protestors, some of who, I agree, seem antisemitics. Weasel language. No reason to label them both antisemitic AND violent. If they used violence, then that's what we write. If they didn't.. No need to lump them under a heading that says they were violent. Dendlai (talk) 15:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagreed with that change and reverted it. My rationale is that "violent and antesimitic" sounds too POV, saying antisemitic and violent is the same (both are bad, but they aren't necessarily the same). I reverted as soon as I saw it on instinct, thinking it was a pretty pro-Israeli POV edit. Dendlai (talk) 14:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

anti-jewish or anti-arab incidents are better Untwirl (talk) 15:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, what I did was rework the content into the appropriate section and sub-article, because it was under "effects", which was inappropriate (this is not an effect of direct combat, which is what "effects" section/subarticle is about). So I put it in reactions. I didn't want to get into a debate on content, so I didn't modify anything. This was essentially wikifairy stuff. I do think it should be shorter, but deservers its own section in reactions in this article. In particular the reaction in Europe was virulent and blatantly anti-semitic. I think we should remove the more debatable stuff like signs in protests, and there is some blatant right-wing LGF type stretchign of the word, but calling a spade a spade, if the RS do it, is a no brainer. And the freaking president of France addressed the matter, so this not some kind of Fringe crap. There have been a wave of antisemitic actions, and this needs to be included in an encyclopedic article.--Cerejota (talk) 17:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

i agree completely that it should be included, my point however is that the main article page should be a summary of the (more detailed) international reactions page. i don't recall anyone saying it was "Fringe crap", please point to that comment. attempts are being made to summarize several sections and this one in particular is covered in detail on another page. your link to wp:moralize only suggests that "anti-semitic" is an unnecessary descriptor for the incidents.

wp:moralize "Let the facts speak for themselves

Karada offered the following advice in the context of the Saddam Hussein article: You won't even need to say he was evil. That is why the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man"—we don't need to, his deeds convict him a thousand times over. We just list the facts of the Holocaust dispassionately, and the voices of the dead cry out afresh in a way that makes name-calling both pointless and unnecessary. Please do the same: list Saddam's crimes, and cite your sources. Resist the temptation to apply labels or moralize—readers will probably not take kindly to being told what to think. Let the facts speak for themselves and let the reader decide." Untwirl (talk) 18:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, lets present the facts. I agree with removal of incidents not labeled as antisemitic by RS or from which an obvious, non-controversial conclusion of being antisemtic can be drawn. For example, a mugger mugging jewish tourists is not antisemitism, but an RS saying "Jewish tourist were told "Death to Jews" during a mugging" is antisemitic. I think some have tried to throw the baby with the bathwater, maybe as ofer reaction to pro-Israeli pov pushing, but also perhaps of their own bias.

When I said "fringe crap" I mean that due weight considerations are mostly as part of "fringe in wikilaw: this material is not fringe should be included, and should be included as copiously as RS allow as per the need for an encyclopedic voice (after all, we are not journalism). Of course, this doesn't mean a list of every antisemitic incident, but it does means a generalized, thorough and well sourced space should exist for this information. If we are to give our readers an NPOV view of the events around this war, we should be careful to give context.

A clear international reaction of this conflict (not an "effect" or an "incident" as some would have it) was a notable increase in antisemitic attacks worldwide. This is entirely relevant. We should not MORALIZE around it, qualifying the responses, or arguing that these facts are linked to X or Y arguments, unless reliable sources do so, but include? Snowball.

My position is exactly the same as with the inclusion of pictures, except in this case the RS threshold is higher, because its text. --Cerejota (talk) 07:23, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

i actually interpret moralize differently. there probably are sources saying hitler was a bad man, just as sources may label incidents antisemitic. labeling a boycott antisemitic when it is in response to the actions of the state of israel is false. it does not reflect a deep-seated hatred of jews, but an outcry against the military actions of a state. the increase of attacks is a reflection of anti-israeli sentiment, not anti semitism. i think a dispassionate, brief description, such as the one used to describe the backlash of attacks against arabs in america after 9/11, is best:

Hate crimes Numerous incidents of harassment and hate crimes were reported against Middle Easterners and other "Middle Eastern-looking" people in the days following the 9/11 attacks. Sikhs were also targeted because Sikh males usually wear turbans, which are stereotypically associated with Muslims in the United States. There were reports of verbal abuse, attacks on mosques and other religious buildings (including the firebombing of a Hindu temple) and assaults on people, including one murder: Balbir Singh Sodhi was fatally shot on September 15, 2001. He, like others, was a Sikh who was mistaken for a Muslim. According to a study by Ball State University, people perceived to be Middle Eastern were as likely to be victims of hate crimes as followers of Islam during this time. The study also found a similar increase in hate crimes against people who may have been perceived as members of Islam, Arabs and others thought to be of Middle Eastern origin. Untwirl (talk) 20:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Untwirl, these post 9/11 "hate crimes" are so called for a reason! Attacks against middle-easterners are labelled "Anti-Arab", not "anti-terrorism" attacks. Who cares what the motive is. You will note on the anti-Semitism page that some anti-Semitism is based on irrational or deep-seated hatred of Jews. But this hatred stems from what has been associated with Jews, irrational or not. Other forms, such as that as a hate of Judaism itself, also counts! If most Jews support Israel, then those who hate Israel will also hate Jews. This hate is called anti-Semitic. A hate of Jews for what they believe in. Any attacks against Jews due to what they are associated with, are therefore classed anti-Semitic. What I find intriguing is that it is the pro-Arabs here who are busy saying there is a distinct difference between anti-Israel and anti-Jewish attacks, yet generally they tend to view Israel and Jews as synonymous in every other instance, why make a distinction here?

The deleted page had a “Motives” sections which dealt with this very issue. I am personally of the opinion that Jews and Israel are distinct issues. And since Jews who may have not personally supported the Israeli actions, have been targeted just for being Jewish - that itself is enough to call it anti-Semitic. These rage filled people automatically perceive every Jew as supportive of Israeli actions, just as other anti-Semites view all Jews as miserly. But not all Jews are misers. And not all Jews support the State of Israel. If someone wants to boycott Israel, let them. Let them scrawl offensive graffiti on Israeli embassies, or target Israeli institutions or citizens. Why bring Jews into the picture? Why desecrate a synagogue in Venezuela 5,000 miles away on the other side of the world? Was there an Israeli flag hanging from its roof? That is the other argument why these attacks are classified as anti-Semitic. Have a look at my last response to Yamanam at . Best, Chesdovi (talk) 23:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Anti-semitism is attacking Jews for being Jews. I think that includes attacking Jewish places (homes, shops, places of worship) or Jews in general because of the actions of Israel. But if I hated dentists because they enjoy sticking drills in people and I attack somebody who is a dentist but also happens to be a Jew, that is not an anti-semitic attack. It is an anti-dentite attack. But yes I think the term anti-semitc covers attacks on Jews as a response to actions of the state of Israel, they are associating the synagogue with Israel because it is Jewish, so it follows that they are attacking it because it is Jewish. Nableezy (talk) 01:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Another removal of a large section of sourced material

I really hate to be a tattle-tale, but I've been the main editor working against this phenomenon recently, and I'm unable to revert anymore, so another editor needs to take this up. User:Brunte has removed most of the content in the "antisemitic incidents"/"attacks against Jews and Arabs"/whatever section, shortly after beginning a discussion where he proposed to make that change. There is currently no consensus for his change, nor has there been time for a consensus to form. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 19:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

jalps, respond above, where there is already a discussion taking place (and waiting for your rebuttal or concession, i might add). no need for another (3rd? 4th?) section on this same topic Untwirl (talk) 19:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I see concensus, you dont? Im I wrong or do I smell the smell of rounding up meatpuppets? Thats not nice if its true. Brunte (talk) 19:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Untwirl, I can't be everywhere at once. I just responded to your argument above. The two discussions are different: the discussion above is about whether to accept Brunte's proposed change, and the discussion here is not so much a discussion as a notification to editors that Brunte is engaged in disruptive editing, given that the discussion above has just started and that Brunte has previously suggested this removal without gaining consensus, and that several editors have earlier made statements that would preclude their acceptance of this removal. Brunte, see WP:CONSENSUS, WP:MEAT and WP:DIS for answers to your questions. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 19:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

This is serious acusations you bringing up. Stop waring and cool down. Els I you risk sanctions I guess. Brunte (talk) 20:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

who are these several editors? i

there is wikifan, who has bandied about the term 'anti-semite' at every opportunity. thats it. on the other side are brunte, andrews conscience, roma c, sean, vr, and myself and possibly nableezy weighing in on the 'trim down' side, including cerejota saying, "i do think it should be shorter." and, "I think we should remove the more debatable stuff like signs in protests" make a suggestion for a trimmed down npov version and you might get somewhere. Untwirl (talk) 20:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

My charge that Brunte's removal constitutes disruptive editing is not dependent on the fact that several editors made statements precluding agreement with his removal. Even if nobody had said anything, it would still be so. But as long as you're asking, we have Cerejota and Sean who said that the section should exist in basically the same format as it was, but shorter; As a result of Brunte's removal of information, the section does not exist at all, in the original format or any other. We have Andrew's Concience and RomaC, who said that the section should be expanded, we have myself, and we have (the problematic) Wikifan. Obviously, I can't represent other editors' positions as accurately as they themselves can, which is precisely what consensus-forming discussions are for: so that everyone can express their position. Brunte sought consensus once before for his removal of information and resoundingly failed to gain it. A reasonable editorial approach would be "hmm, I guess there's not so much interest in the idea. Maybe I'll ask again in a few days or weeks". A slightly less reasonable approach would be to immediately open the discussion again: though this smells of forum shopping, it's not so bad. An unreasonable approach (which is the one taken by Brunte) is to open the discussion again immediately, and then, before anyone has time to give their input, to implement the proposed removal. There's no point in opening a discussion if you don't wait for people to respond, unless the discussion is just an alibi. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 20:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I've read the above farmer discussions, but it seems odd, given statements below from the official UN reports. UN 17-18 Jan. report says:

And in the UN 19 Jan. report:

I've added this info on the violations section, but it was removed by User:AgadaUrbanit using the edit summary:"Resoring timeline and removing duplicate January 18". This has to be in the first statement of the violations section since it is the first reported violation. The paragraph is really misleading the readers by stating a pile of Gazans violations on the 20th Jan. before reporting the Jan. 18th incident. The current order does not reflect the reality order and is a POV pushing case. --Darwish07 (talk) 22:02, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

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