| Revision as of 03:04, 10 January 2011 editLihaas (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users77,615 edits →page split [er WP:Article size← Previous edit | Revision as of 04:01, 10 January 2011 edit undoGHcool (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users13,333 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
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| :::::::WORLDwide is not equal to WESTERN at anyrate. wherein the definition of antisemitism is nota WORLDwide either. | :::::::WORLDwide is not equal to WESTERN at anyrate. wherein the definition of antisemitism is nota WORLDwide either. | ||
| ::::::::you are against the grain of consensus here, sto stop addign it back!(] (]) 02:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)). | ::::::::you are against the grain of consensus here, sto stop addign it back!(] (]) 02:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)). | ||
| ::::::::I promise not to revert the article for seven days. | |||
| ::::::::I don't understand the question. Scholars of antisemitism and of Hezbollah all over the world (Middle East, North America, Europe, EVERYWHERE) say that Hezbollah is antisemitic. The article states so and backs it up with sources from all over the entire world without exception. Citing sources saying that Hezbollah is antisemitic is as easy as citing sources saying that the ] is antisemitic. There's really no way around it except through ]. --] (]) 04:01, 10 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == page split per ] == | == page split per ] == | ||
| its already a little long, i propose an equitable split off between the paramiltary and the political party which would also give due credit to the respective parts (the workings of domestic lebanese politics doesnt always have much to do with intl military efforts. (of course summations on each page would still be there, just not details)(] (]) 03:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)). | its already a little long, i propose an equitable split off between the paramiltary and the political party which would also give due credit to the respective parts (the workings of domestic lebanese politics doesnt always have much to do with intl military efforts. (of course summations on each page would still be there, just not details)(] (]) 03:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)). | ||
| :Sounds reasonable. --] (]) 04:01, 10 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
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Image?
So... where did the Hezbollah logo go? Kind of important...
Yeah, an image is neccesary, whether the Flag or some other type of bannerDONT MESS (talk) 19:13, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- You can re-upload it with a fair use rationale. FunkMonk (talk) 19:17, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Who created/uploaded the original flag? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:22, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Some user who doesn't own the copyright. I just uploaded the logo under fair use, so shouldn't be a problem. FunkMonk (talk) 19:32, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Who created/uploaded the original flag? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:22, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Vandalism or huge spelling error
I am a native Arabic speaker and Shi'a Muslim; the way that فاث followers of Shi'a Islam are called in this article is wrong. There is no way in Arabic to spell Shi'a as "Shiites" this is either clear vandalism or a big mistake. I ask whomever responsible for editing this page to please correct this spelling to either Shi'a or Shi'ah or Shi'as. --MSA89 03:07 November 25, 2009
ya i know it is really shameful i mean why did the britsh have to call us this for god's sake.
If there are any more I'll take them out Maz640 (talk) 21:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
- The word looks in English like "shit," but that is not the way English speakers read the word. We read it like "Shee-ites." In English, a word with "-ites" at the end of it means that it is a person who belongs to a group. So an "Israelite" is from the people of Israel, a "Yemenite" is from the people of Yemen, and a "Shiite" is from the people of the Shi'a branch of Islam. I hope this explains it. --GHcool (talk) 22:08, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
- It's also covered in the opening of the Shia Islam article. OhNoitsJamie 22:11, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Manifesto
Talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not general discussions of the subject. Thanks. Celestra (talk) 00:14, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
source
Denial is not very clear in haaretz and the name for the haaretz article is incorrect. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- The denial is as clear as can be, it says 'the Syrian Foreign Ministry said in a statement. "The Syrian Arab Republic denies these fabrications."'. I've corrected the article's title. Don't use primary sources (gov't press releases) when secondary sources in reliabel mainstream media are available. Nick Fitzpatrick (talk) 18:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- You also reverted copy editing: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
"Attacks against the Multinational force in Iraq"
Removed this section, either it is Incorporated into another section or kept out, it does not deserve its own section. It is a claim by one man, and pretty surely just libel. FunkMonk (talk) 19:45, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Women's Rights
I think a section ought to be included on their position regarding women's rights. Exiledone (talk) 16:35, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Be WP:Bold and add it.Lihaas (talk) 07:35, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Racism
I've noticed most of the information in this article seems to be leaning towards Hezbollah being an evil force attacking mercilessly with little or no provocation. In other words, it is leaning to the side that denouces Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Could someone manage to go through and change those parts? For example, when mentioning the 2006 war, it is noted Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel. It does not note, however, that Israel also bombed and shelled many more civilianss than Hezbollah did. If things like this abscence of information (intended to sway the readers opinion) could be removed, this article would be much more "neutral". Just wanted some admin to consider that. If you want to comment to me personally about this, please do it on my talk page. Maz640 (talk) 21:04, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
- Go ahead adn update this if you feel so. Be WP:BoldLihaas (talk) 07:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
It's the other way, this page is so sensitive to the moslem side you can't call a bunch of thugs who hide behind children terrorists.Nbaka is a joke (talk) 19:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting username. But, no, you cant call those "thugs" terrorist. nableezy - 19:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes because the politically correct are so scared to offend people even when Hezbollah or the Palestinian Hamas or other criminal are terrorist you can't call them that.21:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbaka is a joke (talk • contribs)
Nableezy, your sources say that the individuals were convicted for their idiotic behavior. For Hezbollah and Hamas, its standard policy and there are no trials.--Metallurgist (talk) 01:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Update External Links, Please
The "official" sources listed on this page are very old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raywood (talk • contribs) 18:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
- If know the new ones replace 'em. Leave a note here if you must, instead of potential controversy that may arise.Lihaas (talk) 08:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Support
in light of the hezbollah controvesy (particularly out west) there have been some unusual strands of support. One was the Lebanese singer (who's brother was killed some years ago). Such support should be listed perhaps in a subsection somewhere.Lihaas (talk) 07:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Image
I removed this image because the source says "flickr" without any affirmation that it was a Hezbollah rocket that hit it during the war. (not even listed as affirmed by israeli media/government.(Lihaas (talk) 07:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
POV insertion
In the following edit the source for such "antisemitic" statements is made ONLY by POV sources, either other sources be found that dont have a conflict of interest or the explicit caveat as to who did the accusing be added.
- As an aside, the links added about the scouts is not referred in the sources (one could check the source instead of affirming the "addition of sourced content") -- one source doesnt even workLihaas (talk) 20:36, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Is NPR a POV source? What about the New York Times? Both are now cited along with a Ynetnews article. Thanks for your help. --GHcool (talk) 21:43, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Trimming
We haven't done any trimming since 2007 when the article was 101 kb. Now it has grown to 117 kb! Time for more trimming. --GHcool (talk) 22:31, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
- but removals of what? seem arbitrary. some of them are removals of cited info. Trimming for article size doesnt have remove info. A requisite page can be created for certain section. Ie- trimming can shorted the history/ideology pages to another page. Please discuss removals insteadl of "time for trimming." Simply taking out 27k bytes (almost 25%) of the page without a discussion, tag or reason for removing what is POV itself. ( )
- To discuss shortening such a long page we can come upw ith suggestion here. Ideology seems to have its own page so one can move info there, perhaps a new "social services" page? Lihaas (talk) 08:46, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- but removals of what? seem arbitrary. some of them are removals of cited info. Trimming for article size doesnt have remove info. A requisite page can be created for certain section. Ie- trimming can shorted the history/ideology pages to another page. Please discuss removals insteadl of "time for trimming." Simply taking out 27k bytes (almost 25%) of the page without a discussion, tag or reason for removing what is POV itself. ( )
Here are the most compelling changes I made and why I made them:
- The "Foundation" section is sorta wishy-washy and boring and probably should go in the History of Hezbollah article if it should go anywhere. It deserves to be cut completely from this article.
Y - Some of the other stuff in the history section are nitty-gritty details that probably would be more appropriate in the History of Hezbollah. Consider the two consecutive paragraphs in the "After 1990" section beginning with "The process started with the election ..." and "In 1992, Hezbollah decided to participate in election ..." Y
- I copied and pasted much of the stuff I cut from the "Ideology" section into the Ideology of Hezbollah article. This includes the 2009 manifesto update and the entire "Shia Islamism" section. It can and should be cut from this main article. Y
- This article seriously beats a dead horse about Hezbollah's opposition to the existence of Israel in the "attitudes about Israel" section. I practically cut the section in half without missing anything vital. All of the stuff I cut is pasted into Ideology of Hezbollah. Y
- The paragraph on Magen Avraham Synagogue is so minor as to be almost completely irrelevant to an overall understanding of Hezbollah.
- The long, naked blockquote in the "Organization" section can and should be cut. It tells us nothing that the surrounding paragraphs don't tell us.
- Lihaas's suggestion regarding creating a "social services" article has merit. There should be no more than 3 paragraphs about Hezbollah's social services in this overview article. Y
- The Singapore sentence is pretty minor and can be cut.
- The paragraph beginning with "Nasrallah denied any ..." can/should be cut. The source it is cited to sucks anyway. Y
- The "Conflict with Israel" is overly cited. Do we really need more than one source per bullet point? Y
- The "Targeting policy" section can be trimmed in half. --GHcool (talk) 19:12, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- on the issue of the History moves, as opposed to removing sourced info we can move it to the other pages as you said. Y
- per ideology moves your edit summaries didnt indicate why nor did the talk, if that is placed somewhere then i agree with your cutting length. Y
- The Synagogue section is not minor. For the all the info and section concerning "Hezbollah's attitude to jews and judaism" (which is negative views this is a very NPOV addition to the other side.
- per #s 6-11 (although weve agreed, i think, on #7 to move to a new page) dont explain why the cut on sourced info. Issues of "minor" relevance are subjective to an encyclopaedia that is to inform. So i disagree here. Although # of sources can be cut if the 1 or so are good. With the "sucky source" a requisite tag can be added, if nothing is forthcoming then it can go. Per the "targeting policy" why can it be trimmed in half to remove info? Y(Lihaas (talk) 04:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- on the issue of the History moves, as opposed to removing sourced info we can move it to the other pages as you said.
- I agree with all the suggested edits. Marokwitz (talk) 07:24, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
I still think it needs more trimming, and any section moe than 15-20 lines or 3 parragraphs may want to be summarized, then made into it's own article. 101kb is way too big. ANY article expansion more than just a couple words should be discussed here first, too.Maz640 (talk) 00:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Call Hezbollah attacks terrorism
Hezbollah is not a nation why not call their missle attacks hiding behind civillian terrorist attacks?Unicorn76 (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Under that reasoning, shouldn't Israeli attacks on civilians in lebanon also be called terrorist attacks? they killed more civilians, and attacked hospitals and U.N. marked buildings. Look up Qana massacreMaz640 (talk) 00:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- The difference that your beloved terrorists do it on purpose —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.245.167 (talk) 22:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
It's kinda hard to " accidentally" bomb innocent civilians. Are you saying the murders of innocent civilians, the deaths of thousand of children, are justified by the killing of 42 Israelis in office buildings in cities? That because of those 42, Israel has a clear shot to bomb hospitals and homes, villages and even UN marked buildings? If that is your justification then there is something wrong with you. Then again, the US went into a war for the horrible attack of 9/11. So I see the precedent, but even the US didn't mercilessly attack well marked hospitals, especially those marked by an international coalition as safe havens. What is your justification of that? Did Israel really have justification? Was it not "on purpose". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maz640 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
There is too little mention of Hezbollah terrorists attacks on Israel. It's reason for existance. That should be in the first part of the lead.Nbaka is a joke (talk)` —Preceding undated comment added 18:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC).
Terrorism involves intentional killing of civilians. Israel can kill 500 civilians and Hezbollah can kill only 3, but only Hezbollah is the terrorist group because they target civilians; Israel does not (if they did, the death toll would be in the tens of thousands).
Also, why is this in WikiProject Terrorism if its "not" a terrorist group?--Metallurgist (talk) 01:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- So is Irgun, for example. FunkMonk (talk) 02:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Israel withdrowal in not true
Israel has NOT withdrawn from Lebanon. The Blue Zone is on Lebanese land forced upon by the outside countries that have nothing to care about. The burden of proof falls on you to provide your source that the sovereign land of Lebanon is completely free from the Israeli infestation.
Khannez (talk) 10:08, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
- On June 16, 2000, the UN confirmed that Israel had indeed withdrawn its forces from all of Lebanon, in accordance with United Nations Security Council Resolution 425. Marokwitz (talk) 10:15, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Citation needed for support Iran and Syria to Hezbollah
Hezbollah (Arabic: حزب الله ḥizbu-illāh(i), literally "Party of God") is a Shia paramilitary group and political party based in Lebanon. It is regarded as a resistance movement throughout much of the Arab and Muslim worlds, and is supported by Iran and Syria. Realdreamsplus (talk) 00:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- See the section titled Funding. We try to avoid too many citations in the lead. ← George 03:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think it would probably best to add this as a citation to the lead. To reduce clutter, I think the best solution is to unify multiple footnotes using bullets. Marokwitz (talk) 15:17, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Supreme deliciousness deleted with no explanation
Tendentious editing, his edits should be reverted. Those categories are relevant. 74.198.9.183 (talk) 21:49, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- We have discussed them before, and only GHschool kept adding them. They are not relevant, their presence is pure Israeli POV. FunkMonk (talk) 05:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- As the article clearly states, this so-called "Israeli POV" is shared by the US, Australia, Canada, the UK, Argentina, France, Italy, Germany, and the Netherlands. Indeed, these categories fit a worldwide understanding of the topic and are entirely appropriate for Misplaced Pages. --GHcool (talk) 22:36, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Those are ten countries you mentioned and half of them are not official views of those country's. To ad these three cats you will have to show worldview sources saying Hezbollah is an Islamic terrorist organization and that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization in Lebanon, and a reliable source showing its connected to "Islam and antisemitism". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:17, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- The antisemitism cat was only added due to some questionable allegations, which were later refuted, attributed some remarks to Hassan Nasrallah. As for "terrorist", see WP:TERRORIST FunkMonk (talk) 23:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- As the article makes clear, there is a worldwide consensus from experts in the study of antisemitism that Hezbollah fits the mold; thus Category:Islam and antisemitism is fitting. As for the "terrorist" categories, is FunkMonk suggesting that all of the listings of organizations under Category:Islamic terrorism (such as Al-Qaeda and Hamas) are breaches of the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style? Hezbollah is the second most famous/successful Islamic terror organization in the world. It is the poster child of Shia radicalism and political violence. Not listing it under Category:Islamic terrorism would be denial. --GHcool (talk) 00:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- Opinion of few number of countries doesn't result in International view of a matter. Countries of the world are independent and have equal weight in their view points.--Aliwiki (talk) 01:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- Worldwide view? pelase cite that worldwide view that is not clearly POV.
- WORLDwide is not equal to WESTERN at anyrate. wherein the definition of antisemitism is nota WORLDwide either.
- you are against the grain of consensus here, sto stop addign it back!(Lihaas (talk) 02:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)).
- I promise not to revert the article for seven days.
- I don't understand the question. Scholars of antisemitism and of Hezbollah all over the world (Middle East, North America, Europe, EVERYWHERE) say that Hezbollah is antisemitic. The article states so and backs it up with sources from all over the entire world without exception. Citing sources saying that Hezbollah is antisemitic is as easy as citing sources saying that the Ku Klux Klan is antisemitic. There's really no way around it except through denialism. --GHcool (talk) 04:01, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- Opinion of few number of countries doesn't result in International view of a matter. Countries of the world are independent and have equal weight in their view points.--Aliwiki (talk) 01:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- As the article makes clear, there is a worldwide consensus from experts in the study of antisemitism that Hezbollah fits the mold; thus Category:Islam and antisemitism is fitting. As for the "terrorist" categories, is FunkMonk suggesting that all of the listings of organizations under Category:Islamic terrorism (such as Al-Qaeda and Hamas) are breaches of the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style? Hezbollah is the second most famous/successful Islamic terror organization in the world. It is the poster child of Shia radicalism and political violence. Not listing it under Category:Islamic terrorism would be denial. --GHcool (talk) 00:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- The antisemitism cat was only added due to some questionable allegations, which were later refuted, attributed some remarks to Hassan Nasrallah. As for "terrorist", see WP:TERRORIST FunkMonk (talk) 23:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Those are ten countries you mentioned and half of them are not official views of those country's. To ad these three cats you will have to show worldview sources saying Hezbollah is an Islamic terrorist organization and that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization in Lebanon, and a reliable source showing its connected to "Islam and antisemitism". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:17, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- As the article clearly states, this so-called "Israeli POV" is shared by the US, Australia, Canada, the UK, Argentina, France, Italy, Germany, and the Netherlands. Indeed, these categories fit a worldwide understanding of the topic and are entirely appropriate for Misplaced Pages. --GHcool (talk) 22:36, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
page split per WP:Article size
its already a little long, i propose an equitable split off between the paramiltary and the political party which would also give due credit to the respective parts (the workings of domestic lebanese politics doesnt always have much to do with intl military efforts. (of course summations on each page would still be there, just not details)(Lihaas (talk) 03:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)).
- Sounds reasonable. --GHcool (talk) 04:01, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
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