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Revision as of 12:10, 2 October 2013

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Move request 2

Note: !votes and comments on this proposal to move the article belong in the appropriate sections below.

Note also: this is a Requested Move, not a Request for Comment. It is not expected that a Requested Move be phrased in a neutral format: instead, it is expected that the proposer endorse the move. It is the responsibility of people reviewing the request to review the evidence and form their own opinion.

Bradley Manning → Chelsea Manning – As proposed by the closers of the last debate and agreed by subsequent consensus, I am starting the new move discussion and proposing that we move the article currently located at Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning, for the following reasons:

• On August 22, 2013, the subject of this article announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name.
• Most reliable sources started using this name within a week. At this point (30 September 2013), the overwhelming majority of reliable sources use Chelsea Manning when referring to this person.
• Many editors have expressed a concern that using the former name of a transgendered person—that she has requested not be used—as the article title, is offensive and causes harm to that person.

Relevant sources on usage in reliable sources as well as relevant policies and guidelines, contributed by various users over the last few weeks, are cited below. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion guidelines

Relevant content policies and guidelines

Evidence

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section below, followed by an explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a substitute for discussion, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation. Responses to statements made in the survey sections should be restricted to the discussion section.

Support move to "Chelsea Manning"

1. Strong support. This seems to be the most common name now, and articles on other transgendered persons are at their identifying name to satisfy BLP and IDENTITY -- save this one, an omission that should be corrected. Dralwik| 20:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
2. Strong Support. I am not an expert on policy, but I think respect is important. I think disrespecting her clearly-stated identity would encourage cissexism, risking harm to trans people, and would open a can of worms about when to respect people's identities and when not to. Ananiujitha (talk) 20:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
3. Support per BLP, because this is the name she has announced for herself, and per V and COMMONNAME, because it appears to be the name most used by reliable sources since the announcement. SlimVirgin 20:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
4. Support. First, to address WP:BLP policy, some things are mandated by BLP policy, when something is mandated by BLP policy, BLP policy trumpts pretty much all other concerns, and only once the BLP issue is resolved, will other policies come in to play. The classic example of such a mandate is that a negative statement about a living person must be properly sourced, or it must be removed. Other points in WP:BLP carry considerable weight, but are not mandates. The latter covers the language such as the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment in the introductory paragraphs, and that human dignity and personal privacy be taken into account from the Foundation statement. That language does not mandate a specific result, only that things be considered when exercising our editorial judgement. In my opinion, WP:BLP does not mandate a result here. Nonetheless, we should give strong weight to the non-mandatory language. In the case of a person who has changed names as a result of gender identity, their wishes, when clearly expressed, should carry considerable weight. While in specific cases there may be facts that change the calculus, in most cases the wishes of the subject should outweigh WP:Article Titles and WP:COMMONNAME. While we generally prefer to follow the language used by most reliable sources, there is a good reason not to here, and the alternative is also supported by reliable sources, albeit fewer. I think number of people where suspicious of the timing here, it occurring right at the peak of Manning's notoriety. However, as time has gone on, and we look deeper at the question, it has become increasingly clear that the revelation regarding Manning's gender identity is legitimate. As such, there is nothing here that would change that default calculus, and the article should be moved to Chelsea Manning. Monty₈₄₅ 20:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
5. Support per WP:COMMONNAME more sources are using Chelsea now. However WP:BLP does not apply and as noted before by another editor there have been good faith opinions but no real evidence to support the claim. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
6. Support per WP:COMMONNAME - the obvious trend among sources is to use Chelsea. Additionally, BLP - while somewhat vague on this point - would, in my opinion, tend to back such a move. Kiralexis (talk) 20:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
7. Support per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY, and because this is the name that the majority of sources appear now to be using. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
8. Support per MOS:IDENTITY, WP:COMMONNAME and human decency. There will be no reader confusion with a redirect from Bradley Manning - David Gerard (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
9. Support per WP:COMMONNAME Iselilja (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
10. Support. In contrast to the situation at the time of the original move, most sources are now using "Chelsea" in reports of current events. Our normal practice of respecting people's self-identification in the absence of serious and meaningful doubts as to its sincerity or accuracy (i.e. that mysterious "spirit" of WP:BLP) is no longer in conflict with established sources.—Kww(talk) 20:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
11. Support. Chelsea Manning is a woman, and must be treated like one. Christine Jorgensen similarly has an article titled as such, not as George Jorgensen, which is just a re-direct. Georgia guy (talk) 20:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
12. Support as per WP:COMMONNAME, but not per WP:BLP. It is not a violation of BLP to use "Bradley Manning" as the title, but we should recognize that most sources have adopted "Chelsea Manning" as the preferred name. Edge3 (talk) 21:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
13. Support, naturally per BLP. It's her name and we are only causing harm by misgendering her under her former name. It's shameful to have taken this long to correct the title but let's get it done now. Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
14. Support per WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:IDENTITY. If she identifies herself as a woman and wishes to undergo hormone treatment tand surgery to legitimately become one, she is a woman. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 21:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
15. Support; the reasoning and justification for doing so is overwhelming to my eyes. Andrew Gray (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
16. Support per BLP and because so long as a redirect is in place no confusion will result, while leaving it as it is is an implicit insult to any trans* people reading Misplaced Pages, and where possible we should strive to minimise such insults to marginalised groups. Stealth Munchkin (talk) 21:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
17. Support. With gratitude to editors tracking name usage in reliable sources, which indicate that, per WP:COMMONNAME and,WP:MOSIDENTITY. and because Chelsea Manning is a woman, her article should be appropriately renamed. I, JethroBT 21:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
18. Support per WP:DIGNITY. It is insulting to title an article with a name the subject rejects. We should always use a subject's preferred name on their biography when, as in this case from day one, doing so won't make the article difficult to find. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
19. Support. The list above of news sources that are currently using "Chelsea" ought to settle the issue even for people who have a range of different views on the general question, I think. - Dank (push to talk) 21:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
20. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, as most sources are now using Chelsea, and per WP:BLP, which provides a reasonable basis for using her name, even if the policy does not expressly require it. Gobōnobō 21:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
21. Support, despite the disruptive "I wanna be first" start to this RM which completely disregarded the hard work of all of the editors who have been working for a month to put this RM together. Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DIGNITY, there is no reason to hold the article at Bradley. Redirects are cheap.--v/r - TP 21:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
22. Support RS are using both Chelsea Manning and Bradley Manning. From my owns analysis of Google News, I judge Chelsea Manning to be ahead in sources but (surprisingly to me) not vastly. If this were on another topic, I'd say wait a while longer to give sources more time to settle. However, I find WP:DIGNITY to be compelling in this case. As clarified in the previous RM, there are no WP:IDENTITY or WP:BLP issues with the article being at the title Bradley Manning. However, there is little benefit now to the encyclopaedia in keeping it there. Manning herself has said she wants to be called as Chelsea. And the majority of sources appear to be to be on the "Chelsea" side of the question. So out of respect for the subject, given that we can see now that that's how sources are leaning, it's time to move. --Tóraí (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
23. Support I have to say I really don't even understand opposition to this. If Jim Smith changed his name to John Jones, why would anybody oppose changing his article name? The redirect will still exist, so opposition cannot be based on the possibility of confusion. If someone got married and changed names, would we insist her article stay under her maiden name? If we didn't like that someone with a traditional name like Clay changed his last name to Ali, would we block a move? This discussion strikes me as bizarre in the extreme. μηδείς (talk) 21:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
24. Support for the all of the reasons it should have been done a month ago. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
25. Support I think the U.S. law principle of strict scrutiny for rules that cause potential harm to disadvantaged groups is the simplest way to look at this. Adapting the principles of that would require us to have compelling encyclopedic reasons, avoid overbroad solutions, and use the least damaging means to achieve the encyclopedic ends. Is there a strong encyclopedic benefit to making clear that "Chelsea Manning" is the same person as the "Bradley Manning" that all the older news, from before she came out, reported on? Yes, so mentioning it comes under a compelling encyclopedic interest. However, having the page at Bradley is both an overbroad solution, and causes potential harm unnecessarily, by passing an editorial judgement that a transwoman should officially be known under her male name. The encyclopedic purpose is served nearly or equally as well by having the page at Chelsea Manning, and stating in the first sentence that she was formerly known as "Bradley Manning", and having a redirect from "Bradley Manning" to bring in anyone who has not heard about her coming out. As such, having the page at Bradley Manning is overbroad and fails to use the least damaging means to the encyclopedic ends, and must be rejected. Adam Cuerden 22:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
26. Support 100% common name and although not strictly BLP i feel a person should be known by what they wish more than ever in cases of transgender.Blethering Scot 22:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
27. Support. It's been so long, I've forgotten anything about who Chelsea Manning is or why she is not called Bradley, so I'm just following the herd, really. Please discount my vote. For the record, though, it's absolutely obvious that there's a BLP issue with calling a person by a name they have taken a decision not to be known by. This should be noted by the closer. Formerip (talk) 22:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
28. Support primarily as an ethical position (so policy-wise channel that via BLP or via the "problematic names" language in WP:AT, but it's a justification not a reason). Chris Smowton (talk) 23:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
29. Support It is the person's name now - does not seem like there is much to dispute. --Varnent (talk) 23:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
30. Support I agree there is no BLP concern with the title and that the MOS does not override policy, but it does seem clear that reliable sources are leaning heavily towards Chelsea Manning being used for the common name as I suspected they would. Whether it is truly at the moment where it is the most common name or not, I see no reason to prolong the inevitable. Unless he opts for another name or reneges, there is no reason to not use Chelsea.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
31. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, although I also think WP:BLP applies in this situation since disregarding a person's gender change in an article title is disrespectful and could have real negative effects on that person. Kaldari (talk) 23:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
32. Support Chelsea per WP:AT, esp WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA. Reject WP:BLP as reason. Explanation below.

    • On August 22, 2013, Manning announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name. We thus have clear documentation of the subject's preference - which is normally not closely considered, but should be nonetheless taken account of as one factor for the discussion.
    • In the weeks following the announcement, the bulk of reliable sources started using the name Chelsea on first use to identify the subject (while still explaining that this was a person previously known as Bradley).

    • Per WP:COMMONNAME, when a name change occurs, we should give more priority to sources *after* the name change than before. With that in mind, the evidence below was on use AFTER August 22. In terms of pure numbers, there will likely *always* be more articles that refer to Manning as Bradley, since so much coverage was generated before and during the trial, vs after it. This should not prevent us from considering a move, however.

    • In addition, several major news sources, including NY Times, AP, TIME, and NPR publicly stated their editorial guidelines for using "Chelsea" to refer to the subject. It was worth noting that both NY Times and NPR stumbled early on, and struggled with many of the same issues Wikipedians did in the earlier discussion, but finally decided to address Manning as Chelsea and use the female pronouns.
    • Another change of note was the Encyclopedia Brittanica, which changed the title of their article on September 5, 2013. Encyclopedias are different than news sources, so the fact that they changed is significant.
    • At this point, as one of the small group of editors building sources for this move request, I have become very familiar with media usage of Bradley and Chelsea, and have watched many sources change before my eyes. There are still exceptions - for example AFP, which is one of the major wire services, has been found to use both, even though an email from an AFP editor claimed they were going to use Chelsea. We also saw instances of AP-issued stories being modified, changing "Chelsea" to Bradley. I have noticed a pattern whereby sources which have signed on to the use of Chelsea may nonetheless use Bradley in ancillary articles that only mention the subject - which would explain why you may still see hits with "Bradley" in those sources.
    • Many editors have invoked BLP. I believe BLP is not a reason to move this page, as the name Bradley is well sourced in reliable sources and it has not been demonstrated that having "Bradley" in the title is somehow significantly more harmful than having "Bradley" in the lede, infobox, photos, running text, or redirects. If "Bradley" was a BLP issue, then the word should be excised, but instead we welcome it everywhere. Thus, while BLP does apply to titles in general, BLP cannot be used as a reason to move this one.
    • In close cases, COMMONNAME is notoriously hard to determine. The evidence gathered above, while not overwhelmingly in favor of Chelsea, is nonetheless solid - but it's not yet a slam dunk, esp given major wire services like AFP, Reuters and UPI have not demonstrated a clear preference, and some "Chelsea" sources have been seen to slip back to Bradley (w/o mention of Chelsea) in ancillary articles, thus suggesting "Bradley" is still common, at least for that writer. Overall, Chelsea wins for COMMONNAME, but what tips the scale here are the other criteria, per WP:AT, and the subject's preference. Those criteria are as follows:

    • Recognizability – Chelsea is now, arguably, as recognizable or moreso than Bradley, due to the rapid switch in the media
    • Naturalness – Bradley is still probably a better fit for this, since most searches will still be on Bradley Bradley vs Chelsea search trends
    • Precision – Chelsea and Bradley are equally precise
    • Conciseness – Chelsea and Bradley are equally concise
    • Consistency - A tally of trans* people's articles found that the vast majority were at their most recent name. In the name of consistency, people would thus expect to find a trans* person's article at their most recent name.
    • Finally, we have clearly expressed preferences of the subject, and in the name of balancing potential offense to the subject with an encyclopedic title, we don't have to choose between the two any longer, as Chelsea works just fine. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

    It seems you've failed to see the irony of your above justification for not using BLP as part of your support rationale: "...we have clearly expressed preferences of the subject, and in the name of balancing potential offense to the subject with an encyclopedic title, we don't have to choose between the two any longer..." — if I am not mistaken, that is the very spirit of BLP. Kurtis 01:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    well perhaps the spirit moved me. Nonetheless, if the sources were flipped the other way, with 40% for Chelsea, I would have stil !voted for the move - but if the sources were only 5% Chelsea, probably not. Many have proposed BLP as a trump card here, and stated that irregardless of sources, BLP trumps commonname. I disagree. The feelings of the subject do count, but so does our responsibility to neutrally report facts from RS.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    I supported the move but I think it's incorrect to state it's the COMMONNAME in any meaningful way (or BLP violation). The press still has to address the reader with a "formerly Bradley Manning" to acquaint them with the subject. That's a defacto "we are switching from the common name to this new name." Only people particularly tuned in to the name change are aware of the issue. It remains to be seen if the public outside interested WP editors and the transgender community will ever clearly adopt "Chelsea Manning" as the most recognizable name. Most people don't keep up with the personal stuff. If in six months, the majority of articles have dropped the "formerly Bradley Manning" monicker, or start using "Chelsea" in tangential articles, we will know where the population stands. --DHeyward (talk) 22:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    Well you both agree here that a title doesn't need the most common name every time, so I think you're actually quite close on this interpretation. __Elaqueate (talk) 11:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

33. Support RS are taking up the new name. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 23:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
34. Support – Per WP:COMMONNAME. The sources have largely gone this way, we should too. I would also say that I don't believe WP:BLP applies here and strongly disagree with the suggestions that an individual changing their name requires the article title be changed as well. There's nothing wrong with taking that into consideration, and in Chelsea's case here, I believe it would have tipped the scales of my opinion if the sources' choices had not been as strong as they are, but there are plenty of possible rename cases (where the name change in question has nothing to do with those individuals' gender identities) where doing so could produce a suboptimal or even bad result. Egsan Bacon (talk) 00:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
35. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, common sense, etc. Legoktm (talk) 00:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
36. Support per MOS:IDENTITY and common decency.-gadfium 00:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
37. Support. First, because the source material has clearly moved in this direction. Second, even though I accept that BLP does not mandate that we do this, I think that the spirit of BLP (or WP:DIGNITY if one prefers) points us in the direction that this is the right editorial choice to make. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
38. Support—it is just the right thing to do at this time per policy and the MOS. Imzadi 1979 → 00:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
39. Support I did a search and found out that Editors were debating Manning's identity change on Misplaced Pages back in 2012. So, this name change did not come out of the blue. I think if you look at transgender individuals on WP, it's clear that we honor their sexual identity decisions. This is not an isolated case and it should be handled like other transgender people's articles. Liz 01:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
40. Chelsea identifies herself as a female. Gender identity is not defined by one's sexual organs. Kurtis 01:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
41. Support because of WP:IAR and WP:HARM. "Bradley Manning" is not a BLP violation. "Bradley Manning" is the COMMONNAME known by 95% of the population and why every news article that mentions Chelsea has to introduce her using "Bradley Manning". Whether that will diminish is yet to be known but today, the common name is "Bradley" as the press is in transition. Moreover, news article that aren't specifically about Chelsea Manning (i.e. the "Coombs announcement interview" week articles and last weeks "Coomb's tours Leavenworth" articles) , invariably use "Bradley Manning" when word count is more important (i.e. google news search the last week for "snowden manning -chelsea" returns numerous, post anouncement articles about whistleblowers that ignore Mannings preferred name and her gender including news sources with MOS statements. It remains to be seen whether articles that indirectly mention Manning will use Chelsea or Bradley or the current "Chelsea, formerly Bradley, Manning." The only real reason to move now is that the encyclopedic value lost by using Chelsea is outweighed by the perceived harm. All of our policies and guidelines for content say "Bradley Manning" and rather than torture ourselves into fitting this move into a policy that rejects it, it's simply easier to IAR and move it due to harm. Create the redirect (or dab) from Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning so that 95% of our readers can find it. --DHeyward (talk) 02:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
42. Strong support. I do believe WP:BLP is an issue, although I acknowledge other editors feel differently. Regardless, WP:DIGNITY, WP:HARM, MOS:IDENTITY and WP:COMMONNAME all support the move. I agree with DHeyward that the cost of the move is non-existent and therefore outweighed by any prospect of harm. Sue Gardner (talk) 02:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
43. Support because it's the right thing to do, regardless of whatever bureaucratic acronyms we choose to wrap it in. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
44. Support per WP:COMMONNAME given RS usage but also WP:BLP (& other policies as above). AnonNep (talk) 04:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
45. Support. Looking over the evidence, it's immediately clear the direction all the sources are moving is aligned with this person's preference. Great job collecting all the evidence, to everyone who did that. -WPGA2345- 06:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
46. Support. The media sources I'm seeing all now use "Chelsea". ciphergoth (talk) 06:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
47. Strong Support per MOS:IDENTITY, WP:DIGNITY, WP:HARM and WP:COMMONNAME. Commentary removed pursuant to discretionary sanctions. Please do not restore. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC) Arkady Rose (talk) 06:57, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    I've already posted a longer statement to your talk page, but I am extremely offended by this characterization of my comments, clear violations of WP:NPA and WP:AGF. Failing a redress, I intend to the next steps outlined in WP:DR CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    @User:Arkady Rose, please review the guidance in the above section on responding to offensive language. bd2412 T 14:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

48. Support. It is clear that by now almost all sources are using Chelsea now, with the notable exception of CNN, and BBC being rather vague on the issue. Still, I would say from anecdotical evidence, the most common name in use is still Bradley. That there are no sources that don't use the Chelsea exclusively, but always include that Chelsea used to be known as Bradley speaks clearly that they think people will be confused, or will not understand who this Chelsea is when they don't explain her former name and identity. If our only responsibility were ease of use, Bradley would be the better choice. But it's not. We have a strong impact on real people, and using the name Bradley is denying the identity of the subject. This doesn't only impact Manning, but also many other transgendered individuals that see their identity being denied by arguably the single most influential source on the internet: us. This causes serious harm, and we're not here to do harm. If we're not here to do the right thing, I have no idea why we are here in the first place. That is not to say that Misplaced Pages should be used for activism. Had we been the only ones to use Chelsea, it could been seen as an activist choice, and the discussion would be far harder, with far more things to balance, but the fact of the matter is that we're not. In the end, having the article at Bradley has very few things going for it: The inmeasurable 'word on the street', and that when she was at the height of her fame/infamity, she was known as Bradley. I find these arguments to be exceedingly weak for determining the article location, especially when compared to the arguments in favor of Chelsea. Again, almost all sources now use Chelsea, and they do that for roughly the abovementioned reasons. So should we. Not because others use Chelsea as primary identification, but for the same reasons they choose to use Chelsea. all these reasons are currently policy here. If people mistakenly think that pointing to policy is a more valid argument than making the actual points (feel sorry for them), here is some acronym soup for you: WP:BLP WP:HARM WP:COMMONNAME WP:DIGNITY WP:AT. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 08:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
49. Support - Per the strong suggestions made in MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP that we weigh the considerations of encyclopedicity and humanity when making content decisions. The WP:COMMONNAME balance is tipping rapidly, and a cheap redirect takes care of any issues with making sure readers can find what they're looking for. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
50. Support - Based on WP:COMMONAME. Whilst the media switch to Chelsea isn't as convincing as I would like due to the dearth of articles post-announcement which are unrelated to the announcement itself, I certainly think there's enough RS usage to justify the move at this point. I appreciate some of the arguments made in opposition to the move, but based on the evidence and precedents, I don't think there's anything strong enough there to make it worth a fight over. --Jeude54cartes (talk) 09:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
51. It's call basic human decency. KTC (talk) 10:06, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
52. Support - WP:COMMONNAME, MOS:IDENTITY, and WP:BLP continue to align to support the move, just as they did when the article was moved back. Morwen (talk) 10:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
53. Support The moment some minor member of the British upper classes becomes a Lord or a Lady, or marries off to some ghastly in-bred Royal, we are perfectly happy to shunt their article over to "Lord Somesuch of Whatnot" or the "Duke of Lower Miscellanea" (in the case of Kate Middleton, we had Jimmy Wales hovering over the move button during the wedding ceremony!). The moment someone gets married and drops their maiden name in favour of their husband's name, we are more than happy to shunt their article over without demanding 150 news articles and a signed form in triplicate. When someone asks that they be referred to more casually—Suzie rather than Suzanne, Bob rather than Robert, Dick rather than Richard etc.—people generally comply. It is only when the name change is accompanied by a change in gender that everyone freaks out and starts imposing arbitrary standards—legal documentation, proof that everybody on the planet has started using the new name, maybe even (photographic?) proof that the person has undergone gender transition surgery. This strange exceptionalist standard is in itself rather shoddy treatment of trans people and enforcement of said standards seems to be inhumane to me. Under WP:BLP and WP:IAR, we should try our hardest to respect people's self-identity on matters like sexuality, religion and, yes, gender identity. —Tom Morris (talk) 11:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    • I agree this is the essence of the case. Well said! Josh Gorand (talk) 12:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Though it appears Lauren Bush is at her birth name as her article title, not the amusing married name of Lauren Lauren, though at one point the article was at Lauren Bush Lauren. *Dan T.* (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    • @Tom Morris: Casting aspersions on the motives of those opposed to the Chelsea Manning title (now or before) is not helpful. It is not at all true that we immediately reflect name changes in titles for every non-transgender individual; Lily Allen and Cat Stevens are examples of individuals whose professional -- and legal -- names were changed (Allen changed her professional name back last month though) whose articles were not moved accordingly. And while there are examples of rapid moves (like with Kate Middleton), others (like Ron Artest), dare I say most others, undergo move requests. Please don't imply prejudice on the part of those opposed to the proposed title. -- tariqabjotu 22:06, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
      • I didn't suggest anything about the motives of anyone. I only questioned the standard some people are using, not the morals of the contributors using said standard. I certainly did not suggest that there was prejudice on the part of opposers. Of course, if people read my comment and see in themselves the spectre of bigotry and prejudice, that is not me pointing the finger but a reflection of their own conscience. —Tom Morris (talk) 08:05, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
54. Support per WP:COMMONNAME (per number of sources using Chelsea vs Bradley in recent usage), WP:BLP (per WP:DIGNITY WP:HARM), and WP:SNOW with the including WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY, and WP:IAR for those arguing process (like ArbCom) over speediness for getting the article right. Last ofcourse is WP:IDENTITY, if that still counts. Belorn (talk) 13:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
55. Support, per my reasoning at the last discussion (WP:COMMONNAME and WP:BLP). namenot (talk/contribs) (formerly Insulam Simia) 14:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
56. Support. Even if I didn't still think that it was right to use a transgender individual's correct name as an article title, more and better sources are using "Chelsea" now. (Obviously look at the list of sources that use one over the other, but also just look at the list of sources that have made statements about which to use: high-quality news reporting like the NYT, AP, NPR, etc. vs. conservative rag the Washington Times.) I find the arguments that the sources used "Bradley" in their coverage before she came out rather inane, because, well, yes, newspapers don't employ clairvoyants. Sources also used to call JFK Airport "Idlewild." –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
57. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:MOSIDENTITY, WP:DIGNITY, Misplaced Pages:Avoiding harm, and the lack of opposing arguments which I find persuasive. Most media sources use the name "Chelsea". Arguments that notable actions happened when the used a different name are not persuasive to me because there is nearly unanimous precedent that persons who get married and have a name change have their new names recognized a they wish by all media including Misplaced Pages, and this name change is an analogous situation. Enough time has passed to bring light to all available arguments and the weight of the evidence is on naming the article "Chelsea". I am happy for the pause to consider the move. That time was well spent. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
58. Support article move/rename: 1) Respect the subject's right to self-identify. 2) Trangenderism is a mental/emotional identity, not a physical state. Outward appearance and legal status are medically irrelevant, and changes to such depend on an individual's access to healthcare and court filings. 3) When writing or speaking about a transgender person, we are writing/reading or speaking/hearing in the present. Even when referring in the present to the person's past, their pronoun and name as they are currently known should be used. This is the opinion of the American Psychological Association, American Medical Association, Associated Press, GLAAD, Transgender Law Center, and Human Rights Campaign. 4) Precedence exists in other articles, such as Chaz Bono, Lana Wachowski. 5) If there's a parallel question regarding religious, artistic, or other name changes, I don't have an opinion there. 6) Redirects are inexpensive. Thank you, Startswithj (talk) 15:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
59. Weak Support I havn't seen any particualy strong arguments either way and in that case we should default to causing the least harm to the subject. CombatWombat42 (talk) 15:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
60. weak support Obi-Wan Kenobi made a decent argument that COMMONNAME supports this move, but that the BLP argument is weak, and I'm inclined to agree with that logic. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
61. The common name is "Chelsea", not "Bradley"; the article should reflect that. I agree with David Gerard that there will be no confusion. Acalamari 16:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
62. Support as in the last RM but with COMMONNAME at worst being a tie. Hobit (talk) 17:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
63. Support per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY, and because the majority of sources appear now to be using this as the name of the person. The person's stated gender identity is sufficient, and proof of legal name change or medical evidence of gender surgery are not required. Edison (talk) 18:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
64. Support, it is inevitably what she will be known as. Still would have suggested she pick "Peyton". Torquemama007 (talk) 18:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
65. Support MOS:IDENTITY, WP:BLP, WP:COMMONNAME, but mainly just basic human decency. Katie R (talk) 19:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
66. Weak Support While I'm not 100% convinced on the grounds of WP:COMMONNAME given CNN's position, the invective I've seen concering the matter has, on reflection, persuaded me WP:DIGNITY and Misplaced Pages:Avoiding harm are realistic concerns. Dolescum (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
67. Support I do love that WP:COMMONNAME is being cited regularly to support both sides...perhaps we need to revisit WP:COMMONNAMEDkriegls (talk to me!) 22:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    That's why my !vote was COMMONAME++ - since COMMONNAME isn't quite a slam dunk yet, but it's close enough that we can bring in other concerns to tip the scales clearly in one way. The point made below, that in 2 years, people writing about this may use Bradley, is a good one, and we should be prepared to move it back if that truly happens.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

68. Support is respectful to wishes of subject of article, which I think better adhere to spirit of WP:BLP though I am not well versed in policy for speak to how adherent to letter of policy. Lakdfhia (talk) 03:37, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
69. Support - The rationale behind the first proposed move and the admin's closure were correct. Now Chelsea is the common name so we should waste no time moving it. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 07:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
70. Support Now makes sense to me. Taylor Trescott - + _{my edits} 10:53, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
71. Support per COMMONNAME and the fact that using Bradley could reasonably be perceived as pejorative by some. Space simian (talk) 12:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Oppose move to "Chelsea Manning"

1. Oppose on COMMONNAME, Strong Oppose on any other basis. - There is no consensus as of yet among reliable sources of what title to use for Ms. Manning and in the absence of clear guidance from reliable sources, we should err with the stable title of Bradley Manning. In addition, Bradley Manning is the title used during the entirety of the period on which she was notable and WP:AT explicitly states that we have to "remember that the choice of title is not dependent on whether a name is "right" in a moral or political sense." Chelsea Manning would not be a terrible title for the article, but under WP:AT's description for what makes a good Misplaced Pages article, it falls short under the first pillar, recognition, relative to Bradley Manning, as she has been described for years.
   I strongly oppose on the basis of BLP or MOSIDENTITY. The individual under question was already noted as Bradley Manning for a very long period of time, so there's no outing or privacy issue and she's not notability for being a transgendered woman, but for being involved in a prominent espionage case. I don't see MOSIDENTITY as applicable here - even ignoring that its applicability to the situation is in dispute, a guideline cannot supercede a policy, that of WP:AT
   Note that this is only for the *title* of the article. I will strongly oppose any attempts to remove "she" or "her" or, where applicable "Chelsea" because unlike the title policy, these guidelines are not superceded by an applicable policy.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 20:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

   You mention a lack of reliable sources, although we have innumerable reliable sources mentioning what Manning herself wants. Is there some sort of reliable source that serves as a registry for name changes regardless of the subject's wishes? I know Germany doesn't allow children to be given certain names. Is there some analog for American citizens, especially adults? μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

   Are a subjects wishes a trump card in this matter? As I recall, that was not the case when there was all that fuss about Daniel Brandt being featured in an article. Dolescum (talk) 17:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

2. Oppose per commonname. Individual is notable for activities which took place while named Bradley Manning. Our primary obligation is to our readers who, per principle of least astonishment, will expect article to make name that has been most widely publicized. NE Ent 01:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   Redirects are cheap, and it is likely that both names will appear bolded in the lead. Any astonishment on the part of the reader is likely to be brief and superficial. Recent coverage, for which the subject is also notable, has extensively used her present name, and so it does not seem unreasonable to assume that many readers will actually expect Chelsea. I, JethroBT 03:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

3. Oppose as "Bradley" is the name she was known as during her most notable activities; both leaking the material, and during the trial. I consider "Chelsea" as only being undo weight. I should add there is no possible application of BLP to this choice, whether the lead starts
   1. Bradley Manning, now known as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, or
   2. Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, formerly known as Bradley Manning.

   — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

4. Oppose retrospective renaming that conflicts with sources supporting the early material. Revisionism should be avoided. Bradley was the child and the person who committed the act, was caught and was sentenced. Bradley then became Chelsea. Both names should be used, divided by in the timeline at the point of change. On COMMONNAME, it refers to looking at usage in reliable sources, implied is that this refers to sources supporting the content. For the majority of this persons life, "Bradley" was the acknowledged name, and "he" the appilcable pronoun. Many sources introduce "Chelsea" only in relation to a relatively late change of choice of name and gender. Only of reliable sources on teh persons early life employ a retrospective name change should we do so.

   BLP, DIGNITY and HARM claims are exaggerated to the point of being false. There is no problem in saying that in 2010 he was known to others as Bradley. The stated concerns don't arise until later in the timeline.

   Suggest a compromise title, reflecting the non-constancy of a name, Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, formerly known as Bradley Manning. (Oppose the use of the word "now") --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   As a title, not a sentence in the lead? Can you point out any parallel cases for people with name changes?—Kww(talk) 06:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   Yes. Current Wikipedian affection for minimalist titling notwithstanding. This person defies a single defining name, so compromise. Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, née Bradley Edward Manning also works, but I fear an inevitable future conundrum when someone changes from a name that was not their birth name. The feminine "née" Bradley is an attractive provocative contradiction. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   http://en.wikipedia.org/Mary_Livingstone_(née_Moffat). I think "Chelsea (née Bradley) Manning" does a much better job of rectifying the principle of least astonishment wp:blp (the spirit, it's not a trump card), and wp:commonname. I oppose any argument that weighs the attractiveness of the title over clarity and communication (eg It's not clean/it's ugly). Disambiguation and clarification in parenthesis are unrelated to wp:commonname. I also oppose the notion (and rhetoric) that the title will cause harm when subject's statement itself acknowledges the old name will continue to be used. Chelsea is more respectful, but Bradley is not inherently disrespectful. Xkcdreader (talk) 06:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   I'm in general alignment with you over the "harm" issue. Your choice of a parallel example doesn't seem sound, though. Isn't that title just a way to disambiguate from Mary Livingstone?—Kww(talk) 07:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   If we're going down this route, wouldn't the sometimes-proposed "Private Manning" be better? Adam Cuerden 08:48, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

5. The article in its current state broadly complies with WP:NPOV, giving appropriate weight to the various events in Manning's life. The name "Bradley Manning" is widely known and was used by the subject while she engaged in many of the activities for which she is notable. Encyclopedic considerations require that we retain references to the name Bradley in the article. Because there is no "unsourced or poorly sourced" information to remove, and the article does not give undue weight to one POV, WP:BLP is not a compelling reason to change the title to "Chelsea Manning". MOS:IDENTITY addresses article titles, saying "disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article." So that points to WP:TITLE, specifically WP:COMMONNAME, WP:POVTITLE, and WP:TITLECHANGES. WP:TITLECHANGES is interesting because it mandates that if no consensus can be achieved, the article should remain at the last uncontroversial title. However, it makes no sense to !vote one way or the other based on this section because that would change the degree of consensus. WP:POVTITLE mandates that the article title be compliant with WP:V and NPOV. Both Bradley and Chelsea are supported by reliable sources, satisfying WP:V. The bulk of the content concerns events in her life while she identified as Bradley, but new sources are generally using Chelsea, so I see no compelling argument against either on the basis of NPOV. That leaves WP:COMMONNAME, which specifically addresses the problem of name changes: "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." The yardstick I will be using in this case, and that I plan on using for future BLP RMs, is to use the new name if NPOV is satisfied and more than 10% of the content references reliable sources that identify the subject by the new name. By my count, Chelsea is supported by 477 words, Breanna by 359(!), and Bradley by 7645. That puts the new name at 6% of the article, and leads me to Oppose the move. I consider this to be a reflection of the notability of the subject during the span of time when she identified as Bradley, not a statement about the validity of her current identity. DPRoberts534 (talk) 07:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   But isn't your yardstick essentially ignoring the advice from WP:COMMONNAME that "more weight should be given" to recent sources? If most content is written from sources before the name change, "reflection of the notability" of Bradley Manning means that you're measuring sources just by volume, not taking recency into account at all. Diego (talk) 10:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   It does not ignore COMMONNAME. If I were giving equal weight to sources published after the name change, I would demand a plurality. The phrase "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change" is not specific. It encompasses everything less than a relative majority but more than 0. I think 10% is generous. Considering all the hubbub surrounding the name change, I honestly expected to be !voting the other way. DPRoberts534 (talk) 16:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

6. * Strongly Oppose - Material redacted from this comment pursuant to discretionary sanctions. Do not restore except after following the appeal procedures listed there. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC) So, no way should we move this over to Chelsea Manning. He's not notable under that name,so moving to Chelsea Manning would also violate (for a number of reasons, WP:CRYSTAL, (hasn't happened yet, it's not a notable event, he's not notable under that name ). He IS notable under Bradley Manning.
   Leave it at Bradley Manning.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh   11:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   I don't want to put words into your mouth but could you clarify why you beleive genetics and not gender are important here? CombatWombat42 (talk) 15:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   Be careful to not switch sex (physical) and gender (psychological). She hasn't changed her gender, true -- she has seen herself as female for years. It is her sex she is seeking to change. Dralwik| 15:34, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   I would politely point out that comments of this sort - i.e. ones based on the poster's personal rejection of the legitimacy of trans identities - were explicitly discarded by the closing admins of the previous move request, and encourage that this precedent be followed again by whoever closes this. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

7. Oppose During the trial she was "Bradley Manning". Since this article focuses on her pre-incarnation life (for which she is notable for) it should remain as Bradley. Future persons doing research will not find court, army or government documents relating to the case under her new name therefore it should remain as Bradley. WP:COMMONNAME states that we should use the name most referenced in reliable sources, just because those sources have now started to report on her transgender status and are using her new name should not outweigh those sources that are relevant to her actual notability. Bradley Manning is NOT notable for being a transgendered member of the army who is currently in jail, rather she is notable for the information leak, criminal charges and subsequent trial that took place. Mike (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   Your argument is a self defeating one because in a few months when all the news sources report her as a woman you will have to admit that then she is a woman. So she isn't a woman now, but she will be then? That really doesn't make sense. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 16:30, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   Not quite. The sources used are in the past, what happens after the trial has no bearing on the event in which Bradley Manning is notable for. Mike (talk) 21:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

8. Oppose: when reliable sources confirm that Bradley Manning has changed legal name to Chelsea Manning the article can be moved to that title, and when equally reliable sources confirm that Bradley/Chelsea has had a change of "legal gender" all references to he/him/his in the article can be changed to she/her/hers. But not until then. Thomas.W 16:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   Hi Thomas, we have lots of people (dare I say most?) that we have an article under a different name than the legal name, and the legal name argument rarely comes up. Could you maybe explain why this case is different, or conversely why you think that biographies should be under the legal name? I have the feeling that the legal name argument might not been very well thought through, but I might be wrong, and a good answer might strengthen your argument and convince me or others. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 16:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

   Certain judges have been known to block or even reverse trans people's name changes because they don't accept trans people's identities. A "legal name change" standard would create unnecessary barriers, and would be inconsistent with the fact that Misplaced Pages doesn't require "legal name" or "legal name changes" elsewhere. Ananiujitha (talk) 16:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

9. Oppose - There is a person. Her name is Chelsea Manning. There is an article. Its name is Bradley Manning. The names are different. Yes. This only reflects the fact that living people are not articles, and articles are not living people. The baseline for living people is that they are entitled to live, notorious or not, named or not. Each and every people whose death is depicted in the 'Collateral Murder' video was entitled to live (and nevertheless was shot to death). For articles, the rule is different, the topic must be notable... or the article is to be deleted. 1.4 million people hold the US top-secret security clearance. Assuming independency from gender, 3 per 1000 among them perceive themselves as transgender, i.e. roughly 4000 people. Did really someone intent to have an article or even a stub about each of them? In the Bradley Manning article, due weight must be given to trans-genderism (incidental) and to trans-loyalty (key point). That is the reason why the article's name must be chosen from the enrolment name, not from the gender name. Presenting Chelsea Manning as yet another Kristin Beck would be rather misleading. On the contrary, the notoriety of Chelsea Manning and her impact onto the real world occured from the 'Collateral murder' leak, that was comparable in importance to the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse leak. These key actions were done using the 'Bradley' enrolment name and are known under that name. Putting the focus on this 'Collateral murder' video and naming the article Bradley will hurt the feelings of some people in the military. Putting the foccus elsewhere and naming the article Chelsea would hurt the feelings of some people in the wide-world mankind. Guess what will be the academic choice of the western-male-white-thirty Encyclopedia? Pldx1 (talk) 16:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
10. Oppose. Everything notable about Manning (except for the gender change) occurred when he was called Bradley. Misplaced Pages isn't a directory; it only includes people with notability. Therefore, the article's title should emphasize the time period of Manning's notability. -- Ypnypn (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
11. Oppose. I said previously that I would support the move when the balance of significant coverage had switched over to the new name. (For my reasons why this is the only relevant criterion, see my post in the pronouns RFC.) However, on further consideration, I've realised that this is unlikely to ever happen. Yes, a majority of reliable sources decided to respect Manning's wishes in the immediate aftermath of her announcement. But that was a post-script to the events for which she will be remembered, the events which actually justify the existence of this article, events which all occurred under the name Bradley Manning. There will be the occasional news story about legal processes and her eventual release, but that is it. Her time in the spotlight is almost certainly over. And when people write about these events 20 years from now, Bradley is the name they will use.

    In that respect, this situation is highly comparable to the article on Alexis Reich / John Mark Karr, where a person announced a new gender identity and name long after the events for which they became notable. Though that case is much more egregious, because virtually all of our sources have chosen not to respect the name change, but many editors apparently think that the preferences of the subject are more important than our core policy of verifiability. – Smyth\ 21:36, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

12. Oppose per Ypnypn. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 22:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    Although we have the article on the person who falsely admitted to killing JonBenet Ramsey titled as a woman named Alexis Reich, even though that person was notable as John Mark Karr, and just about every source refers to her as Karr. If we have that article at Reich over the much more well known Karr, to me that casts doubt on using the notability of Bradley versus Chelsea as rationale for resisting a move on transgendered articles. Truthfully, I'm very troubled by the Karr/Reich case, and its potential implications of whether this page should be Bradley or Chelsea. Dralwik| 22:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    In my opinion, the other one should be changed. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 22:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    I came across the Alexis Reich case while doing some research on this one, and was struck by the lack of sourcing for the name, so I submitted an RM. The response was rather vicious - people claimed they felt physically ill as a result, and I was branded a raving transphobe. I nonetheless think that article should be moved, the title is inherently anti-reader, as any reader would not know to search for the name Alexis Reich. Once this one closes, we could put together some more sources and attempt another move on that one. I think they're quite different cases, actually.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:16, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    The redirect works fine, and "John Mark Karr" is mentioned in the article, so I don't see why search is an issue here. Kaldari (talk) 01:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

    The redirect argument is literally the worst argument ever possible in an RM. Watch carefully:

    The redirect works fine, and "Alexis Reich" is mentioned in the article, so I don't see why BLP is an issue here.

    See how easy that was? Anyway, we're off topic, we can discuss further at the Reich talk page.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

    Huh? Saying "we can redirect users who search for Karr to Reich" is a great response to "what if people search for Karr?" — whereas saying "we can redirect Reich to Karr" doesn't, IMO, make sense as response to "using 'Karr' as the tite seems to violate BLP"! -sche (talk) 01:52, 2 October 2013 (UTC)