Misplaced Pages

Talk:Free City of Cracow

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Charles (talk | contribs) at 21:38, 24 August 2007 (→Move back to []). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 21:38, 24 August 2007 by Charles (talk | contribs) (→Move back to [])(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
WikiProject iconPoland Stub‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland
StubThis article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconFormer countries Stub‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country
StubThis article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Note icon
An editor has requested that a map be added to this article and placed within the infobox.

Republic or Free City

The name of this country was Rzeczpospolita Krakowska, which could be translated as Republic of Krakow or Republic of Cracow. I've never heard the name Free City of Krakow. Could anyone provide some example?Halibutt 18:30, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

See: for the city-state's constitution (in Polish) and coins. You'll only find the name Wolne Miasto Kraków (Free City of Kraków) there, no mention of Rzeczpospolita Krakowska. However, it seems that both names were used interchangeably in everyday language or even some formal documents. Kpalion 18:58, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
My bad, thanks for the explanation.Halibutt 22:18, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Split

This article will soon be expanded and/or splitted into several subarticles. See Misplaced Pages:WikiProject History of Poland/Periodization. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:35, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand why it should be split. --Kpalion 23:59, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well, maybe split is not the right word ATM, but the plan is to expand this article, and when it reaches 32k some parts will be splitted to subarticles. For now, obviously, emphasis is on expansion :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 10:52, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Oh my, you're seriously thinking of expanding this article to over 32 kb? Geez, all my knowledge on FCK does not exceed 500b, not to mention 1kb... Also, doesn't the article on Kraków need expansion more? Halibutt 17:54, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
All in good time. After all, shouldn't we strive to make every article a featured one? :>--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:54, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Maybe my version on polish Wiki will help (but I'm not sure if there are no mistakes). Pozdrawiam :) (no i wielki szacunek (rispekt jak to się mówi dziś nad Wisłą ;) za Wasze art. z historii Polski na Wiki-en) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.29.64.229 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Stop de-Anglicizing!

Kraków may be more theoretically correct, but "Cracow" is more common in the English language, certainly when referring to this 19th-century historical entity. In English, Rome is not generally called "Roma", Munich is not generally called "München" -- and the same applies here... AnonMoos 14:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Please take your grieviances to Talk:Kraków; once you move it to Cracow I am sure nobody will oppose renaming of this article. Please note that reverting copyedit changes is disruptive, stop this.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever, dude -- you may think that English speakers should use Kraków, but the simple fact is that they don't, especially in a historical context like this. Manipulating articles to suit your politics is a violation of WP:POINT. AnonMoos 15:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
AnonMoos, first of all, please don't use this kind of language on Misplaced Pages. Nobody will take your arguments seriously, if you use phrases like "whatever, dude" in your discussions. Now back to the point: you may be right that "Cracow" is the correct English form, but we should aim at consensus and consistency throughout Misplaced Pages. So Piotrus is right – first you have to convince everyone to move Kraków to Cracow and then you can go around other articles and toggle the links. Doing it otherwise will amount to vandalism. And by the way, did you think about moving Mainz to Mayence or Beijing to Peking yet? Kpalion 18:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Kpalion, if you support Kraków, then you have to promote 北京 also. There are English Misplaced Pages articles named Hanover, Cologne, Nuremberg and Munich which are supposed to cover the German cities Hannover, Köln, Nürnberg and München. How come that the town which as Krakau was part of Austria and which was called Cracow in English for centuries is called Kraków in the English Misplaced Pages? Will we soon be told that Warszawa is English, too? And I haven't even started on Wrocław 3730 Google books hits vs. Breslau 7930 Google books hits yet.-- Matthead      O       02:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Give it a rest, Matthead: WP:NCGN and EOT.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
NCGN states that "if the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used.". Cracow was and is the widely accepted historical English name. Besides, you are pushing Kraków all over historical places, e.g. the current Talk:Kraków grosh survey on a 14th century coin. The currency of the Cracow Republic is at Kraków złoty, too.
No, Kraków is. Discus it at Talk:Kraków if you disagree, and don't waste others time here. Thank you.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Matthead, read what I wrote once again. I'm not suporting "Kraków", I'm supporting consensus and consistency. I'm not opposed to "Cracow", I'm opposed to edit wars that lead to nowhere. Kpalion 03:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I misunderstood your position. Anyway, when I looked up Nicolaus Copernicus a year ago, it said "Mikołaj Kopernik ... was a Polish ... astronomer" , and Polish/Poland was written all over the article. I am opposed to edit wars, too, but I am even more opposed to edit warriors that have "conquered" (or just created) many controversial articles and still keep on pushing. Read examples with another ongoing survey at Talk:Mikołaj of Ryńsk/Talk:Nikolaus von Renys. -- Matthead      O       06:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
It must be hard being opposed to oneself, Matthead, isn't it? Please understand that some Polish-language words are acceptable and used in English, and there is no need to replace them with German-language versions, and the revert wars will end...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
When did you stop beating your wife? Was it hard for you and her? Piotr, please refrain from such word plays, insinuations and rhetoric questions. Besides, where is the need to replace them with German-language versions manifested? Are Mikołaj Kopernik and Mikołaj of Ryńsk acceptable and used in English, and questioning the use of these prohibited? Is Nicolaus Copernicus a German-language version that will cause prolonged revert wars? (and Nikolaus Kopernikus is Polish spelling, maybe?) -- Matthead      O       18:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
If you stop making ad hominens yourself, and accuse others who disagree with you of anti-German sentiment and such, you'll find the discussions much less pleasant. Alas, it is you who have to make the change, Matthead.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Britannica.com: Kraków

I’d like to appeal to Misplaced Pages editorial team to please protect this article if the edit war continues. Kraków is a living, vibrant city with one generally accepted name. Nowhere in North America have I seen it being spelled differently. Nevertheless, all major encyclopedias acknowledge the existence of an alternate (and somewhat misleading) spelling introduced into the English language in the past.

The only accepted differentiation in the spelling of Kraków currently used by all of North American media is the one without diacritics, i.e.:

New York Times on Cracow (internal search) 854 hits -- Matthead      O       02:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Please note, that the above so called "hits" were NOT originally added here by the author. They were inserted by Matthead in order to confuse the issues. I have assumed that the reader can find for themselves what's relevant. New York Times hits on "Cracow" (quoted by Matthead) are highly misleading since they include entities being promoted abroad by overzealous Poles (not native English speakers), i.e. "Academy of Cracow", "100 Hotels in Cracow", "Cracow Klezmer Band", etc. Poeticbent 06:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "inserted by Matthead in order to confuse": Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Regarding "overzealous Poles (not native English speakers)", I'm confused. Do underzealous Poles that are native English speakers promote Kraków then? -- Matthead      O       07:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Please note, that the Washington Post "hits" on Krakow quoted by Matthead are in fact full size articles written on Krakow... not web search hits by any stretch of the imagination. Poeticbent 06:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Newsweek on Gary Krakow reports" many hits for "MSNBC.com's Gary Krakow reports", also hits for "Brian Krakow", and Cracow of course -- Matthead      O       02:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Please note, that the new and narrower internal Newsweek search on "Krakow Poland" yielded 104 articles, and only 14 results for "Cracow Poland." These are the real proportions Matthead tries so hard to misrepresent.
Again, Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. The original "Krakow" link shows 1695 hits, with "Krakow Poland" its down only 104. Where's the misrepresention then? -- Matthead      O       07:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: It would also be worth mentioning that the corresponding article in Britannica called: “Republic of Cracow” does not have significance similar to that of a ongoing discussion regarding the use of the Polish name Gdańsk (versus the German name Danzig in historical context, see:Template:Gdansk-Vote-Notice). Unlike the name “Cracow”, which was introduced into the English language — and the English speaking world — from outside of Poland… the German name Danzig was commonly used by the inhabitants of Gdańsk for centuries. The alternative spelling of the “Republic of Cracow” therefore exists in contextual vacuum, even though the spelling of “Cracow” is currently being used by some Poles striving to write in the so called proper English without enough exposure to it. Poeticbent 22:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Let me get that straight: When Britannica calls the 19th century state Republic of Cracow, this does not have significance and "exists in contextual vacuum", but when Britannica chooses to use Kraków for their article on the present day town, this is significant for any use and can be taken as a pretext to force this name on every related article? Do I have to remind you (and others who might not know yet) that Cracow, like Danzig or Praha, was not exclusively inhabited by Poles, nor exclusively owned by Poland throughout its history? In the 19th century to WW1, "Austrian rule was more benevolent than that exercised by Russia and Prussia, Kraków became a Polish national symbol and a center of culture and art, known frequently as the "Polish Athens". I say that this period should better be described with Cracow, or do you prefer the proper German Krakau, or Russian Варшава for the Warsaw of the time? I think the English speakers kept Cracow and Warsaw "verbally alive" then, and reinstated Poland after WW1, and this should be respected for decades to come. If Kraków is natural to English speakers, it will catch on without being pushed. Recently, some media might have choosen Krakow, but many who have grown up with Cracow are still alive and not willing to get "reeducated" to use pedantic new spelling. See Prague for example, do the Czechs push Praha? The Italians Firenze, the Greek Αθήνα, the Italians Roma? The Russians even went back to St. Petersburg, skipping Petrograd. These countries take pride that their cities made themselves a name in the world's probably most important language already centuries ago. Do you want your town to be listed among the countless absure places with funny names instead? -- Matthead      O       08:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure that Cracow is a nice town, but that has very little relevance to purging 100% of references to what is still probably the most common spelling in English -- certainly so in a historical context like this... AnonMoos 00:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The proper spelling of the name “Kraków” (including diacritics) has been used in the English speaking world for decades. International Edition of the World Atlas by Hammond (Maplewood; New Jersey, New York, Chicago; 1976) published 30 years ago wrote “Kraków (Cracow)” in its index of Poland, while The Canadian Oxford School Atlas (Oxford University Press, Don Mills; 1957; 1963; 1972; 1977; 1985; 1987) wrote “Kraków: see Cracow” in its world index. — There was never any doubt in the minds of the English scholars that the original spelling of the name “Kraków” could not be taken for granted. Poeticbent 04:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Addendum II: I regret that Matthead mistook my findings for a personal attack. Nowhere have I questioned his ability and willingness to contribute to our ongoing discussion perhaps even substantially.

As far as assuming Matthead's good faith, again, it is in good faith that the user promotes a point of view different from mine. I responded with counterarguments only under those circumstances. However, like everybody else, I’d prefer not to have text inserted into my discourse, as is the case with the first original "hit count" for New York Times added by Matthead without distinction, signature or a single word of explanation.

The purpose of this discussion is obvious to all who participate in it. — Your train of thought does not follow mine. Please, state your argument only in your own paragraphs Matthead and refrain from editing for content text written by me if you want to be treated cordially.

P.S.: I refuse to respond to all other claims made by Matthead like the one made above, quote: “English speakers kept Cracow and Warsaw "verbally alive" then, and reinstated Poland after WW1, and this should be respected for decades to come.” — Please read History of Poland to learn more about how Poland was “reinstated” after WW1 by “English speakers” (wink, wink) with blood, sweat and tears, no doubt.

Poeticbent 19:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Cracow

This article is about a HISTORICAL ENTITY, not the current city of Cracow! Historic naming applies. The content of the EB has been twisted as "evidence" for Krakow and even an administrator is saying to move Krakow first! Ridiculous! The proper name of this article is either Republic of Cracow or Free City of Cracow... NOT the name that Piotrus has locked it into! Charles 06:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Two preceeding discussions, as well as comments by several uses you got recently on your talk page after the move, show that there is no conensus for the move. Feel free to present your arguments for the move, and start a WP:RM to move it when you feel the argument has been presented. PS. The applicable naming convention is WP:NCGN. It states: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. If the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. However, modern English publications increasingly use Kraków instead of Cracow for the city throughout it history; hence we should use Kraków for both modern and historical references to the city. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  06:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't see a consensus or a vote to keep it at Krakow, so I made a bold move and changed it to Cracow, which was backed up with evidence from the Encyclopedia Brittanica. I see no rationale for this move and for others in the history where a reversal of a well-intentioned editor's move goes without so much as an edit summary. I have always tried to assume good faith, but I am finding it to be increasingly difficult. I do not think, Piotrus, that you are showing NPOV. I had faith that you would turn a better leaf and work toward a better English Misplaced Pages and made note of such after you came to talk to me on my talk page. I have been silently been observing various shenanigans with regard to English/native naming and I found it to be an incredible affront to my intelligence to be told to have the Krakow article moved first before moving anything else. Absolutely unreal. Charles 06:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Increasingly does not mean overwhelmingly. Indeed, the EB uses "Republic of Cracow" and that name is all but discounted for the sake of the location of the article on the current city. Unbelievable. I have only come into seeing Krakow recently in the article on Misplaced Pages, never before in any text or manuscript that I have read. Charles 06:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Previous discussion

From my talk page: User_talk:Charles#Bone_of_contention, where the edit history () can be verified and checked if needed. Please don't copy and paste the entire discussion, it was had already. Plus, the formatting is awful and it is generally disruptive to just copy and paste an essentially concluded discussion. Charles 14:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Calm down, everybody! Please remember there is an Arbcom decision on Eastern Europe, advising reasonable and calm behavior out of everybody; and I do mean everybody.
His rationale thus far is that a move can only be accomplished when Kraków is moved to Cracow, which he will see to that it does not happen. The name is supported by the naming conventions and the EB even prescribes the name, but everything thus far has been distorted to "support" keeping this at a name using Kraków. I truthfully wonder if the various editors think we should have articles on the Kingdom of Hannover or the Duchy of Braunschweig. Do they even care about those places? Charles 02:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Some editors do support the Duchy, or at least the Duke, of Braunschweig; IIRC they were outvoted. I disagreed with them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Very, very interesting link. I see Kraków comes up in it as well. Quelle surprise. Charles 03:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The place called Kraków does exist (see WP:NCGN for guidance). It did not have a different name in that period. It was also called Kraków (native name, now and then), for the last one thousand years. And why exactly are you advocating peace, PMAnderson, while driving a stick in an ant colony? --Poeticbent talk 03:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I am advocating peace; I am also asking that this decision be taken in accordance with the guidelines we have decided upon after the presentation of evidence. Metaphors are not helpful. If it is impossible to do so, I shall post this discussion to Arbitration Enforcement, and let them do what they wish; I would deeply prefer to see this discussed reasonably, without imputations on motives (save it for ArbCom, if they care). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


Wait, were we magically transported to Polish Misplaced Pages and talking about the Polish name, or are we discussing the English name of a historical entity? Charles 03:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Charles, let’s not repeat ourselves. We had this discussion already on your Talk page. Please read what I wrote above, on January 11, 2007, about The Canadian Oxford School Atlas (Oxford University Press, Don Mills; 1957; 1963; 1972; 1977; 1985; 1987) using Kraków for the last fifty years. Hardly a Starship Enterprise of a transporter. --Poeticbent talk 03:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I see that index listing referring the reader to Cracow and I see the errors in your dating of material on my talk page. You are trying to manipulate data to suit your POV. Why would a scholarly publication see the need to redirect one to Cracow if it is bad, wrong and forbidden? Again, you ignore that it tells one to see Cracow because that is where the entry is located. Charles 04:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Evidence

WP:NCGN recognizes six classes of evidence:

  1. Encyclopedias
  2. Standard sources
    • Library of Congress country guides Poland does not mention the subject; the treatment of the early nineteenth century concentrates on Russia.
    • Cambridge histories NCMH IX: 403: "Cracow, now a Free City"; 664: "treaty status of Cracow, established at Vienna as a neutral Free City". X 16: "disappearance of the Free City of Cracow"; 235:"the nominally autonomous Free City of Cracow", 267: "occupation of the Republic of Cracow".
    • Oxford dictionaries
  3. Google, but not www.google.com; and with extensive warning about false positives.
  4. Media sources
  5. Consensus of Wikipedians
  6. Uses of one phrase to translate another into English
    • Use as a translation of Freie Stadt Krakau here

The last three are unlikely, but not (even #5), absolutely impossible. Let us calculate. Please supply links or references, as appropriate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I find the Google Books results particularly striking, myself. Feel free to look for false positives, of course. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
In other words, you are saying that this is a Battle of Volgograd issue? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think it is. Thanks for the analogy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Let me put your mind at peace, PMAnderson. The reason why so many books in your search spell Cracow is because they’ve been published in the eighteen century, between the years 1847 (Travers Sir Twiss, Edmund Burke) and 1875 (Edward Hertslet). Please read the above mentioned discussions for more data. Btw, your comparison of Cracow to Stalingrad is preposterous, since the modern city of Volgograd has changed its name a couple of times since then. Kraków didn't. --Poeticbent talk 17:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Playing the devil's advocate, note that limiting our search only to books from 1950 onward, while cutting the above results by over 50%, still leaves large numbers: , .-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Try cutting the search a bit further, since the city has proclaimed its official English spelling of Krakow only in recent years. And so, Google Book search produces only 63 titles on the "Free City of Cracow," date:1980-2007. That includes books like International Law in Historical Perspective, by Jan Hendrik Willem Verzijl, published originally in 1974, etc. --Poeticbent talk 17:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • No Government of any kind has the right or power to declare what English is; only English usage does. We do not accept official usage until it has become common usage; see Talk:East Timor. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Limiting the Google Scholar results to recent ones still preserves many results for the Free City of Cracow.
  • And the purpose of Use English is the simple and practical one of allowing our readers to compare our articles with other sources, and minimizing surprise. On this subject, an English-speaking reader will be surprised not to find the usage of the Britannica and NCMH. Polish readers have a Polish Misplaced Pages. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
You’re absolutely right about this. We ought to promote the new and the old English spelling. However, the official communiqué of the city officials were meant NOT for the English speakers, but for the Polish writing community, including journalists, travel writers, TV anchors, English language teacher in local schools, etc. I’m sure that the increase in numbers of books and articles on the Free City of Kraków will follow. --Poeticbent talk 18:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
If the change in English usage happens (and the city's policy doesn't change first, which is one reason we do not respond immediately), "Free City of Kraków" will be unsurprising to anglophones, and Misplaced Pages will follow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
And that has not happened yet. Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. Charles 20:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
PoeticBent, English Misplaced Pages is mean for English speakers, not for the Polish writing community. Charles 20:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Move back to Free City of Cracow

Where's the RM and vote? I'm sick of all the talk promoting "Krakuf", which is the way our Polish friends pronounce their "Kraków". Anyone ever heard that spoken, maybe in a BBC radio broadcast of 1978 "... and the new pope is ... the Archbishop of Krakuf"? There will never be a consensus as some "natives" will not cease to promote their local POV. Let's vote to move this and related articles, e.g. Cracow Uprising, to the proper English name, and get over with the endless talk. -- Matthead      O       19:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, the only reason you're here is to pick a fight. Until a consensus is achieved on the naming of the article, it should remain at the naming convention determined by the original article creator according to WP:NAME. This was the Free City of Kraków, and thus the article has been moved by an administrator, and will remain there until a consensus can be determined. Unfortunately, not all participants are willing to accept a civil participation in the dispute. --Poeticbent talk 21:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
No, no, no. If only I could show you that I would be wagging my finger at you. STOP MANIPULATING naming conventions to support your biased POV. The naming conventions support and endorse a move back to Free City of Cracow. You, my friend, are hardly civil in your accusations and insinuations. I can hardly believe that you have the nerve to tell other people "how it is". Charles 21:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Categories: