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AFD of Juanin Clay

If you get a moment, could you head over to this article and complete the AFD? You tagged the article here, but I can't find the debate or a rationale for deletion. Thanks! UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I thought a bot would pick it up and create a page. What do I do next? I appreciate your help, I find the AfD instructions confusing. Newjerseyliz (talk) 15:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Tell me why you want it deleted, and I can complete the rest of the steps for you. A bot can list it and complete templates, but can't guess at your reasoning - and the reasoning is a big part of the process. AFD can be a bit obtuse, on occasion - but it's no problem. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

She just doesn't seem like a notable actress. There are hundreds (thousands?) of actors who have a smattering of film and TV credits. She didn't have a long-running or sustained career. I realize the article is a stub but I don't foresee it being expanded or worked on further.

As for the AfD, I don't know how to get it listed on the page with all of those values in parentheses (like (Talk) ). I have posted one AfD successfully but it took me hours to figure out how to get it listed properly and I don't recall the steps I took (beyond posting the tag on the article page). Thanks for the patience and help. I'd like to do more work on the AfD and Categories for Discussion levels. Newjerseyliz (talk) 15:51, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

On the page Juanin Clay, in the box headed "This article is being considered for deletion", you should find a list of four steps. You've done step 1; in step 2, click the first blue link (Preloaded debate) and this opens an editing window. Leave most of that alone; change the |cat=U to |cat=B but most importantly, change the word "Reason" to your reason why the article should be deleted (more on deletion reasons at WP:DELETE). Then set the edit summary to Creating deletion discussion for ] and save the page; we can handle the remaining steps. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Redrose64, I would NOT have figured that out! For the one successful AfD I posted (for Brenda Venus) it was a trial and many errors. I think I just went to AfDs and cut and pasted wikitext. Still ended up posting it wrong the first time. Is there a reason it is so much more complicated that CfD? Newjerseyliz (talk) 16:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I don't think I'll be creating a lot of new articles (that seems like a perilous undertaking) and finding typos and awkward grammar to correct is haphazard so I'm really looking for some way I can help on the organizational level. I hope AfD and CfD could be these areas once I learn from the masters.  ;-) Newjerseyliz (talk) 16:39, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, of the four steps that I mentioned, you've now done step 2 and I've done step 3.

I think we can omit step 4 (Please consider notifying the author(s) by placing {{subst:adw|Juanin Clay}} ~~~~ on their talk page(s).), because the creator was 68.68.182.95 (talk) who isn't likely to be watching for such messages. There have been other contributors; but most of them made only minor changes. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:53, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I thought I did all steps, as I put WP:NOTE as a reason why the article is being suggested for deletion. I didn't know I had to notify everyone who made a major contribution on the article. Is this done for every AfD? Man, this is complicated. Newjerseyliz (talk) 16:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

You don't need to notify all the contributors. Typically, only the original creator is informed, but it's courtesy to also inform major contributors. I've notified three who seem to have put more in than most. Hopefully, anybody else who's interested will have the page on their watchlist. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:12, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I notified some of those same people so I'll go back and remove the tag I put on their Talk Page. Thanks, again. Newjerseyliz (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Looks like you all have it under control. Good work! UltraExactZZ ~ Did 04:52, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, happy to help. No problem at all. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:10, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

August 2013

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Category:American child actresses

The close was as a keep, so nothing has to be done. If you don't believe that we need any child actress categories, then your next step would be to nominate Category:Child actresses for deletion. Which will actually need to be an upmerge of all of the children categories so that they get kept in the by country actor tree. The end result is that to be clear, you will need to nominate everything or at least some of the subcategories. The remainder could be done as speedies if your proposal receives consensus. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:04, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm disappointed. Either one of the two proposals would be an improvement over how things are right now. If I wanted to move the male child actors out of Category: Child Actors into Category:Male child actors, is they a way to do this with a bot or script? There are 1200+ articles that need to be recategorized in order that there is some consistency in the way that the gender is categorized. That's an awful lot of work. Newjerseyliz (talk) 03:06, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

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Commentary

For what it might be worth, feel free to comment wherever you want. Ignocrates is going to Arbitration because of his really dubious history of conduct, including I think fairly clear dishonesty. So far as I can tell, Smeat seems to be dealing more with the "fringey"/minority view of the oral gospel tradition, which, as someone who hasn't myself checked the Coogan reference, published last year, I have to admit might not be as "fringey" any more. But, yeah, even academics, and highly regarded ones, have been known to be advocates of fringey beliefs, like Carl Sagan and global cooling, as I have already mentioned. There are questions of WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE, and a ton of others which might apply here. As someone who is, primarily, these days going through the relevant reference works to see what they cover, and to what extent, I am pretty much only active onwiki a few days a week, because compiling those lists takes a loooong time itself. Those reference sources, particularly the most recent ones, taking into account any reviews of those sources or other statements in the academic literature subsequent to publication, are in general counted as being the best sources to indicate WEIGHT around here. There may be a rather valid case for increased coverage of the oral gospel tradition in some of our articles, I don't know. But it would definitely help if people actually discussed how to add or modify the content, rather than engage in basically useless talk page blather and threats, like Smeat and Ignocrates have in the really unusual stated "threat" of an RfC/U. IN general, as per the third pillar of wikipedia, we are an encyclopedia, and I think a review of the policies and guidelines would indicate that most if not all of them are more or less designed to convey the impression that our content should mirror the content of the most thorough and recent reference sources possible, making allowances if there haven't been any since a major finding. Particularly with the 2012 Coogan book, counted by the American Library Association as one of the best reference sources of 2012, I kinda doubt there are problems there, but I haven't checked the reviews to see if some articles or topics were seen as being insufficient or prejudicial coverage, either.

And, FWIW, like I think I told Nishidani elsewhere, what I am trying to do right now is to get together lists of articles in highly regarded reference sources for the various projects, and then, hopefully, when they're done (if I live that long) reviews of those sources, indicating their strengths and weaknesses. I think the likelihood of people being willing to help with the latter will increase if there are more of the former, but still think that having clear ideas of what is and is not included in reference sources is probably one of the more basic things we need around here, and something that still hasn't been done outside of one list of articles in Britannica. John Carter (talk) 18:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you have an opinion about User_talk:Ignocrates#RFC/U evidence? Ignocrates (talk) 19:34, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'm embarrassed to admit how many years worth of argumentative posts I've read, going back and forth between you two. It was like watching a trainwreck and I was left wondering, "Why can't either of these guys just step back, shake the dust from their shoes, and move on? Are they actually getting some satisfaction from the incessant arguing? Are they enjoying it too much?"

This conflict has gone beyond reliable sources, it's downright hatred and contempt now. There is little pretense of actually listening to each other to negotiate compromises. There is too much bad blood, too much history and disrespect that has been shown.

I will go to ArbCom when this ever gets filed because I'm genuinely curious as to how the committee members will ever look through the dozens of diffs I expect will be posted, the voluminous exposition on how "disruptive" the other editor is being, that they will have to parse through. I expect that several other well-intentioned editors will get pulled into this as participants and will have to decide what they will say about this business which has gone on now for years.

John, I realize that you think this argument is about what is a reliable source. But that is just the hammer you are using to pound Ignocrates over the head. You have made some valid points and there have been intelligent editors & Admins who have agreed with you. But you dismiss Ignocrates' (and others) attempts to address your concerns. I sincerely believe that you will continue to obsess about this one article as long as Ignocrates participates in editing it. It will never be good enough for you because of his participation in the process.

I think you will find that the focus of the ArbCom will not be on the nuances of what is a reliable source but instead upon the behavior and misconduct of all of the participants in this long, long dispute. My only suggestion is to keep your comments to ArbCom brief and to the point and not dig yourself into a deeper hole.

Good luck to you both. Newjerseyliz (talk) 21:17, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, John, I've looked at your some of your work as an Admin and I think you've done some excellent work. You have offered measured and thoughtful guidance and advice. But, for whatever reason, you have lost perspective on this one article which is too bad. I think your efforts are well spent on the other work you do, like putting together lists of sources. Newjerseyliz (talk) 21:17, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

On further investigation, I've found that John Carter and Ignocrates have already been to ARBCOM twice in the past 6+ years over Ebionites-related content. I didn't realize you two had already pleaded your case in several dispute forums and that there was an ARBCOM history, at least related to appropriate sources (RS) on Ebionite articles. I stand by my opinion that this has become a personal, bitter stalemate between the two of you but I see now that all parties are already familiar with the dispute resolution process and I was mistaken to assume otherwise. But I think now the primary sticking point is conduct, not content and any future case will result in mediators scrutinizing past behavior.

I had just been looking at Talk Page comments going back two years between the involved parties. To see that this dispute goes back to 2007 makes me realize that this disagreement in much more complicated than I knew. I don't envy any mediator sorting through this all. And I was mistaken to think I had an understanding of the extent of this dispute and years of conflict that has led to the present situation. I will leave it to well-intentioned Admins and Mediators who have much more experience than I to determine responsibility for the current impasse and solutions for moving past it. Newjerseyliz (talk) 12:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

John Carter wrote : "So far as I can tell, Smeat seems to be dealing more with the "fringey"/minority view of the oral gospel tradition" well, that's wrong. I am interested in quite a few topics, and one of them is early Christianity and the relationship to the Roman empire and Christian origins. "Smeat and Ignocrates ... the really unusual stated "threat" of an RfC/U" Just to let you know that we have dropped that idea as you have to have two parties to a dispute, Ret Prof is not here and I was not party to disputes on Gospel of the Ebionites. "I think a review of the policies and guidelines would indicate that most if not all of them are more or less designed to convey the impression that our content should mirror the content of the most thorough and recent reference sources possible" I don't agree with that at all. One of the best things about Misplaced Pages in my opinion is that it can be easily updated with the latest information using, for instance, the most recent works of recognised authorities such as Bart Ehrman. I would echo what Nishidani said here "Tertiary sources are fine as well, though the problem there is that encyclopedias, reference texts and the like are always slighted dated compared to cutting-edge scholarship (b) are often too synthetic and gloss over the details and controversies in a generic way, and, (c) in fields, and I'm sure many colleagues here have the experience, where I have a thorough knowledge, I rarely leave off reading a generic encyclopedic entry on some aspect of it without an irritated feeling that much is missing, or at a too high level of synthesis. Thus secondary sources, and by that, optimally, peer-reviewed contemporary scholarship, should form the basis of our transcriptive work. There the only relevant issue is covered byWP:Undue." Smeat75 (talk) 18:16, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

That all makes sense to me, Smeat75. It can be difficult for the typical layperson to get ahold of secondary sources, especially journal articles. But I'd rely on them more than encyclopedias because the author has to lay out his argument and, believe it or not, the scrutiny of peer-reviewed journals is more exacting than for encyclopedia articles. I know of one topical encyclopedia, present in all research libraries, where most of the entries are written by graduate students. That doesn't undermine their scholarship (they may be more on top of new research than full professors), it's just that they were the ones who were eager to contribute and write entries. Heck, I've written entries for encyclopedias when I was in graduate school, too (see Encyclopedia of African-American Religions) and that was because I was a good friend of one of the editors. Of course, he edited down my contributions, but all of the research was mine and I was a second year grad student. Okay, I'm off on a tangent, just here's another vote for secondary sources. Yeah! ;-) Newjerseyliz (talk) 23:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I echo Smeat75's concerns. The idea for this new Religion MoS is to take the content from 5 or 6 reference sources (i.e. religious dictionaries and encyclopedias), pull out the content they have in common to create an "average" article, and then summarize it with close paraphrasing and call that our best FA work. Anyone else need a barf bag? This is not only misguided; it is dangerous to the very spirit and purpose of Misplaced Pages. Ignocrates (talk) 00:00, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

In general, I think it is a bad decision to prioritize reference sources that one is familiar with and make them the definitive source to be used in all occasions. For example, I pretty much wore out the Encyclopedia of Religion in the university libraries where I worked but it has a "History of Religion" POV that is heavy on abstraction and light on detailed analysis. The encyclopedia entries reflect not only the particular stance of the contributors (who, luckily, are identified--it isn't always the case) but also the editing team. It was a great source to begin to learn about a topic in the field of religious studies but it was deficient in giving in depth examples or a broad range of perspectives on a subject.

So, my point is that even though I probably made copies of something like 70-100 articles in the EofR and am very familiar with it, I wouldn't recommend it as the definitive source of information except as representing the stance of scholars with a History of Religion perspective. It's not the best source of information if one is examining religion from a textual, historical, sociological, cultural, or practice perspective (it's pretty good on anthropological subjects).

This position can make it challenging to write articles since each author is limited to her own library and what resources can be found in libraries and online. But that's why Misplaced Pages is collaborative, so a number of editors can bring together the resources they have at hand. Newjerseyliz (talk) 18:59, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, if you would notice, nowhere did I say we should make it the "definitive source of information", and, honestly, I rather regret the implicit assertion to the contrary by you. You might have noticed that I did mention the reviews as well, which have had some serious reservations about several of the articles contained therein, which I believe I also mentioned. I also remember saying, probably on the talk page of WikiProject Religion and Nishidani's talk page most recently, that the most recent edition of the German RGG, now called Religion Past and Present, and the old HERE are counted as being basically the other two of the three best, most comprehensive sources out there. Regarding Ignocrates' continued harping on the irrational and I believe completely unfounded motivations behind my actions, I simply note once again that not only is he apparently incapable of AGF'ing anyone other than himself, but once again seems to be taking recourse to his apparently repeated ability to read the minds of others. Regarding whether it is the best only from that perspective, I think I already said that as well. Now, I realize that Ignocrates has made a habit of using the talk pages of others to engage in irrational attempts at misdirection from the matters of his own dubiously acceptable behavior for some time now. That is the primary reason I have asked one of the ArbCom clerks to draft the request for arbitration against him. However, to basically point toward the facts that he, in what I can only call his blind stupidity, chooses to ignore, I have been more or less the sole creator and developer to date of the pages in the Category:WikiProject lists of encyclopedic articles, and have made a list, more or less reproduced at User:John Carter/Religion reference sources, indicating the other sources which have been either included in the "reference works" article of tne EofR or in the American Library Association's yearly list of outstanding reference sources. So I believe Ignocrates' hysterial, paranoic, and completely irrational accusation above is clearly and directly contradicted by the evidence. But, that's not particularly new with him. I am still working on the list of articles and subarticles from the EofR primarily because of the incredible length of that source, and the really incredible number of subarticles, as well as the number of articles which have been changed from one edition to the next or added in the second edition. There are a number of other sources, which I have also at least started lists of articles on, primarily when the specific volumes of EofR aren't available, and which are at various levels of completion, and will be added as they are finished. As I indicated somewhere, I have also recently started to copy out articles from HERE for inclusion in WikiSource, because at least one or two of the reviews of the EofR said some of the articles in the HERE were still the best ever written. But, if one were to review Ovadyah/Ignocrates' history of contributions, which have more or less limited themselves to the "James" hypothesis for a more Christian early Christianity, the fact that under his previous name, Ovadyah, he indicates that he e-mailed the founder of the Ebionite Jewish Community, now Ebionite Community, about the development of the article apparently in a way which supports that group, and is even said by an IP on the talk page to have been a member of the group, I think we can see why Ignocrates has pretty much ignored the Nazarene Ebionites, who, apparently, don't agree with the EJC Ebionites.

"Ignocrates ... irrational...dubiously acceptable behavior ...blind stupidity....Ignocrates' hysterial, paranoic, and completely irrational accusation" You know, all WP guidelines and policies aside,it is sort of disturbing to see this, it seems to show someone in the grip of an obsession. You seriously need to chill out, take a step back, do not look at anything to do with Ignocrates or Ebionites for several months, this bitter feud obviously isn't good for you, and I do not mean to be condescending. There are plenty of other articles on Christianity on WP that need improvement.Smeat75 (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, if you were to review the history of edits to Ret. Prof.'s user talk page, you would see the number of times several editors have tried to reason with him, to, apparently, not a lot of gain. You will also find in the history that I specifically told him that I, unlike Ignocrates, who had indicated he would "protect" Ret. Prof. and has later twice called for RfC/U's against him, apparently thinking both times it only requires one person to do that, I indicated that I would tell Ret. Prof. before taking him to any boards, so I was honor bound to do so. That was the nature of the comment. I very much wish that some editors would see the history of at best dubious conduct and attempts at misdirection which has, pretty much, been the essence of Ovadyah/Ignocrates from the start, along with the paranoia and more than occasional dishonesty, and that is why the ArbCom clerk is preparing the statement to be made for a request. I might do the same myself, and probably would, if the number of reference sources I have at least started on, and the number of articles I am trying to start for WikiSource, weren't taking as much time as they are. John Carter (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

P.S. The reason for the lists of sub-articles, by the way, is that in previous discussion at I believe the notability guideline talk page on the subject of Buddhism, I was told that in general named subsections of "thematic" articles can be used as indicators of notability on some of those topics, so having an indication regarding which subtopics might themselves be notable seems reasonable as well. Particularly with the EofR, and to a lesser extent some others, those interminable lists of sub-articles, sub-sub-articles, sometimes to three or four or more levels of outline, is why some works take sooo much longer than others. And, of course, under no circumstances would I say that we would be only limited to them either, but that they might be usable in such a way. Also, I guess, in all honesty, following policies and guidelines, I think most of our content could, roughly, be said to be best when it basically just says what other existing encyclopedias or reference works say. But there are a lot of them, like I think I told Ret. Prof. once about two a month, including updated volumes, in religion/philosophy/mythology alone. On any topic which is covered extensively in multiple reference sources, the number of times we would need content in our main articles on topics covered by them to include material not included in them is probably few and far between. John Carter (talk) 17:40, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I want to AGF, John Carter, and you have clearly put a lot of work and thought into your interests and putting together resource lists. But it is hard to look past your negativity, WP:PA, WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and WP:HARASS tactics, not just with Ignocrates but you also said horribly harsh comments to Ret.Prof that led him to quit Misplaced Pages because you disagreed about one source! That was a debate that had gone through the dispute resolution process but it still was a sticking point that was big enough to cause one of the main editors to withdraw from further participation.
And discovering that these disagreements have gone on for 6+ years (with some of the same and some different) parties is not a good sign of being able to collaborate with others and compromise in the name of consensus.
I think your last paragraph to me is a good indication of a direction we can go in and maybe the situation can be defused as long as we are talking about content and resources and not the failings that we see in each other and past conflicts. I should do that myself regarding your conduct so I'll end my comment here and try to be more positive myself.
Let's start anew! Newjerseyliz (talk) 20:22, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

In regard to Smeat75's comment above (I won't interrupt the thread) "You know, all WP guidelines and policies aside,it is sort of disturbing to see this, it seems to show someone in the grip of an obsession.", this is not the first time this observation has been made. I direct your attention to this previous trip to AN/I on Aug. 31, 2010, the second of several, WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive635#False accusations of vandalism and Llywrch's comment in particular which I reproduce here:

Although this thread is practically resolved, I'd like to add one last comment because I've been involved in this dispute in a small way. I hope all of us can agree that John Carter is an established editor who has done praiseworthy work in the past. Further, this article is a controversial one -- which is the case with many subjects where the verifiable facts are few & the speculations -- both expert & fringe -- are many. On the other hand, while the accusations John has made about Ovadyah may perhaps be true, in my experience in the matter I have seen no evidence of any wrongdoing by Ovadyah here. I suspect this has become one of those conflicts where John has simply become inadvertently obsessed with the conflict & now needs to walk away from this article -- both for his own benefit & the project's -- to simply trust that another set of eyes will catch any possible problems in this article. To repeat the cliche, there are 4,306,067 in the English Misplaced Pages, around half of which are stubs; no need to obsess over just one of them. -- llywrch (talk) 16:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

This has all been said before, and yet it continues, almost 3 years later, without any resolution. Ignocrates (talk) 22:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Ignocrates, I read all of the ARBCOM statements from cases Ebionites1 and Ebionites2 along with ANIs, DRs and RfCs, although the harshness of the language varies according to the audience. It is hard to see how those involved can "get past" the damaging words that have been said. I would find it hard if I was the target. Maybe, at this point, an IBan would be best? Unless the parties can forgive, forget and move on...because if these conduct disputes reach ARBCOM, tougher penalties will be involved. Newjerseyliz (talk) 22:22, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Can you take this bull by the horns and help to resolve this? Contrary to what John Carter seems to believe, I don't hate him at all and never have. Frankly, all I feel for him at this point is pity and sadness. He really needs some help. Ignocrates (talk) 22:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

(e-c) The fact that one somewhat biased party hasn't looked to see the repeated violation of both conduct and content guidelines, honestly, means nothing. Neither does his own attempt to justify his actions through the statements of others.

FWIW, you have apparently not reviewed the regular, almost incessant harassment by Ignocrates, who has described his editing as a "penance" as well, presumably taking the form of promotion of a group which has, despite my own and his best efforts to find them, apparently never appeared gotten anything like sufficient RS coverage to qualify for an article. The fact that you have apparently not even looked to, let alone looked past, the fairly regular misconduct of Ignocrates and Ret. Prof. causes me to perhaps conclude that your assessment is, well, lob-sided, based on only recent activity. I believe, honestly, misconduct of all sorts has been steadier and more regular from them than from me. Ret. Prof. also has been, as per previous versions of his user page, not only "continuing the fight" for the non-RS Tabor book and others, and has been repeatedly advised/warned by others about his misconduct, yes, even to Ignocrates himself twice requesting a single-person filed RfC/U against him. Honestly, given the stonewalling of Ovadyah/Ignocrates during the second mediation, when Tabor and the EJC were being considered for removal from the article as non-notable and non-reliable (which they have been from the beginning), and Ret. Prof.'s own misconduct elsewhere. It is also worth noting that Ignocrates has, pretty much since his return from retirement as Ovadyah, been pretty much pathological about attacking me on and off, presumably because I ruined his "penance" of trying to use wikipedia as an advertisement for his favorite non-notable group and his favorite non-RS James Tabor. The fact that he has, to date, so far as I can tell, not only never edited anything not relating to the "James" hypothesis, and has also, apparently, misrepresented sources, like Ret. Prof., leads me to think that the only way to resolve his own ongoing misconduct is through ArbCOm. Yes, he is a master of posturing, and has, ever since being Ovadyah, regularly talked down to anyone who disagrreed with him, indicating to my eyes there is a very real problem of ego and, yes, pathology there. And, unfortunately, I think if one were to review most of Ret. Prof.'s edits, one might find them just as problematic as the misrepresentation of sources and his also, rather apparent, almost obsession with thinking single books not referenced in anything else but reviews require being in articles if the reviews were not negative. In all honesty, when and if the ArbCom reviews this, I believe there is a very good chance, a probability actually, that Ignocrates will be seriously restricted from editing, and that, very likely, Ret. Prof. will be as well. I wish either one of them were apparently capable, or even interested, in doing anything other than, overtly or covertly, trying to promote books or websites or beliefs that really don't qualify as notable in and of themselves. But, in the history of both of them since I first encountered them, despite my actually having tried to encourage at least Ret. Prof. and I think Ovadyah while he still was Ovadyah to either try to get their views notable in a clear way or edit something else, they both, basically, refused to do so. If penalties are invoked by ArbCom, honestly, fine by me. That would also include almost certainly discretionary sanctions, and that's what I think is most clearly needed here. John Carter (talk) 22:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, John Carter, it takes two people to work on resolving a dispute and you clearly have no interest in aiming at a collaboration so you could work together or at least, work peaceably on the same articles at different times. I guess you are hellbent on seeing this through to the bitter, bitter end so do what you got to do.

By the way, I've gone back years and saw instances where Ignocrates was sarcastic and was openly hostile to you and others. But ARBCOM is more concerned with recent history, not five years ago and Ignocrates has lately turned his focus off you and on to editing. I wish you could do the same but sometimes, I guess conflict is intractable. I wish ARBCOM luck in sorting through the long, tangled history of this dispute. Newjerseyliz (talk) 22:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Since Ret.Prof's name has been invoked twice now with respect to two RFC/Us I recommended, it needs to be restated that (1) he was fully informed of my proposals (the second time by email), and (2) I emphasized both times that the purpose was instructional. I consider Ret.Prof to be a friend, and I only wish the best for him including on Misplaced Pages. Ignocrates (talk) 22:35, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

You should also see Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Ebionites/archive1 and other links to that page, where he not only said he as Ovadyah thought he had the right to add his opinions if he got it to FA, but also once again resorted to the rather silly, delusional posturing which is more or less his tradmark. John Carter (talk)

I feel badly about Ret. Prof. He sincerely listened to criticism and responded to critiques but I think he took too much to heart. He didn't want to work in an adversarial environment. To be honest, Ignocrates, I came across comments when you were at odds with him, too. But the important aspect is that you were able to move past your differences and collaborate. Ultimately, I think that is what groups like ARBCOM want to see, constructive, not obstructionist behavior. Newjerseyliz (talk) 22:43, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The reason Ignocrates was willing to work with him was because, as per the hsitory of Ret. Prof.'s user page, Ret. Prof. was "continuing the fight" for Tabor. Ovadyah was, and I think probably still is, passionately in love with one of the few sources which apparently says anything which might reflect the views of the EJC. Yes, after the first arbitration, when Michael was banned, Ovadyah was able to work with him too, for the purposes of keeping some mention of the non-notable neo-Ebionitism that they both were passionately supporting in the article. Willing to work with people willing to, basically, violate guidelines with you in collusion really doesn't to my eyes qualify as being a positive. ArbCom will also, when it gets to them, see how Ret. Prof. was basically primarily supporting him, and it takes no particular character for one POV pusher to agree with someone pushing the same POV when it looks to be in danger of losing out per policy and guidelines. John Carter (talk) 22:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Your apparent obsession with James Tabor is, frankly, incomprehensible. That is no way to treat a notable scholar Talk:The Jesus_Dynasty#Tabor's religious bias and fellow Wikipedian User_talk:Jdtabor. There are far bigger problems here than just with me as an editor. You also neglected to mention that the editor who created the neo-Ebionite section of the Ebionites article was -- you, John Carter. Ignocrates (talk) 23:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Diff? Details? Relevance? Was it, perhaps, a way to get the material off the Ebionites article, and might the IP that was apparently Shemaiah's statement he didn't want a separate article involved in other's opinions. Not that I would expect them, because, honestly, the above comment seems to be just another attempt at diversion from the crucial issue. And, regarding the knee-jerk defense of Tabor, as has been repeatedly demonstrated at RSN and elsewhere, The Jesus Dynasty fails to meet RS standards. Although, of course, I understand the absolute need to defend the opinions which are so clearly favored by the neo-Ebionite community, which you apparently represent, at any cost, even to the point of making basically completely off-topic and irrelevant comments as the one above to serve as distractions. Also, I was referring to the attempt to recreate the Ebionite Jewish Community, again, which you were apparently involved wanting recreated, even if it did violate policies and guidelines. John Carter (talk) 23:49, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

From WP:CIR"Some people get so upset over a past dispute that they look at everything through a lens of "So-and-so is a bad editor and is out to get me." Taken to extremes, this easily becomes quite disruptive. An enforced parole of "don't interact with this other editor" may be something to try in these cases."

As I said, I do not think ARBCOM will be well-inclined to be re-re-visiting this same area for a third time. They will be looking at whether editors have matured over the past six years and the inability to let go of past differences is not a good sign.

But it is definitely time to move this conversation off my Talk Page and into ARBCOM or DRN or wherever this is headed. Newjerseyliz (talk) 23:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

FYI, there is a new ArbCom principle, mandated editor review, which allows editors to only make changes to an article after it has been approved by an independent admin. I have a feeling that might well happen here. Also, FWIW, I have in the past contacted editors who have retired, even Ovadyah, after he seemingly retired admitting his own lack of competence, and User:Lung salad, who, honestly, was also according to his response e-mail, forwarded to ArbCom, apparently in violation of conduct guidelines from day one on the Josephus on Jesus content. It would certainly be possible for you to try to e-mail Ret. Prof. and advise him to perhaps come back, although I might suggest that he concentrate perhaps a bit more on material that is clearly notable and of sufficient independent notable content that it wouldn't violate OR/SYNTH. We could use another few editors in religion, although, given his history, I think his focus on minor topics probably makes him one we can function without, at least if he acts the same way he did earlier. John Carter (talk) 23:49, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I admitted nothing of the kind. However, I was contacted by email by John Carter, after I announced my retirement and ceased editing, and explicitly threatened. Ignocrates (talk) 23:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Good lord, man, have you ever learned to read, or is your blind rage about Tabor being determined non-RS and the EJC non-notable incapable of you even being able to read. I was, I thought, rather clearly indicating it was Lung salad who was in violation of policy. And yes, I did indicate after your own e-mail, referring to me in the most ridiculous and frankly juvenile insults I have ever encountered from an alleged adult, say that if you came back I would request sanctions against you. When you did return, honestly, I gave you a bit of a chance, based on the idea that you may have grown up a little. Of course, I could not have been more mistaken in that point, and that is why you are going to ArbCom shortly. John Carter (talk) 00:18, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Liz, I feel for you to have this ongoing feud spill over onto your talk page. I hope this does not sour you on Misplaced Pages. However, this feud has gotten to the point where something must be done, since neither party seem to be able to disengage & let this matter go.--llywrch (talk) 06:01, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree, llywrch. This is not about content or contributions but about editor conduct now. It's been going on for 6+ years, has already been through the ARBCOM request process twice (along with other RfCs and dispute resolution noticeboards) but it seems destined to head to ARBCOM again. While I'm sad to see that this dispute seems irreconcilable, I hope ARBCOM can definitively end this feud. NewJerseyLiz 18:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I believe the irreconciliability is due to one party flouting policies and guidelines for the purposes of POV pushing, if even subtle and less than obvious POV pushing, which is why I believe it will go to ArbCom. But, if you wish some sort of (admittedly, weak) attempt at throwing out an olive branch, you seem to be involved in the topic of Sociology, which is like some others a bit problematic because it isn't, well, cut and dried like some hard sciences. I live in a major city with several really good libraries. If there are any groups like WikiProject Sociology or others you might be interested in seeing lists of articles for, let me know. And, also, FWIW, Ret. Prof. does apparently have e-mailed enabled, so if you were to want I think you might be able to drop him a note requesting his return. like I have with a few others. Sometimes it can be helpful. John Carter (talk) 23:17, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, at this point, it's up to ARBCOM to sort out (if you are going to file). I think this dispute has been talked to death, with no resolution in sight.

As for WikiProject Sociology, the last time I looked, there were only 3 or 4 people signed up for it and they weren't all regular editors. It's in such bad shape, it's hard to know where to start. NewJerseyLiz 00:20, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Speaking from some degree of experience of projects in general, that minimal number isn't that atypical. And even some huger projects, like Christianity, have a lot of people signed up, but not that many actively involved. Unfortunately. Regarding a lot of the "soft" topics, like psychology, sociology, virtually anything new-agey, and the paranormal in all its varieties, there tend to be quite a few people who have indicated an interest, often in promoting their local minister or their own particular beliefs, who show less interest in anything else, and, when they've done what they set out to do as well as they can, kinda disappear. A lot of the lists I've made so far, like the Jehovah's Witnesses list and the list of Ethiopian Christianity articles (written by someone who knows Ge'ez and French rather well, but not so much English, to the point that subject and verb rather regularly disagreed and sometimes I couldn't be sure what he was even talking about), those reference sources aren't considered extraordinarily good by anyone, but they are, seemingly, about the only ones out there on the topic. I think I looked over the Encyclopedia of Sociology some time ago, and, if I am right in assuming it's considered OK, I can try to generate a list based on it in the next few weeks. Getting some sort of newsletter like the MILHIST Bugle together for maybe some closely related groups in that field might work too, and maybe, like MILHIST, getting some sort of content going with barnstar awards. Ultimately, on finishing the "religion" related lists, I'm somewhat hoping to go on to those other, "soft science" groups as well, along with South America, Africa, Oceania, and a few other important but comparatively neglected and underdeveloped topics. Anyway, if I get tired of looking at the Jones edition of the EoR (which happens a lot now) and just want to look at something which doesn't go on about rituals and sexual symbolism of, depending on the individual culture, damn near everything, I might just do it as a bit of a change of pace. John Carter (talk) 14:51, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Michaelzeng7 (talk) 03:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Michaelzeng7 (talk) 13:57, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!

Very tedious job, so it's always nice to get positive feedback :-) Serendious 15:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I can imagine. Tracking Twitter trends exposed me to a lot of music fan gushing that I wish hadn't eaten up as much time as it did. I'd be happy to never see another Excel spreadsheet but I know they are unavoidable. Your work is appreciated! Newjerseyliz (talk) 17:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Took your advice

I took your advice and went to WP:NPOV/N. Please keep a watch on Gospel of the Ebionites. Thanks. Ignocrates (talk) 23:53, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Good luck with that. It seems like you guys have gone round and round on these issues. I hope you get some definitive answers. Newjerseyliz (talk) 01:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I am super-impressed with how professional the guys have been at NPOV/N. The feedback has been useful and at the very least it's due diligence for the next round of dispute resolution. Ignocrates (talk) 04:54, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Tammy Duckworth

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Thanks

Thank you so much for your comments on the ANI board at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Request_for_CIR_enforcement. I was in abject despair about the way so many ganged up on me without cause. To have a little common sense applied was (to me) like giving water to a man in the desert. I really do hope it's caused others to stop and have pause for thought. SonofSetanta (talk) 09:25, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, you're welcome, SonofSetanta. That got really ugly. I've been reading a lot of noticeboards and dispute resolution cases lately and it seems like half of the time, the conversation boomerangs back on to the OP and he or she ends up facing sanctions for bringing a case to a noticeboard. The OP becomes the topic of discussion instead of the original complaint that is filed.

It seems unfair that 3 or 4 vocal opponents in an ANI can generate a topic ban when the original question was on something else entirely. I'm so glad that the people reading the page could see the transparent attack upon you. Liz 18:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Sorry I missed seeing this when you first posted it. It's time to move some discussion on my Talk Page. Liz 18:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Roger Waters

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Teahouse talkback: you've got messages!

Assigning religious affiliation to editors

I didn't expect my comment to In ictu oculi to have such "legs". It was really just a corrective statement directed to him, to be more careful with language, and not a condemnation of him or any other party. Every single person has their own biases but at least in the Misplaced Pages universe, we try to set aside biases in the interest of obtaining accurate representations, regardless of our personal allegiances. I apologize to Iio if my words came across as reproving or harsh. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 21:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

No they came off as ill-informed and justifying sectioning another editor's Talk posts (no matter how silly) "JW views." The comment about imagine "Jew" was particularly silly if you're not intending to follow it up on those actually JW-hounding and instead support the behaviour. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:48, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I just expected you to either accept or reject my apology for coming across as harsh but I still maintain that your language revealed a bias. I should have left out the part of adding the "e" to J and W but it was to illustrate a point that no one could get away with an antiSemitic comment but JWs seem fair game to some. This is not news on Misplaced Pages, I see the same kind of statements when people are talking about other sectarian religious movements. NewJerseyLiz 01:55, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, so don't support editors hounding JWs. Practise what you preach, rather than criticising others who do do what you preach. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:07, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I thought you said you object to talking behind the back of other editors? And then, you say practise what you preach? Anyway...

Indicating a particular view as that of JWs or Jews or any other group doesn't express a personal judgement of any editor. But the old thread explicitly stated that 607 is a JW teaching anyway. Refactoring the page was in fact uncontroversial, and hardly tantamount to saying 'none of us like JWs'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Your edit history shows otherwise per WP:SPA. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I do not need explain or justify my involvement on the JW WikiProject to you.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

And you are misusing WP:SPA. It states: "Whom not to tag (SPA tagging guidelines) ... Editing only within a single broad topic: When identifying single-purpose accounts, it is important to consider what counts as a diverse group of edits. For example, subjects like spiders, nutrition, baseball, and geometry are diversified topics within themselves. If a user only edits within a broad topic, this does not mean the user is an SPA."--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Practise what you preach ...I try to. And I will criticize discriminatory language when I see it. If one lets comments like "we don't like JWs" go unaddressed, then people assume that everyone agrees with that statement. And I think it's important to point out bias when we see it. I don't think one needs complete knowledge of and participation in a dispute to recognize words of prejudice. I don't see my role as being a watchdog for JW editors or those who dislike them.

What I was apologizing was not what I said but how I said it. But, for some reason, you take my admission of error as an invitation to provoke me, which is a puzzling reaction. Most people would say, "No problem, I understood what you meant" or "Thanks, but that was hurtful." My intention was to ease any tensions between us, In ictu oculi, not continue the debate between you and Jeffro77 on to this Talk Page. NewJerseyLiz 13:33, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Jeffro, he more or less is an SPA, although I think in large part the reason behind it is not a particular obsession with the topic, but a realization over the years that the content regarding the JWs needs a lot of independent oversight. Unfortunately, for a lot of groups, including just about any that have ever been called "cults", we more or less need to have people like that on those topics. On the comparatively few occasions when I have interacted with him on topics not related to the JWs, like on a template on Christian heresies, he has been as reasonable and objective as anyone else, and even in that particular case AFAIK indicated he didn't want to see any modern groups included, including the JWs, although in a lot of regards they resemble groups which were tagged as "heretical" in early Christianity, so I don't think he has anything against them particularly. But, yeah, particularly today, with the frikkin 4 million articles of various standards of notability, and more being created, on pretty much anything, I regret that we probably need more informed, comparatively neutral SPAs like Jeffro watching over some topics than we have. And, as someone who has gotten a bit of a bashing over the years at least in part because of his efforts to keep the JW content NPOV, so far as I can remember primarily from those within the group rather than without, I can imagine that he might well once in a while get a little tetchy. I wish no one were ever in that situation around here, but things being what they are, in some cases it is bound to happen. John Carter (talk) 15:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with much of what you say, John. I'm more sympathetic than you to NRMs and sects because I spent a fair amount of time studying them and working as a research assistant to a NRM scholar. On topics like religion, it is almost impossible to be completely free of bias, even when you are writing about a religious tradition that is not your own.

I think the important thing is be aware of your own bias and keep it in check. I was in a graduate program where the concepts of Epoché, Weltanschauung and Verstehen was drilled into us which and they mean that you accept but try to set aside your bias (positive or negative) when researching religion and you respect the religious traditions of others even if they are not meaningful or valid for you, personally. As far as writing about religion on Misplaced Pages, it seems like one advantage of open source knowledge is that articles benefit from the contributions of both insiders and outsiders. They both have viewpoints that can offer others some understanding. NewJerseyLiz 16:32, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

For the most part, I agree. Unfortunately, around here, we sometimes get into trouble with some topics when either the number of editors with one POV outnumber, are more dedicated, or are sometimes, simply, so difficult to deal with that they manage to take over the content one way or another. Scientology is probably the best example of that here, although Falun Gong comes close. Personally, from some comments I've seen recently, early Christianity seems to be at this point pretty much at the same level of difficulty in various ways. We really can't tell editors from one side or another en masse to "go away," and I don't think many of us (except those dedicated to the "other" side in those discussions) would really even want to ask them to do it, but I think, looking over the various topics which have discretionary sanctions on them, there is a very large percentage of them which deal with "beliefs" of some kind among them, religious or secular. I hope we can get some guidelines about such content together soon, and, actually, because requests from ArbCom tend to get more attention and response than others, that's one of the reasons I'm going to file a case on this. Some people might say, not unreasonably, that me and some others should have written them already, but a look at some previous attempts can indicate how quickly some previous discussions derailed. Also, honestly, I ain't the best person for writing such anyway, having never really taken part in many guidelines or policies discussions before. But, with luck, maybe we can make things a bit easier to work with soon. John Carter (talk) 18:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

—Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Masters in Religious Studies - Thank you for being here

Honestly, if you ever want to consider becoming the coordinator of WikiProject Christianity (which I am to date the only elected lead coordinator of, us never having had enough candidates to do it again), or WikiProject Religion, you would have my vote, and, maybe, as many other fraudulent votes as I could get through the system. Thank you for returning. John Carter (talk) 16:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Wow, I'm terribly flattered, John. I have an MA in Religious Studies and a MPhil in Religion and Society (Sociology of Religion) so I approach religion from a secular perspective, not a theological one. The focus of my work was studying divisions and conflict within contemporary American denominations, and, secondarily, Religions in North American and NRMs (most of which couldn't be called "Christian"). But I'm not sure I'm equipped to handle editors (either veteran or IP visitors) who want to rewrite church history or who hate Catholics or who forget that Eastern Orthodoxy exists or who are atheists and want to put everything "religious" in quotation marks because they see it as questionable.

Can you tell me about your participation in WikiProject Christianity and how it stands today? I'm happy to handle organizing or negotiate disputes but if things are very divisive, it might be a bad time for a newbie to take on larger responsibilities because the situation is in flux.

I'm also not sure if this dispute between you, Ignocrates and Ret.Prof is about differences of opinion (regarding COI and RS) and past misconduct, or if it reflects a broader rift between editors who work on articles in this area. If it is the former, I think an ARBCOM decision can decide things but if there are fundamental divides based on theological differences, I think someone with more experience should probably take this on.

If you could give me your candid opinions on any of these questions, I'll consider it. Thanks again for asking. NewJerseyLiz 18:42, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is more or less what you're talking, not so much coordination. Although I'm not that familiar with WP:MILHIST, which is much better run than any of the religion groups, and has made us from what I've seen the best military website out there, the coordinators try to more or less get people to work together, getting assessments done, article development, contests, that sort of thing. As an individual, I really am more the lone wolf-type, and I know I come across as a smug, self-satisfied dictator a lot more than I probably like to as a result. Regarding the recent problems you mention above, that's more I think about content and the rules here than conduct. I've tried to find independent sources which support or give much attention to the Butz theory of James, which was one of Ret. Prof.'s first topics of major concern, but haven't. I also tried to find sources for Ovadyah/Ignocrates' Ebionite Jewish Community/Ebionite Community, but even it's local paper hasn't had anything on it from what I can see in the databanks. While there is a theological dispute involved, in some sense, so far as I can tell, it is about a theological position which, to the best of my knowledge and understanding here, doesn't meet notability in and of itself, and which we can't put forward without violating, to some degree, OR/SYNTH. If I knew of any independent reliable sources which gave sufficient content in them linking Tabor, and Butz, and Robert Eisenman, and god knows all the others so that we could have one article or even section of an article on the "Jewish James hypothesis," about how James led a much more Jewish version of Christianity which has died out and might at some point resurface, a lot of the problems would be solved. But I don't know of any, and neither of them has ever come forward with any that I can remember either. There might be some sort of church out there, like the EJC and maybe others, which actually themselves put forward some version of the hypothesis, but I couldn't find any in the Melton Encyclopedia of American Religions or any other similar sources I looked in, so I can't say that there is even a notable theory there. I wish, but, to the best of my ability to determine it, what they seem to want is something I wouldn't myself mind seeing here, and as indicated above I even, assuming good faith and some sort of independent coverage on the neo-Ebionite groups, created an article on the neo-Ebionites, which was deleted as non-notable. There are a lot of web churches out there, unfortunately, many of which haven't been referenced in any independent RS's, and so far as I can tell the groups and theories they want to promote are among them. The fact that, unfortunately, both seem to believe that their material should be included anyway is a problem, and I think per policy and guidelines not acceptable, even if I myself wish that there were enough material for inclusion of them as per policies and guidelines. John Carter (talk) 19:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Two things: Gordon Melton is the researcher I worked for, years ago, he is a walking encyclopedia, he knows so much. He's an independent scholar but he donated this enormous library to UCSB and I worked with him on archiving the collection. Second, we had an awesome professor of Early Christianity at UCSB but he always got mixed teaching evaluations because the students who enrolled in his courses were taught scripture studies from a theological perspective, not a historical perspective. It was troubling to them when he showed them how much doubt existed about the primary sources that exist in this field of scholarship. I think it's actually a more controversial area to work in than Scientology...with Scientology, you can clearly see pro- and con- bias but with Early Christianity, you really need to have a familiarity with ancient languages to assess the arguments of scholars. NewJerseyLiz 19:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Do not repeat that I more or less regard Melton as almost some sort of prophet for us here, given the amazing amount of extremely highly regarded reference works he has put out. With any luck, if the Arb is accepted, one of the things that might happen is that we will have some editors from outside religion and "beliefs" maybe working on guidelines for that area, which we don't have yet. I certainly plan to ask for such, and we might be able to get together, maybe, some sort of idea of how to deal with web churches. I hope so. Previous attempts at guideline drafting got sidetracked rather quickly, unfortunately, by some individual editors with very strong opinions. That's why I'm hoping the more, well, serious nature of a request from ArbCom to draft guidelines, we might be able to get something together which people might at least accept. And, personally, I do hope for some way to get included some web faiths, like the modern form of Deism, which is extensively mentioned at Examiner.com, which is neither independent or reliable by our standards, but so far as I can see not yet discussed in any independent sources such that we would have much reason to have content on it. John Carter (talk) 19:52, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

No, it's no secret that Gordon is "the man"! The man basically started collecting material on NRMs starting in the early 1970s and never threw anything away! Then, he started going back to gather older historical documents and not only that, he remembers every conversation he's had and everything he's read. The only people who don't care for him are the most strident anti-cult folks because he had an open door policy...he'd organize a conference and ask people from NRMs to come and talk about their beliefs and societies and some people who hate cults (not specific ones, just cults in general) thought he was giving them a platform to evangelize. But the NRM reps. still had to write up a standard academic presentation so it's not like they were trying to convert anyone in the audience. But for some people, choosing not to judge others is seen as evidence that you agree with them which is just not the case. 20:06, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: 2013 New Haven Open at Yale – Doubles

Hello Newjerseyliz. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of 2013 New Haven Open at Yale – Doubles, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: That notable people are playing in it is a good indication of notability. Needs to be PRODded or taken to AfD. Thank you. GedUK  11:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

That's fair, GedUK . Feel free to object and move it to somewhere more appropriate. It seemed to me to be a local sporting event and I didn't see it's significance for Misplaced Pages. Lots of communities have golf tournaments or marathons or tennis tournaments and don't have a Misplaced Pages page about it. But I could be wrong. Good luck! Liz 18:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newjerseyliz (talk • contribs)

Valerie Sutton

I see that you succeeded in getting the article on Valerie Sutton deleted. It is absolutely stupid things like this that are why I hardly ever edit Misplaced Pages anymore and stick to Wikia, where I don't run into such things.

VS created a system to record movement. It is now used by many people. I do not see how you could possibly consider the article, as written, to be nothing but a promotion for her systems. It was purely a biography and a history of how the system of movement writing came to be designed.

The article was no more a promotion than a biography of Henry Ford is a commercial for Ford cars, or a biography of Bill Gates a commercial for Microsoft.

You've given me one more reason not to bother editing on Misplaced Pages. -- BRG (talk) 12:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry if my action is part of the reason why you might quit editing on Misplaced Pages, BRG. The reason for the article deletion was:

"G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion: image is copyright, "refs" are spamlinks, not independent, don'tsupport text support.

You can always appeal a deletion, of course (nothing is ever truly deleted!). I know that deleted pages can be restored if an editor can say they will address the problems that existed in the article. I don't know the specific page to go to so I'd suggest asking Jimfbleak for clarification about this deletion. NewJerseyLiz 12:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

It is hard to "address the problems that existed in the article" because I cannot figure out what words you found to be "unambiguous advertising or promotion." I can't for the life of me figure out what words led you to characterize it as such.

By not stating where you found words that were "promotional," you gave me no way to defend the article specifically. It's blind-side attacks like this that make me disinclined to do anything on Misplaced Pages except correct typos and stuff like that. --BRG (talk) 03:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

BRG, I tagged the article because it was self-promotional, it read like a fan page and had few references. But I don't believe you have to rebut my reasons for tagging it, just make a good argument about why it shouldn't have been deleted.

But as I said above, I recommend you contact Jimfbleak for clarification as he was the user who actually deleted the article. Liz 13:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

—Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Natalie Tran

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LGBT guidelines

Hey, just checking if you saw my response to your post about LGBT categorization guidelines. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, my, Roscelese, thanks for letting me know. I did some work with CfD in late July and there didn't seem to be a lot of movement so I hadn't checked back. Now I will! Is this in WP:EGRS? Liz 18:36, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I didn't see any response to my question at WP:EGRS so maybe you can point me to the right page. Thanks! Liz 18:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:55, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Roscelese, I also posted this question at WP:EGRS and I believe BLP (maybe the WikiProject on Actors, too). I posted a reply to you at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject LGBT studies.

I thought this really was an issue for WP LGBT to decide but since you're giving me the only feedback I've received, I might take it to the RSN and see what they say. They are pretty responsive but I think I already know how they will answer (documentation is required). Liz 21:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Liz/Whiteboard

Hello Liz,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Liz/Whiteboard for deletion, because it seems to be a test. Did you know that the Misplaced Pages Sandbox is available for testing out edits?

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. TheLongTone (talk) 11:52, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

TheLongTone, I just decided to call my Sandbox page "Whiteboard" instead. I've seen some users with dozens of sub-pages with different kinds of names (one user calls their Sandbox "Litterbox" instead) so I'm surprised that this page has even gotten the attention of any other users besides myself. Liz 11:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Liz. All fixed up. See

• User:Liz/Whiteboard
• User talk:Liz/Whiteboard

Any problems, please let me know. Peter aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Shirt58! Have a great day. Full moon tonight! ;-) Liz 13:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Icons

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Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Icons

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Thought you would enjoy this link quoting Morwen

http://www.buzzfeed.com/justinesharrock/wikipedia-changed-its-entry-to-properly-reflect-chelsea-mann

Morwen also blogged here: http://abigailbrady.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/chelsea-manning-on-pressing-button.html

--\/\/slack (talk) 04:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, \/\/slack! I just finished reading it. I appreciate the alert! Liz 12:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Prince George of Cambridge

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Wikidata weekly summary #72

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  • Hack on one of these.

Discussion at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission

You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)Template:Z48

By the way

If you're interested in the evolution of the Vatican position on homosexuality you should definitely join the discussion/fray at Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism! I've been mostly staying outside of the doctrinal bits other than to revert obvious factual inaccuracies, but you sound like you have more knowledge of the subject. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, that is a complicated mess, Roscelese. I was more on top of things in the 1980s when I was living in San Francisco and all I know is that JPII later issued more compassionate statements and less about homosexuality as a "disorder". But I'll check in and look over the conversation. I'm just not up, right now, on the most recent official documents. Liz 13:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Valerie Sutton

I posted the deleted text here. If you want to check, all I've removed is an image which appears not to be copyright-free. I can't believe that there are TWO users (at least) with that irritating hummingbird!!!! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Jimfbleak. I didn't mean to pass the buck but I couldn't recall too many particulars of that article.

As for the hummingbird, maybe it's time to move that to my sandbox. Kind of MySpacey, I guess. Liz 15:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

RfC

Hi Liz, I noticed you are signed up for the feedback request service. You may want to comment on this RfC Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews#Scope of this article and the GA nomination as well. Ignocrates (talk) 16:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, my, Ignocrates, I'm not sure I want to step back into this dispute! I thought things had quieted down. I'll check in and look at the discussion but I'm not a biblical scholar so I'm not a master of ancient texts. Thank's for the head's up...I think. ;-) Liz 17:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

This is not that same tired old dispute. This is a new dispute. Why stop at just one! :0D Ignocrates (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

But still the same people arguing, Ignocrates? Liz 18:09, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, there is that little problem. You can get the monkey off your back, but the circus stays in town forever. Ignocrates (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see an "argument," I see from my end a reasonable question about the scope. Of course, I can see how some people would try to avoid dealing with that question, and how that might cause them to make it an "argument," rather than a reasonable discussion about what the article should cover.

The question here seems to me to be about the content of the article more than anything else. There are at least two works which have been called "Gospel of the Hebrews," one being that source (or those sources) generally referred to as such by scholars today and at least one other called by that name by Jerome. Honestly, as they themselves never really indicated that they were referring to the same book, there is some question whether we should make that assumption either. Honestly, I don't know, but I would assume that if the ABD discusses them both (or all) in the same article first, and then describes the way that scholarship arrived at its current basic consensus, that there were two (at least) and that one seems to be similar (if not identical) to the Gospel of the Nazoreans, that being the one Jerome talked about, and, finally, coming to conclusions (admittedly not supported by any direct evidence) about what can be gathered about the remaining material, if it is all about the same source. The ABD says this is one of the most "vexing problems in the study of early Christian literature," so I think most people would agree with you that it is a thorny one, but it is also, I think, based on that, a very relevant matter. But, yeah, it is a thorny matter, and I can well imagine that others might not want to weigh in on something even academia isn't really sure about. John Carter (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

You are forgetting that PiCo worked hard to fix up this article, and part of that fix involved restricting the scope. Since then the article has been remarkably stable (until now). That was the point of pulling out all the Hebrew Gospel material: to put an end to the ceaseless edit-warring. The "vexing problems" were moved to the parent Jewish-Christian gospels article where text-critical issues involving both the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Gospel of the Nazoraeans are considered together. Ignocrates (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

John, you make some valid points and this debate should really happen on Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews#Scope of this article not my Talk Page as I am far from an authority on scriptural texts. I've done some work with archival material but none of it involved ancient religious texts. Liz 18:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Georgian alphabet

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Claims to be the fastest-growing religion

This article, and the related deletion discussion, might be in your field, and I think it would probably welcome additional outsider input. John Carter (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, John Carter. That is an extremely hard statistic to determine unless you are limiting your study to a well-defined geographic region where there is a history of data collection on religion (which is not common). Many people rely on churches estimates of membership which are variable and unreliable data. Liz 20:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it is supposed to be about the factual statistic, but the various claims made by, oh, purty much everybody, it looks like, to qualify as the fastest growing group. And, yeah, I've seen quite a few such claims myself. Also, while I'm bugging you here, I was wondering what you might think about Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Theology. There is a separate and closely related concept, Thealogy, and, considering the apparent inactivity of that project, whether it might be best merged into the Religion WikiProject. I would support such a merge myself, but I honestly don't know whether we should use the existing name, or maybe change it to a more inclusive title, which wouldn't seem to rule out religious philosophy relating to a goddess, which is, I think, what thealogy is supposed to be. John Carter (talk) 20:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, John, I would leave topics regarding Feminist Spirituality alone (see Talk:Thealogy#Oppose_the_Merger). They very clearly set out a separate space from mainstream patriarchal religions and trying to subsume them under a Theology banner would not respect that and would seem WP:POINTY. It doesn't matter if not one has worked on it recently. Feel free to place a template on it that it needs improvement or post a question suggesting it on the Talk Page but Categories are political (see WP:EGRS). I just think there are plenty projects you could work on that wouldn't stir up a hornet's nest!

Personally, I'm more interested in dull things like determining membership and conflict in leadership structures in religious organization (religion, modern history and sociology). While I identify as a feminist, feminist spirituality isn't my thing. But I respect how important it is to some women and as long as the articles have proper references, I would let the people who care, define their own terms rather than imposing a conformity on to them. Liz 22:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I only mentioned it because you said you were involved in NRMs, and to my eyes, as someone who doesn't know a lot of NRM topics that well, it looked like it might be basically related to the scope of the inactive Theology project, maybe enough to perhaps rename that project if it were "merged" into the parent Religion project, if it were in the scope, for "neutrality" purposes. Also, FWIW, having seen you want to eventually become an admin, I think weighing in on discussions like you have been in some fields will really help a lot, but that there are people who seem to indicate that they want more people involved in content development as admins. Also, I think it is great that we have something interested in the history and organization of groups, which don't get that much attention in general around here. If you think that maybe I could help in maybe getting some sources you might want on some related topic, just let me know. John Carter (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 21 August 2013

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 05:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

"...it's crucial to listen to what they have to say about their experience on WP..."

FYI. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Editor Retention/Soliloquies may be interesting to you. ```Buster Seven Talk 05:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, ```Buster Seven, I'll check it out! Liz 09:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Shooting of Trayvon Martin

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Details on my talk

Second set of details on my talk. PumpkinSky talk 00:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, PumpkinSky! Liz 00:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

New Teahouse message

Yo, Liz, I've answered your latest Teahouse question. (I kinda doubt you need talkbacks, but figured I'd give you a non-template one, just in case.) :) Writ Keeper (WK to move) ⚇♔ 15:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Much appreciated, Writ Keeper! ;-) Liz 18:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Whisperback

Hello. You have a new message at Miss Bono's talk page. Miss Bono 17:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Curious

Hi, Liz ... I've been seeing you around everywhere, and I'm just stopping by to let you know that the story being told about Raul/FAC on Pumpkinsky's page is ... one person's version at the most charitable. If you are interested in following some facts, you might start here, where you will find that Pumpkinsky (whose former identity was not revealed until well into the four RFCs) had joined with a very small handful of other now-banned or indef-blocked socks and users who were bearing grudges and attempting to force a change in leadership at FAC ... a proposed change that was rejected in four different RFCs, including the largest one, here:

• Misplaced Pages:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership

Once those four RFCs failed to yield the results that small group wanted, the "battleground" (literally) moved over to WP:TFAR, and they eventually succeeded in chasing off Raul, before several of them were banned or uncovered as socks, which is why your queries likely went unanswered. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

"I've been seeing you around everywhere..."

You don't say this like it's a good thing, SandyGeorgia!

I just ran across Raul's name on several pages, he was still being listed as the current editor/director in charge but when I went to his page, it showed he hadn't been active since February 2013. So, I was curious and when his name came up in comments, I inquired what the story was. But I'm not taking sides and realize I might be hearing one side of the story. I just recently went from being an uninvolved, casual editor to one who wants to understand how things like the ARBCOM and AN/I works and is trying to find some aspect of Misplaced Pages (AfD, CfD, AfC, etc.) where I can put my effort.

But I do appreciate you taking the time to come to my Talk Page and tell me your understanding of what occurred. I'm still figuring things out and so any information is good to know. Liz 17:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

You don't say this like it's a good thing, ...

I'm not sure how I left that impression, but not at all! Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I didn't mean to read anything into it, SandyGeorgia. I have been self-conscious about weighing in on different forums when I was a pretty uninvolved, isolated editor. In one embarrassing incident, I explained to another user how to file a RfD when it turns out they were very experienced. So, I'm kind of bumbling my way through the deeper levels of Misplaced Pages (or, as I call it, "Misplaced Pages: Editing Beyond Typos"). Liz 18:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

With a bazillion edits, I never quite made it to the "beyond typos" part! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm still basically the same. I've seen some editors lecturing people that they should pick an area of Misplaced Pages and concentrate on improving it. I might be spreading myself too thin but I haven't felt affinity to any particular WikiProject. Liz 18:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

P.S. By the way, I stumbled into Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates/archive55 and it's more than I can get through! Looks like this was a hot topic earlier this year. Liz 18:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of Jem episodes

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WikiCup 2013 August newsletter

This year's final is upon us. Our final eight, in order of last round's score, are:

1. Hawkeye7 (submissions), a WikiCup newcomer who has contributed on topics of military history and physics, including a number of high-importance topics. Good articles have made up the bulk of his points, but he has also scored a great deal of bonus points. He has the second highest score overall so far, with more than 3000 points accumulated.
2. Casliber (submissions), another WikiCup veteran who reached the finals in 2012, 2011 and 2010. He writes on a variety of topics including botany, mycology and astronomy, and has claimed the highest or joint highest number of featured articles every round so far this year. He has the third highest score overall, with just under 3000 points accumulated.
3. Cwmhiraeth (submissions), 2012 WikiCup champion, who writes mostly on marine biology. She has also contributed to high-importance topics, seeing huge numbers of bonus points for high-importance featured and good articles. Previous rounds have seen her scoring the most bonus points, with scoring spread across did you knows, good articles and featured articles.
4. Sasata (submissions), a WikiCup veteran who finished in second place in 2012, and competed as early as 2009. He writes articles on biology, especially mycology, and has scored highly for a number of collaborations at featured article candidates.
5. Sturmvogel_66 (submissions), the winner of the 2010 competition. His contributions mostly concern Naval history, and he has scored a very large number of points for good articles and good article reviews in every round. He is the highest scorer overall this year, with over 3500 points in total.
6. Ealdgyth (submissions), who is competing in the WikiCup for the second time, though this will be her first time in the final. A regular at FAC, she is mostly interested in British medieval history, and has scored very highly for some top-importance featured articles on the topic.
7. Miyagawa (submissions), a finalist in 2012 and 2011. He writes on a broad variety of topics, with many of this year's points coming from good articles about Star Trek. Good articles make up the bulk of his points, and he had the most good articles back in round 2; he was also the highest scorer for DYK in rounds 1 and 2.
8. Adam Cuerden (submissions) has previously been involved with the WikiCup, but hasn't participated for a number of years. He scores mostly from restoration work leading to featured picture credits, but has also done some article writing and reviewing.

We say goodbye to eight great participants who did not qualify for the final: Piotrus (submissions), Figureskatingfan (submissions), ThaddeusB (submissions), Dana boomer (submissions), Status (submissions), Ed! (submissions), 12george1 (submissions), Calvin999 (submissions). Having made it to this stage is still an excellent achievement, and you can leave with your heads held high. We hope to see you all again next year. Signups are now open for the 2014 WikiCup, which will begin on 1 January. All Wikipedians, whatever their interest or level of experience, are warmly invited to participate in next year's competition.

This last month has seen some incredible contributions; for instance, Cwmhiraeth's Starfish and Ealdgyth's Battle of Hastings—two highly important, highly viewed pages—made it to featured article status. It would be all too easy to focus solely on these stunning achievements at the expense of those participants working in lower-scoring areas, when in fact all WikiCup participants are doing excellent work. A mention of everything done is impossible, but here are a few: Last round saw the completion of several good topics (on the 1958, 1959 and 1962 Atlantic hurricane seasons) to which 12george1 had contributed. Calvin999 saw "S&M" (song), on which he has been working for several years, through to featured article status on its tenth try. Figureskatingfan continued towards her goal of a broad featured/good topic on Maya Angelou, with two featured and four good articles. ThaddeusB contributed significantly to over 20 articles which appeared on the main page's "in the news" section. Adam Cuerden continued to restore a large number of historical images, resulting in over a dozen FP credits this round alone. The WikiCup is not just about top-importance featured articles, and the work of all of these users is worthy of commendation.

Finally, the usual notices: If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Reviews. If you want to help out with the WikiCup, please do your bit to reduce the review backlogs! Questions are welcome on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. J Milburn (talk • email) and The ed17 (talk • email) 05:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Persecution of indigenous peoples in Bangladesh

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Persecution of indigenous peoples in Bangladesh. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Misplaced Pages:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 16:15, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk page archiving

Just noticed the red link in the archive template at the top of this page. You might want to check that. John Carter (talk) 16:19, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, John. I am not sure at all if I have the archive code correct. I just copied it from someone else's Talk Page. Liz 19:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #73

• Discussions
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• Events/Press/Blogs
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• Did you know?
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Comments

First, I thought you might be interested in taking part at the RfC at Talk:List of new religious movements. Also, if you have anything you wish to contribute to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#John Carter, feel free to do so. John Carter (talk) 21:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

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Wikidata weekly summary #74

• Discussions
  • Saskia has finished her analysis of the different Wiktionary proposals and projects
  • Oversight nomination for Ajraddatz
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• Development
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Discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (idea lab)#A proposed tool for reducing backlogs

You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (idea lab)#A proposed tool for reducing backlogs. APerson (talk!) 01:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)Template:Z48

Parent categories

A number of your recent edits have added parent categories to articles. As a general rule, we avoid doing this. For example: Once Kel Mitchell is in Category:African-American male child actors, he should not be added to Category:African-American male actors or Category:American male actors as both of those categories are subcategories (or "daughter" categories) of Category:African-American male child actors. Similarly, we would not add him to :

tp stalker here - what SummerPhD said is correct if the category in question is diffusing. if it's non-diffusing, then you *do* need to add to the parent category, or, a sibling (which is the same thing as adding to the parent, then immediately diffusing). Read WP:EGRS for guidelines on such categories. The actor categories are a bit special as they seem to be fully diffused on gender (but should not be diffused on race - the race cats should be non-diffusing)). Once you're done with your PhD in set theory you might understand how this works - it's rather complex... :( --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:43, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to digest this all, SummerPhD and Obi-Wan Kenobi but there are a lot of inconsistencies with categories.

For example, take Denzel Washington...he could be categorized (this is ONLY considering his acting activity and not including award categories):

• American stage actor
• American film actor
• America television actor
• American voice actor
• American actor
• African-American stage actor
• African-American film actor
• African-American television actor
• African-American voice actor
• African-American actor

• American male stage actor
• American male film actor
• America male television actor
• American male voice actor
• American male actor
• African-American male stage actor
• African-American male film actor
• African-American male television actor
• African-American male voice actor
• African-American male actor

• 20th-century actor
• 20th-century male actor
• 21st-century actor
• 21st-century male actor
• Actors from New York
• Male actors from New York
• Actors from Los Angeles, California
• Male actors from Los Angeles, California

And this is assuming that he doesn't have additional ethnicity to consider and, again, does not include all of the acting award categories that could be applied. So, which ones do you select? Liz 18:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Categories are not like resumes - they aren't intended to capture everything you did, they are intended to capture things which are DEFINING. I'd thus say that Denzel is not a television actor, that's not defining for him, nor a stage actor. I'd put him in the following, based on your list above:

• American male film actor
• African-American male film actor
• 20th-century male actor
• 21st-century male actor
• Male actors from New York
• Male actors from Los Angeles, California

Not - I think we should get rid of the "ethnicity+ gender" categories in the acting section - I don't see a point for it really - I'd much rather use category intersects to deal with this. But, as always, not my decision.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, this all started this morning because I noticed that there was Category:African-American child actresses and although there is a Category:African-American male child actors most young male actors were in Category:African-American child actors which should be the parent category for both gender categories. So, I was switching the last two.

Now, some of these child actors have transitioned to adult roles and they frequently had Category:African-American actors and Category:American actors (no gender) so I changed their categories to show gender since all of these acting categories have an "Actresses" component. I don't think there's controversy that if the category has a female component, then it should have a male component (although some don't bifurcate and use the same category for both men and women).

But I'm not sure about race and ethnicity. Should an actor be known as an African-American male actor or just an American male actor? It's even more complicated with ethnicity. Suppose an actress is Puerto Rican...then they are not only a "Puerto Rican actress" but an "American actress" (since Puerto Rico is part of the U.S.) but there is also an "American actress from Puerto Rico" and an "Actress with Puerto Rican descent". And that is just considering ethnic descent, not nationality which is another set of categories. And of course, also "Hispanic and Latin American actresses" and then the sub-categories for whatever medium they perform in. It is Categoripalooza.

Personally, I think that film/stage/voice/TV distinctions should be done away with. The way it is (because mostly fans write profile), if an actor has ever done a play, they are a "Stage actor". Likewise, there are a lot of rappers who had a cameo in a movie and are categorized "Film actor". At this point, so many film actors have moved to doing TV shows (and vice versa) that you end up with far too many categories.

At this point, you probably are thinking, "Why don't you pose these questions at the Categorization Talk Page?" Well, it's because you two will respond and when I had a pretty important question about gender orientation categorization, I didn't get much of a response (I think one reply, a month later) and I posted the question at WP:EGRS! Liz 18:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Generally, ethnicity categories are non-diffusing. Meaning, if you're african-American X, you should also be "American X". Gender categories are ALSO non-diffusing, unless they aren't - such as the case with actors. So it's bit confusing. Puerto Rican is a bit of an odd/special case, there are different interpretations of how to categorize puerto rican people, I generally just stay away as it's not worth the hassle. I think there could be an argument to get rid of film/stage/voice/TV - however it is clear there are some people who really are most known for one thing (e.g. stage acting, film acting, TV acting, etc). --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, let me get this straight, Obi-Wan Kenobi, since I've reread SummerPhD's comment several times and I still don't understand her point (and I've also read Misplaced Pages:Categorization but found it unclear).

Hypothetical case: If Denzel Washington is in "African-American male actors" then he should also be in "American male actors". But, if there didn't already exist a category for "African-American actresses" and "American actresses", then he'd simply be listed as "African-American actors" and "American actors". But since the category of "Actors" already has been bifurcated by gender, these division is still observed.

The ethnicity categories are confusing because it can mean, a) the country one was born in, b) the country one is a citizen of, c) the country where one works and d) the ethnic heritage of ones family ("descent"). Allowing from a mixed ethnic background from multiple relatives, this can quickly lead to overcategorization. Liz 02:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

If Denzel Washington is in "African-American male actors" then he should also be in "American male actors". - correct. If we take a different case, say "Heads of state", where there isn't a male category, then he'd be in "African-American heads of State" and "American heads of state", and a black woman would be in "African-American heads of state, American heads of state, and American women heads of state". The ethnicity categories are again, generally based on wp:defining - so if a source says "X is a french writer" (even if X was born in the US to french parents and then moved to france later), then we classify them as a french writer, and perhaps as an american one as well. Rather than tearing your hair out over this, come help me get category intersection working instead which will make this all MUCH simpler.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, this was my understanding, too, when I was sorting through categories this morning but it prompted the first note in this discussion so I'm still trying to figure out what SummerPhD's complaint is and how that differed from what I was doing.

"come help me get category intersection working instead which will make this all MUCH simpler"

Point me in the right direction! I've tried suggesting changes at CfD and found a) only 1-4 people comment on my listings, b) the final decision (keep, delete, rename, merge) doesn't always reflect the opinions of the 4 people who managed to voice an opinion and c) decisions are inherently conservative (that is, if some change looks like it will have far-reaching repercussions or involve some work, it's always turned down). 02:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

CFD is inherently conservative, but they are also rather brutal in getting rid of new categories that crop up if they don't fit in. I'd suggest just participating there for a few months to get a sense of things - there are a few people who dominate the discussions and things tend to go their way, they hold a lot of sway. You will get a sense of how to craft a nomination so that it goes through, and when you should/shouldn't do a mass nomination for example. I'll send you instructions for how to test the category intersections in a bit.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, that would be so useful, Obi-Wan Kenobi, thank you. I really thought I'd found my niche in finding appropriate categories for articles and standardizing them. For example, sometimes there are identical categories and one category will have 334 articles assigned to it while the other has 12. Or, there will be a parent category with 9 child categories and then 4 articles that are just assigned to the parent category...I'll see if they are better assigned to a child category.

I worked for years in a library so re/assigning categories comes from a desire to organize rather than any ideological/theoretical bias on what categories should exist. Any way, it is more satisfying working with CfD than AfD where I was less successful and always felt like I was crushing someone's work.Liz 15:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

If you are that special type of person who actually enjoys categorization, then you are most welcome. For most people, it is a tedious and depressing. You can read through my deghettoization algorithm here: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force#List_of_categories_that_need_to_be_de-ghettoized - and if you understand that, you are well on your way to understanding why we should move to category intersection... :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Depressing? No! It's bringing order to chaos, more accurate categorization helps people find what they are looking for more easily. No, what I find depressing is deleting articles or reverting people's contributions. I understand that those actions must be done (pruning away the unimportant and trivial), I just don't find that kind of work rewarding. I think it is far too easy to drive away new editors through speedy deletions and reverts.

On the other hand, dealing with categories has led me into a few unexpected conflicts (like the first comment in this thread) when I thought my decisions were pretty straight-forward. But I did recheck some of my work from early yesterday and replaced several categories that I had deleted to address her concerns.

Thanks for that link, I'm eager to read that page. It can be overwhelmingly to consider recategorizing thousands of "neutral" pages into gender appropriate categories so that the parent category can have both male and female child categories (if that is the way it's set up like for Actors and Comedians). That's the only depressing aspect I've found about categories but the work does go quicker with HotCat. However, the more I look at Categorization, the more work I see that needs to be addressed. Liz 16:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Evidence phase open - Manning naming dispute

Dear Liz.

This is just a quick courtesy notice. You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Evidence. Please add your evidence by September 19, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Seddon 23:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Seddon. I'm not sure what to do. I sort of said what I wanted to say in my statement and I wasn't an active participant in the discussion so I'm not presenting "evidence", just my opinion. What do you suggest? Liz 23:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

September 2013

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Disambiguation link notification for September 11

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that you've added some links pointing to disambiguation pages. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Thanks, DPL bot. All fixed now! Liz 13:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Sandbox of deleted "not-notable" content

Thanks Liz for the suggestion to start by sandboxing my content that is not yet notable. I'll do that Trpeters1 (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Trpeters1, it's important for Editors remember that any work is recoverable unless Misplaced Pages Oversighters have purged it from the system (which rarely happens, usually only when private information is revealed). Just ask an Admin to "userfy" (I think that's how it's spelled) and they'll move the most recent article copy to your Sandbox. Good luck. Liz 20:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Liz! Trpeters1 (talk) 15:21, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:Pornographic male actors

Category:Pornographic male actors, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Robofish (talk) 22:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

What? Robofish, I don't remember creating this category. I don't work on those type of articles. I was working on male actor categories this morning but it was mostly 16th-19th century actors. Please delete away, I have no objection! Liz 23:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Perry Belcher

The article Perry Belcher has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Misplaced Pages policy, this newly created biography of a living person will be deleted unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article. The nominator also raised the following concern:

All biographies of living people created after March 18, 2010, must have references.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. Tbhotch. Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 23:00, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

It looks like this is one argument I won't win, Tbhotch. I think he is a notable figure but I'm not so invested that I'm going to spend time tracking down references when I could be doing other Misplaced Pages work. Maybe you could just replace your redirect so the page doesn't completely disappear. Liz 23:35, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Interesting essay

I had never seen WP:POV Railroad before. Sounds a lot like my own perspective. Ignocrates (talk) 02:52, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

There are a lot of Misplaced Pages essays I like, Ignocrates. Another good one!

I hope you don't mind me posting a statement in your ARBCOM case. I tried to be even-handed but I had to share what I saw/read. It'll be interesting if they take this on. There is certainly an abundance of material to read through. Liz 03:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't mind at all. As you can see, perspectives vary greatly on this one. The vote is now 6 for acceptance, so we will see if this can be resolved by motion or if it goes to a full case. As you say, there is an abundance of material. A relevant question is, who wants to find out how deep this rabbit hole goes? They might not like what they find there. Ignocrates (talk) 03:18, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of horrible, ugly words have been spoken. It won't be hard to find Diffs. Liz 03:22, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Folks, the WP:POV Railroad essay is newly created. If you have any input about it I'd love to hear your feedback and comments on the talk page there. Good luck with your ArbCom. Cheers!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Reversion

Liz, I simply couldn't resist that. Oh, and why were you writing in first person?!? I like to saw logs! (talk) 03:39, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It was a Talk Page comment, I didn't edit the article at all and the article is meant to be humorous. You had to delete the entire Talk Page comment, I thought that was frowned upon. Liz 10:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Categorization

Happy to be of help. I can't take all the credit...or even most of it, really. I'm building a lot on the shoulders of others. I've created a very few categories, as most of them were already in place when I came along. It is tedious, yes - and I check manually for much the same reason you do (although there are ways to harness AWB's power, if you wish...not much less tedious, though.) But it's a great way to keep busy and do something productive when I need to. :-)

Keep up the good work, and happy editing! --Ser Amantio di Nicolao_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 21:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, some folks have been busy! I spent hours this morning on Bangladeshi male actors and all of the actresses had already been separated out.

This is the second time someone has mentioned AWB, Ser Amantio di Nicolao, so maybe I should check it out. I've been using HotCat which I've found to be very fast (better at adding and renaming categories than removing ones) but perhaps AWB is more effective.

Although it can be very repetitive and tedious, I'm find categorization work very satisfying but then I spent years working in a library and refiling books (the old days) so there is just satisfying about bringing order to disorder. I've had less success at CfD, I think every category proposal I've made hasn't gone through. I still need to understand the consensus process there.

Thanks for the reply...see you around, Ser. ;-) Liz 22:12, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

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Talkback

– Muboshgu (talk) 10:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Visits

Hahaha - there are some weird number of page watchers for my user page, I suspect forgotten visit/watch tags from people long gone quiet or off on a permananent lunch. To have actually a comment about the myrmecia (ant), is probably the first comment about my user page photo for at least a year... so it begged a reply. A bite, or an accumulative series can kill if you are allergic to bee stings. I have been bitten a few times over the last x years, so my reactions have not been of the sort to create alarm. A biology specialist at a local University counselled me seriously over the issue when I alerted him to my photos, I suspect he has had to guide medicos through people bitten and their medical issues. Interestingly the particular nest that I had photographed had a group of ants that grew accustomed to me and my camera, and did not go through the typical response of trying to rush the camera or me. I was quite devastated when the local council destroyed the nest in some roadwork activity.

User page photographs can be quite a revealing or deceptive device on the part of some users - some years ago more effort would be put imnto user boxes than actual editing, and I do remember fondly the Australian editor who never left his talk page, long diatribes about the injustices of the world, all on his talk and user page. Then eventually he went quiet and hasnt been seen again. I now know many more who have either left or are literally inactive on wp en than currently out there in the general wp editing. Enough. Thanks for your comment. sats 11:46, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Wow, now that I read that you actually took the photo, sats, I'm really impressed! I thought it was a photo you plucked out of the Commons archives. I don't think I would have gotten that close!

Re: WP activity, I have been looking at editing stats for some Editors when I come across their User Page and it's interesting to see what proportion of edits are in Articles vs. Talk Pages vs. User Talk Pages, etc. For some people, they rarely edit on Misplaced Pages policy/noticeboard pages and spend their time working on Articles while other folks, mostly Arbitrators and Admins, most of their edits are on Misplaced Pages pages or User Talk pages. Maybe people who file a RfA should be warned that they won't have time any more for article creation or tweaking.

Thanks for visiting! Liz 15:11, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

IMHO - where an editor for rfa or something similar has evidence of s single skill/focus area on the edit counters, I would think there is inadequate knowledge of the workings of wikipedia. X!s Edit Counter - speaks volumes about an editors capacities - for good or for ill sats 01:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #75

• Events/Press/Blogs
  • State of the Map
  • Dbpedia-Wikidata workshop
  • Slides for a Wikidata intro in French and English
  • Speaker needed for a Wikidata talk in Slovakia
  • Blog post by Denny: A categorical imperative?
• Other Noteworthy Stuff
  • The URL datatype is now available. Go and add all the sources ;-)
  • Sourcerer gadget by Magnus to help you add URLs from Misplaced Pages articles for claims
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Speedy delete

Hello Liz. You tagged a page for speedy deletion, but you did not notify the article's creator that it had been so tagged. There is strong consensus that the creators of articles tagged for speedy deletion should be warned and that the person placing the tag has that responsibility. All of the major speedy deletion templates contain a pre-formatted warning for this purpose—just copy and paste to the creator's talk page. Thank you.Template:Z19 — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 21:28, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, Cymru.lass, you are so right! I forgot to post those notices. I've only put speedy delete tags on categories/articles that I mistakenly created, not those written by others. Thank you for pointing this out to me and I'll remember to do so in the future. Liz 22:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

No worries! If you're worried about forgetting in the future, you could always enable the Twinkle gadget in your Preferences. When you nominate an article for deletion (be it CSD, AfD or prod) using Twinkle, it automatically notifies the creator of the article! Cheers, — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 23:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, that is brilliant, that it sends out notifications! I have enabled Twinkle but haven't used it much. I also hear a lot about Huggle and AWB but I haven't used them yet. Doing things the old-fashioned way, I'm sure once I figure out the tools I'll wonder why I waited so long! Liz 23:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I think you'll really like Twinkle! It streamlines a lot of things. Happy editing! — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 23:41, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of HotCat as I work with Categories a lot. Have a great weekend! ;-) Liz 23:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Message

Hello. You have a new message at Anna Frodesiak's talk page. Huon (talk) 00:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Santiago B. Villafania

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Santiago B. Villafania. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Misplaced Pages:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

"Many awards and orders categories are up for deletion"

I hope members of this WikiProject can weigh in on these discussions at CfD. - Hmmm. Yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it. But what's the incentive? As you are more than aware, the only successful communication I had was with you! Why would anyone try to have a rational conversation on that page when the major noisemaker has no understanding of, or interest in, the word "consensus", or any other POV than his own? I feel that your comment at the top of your talk page is an excellent summary of the situation.
If you wish to discuss this topic with me via email, please feel free; I have the expectation that any public discussion will lead to "tears before bedtime".
Never-the-less, despite my cynicism, I want to make it clear that I am encouraged by your reasonable and rational approach, and I am highly supportive of it. Please keep up the good work - far too many editors are, like me, throwing their hands up in the air and thinking that trying to have a half-way "normal" conversation is just too much effort. Best wishes, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

You sound weary of debate, Pdfpdf. There is more than one Editor participating at CfD and it is Admins who determine the consensus view of a discussion at CfD. I actually had a similar question to yours and went to Admins to see how they arrive at it and close a discussion. Here is one response that I found helpful.

For good or bad, the answers you receive can depend on whom you choose to ask and some Editors are open and forthcoming in explaining the process while others provide answers that are less satisfying. If you strike out with one, I recommend asking another active participant in whichever area of WP you are focusing on, whether it is on an article Talk Page, noticeboard, WikiProject or policy page. I've also had luck at the Teahouse and the Help Desk...Editors working at these places volunteer to track down answers to questions. And those Editors who are welcoming and generous in explaining procedures and processes? I have them on my Misplaced Pages speed-dial!

If there are further discussions about these matters, I'll keep you posted and invite you to participate. I think the views of both those who are very experienced and those who are new to a decision process should be heard...from the former, you hear the voice of experience and from the latter, you learn what is confusing or unclear.

Thanks for posting! Liz 13:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Liz. I'm glad that people like you are still around. Unfortunately, in my 6 years of experience of WP, I have discovered that people like you are few. And far between. (And yes, they are all on my speed-dial!) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 14:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, Pdfpdf, although I first created an account in 2007, I only edited sporadically, mainly as an IP, until recently. So, while I'm trying to get wiser about the way things work here at WP, I still believe that positive change can happen if one gets sufficient support from others.

As a lone voice, you can be mislabeled as "disruptive" but if a group of Editors voices their support for a proposal, even if it fails to sway the majority, at least their voice is heard and a position can no longer be judged as "trivial" or "subjective". Maybe it's because my training is in sociology but I've seen change happen when allies work together where if it was just a solitary person, he or she would be hitting his or her head against a brick wall.

And because our cultures and social mores change, that means consensus changes, too....not in an "end of Western civilization" way but in a progressive way of improving our understanding of the world and each other. Well, that's my hope any way. ;-) Liz 19:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey you! respect my article! (Aeolus planet)

Hey you! Can not put this article in the elimination just because you think he is an essay that was made or invented in one day! I spent two months researching to write. I put the references and they are accurate. Learn to read in Italian and buy the book indicated to confirm. Hey I'm very upset with you administrators of wikipedia. I do an article, someone comes along and wants to eliminate. I modify the article then comes another unhappy and complains saying the change I made became Article inappropriate. You need to set parameters! This time I will not accept! I researched a lot and I did not invent anything that is written. Respect! Respect my work! You use parameters defined by wikipedia, but judge subjectively, as if they knew or were all, like doctors experts on the subject! There are dozens of articles like this scattered throughout wikipedia worldwide! see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Theia_ (planet) # Theia

https://en.wikipedia.org/Vulcan_ (hypothetical_planet)

http://wikipedia.qwika.com/it2en/X-Proserpina_ (astrology)

https://it.wikipedia.org/X-Proserpina

https://pt.wikipedia.org/Tyche_ (planet)

http://de.wikipedia.org/Tyche_(Planet)

https://de.wikipedia.org/Transpluto

Now please stop me miserable, as do the other and go do something more productive! Will read about astronomy and the theory of hypothetical planets!

Ad Astra2013 AdAstra2013 (talk) 00:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by AdAstra2013 (talk • contribs) 00:21, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I placed the tag, AdAstra2013, because the article appeared to be your own original research. You are free to contest the deletion and improve the referencing to support your work.

By the way, this is English Misplaced Pages and knowing Italian shouldn't be a prerequisite for understanding an article. As for similar articles appearing on Wikipedias in other languages, I only participate on en.wiki so I won't pass judgments on decisions made there. Liz 10:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

2º epistemological round

Yeah, but either way , but should pay attention to the fact that in other wikipedias World , there are articles like this. This demonstrates quality standard and level things . FACT there are items in any other part of wikipedia dealing on the subject , it is prerequisite to validate the article , and you have the least notion of erroneous assessment has committed. Should pay attention to the fact that we live in a cosmopolitan world , and if you think that is inserted into it , have to be aware of things happening around you and that are documented as such in one language into another. Act contrary to it , only makes clear how limited is your horizon . Must answer three questions before judging my article :

I understand and know deeply astrology?

I understand and know deeply astronomy ?

The subject of this article is that a fact? Yes , because there is a lot of intellectual and physical events that support it.

You do not know Italian, but should have a minimum of epistemological understanding to judge information , and knowledge sharing . especially those in areas of knowledge that you do not know .

I can not go beyond what I have written in the article. Add more information would THEN write an essay and my interest is just PRESENTED facts . You should know that quantity is not quality , and that there are small items that say it all and are perfect , and while there are plenty of those who are confused a drug . This article reached your limit of information , as I said , anything will make him a trial . So be content . Around the world millions of people are interested in astrology and astronomy. But as you yourself made ​​it clear , do not know Italian and even have money to import the books that talk about the subject of the article . Because of this this article becomes the primary source for the subject . From it , anyone who speaks English , have knowledge of aa theory presented . Will know that there is a theory of a certain hypothetical planet , as well as other wikipedia is filled with articles on many different theories. And so the person can seek ways to enhance your knowledge on the subject . You, but what anyone else should have in mind that wikipedia is basic and quick source of information for many who do not otherwise have access . And remove my article is to deny people who like astrology and astronomy, in South Africa , Korea , Angola and even in the USA there is information about the fact .

Now you would like , please let me know to whom I look for , that is above you , to solve this problem . I want to know who will finish judging this issue and want to talk to him . Because from what I am seeing , it does not matter to you what will happen to my article .

AdAstra2013 AdAstra2013 (talk) 16:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

First, AdAstra2013, I don't understand much of what you've written. A lot of it is because I can not decipher what you are saying based on your use of English. So, I can not begin to answer all of the questions you seem to be asking.

Second, I simply put a tag on your article suggesting it did not meet Misplaced Pages standards. You can contest this judgment and defend your article but NOT HERE on my Talk Page. I will have no further involvement with your article and will not take any additional actions about it so it is not me that you have to convince. To reiterate, I placed a tag on your article and I've moved on to work on other articles. I have no interest in researching your article and continuing to post on my Talk Page will have no positive effect on the condition of your article since I will not be taking any further action on it. An appropriate place to talk about the state of the article is on the article's Talk Page (Talk:Aeolus_(planet)).

Finally, I recommend you read, thoroughly, "Creating article in wikipedia" which provides some guidelines on what is expected from articles on Misplaced Pages. Also, as the tag says,

"If you can address this concern by improving, copyediting, sourcing, renaming or merging the page, please edit this page and do so. You may remove this message if you improve the article or otherwise object to deletion for any reason. Although not required, you are encouraged to explain why you object to the deletion, either in your edit summary or on the talk page. If this template is removed, do not replace it."

Good luck with your work! Liz 17:00, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Great.

I know I will not make any difference post here. Cause the only cpisa you even know to do is tweak articles without prior knowledge for disposal. Still, thank you, you answered what I wanted. Furthermore, I will not worry about writing well in English for someone who has little knowledge and epistemological general.

Thanks genius! AdAstra2013 AdAstra2013 (talk) 16:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

AdAstra2013, we don't own any of the articles we create or otherwise contribute to here at Misplaced Pages; see WP:Own. Flyer22 (talk) 16:20, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Ebionites 3 arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ebionites 3. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ebionites 3/Evidence. Please add your evidence by October 1, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ebionites 3/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Callanecc. Liz 10:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I saw your note to the clerk, so I wanted you to know I'm finished presenting my evidence. Although I preserve the option make changes in the next 10 days, it's essentially complete. As you said yourself, for me it's all about the content. Beyond that, I can't discuss the specifics of the case. However, while arbitration is not to be taken lightly, it also presents a rare opportunity. If you have something to contribute that you think will help the encyclopedia, particularly the long-term health of the encyclopedia, please have at it. Ignocrates (talk) 22:57, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Ignocrates, I'm not sure about the mysterious "I can't discuss the specifics of the case" but I think I got pretty up-to-speed over the summer on the current state of this debate. My point to Callanecc was that the only evidence I could supply would concern incivility since the conversation about the history of articles and reliable sources is beyond my expertise. But I saw plenty of violations of AGF and NPA. But since you say this ARBCOM case is about content, then I'll just let the statement I made stand.

But it is nice to hear from you, Ignocrates. I hope your case gets a fair hearing. It is a lot to sort through! Liz 23:49, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Sorry to see that Ret.Prof deleted his account.

Just for purposes of clarification, ArbCom addressed only matters of conduct, not content. There have been repeated calls over the years for a content committee, but to date none such exist, and ArbCom most certainly is not it. It would be possible for ArbCom to in this case, as they have others in the past, request that the community make some effort to address content-related matters. When they do that, they tend to make the specific request of clarification or development of guidelines, and only once in a great while, like with one of the Macedonia arbitrations, call for respected editors independent of the case to offer a short term resolution of a content related dispute. And, honestly, I find the remarkably self-serving "it's all about content" line completely ridiculous, unless that refers to perhaps using content to advance a position. If it had been all about content, he wouldn't react as he has to me, In ictu oculi, and to an extent PiCo, when they propose changes which would make the content more consistent with policies and guidelines. Ignocrates has rather a long history of self-serving comments, though, and I guess that it would be more of a surprise to see that change than not to. John Carter (talk) 00:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

More incivility and personal attacks, John Carter. I find it baffling that you can't see it despite many people pointing out your continued negativity towards Ignocrates and how over-the-top it is. You make so many worthwhile contributions but this is a huge, enormous blind spot.

But ultimately, it doesn't matter what you, I or Ignocrates thinks, it'll be a team of Arbitrators sorting through all of the Diffs, passing judgment and coming up with solutions to this impasse. As I said to Ignocrates but I hope the case gets a fair hearing. Liz 00:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

By "I can't discuss the specifics of the case", I only meant that I didn't want to bias your presentation of evidence in any way. Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 01:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, Ignocrates. I thought it was due to some oath you had taken. ;-) Liz 01:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Whisperback

Hello. You have a new message at Kudpung's talk page. 14:20, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Ireland

Are you Irish? Sorry for the question, feel free to not reply if you don't want to. Miss Bono 15:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm partly Irish. My brother is there right now, in County Tipperary, tracking down distant relatives. But like most Americans, my ancestry is a mixture of cultures. Why do you ask? Liz 15:16, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Just because I saw your post at the WP Ireland talk page and just curiosity, I admire Irish people :D Miss Bono 15:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Wow, Miss Bono, I just noticed your userbox page! Very impressive! I might use some of those. Liz 15:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead and use them :D If oyu need one in particular just let me know and I'll be glad to do it or teach you how to do them by yourself. Miss Bono 15:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Here are two of my favorites! Liz 15:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

What do you want me to do? Miss Bono 15:59, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, nothing comes to mind at the moment! I'll let you know if I come up with any good ideas. Thanks for the offer! Liz 16:36, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

ok, No problem. Miss Bono 16:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Categories on "Africanization"

Greetings, You deleted Category:Human names from Africanization. I've responded with a comment and request for feedback at Talk:Africanization#Categories. TIA.--A12n (talk) 07:21, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

A12n, I removed all culture-based name articles from Category:Human names which contains articles about aspects of naming for human beings. Since Africanization concerns place names, I thought it was inappropriate to be included in this category which includes more abstract articles about human names such as Religious name, Patronymic and Personal name. Liz 12:06, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Not arguing with your choice wrt this particular category, but for clarification, "Africanization" has been used as I understand it for personal names as well as place names - and beyond that to the staff composition of civil services following independence). That's a fairly wide usage, but observed and described in these contexts as Africanization. I reordered some of the page content under various headings which may make that clearer. Would defer to your judgement on catting but feel it's appropriate to somehow account for this range of usage.--A12n (talk) 13:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

A12n, this sounds like a topic that is worth its own separate article, on Africanization of personal names. I'll look at the reordered article, as I might have missed this mention. Thank for addressing my concern! Liz 15:47, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 18 September 2013

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Grammar

No, it wasn't you. I wasn't sure if it should be Liz' or Liz's or some other grammar style that I'm unaware of.--v/r - TP 19:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

LOL! You know, technically, TP, "Liz'" is probably grammatically correct but I've only seen people use "Liz's" so that's I'm used to. Liz 20:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #76

• Events/Press/Blogs
  • upcoming: UK Wikidata Training
  • Magnus blogged about the Wikidata Query tool
  • Gerard did an interview with Emw about the heady stuff of Wikidata
• Other Noteworthy Stuff
  • 30 percent of all items are categorized in 6 large groups (main type (GND) (P107)). Most are items about geographic features (1.7 million items), some of these already have coordinates (0.5 million). Items about persons are fairly frequent too (1.3 million), many already with gender (0.9 million), a few with DOB (0.05 million) or DOD (0.04 million). Other groups include: creative works (305,000), terms, organizations, and events.
  • The first 2 Wikidata oversighters are elected, Ajraddatz and Rschen7754. Please contact the email at the above page, and do not post requests onwiki. Two more candidates are running: Stryn and Sven Manguard.
  • Neat new gadget to semi-automatically import labels, aliases and descriptions based on Misplaced Pages article introductions
  • New search backend on testwikidata needs testing
  • Commons is still scheduled to get interwiki links via Wikidata on Monday and can also be tested on test.wikidata.org
• Did you know?
  • Newest properties: GSRR rating, filming location, USK rating, notation, facility, South African municipality code, topic's main category, Nova Scotia Register of Historic Places identifier, PEGI rating, AMG Game ID, Libris, PORT identifier
• Development
  • Wikimedia Deutschland is looking for a software developer with a focus on frontend development with Java Script to work on Wikidata among other things. Apply!
  • Paper Cut: Display the ID of an item or property page next to the label (bugzilla:53462)
  • Paper Cut: Fix value field not loading for some properties (bugzilla:53157)
  • Paper Cut: Work on supporting non-earth globes in the UI (bugzilla:54097)
  • Worked on quantity data type implementation in backend and frontend
  • Work on a build and release tool for the Wikidata software
  • More work on sorting of references and qualifiers
  • Work on database schema modification functionality to be used by the query store
  • Prepare deployment for Wikimedia Commons (including improving script for populating sites table, adding support for Wikimedia Commons)
  • Work on making entity data available in the Mobile Wikibase skin
  • new Cirrus Search (Elastic Search) backend enabled on test.wikidata.org
  • Finished up cucumber tests for sitelinks
  • Hotfixes for coordinates autosummaries
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  • Finished working on wbeditentity
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• Open Tasks for You
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Teahouse talkback: you've got messages!

Thanks for the mention

Hi Liz, thanks for citing me in your discussion on the Teahouse. I won't contribute to your discussion there, for fear of making it too long :p but I totally agree with the issue you raised. AugurNZ ✐⌕ 05:45, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, AugurNZ, I think your discussion about deletionism was very important. If you look through Teahouse questions, you'll see the same question--new editors frustrated with speedy deletions of new articles--over and over again. Liz 13:28, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Mountains Appalachian Trail CfD

Thanks for informing me about this. --ColonelHenry (talk) 21:20, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

No problem, ColonelHenry. I can't believe it's already being revived and discussed after it was closed last week. Liz 22:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Header gaps

Hiyo. This is barely worth mentioning, but (afaik) there is no consensus on whether talkpage headers or article headers should have a gap underneath them. It's good to be consistent within each page, but otherwise it's best not to add or remove the gaps (as you did here). Some people prefer them for visual clarity when scanning the wikitext. Also, if we click the "New section" button, (as I've done for this message) then the software will automatically produce a header with a blankline underneath it. That's all, and again, no big deal. :) –Quiddity (talk) 21:51, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know about your preference, Quiddity. But if there is no consensus then I guess either way is correct, no? Liz 22:24, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not "my preference" at all. It's a lack of consensus in either direction. But the more important point is that the software adds these gaps in automatically, so they're endorsed at a certain software level. I would recommend that you not remove existing gaps, especially when an entire page uses them. HTH. –Quiddity (talk) 22:32, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Quiddity, thanks for letting me know. Liz 10:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Kate Winslet

Hi. I noticed you undid my removal of tabloid sources for contentious information on this article. On consideration, I have restored this edit. I made it in an admin capacity while enforcing WP:BLPSOURCES, so I'd be grateful if you could refrain from restoring it a second time. Could you instead take it ti article talk or (preferably) find better sources for this info? --John (talk) 08:34, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, John. But I don't know how an Editor (me) is supposed to know when an edit is made "in an admin capacity" and when it is a normal edit. How are these special edits distinguished from others?

Plus, I thought that according to WP:BRD, that the sequence goes, 1) Editor A makes an edit, 2) Editor B chooses to revert, then 3) Editor A goes to Talk Page to discuss the edit...not that Editor A re-reverts the edit. At least, I thought that was how Misplaced Pages was supposed to work based on what I've been told to do when someone reverted my edit. It's up to the original Editor A to go to the Talk Page and get consensus for their addition or deletion. Liz 10:24, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you

	Sweet Treat Award
	For your continuing contributions at WP:BLPN, Cheers! — Keithbob • Talk • 20:55, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Keithbob, I don't get many of these rewards. Maybe because I am often contrary! So, thank you very much. ;-) Liz 21:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Your work is good, and appreciated, keep going! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:30, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	I don't know which one to give you, but thanks for trying to help L'Odm :) ~Charmlet 01:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Wow, Charmlet, two "rewards" back-to-back! Thank you for noticing. Liz 01:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Creating categories

Hi Liz

When you create categories, please can you check that they have a proper set of parent categories?

I just reviewed some recent categories which you created, and found that they all lacked at least one parent:

• Category:LGBT scientists from India (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) was parented only under Category:LGBT scientists by nationality. However, this category is an intersection of three attributes: Nationality (Indian), Occupation (scientists), and LGBT. There parent categories should locate it within the relevant category trees, so I added Category:Indian scientists and Category:LGBT people from India.
• Category:LGBT scientists from Hungary (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) had the same problems as India
• Category:17th-century Japanese actors (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is an intersection of 3 attributes: era (17th c), nationality (Japanaese), and occupation (actors). It needs to be parented under categories which cover all those attributes, either individually or in pairs. You had categorised it under Category:17th-century actors and Category:Japanese actors, both which were valid and correct; but that left it isolated from Category:17th century in Japan. So I added Category:17th-century Japanese people.
• Category:17th-century Spanish actors (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) had the same prob as the Japanese ones
• Category:Bangladeshi producers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is an intersection of 2 attributes: nationality (Bangladeshi), and occupation (producers). It needs to be parented under both those attributes, but you placed it only under Category:Bangladeshi people by occupation, leaving it isolated from other producers. So I added Category:Producers by nationality.
• Category:Bangladeshi male voice actors (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is an intersection of 3 attributes: gender (male), nationality (Bangladeshi), and occupation (voice actors). You has categorised it under Category:Bangladeshi male actors and Category:Bangladeshi voice actors, leaving it isolated from other male voice actors. So I added Category:Male voice actors.

WP:CAT#Category_tree_organization explains some of this.

Hope this helps. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, BrownHairedGirl. I recognize your substantial experience and while at times we might disagree on CfD decisions, I hope to always work within the guidelines of what is appropriate with categorization at Misplaced Pages.

I appreciate the corrections...it will help me learn to do a better job in the future! Liz 13:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Template:Whydidyoudothat DS (talk) 13:43, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

about blocks and trolls and such

Hi Liz. I notice you seem to have an interest in the fate of blocked or banned users. I watch a lot of pages relating to these processes as I am a fairly active admin, and I'm sure you have noticed that I participate in many discussions of these areas myself.

I have been active on WP for about six years now, have been an administrator for just over four years and an oversighter for about three years. I'm telling you this not to brag or pull rank, but to indicate that I have seen a lot of what Misplaced Pages has to offer. People who work on developing content in areas not rife with controversy get the best of it, and (contrary to what many believe) us janitors and behind-the-scenes folks get the worst. I've dealt with many trolls and vandals in my time, from school kids who insert obscenities into articles all the way up to folks with their own entry at WP:LTA, and I,can tell you this with a high degree of confidence: LODM is not a new user at all. This is someone who has edited here before, probably under multiple past identities and who created this account knowing all along it would end up like this. They claim they are fighting censorship but they are really just trying to upset people. In other words, trolling.

Why, you may ask, would someone do that? I can't say I really know. Most people have a hard time understating such behavior, and as we are directed to assume good faith they assume such a person is just misunderstood or bad at communicating, or something like that. In many cases they are right, but not in this case. This is a user who, from practically their first edit and with virtually every edit they have made since, is deliberately trying to cause problems, not solve them. I imagine a research psychiatrist could write several books on these people if they cared to. What is it that makes them want to come to a website that exists to share free knowledge with the world and try to turn it into a circus? If we understood that we might have more effective ways of dealing with it than blocking, but we don't and blocking is pretty much all we have.

If I had to guess I would say the reason this block has not been appealed yet is that LODM is already operating another account. Either that or they had their fun here and moved on to some other website. I think if you thoroughly examine their contributions, as I did when evaluating this situation yesterday, a picture will emerge of a user who is more concerned with posting pictures of genitalia in as many places as possible and discussing the various ways a person might stick their tongue up another persons posterior than in building an encyclopedia. I am strongly opposed to censorship myself, but what LODM was doing was not fighting censorship, it was premeditated disruption for purposes only they understand. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

First, Beeblebrox, I appreciate you coming to my Talk Page and offering a thoughtful, considered reply. The response to comments like this that I make is typically dismissive, especially because I've only recently become an active Editor. So, thanks for that.

Second, LODM never hid the fact that she/he used to edit under IPs. So did I, up until when I created this new account in July. So, I had no illusions that she/he was a brand new user.

Third, I don't know if you saw my comments on AN/I but I was no fan of LODM. She/He could be downright stubborn, bull-headed and irritating. I don't think we ever had an exchange where we agreed on anything. We were not friends.

What I objected to was the way these "community blocks" occur on AN and AN/I, these pile-ons that turn what was a simple request for an uninvolved Editor to have a word with LODM into a full-fledged, indefinite block. It is maddening to see some users with what seems like true harassment be ignored while a simple post asking for help turns into indefinite blocks for either the person accused or the accuser (or both). Charmlet didn't come to AN/I in order to drive L'Origine off of Misplaced Pages, she/he came with a simple request and then page stalkers saw L'Origine as an odd-ball and, boom!, an indefinite block.

Not a one week block, not a one month block, not a 3 month block. An indefinite block. And a block made by your judgment of what "the community" wanted (when we are really talking about a dozen opinionated Editors, right?), a block made by community consensus which doesn't seem to have an obvious way to appeal (how do you address a community to be unblocked?). You get a handful of Editors to show up at AN/I and yell, "Off with her/his head!" and you can get just about anyone off Misplaced Pages.

I have no doubt that you are an experienced Admin and I hope that you do act with good intentions (AGF and all). But, I just want to let you know that, sometimes, the politely named "community consensus" looks, to a newcomer, to be capricious and random, with a lot of people who visit the noticeboard just to vote people off the island, so to speak.

It makes me understand why people have sock accounts after a block rather than grovel to be let back into the editing circle. After one has been banished, who is in a mood to say "I'm sorry, please forgive me?" So, what started out as a simple request to help with a confused Editor turns into an indefinite block and, probably, future accusations of socking. Wouldn't it have been less painful to simply address the problem that Charmlet had come to AN/I about?

Now, you might be right, LODM could be a troll. Maybe you have keen and sophisticated "troll-dar" that comes from years of being an Admin. But suppose she/he wasn't...well, that's another Editor who might have improved with help who got bounced off the website. I guess we differ on whether there was a justified consensus to take this action. And, in these cases, your opinion is more important than an ordinary Editor. That's just the way it is. But that doesn't mean I can't raise an objection when I think the process is unfair.

Again, thanks for coming here and explaining your action as an Admin. I do appreciate it, despite my disagreement with the action you took. Liz 00:23, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, an indefinite block is not necessarily a permanent block, although, admittedly, in many or most cases it winds up being such. User:Bus stop was blocked indefinitely here (I hope you can see it) in 2007, but is active again today. And, in one recent case regarding Messianic Judaism, regarding a minor edit in violation to a topic ban to, I think, a chart on the page, someone was blocked "indefinitely" until such time as he indicated he had been wrong to violate a topic ban he had been placed under, and then when he apologized the block was lifted. Indefinite blocks are, from what I've gathered, rather regularly appealed to ArbCom and others, and in at least quite a few cases, get lifted. Particularly if the editor involved is free to edit his user talk page, I don't know if that is the case here. Just FYI. John Carter (talk) 21:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

John , I saw this discussion continuing on Beeblebrox' Talk Page where I was informed that there actually isn't something called a "community block" that is different from a regular Admin block. For example, Bonkers the Clown was indefinitely blocked, via AN/I, through the same process and on the same day as L'Origine and, boom!, today, he is unblocked. So, it's a) not necessarily forever and b) not impossible to overturn if the individual demonstrates that they won't continue their disruptive behavior. Liz 22:07, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Pardon my intrusion into this dialogue. If you guys really care about the fate of blocked/banned users, could you two take an independent look into the BruceGrubb case? From my perspective as a completely uninvolved editor, I still have a bad taste in my mouth about this sordid affair a year and a half later. Imho, this was a classic case of WP:POV railroad. Ignocrates (talk) 01:07, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Ignocrates. Considering my lack of success persuading Admins not to block Editors, I think any action I would take would backfire. Regards, Liz 02:08, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I understand. I just wish someone would lance this boil. Compared to my little problems, the controversy surrounding the Christ Myth Theory is ugly beyond belief. Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 03:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Let me guess, Ignocrates...it pits those who believe Jesus Christ is a myth against those who believe he is a real, historical figure? I would not like to mediate that dispute. It's remarkable how unChristian some people become when their religious or atheist views are challenged. Lots and lots of heat generated and blood drawn, but nothing resolved. Liz 21:42, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Indef blocks data

I just lost interest in it, or rather I wasn't that interested in it initially. The raw data comes from the database dumps, which are still being generated. Hut 8.5 09:32, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Hut 8.5. I guess you need significant knowledge of coding to get this raw data into a manageable form to analyze? I don't have a background in programming. Liz 21:38, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

The way I did it was extremely messy, but I don't know anything about the proper way. I would regenerate the data based on a more recent database dump, but the format of the dumps has changed and I'd have to rewrite the program. You might well be able to find someone who can generate this data for you. WP:VPT maybe. Hut 8.5 22:14, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I've since learned that there were pitfalls when I chose to focus on qualitative research rather than quantitative research in my degree work. More stats classes and I could probably figure out this myself.

Thanks for the information, much appreciated! Liz 22:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Commons

I am requesting a rename on Commons. My current Commons name is Newjerseyliz. Liz 16:16, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

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Funny you should say that...

I've just had a little word about needing references if he/she is going to launch it out of user space, and about FAKEARTICLE if it isn't launched. (I've also suggested deciding on the subject's gender...) Peridon (talk) 21:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, Peridon, when I went to look at the page you were talking about, I just assumed it was an article and put a {{refimprove}} tag on it. Usually people put articles they are working on in their Sandbox so I'm not sure what is up here. Liz 21:58, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Self promo, I think. I've already deleted an earlier version. He/she's getting a chance to do something with it - but I'm watching like a s****-hawk. That's how I knew you'd been there - and that someone had changed a cat from actor to actress (I've now removed all but one of the cats - shouldn't be there in userspace, but I'd missed that before). If nothing in the way of refs appear, and there's no sign of launching, I'll MfD it as FAKEARTICLE. Peridon (talk) 22:07, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I try to remove content categories from User Pages when I come across them but not when the Editor is working on an article and the categories relate to the subject in their Sandbox. Then, I think deleting them would come across as hostile and, for all I know, the article will be moved to Misplaced Pages space and then the categories would be valid. But mostly, I find content categories on User Pages of either new or inactive Editors so they are justified.

Have a pleasant weekend! ;-) Liz 22:28, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

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Category:Songs written by Jason Blume

Richhoncho, who created the category, voted "delete" in the CFD, so I tagged the category for G7. That's what happened there. Ten Pound Hammer • 14:31, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Ten Pound Hammer • , thanks for letting me know. Liz 18:17, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

666!

As one of a highly select international group, you are hereby invited to join me in celebrating my 666! (Let the games begin!) Pdfpdf (talk) 11:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the invitation, Pdfpdf! Liz 14:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

October 2013 AFC Backlog elimination drive

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Not yet

I haven't begun the draft, but that is the raw selection. Serendious 17:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Serendious! Don't worry, I won't breathe a word. ;-) Liz 17:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

FYI

was just perusing an/i (yeah, i'm that bored) and noticed you used the term "Indian-Canadian". Solely in the assumed spirit of everyone 'round here wanting to be better informed, it's "Indo-Canadian". (For the record i am the latter but not the former). Peice Owt. Primergrey (talk) 20:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, Primergrey, but my choice of Canada was rather random. I didn't want to use "Indian-American" and I'm not sure what you call a person who is Indian and British. So, Canada was their third country that came to mind.

Thanks for the correction though, now I know better. Liz 21:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

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In 30 days, we will know the identity of our 2013 WikiCup champion. Cwmhiraeth (submissions) currently leads; if that lead is held, she will become the first person to have won the WikiCup twice. Sasata (submissions), Hawkeye7 (submissions)—who has never participated in the competition before—and Casliber (submissions) follow. The majority of points in this round have come from a mix of good articles and bonus points. This final round is seeing contributions to a number of highly important topics; recent submissions include Phoenix (constellation) (FA by Casliber), Ernest Lawrence (GA by Hawkeye7), Pinniped, and red fox (both GAs by Sasata).

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Ebionites 3 Evidence

Hi Liz, I see you decided to contribute to the Evidence page after all. I'm glad you weighed in with a view of what happened on your talk page, and I'm also glad you said something about what John Carter did to Ret.Prof.

One of the things you noted in Evidence is how few actual edits to articles John Carter has made. I have looked into this in detail and plan to discuss it in the Workshop. If a contribution to article content is defined as a least one complete sentence supported by at least one reliably sourced reference, here is John Carter's last contribution to sourced article content: diff. On September 16, 2010, he created the Modern Ebionites section of the Ebionites article. Other than about a half-dozen pages of bibliographies (lists of references) created on or around Oct. 29, 2010 that is all. After Oct. 2010 there is not even a single sentence added to article pages in 3 years. This is relevant to Smeat75's point about John Carter's lack of understanding of reliable sources. How can someone who edits so little have so much to say on article talk pages about what everyone else should be doing regarding the proper use of sources? It will be interesting to see what other editors have to say about this in the Workshop. Ignocrates (talk) 22:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, Ignocrates, I won't pass judgment on your or his level of knowledge about the subject. My observation was purely from hanging out on the article Talk Pages and noting that John seemed to want the power of veto but he never followed up on your repeated requests that he contribute to the article by supplying other references. This seemed unusual because I do know that John edits other articles. My guess, purely speculative, is that he didn't want the kind of scrutiny he leveled at you to be laid on his contributions. I know that usually people who are judgmental are hardest on themselves.

This is simply my own observation, Ignocrates, but you have the advantage because, in general, you have remained civil and, as this dispute has continued, you stopped personalizing it and made it about the content. I urge you to continue taking the high road throughout the arbitration process. Refrain from reacting to provocative comments and just dispassionately present the facts as you see them. Since I know John has my Talk Page on his watchlist, I'd give him the same advice. Liz 23:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Another interesting point related to the above is that John Carter claimed on the Gospel of the Ebionites talk page that he recused himself from editing because of accusations of bias. When I called him out on this, he either could not or refused to produce any evidence of these accusations. However, in the process of digging for the diff I showed you above, I found these two: diff, diff. In these posts to project talk pages, John Carter claims he was accused of falsifying sources, not bias. I would like to know more specifics about this incident, as it may be relevant to the Workshop. Ignocrates (talk) 22:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Again, my advice above. In my view, less is more, you have strong points, you don't need to pile it on. This hearing is not an attempt to seek some kind of revenge but to clarify a dispute. You don't need to detail every misstep, just present your strongest evidence and answer any additional questions the Abitrators pose to you. My 2 cents. Liz 23:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Well said, thanks. Ignocrates (talk) 01:05, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Your mention of “sports“ at WP:AN

Hello, Liz! I just wanted to remark that the statistics collected on those user pages that are up for deletion were not about sports AFAICT: rather, it seems, a form of trainspotting for circulating banknotes, a hobby that’s unlikely to be the subject of extensive articles.—Odysseus1479 01:03, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Odysseus1479, I'll have to think a little harder to figure out "AFAICT", not sure what that stands for. But the pages I looked at looked like sports teams' rosters and the outcome of conference matches. But I just spot-checked 6 or 7 pages on that long, long list. Liz 01:35, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry: “As Far As I Can Tell”. I only looked at a couple of those pages myself–a case of the blind men & the elephant, I suppose.—Odysseus1479 07:48, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Notice of External links noticeboard discussion

Hello, Liz. This message is being sent to inform you that a discussion at Misplaced Pages:External links/Noticeboard is taking place regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MorrowStravis (talk • contribs) 22:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Whisperback

Hello. You have a new message at Kudpung's talk page. 23:21, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Whisperback

Hello. You have a new message at Kudpung's talk page. 00:11, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Errrrrrrrr. G'day!

I've replied. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Pdfpdf! Liz 15:55, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

No worries. As I've often said: T'ain't What You Do (It's the Way That You Do It), and one of the reasons I enjoy communicating with you is because I like "the Way That You Do It". Pdfpdf (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

a) "Talkback" b) It's nearly 2am here - past time to "retire'. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 16:13, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Goodnight, Pdfpdf! Liz 16:18, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Regarding this, see the first sentence of Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by number of edits#List. (Or am I missing something?) Anyway - bedtime! Pdfpdf (talk) 16:27, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, Pdfpdf, there they are. They aren't very prominent though. I've looked over this page a dozen times and never noticed those links. So, thanks for pointing them out to me. Liz 16:44, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with what you say, because I had to expend some effort to find them, and I knew what I was looking for, and I knew they were there ... somewhere. Pdfpdf (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Go.to.bed, Pdfpdf! ;-) See you when the sun come up down under. Liz 17:11, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

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Teenly

I've been crying after reading that talk page and her contributions both the articles and other pages. I find it difficult to believe that she was as young as is stated but even if she was three times that age, well, what she had to offer was amazing. Life just isn't fair sometimes. - Sitush (talk) 20:24, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you came across my question about Teenly, Sitush, you must have that Departed Wikipedians page on your Watchlist. Yes, it's hard to believe that a 6 year old was actually editing on WP and communicating with others. But her User Talk Page doesn't read like a hoax. And, in my years on Twitter, I'm pretty familiar with accounts that pretend to be sick children. This doesn't sound like those.

If you found her Page moving, read the note that mentioned her passing at User:Bwilkins#Special notes left for me ...I think any Editor would tear up after receiving a note like that on their Talk Page. Liz 21:32, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the Departed page is watchlisted from the time when Tito Dutta was improving it earlier this year. I agree that Teenly is not a hoax. She was clearly a very gifted child, and I've known a couple. I just find it very upsetting: what we've lost and what she gave. I don't usually get too bothered about deaths or about children but reading of and around this particular one hurts. It seems that I have a heart after all but it is preventing me from editing right now, so I'm going to sign off for a bit. - Sitush (talk) 21:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's a surprise to me that WP brought a small child pleasure but with what she was dealing with, I'm glad it could provide a little distraction from her illness. Take care, Liz 23:55, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

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A cupcake for you!

I know I'm going to make you fat but just the same :-) I wanted to acknowledge your astute and succinct contributions to the Ebonites3 ArbCom evidence page. Its important to have uninvolved editors step in and give their perspective. OK.......... now eat your cupcake!! — Keithbob • Talk • 21:03, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Wow, thanks, Keithbob, it's appreciated. I wish I could remember how I ended up on the edge of this fierce dispute since I have no opinion about subject. I hesitated to get involved at ARBCOM because I'm more of a witness to a fight than an involved party (and this fight has lasted six years!). I've made a few comments on the Workshop page until I saw how many ideas were being put on the table and I think the Arbs need to sort this out themselves.

But I appreciate you noticing! Have a great week! Liz 22:34, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Talkback (Ks0stm)

Ks0stm 19:47, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!

Why don't you run for admin

Greetings Liz, I saw your comments at Jimbo's page and was wondering why you don't run for RFA. Your editing history seems to support that you would do well. 71.126.152.253 (talk) 01:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

That's flattering, 71.126.152.253, thanks. But I have some strikes against me:

• Though my first Misplaced Pages account was registered in 2007, I was a sporadic Editor until July of this year. I doubt that I'd get credit for all of my edits under my other accounts (including my IP account) and there seems to be a 12 month minimum for consistent editing.
• I'm interested in the processes of how Misplaced Pages runs smoothly, assessing consensus, examining policies, voicing unpopular opinions that should be heard, dispute resolution. I don't see my forte as content creation and that's, pretty much, a basic requirement for all successful RfA. Lots of GAs, FAs and DYKs are often emphasized.
• They now require extended "tours of duty" (2 or 3 months) in a variety of areas (AfD, AfC, Vandalism, NPP, etc.) and I'd rather find something I'm good at and stick with that (along with regular Wikignome activities) then round out my resume just for the sake of an acceptable future RfA.
• Plus, I've looked at the editing stats of long-time Admins. Doing Admin grunt work, putting out fires, checking unblock requests, requests for help, and the like, seems to consume all of the time that Admins used to spend working on the encyclopedia. It's like being an engineer and getting promoted to be a manager and finding that instead of doing creative work, all of your time is spent filling out paperwork and attending meetings. Yes, you get these powerful tools, but it looks like much of Admin work is borderline unpleasant and they are constantly criticized, no matter what they do. Yeah, sign me right up! ;-)

So, for all of these reasons, I don't think I'd do very well in an RfA and I'm not sure that Admin work is the kind of work I wanted to spend hours doing. But, again, I do appreciate your encouragement! Liz 02:06, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

You are right that usually 12 months of consistent editing and some experience in deletion/vandalism/etc. is typically a must for an admin candidate. But there are actually a number of admins who spend a lot of time writing content, like Wehwalt, Casliber, Jimfbleak, etc., so if you do become an admin you can always keep that up. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:43, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Good to know, Mark Arsten. Unless my circumstances change (that is, I can unpack my library!), I don't see myself creating a lot of serious content, which is really needed right now in the sociology area. The limitations of a small apartment and not having an office any longer, everything is boxed up, especially bulky reference books. But, luckily, there are always a lot of other necessary tasks that need to be done! Liz 20:04, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Reference desk

Hi Liz, I am not sure if there are any admins or other well-meaning editors who 'police' the reference desk, sorry I can't really help here :( GiantSnowman 17:40, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, Giant, you can help me if you'll indulge me in one more question: Have you seen disputes concerning the Reference Desks (regarding users, incidents or policies) posted to AN or AN/I in your tenure here at Misplaced Pages? I'm just wondering if that's where a discussion like this would happen. Thanks for your assistance! Liz 18:16, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there have certainly been dispute about the RD posted at ANI - but if you're seeking more guidance then I'd try AN. GiantSnowman 18:20, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Right now, it's just an observation, Giant. But now I'll search the AN and AN/I archives and see if it is an issue that has come up before. Thanks again. Liz 18:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Changes to Wael Hallaq

Dear Liz,

I submit the following for your consideration. First, as I explained recently to Flyer22 on her talk page:

1) the identification "non-Muslim Arab" in the opening sentence, though true, has the effect of stereotyping Wael Hallaq and his academic contributions. Although the fact that he is a non-Muslim and an Arab may be of interest to some readers, stating the fact at the outset gives it undue precedence; this wrong emphasis is a disservice to the living subject of the article and to the reader, and, as I have said, comes off as a an attempt to stereotype. Imagine, for example, if the article on Reza Aslan opened with "Reza Aslan is a non-Christian Persian," or the article on Muhammad Ali opened with "Muhammad Ali is a non-Christian African." 2) For the above reason, I chose to remove "non-Muslim Arab" (which, along with its citation, had been added by another editor), and to insert the term "non-Muslim" into the third sentence of the second paragraph. In this way, the fact may be known to those who, for whatever reason, deem it important, but not in such an essentializing and stereotyping manner. As for "Arab," so much should be evident through the combination of his name and birthplace; it need not be stated at the outset as a defining characteristic--the effect, again, is stereotyping.

Second, I continue to disagree that the phrase "is a prominent scholar" requires citation, and here is the argument I presented to Flyer 22 for the same:

3) As for my choice of the word "prominent" to replace "non-Muslim Arab," this is not POV requiring citation. The facts related in the article are eloquent testimony to Wael Hallaq's prominence in Islamic Studies: three decades in the academic field, two highly-sought-after and influential professorships, nine authored volumes, and some sixty other publications are evidence enough of prominence in an academic field. Prominence is not proven by citing a text which links the subject to the word "prominent;" rather, it is evidenced by the subject's many and influential accomplishments and publications. Scholars and students in the field of Islamic Legal Studies--my own area of study, authorship, and teaching--know the name Wael Hallaq very well.

Finally, I understand the concern you expressed as "Removing sourced material," as the opening "non-Muslim Arab" was indeed cited, and the citation removed when I removed the opening phrase.

Seeking resolution to this persistent rolling back of my edits, I will do the following: 1) I will remove "non-Muslim Arab" for the stereotyping reasons outlined above 2) Despite my continuing disagreement, I will not replace it with anything (i.e., I will not insert "prominent" or any other descriptor) 3) I will retain the citation, and move it to the term "non-Muslim" which now occurs in the second paragraph, deemphasizing the fact so as to avoid stereotyping

Regards, RaHHaal (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

That sounds perfectly reasonable, RaHHaal. Note that these guidelines about language like "well-known", "accomplished", "top-ranked", "most important", "the best", "spectacular", etc. are applied to all profiles and are actually a big problem on articles about entertainers (actors and singers). It's not a standard that is being unjustly applied to this article alone. It's a constant battle on Misplaced Pages against superlative language.

As for Wael Hallaq's prominence, you don't have to find a reference that specifically uses that word. It can be any reference (from a reliable source) to his importance as a scholar that you can find. One source you could cite, for example, is any prominent award or honor he has received or if holds an endowed chair for his professorship. That would demonstrate his prominence.

I think Misplaced Pages has a particularly high bar for academics...there are many scholars who I think should be listed on Misplaced Pages but there are Editors who evaluate academics and they can't have a regular record of teaching and publishing, they have demonstrate they are exceptional or notable outside of their academic discipline. Since most academics spend the their time on research and don't seek out media attention or publicity, this is a difficult standard to meet.

I'm glad we could come to a compromise you can live with at the moment. Note that if these edits are challenged by others, we'll need to move this conversation to the article Talk Page. Liz 18:08, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

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Editor Survey December 2011

I just came across this WMF Editor Survey Dec 2011 results pdf file. What is particularly interesting is Section III (pg. 18) about how Editors feel about the Misplaced Pages Community and interactions with Admins and other Editors. It dispels some common misconceptions and reveals other interesting facts. Also, in demographics, 25% of those responding were under 21 years of age, most were male, single and had no children. I imagine parents, especially of young children, have little time to devote to editing.
Of course, all of the regular disclaimers apply, this was not a randomly selected group of Editors, those who are willing to take time to respond to a survey request are those individuals who tend to be more satisfied with the process. Liz 19:56, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

English Misplaced Pages at a glance August 2013

Page views: 9,985 million/month = 333 million/day = 13.9 million/hour = 231 thousand/minute = 3.9 thousand/second

Encyclopedia

Hi I was just wondering if contributing to the encyclopedia itself ever interested you? What sort of topics interest you? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:46, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, Dr. Blofeld, 51.70% of my edits are to the Misplaced Pages article space so I do work on the encyclopedia itself. All sorts of topics interest me, I try to fix problems, especially regarding references, tables and categories, when I come across them...small improvements that help articles.

But I imagine you aren't talking about merely edits but content creation itself. After seeing so many newly created articles quickly deleted, the idea of putting a lot work into writing which is then erased, well, that is completely unappealing to me. I also don't see a lot of value in creating a lot of random stub articles which, by and large, are never expanded by other Editors, just for the sake of article creation. They typically don't provide much information and are just placeholders.

It's been interesting to me to see so many unreferenced, badly written, older articles that currently exist on Misplaced Pages and then see such a high bar set for newly created articles. I'm not saying that bad articles should be accepted, just that standards have changed a lot on Misplaced Pages regarding article creation and now a lot of articles that could improve over time are simply being deleted.

At least, that is my perception of what is occurring. Liz 12:51, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, a massive cleanup job is needed on here and it's difficult to know where to start, and shoddy new articles which go under the radar are adding to the cleanup job and workload. I just didn't recognize your name which if you're a veteran here that strikes me as odd.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, I first registered in 2007 as Nwjerseyliz but I made most of my edits logged out, as an IP. My most recent IP account seems like it is static as it only contains my edits if you check Contributions. But all I did was fix typos that I saw or run-on sentences, I didn't know much about formatting or how Misplaced Pages was organized.

I decided to become more active last summer and my first comments in the Wiki space reflect my confusion and frustration over where to find information on how Wiki operates and how to edit. Now that I know my way around, it seems obvious but back in July, I kept searching for topics with Misplaced Pages's search function, not knowing that I had to go to Advanced and check the "Misplaced Pages" box in order to find pages in the Wiki space. It was very frustrating and I'm glad the Editors who staff the Teahouse are incredibly patient.

My first serious edits, of course, stepped on toes. I wish Editors and Admins who post warnings on User Talk Pages would realize that casual Editors don't even know that policy and guideline pages exist...they don't know there are these articles they should read first or where they are and they couldn't find them without a direct link. So, I was labeled as "disruptive" and some of my edits were reverted because I was learning by trial and error. This scolding led to me spending a lot of time reading Wiki articles and noticeboards, in order to better understand Misplaced Pages culture and what expectations were. This is why you just started to seeing my name around the past few months and also why I also often advise against imposing blocks on new Editors because I know how much I stumbled around, ignorant of what customs and practices I was violating. Liz 16:06, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Nwjerseyliz still exists and if I go to other Wiki sites it logs me in under that username and when I return to en.wiki, I'm still logged in as Nwjerseyliz. So, you'll still see some edits there.

• Liz wrote: But I imagine you aren't talking about merely edits but content creation itself. After seeing so many newly created articles quickly deleted, the idea of putting a lot work into writing which is then erased, well, that is completely unappealing to me.

I know exactly how you feel.

Liz wrote: I also don't see a lot of value in creating a lot of random stub articles which, by and large, are never expanded by other Editors, just for the sake of article creation. They typically don't provide much information and are just placeholders.

Just to play devil’s advocate: Most, if not all, the articles I created were stubs, and while what you say above (still) applies to some, others have received some nice contributions. See for example Wage Earner Protection Program Act

Liz wrote: It's been interesting to me to see so many unreferenced, badly written, older articles that currently exist on Misplaced Pages and then see such a high bar set for newly created articles. I'm not saying that bad articles should be accepted, just that standards have changed a lot on Misplaced Pages regarding article creation and now a lot of articles that could improve over time are simply being deleted.

How true, sigh… XOttawahitech (talk) 15:03, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I was spending a lot of time in WP:CfD last month, Ottawahitech, but it could get so adversarial, it was tiring. I mean, the easiest thing is to vote Delete because it takes no effort (just like posting Block! on AN/I). But if you want to Keep, you have to find policies, guidelines or logical reasons to justify why content should exist. I also felt like I needed to notify everyone who might be effected by a Delete and found that the majority of Editors are not checking in daily and decisions in Deletions wrap up quickly (usually in a week or less). So, that effort didn't pay off with much response but I'm glad I did it.

I'm still finding out where I fit in to the Wiki world, where I can help out the most but also get some satisfaction.

I didn't mean to knock stub authors, some that I've seen are closer to articles while others are pretty meager. I just became curious how some Editors could create 100s (or 1000s) of articles and when I looked into it, they were often just a sentence-long stubs about some obscure type of salamander or gnat that lists their scientific name and common name and a reference to some biological reference book. A decent article could take weeks or months to craft especially considering all of the other things going on in life. It's quite an investment of time and effort to track down all of the necessary references so the subject is going to have to be one I already know something about. I truly admire Editors that have the persistence to take a so-so article to GA and FA status.

But like the guidelines say, this isn't a race, Misplaced Pages grows as a cumulative effort and a new article can be added today, next month or next year and still be a worthwhile addition. Sorry for rambling a bit, I tend to get a little reflective in the morning when I'm drinking my coffee. Thanks for being a Talk Page Stalker! ;-) Liz 16:06, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Butting in here, I wholeheartedly agree with you about how it can take a long time to find sources, particularly at present. That's probably the main reason I'm working on getting together the lists of encyclopedic articles, and also trying to add some of the older PD ones to commons. Particularly for a lot of older topics, like maybe a 19th century mayor of Berlin, some of those older sources might be among the best out there, considering the possibly greater temporary significance of the subject at the time those works came out, and more space devoted to them on that basis, and the fact that, in a lot of cases, except some involving homosexual outing, revelation of subsequent sometimes questionable sexual or other forms of behavior, etc., there won't be a lot of currently regarded information about them that won't be included in those old sources. Granted, a lot of that sort of material can also, not unreasonably, be called "boring", but it might still be significant enough for inclusion here to some degree. John Carter (talk) 17:44, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

You have to be very careful with old reference materials, John. They reflect what certain scholars believed at the time they were written, but our understanding about most fields, from physics to literature to anthropology, is not even the same as it was ten years ago. I'd say that even a reference text from 1993 is out-of-date, depending on the type of information it contains.

I've seen old Catholic Encyclopedias from the turn of the 20th century and reading them gave me a good idea about what a particular group of chosen Catholic theologians (but not laypeople) believed about the saints or the sacraments in 1907. But we not only know more 100+ years later but scholarship itself has changed. Methods of research have changed, there are more academic contributions from scholars in countries outside of Europe and North America and also, gasp!, women, too. While much of academic training itself has changed little over the past 150 years (unfortunately), the individuals who are doing the research have changed, immensely, the research questions that are being asked have evolved over time and so have the conclusions drawn from that research.

Older reference materials are valuable in that they can demonstrate how understanding of a concept or event has changed over time but they are, basically, a moment encapsulated in a time capsule. I'd argue that they should only be used as a reference if a Wiki article is discussing what people at a certain moment in time believed as these works do not reflect contemporary scholarship. That doesn't make them useless, just that their use has to be qualified and it should be noted that they are dated. Liz 18:06, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

On the matters you referred to, I actually more or less agree, which is why I mentioned the example of an older mayor of Berlin, although I suppose any older biographical article about minor figures who haven't gotten much subsequent attention might be similar. Regarding matters of religion, yeah, I have seen how in some cases like regarding Nag Hammadi, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Mani's early Christianity, and several other matters which have been significantly changed by recent discoveries would invalidate a lot of the older conclusions, but that number of topics, broad as it is, is probably still a non-majority of the total number of all the possible topics out there. Particularly starting in the era of when written sources became particularly common, say the end of the 19th century, and some works like the Chambers, Britannica, and a few other comparatively non-biased sources, the older articles on, for instance, countries which have since been merged, or conquered, or whatever, might still be among the better sources for those older topics. John Carter (talk) 18:14, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

October 2013

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Rick Bronson

WP:PROD says "Be sure you have a valid reason for deletion" and "provide a clear and non-generic reason" and "indicating the article's general subject area or what notability guidelines it falls under is considered good practice" and "Make sure to provide an edit summary that clearly indicates that the article has been proposed for deletion" amongst other advice on how to nominate - I'm not sure how clearer it could be. And no, you cannot re-add the tag - it now needs to go to WP:AFD I'm afraid. If you're unsure how that works please let me know. GiantSnowman 19:10, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Giant. I don't take reverts personally, I try to use them as a way to understand what I did incorrectly. I think I need a short list of valid reasons for deletion because I thought that being an insubstantial article was evidence enough. I mean, it was a sentence long with all of these external links! Is "it looks like junk" a valid reason? No, that's probably too generic.

What I find puzzling is that there are so many Editors who are a quick draw with Speedy Deletes...they seem to tag dozens of SDs all day long. And I find myself an Inclusionist and usually argue to Keep articles and categories from deletion. But when I find a delete-worthy article, I don't know the right way to get it done. Seriously, I've proposed maybe 3 AfD (over 3 months) and they were all kept. I must be doing something wrong because I wouldn't haven't proposed them unless I thought they would meet the criteria for deletion.

Any way, thanks for explaining it to me. Liz 20:04, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Forgot to sign

Liz, you forgot to sign your comment under Pre-planned dispute: diff. Ignocrates (talk) 22:08, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Hey, it was just that one place, right, Ignocrates? I guess you are both watching that page!

Your answers to the questions seemed a little snippy but I gather it is just coming out of exhaustion about the whole process. But that's how the text read to me. Liz 22:28, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if I seemed a little snippy but you are right about the reason. I'm getting really tired of having my motives impugned all the time. Ignocrates (talk) 22:33, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Ignocrates, you can be snippy with me. ;-) But I'd advise both you and John Carter not to be snippy with Arbitrators who, for all I know, are all still undecided on this whole case. Liz 22:38, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

And, if I may say so, I believe it would really be in your own best interests to review some previous arbitrations. I acknowledge that you seem to have generated in your own head a rather unsupportable conclusion about me, which is rather obvious given some of your edits. But you will find that for instance WP:ARBMAC2#Stalemate solution specifically was an instance of ArbCom requesting involvement of the kind of outside input I am requesting. Particularly for someone who seeks to be an administrator, it would really help to refrain from making statements about what can and can't and should and shouldn't be done until after you make an effort to see if it has or has not been done before. John Carter (talk) 22:14, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Are you talking to me, John? Why would you assume I wanted to be an administrator? Or are you referring to My very best wishes?

I'm not sure what you mean by "in my own best interests" but I reviewed the Ebionites request for arbitration and Ebionites2 case over the summer when I was trying to sort out what was happening on the Talk Pages and Noticeboards where you and Ignocrates sparred.

As for Arbitration, the deadline is today and I've posted what I've posted. So far, the ARBCOM hasn't paid much attention to the statements I've made, so I don't think my words will have a great effect upon the proceedings, especially compared to your own words. Any further comments I make will be regarding the proposed decisions, if I choose to participate in that discussion. Liz 22:26, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Um, at some point you said you wanted to be an administrator. And I find the borderline hysteria of the comment about how I might be talking to Mvbw laughable. I'm not sure if you have bothered to review the recent discussion on his user talk page, which you apparently haven't, between me and him, but you will find that I suggested to him maybe doing some translations of Russian material. But, I guess, you didn't review such, did you, and you have taken his declarations based on his own prejudicial views of the Falun Gong 2 arbitration at face value. If you are not planning to seek adminship, though, then perhaps you should feel free to continue to make the sort of poorly researched and judgmental comments you seem to at least in my eyes enjoy making about others. And you apparently didn't review the talk pages of Jayjg, or Dougweller, or any of the other pages I had linked to in my evidence page, where a lot of the problematic conduct took place, which is also relevant. Poor research, and drawing conclusions based on poor research, is actually something I would have not expected from an academic or a former librarian. John Carter (talk) 22:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)