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June 25

State of Michigan - Upper Peninsula

I am curious: why is the Upper Peninsula a part of the state of Michigan, and not a part of the state of Wisconsin? Thanks. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 04:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

According to the Michigan article, when it became a state it was granted the U.P. in trade for the settlement of a boundary dispute with Ohio, as Ohio had won that dispute. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Wisconsin wasn't granted statehood until over a decade later. At that point it would require a literal act of Congress and consent of both Wisconsin and Michigan to transfer the Upper Peninsula to Wisconsin. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

See Toledo War for the boundary dispute. Nyttend (talk) 08:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

WTO Compliance Proceedings

Are parties allowed to raise new issues during WTO Compliance Proceedings? Grotesquetruth (talk) 12:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:08, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Where is Papa Doc?

According to our article François Duvalier "On 8 February 1986, when the Duvalier regime fell, a crowd attacked Duvalier's mausoleum, throwing boulders at it, chipping off pieces from it, and breaking open the crypt. Duvalier's coffin was not inside, however. A prevailing rumor in the capital, according to The New York Times, was that his son had removed his remains upon fleeing to the United States in an Air Force transport plane the day before." Has his body ever turned up? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

It's in storage next to the Ark of the Covenant Chuntuk (talk) 20:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

June 26

Does anyone know anything about this Indian (Buddhist?) story?

I once read an Indian story that went like this: "A courtesan was in love with a sadhu who wasn't interested and refused to even go visit her. Sometimes later she provoked the king's anger so he ordered that her ears, nose, hands and feet be cut off and that she be abandoned at a cremation ground. Only at that point did the sadhu go visit her to teach her about the doctrine etc." I think the story is Buddhist but I'm not sure. Does anyone know anything about such a story, specifically the name of the courtsan, and the source? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 18:32, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

(As a Buddhist) I have never come across this. It doesn't sound Buddhist, and sadhus are Hindu. Shantavira| 08:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

As Shantavira says, it doesn't sound Buddhist, however, IIRC, many stories do change over time based on time, place, and culture, and I'm pretty sure the Buddha has been referred to as "sadhu" before. While I don't recognize this particular story, there are quite a few Buddhist folk tales that involve imagery related to the "cutting off" of appendages (I put "cutting off" in quotes for a reason, there's a lot of metaphors involved and often these stories are not intended to be taken literally). Three stories come to mind right away because they are so popular: the story of Angulimala ("The Finger Necklace"); the story of Gutei ("Gutei's finger"); and the story of Huike ("Huike Offering His Arm to Bodhidharma"). There are likely many more of these stories, as the Buddhist literature and canon is too large for any one person to know it all. In fact, I've read elsewhere that it is so large, that it is unlikely that 99% of Buddhists are familiar with it as a whole. What's amazing about that, is that the extant literature probably represents less than 20%, given how much has been lost to time and conquerors. The enormity of that idea is frankly astonishing. Christians don't like to hear it, but there are too many coincidences between this imagery and that of Matthew 5:30 and the Sermon on the Mount to dismiss some kind of chain of inheritance of cultural ideas over a period of many centuries. Viriditas (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: the Nichiren Buddhists say "Sādhu also means upright, good, honorable, righteous, or correct, and also indicates a holy man or a sage. There's an interesting post on Stack Exchange that talks about the history of the word "sadhu" in Buddhism. In Sri Lanka it is often used to refer to a Buddhist monk. According to one person, "Budu Sadhu" is the term for "Lord Buddha" in Sri Lanka. Viriditas (talk) 23:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Update: I believe I have identified the story, but the details are vastly different. What you describe sounds remarkably like the "Story of Sirimā the Courtesan". You will note the similarity of the courtesan being brought to the cremation ground and the role of the King. The difference is that the courtesan's body is not amputated, but rather decomposed, which plays the same role as amputation in the story, particularly as the body falls apart over time. Another difference is that the doctrine was not necessarily taught to the courtesan in the same way (although she was a follower of the Buddha in the story), but rather was taught to the monk, who went "crazy" obsessing over the courtesan out of his desire for her overwhelming beauty. Her death showed that her beauty was fleeting, which is illustrated in the story as her dead body is being eaten by worms and undergoing putrefaction. I believe it's the same story because the lesson is identical. You initially said the courtesan was in love with the sadhu, but I think you got it backwards. In this story, the sadhu is in love with the courtesan, which in fact, makes a lot more sense. Viriditas (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I can believe that the story I'm faintly remembering had points of similarities with other stories and that maybe there's a constellation of common themes that generate similar stories in Buddhist lore but not that I've misremembered what I read to such an extent that the story of Sirimā that you're recounting has somehow reassembled itself in my head to produce what I remember. But there are definitely common themes. Incidentally my use of the word sādhu is not meant to be taken technically. I'm not certain that's the terminology used in the source I've taken that story from and I obviously can't check: if I knew where I've read that story I'd have no reason to ask the question here. But thanks for the research. 178.51.74.75 (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps, but there are many other similarities I didn’t mention. In your version of the story, the courtesan provoked the anger of the king; in the story of Sirima, she provokes the anger of the Buddha. Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Update: here’s a more condensed version:

Sirima. A courtesan of Rajagaha and younger sister of Jivaka. She was once employed by Uttara (Nandamata) to take her place with her husband (Sumana) while Uttara herself went away in order to indulge in acts of piety. During this time Sirima tried to injure Uttara, on account of a misunderstanding, but on realizing her error, she begged forgiveness both of Uttara, and, at the latters suggestion, of the Buddha. (The details of this incident are given Uttara Nandamata.) At the conclusion of a sermon preached by the Buddha in Uttaras house, Sirima became a sotapanna.

That helps a bit. Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Three UK train crashes on one Sunday

My father was just telling me that he recalls a Sunday in the period 1963-1967, when there were three train crashes in the UK, on one day.

When was it and where were they? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:38, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I can't see anything at either List of rail accidents in the United Kingdom or List of accidents on British Rail. The latter does shew two crashes on 1 August 1963, but as well as being, like Mr Spiggott's legs, one too few, it was a Thursday not a Sunday. DuncanHill (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, one of those two crashes involved two trains while the other incident only involved one, so on 1 August 1963 you could say that three trains crashed. It's possible (if unlikely) that this is how it got framed on some headlines to sound more sensational. Matt Deres (talk) 14:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

(Belated reply) @Pigsonthewing: I've just searched the Railways Archive's "Accident Archive" for the period. This shows, essentially, every accident and incident that has ever happened on the network, even those for which a report was not produced. The following search query, which covers the whole of the 1960s, did not reveal any examples of 3 in one day, but you may be interested to browse it anyway: 1960–1969 search. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 11:29, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

June 27

East Asian art

Why did the art of east Asia never have a "renaissance" and moved to a high degree of realism like European art did? I would think isolationism and a conformist culture would be an explanation, but during the Edo period of Japan, they did have some foreign influences still, like fabric patterns were adopted by the Japanese that were Indian and European in origin and brought to the country by the Dutch. It seems odd the influence would stop short of painting and drawing though. -- THORNFIELD HALL 04:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

You may be interested in our article on Japonisme. -- asilvering (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

See also the Hockney-Falco thesis, which holds that the realism in Western Rennaissance art was due to the development of optical instruments. The jury has yet to reach a verdict on that one. Alansplodge (talk) 11:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, one particular focus of Chinese painting was broad panoramic landscapes, often much wider than they were high, and it's doubtful whether an imposed mathematical perspective of viewing the whole scene from strictly one single geometric point would have been artistically beneficial in that case. As William H. McNeill said, "Chinese painters had learned also to indicate space as a unified and unifying whole, but not by means of linear perspective... Chinese landscapes were projected instead from a shifting aerial point of vision" -- AnonMoos (talk) 12:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

P.S. I can't remember the artist or title, but there's a probably European Renaissance painting of human figures against a background of lines of classical pillars (colonnades) receding into the distance, and while use of perspective did add a certain kind of realism to the scene, it also seemed to flashily call attention to itself, so that viewers were more preoccupied with the geometry than with what the painting was actually supposed to be about (or at least I was). Perspective is a powerful technique in the service of art, but it doesn't follow that an artwork with perspective is automatically better than a comparable one without... AnonMoos (talk) 13:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

You may refer to Raphael's School of Athens. Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, but that's not flashy enough. The one I had in mind had a line of Parthenon-like columns starting in the left foreground and receding toward the center distance, and another line starting in the right foreground and also receding toward the center distance. AnonMoos (talk) 18:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Keep in mind that it was a renaissance of something (perceived) to have happened before. Renaissance artists took things further, but they were deliberately grounding themselves in what have become known as "the classics" (i.e. ancient Greece and Rome). The Greeks did not use linear perspective in the way that Brunelleschi and others did, but they did know enough about it to use it for effect and they were generally proponents of the concept of "balance". East Asian art has its own concepts of balance and its own classics that it has to push against and be measured against. Matt Deres (talk) 15:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Possibly, while Japanese artists would have been technically able to realize "a high degree of realism", this was not considered artistically valuable and therefore not worth aiming at. Consider that the high degree of realism of the wax figures at Madame Tussauds is also not artistically appreciated; the art world prefers unrealistically white marble or dark bronze.  --Lambiam 16:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Chinese painters could do realism, and had their own perspective system that suited long scrolls - Along the River During the Qingming Festival is a famous, much-copied version. They were also very interested in reviving "classic" styles, but this most often meant the older versions of the scholar-artist or "literati" tradition, supposedly practiced by amateur scholars, where realism was mostly associated with "court painting" by professional but not very highly-educated artists (often hereditary). This also affected Japanese painting. Johnbod (talk) 22:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

National Rally–The Republicans alliance crisis

There is something I'm missing in regards to National Rally–The Republicans alliance crisis. What I do understand: Éric Ciotti, the president of The Republicans (LR), attempted to establish an electoral alliance with National Rally for the 2024 French legislative election. Most of the leadership of LR objected to this and voted to remove Ciotti from the presidency of the party and also from membership in the party. Ciotti sued and got a court ruling that he was still the president of LR.

However, the article does not clearly explain why the court found in favor of Ciotti, probably due to translation problems. It says: "The two successive exclusions of Ciotti, by the political bureau on 12 June then by the same body and the national council on 14 June, are considered to have no legal value by the main party concerned. Both were subsequently challenged in court in summary proceedings and suspended by the courts, which ruled on the fact that the lower court must be seized “within eight days” by “the most diligent party”, failing which “the suspension measure ordered will lapse”." What does this mean with the lower court being "seized" by "the most diligent party"? Is this supposed to mean that in eight days (after when?), LR would be allowed to remove Ciotti again? -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The court decision is only a temporary one which allows Ciotti to continue as president of Les Républicains until the underlying issues are decided upon. The issue is whether the party members who voted to exclude him did so in conformity with party rules (normally it would be the party president who calls for an extraordinary bureau meeting such as the one that voted to exclude Ciotti, but obviously, that is not what happened). The anti-Ciotti faction's argument is that an alternative way of calling such a meeting is if a quarter of the members of the national executive request it, which is how they proceeded before voting Ciotti's exclusion. Ciotti may have won the initial judicial battle, but he is clearly in a minority position within his party, and most members have refused to follow him in an alliance with the Rassemblement National. Xuxl (talk) 15:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

June 28

Talos period

I am proofing a presentation that makes reference to Talos. It doesn't give any form of time period. This is for a general audience, not historians. What time period should be used? I don't like any ideas I've had such as: "Around 300 BC..." is boring. "In the third century BC..." is confusing. "In Hellenistic Greece..." only makes sense if you have heard of "Hellenistic" before. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 11:15, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

What is this "Talos period" you speak of? AFAIK, there is no period associated with the mythological Talos you've linked to. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

You can say, "In 2024, I prepared a presentation that makes reference to Talos." If you want us to tie spme statement to a time period, you need to indicate what the statement is. The earliest known references to the myth, by Simonides of Ceos, date from the Lyric Age of Greece – which unfortunately will only make sense to people who have heard of "the Lyric Age of Greece" before. But I guess this is true for all terms, from Bronze Age to Hellenistic Greece to Anthropocene.  --Lambiam 19:32, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Just as a reference, I asked on Reddit as well. The answer on Reddit was simple: "Use Circa 300BCE because most people will understand that." You can see the answers here are baseically "We are going to be as pedantic as possible and refuse to provide any answer that might be considered useful." 75.136.148.8 (talk) 20:09, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

No, I would have answered the 300BCE stuff as well but just did not consider that was a good idea. Some will like their coffee sweet and other won't, and we're taking care of your welfare too. You will not shine the same in your presentation depending on the pot you're taking your sugar from. --Askedonty (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Copping an attitude is not likely to improve your chances of getting what you're after. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

They had the same attitude in reference to a question about cities in the Arctic back in April. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

In the previous question, instead of any attempt at an answer, I received arguments that anything and everything is a city from New York City to an outhouse sitting next to a gravel road. In this question, instead of any attempt at an answer, I received arguments that Talos is still guarding Crete "In 2024", so it is impossible to refer to a time period when Talos, according to Myth, existed. Long ago, the reference desk attempted to provide references. Now, I attempt to give references and links to supporting information when I answer questions, but when I ask a question, I get pedantic arguments about one word, ignoring the question. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 13:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no way to answer a question about "which city" if you do not give us a standard for what you will accept as a city. In the current question there is no way to refer to a time frame for a mythical event. If you can't give us actual, answerable questions, then we cannot give you answers. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

That is my point. Here, you cannot give answers because you get tied up pedantic minutia which does not actually have to do with the answer. On Reddit, they simpy give an answer. The original question was not about cities. It was about limiting the labels on a map to those with higher populations. There is no harm in stating that OpenStreetMap tends to show more populated areas. This question is not about if or if not Talos truly existed and exactly when did he exist. It is about the general time period referenced in the mythology. There is no harm in stating the "Circa" looks better than "About." It gives the impression that the purpose of "answering" is to rationalize reasons why an answer cannot be given, often stating it is "impossible" to answer... unless you ask on Reddit. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems you're looking for a definitive stylistic opinion, which Reference Deskers are less keen on offering than Redditors might be. In any case, as a general audience non-historian, "around 300 BC" sounds perfectly fine to me. "Circa 300 BCE" works too, I don't think it's any more specific per se but I guess it has aesthetic flair. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally I'd say "Use circa 300BC because more people will understand that (unless your intended audience are all college-educated Americans under say 35, or academics)." Johnbod (talk) 21:31, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

You told us that "Around 300 BC" is boring. Indeed, "Circa 300BCE" is much more exciting! But what does this period refer to? "Circa 300BCE, Talos toured thrice a day around Crete?".  --Lambiam 00:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Look at the article (which boringly uses BC). Johnbod (talk) 02:16, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

June 30

A Cato the Elder quote?

Does anyone know the source of the following quote: "Two augurs cannot walk past each other without smiling". (Since they both know what nonsense their predictions are.) It is associated in my mind with Cato the Elder but I'm not entirely confident. I've checked Wikiquote and it's not there. Leaving aside the attribution, does anyone recall a similar saying? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 19:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, attributed to one Cato or another by Cicero in Book 2 of De Divinatione: "But indeed, that was quite a clever remark which Cato made many years ago: 'I wonder,' said he, 'that a soothsayer doesn't laugh when he sees another soothsayer.'" . (Vetus autem illud Catonis admodum scitum est, qui mirari se aiebat quod non rideret haruspex haruspicem cum vidisset.) . --Antiquary (talk) 20:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Cicero refers to Cato the Younger earlier in the same book: "I have also recently thrown in that book On Old Age, which I sent my friend Atticus; and, since it is by philosophy that a man is made virtuous and strong, my Cato is especially worthy of a place among the foregoing books." So it is likely he is referring to the great-grandson. Later he mentions Cato in the list "Cato, Varro, Coponius or I?". Varro and Coponius were contemporaries of Cicero, so this also points to Cato the Younger.  --Lambiam 09:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Good points, but when I look on Google Books for attributions from modern Classics scholars I only find them naming Cato the Elder, either by name or as the author of De agri cultura: . Is that solely because in that work Cato the Elder told his steward not to consult haruspices? But others were also rather sniffy about them . I'm left in doubt which Cato Cicero meant. --Antiquary (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Cato the Younger was younger than Cicero. If "De Divinatione" is from around 44 BC (when Cato the Younger was about 50) what could "many years ago" mean and which of Cato the Younger's books (did he write any?) would have been written early enough in Cato's life and have given Cato an opportunity to say something about diviners? On the other hand is it possible that the "clever remark" may have been oral (either spoken directly or reported to Cicero)? Even if Cato's saying in Cicero's words feels like written Latin, is it possible that Cicero was parphrasing, not reporting it literally? Incidentally there's something intriguing about a deeply traditionalist guy (both Catos were) being skeptical of and even sarcastic about a matter of religion. A mix of pragmatic skepticism and traditionalism seems to fit Cato the Elder better, doesn't it? Traditionalism in Cato the Younger's time seems to have become too demonstrative and ideological for him to allow himself to mock a matter of religion, doesn't it? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

July 1

French president

Macron is the guy with the white shirt, right? Who is the guy in the baseball cap shaking hands with randoms? Another politican? Do I have them confused? And is the PM of France kind of an irrelevant figure? In other countries with PM's I thought it was the other way around, the PM runs things and the president is a figurehead. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 12:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Macron is the person in the leather jacket / the baseball cap, joining Brigitte Macron for part of the take. The guy in the white shirt, shown at the start of the video may be security. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

France is a semi-presidential republic, or dual executive republic in which a president exists alongside a prime minister (from Semi-presidential_republic). There are two competitive readings of the French Constitution, see Constitution_of_France. To me, except may be during "cohabitation periods", the usual interpretation is in favor of a "powerful president". — AldoSyrt (talk) 14:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Still, to add to what AlsoSyrt said, the Prime Minister is far from insignificant. Under the previous two Republics, from 1871 to 1958, however, it was the President who was largely a ceremonial figure. Xuxl (talk) 14:46, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

See also Prime Minister of France which says: "The extent to which... decisions lie with the prime minister or president often depends upon whether they are of the same political party. If so, the president may serve as both the head of state and de facto head of government, while the prime minister serves as his deputy". Alansplodge (talk) 16:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all. The guy in the white shirt (starting at 0:11 in the video) resembles photos of Macron that I've seen, so I got confused. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 20:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Supreme Court reversing itself more than once

With the current Sup Ct reversing well known earlier decisions, I'm wondering if there are any that it reversed more than once. Like Lawrence v. Texas reversed some earlier decisions, but Justice Thomas proposed that the current court reverse Lawrence v. Texas, so the two reversals would cancel each other out. I'm wondering whether anything like that has actually happened. We have List of overruled United States Supreme Court decisions so maybe I try do a manual self-join, but I figure I'd miss some things, and that such incidents would be known to people into such things. I asked same question in the talk page for that list article before thinking of asking here. That's probably a better place to answer, but if necessary I can relay from here. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Guy de Maupassant

My question is fairly simple: did 19th-century French author Guy de Maupassant (1850–1893) ever write about or fictionalize a character in his work based upon Suzanne Valadon? I ask, because W. Somerset Maugham biographer Anthony Curtis (1926-2014), in his 1992 introduction to The Razor's Edge (1944), describes Maugham's character of "Suzanne Rouvier" as "straight out of Maupassant". (Curtis 1992). Prior to this, in the same introduction, Curtis describes her character using an almost identical description of the real-life Valadon, however, nowhere does he mention her name. Additionally, we know that Maupassant and Valadon were contemporaries and frequented the Chat Noir at the same time (Snow 1958). One year before Curtis wrote this new introduction, the World Wide Web went public in 1991. Mosaic popularized its usage greatly in 1993, and by 1995, Netscape unleashed the flood gates. Now, here's where things get murky: from what I can surmise, post-1995, an early website creator named "The Wanderling" read Curtis' 1992 introduction, and started promoting the idea on the web that "Suzanne Rouvier was based on Suzanne Valadon". Fast forward to 2024, and all iterations of this claim appear to trace back to "The Wanderling" and his early website. Which brings me back to my original question. What exactly did Curtis mean by Rouvier being "straight out of Maupassant"? Finally, is there any good evidence besides the website created by "The Wanderling", that Rouvier is based on Suzanne Valadon? Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Note, if anyone wants more intricate details and extended quotations from the above cited works, I have included them at Talk:Suzanne_Valadon#Re:_W._Somerset_Maugham. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

"Straight out of Maupassant" may not mean that Maupassant actually put the character in his works. It may also mean that she lives in a universe similar to that described by Maupassant (and Maupassant does describe 1880s French bourgeois society in great detail, including illicit love affairs and the demi-monde of Paris society to which Valadon belonged). It's almost certain that Maupassant would have been familiar with Valadon, as she frequented the same circles as he did, although she did not gain recognition for her art (as opposed to her modeling work) until after he was confined to an insane asylum in 1892. Given that Maupassant wrote over 300 short stories in addition to six novels, it's hard to say if Curtis is referring to a specific character. Xuxl (talk) 13:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, it means typical of the author's characters or plotlines; see also "straight from Kafka", "straight out of Dickens", "straight out of Steinbeck" and "straight out of Orwell". Alansplodge (talk) 15:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I concur, but I thought I would give it a shot.

Resolved Viriditas (talk) 18:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Novelists commonly use aspects of people they know (including themselves) for modeling their fictional characters. It is very possible that Maupassant modeled some aspect of some of his characters with Valadon in mind. Independent of what Maupassant may have done, it is also possible, and definitely not per se unlikely, that Maugham used Valadon as a model for his Suzanne Rouvier.  --Lambiam 19:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course, but we are trying to source this on the Valadon page, and all I've been able to find are circular references to "The Wanderling" web site, which was published just a few years after Curtis' introduction, hence the connection. I'm curious if anyone tried to connect Valadon with Maugham's character prior to 1992. Viriditas (talk) 20:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2

"Organization of Emerging African States"?

I'd like some decent independent WP:RS about what this org is.. They have a website, but my browser don't think I should go there. Mentioned at List of active separatist movements in Africa. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

From a quick look it seems to be an initiative created by Ebenezer Akwanga, a separatist from Cameroon who has lived in exile in Nigeria, hence probably the mention in Nigerian sources you link. Whether it is much of a movement, or just an internet platform connecting activists, I am less able to tell. Newsweek reports it is operating from the US. CMD (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Found something: Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

What letter do use use for B on an upside down calculator??

The article Calculator spelling says 8. But this page http://www.hakank.org/upside_down_number_words says 9. Who is right?? Georgia guy (talk) 21:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Uppercase “B” is 8

Lowercase “b” is 9

Blueboar (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Blueboar, that's not what the Misplaced Pages article says. It says 9 is G. Georgia guy (talk) 23:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

You do understand that you are asking for definitive answers about what is basically modern folklore? You might as well ask whether the song is actually hokey-cokey or hokey-pokey. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It may be that there is a “calculator generation” gap in play, between the blockier “font” of old calculators, and more modern ones that have a more rounded “font”. But ask anyone who was a child in the 1960s what 5319009 spelled when you turned your calculator upside down, and they knew the answer was “bOObIES”… it was the height of 6 year old humor! Blueboar (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

In the 1980s it was 5318008. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 01:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Looked at the diagram in our article… and realized that the 9 depicted there has a horizontal bar at the bottom… the calculator I had in the 60s did not. This may account for the difference in tradition. Blueboar (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Upside down, "9" turns into a "6', which in calculator spelling is a lowercase "b".  --Lambiam 08:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

A half rotation of a calculator 9 produces Б, at least on Casio and Texas Instruments models. At least in my memory, which is incredibly faulty. Folly Mox (talk) 11:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

July 4

History of pre-electricity lighting in India

I couldn't find any info on the History of pre-electricity lighting in India, Indoor Lighting, Outdoor Lighting, Street lighting, Commercial Building lighting, Royal Residence lighting, Residential lighting, the various equipment used, fuels used, historic records, illustrated historic references like engravings. 2405:201:F00B:3879:D464:2331:428A:6F4D (talk) 07:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Ordinary people often used Oil lamps, as was done in various parts of the world, though an Indian variation on the theme was that Ghee was often used in the lamp. See Diya (lamp), Nilavilakku, and Nachiarkoil lamp... AnonMoos (talk) 16:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Bombay Lights: Gas Light and the Transition to a Modern City (for access, ask at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request or you may be able to access through the The Misplaced Pages Library)

Contested nightscapes: Illuminating colonial Bombay

Alansplodge (talk) 22:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

You may also be interested in the Journal of Gas Lighting (p. 139) which has a report of an 1855 proposal by the Oriental Gas Company to install the first gas lighting in Calcutta. It points out that "public and private" exterior oil lamps in the city cost over £65,000 annually. Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Did/does India have candles? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Are bears catholic? Does the pope... nah. Try "History of Wax-Candles in India (AD 1500–1900)" (ex-jstor) or our History of candle making. MinorProphet (talk) 22:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I just wondered, because no one had mentioned something so obvious as candles. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:35, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Death by jogging at a literary conference

In this interview, at the end of 1982, Anthony Burgess mentions having been to "a big magazine conference in Puerto Rico. I had to address the audience there, and being Americans they had to begin every morning with a jog. Two people died of heart failure on this jog who were younger than I. They tried to persuade me to go along on this jog. But in the tropics? In the tropics, even at 6.30 am? Oh no. A couple of people collapsed and apparently died, at least they disappeared. Whether they’re being artificially supported somewhere I don’t know." So what was the conference and who died, or was disappeared? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The inventory of the Anthony Burgess Papers held at the Harry Ransom Center mentions, under "Index of Correspondents", "American Magazine Conference". Online sources mention an American Magazine Conference, held in October 2005 in Puerto Rico. These annual conferences were organized by the Magazine Publishers Association, founded in 1919. Perhaps an earlier installment was also held in Puerto Rico.  --Lambiam 07:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

July 5

What label can be given to John Marshall's judicial review philosophy,

Can a label as used now, like constructionism or textualism or pragmatism or "living constitution"alism or originalism be applied to John Marshall's philosophy on the U.S. Constitution? From the article on John Marshall I copied this quotation, but I'm not sure how moden labels would apply:

"To say that the intention of the instrument must prevail; that this intention must be collected from its words; that its words are to be understood in that sense in which they are generally used by those for whom the instrument was intended; that its provisions are neither to be restricted into insignificance, nor extended to objects not comprehended in them, nor contemplated by its framers—is to repeat what has been already said more at large, and is all that can be necessary."

Rich (talk) 04:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

To me, this sounds like words spoken by an originalist. Marshall may at the same time have been a strict constructionist; the quotation does not speak to this question.  --Lambiam 06:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Has the goddess Saraswati ever been nicknamed Svati before?

Over a month ago, I came across a web series called Ghee Happy which portrayed characters based on Hindu deities. The theme song describes the four protagonists (who are depicted as schoolchildren) as follows:

Ganesha! He likes to eat!
Ganesha: Sweet!
Kali! She likes to scare!
Kali:
Krishna! He likes to play!
Krishna: All day!
Saraswati, super smart!
Saraswati: I like music, books and art. My friends call me Swati!

However, I've found out that in a Hindu context, Svati usually refers to either one of the wives of the Moon or the nakshatra associated with Arcturus, so I believe the "my friends call me Swati" part of the theme song may have just been one of the artistic liberties taken by the producers. (along with Kartikeya being Ganesha's big brother, Dvaraka being held up by balloons, and Ravana being 3 years old in Krishna's time, to name a few other examples) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

July 6

Slave ship Lawrence

There's an article in today's Wall Street Journal regarding a controversy over the Clotilda, supposedly the last slave ship to reach the United States, in around 1859-60. A historian, Erik Calonius, claims that the slave voyage was a hoax, and the last slaver to reach the US was actually the Wanderer in 1858.

Our article on the Clotilda does not mention the controversy, which may be fair enough; Calonius himself seems to acknowledge that this is the standard narrative and it wasn't clear to me from the article how much traction the theory has gotten in the historian community.

But one point caught my eye: The article says that Booker T. Washington claimed that the last slave ship to reach Mobile, Alabama was the Lawrence, in 1862 (later than both the above dates). I can't find the Lawrence in our list of slave ships, and my Googling has not turned up much. Does anyone know anything about this Lawrence? --Trovatore (talk) 19:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

People exist today directly descended from both Clotilda slaves and Clotilda enslavers, so I don't really understand how anyone who's watched The Order of Myths could think it's a hoax... AnonMoos (talk) 20:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The article goes into some detail (not a lot, but some) on Calonius's reasons for thinking it was a hoax. I'm not qualified to evaluate that aspect of it, at least not without a lot more work than I actually plan to put into it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The Story of Slavery p. 17. It might be worth investigating Cornelia Lawrence 1854 New York for Lawrence, Giles & Co. She apparently hauled passengers Liverpool to New York but burned 2 Nov. 1858 in Mobile Bay under mysterious circumstance while carrying a cargo of hay? Pretty thin tho. fiveby(zero) 02:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oops article is referring to Washington in ‘’The Story of the Negro’’ p. 104 Two different stories and each seems unlikely. fiveby(zero) 03:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, 5/0. While Washington makes an unqualified claim that slaves were landed in 1862, it's surrounded by various "It is said" and "I have been told" kind of anecdotes, so I agree this doesn't seem like much to go on. --Trovatore (talk) 05:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

July 8

Haruspex

The earlier discussion here about auguries from intestines brought back a vague memory of a haruspex finding an appalling sign (deformity/wormy) but the people pressing ahead with the significant project nonetheless, only to end in disaster. I've been Googling for it without luck, probably because I can't remember if it's the Romans or some other ancient people, and I can't remember if it was for a battle or something else. Does this ring a bell with anyone? It's also entirely possible I read it in fiction! --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

This book seems to have a few pointers in that general direction (p. 112), maybe your episode is covered there? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

We have articles on Omen (ancient Rome), Augury, and Augur, but only a relatively generic aticle on Haruspex. -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

July 9

A sudden shock, and London is changed to the Antipodes

I am reading "A Fragment of Life" by Arthur Machen. Darnell, who is (or thinks he is) a clerk in the City, "was indeed almost in the position of the man in the tale, who, by a sudden electric shock, lost the vision of the things about him in the London streets, and gazed instead upon the sea and shore of an island in the Antipodes". What is the tale that the man was in? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, but I hope it's not excessively pedantic to point out that the literal 180° antipodes of the great majority of land on earth (including London) is deep ocean, as can be seen in File:Antipodes LAEA.png etc... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Israel-Hamas War article

Why doesn't the "Israel-Hamas War" article mention the estimated number of Palestinians who've fled Gaza to Egypt during the war? According to Reuters - it's around 100,000 people.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-embassy-seeks-temporary-status-gazans-who-entered-egypt-during-war-2024-05-02/

Also, the Misplaced Pages article doesn't mention the fact that Palestinian refugees are charged thousands of dollars by Egyptians to cross the border.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/jan/08/palestinians-flee-gaza-rafah-egypt-border-bribes-to-brokers

Thanks. 46.121.212.58 (talk) 01:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Feel like questions that should be asked of the editors on that article. --Golbez (talk) 02:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

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