Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sean.hoyland (talk | contribs) at 11:19, 10 June 2011 (→Persecution of socks). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

Template:Archive box collapsible

Pally Pictures

I'm user 132. That account was banned for a period of time. That period of time is over. I'll use this named account and try my best to be a good member of the community. It is a scientific word for otter. Isn't that cute?

The three pictures on Palestinian people were removed by me, 132, after I posted a talk page comment about them. No one objected to my reasoning that the pictures are poorly captioned, misleading, and appeal to emotional politics on a page already plagued by controversy. There is also enough pics already.

Ohiostandard recently put the pics back in without explanation.

So, what I did was undo Ohiostandard's undoing of a good faith edit that was not contested on the talk page.

Why did you undo?Lutrinae (talk) 18:25, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Unexplained content removal in the I-P topic area results in me automatically reverting generally speaking, especially in areas prone to cultural genocide and efforts to produce an article without a people. :) Just put a note of the article talk page with your new user id and someone will pick up the discussion. I'll try to join if I have time at some point. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:30, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'll start a talk tread. But please note that I explained my edit with the words "Removed three pictures of an extraneous nature." That explains why I removed the pics, they were extraneous.

Extraneousness means excessiveness. Lutrinae (talk) 18:40, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Yep, I saw that and I thought it was you, hence my deja vu comment, but it was a bit vague and I couldn't be sure. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:43, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

You thought the explanation was vague, so you ignored good faith and deleted it anyway... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.160.54.156 (talk) 23:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct. When all of the sockpuppets have gone and the agenda driven editors lay down their arms I'll switch to the nice guy/assume good faith mode. It's nothing personal. I vaguely remember agreeing with some of your suggested image removals. I'll try to have another look. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:18, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Dont accuse me of sockpuppetry. I have made no attempt to deceive.

The user who constantly posted Nazi crap on the Pally people article wasn't me, but banned at the same time. I think that was the only "evidence" used against me.

Anyway, bygones and we'll see how we can make some encyclopedic, NPOV I-P articles. Or does that area not interest you? Lutrinae (talk) 04:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I didn't accuse you of anything, I was commenting on the topic area in general and its unfortunate effects on my approach, but if you see any editors that you suspect are sockpuppets please let me know. Am I interested in making I-P articles NPOV ? Not much, there are more interesting things to work on here, but I try to keep an eye on things. I'm not going to revert your edit. I'll try to get over there at some point. Other editors will probably comment before me. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:09, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, I don't think your IP was "banned for a period of time" was it ? I think the article was semiprotected for a while because of edit warring or something, I forget. (see WP:SILVERLOCK) Sean.hoyland - talk 05:44, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you were write about the silverlock, but I hope you understand that I was often threatened with bans by people unwilling to be civil and talk. If you don't have the time for I-P conflict, then leave it alone. I don't think you are helping by removing material you don't like and replacing it with bias material you DO like. Lutrinae (talk) 19:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Persecution of socks

First let me say I sympathize with you over your frustration regarding sockpuppets invading Misplaced Pages articles and Talk pages. They consume valuable resources and get in the way of the Project. In one case I even took it personally when it was discovered that an editor whose contributions I appreciated was a sock. So your comment here, which on one level is comical in a way, is poignantly true and sad. That being said, though, and recognizing that you've developed a far keener sense of sockpuppetry detection than I have, I do wonder if comments like this one are appropriate. Again, I hate to be in the position of defending a sock – and in fact I'm not defending him or any other sock – but the principle of innocent until proven guilty should apply to Misplaced Pages no less than it does in Western justice systems. You could have at least waited for a formal conviction of the IP before launching into a personal attack like that. (And even after the conviction, I question whether a personal attack can be considered a positive contribution to a discussion.) Part of me wants to take this to AN/I just to get input from the powers-that-be, because I haven't been able to find a clear policy that addresses these things. There's also the matter of editing another user's Talk page that's a problem, e.g. here. It's my understanding that a user's Talk page is essentially his own private property. Basically it comes down to whether a sock is allowed to be personally attacked – whether prior to, pending, or after his conviction – and whether his contributions can be treated as the equivalent of vandalism. At least this comment would seem to indicate that the answer is no.—Biosketch (talk) 09:44, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Are you accusing me of anti-sockpuppetism ? Isn't that a personal attack...or does a word have to actually exist before it can be a personal attack...hard to tell. I knew it was him based on data I have about his MO. There was no doubt or ambiguity or else I wouldn't have commented. I'm not a psychic. My day to day work involves things that are orders of magnitude more complex and risk prone than reliably identifying this editor's signal from the wiki-noise. Misplaced Pages isn't run by admins and I don't have to wait for permission via formal rulings by anyone before I say anything or for validation of my statements. Sockpuppets can't be here and they can't do or say anything. There are objective reasons why the descriptive terms I used are justified. A person who has been proven repeatedly to lie is a liar, a person who compulsively does something is compulsive, a person who sociopathically fails to distinguish between right and wrong is unethical. These are objective statements with a large amount of empirical evidence to support them for anyone familiar with this editor. They are not personal attacks, they are entirely accurate evidence based statements. I could use other terms too, some of them would even be positive, but I find it particularly sickening and way over the line that this person has even cynically exploited the restriction of basic human rights in the form of free access to information in parts of the world to try to lie their way out of blocks and justify the use of anonimizing proxies before. I have nothing but contempt for this kind of sociopathic behavior and I do what I can to eliminate it from the project and confront users with the reality of what they are doing in the hope that one day they will wake up, stop, think, and find an alternative approach such as the cleanstart process (which no one seems to want to use preferring instead to continue using deception for reasons I genuinely cannot comprehend). You can't honestly expect me to take you seriously about striking out banned editors comments on Nableezy's page or anywhere else for that matter ? I mean, come on. If Nableezy has a problem with me editing his page he will tell me openly and honestly, possibly using the words "fuck" and "off", which would be fine by me. You can take it to AN/I or anywhere else for clarfication but if the outcome gets in the way of confronting dishonest editors who blatantly and repeatedly break the rules, removing the effects of their presence and eliminating sockpuppetry I won't comply with it. I'll have to be blocked first. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:00, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

See, told you so. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

See also here, which was started by (suppress giggle) a sock of a banned account. WP:BAN also allows for the removal of any edits by a banned user. Sean, if it were necessary, and it isnt, you have my permission to remove or strike any comment made by a sock on my talk page. I was tempted to not say anything here in the hopes a user would actually take this to ANI as that would have been hilarious. nableezy - 12:22, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

As if to show that life sometimes imitates art, someone has. Would you cocoa it? RolandR (talk) 09:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen that "Striking or deleting sockpuppet contributions" thread before... unbelievable. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I too share your frustration at the disruption caused by sockpuppets; especially the serial sockpuppetry we have seen in the I/P area: I have commented on another talk page about this. We need to find a more efficient way of dealing with this, and of protecting the many decent editors who have been sanctioned after being targeted by socks. Meanwhile, I have just submitted an SPI on yet more Ledenierhomme socks. This abuse seems endless. RolandR (talk) 18:22, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Yep, the 93.91.196.xxx IPs were covered by a rangeblock but it expired earlier today. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

( ← outdenting ) We especially need to find some way to deal with the problem of what I call "drive-by/short-term" socks. These are the accounts that show up for a few days, not necessarily consecutive days, make a batch of reverts, and are gone again, presumably on to the next account. The goal appears to be to force established users to "burn" 1rr edits, and it's pretty effective. When such accounts obviously represent experienced users there's no reason we should have to try to figure out whose sock they are in order to put a halt to their disruption.

They don't leave enough behavioral evidence behind, since they just edit for a short interval, and some, at least, seem to be sophisticated enough to evade checkuser detection. This problem will sink any pretense of NPOV in the I/P area if it's not resolved. Is there any comprehensive remedy anyone can suggest that has a chance of actual implementation?  – OhioStandard (talk) 01:01, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I think default semi-protection of i/p articles is worth discussing. Zero 02:58, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

@Sean.hoyland (talk · contribs), "Anti-puppetism"? I can see how that might be funny, or offensive, but no. The issue is not whether a given sockpuppet is a liar or a cheat. Some of the users I've interacted with here are certified hypocrites and utter morons – but the point is that, much as I'd like to sometimes, I can't tell them so. WP:NPA explicitly forbids it, and for good reason. Indeed, that policy authorizes my reverting your comment to the sock at Nableezy's Talk page, per "Derogatory comments about another contributor may be removed by any editor." Whether or not Misplaced Pages is run by Admins, I don't know. But it is run by policies and guidelines, and they are meant to apply to everyone equally. Personal attacks, regardless of whom they're directed at or under what circumstances, do not belong in the Project.

Edited to add: Those are my feelings on the topic. The AN/I started to discuss this where it can get more authoritative input is here. We'll see if the Admins consider it as silly an issue as Nableezy (talk · contribs) is convinced it is.—Biosketch (talk) 06:10, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Hows that working out for you? You ever notice how nobody complains that socks on the "P-side", however rare they are in comparison to the dedicated people socking to support the Greatest State on Earth, are treated poorly, or cries when their comments are struck out or their edits reverted? I wonder why that is. nableezy - 12:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you see for yourself? Everyone's cracking up laughing, people's bladders are exploding. It's the comedy event of the year – just like you said it would be. I hope you're not offended I didn't leave an invitation on your Talk page. Oh wait, you're asking about my ANI, right? I thought we were talking about something else. Well the ANI is even more informative than I had anticipated. A variety of contributors are sharing their interpretation of Misplaced Pages's policies in relation to the issue raised, stressing the pernicious effect sockpuppets have on the Project but also acknowledging how important WP:NPA is to maintaining a healthy environment for editors to work in. The discussion is even civil and serious, to boot. I'm truly sorry if it disappoints you to hear that.

No, I haven't noticed how nobody ever complains about the "P-side." But I'm glad to see you surrounded that expression with scare quotes, suggesting you don't accept it as a true representation of reality, because it presupposes a dichotomy I don't consider myself a part of. Yes, when it comes to our language and our content disputes and our ad hominem insinuations on Discussion pages, the simplest thing to do is to label an editor "pro-P" and "pro-I" and then draw a host of conclusions from there. Would it surprise you to know that I am both pro-I and pro-P? or is such an idea repugnant to the very fiber of your being? Actually, I honestly don't care one way or the other what you think. Really all I care about is that the contributors I collaborate with follow the rules and dedicate themselves to building a reliable, neutral and eloquent encyclopedia. If you're committed to that vision, ahlan wasahlan. But if it's winning political battles that motivates you, which I regret to say is my impression from the brief time our edit histories overlapped prior to your being sanctioned, and from your seeming inability to edit any Misplaced Pages articles not related to the Arab-Israeli conflict ever since you were sanctioned, then you'll have earned yourself a place on my Naughty list, to borrow a useful expression from our colleague and gracious host Sean.hoyland. And you will lose. Again.—Biosketch (talk) 04:34, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

A dichotomy that you dont consider yourself a part of? Really? So there is a reason you brought SD to AE for including the Golan in Syria and not Reenem for repeatedly including it in Israel, or reverting edits by that user that purposely distort the cited sources? Really? You think you are "pro-I" and "pro-P"? That is awesome, Im proud of you. Well, perhaps I shouldnt lie, much like you feel about me I dont care what you think. I judge you by your actions, and of those actions I have seen enough that I think I am reasonable in putting you squarely on one side determined to, oh lets go with your phrasing, "win political battles". My inability to edit any articles? Who wrote this, adding more material from quality sources to an article in a few days during my topic ban than either the editor who wrote the above or below comments have added to all articles in the past month? Next time, think before you speak and make sure that you arent showing yourself to be ignorant of the facts. I will "lose"? That is interesting. Stupid, but interesting. I wont waste any effort with the below, too much time has already been wasted attempting to get that "editor" to understand basic facts. But for the ANI, that "variety of contributors", they all said there as no issue here, right? That the responses by Sean and SD were "standard", right? Just wanted to make sure I was looking at the right discussion, because the one I see does not seem all that informative. Silly, in that somebody actually thought that this was something to bring to ANI, but not informative. nableezy - 12:09, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Minimal editing while topic banned from articles but still taking every opportunity to throw mud on talk pages. Let the battle continue I suppose.Cptnono (talk) 04:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Cptnono - where's the "Like" button???????? Soosim (talk) 12:52, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there is a reason I brought Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs) to AE and not User:Reenem. Are you genuinely interested in knowing it or were you asking a purely rhetorical question? If it's the former, I strongly urge you to moderate your tone, as it encourages confrontation, not cooperation. If it's the latter, then it confirms that your underlying objective throughout this dialog has been to provoke my emotions rather than engage me intellectually. While we're at it, I also strongly urge you, the next time you're debating with yourself, as in your last comment, whether or not to lie, that you not debate at all and simply tell the truth. I sincerely hope this is not a dilemma you're faced with often when you contribute here.

You made valuable contributions to one article in the space of...how long ago were you topic-banned? a month? During that month, I and the other editor – whose name you appear to have some difficulty articulating – have made notable contributions to literally dozens of articles. One of us even created a new biographical article, and the other received a Tireless Contributor barnstar from a senior Wikimedia Foundation volunteer. Not that this is a competition, mind you; but it does reflect better on an editor when he's not obsessed with one tiny area of the Project.

You can continue trying to argue that the ANI is "hilarious" and "silly" if you think it makes you look prettier in the mirror. Meanwhile, here are some facts to ponder. Number of chuckles: 0; number of giggles: 0; number of snickers: 0; number of guffaws: 0. That's eight contributors total, none of whom laughed, and all of whom took the time to respond in earnest to my inquiry. I got what I wanted from the ANI. Clearly you, however, did not.—Biosketch (talk) 09:46, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Bear in mind that humour is a very personal and complicated business. Take Vince Fluke's case for example, "So I was watching The Great Dictator with Charlie Chaplin. Turns out I was watching actual footage of Hitler. What the hell was I laughing at?" Sean.hoyland - talk 10:04, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

No, I am not asking you to answer my question, I already know the answer. The rest of your comment is best left alone, as I often have trouble replying to comments of such, ahem, quality (try to guess if I mean that, or if I am debating with myself on whether or not to tell the truth). As far as ANI goes, no, I got what I wanted. Every single person dismissed your complaint as lacking substance. And I laughed. Everybody wins, well, except you. I think this is where you tell me that I will lose and I giggle. Bye. nableezy - 12:14, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Um...every single person dismissed my complaint as lacking substance? You're sure about that? Evidently, replying to comments of quality isn't foremost among the things you have trouble with. It's really a shame that in those debates of yours between telling the truth and not, the truth is so often on the losing side. Bye bye now.—Biosketch (talk) 02:16, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Really, youre going this route? You do know that nearly everything on Misplaced Pages can be linked to, right? Lets see, the discussion, archived here, began with you seeking comment as to whether three diffs relating to socks of banned users were "inappropriate", those three diffs being , , and . You called the last a "personal attack". The following users commented in the discussion: Atlan, Sean, DeCausa, Cptnono, Errant, Nick-D (those two being admins) and Baseball Bugs. I generally ignore what one of those "editors" has to say about conduct, so forgive me for forgetting him in my "everybody" comment above. But of the others, Atlan said that they would do the same as the first two diffs and that the third was not a "personal attack", DeCausa made a general query and did not really address the topic under discussion, Errant said nothing was "problematic" and that these are "normal responses to socks", Nick-D agreed with Errant, and Baseball Bugs said if the user is banned the material may be removed on sight, per a link you should have been already familiar with as I posted it in my first comment in this section. Cptnono was the only person to find fault with any one of the diffs, but said nothing about the other two, saying Sean should not have made the comment. But, again, I usually ignore some peoples opinion on proper conduct and given that nobody else saw anything wrong with Sean's comment I see no reason to all of a sudden start paying attention. So it may not be "every single person" that found your complaint in lacking in substance as one person saw some substance in roughly 1/3rd of your complaint, but "every single person" not involved in the topic area, and "every single" administrator that commented. And yes, "every single person" saw no problem with the first two of what you called "inappropriate". nableezy - 03:58, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Come on, wouldn't it have been easier to just say, "Oops, my mistake" instead of going through that long, drawn-out, cop-out of a speech? You messed up. It happens. I'm not gonna tease you about it. Just give me some of those kittens or bouquet of flowers or whatever it is you're supposed to give me now and we can move on.—Biosketch (talk) 07:07, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

As fun as this has been, let's not lose sight of what's important. 1) You misidentified something as a personal attack and inappropriate when it wasn't and you misunderstood the procedures for dealing with sockpuppets of blocked and/or banned users. That's fine. Now you know. 2) Nableezy is one of the key resources Misplaced Pages has in dealing with people who persistently violate WP:SOCK. If everyone became vigilant and active in confronting sockpuppetry and trying to find a solution, the topic area would be a far better place. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:19, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Frieda Hughes Elevation.png

Thanks for uploading File:Frieda Hughes Elevation.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I have restored it to the article. The fair use rationale is legitimate and uncontroversial in my view so I do not support the IP's removal of the image from the infobox. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Use of reflist template on talk pages

Hi Sean. I noticed that when you posted to a talk page to create this section that since the text you copypasted from the corresponding article included ref tags, you also added {{reflist}} to your post, to make the embedded refs appear on the talk page. Someone, I didn't see who, removed that reflist templagte subsequently, I also noticed, presumably because it was "capturing" and displaying all the references on the talk page, including those present in other, unrelated sections.

There's a way around this, as I saw from the documentation at Template:Reflist#Multiple_uses, which says,

If {{Reflist}} is used multiple times without a parameter, each instance will include all of the previously defined references. To force the parser to close previous references, each use of {{Reflist}} must be forced as a new instance by the use of any parameter. Even an undefined parameter such as {{Reflist|close=1}} will force the references to close.

I usually use the construct {{reflist|local=yes}} myself, "local" being a made up parameter name, but {{Reflist|sockpuppets=stinky}} might be an alternative you'd reasonably prefer. I might start using it myself, actually.

This only works, though, this "localization" of references, if everyone on a talk page uses it; I've asked Tiamut to have a look at this thread, too, since the references jumble that I've now corrected on Talk:Palestinian people was also contributed to by her posting text that contained ref tags. In her case, at least in a couple of sections, anyway, she didn't include a reflist template at all. But her refs were showing up in other sections that did.

Also, I wanted to mention that I've left several comments for you in this thread, and to ask whether you think requesting full protection and then editprotected might be an appropriate response to this whole mess? I'm not happy about the exclusion of any criticism from that article, its removal to different articles, when, as you rightly observed, the Hamas article is so awash with criticism, including having a section specifically devoted to it. Thanks,  – OhioStandard (talk) 14:40, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Won't open a new section for it, but scroll down in diff for a look at another POV removal of evidently well-sourced material, an entire section. This is our friend, Lutrinae, of course, in a previous IP incarnation.  – OhioStandard (talk) 16:02, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that someone who removed the second reflist was me precisely for the reasons you describe. I had no idea about that solution so many thanks for that.

Yes, 132./Lutrinae is a seriously problematic editor, exactly the kind of editor the sanctions are designed to keep under control I think. The blatantly and demonstrably false accusations he keeps making about me and the source are hilarious. I don't know what he's playing at. He can say whatever he likes to me, I don't care, but he can't act like that in the topic area. He's a textbook example of the other non-socky major problem in the topic area, tendentious and disruptive behavior in terms of both content edits and talk page usage with a bit of WP:COMPETENCE thrown in. I warned him what would happen. The only reason I haven't filed an AE report yet is limited time as they take a while to prepare. It would be a shame to have to fully protect the article just because of one editor.

As for the IDF article, I'm at a loss there. It's very difficult to get people to try to be more objective and rational about these kind of issues. Owain is or at least was probably pushing a bit too hard. It seems like the kind of situation where the best thing to do might be for everyone to stop editing the article and try to build the content on the talk page. It won't be easy. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:44, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I should add for good measure that what is particularly ironic about the Lutrinae disruption is that the issue of the origins of the Palestinain identity has been a problem in that article for ages. It's something I know nothing about and don't care about in the slightest. However, I made a special effort to try to resolve it once and for all by finding high quality sources and adding the content in the hope that it would end the problems. Exactly the opposite happened. Marvelous. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for these comments. Your last one made me chuckle, knowingly. How very cute of you to think that high quality sources would be of any interest. ;-) Re Owain, yes; I e-mailed him about pushing versus more productive possibilities. I'm going to think about it a bit, too, the IDF article; I'll probably ping you, if that's alright, if I move ahead with that in any way. Also, I'll need to learn how to file an AE request myself at some point; I write very slowly, though, and it would take me probably a full eight hours the first time I tried. I just can't allocate that kind of time right now, but I promise I'll learn the process sometime soon. You're welcome re the reflist thing; I just discovered that a couple months ago, myself, and thought it was pretty cool. Best,  – OhioStandard (talk) 21:05, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

FYI

Hope you have your frige with exotic tropical juices at your disposal to deal with summer heat. Feel free to comment here if you feel like it. Your experienced opinion is welcome. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:08, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

After Poyani registered, he was asked about previous accounts because his behaved like an experienced user. If Poyani and and Owain are the same person, he's doing a remarkably good job of acting like a new user with the Owain account.     ←   ZScarpia   02:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I'll try to have a look at the editing patterns today. I'm not familiar with Poyani. It would be good it we could get to the point where nobody minds having an SPI report filed about their account...for the sake of the project and all that. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:04, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Superficially at least it seems unlikely that Owain, who strikes me a someone who shows many aspects of being British (probably from Wales), is the same as Poyan who appears to be Iranian. Poyan could have had a previous/alternative accounts/IPs, not sure yet, and an SPI report could be justified, not sure yet, but I don't think Owain would be the account I would put in the report. As for the weather here, it's been raining lot which is bloody excellent...even though it slightly flooded the house...twice. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Have a look?

Hi, Sean. I've posted here to RolandR's talk page about our joint adventure at AE recently. We need to find a venue where requests for wp:scrutiny disclosures to (some appropriately selected group of?) admins are welcome, rather than being treated, most improperly, in my opinion, as some kind of harassment. SPI isn't such a venue, and perhaps AE isn't, either, or maybe that was just AGK's view. Anyway, I'd welcome your thoughts on the matter, at RolandR's page. Best,  – OhioStandard (talk) 02:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Will do a bit later. I can understand AGK's desire to keep the AE page clean (although I don't necessarily agree with it in that case) but since AGK processed my recent AE report so very efficiently he has most helpful admin of week status for me. This probably degrades my objectivity. :) Sean.hoyland - talk 02:53, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I can too. I certainly shouldn't have responded to my follower; that was dumb. But if we're not to be allowed to ask at AE for wp:scrutiny disclosure of prior accounts to some trusted group, when a new account is in use by so obviously experienced an editor, I don't know where we can ask. Re "helpful admin status", though, I'm afraid this has rather sunk his prospects for my vote. Anyway, good on you for that report; thanks for filing it, and look forward to hearing your thoughts on scrutiny disclosures being required in such cases.  – OhioStandard (talk) 05:17, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Btselem

did you read my source from the JPOST which legitimised my edit saying that they considered it an extreme left wing organisation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bouklyloo (talk • contribs) 11:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I did. I also searched for "left" and "ext". Please could you paste the sentence in the source that says "extreme left wing" here on my page so I can verify it ? Here's the source you cited to save you time looking . Thanks. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Does an article need to say such a thing for it to be understood that way? In no way does an article regarding any organisations which it considers extreme, for example the Taliban, Hamas, al-Qaeda..., need to state it. Same thing here, we see from the overwhelming evidence that the JPOST considers it to be an extreme left wing organisation.Bouklyloo (talk) 11:42, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for horning in on your chat with Sean. Yes, in order to quote a source as saying something, the source has to actually say it, not merely suggest it. And even if the cited article had said B'Tselem was "extreme left wing" it would not be allowable, because it is an opinion column. I can cite plenty of opinion columns that call the Post "extreme left wing". But I don't because it is against the rules, and also because it is stupid.

Finally, all this labeling of this or that group as "left-wing" or "extreme left wing" is just pablum. Avigdor Lieberman has called for a parliamentary investigation into the organization, charging that it weakens Tsahal and supports terrorism. And you want to call it "left-wing"??? Weak, very weak. I have juiced up the quotes in the lead. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 12:49, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not me that calls in left wing, I call it anti-Israel... I don't get it why you refuse to put it up when thats what a lot of people would say. Many people consider Btselem to be an extreme left wing organisation and so does this article. If you don't want to say that jpost considers it extreme because its an opinion poll then let the author of the article be it. She is quiet high and many people would agree with her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bouklyloo (talk • contribs) 13:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Sean and Ravpapa are right, you can't invent your own labels on the basis of what you think someone means, only on the basis of what they actually say. In any case, even if the article did use the description "extreme left" you could only report it as the opinion of Caroline Glick, not as the opinion of JP. And that would look rather funny, since everyone knows that Ghengis Khan looks extreme left from where Caroline Glick sits. Zero 14:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not inventing, its self evident! Caroline Glick is not some random opinion poll writer. She reflects the view of the JPOST or else she wouldn't be so high in the organisation itself and had the article been so controversial, it would have had a response which it didn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bouklyloo (talk • contribs) 14:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Please could you familiarise yourself with key policies such as WP:V, WP:OR, guidelines such as WP:WTA and ensure that you comply with WP:NPOV at all times before you edit in a contentious topic area about a real-world conflict. You should also read about the discretionary sanctions that apply to the B'Tselem article and many others. Compliance with policy and the discretionary sanctions is absolutely mandatory and non-negotiable. Please don't add any more content to articles covered by the sanctions because you regard it as "self evident". Sean.hoyland - talk 14:40, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how in anyway what you have just said made the argument move forward. I don't see how any of what I have posted goes against these rules and I think that it's pretty arogant of you to try to stop the debate by doing so. Now please explain why you will not have JP listing B'tselem as extreme left when Caroline Glick is very high within? It is absolutely evident that from such an article we see that JP takes B'tselem as extreme left.Bouklyloo (talk) 15:01, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a debate or a negotiation. Read the policies, guidelines, and the sanctions. Start with the very first sentence of WP:V. They explain everything you need to know. You then simply need to comply with them. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I told you I had but you still haven't answered my question so please do so... Any reader who reads the article would see the views it is trying to express are clear and reflex what I am trying to put on.Bouklyloo (talk) 15:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

If you don't understand how the sentence "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true" means that you can't use that source to describe B'Tselem as "extreme left wing", a description that does not appear in the source, I can't help you. Misplaced Pages content must be based on what sources actually say. The statement "Any reader who reads the article would see..." etc is a bare assertion fallacy. There is a Misplaced Pages:New contributors' help page. Perhaps they can help you gain a better understanding of policy. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:57, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Does the article need to say in big bold letter "B'tselem is extreme left" for it to be understood? Just the opening sentences makes it clear what stance it is taking on the matter. "The time has come to determine just how “Israeli” these organisations that form such a big part of the int'l political war against Israel are." If you would have read the article you would also have come across this sentence: "Moreover, B’Tselem and its fellow-NIF grantees provided 92 percent of the anti-Israel allegations originating from Israeli sources." If you would imply some basic english writing skills you would realise that she is clearly stating, in an undertone, that B'tselem is extreme. Is it not extreme to provide 92% of all anti-Israel allegations? It is not me that believes this, it is the basic english writing methods that she is using to get her point across who imply it.Bouklyloo (talk) 04:26, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it does need to actually say "extreme left wing" as you have been told several times now. You simply need to accept that as a basic rule that is documented by the WP:V policy. As I said, this isn't a negotiation or a discussion about whether the source may or may not have meant X when they didn't say X. Regarding "It is not me that believes this", yes it is, it's you, it's your personal interpretation of a source and I suggest you try to imagine what would happen to article content if everyone did that. It's important that you understand this basic point or else you will find it very difficult to contribute to the encyclopedia because your contributions will be reverted as WP:V policy violations. I should also add that a WP:V policy violation is not a trivial and unimportant thing in Misplaced Pages. Editors are routinely blocked or topic banned for these kind of policy violations if they make them repeatedly, particularly in topic areas covered by sanctions. Just stick to what sources actually say and be sure to carefully read the policies and guidelines if you plan to contribute to contentious topic areas. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Seeing that according to you it does need to actually say it and that I am somehow interpreting then it will not be put on and I will stop here. However I still do not understand how this goes against the policy. She is trying to get this point across and it would be ridicule to think that she isn't implying what I've been trying to say. This is not an interpretation or a discussion it is a fact.Bouklyloo (talk) 05:34, 10 June 2011 (UTC)